Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[kingfisher]

Sure it's simple and neat but it's also a HUGE nerf to anyone who wants to multiclass because right now on my Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 I have 100% access to the enhancements of all 3 classes up to the level gate of each now with the newly suggested system I'll only have access to 1/3 of that because I'll only be able to choose 3/9 PrEs. I really don't know how any can't see that...it's fairly cut and dry


The plan is for any build with any kind of creativity that involves a deep splash to be nerfed to oblivion.

You will comply, it's what Turbine wants.

these are exactly correct, if implemented as they first rolled it out with the stupid ****ing tree limit its a massive nerf to multi's and to the people who have played this game the longest. its a clear concession to the wow crowd and the prerequisite pidgeonholing that comes with them. it has economic reasons as well, if all classes must spend money to respec thats a win for turbine. if pure is now the only way to fly and to gain any uniqueness at all you will have to max out multiple ed's and grind out points for twisting, then thats another huge win and moneymaker for turbine. we already know that they do not care about old money, only about new money, so is it any surprise that they would continue to nerf the old and make it nice and boring for the new people? and **** them for doing it, if they do actually follow through with this idiotic tree limit. although they have delayed it quite a while now, so perhaps there is still a chance that wiser heads prevail. we will see. its pretty clear that there is a huge part of the playerbase that is 100% against the tree limit.

if the new turbine was a rock band they would be lip synching from a teleprompter during concerts cause their 'fans' wanted it to sound like it did on the radio.

[Siro]

Sure it's simple and neat but it's also a HUGE nerf to anyone who wants to multiclass because right now on my Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 I have 100% access to the enhancements of all 3 classes up to the level gate of each now with the newly suggested system I'll only have access to 1/3 of that because I'll only be able to choose 3/9 PrEs. I really don't know how any can't see that...it's fairly cut and dry

How is it a nerf? You can have 3 PREs now, plus racial stuff and you'll be able to have 3 PREs after, plus racial stuff.

[realism]

Quit screwing our characters ddo, it's not fair and it's. It fun to have to remake our toons every 6 months now. Stop touching and breaking things

[kingfisher]

How is it a nerf? You can have 3 PREs now, plus racial stuff and you'll be able to have 3 PREs after, plus racial stuff.

its clearly a nerf because right now if you have 3 classes you can use parts of up to 9 different 'trees' depending on how many your chosen classes offer. after this change you would only be able to use parts of 3. that's a nerf of 60% of a multi's enhancement versatility.

the addition racial pre slot is a different animal entirely.

this has all been explained before, but think about a multi class bard who wants to boost his songs (1 tree), his healing spells(1 tree), his sonic damage (1 tree), his toughness (1 tree from a fighter splash), and his trap skills (1 tree from a rogue splash), thats 5, so 2 have to go, severely gimping the toon.

or a pally/fighter/monk tank. totally hosed. this one was broken down at length 100 pages or so ago.

or ANY multiclass ranger. any. the FE enhancements are in the freaking deepwoods sniper tree, so a melee multi ranger will have to select a ranged tree just to get his core class enhancements. losing out on the barb, fighter, rogue or monk trees he splashed to get access to.

or how about all of those crazy great creative monk builds out there? all of them will be borked, cause the stances will be split between trees.

its a nerf.

edit; the limit of 3 pre's themselves is not the problem, its lumping all the core class enhancements into pre trees, and then limiting those trees, that is the problem.

[Scraap]

How is it a nerf? You can have 3 PREs now, plus racial stuff and you'll be able to have 3 PREs after, plus racial stuff.

Not sure I'd call it a nerf, so much as a hit to granularity via ancillary benefits, at least regarding the enhancements classes get for being themselves as opposed to a specific PRE.

We already see that with the lock-ins to 6/12/18s. Should a rewrite essentially lock that down harder, or should we encourage them to take a look at the side-effects of that for more flexibility?

[Arlathen]

I live in complete fear of the Enhancement update.

I believe its going to quite easily tear apart most of my multiclass character designs, and make multi-class characters of the future far, far harder to the level of cross-class synergies I aim for.

Character building in DDO truly is one of the aspects I most enjoy about the game. In fact its probably the greatest enjoyment of the game, theorybuilding for days (weeks?) over my next build until I feel its got just the right balance.

:|

[Ape_Man]

edit; the limit of 3 pre's themselves is not the problem, its lumping all the core class enhancements into pre trees, and then limiting those trees, that is the problem.

I guess a "core" tree could work . . . but it's kinda going against what Turbine was originally talking about where much of the PRE benefits are gained for free by buying new enhancements.

We really need to see more of what Turbine has in mind before we can get an accurate picture of how bad/good it will be.

[kingfisher]

I guess a "core" tree could work . . . but it's kinda going against what Turbine was originally talking about where much of the PRE benefits are gained for free by buying new enhancements.

We really need to see more of what Turbine has in mind before we can get an accurate picture of how bad/good it will be.

a 'general' tree for each taken class was suggested and rejected on the same grounds very early in the process. too complicated and confusing for new players was the company line i believe. funny to think about after sifting through the ED's.

yeah its possible that they have seen the light and the next time info is released they will have found a balance. but your not gonna hold your breath now are you?

@arlathen yep the character customization is right up there with the active combat and the DnD base as far as why ddo stands out in comparison to other MMO's; and to why ddo has the staying power it does. why they would ever **** with any of these 3 things is beyond me.

[emptysands]

Is there going to be a beta release to Lam before it hits live? Is August still the target date for U15+enhancements release?

[slimkj]

One would assume so, this is easily as big an impact on the game as the expansion was, if not more.

I take heart from EDs, and the way they were implemented. I also take heart from the fact it has been postponed, so some of the issues raised could be looked at (not saying they will definitely all be addressed, just at least it was acknowledged things needed more time).

I'm starting to see with hindsight how, if done properly and some existing rules tweaked/relaxed, this might work out well. Some of the ED progression aspects and new ability & benefit types being brought to Heroic levels could certainly make a third life TR progression more interesting than it is now.

I can't stand my Heroic chars right now; I find the long, repetitive path to cap ahead of them too distant and uninteresting. I would much rather be switching EDs on the fly, testing different twists, earning new tricks quicker... This makes me think that actually a post-enhancement update DDO could be a great thing, if the careful balance needed between build flexibility, a sense of progression and game balance can be found.

Imagine a world where you don't care that for Rangers, FE is in the DS tree, because each tree has something new & interesting to offer, the 3 window PrE limit is gone too and PrEs are separated out from lvls like EDs. Heh, dreaming here...

[Siro]

edit; the limit of 3 pre's themselves is not the problem, its lumping all the core class enhancements into pre trees, and then limiting those trees, that is the problem.

What if they duplicate core class enhancements across pre trees?

[Scraap]

What if they duplicate core class enhancements across pre trees?

Then following their other design statement of "everything stacks" you're at 1/3rd to 2/3rds bonus.

Edit: I do suppose they could make generics the auto-grants, to keep that under control, but there's a lot of generics...

[ITZYBITZY]

All im starting to see is the exit away from this game :(
The last pack was expensive not *** the 80 bucks i spent getting it :S the last update threw all chances to solo stuff pointless unless you really do enjoy running all the levels and elite is still way to overscaled in otherwords my latest tr PURE fighter feels like a total waste :S as the bonuses dont add up nor do the damage multipliers :S
And if you dont allready know turbine also owns Lord of the rings and thats turned into nothing more than a prebuy items and pre requisites for your characters the way this is sounding the games going to be more along the lines of the more you pay the more bonuses you get ripping the vip's off like the last update 80 expansion where we got druids yet were then given them for FREE in the vip section its like what am i paying for its all getting nerfed :S
the way the tree system looks to provide COOKIE CUT CHARACTERS all set the same and loose the ability to be different :S and if thats the case its goodbye but meh soon see come 15th how fubar this rabbit hole really is :S as really im going to stop supporting the game if the uneven/overlypowered game continues :S i mean whats the point :(

[Blayster]

Sure it's simple and neat but it's also a HUGE nerf to anyone who wants to multiclass because right now on my Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2 I have 100% access to the enhancements of all 3 classes up to the level gate of each now with the newly suggested system I'll only have access to 1/3 of that because I'll only be able to choose 3/9 PrEs. I really don't know how any can't see that...it's fairly cut and dry

I think that either me or you misunderstood something.

You cannot have 9 PrE currently; actually, currently you can have only one PrE per class.

They will change this; there is no more a PrE as "Arcane Archer" or "Spellsinger" as they are going to be substituted by "PrE Trees" and you can have three of these trees. For pure classes it is a big improvement: better than one, isn't it?

If I understood correctly, you will still be able to select enhancements from all and any Classes you have. So, a multiclass would have actually 7 trees to spend points in: 1 race, 3 classes, and 3 PrE.

All in all, I think that wanting 13 enhancements trees is a bit too much. Why do you need all of these at all? Perhaps we should wait a little more and take a look to see if it is really necessary or if the 7 trees are good enough.

Also, think well what you wish for. If you get 13 trees, sooner or later someone will find a combo for having 5-20 critical threat; the devs will release a patch to fix this exploit and you guys will come here crying "Why did you nerf it!!" and "Don't fix what isn't broken!". Well not that with 7 trees no one will do the same...

Now a suggestion to devs... why don't we have a test server for this purpose? Its easier to give suggestions if we see what is going on *curious*

EDIT#1:

a 'general' tree for each taken class was suggested and rejected on the same grounds very early in the process. too complicated and confusing for new players was the company line i believe. funny to think about after sifting through the ED's.
Only now I've read this... could you please refer me to the post in which it was rejected? I remember that I started reading this thread but at some point I grew tired and I can't recall any dev claiming that it was a bad idea.

[donblas]

You cannot have 9 PrE currently; actually, currently you can have only one PrE.

.

I'm not sure this is true, and neither is my Spellsinger/Arcane archer bard.

[Zerkul]

It's definitely true that you would only be able to select enhancements that are available after the enhancement pass.

It's not definitely true that you would not be able to select critical rage.

Maybe. Maybe.

If you re-introduce Critical Rage i sincerely hope you got a balance plan for all DPS classes else you're doing the biggest mystake ever!

Standing to my calculations and gamepleay experience Barbarian Legendary Dreadnought is already now much ahead in DPS of all other melee classes: if you give him Critical Rage he'll be that much ahead that will be out of control. Even sorcerers would be subpar on their best burst DPS.

Make your moves wisely programmers.

[Glenalth]

If you re-introduce Critical Rage i sincerely hope you got a balance plan for all DPS classes else you're doing the biggest mystake ever!

Standing to my calculations and gamepleay experience Barbarian Legendary Dreadnought is already now much ahead in DPS of all other melee classes: if you give him Critical Rage he'll be that much ahead that will be out of control. Even sorcerers would be subpar on their best burst DPS.

Make your moves wisely programmers.

Chances are it would just be the top tier for Ravager, and would lock out the top tier for Frenzied Berserker and Occult Slayer due to APs needed.

[Blayster]

I'm not sure this is true, and neither is my Spellsinger/Arcane archer bard.
Oh well, I meant one PrE per class. You cannot be Virtoso+Spellsinger+Warchanter AFAIK. With the new system you... kinda could.
Lemme update the previous post to avoid misunderstanding.

[TrenchcoatJesus]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender

I dunno if this thread is dead now or what, but I just came across this and I severely hope this isn't still the direction you are headed in for warforged. Just because the race gives +2 con you think it's a tank?

Let's review:

Stalwart emphasis using a sword and board combo and defensive stance;

Warforged get enhancements for great weapon (2 handed) fighting and power attack.

This seems a very poor combination. I had much higher hopes for what your take on 'Warforged Juggernaut' would be. Even if it's a slightly different flavored Stalwart Defender, I don't think you'd be doing warforged justice.

This is subject to change, which is exactly why I'm bringing it up now. I realize development on this is stalled, but when it picks back up again I'm really holding out for something special out of the warforged racial PrE, especially in light of all the recent nerfs it has received to its immunities. (The unintended healing nerf looks like it's being resolved with u15)

-TcJ

P.S. As warforged, I should also mention that it would make sense that they would have access to a PrE line that humans/half elves would not, regardless of AP expenditure. It'd seem really irritating to me if humans could "emulate" a living construct. Adaptable, sure, shapeshifters? No.

[Ape_Man]

If you re-introduce Critical Rage i sincerely hope you got a balance plan for all DPS classes else you're doing the biggest mystake ever!

Standing to my calculations and gamepleay experience Barbarian Legendary Dreadnought is already now much ahead in DPS of all other melee classes: if you give him Critical Rage he'll be that much ahead that will be out of control. Even sorcerers would be subpar on their best burst DPS.

Make your moves wisely programmers.

Yes, god forbid melees be useful. We can't have casters come in second at any aspect of the game.

babrarians SHOULD do the most damage as that's ALL they can do.

[kingfisher]

If I understood correctly, you will still be able to select enhancements from all and any Classes you have. So, a multiclass would have actually 7 trees to spend points in: 1 race, 3 classes, and 3 PrE.

wrong. the way that they unrolled it you can have 1 race, and 3 pre and that's its. if a general or core enhancement you wanted was stuck in a pre tree you didn't want you were SOL.



EDIT#1:

Only now I've read this... could you please refer me to the post in which it was rejected? I remember that I started reading this thread but at some point I grew tired and I can't recall any dev claiming that it was a bad idea.

hahaha very funny, start digging, its only 220 pages. ;)

[Blayster]

wrong. the way that they unrolled it you can have 1 race, and 3 pre and that's its. if a general or core enhancement you wanted was stuck in a pre tree you didn't want you were SOL.
So that is what I misunderstood. And I admit that this idea sounds weird. Why would the devs even do this =S


hahaha very funny, start digging, its only 220 pages. ;)
Thanks, I know I am amazingly funny. I was just wondering if whoever saw it would have the slightest idea of where it was - I for sure have no idea, since I have not seen.
Who rejected the idea? I could search by the post author.

[Failedlegend]

I think that either me or you misunderstood something.

You cannot have 9 PrE currently; actually, currently you can have only one PrE per class.

Not saying I can take all 9 PrEs I'm saying I have FULL access too all those class based enhancements, with the new system the enhancements of each will be split into 3, IOW my Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2 currently uses Haste Boost 3 from fighter and odds are it will end up in Kensai and I use the skills boosts form Rogue Mech, than my actual PrEs are Palemaster and Stalwart Defender thats already 4 trees there and if Spell Pen ends up in archmage I'd ant some of that,etc. etc.



If I understood correctly, you will still be able to select enhancements from all and any Classes you have. So, a multiclass would have actually 7 trees to spend points in: 1 race, 3 classes, and 3 PrE.

Oh yeah I'd be totally fine with that but unfortunately the "General" Trees are only a suggestion by the community not a dev idea and since there's been no response about any player suggestions were in the dark on what they think about it. An alternative would be to grant unlimited trees but make it so you can only choose 3 trees you'll get PrE bonuses in...either way would work for me but I'd prefer the former

Another thing I'd love to counterbalance the HUGE boost that Single-Classes are getting from this update is Hybrid PrEs

Using Swiftblade (and using the Tempest Template) I'll show you what I mean

The Requirements:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 3% Dodge
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 6% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 10% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble, Full BAB,etc...some of which would only apply while hasted.

Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons. (Outside of the new system it could be purely class based)


A few other Examples:

Swiftblade: Any Arcane + Martial (Note: Alot of SB abilities require "Haste" to function)

Pirate Captain: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight: Palemaster + Paladin

?????: Arty Master Maker + Rogue Mechanic (This just NEEDS a Hybrid PrE...it just feels right.)

Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

Fist of the Forest: Druid + Monk



I'd like to reiterate that a Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker Hybrid PrE !!MUST!! be made...Self-Forged could be an option..with bonuses to fort and ability to be repair (with some heal amp penalties of course), the ability to utilize docents (as well as any other armor their proficient in), possibly some immunities, Con Bonus, etc.

[Viciouspika]

From what I've read it seems that they are trying to force pre on us similiar to character creation; for example, a rogue has 3 pre's Mechanic, acrobat, and assasin. However, in character creation there is a custom option that allows you to choose your skills, feats, and attributes. Instead of forcing a pre-trees on multiclass characters, could they create a custom tab for that class. That lists all the enhancements for that class or race. So, you can pick and choose which enhancement you want. My acrobat would like to enhance my sneak attack with SA enhancements that would be in the Assasin's pre.

just my 2cp

[Siro]

Then following their other design statement of "everything stacks" you're at 1/3rd to 2/3rds bonus.

Edit: I do suppose they could make generics the auto-grants, to keep that under control, but there's a lot of generics...

Or they could stuff generics into all the racial trees... Possibly with requisite class levels to separate stuff out a bit.

As far as I can tell, there would be a bunch of different ways to keep the core stuff for everyone while also using the new system.

[krackythehoodedone]

For those commenting on Crit Rage

Remember it has already been part of the game it is nothing new.

Initially when FB111 was introduced 95% + of all Barbs went to FB111 and ditched Crit Rage because they did way more damage that way.

The only few that gained (and lost because they could never reset enhancements) were Bowbarians and the odd TWFighter Barb.

I can only imagine that Crit Rage when it comes back (i pray) will be instead of those other trees. And it will be available at the same levels as before.

It is in reality the only thing that concerns me having exclusively played a Crit rage Bowbarian (well almost) for the last err three years and a bit

[Zerkul]

Yes, god forbid melees be useful. We can't have casters come in second at any aspect of the game.

babrarians SHOULD do the most damage as that's ALL they can do.

You know if Critical Rage becomes available with FBIII, just even one step, i'll True Reincarnate my Sorcerer into a barbarian! Because if you played Sorcerer man in the EE content you already know in which bad state the class dwells.

I play both melee and casters and between my fighter and sorcerer i always preferred to play my sorcerer: sadly it is not the same now becasue my fighter is much more party contributing. Open your eyes mate and stop moaning about buffing the barbarian class: it is already the best DPS ingame if specced properly. If you didnt notice it yet then you're not good enough for the class.


For those commenting on Crit Rage

Remember it has already been part of the game it is nothing new.

Initially when FB111 was introduced 95% + of all Barbs went to FB111 and ditched Crit Rage because they did way more damage that way.

The only few that gained (and lost because they could never reset enhancements) were Bowbarians and the odd TWFighter Barb.

I can only imagine that Crit Rage when it comes back (i pray) will be instead of those other trees. And it will be available at the same levels as before.

It is in reality the only thing that concerns me having exclusively played a Crit rage Bowbarian (well almost) for the last err three years and a bit

Yes Crit Rage belongs to the past of DDO. For balance issues it shouldn't be introduced like it is alongside with FB prestige though. Remember it was a +2 to crit range, if it gets introduced at the same level as before it's not balanced because a tierIII prestige class have the same enhancement and of lower power, just +1 crit range (Kensai III). You know it isnt fun to have the same benefit at lower level.

[Ape_Man]

You know if Critical Rage becomes available with FBIII, just even one step, i'll True Reincarnate my Sorcerer into a barbarian! Because if you played Sorcerer man in the EE content you already know in which bad state the class dwells.

I play both melee and casters and between my fighter and sorcerer i always preferred to play my sorcerer: sadly it is not the same now becasue my fighter is much more party contributing. Open your eyes mate and stop moaning about buffing the barbarian class: it is already the best DPS ingame if specced properly. If you didnt notice it yet then you're not good enough for the class.



Can the barbarian recontruct, haste, and displace himself?

When he can you might have a point.

[krackythehoodedone]

Err sorry Zerkul you are incorrect

Look it up in the compendium

Crit Rage 11 available at 14th Barb before it was withdrawn but not scrapped did indeed add +2 to the Critical Threat of melee weapons.

But it added +4 to the Critical threat of ranged weapons.

Which was enough of a bonus for me to never TR and never re set enhancements.

It was never offered alongside FB

Having played this character solidly for over three years it would be a momentously Machiavellian stab in the back to reset enhancements and kill all the remaining Crit Ragers completely after all their efforts and sacrifices to keep this line. Not to mention the fact that Turbine allowed players to keep Crit Rage.

Not sure why you say it belongs to the past . It has been and still is the cornerstone of the vast majority of all my time spent in DDO. I dont really appreciate being dismissed as irrelevant so off handedly. I for one would never try to impinge on your game play like that

[Failedlegend]

He very clearly means Crit rage II, or Crit rage 2 if roman numerals aren't your thing.


Ah I sorry I didn't know...cause 11 does not = II or 2 I was responding to what he typed

[psteen1]

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 3% Dodge
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 6% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 10% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death



i love these ideas. but you have to admit that we will be lucky to see the enhancement pass show up with 3 pre's for every class, let alone all of these hybrids. Fun to dream but will never happen.

[Vargouille]

Is August still the target date for U15+enhancements release?

There's no major changes planned to the enhancement system as part of Update 15.

[cave_diver]

There's no major changes planned to the enhancement system as part of Update 15.

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

[shadereaper33]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

You know, with the all of the complaints about content being released before it is ready, they finally listen and hold off on something to get it right, and people still complain. Yeah, it would be great to have them right now, but if they aren't ready to be released, then I for one am glad that they are holding them back rather than trying to push them out half baked.

[Vormaerin]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

Don't know what planet you live on, but the fact that it wasn't coming until U16 or so has been known for quite a while. They announced that the devs assigned to working on it were reassigned to fixing the issues with Epic Destinies first.


Besides, based on your irrational assertion of their motivations, they would have just never bothered to change the enhancements at all. MadFloyd said that the reason they are changing them is because the current system is a hassle for them, particularly when trying to design the rest of the PrEs. Its being changed because its ****ing the devs off, not because of any revenue scheme.

Nor was there ever an explicit promise as to delivery date.

[Shade]

You know, with the all of the complaints about content being released before it is ready, they finally listen and hold off on something to get it right, and people still complain. Yeah, it would be great to have them right now, but if they aren't ready to be released, then I for one am glad that they are holding them back rather than trying to push them out half baked.

Id be fine with them holding off to get it right, if they at least gave us an in progress version on lamania to give feedback on. Else it doesnt really feel like any serious progress is getting made. Its obviously a huge undertkaing that will take a lot of player testing and feedback to get right, but that hasnt even started yet.

[Scraap]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

I for one would rather see em do it right the first time, even if it takes a bit longer initially, since the alternative is several revisions over the course of months, or even years.

[Vormaerin]

Id be fine with them holding off to get it right, if they at least gave us an in progress version on lamania to give feedback on. Else it doesnt really feel like any serious progress is getting made. .

Since the system team was reassigned back to EDs, I suspect its been several weeks since "serious progress" was getting made.

[Vordax]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)


U13 was never an option, I think the first date they gave was "The summer", they then said that they were trying to get it into the expansion, It was then pushed to U15, and not long after U16.

[Ertay]

AFAIK, full prestige classes where promised to be finished multiple times years ago already and every time the release date came within grasp, they got pushed back, so this is hardly a surprise.

What I would really love to see would be some updates to lammania that show what they really are planning. It does not even have to look good or even work, but it would be great if the devs could learn to implement the playerbase just a bit earlier, so they don't have to make last minute changes that break everything else.

[dunklezhan]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

As I write this you are post 4535 in an 8 month old dev-started thread with dozens of dev posts in it acknowledging feedback and pulling the entire system at one point - as far as I can tell purely in response to that feedback - so they can shape it into something better, and then continuing to post in it for two more months including several times in the last few weeks.

Yeah. You know you're right? They're totally spending no time on this at all. I want my money back.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

They have never promised. They have told us of their plans. There's a big difference.

And they have on numerous occasions said that the way some people twist their words and claim promises when none was made is a contributing factor to their reluctance to inform us about upcoming plans.

[CaptainSpacePony]

I seem to remember someone saying they were looking at a fall implementation of the overhaul.

[slimkj]

(believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)
I don't think this is correct. If I remember correctly, I asked when it might be and the response from dev (MF?) was something like, "Summer at the earliest" which is not at all a firm promise on a particular update and reads like they're not exactly late yet either.

I'd rather wait for something that had adequate time to be designed well myself.

[Dawnsfire]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

This is exactly why Turbine has been loathe to share long term plans with us. If they rush to force something through folks complain about bugs. If they hold it back for more polish, folks complain about the 'deadline'.

I for one prefer it to be pushed back. I prefer not to be a test dummy for the changes. That is what the Mournlands folks signed up for.

[Silverleafeon]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=4623971#post4623971

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I for one would rather see em do it right the first time, even if it takes a bit longer initially, since the alternative is several revisions over the course of months, or even years.

The "little bit longer" has been going on for over 3 years. Personally, I think that's somewhat excessive.

[Ganak]

There's no major changes planned to the enhancement system as part of Update 15.

Please consider adding what has been developed and been solid.

[nibel]

Please consider adding what has been developed and been solid.

The new enhancement system sounds like they'll be a lot like the Epic Destiny enhancement system. They can't just throw it half-done at live. When it hit the servers, it must hit at full force, or you get HARSH discrepancies between some characters.

One of the changes, btw, is staying out of the 1/2/3/4 AP cost to the 1/1/1/1 AP cost. So, if (let's say) dwarves get the new racial tree, they might buy racial toughness IV paying 4 AP, while everyone else need to pay 10 AP.

Devs, please, hold this thing and deliver when it's ready. No reason to haste it because people are curious.

[Entelech]

I agree with the prevailing sentiment on this thread: lets be (somewhat) patient and have them get it right.

Let's face it, U14 (Menace of the Underdark) was a total train wreck. It was so overly ambitious, so rushed, that basically U15 (Something Something Druid Something) is nothing but a series of patches to all the stuff they didn't finish in U14.

I mean, come on. Look at the Lamannia release notes. It contains such gems as:

-The new physics engine is slightly less borked, and players will not be getting stuck in walls quite as often.
-We are finally itemizing the challenges from U14. Lame (and late) is better than nothing.
-We are making the commendations *slightly* less ********. In U16 they may become BTA like they should be.
-A few more of the (long list of) enhancements that worked fine before U14 are getting fixed after the horrific ravages inflicted by Lolth and that bearded creep, Elminster.

Frankly, the game has been all but unplayable for the past month due to server lag, endless load screens, and crippling bugs. I would far rather see them get the game to a point where it is functional before they go trashing any more big chunks of it.

[Ovrad]

The new enhancement system sounds like they'll be a lot like the Epic Destiny enhancement system. They can't just throw it half-done at live.

Well, they did exactly that with the Epic Destinies... :rolleyes:

[Blayster]

A question o'mine: with the new system can you put points in a Prestige Tree straight away, from level one? If so, that sounds awkward...

[Karadon_II]

I for one prefer it to be pushed back. I prefer not to be a test dummy for the changes. That is what the Mournlands folks signed up for.

Agreed. +1

[Knight_slayer]

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it

Sounds awsome. Cant wait. Im loving the new epic destinys etc and the fact that it makes for an even more CUSTOM character build.

The one area Turbine seems to fail in ( I mean EPIC fail ) is testing. Please take your time with it. Test it properly, on the test servers. Lets not have another belly flop on the live servers like with the U14 raid.

[Zerkul]

Can the barbarian recontruct, haste, and displace himself?

When he can you might have a point.

(Sometimes seems obvious to me but better be clear. I'm referring to the endgame classes not to the midlevels one...)

When you have a barbarian with 1100 hit points almost 20% damage mitigation and almost 10% dodge, that does more DPS than a sorcerer and heals himself for 500 hitpoints each silver flame pots you really might change idea. Furthermore you have uncanny dodge 50% dodge clickie and the possibility to craft shroud items to cast yourself haste and displacement. You know you have that many rages per day that when displacemet ends you can just dismiss rage, re-cast and re-rage again.

I have the point, not you man.


Err sorry Zerkul you are incorrect

Look it up in the compendium

Crit Rage 11 available at 14th Barb before it was withdrawn but not scrapped did indeed add +2 to the Critical Threat of melee weapons.

But it added +4 to the Critical threat of ranged weapons.

Which was enough of a bonus for me to never TR and never re set enhancements.

It was never offered alongside FB

Having played this character solidly for over three years it would be a momentously Machiavellian stab in the back to reset enhancements and kill all the remaining Crit Ragers completely after all their efforts and sacrifices to keep this line. Not to mention the fact that Turbine allowed players to keep Crit Rage.

Not sure why you say it belongs to the past . It has been and still is the cornerstone of the vast majority of all my time spent in DDO. I dont really appreciate being dismissed as irrelevant so off handedly. I for one would never try to impinge on your game play like that

It's like you want to play with cheat codes. If Barbarian Crit Rage was dismissed there was probably a reason to do it (now kensai has such a buff, not barbarian anymore)...

Well i cannot remember exactely how did work the ranged dps back then, i was a bit noob about it, but for sure i see lots of bowbarians and good arcane archers now that do not need critical rage +4 on a bow to do good dps. I sincerely think that +4 range to crit is a bit extreme buff to a weapon damage, shiradi's works just fine and finally with archer focus as well things seems to be very good for ranged users, i might be wrong but it looks like to me. Anyway i'm not exepert of ranged dps so i might be wrong.

[Ertay]

The "little bit longer" has been going on for over 3 years. Personally, I think that's somewhat excessive.

This. It's not like we are talking about a month for polishing here...

[krackythehoodedone]

Ok Zerkul and dear ole Failed Legend from the previous page.

Critical Rage is neither an exploit or a cheat code. It is in the DDO compendium exactly as I explained.

Devs have confirmed on these forums that Crit Rage is NOT any form of exploitation or cheating.

It is part of the DDO game as we speak even though it is not currently available for selection.

Players that have kept Crit Rage have not been able to gain any advantage from resetting enhancements or from TR'ing.

Neither could they take advantage of newer enhancements such as for example the AA line

Their is NO massive advantage from playing a Crit Rage Bowbarian . They are different, they are fun, they have a few situational advantages but these become disadvantages as well, they are very unusual buts that's about it.

Their is no ''easy'' button to circumvent hard work and practise

Ive swapped a 500 pt Slayer Arrow for Critting on a 13 with a Bow if you like.

This is about a group of players who were given a choice by Turbine over three years ago and took that choice. If a forced enhancement reset is made without the enhancement line being re-activated every Crit Rage Build will be finished. That is a little harsh on those players if they have spent literally thousands of hours on those characters.

I am one such player and I intend to do everything in my power to lobby the Devs, and garner as much support as i possibly can. Many others have posted similar threads.

I have never come onto these forums and advocated nerfing this or finishing that. What could I possibly gain from potentially damaging someone's enjoyment of the game

I really cant comprehend why other players would come onto these forums and cry ''cheat'' or ''exploiter'' when it is absolutely untrue, or call for Crit Rage to be ended ? Are you deliberately trying to ruin the game for others ? Are you jealous ? Do you feel threatened in some way ?

[Zerkul]

Players that have kept Crit Rage have not been able to gain any advantage from resetting enhancements or from TR'ing.

Man the same fact that you haven't TRed to keep such ability means that is OP. +4 Crit range means +20% more probability to critical hit that translate, for a bow, into +33% physical damage most of the times: one enhancement that gives you a boost of 1/3 the damage you do? I'm not a bow guru but the ability is clearly overpowered, there's no other effect ingame that matches this level of power, not even the +3 critical multiplier from the FBIII.

Alone on a bow user this ability probably is not exagerated but if you manage to fit it, with the enhancement revamp, along with the 500 damage arrow and other stuff you havent been able to fit now ... the picture gets really clear.

But anyway, what i fear is not the effect it may have on bow users but what can happen if FBII or FBIII get's comboed with Crit Rage I or II on a specific Barbarian Build.

[shadereaper33]

Id be fine with them holding off to get it right, if they at least gave us an in progress version on lamania to give feedback on. Else it doesnt really feel like any serious progress is getting made. Its obviously a huge undertkaing that will take a lot of player testing and feedback to get right, but that hasnt even started yet.

I agree that it would be nice to see what they have right now and be able to provide some feedback on it, but it is entirely possible that what they have they don't feel comfortable putting on lamma land right now, or it may not even be able to be put on lamma land. I would think that something like this would get a fair amount of testing time, since it has the possibility to break the entire game, unlike the ED system where only a few abilities would be buggy and most of the character would still be functional.

[krackythehoodedone]

Crit Rage and FB111 will never be combined Imo for the reason you stated

FB111 is actually much better DPS for 95% of all Barbs

That is why almost all of them went FB111 over Crit Rage when given the choice

Read my last post I don't have 500 point arrows and i doubt Crit Rage and Slayer arrows would be compatible.

Even if they were my character would still be miles behind your top DPS melee toon and the caster you are playing now

[Thrudh]

They have never promised. They have told us of their plans. There's a big difference.

And they have on numerous occasions said that the way some people twist their words and claim promises when none was made is a contributing factor to their reluctance to inform us about upcoming plans.

This.

[Thrudh]

Frankly, the game has been all but unplayable for the past month due to server lag, endless load screens, and crippling bugs.

LOL

Unplayable? Weird that I'm playing more than I ever have, and having a ton of fun...

[robdrew]

You know, with the all of the complaints about content being released before it is ready, they finally listen and hold off on something to get it right, and people still complain. Yeah, it would be great to have them right now, but if they aren't ready to be released, then I for one am glad that they are holding them back rather than trying to push them out half baked.
I dont remember the last time they released something that was ready, do you? I have felt like im on a test server for quite some time now.

[Thrudh]

Ok Zerkul and dear ole Failed Legend from the previous page.

Critical Rage is neither an exploit or a cheat code. It is in the DDO compendium exactly as I explained.

Devs have confirmed on these forums that Crit Rage is NOT any form of exploitation or cheating.

It is part of the DDO game as we speak even though it is not currently available for selection.

Players that have kept Crit Rage have not been able to gain any advantage from resetting enhancements or from TR'ing.

Neither could they take advantage of newer enhancements such as for example the AA line

Their is NO massive advantage from playing a Crit Rage Bowbarian . They are different, they are fun, they have a few situational advantages but these become disadvantages as well, they are very unusual buts that's about it.

Their is no ''easy'' button to circumvent hard work and practise

Ive swapped a 500 pt Slayer Arrow for Critting on a 13 with a Bow if you like.

This is about a group of players who were given a choice by Turbine over three years ago and took that choice. If a forced enhancement reset is made without the enhancement line being re-activated every Crit Rage Build will be finished. That is a little harsh on those players if they have spent literally thousands of hours on those characters.

I am one such player and I intend to do everything in my power to lobby the Devs, and garner as much support as i possibly can. Many others have posted similar threads.

I have never come onto these forums and advocated nerfing this or finishing that. What could I possibly gain from potentially damaging someone's enjoyment of the game

I really cant comprehend why other players would come onto these forums and cry ''cheat'' or ''exploiter'' when it is absolutely untrue, or call for Crit Rage to be ended ? Are you deliberately trying to ruin the game for others ? Are you jealous ? Do you feel threatened in some way ?

I don't mind that you're still playing a crit range barb... However, I don't want the devs to spend 1 second trying to figure out how to grandfather your characters in.

The writing has been on the wall for 3 years. It's not my fault you've ignored it.

Sounds like one of the barbarian PrEs will have close to what you want anyway.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

Please consider adding what has been developed and been solid.

Considering the fact that the enhancement pass isn't simply a rework of existing enhancements, but a completely new system, they can't release "some" of it. Not unless they took the time to code 2 different enhancements, one new, one old. Which would mean it would take longer.

I think this is why druids have such weird enhancements right now compared to everyone else. Druid enhancements were probably originally thought up in terms of the new system and converted to the old system when they realized they couldn't fit it in to the expansion.

[Zzevel]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

But.. but .. BUt.... You can get a Yello Cube or a Fluffy Rust Monster instead... Pathetic isn't it?

[kingfisher]

There's no major changes planned to the enhancement system as part of Update 15.

glad to hear it

[smatt]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine


Nope, Madfloyd orginally said it was going to be Mid-Summer, then they mentioned it was going to be U-14. Then about a month before U-14 they clearly said it was going to be U-16 at the earliest. The only time they ever gave a U-15 timeframe was way back in January when MF orginally spoke of it, and that was only a "We hope to have it around mid-Summer, and that was prior to any specific dates for U-14/U-15 etc...

Personlly, I thougth it was a poor decision not to have included it in U-14, they should've held of U-14 for another month or even 2, and done it "right"....

[Chai]

Why am i not surprised by the statement. We keep getting promises from Turbine of an upcoming enhancement pass & PRE's to all classes, and it keeps getting postponed. (believe it was 1st promised for U13, then U14, now U15 wont be getting it)

Why is that you ask, IMO it is because the enhancements & PRE's are free and they dont generate revenue for Turbine

Turbine, damned if they do, damned if they dont. When they dont release stuff fast enough people complain. When they release something quickly people complain about the bugs and say they should have waited to release it.

Which is it? Do the forumites want releases that take longer but have less issues, or do you want releases right now, but are willing to deal with any issue that arises sans complaint. You dont get to have your cake and eat it too on this matter, as they are inverse proportionately related. Its interesting to see how many people complain about time frame of new content releases, and then see the SAME PEOPLE complain about all the issues that arise when content is released too quickly.

Personally, Id rather wait for it and have them get it right, then release it with minimal issues.

[krackythehoodedone]

Well thank you Thrudh you are so magnanimous.

I really dont mind which characters you are playing either

But I tell you this. My characters are worth exactly the same amount of dev time yours are, grandfathered or not.

I really don't know why you chose to say thus, you especially ought to know how particularly important this small piece of code is to me.

If the writing was on the wall why did turbine allow Crit Ragers to continue thus for over three years.

I have said repeatedly I would be really pleased if the Crit Rage Pre comes back in the enhancement pass

[Chai]

If the writing was on the wall why did turbine allow Crit Ragers to continue thus for over three years.

I have said repeatedly I would be really pleased if the Crit Rage Pre comes back in the enhancement pass

They didnt. They informed us that not resetting our enhancements would keep the old builds around. Resetting enhancements means any ability that was removed is no longer accessible when selecting new enhancements.

They have hinted that the crit rage ability might be coming back as they are considering it for ravager. It will be hilarious to see how fast they nerf it when barbarians are x9 on 19-20, and x3 on ~15-18. It would be almost the equivilent of handing every great ax barbarian an eSOS. Then the eSOS barbarians will be x9 on 19-20 and x3 on 12-18. This is before destinies.

[Thrudh]

Well thank you Thrudh you are so magnanimous.

I really dont mind which characters you are playing either

But I tell you this. My characters are worth exactly the same amount of dev time yours are, grandfathered or not.

I really don't know why you chose to say thus, you especially ought to know how particularly important this small piece of code is to me.

If the writing was on the wall why did turbine allow Crit Ragers to continue thus for over three years.

I have said repeatedly I would be really pleased if the Crit Rage Pre comes back in the enhancement pass

They should be have just forced you to respec back then. They were trying to make it less painful by giving you time to respec. I doubt they ever thought anyone would still be using the old enhancements 3 years later. I have zero sympathy for you.

I bet there's like 10 of you, maybe 50... Any dev time spent on trying to grandfather you in is a complete waste of time to the other 499,990 players.

I'm pretty sure you're going to be fine anyway since one of the new barbarian PrEs has something pretty close to Crit Range anyway.

[Blayster]

I am curious how Turbine is going to get out of this. If they do what CritRage fanboys want, they will drive nearly everybody else mad. If they deliver a "nerfed" CritRage, we shall see teeth and flaming torches.

I'll make sure to have some popcorn for when the day comes. That's going to be interesting. Just to clarify which side I cheer for, this sounds as reasonable as possible to me:


They should be have just forced you to respec back then. They were trying to make it less painful by giving you time to respec. I doubt they ever thought anyone would still be using the old enhancements 3 years later. I have zero sympathy for you.

I bet there's like 10 of you, maybe 50... Any dev time spent on trying to grandfather you in is a complete waste of time to the other 499,990 players.

[nibel]

Well, they did exactly that with the Epic Destinies... :rolleyes:

No, they didn't.

Every ED have enhancements in every tier, and with the exception of the bugged ones (that is another problem), everything is also set and chosen. So, if you are going into Shadowdancer, you know you have shadow form and shrouding strike waiting for you.

The class enhancement system don't have every enhancement for every PrE for every race for every class already chosen and configured. That's what I'm saying about deliver something half-done.

[Cyr]

They should be have just forced you to respec back then. They were trying to make it less painful by giving you time to respec. I doubt they ever thought anyone would still be using the old enhancements 3 years later. I have zero sympathy for you.

I bet there's like 10 of you, maybe 50... Any dev time spent on trying to grandfather you in is a complete waste of time to the other 499,990 players.

I'm pretty sure you're going to be fine anyway since one of the new barbarian PrEs has something pretty close to Crit Range anyway.

It is too bad you do not have as much empathy for the players of the game as you have for the employees at Turbine.

I do not have a crit rage toon, but I feel that Turbine keeping their word is well worth the development time.

[krackythehoodedone]

If their was going to be an enforced respec Zexxi would have never been built.

She is a Crit Rage Bowbarian (theirs a subtle clue their somewhere).

Turbine chose to change the Barb enhancements this way. I think you are probably right what you say about Turbine never dreaming anyone would have kept Crit rage but they did.

Sympathy I don't require. A fair shout I will have

D&D was built around individuals, be it characters or items or legends.

Many people in the game have unique items,builds, quirks, titles, stories even.

Every single one of them would shout from every rooftop if that individuality was going to be taken away.

I and the other users of this enhancement are no exception

[krackythehoodedone]

I dont think so Blayster.

If they combined Crit Rage with the FB11 or other lines then you would create something overpowered.

I cant see that ever happening. FB11 replaced Crit Rage not added to it.

I can see a Crit Rage tree that would lock you out of the others and thats it.

Its not a question of nerfing Crit rage, because its no longer available. Players that kept it are forced to never TR or reset their enhancements because Crit rage will disappear as a choice. So if the new enhancement pass enforces a reset Crit rage will die unless their is a work around or it re appears as part of a new enhancement line

[esheep]

Id be fine with them holding off to get it right, if they at least gave us an in progress version on lamania to give feedback on. Else it doesnt really feel like any serious progress is getting made. Its obviously a huge undertkaing that will take a lot of player testing and feedback to get right, but that hasnt even started yet.

This.

Also these changes may make major changes to so many builds that it seems somewhat silly to put a lot of time/effort into a build that could change drastically based on enhancement changes.

I would like to know roughly what the future holds before I make any new builds.

[Scraap]

The "little bit longer" has been going on for over 3 years. Personally, I think that's somewhat excessive.

Well, don't get me wrong, I want enhancements done far more than more quests, and definitely more than retooling old ones. What I don't want to see, however, is them making the same outcome-restrictive mistakes (falling off the dice either way is bad for a game system that at it's core is built off probabilities) that have caused both them as designers and us as players the migraines that the present system has, and that does take time, and forethought, beyond simplistic methodologies that don't take into account side-effects.

[Zerkul]

FB111 is actually much better DPS for 95% of all Barbs

That is why almost all of them went FB111 over Crit Rage when given the choice


Well for melee i agree with you. You know FBIII has strength added and total of 6d6 extra dices of damage per hit which is quite nice for melees and glancing blows



Read my last post I don't have 500 point arrows and i doubt Crit Rage and Slayer arrows would be compatible.

Even if they were my character would still be miles behind your top DPS melee toon and the caster you are playing now

If someone could provide me the numbers of attacks per minute, activations times of manyshot and all valuable info about the ranged combat i miss i could check it in an excel sheet and that would be very informative. I have no idea how ranged DPS ranks himself among the top melee DPSesses, but for sure the best burst DPS is Fury of the Wild with Manyshot ... very short burst but a lot ahead of Sorcerer burst DPS.

[Arianrhod]

Just another vote for keeping unique character customization options in DDO. Have a General Class Enhancements tab (well, tabs, for multiclass characters), or whatever it takes. Just don't take away the ability to pick the class enhancements that suit your concept rather than having to pick from 3 "trees"

[Aesop]

Honestly I wish they'd take certain things out and make a General Tab that covers them.

Skill Enhancements
Stat Enhancements
Boosts (possibly)
Maybe some other things like Toughness Enhancement or Enhancements tied to specific Feats but not to a specific race or class.

I just don't like some of these things taking up space in class and race lines thus limiting characters more than they should be. Skill and Stat Enhancements are the big ones on that... Why can't someone choose Strength on a Cleric... maybe they want to be a combat cleric.

Aesop

[Aashrym]

Honestly I wish they'd take certain things out and make a General Tab that covers them.

Skill Enhancements
Stat Enhancements
Boosts (possibly)
Maybe some other things like Toughness Enhancement or Enhancements tied to specific Feats but not to a specific race or class.

I just don't like some of these things taking up space in class and race lines thus limiting characters more than they should be. Skill and Stat Enhancements are the big ones on that... Why can't someone choose Strength on a Cleric... maybe they want to be a combat cleric.

Aesop

As long as those abilities are in a low tier they'll be accessible to pure classes who want them without the general tab since I doubt anyone will be spending 80 AP and completely skipping a wanted ability in a tree. It's the higher tiers that become locked out.

Adding a general tab and moving enhancements into it would complicate multi-classing even more, I believe, which is obviously a concern for a lot of players, even if I don't share that same opinion. If the devs do move away from the previously stated restriction adding even more trees further complicates what should be a simplified system.

I would put CHA in the RS tree, WIS in the exorcist tree, and STR in the war priest tree on the first or second tier for 2 AP and allow for class level (not points spent in the tree) to further develop those on the same tier. If it were up to me. Just the initial thought. :)

[shadereaper33]

As long as those abilities are in a low tier they'll be accessible to pure classes who want them without the general tab since I doubt anyone will be spending 80 AP and completely skipping a wanted ability in a tree. It's the higher tiers that become locked out.

Adding a general tab and moving enhancements into it would complicate multi-classing even more, I believe, which is obviously a concern for a lot of players, even if I don't share that same opinion. If the devs do move away from the previously stated restriction adding even more trees further complicates what should be a simplified system.

I would put CHA in the RS tree, WIS in the exorcist tree, and STR in the war priest tree on the first or second tier for 2 AP and allow for class level (not points spent in the tree) to further develop those on the same tier. If it were up to me. Just the initial thought. :)

The issue is that, last we heard, there was a three tree limit. So if you multi class say ranger/rogue/monk, and you take the tempest tree for the PrE, that leaves you two slots to choose from between the 2 ranger, 3 rogue, and 3 monk trees. This could be quite problematic depending on how the distribute the enhancements between the different trees. If you want monk healing amp, that is one tree, which then just leaves you with 1 slot for 2 ranger, 3 rogue, and 2 monk trees. As you can see, you can quickly run out of options with this setup.

[Aashrym]

The issue is that, last we heard, there was a three tree limit. So if you multi class say ranger/rogue/monk, and you take the tempest tree for the PrE, that leaves you two slots to choose from between the 2 ranger, 3 rogue, and 3 monk trees. This could be quite problematic depending on how the distribute the enhancements between the different trees. If you want monk healing amp, that is one tree, which then just leaves you with 1 slot for 2 ranger, 3 rogue, and 2 monk trees. As you can see, you can quickly run out of options with this setup.

Not wanting to rehash old arguments, but a person doesn't run out of options; a person is forced to select from different options. I'm sure there will still be adequate ways to spend everyone's 80 AP. I'm still waiting to see what does come down the line at this point and see what has come of the feedback. ;)

[kingfisher]

Not wanting to rehash old arguments, but a person doesn't run out of options; a person is forced to select from different options. I'm sure there will still be adequate ways to spend everyone's 80 AP. I'm still waiting to see what does come down the line at this point and see what has come of the feedback. ;)

it doesnt matter how they divide up the general class enhancements, because there will be a build out there that cant access all of the core class enhancements they have access to now. unless they put all the non-pre class enhancements in all 3 of the class pre trees, someone will be ****ed. which they wont do anyway, because that would be worse than what we have now. bottom line is this: there is no way that a 3 tree limit will not destroy multiclassing as we know it. no way. if you can think a way, any way, then please share it.

they need to drop the limit, change the ui, add the new pre's, and move on.

[Aashrym]

it doesnt matter how they divide up the general class enhancements, because there will be a build out there that cant access all of the core class enhancements they have access to now. unless they put all the non-pre class enhancements in all 3 of the class pre trees, someone will be ****ed. which they wont do anyway, because that would be worse than what we have now. bottom line is this: there is no way that a 3 tree limit will not destroy multiclassing as we know it. no way. if you can think a way, any way, then please share it.

they need to drop the limit, change the ui, add the new pre's, and move on.

I didn't want to continue this old argument so I'll keep it short. :)

1) I still think it's silly to believe that just become some of the enhancements become unavailable that there won't be something else useful to spend those same AP on and therefore all multi-classing is not completely destroyed and;

2) Removing the class level gating in exchange for character level gating on the selected trees, as discussed previously, opens up higher level enhancements for the multi-classes that are not possible under the existing system. That is a potential buff to multi-classing and not a sign of destroying multi-classing.

[SealedInSong]

(snip...)

If I understood correctly, you will still be able to select enhancements from all and any Classes you have. So, a multiclass would have actually 7 trees to spend points in: 1 race, 3 classes, and 3 PrE.

All in all, I think that wanting 13 enhancements trees is a bit too much. Why do you need all of these at all? Perhaps we should wait a little more and take a look to see if it is really necessary or if the 7 trees are good enough.
(...snip)

The lifeblood of this game to me is its versatility. If I want to build an 8/6/6 human hunter of the dead I/radiant servant I/shintao I multiclass character, I should be able to. If I want to pick up some enhancements presumably outside my three prestiges, let's say exalted smite (probably Knight of the Chalice tree), divine might (perhaps in the Warpriest tree) and enhanced balance (likely Ninja tree), then I should be able to.

If I want to take yet more enhancements from outside of my prestige, i.e. improved armor class (Defender), improved turning (Exorcist), and some void strike (Mystic?), I should be able to.

If I want to pick up human versatility, I SHOULD BE ABLE TO. That would mean I've dipped into 10 trees already.

This does not overpower anyone, it doesn't detract from anyone's builds, nor does it take much effort to program.

Limiting trees that multiclasses can select from will ONLY devalue the game's most beautiful attribute: customization.

[kingfisher]

I didn't want to continue this old argument so I'll keep it short. :)

1) I still think it's silly to believe that just become some of the enhancements become unavailable that there won't be something else useful to spend those same AP on and therefore all multi-classing is not completely destroyed and;

2) Removing the class level gating in exchange for character level gating on the selected trees, as discussed previously, opens up higher level enhancements for the multi-classes that are not possible under the existing system. That is a potential buff to multi-classing and not a sign of destroying multi-classing.

something else useful is great, if they were just changing the enhancements themselves. except their plan is/was(?) to add a completely new limitation to character creation and how you could select enh. and this new limitation is actually a boost to pure classes while nerfing multi's badly. same with the level gating idea.

[Blayster]

That would mean I've dipped into 10 trees already.

This does not overpower anyone, it doesn't detract from anyone's builds, nor does it take much effort to program.

Limiting trees that multiclasses can select from will ONLY devalue the game's most beautiful attribute: customization.

Wait a second... we CAN select 3 different classes. I cannot recall any other MMO I've played with this versatility (I do remember some in which you can select 2 classes, as well as "1.5" classes). Even with the restriction of only 3 trees (which I dislike as I mentioned before) your Paladin/Cleric/Monk still have a handful of 84 possible combination of trees. It is a bit dangerous to claim that this is "not enough" or that it breaks DDO's Customization Law.

Moreover, I (and apparently the devs) truly find current system very chaotic - call it "free" if you will...

Now about the existence of a general tree, I still find it crucial. Some enhancements would HAVE to be common to two or more prestige trees of the same class, and if you want to take both prestige trees you would just take them twice (and would they stack?). My suggestion is:
- reduce number of enhancements in every tree
- add general class tree
- general tree does not have auto-granted enhancements

[Failedlegend]

- add general class tree
- general tree does not have auto-granted enhancements

- General Tab gets its own set of points similar to how Companions have their own points system (alternatively it could somehow siphon any AP spent to the PrE Trees but that would be far more complicated)

- Change Action Points to Augment Points :P

- do NOT reduce number of enhancements in every tree just remove any enhancements specifically related to the class like Monk Stances, spell damage lines, favored enemy, etc. and replace them with actual unique PrE based enhancements...a great example of how that can be done is found here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4277561&postcount=3116) and if you look here (http://my.ddo.com/lppmor/wp-content/blogs.dir/77759/files/my-gallery/wizard_elf.png) you can see how generic the PrE trees will look if general enhancements are kept within them

[billwun]

#1: Give airships a better view -
It's kind of a letdown when after finally earning an airship you get a view of water.... lots and lots of water.
While I understand it is a far easier effect to pull off, it would be much more interesting if the water was replaced
by a scale model of the whole city, to where you could make out landmarks and so forth from the deck of an
airship. It would be even cooler if when you jumped off the ship it deposited you high above whatever part of
the city the ship was flying over at that point.

#2: Favor-based player housing -
Allow players the ability to earn the right to lease/rent/purchase an apartment or house in districts where they
have earned high favor. The interiors would be instances accessed through a simple clicky door. This would
allow for a whole new world of collectible decorations and various other housing related products that could
be earned in-game or bought through the DDO store.

[Aashrym]

something else useful is great, if they were just changing the enhancements themselves. except their plan is/was(?) to add a completely new limitation to character creation and how you could select enh. and this new limitation is actually a boost to pure classes while nerfing multi's badly.

I just can't see multi-classing less viable given it's also done for class features and pre's, which will still be available to the point they are now, even with the new limitation. Even with that limitation there will be things to spend the AP on while we still gain multi-classing benefits. With racial PrE unlocks we'll even have access to PrE's up to the capstone level on multi-classes. In my experience with current multi-class builds this is often only giving up a few enhancements that could have been afforded. Those few might be important to some players, important to some builds, and the principle of it might be important to some posters, but in the grand scheme it won't kill multi-classing. That's just hyperbole.


same with the level gating idea.

That statement doesn't make any sense the way I'm reading it. Changing the level gating can't possibly be a boost to pure classes because the character level and class level are exactly the same. Conversely, gaining the ability to add a level 11 enhancement on a level 2 or 6 class, for example, is a definite plus. Did you mean something else?

[Failedlegend]

I just can't see multi-classing less viable given it's also done for class features and pre's, which will still be available to the point they are now, even with the new limitation. Even with that limitation there will be things to spend the AP on while we still gain multi-classing benefits. With racial PrE unlocks we'll even have access to PrE's up to the capstone level on multi-classes. In my experience with current multi-class builds this is often only giving up a few enhancements that could have been afforded. Those few might be important to some players, important to some builds, and the principle of it might be important to some posters, but in the grand scheme it won't kill multi-classing. That's just hyperbole.

its not hyperbole...if the devs go with what was initially proposed Single-classes get a boost, Multi-classes will become limited no ifs and or buts. Clearly you refuse to admit that so I'll try showing it in a different way


Single-Classes

Now: Can have 1 Racial PrE and 1 Class PrE
Proposed System: Can have 1 Racial PrE and all 1-3 class PrEs
Result: Clear advantage with no downside


Multi-classes
Now: Can have 1 "Racial" and 1-3 Class PrEs depending on level layout but has access to ANY enhancements up to the respective level gate regardless of which PrE the Devs think they fit with.

Proposed System: Can Have 1 "Racial" PrE and 1-3 "Trees" depending on Lvl layout but are arbitrarily cut-off from the enhancements in their other 3-6 "Trees"

Result: Wider range of "Racial" PrEs but loss of a HUGE chunk of enhancements.



Side-note: I'm wholly against "Racial" PrEs being carbon copies of Class PrEs both lore-wise and for balance sake...the only race it makes sense for is H-Elf because pf Dilletante. Something like this (Chosen PrEs just for example/my personal pref open to any actual racial PrEs) would be much more appropriate



Warforged: Reforged or Juggernaut...focused mostly on embracing or shedding construct nature. Juggernaut would need some tweaking to work in DDO though

Elf: AA and Bladesinger: Elves are masters of mixing might and magic...these Racials convey that perfectly


Dwarf: Dwarven Defender - This should be a PrE that emphasizes the dwarves sturdiness more of an extension of their Racial abilities (bonus vs. spells, immunity to knockdown,etc.) as opposed to something more like Stalwart or DoS

Halfing: Talentia Rider: Similar to Arty Pet...maybe some ranger-like abilities as well.

Human: Steelsky Liberator Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons

Drow: Scorpion Wraith honestly don't know much about but its what the drow community wants and seems to suit EBBERON Drow much better than tempest

Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher again don't know much about this one I think it's a leader-type PrE..ala Bard or Purple Dragon Knight

Half-Elf: Soulbow (IMO Half-Elves should get a different ranged PrE than Elves) and Any Class PrE based on Dilly this just suits the lore perfectly.


Another Sidenote on PrEs...please read this whole thing...Rangers should lose AA...its an Arcane PrE and Rangers already have a ranged PrE...so I'd say give DWS some much needed attention (Get SA Damage, Increase SA/PBS Distance, Increased Crit Multiplier and range when stealthed,Ranged Assassination [uses dex] and similar stuff) than give rangers the Beast Master PrE (focuses on Animal Companion [similar to Arty dog], tracking skills [ie. can see enemies on minimap,etc.], terrain mastery [similar to Monk "ways" and you get a bonus based on the terrain you choose] and finally bonuses based on chosen Companion)



That statement doesn't make any sense the way I'm reading it. Changing the level gating can't possibly be a boost to pure classes because the character level and class level are exactly the same. Conversely, gaining the ability to add a level 11 enhancement on a level 2 or 6 class, for example, is a definite plus. Did you mean something else?

I think what he was trying to say was that the proposed removal of level gating within enhancements would benefit 18/2,18/1/1,etc. builds far more than deeper multi-class builds like 12/6/2, 8/6/6,etc. which I agree with and personally I thin removing level gating would be a balancing nightmare for the devs, also I'd rather have level gating than "AP Spent" gating

I'd say overall the best way to satisfy all parties (including Turbine) is to just simply add a general tab with all "class" specific enhancements (ie. Monk Stances, Favored enemy,etc.) in it with only PrE specific enhancements (ie. Q-Staff boosts in Acrobat, Dagger/Kukri boosts in Assassin, Party affecting action boosts in PDK,etc.) remaining in the PrE "Trees" making for 5 slots 1 Racial, 1 General, 3 PrEs.

[Scraap]

Single-Classes

Now: Can have 1 Racial PrE and 1 Class PrE
Proposed System: Can have 1 Racial PrE and all 1-3 class PrEs
Result: Clear advantage with no downside


Multi-classes
Now: Can have 1 "Racial" and 1-3 Class PrEs depending on level layout but has access to ANY enhancements up to the respective level gate regardless of which PrE the Devs think they fit with.

Proposed System: Can Have 1 "Racial" PrE and 1-3 "Trees" depending on Lvl layout but are arbitrarily cut-off from the enhancements in their other 3-6 "Trees"

Result: Wider range of "Racial" PrEs but loss of a HUGE chunk of enhancements.


Small correction:

1 Racial tab, 2 class ones, and either another class, or racial depending on drop-down.

[Siro]

it doesnt matter how they divide up the general class enhancements, because there will be a build out there that cant access all of the core class enhancements they have access to now. unless they put all the non-pre class enhancements in all 3 of the class pre trees, someone will be ****ed. which they wont do anyway, because that would be worse than what we have now. bottom line is this: there is no way that a 3 tree limit will not destroy multiclassing as we know it. no way. if you can think a way, any way, then please share it.

they need to drop the limit, change the ui, add the new pre's, and move on.

What if all the general class enhancements are stuffed into all the racial trees, then hidden depending on which class levels you've attained?

Also, seriously you only get so many AP. I don't know what you're looking for with 9+ trees that you're not going to get with 4.

[kingfisher]

What if all the general class enhancements are stuffed into all the racial trees, then hidden depending on which class levels you've attained?

fine great fantastic. makes you wonder why they even wanna use trees in the first place though doesnt it? if they are all going to have the same stuff in them? that would be kind of like what we have now, except with trees....................neat. yay trees. lol.


Also, seriously you only get so many AP. I don't know what you're looking for with 9+ trees that you're not going to get with 4.

consider that caster damage lines would be split up. or monk stances. or bard song boosts separate from healing magic boost. fe enh and tempest separate. fighter toughness enh separate from haste boost. rogue skills separate from assassin. this doesnt bother a pure, but ANY multi of any of these class is SOL. not gonna repost them but scroll back a few hundred pages, there are plenty of examples of specific builds that could not access even half of the trees that hold the core class enhancements that they currently have access too based on their earned class level.

your thinking that its not big deal to lose access to a tree that you only spend 4-6 ap in, but these enh are a big part of what makes character building so great in ddo. somebody said it best cant remember who but he said they were 'taking away our duct tape' which is pretty good way of summing it up.

[SealedInSong]

#1: Give airships a better view -
It's kind of a letdown when after finally earning an airship you get a view of water.... lots and lots of water.
While I understand it is a far easier effect to pull off, it would be much more interesting if the water was replaced
by a scale model of the whole city, to where you could make out landmarks and so forth from the deck of an
airship. It would be even cooler if when you jumped off the ship it deposited you high above whatever part of
the city the ship was flying over at that point.

#2: Favor-based player housing -
Allow players the ability to earn the right to lease/rent/purchase an apartment or house in districts where they
have earned high favor. The interiors would be instances accessed through a simple clicky door. This would
allow for a whole new world of collectible decorations and various other housing related products that could
be earned in-game or bought through the DDO store.

How have I not pondered this? I would spend an obscene amount of Turbine points to have my own house in House Cannith.

[Aashrym]

its not hyperbole...if the devs go with what was initially proposed Single-classes get a boost, Multi-classes will become limited no ifs and or buts. Clearly you refuse to admit that so I'll try showing it in a different way


Single-Classes

Now: Can have 1 Racial PrE and 1 Class PrE
Proposed System: Can have 1 Racial PrE and all 1-3 class PrEs
Result: Clear advantage with no downside


Multi-classes
Now: Can have 1 "Racial" and 1-3 Class PrEs depending on level layout but has access to ANY enhancements up to the respective level gate regardless of which PrE the Devs think they fit with.

Proposed System: Can Have 1 "Racial" PrE and 1-3 "Trees" depending on Lvl layout but are arbitrarily cut-off from the enhancements in their other 3-6 "Trees"

Result: Wider range of "Racial" PrEs but loss of a HUGE chunk of enhancements..

Repeating your opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion, nor does my difference of opinion constitute refusing to admit anything. ;)

Comparing what pure classes have now to what they will have and what multi-classes have now to what they will have is not relevant to whether multi-classing will be viable or not after the change because for multi-classing to be viable after the change you would need to compare pure classing to multi-classing after the change, which is something you are not doing with those statements.

A note on the changes from the current system to the new system with pure classes that you seem to have missed, though: A pure class at high levels (20 for example) cannot have equal access to high level enhancements in all trees; by spending points in trees the enhancements in other trees will become locked out. Currently if I am a 20th level anything I can access all the high level enhancements for which I have AP; in the new system that will not be true. In the new system I could have AP available to me that I've earned but I cannot spend in another tree because of tier AP spend req's. Taking enhancement A in the top tier of tree 1 will effectively lock out 2 of enhancements B, C, or D in the other 2 skill trees and race tree. That is a loss of a huge chunk of enhancements.

Pure classes will have 3 class trees and race tree, plus a possible race unlock tree to swap in for a class tree. Multi-classes will have 3 class trees and a race tree, plus a race unlock tree to swap in for a class tree; however, the multi-classes will have the advantage of selecting from up to 9 class trees as well for the best possible set of trees while pure classes are limited to the standard class trees. In the end both of them have the same number of enhancements to spend AP on so I can see a reason to multi-class there. The fact that I need to select which trees gives me that advantage and giving up 10 hp for a toughness enhance seems reasonable as I spend the AP on another tier of speed boost instead (with removed level gating) or whatever else will work for my build instead.

Pure classes can take any capstone in the class. Multi-classes can only take the capstone unlocked by the race tree unlock which also has an AP opportunity cost for the unlock. To me that looks like an advantage for pure classes, but it doesn't eliminate multi-classing for builds using the racial unlock tree capstones or builds making up the difference from the capstone with the added class abilities and potentially more synergistic PrE bonuses available from the multi-classes.

Many classes have front loaded abilities that players will take over the lack of back loaded abilities. If I make a bard 15 / rogue 3 / fighter 2 it's because I value the additional rogue skills, evasion, sneak attack damage, bonus feats, and all martial weapons over bard levels 16-20. Those low level rogue and fighter enhancements are only a small part of why I would be multi-classing in the first place. On the new system I can choose the 3 best trees for my build out of 9 class trees which is an advantage over selecting the 3 best class trees out of 3 class trees. Without the class level restrictions that could be warchanter, virtuoso, and kensei.

Also, players who want to have the free PrE's and enhancements from separate classes that aren't available by race (or wish to choose a different race) are still going to multi-class to do that. That won't change; what will change, possibly, is for which enhancements they would be multi-classing.

There are still reasons to multi-class looking at that 3 tree limit. I can see those advantages and that is why, in my opinion, multi-classing is obviously not doomed.

[Failedlegend]

Snip

That big long post is really only saying to things

1. Your assuming there will be "AP Spent" Gating which a is a TERRIBLE idea and B) has never been mentioned by a dev

2. Sure multiclassing will lose alot of flexibility/power but they will still be viable despite the fact that Single-Class builds gain plenty in the current proposed system

#1 is your assumption and #2 is what were against happening. The fact that multiclassing is becoming more limited whilst Singleclasses are getting more is not an opinion currently its a fact and will remain so until something is changed. The ONLY people who argue against this are the ones who think that multiclasses need to be taken down a notch or 2

[Aashrym]

That big long post is really only saying to things

1. Your assuming there will be "AP Spent" Gating which a is a TERRIBLE idea and B) has never been mentioned by a dev

2. Sure multiclassing will lose alot of flexibility/power but they will still be viable despite the fact that Single-Class builds gain plenty in the current proposed system

#1 is your assumption and #2 is what were against happening. The fact that multiclassing is becoming more limited whilst Singleclasses are getting more is not an opinion currently its a fact and will remain so until something is changed. The ONLY people who argue against this are the ones who think that multiclasses need to be taken down a notch or 2

AP gating is list as 5 per tier in the mockup. You might call it a terrible idea but it's definitely been mentioned by the dev's and not an assumption. Single classes are getting less access to high level enhancements based on the information provided by the devs.


Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

I can guarantee there will be something to spend the AP on even if it's a different option than the ones given up in locked out trees. It's not like being multi-class will create characters who cannot spend their AP.

That makes number two point your opinion, not a fact, because the difference between having more low level enhancements to select from instead of spending those same AP on higher tier enhancements (with or without level gating changes) doesn't demonstrate a lack of power, just a change in the options taken.

Stating a loss in power because a player would be selecting another enhancement of equal or higher level because an enhancement is locked out is an assumption.

Removing the level restrictions opens up vertical progression so that we don't have both AP and level restrictions (something that only benefits multi-classing) and maintain the nice balance and easy to work with system of 3 trees plus on race tree. All characters have the same number of tress and AP. That makes design sense to me.

The reason I didn't want to rehash this particular argument was because it's an argument stating that some players will need to select different enhancements because some of their low level enhancements will be locked out and therefore it's the doom of all multi-classing, which I think is silly to start with.

[squishwizzy]

I know I said I was done posting here, but I'm bored (stress-testing some communications stuff), and feel like writing.

The first question - not sure if anyone addressed it here in the 230+ pages of posts - why are you interested in re-making the UI for enhancements? It works fine for what it needs to do: select the appropriate enhancements when you level. Ok, maybe it is a little clumsy, and you can tweak a thing or two, but for the most part it works fine.

From reading stuff here, there are two things that distiguish DDO from its compeditors (that is until NWN comes into existence), and these are as follows: an extensive, loyal following of experienced DnD players, and a free-form means by which you can build your toon. Many existing games provide optimized trees for skill abilities, which is really limiting. I noticed this from a trasition from Diablo to Diablo II. I LOVED the original Diablo because it started off the character as a blank slate, and I could experiment and customize the toon as I progressed. When Diablo II came along that vanished. If Blizzard has used the Diablo base, and added more expansion quests to that system, they would have been able to extend the revenue produced from a proven engine with lots of diversity in choice. They didn't. While Diablo II was an enjoyable game, I found that I wasn't as enamored of it as I was for first release. Hence, I have no plans to purchase Diablo III. Basically, it is a game with a limited shelf life that, if I were to purchase it now, would be an expense for X hours of entertainment, and nothing more.

DDO, with all of its open-ended-ness provides probably 30 times more hours of entertainment. The prime reason is because it is open-ended. People make strong builds, people make flavor builds, people make wacky builds...that;s where a huge chunk of your entertainment value comes from.

The answer to the enhancement UI isn't really an overhaul and trees. The answer is a suite of tools that players can use to build and analyze character progression. Yeah, there are tools already out there: leverage these somehow. Maybe provide some sort of integration into the system so that someone can plan their character on a character builder, and then use this as a pre-defined path, much in the same way a Wizzy goes Palemaster, or a rogue goes Master Mechanic. Frankly speaking, trying to shoehorn this into your current offering seems to be a lot of work for a modest return. Plus, a lot of players have tools they already like to use.

Yeah, I'm sure trees are nice, and yes you can use trees while still keeping the open-ended nature of the player character intact. However, I don't think I want to spend a lot of my time online plotting my character's next career move - I want to spend that time adventuring, or crafting, and so on.

Maybe you can provide libraries and an integration gateway to seed a few intrepid developers to even provide you player building tools that costs you nothing overall. Or you can build your own, and distribute it as purchased software.

Just a thought. In my 20+ years of experience, the places that survive longest in the realm of software generally have the most third-party products that leverage or enhance their framework or main product. While you may lose revenue on secondary purchases, you'll preserve a consistant (or even expand) revenue stream over time, while minimizing development time. My thought is back-end, secured integration solutions are easier to develop than full-blown graphical UIs.

[Failedlegend]

AP gating is list as 5 per tier in the mockup. You might call it a terrible idea but it's definitely been mentioned by the dev's and not an assumption. Single classes are getting less access to high level enhancements based on the information provided by the devs.



It's still a dumb idea but irrelevant to our fact that multiclassing is taking a huge hit with the new system whilst single-classes gain alot because the AP Spent in tree addition affects both single-classes and multiclasses equally.

As for the removal of level gating again I'm on the fence about that...on one hand that is very tempting for some of my builds but on the other hand it will probably be a nightmare to balance for the devs and I'd rather not have it if it means they drop the Ap spent requirement.

Also don't forget were getting all PrEs up to tier 3 so less reason to multi-class for that alone

[Siro]

fine great fantastic. makes you wonder why they even wanna use trees in the first place though doesnt it? if they are all going to have the same stuff in them? that would be kind of like what we have now, except with trees....................neat. yay trees. lol.

Because trees are good for visually organizing and planning in ways that big long lists of enhancements are not.


consider that caster damage lines would be split up. or monk stances. or bard song boosts separate from healing magic boost. fe enh and tempest separate. fighter toughness enh separate from haste boost. rogue skills separate from assassin. this doesnt bother a pure, but ANY multi of any of these class is SOL. not gonna repost them but scroll back a few hundred pages, there are plenty of examples of specific builds that could not access even half of the trees that hold the core class enhancements that they currently have access too based on their earned class level.

your thinking that its not big deal to lose access to a tree that you only spend 4-6 ap in, but these enh are a big part of what makes character building so great in ddo. somebody said it best cant remember who but he said they were 'taking away our duct tape' which is pretty good way of summing it up.

Consider that one can only go by what we have now in determining what would be in each pre tree based upon existing pre-requisites. That leaves out a LOT of enhancements as not being specifically assigned to anything. And there's overlap in requirements. Wizard's Pale Master and Archmage both require energy of the scholar. Paladin's DoS and KoC both require Courage of Good. And there's even class overlap in requirements where other class enhancements can serve as prerequisites. That you've made the leap that somehow enhancements are going to be split up in such a manner is simply creating something to complain about that doesn't actually have any basis in fact.

I think you're seriously underestimating what they can do with multi-selector enhancements.

[kingfisher]

Because trees are good for visually organizing and planning in ways that big long lists of enhancements are not.

maybe, or maybe they are just easier for ex wow players to understand


Consider that one can only go by what we have now in determining what would be in each pre tree based upon existing pre-requisites. That leaves out a LOT of enhancements as not being specifically assigned to anything. And there's overlap in requirements. Wizard's Pale Master and Archmage both require energy of the scholar. Paladin's DoS and KoC both require Courage of Good. And there's even class overlap in requirements where other class enhancements can serve as prerequisites. That you've made the leap that somehow enhancements are going to be split up in such a manner is simply creating something to complain about that doesn't actually have any basis in fact.

I think you're seriously underestimating what they can do with multi-selector enhancements.


judging by what they said when this was first discussed and going by the examples used by the devs, the enh splits were terrible. fe enh in the deepwood tree for one. bard songs for another. monk stances. wiz damage lines. these would be split up among the pre trees. which is not a problem to pure classes because they will still get the entire gamet of class enh, but for multi's; the very fact that they will be split up at all is a nerf as long as the tree limit is in place. period. it does not matter how they are split.

yes, as i said before..if ALL class enh are in every pre tree then the tree system would be less of a hinderance. BUT the devs said they wanted to avoid this. if they change that stance then we will see; until then i think your seriously overestimating what they will do period.

[Blayster]

As for the removal of level gating again I'm on the fence about that...on one hand that is very tempting for some of my builds but on the other hand it will probably be a nightmare to balance for the devs and I'd rather not have it if it means they drop the Ap spent requirement.
This... balance in first place, please...



fine great fantastic. makes you wonder why they even wanna use trees in the first place though doesnt it? if they are all going to have the same stuff in them? that would be kind of like what we have now, except with trees....................neat. yay trees. lol.
Read first post please. MadFloyd mentioned why changing it into a tree, and that is not *only* for saving the enviroment.



============ SUGGESTION MODE ON ============

Number of Prestige Trees = (2 + Number of Classes)

============ SUGGESTION MODE OFF ============

(IMHO) Multiclass should lose in power but earn in versatility - roughly meaning "lower tiers, more trees" in my mind, which hopefully has not gone totally insane just yet.

The thoughts of having a General Tree for each class still pleases me; however, fatefully that bears additional layers of complexity which if I am not mistaken, devs want not.

Adding 2 more trees for multiclassing is not unfair, as the APs to-spend remains the same. Also, it is not the berserk-ish solution of having all trees, and if the 3 PrT scheme is implemented indeed (which I am guessing to be true for Mournlands) this shant require much in-code change (potentially several in the UI though).

To avoid people having a Ranger 13 /Rogue 6/Fighter 1 with Deepwood/Arcane Archer/Tempest/Assassin/Mechanic Trees (that is, the guy picked 1 fighter level only to add... Mechanic Tree...) a restriction could be to enforce at least one tree of each class, and the others free.

All in all, I think we need more details before we propose any fruitful suggestions. We are shooting in the dark here. Not that I dislike; I am truly a fancier of these guessing games.

[Siro]

maybe, or maybe they are just easier for ex wow players to understand

Having never played WoW, I wouldn't know. I do know that the current implementation of enhancements is HORRIBLE and that the epic destiny format is great by comparison. Did you have a different graphical organizational method you would prefer to see implemented?


judging by what they said when this was first discussed and going by the examples used by the devs, the enh splits were terrible.

That was over half a year ago and discussion never got further than tossing around some very rough ui mock ups. The devs haven't outlined specifics on what all would be in a full enhancement line yet. Perhaps offering up your own mock up of how a full enhancement tree (within the confines of the stated limitations of 3 pres and 1 racial tree) should look would be a step in the right direction. I'm sure that with your experience with multi-class builds you probably have a lot to offer.

[kingfisher]

Having never played WoW, I wouldn't know. I do know that the current implementation of enhancements is HORRIBLE and that the epic destiny format is great by comparison. Did you have a different graphical organizational method you would prefer to see implemented?

That was over half a year ago and discussion never got further than tossing around some very rough ui mock ups. The devs haven't outlined specifics on what all would be in a full enhancement line yet. Perhaps offering up your own mock up of how a full enhancement tree (within the confines of the stated limitations of 3 pres and 1 racial tree) should look would be a step in the right direction. I'm sure that with your experience with multi-class builds you probably have a lot to offer.

1 no i dont mind the way it is now, nor do i mind the trees. its just funny is all.
2 you dont get it. its not how they split up the enh or what goes where; its the 3 tree limit that is the problem. it makes zero sense. hopefully when they start actually talking about this again the limit will be history. until then, the limit is their last idea, and its a terribly ****** one. no manner of mock ups or other bar napkin scribblings will change that.

[Siro]

1 no i dont mind the way it is now, nor do i mind the trees. its just funny is all.
2 you dont get it. its not how they split up the enh or what goes where; its the 3 tree limit that is the problem. it makes zero sense. hopefully when they start actually talking about this again the limit will be history. until then, the limit is their last idea, and its a terribly ****** one. no manner of mock ups or other bar napkin scribblings will change that.

So even if every multiclass build in the game now is still possible, perhaps even easier, under that limit, you still don't like it?

[Failedlegend]

So even if every multiclass build in the game now is still possible, perhaps even easier, under that limit, you still don't like it?

Except their not and many popular Multiclasses have been broken done within the thread to show they lose ALOT with the 3 tree system as it was described by the devs

[Scraap]

So even if every multiclass build in the game now is still possible, perhaps even easier, under that limit, you still don't like it?

AA + 3 T1s would not be possible under the new system as described. Whether that's a good thing or not is open to interpretation, I suppose.

[kingfisher]

So even if every multiclass build in the game now is still possible, perhaps even easier, under that limit, you still don't like it?

it is not possible that any, much less every, multiclass build will be the same under the 3 tree limit. not counting splashes ofc. multi's lose out the second that some enh they have access to now are stuck in a tree they now cant access because of the silly 3 tree limit. period. end of story. the only way they could maintain what they have today is if ALL class enh are in every pre tree, which turbine has already said they didnt want to do. they change their stance on this then we can talk about it, until then your dreaming.


edit: i guess i didnt answer your question, if they put all class enh in every tree, then sure i wouldnt care if its trees or a list. it would still be the same character design as today.

i dont understand why anyone would be in favor of this stupid limitation to character design, except for those who love pure class builds and dont like the multi's. the 'pure needs a boost crowd' was vocal in here months ago.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

it is not possible that any, much less every, multiclass build will be the same under the 3 tree limit.

There is no way for you to know this. It is pure conjecture on your part.

Until we see the complete system, including what goes in the boxes and how access is going to work... we are all shooting bee-bees into the Atlantic, trying to catch a catfish....

[HungarianRhapsody]

There is no way for you to know this. It is pure conjecture on your part.

Until we see the complete system, including what goes in the boxes and how access is going to work... we are all shooting bee-bees into the Atlantic, trying to catch a catfish....

If it works even remotely like the system described (where multiple enhancements show up in one tab and not in the other two tabs for that class and each character can choose only three tabs total), then there will be enhancements that multiclass characters will not be able to take after the enhancement change that they currently can take.

There's really no possible argument that can deny that.

Until we see the complete system, we won't know *which* currently possible options are not possible under the new system, but you can't possibly pretend that there won't be options that are currently possible that aren't possible under the new system.

[Failedlegend]

There is no way for you to know this. It is pure conjecture on your part.

Until we see the complete system, including what goes in the boxes and how access is going to work... we are all shooting bee-bees into the Atlantic, trying to catch a catfish....

Hey LWGG, long time no see...took you way longer than I expecting to jump in with your "lets give zero feedback/suggestions until we know everything" idea...despite the fact at that point it will be to late

[Glenalth]

AA + 3 T1s would not be possible under the new system as described. Whether that's a good thing or not is open to interpretation, I suppose.

True, but you could probably end up with a top tier AA and almost top tier on the other two.

It's trading breadth for depth. We won't really know how it's going to turn out until the release more information on it.

One thing is true though, no matter what they do it will be unbalanced in one way or the other when it is initially released.

[Failedlegend]

True, but you could probably end up with a top tier AA and almost top tier on the other two.

It's trading breadth for depth. We won't really know how it's going to turn out until the release more information on it.

One thing is true though, no matter what they do it will be unbalanced in one way or the other when it is initially released.

Actually its literally impossible the most availible under the 3 tree limit would be AA + 2 since theres only 3 tree slots (this includes racial pres)

Also multiclassing is all about breadth (aka versatility)....take that away and whats the point

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Until we see the complete system, we won't know *which* currently possible options are not possible under the new system, but you can't possibly pretend that there won't be options that are currently possible that aren't possible under the new system.

They have already said there will be new enhancements, others removed or merged. We knew this over six months now. Everyone will follow the same set of rules, so noone gets an upper hand.

Its already been stated by Mad that their will be more choices for multis and that multis will be strengthened by those options.

They never said pures or multis will be exactly the same after these changes. All builds will most likely change at least a little. We just have to grasp onto that fact. We are still twisting people's words around for almost a year now. Its a waiting game until the system is released...

[Scraap]

True, but you could probably end up with a top tier AA and almost top tier on the other two.

It's trading breadth for depth. We won't really know how it's going to turn out until the release more information on it.

One thing is true though, no matter what they do it will be unbalanced in one way or the other when it is initially released.

Simply pointing out that folks can't definitively say 'nothing will get busted', and 'we won't know the impact just from this'. That is an example of a mathematically impossible outcome given stated design changes.

[kingfisher]

There is no way for you to know this. It is pure conjecture on your part.

Until we see the complete system, including what goes in the boxes and how access is going to work... we are all shooting bee-bees into the Atlantic, trying to catch a catfish....

wrong, by its mere definition the 3 tree system will limit multi's more than pures and it will limit multi's more than they are today. this is a fact. its very simple math.

i out zero stock into a dev's offhand comments about supporting mutliclass builds when all of their released material proves exactly the opposite.

we are not talking about the difference between exactly the same or slightly changed, we are talking about a complete change to how characters enh can be chosen AND that in this new system multiclass builds will be severely more limited than pure class builds. this is a fact under the proposed system they leaked info on. if they have modified it fine lets see, but with what we know, it is a fact.

see it or dont idc. many many others see it both in game and here on the forums. the fact that you refuse to acknowledge this is and even your opinion on the matter is invalid anyway because of your previous statements on how multiclass builds need a nerf anyway and this new limitation is a good thing. it is no surprise you support this change.

[ShadowFlash]

wow, can't believe this is still going. A couple points to make just on the last few pages. I was one of those that posted a few hundred pages ago with many real (not theory, actually rolled and in service) builds that would be *broken* under any semblance of the proposed system.

1: Quoting MadFloyd as "multi's will actually be better" is laughable. He always says things like this about nerfs. Most recently, his "the heal spell actually got a buff" when it in fact it definately did not. Whatever the spell power system turned out to be, any knowledgeable person knows his statement was blatantly false (and mathematically proven many times in his own unresponded to thread). I have Zero faith in statements made by this particular Dev. He's right up there with the old uneducated "Fernando" quotes in my book.

2: Regardless how the *tree* system turns out, I'm sure there will be many NEW and interesting possibilities created. The problem will be with existing multi-class builds. The problem lies in build choices based on the soon-to-be-old system. Careful planning is needed for most multi's, balancing front-loaded class abilities/feats AND enhancements. The relative worth of a splash drastically decreases if either of these two things are eliminated or unobtainable due to tree restrictions...err..sorry, I mean "more choices".

This isn't imagining mysterious what-if's...this is based on current observation if we look at the most recent spellpower and AC/damage mitigation and to-hit changes. Just look at the current interaction by Devs (or considerable lack-thereof) on these current issues. The most concerned players recieved was a thread started by Mad, then never responded to or addressed at all by ANY Dev. Many builds lost a considerable portion of their power under the new systems. Turbine threw a bone with a buggy LR for free. The problem was/is, a lot of the builds most affected were multi's, and a simple LR does nothing to rectify the builds, as entire splashed class selection was/is no longer "worth it".

I believe all the mentioned concerns are justified. I also believe the writing is on the wall. No Dev will read this thread in it's entirety...and even if they did, it would fall on deaf ears. Our job will simply be to adapt or move on to greener pastures. If adaptation is chosen over exodus, then TRing will be needed to "fix" multi-classed builds. With the current state of token fragment farming, this will generally result in spending TP....and encouraging the new system to the bookeepers.

/tinfoil hat off

Just remember, it's only paranoia if you're wrong :p

ShadowFlash

Edit: I feel I should give props to those Devs that actually try to listen to, discuss, and address player concerns, rather than putting on a good show of it, with generalized unsubstantiated and unresponsive threads and comments. Feather of the Sun, while either a love him or hate him Dev, at least is VERY straightforward in his motivations, opinions, and actions...for that at least I give credit where due. Brecca is perhaps the best "shining light" of a Dev DDO has seen in a long long time, if ever.

[fyrst.grok]

maybe, or maybe they are just easier for ex wow players to understand


I like the trees.. Never touched WoW and couldn't stand diablo etc.

My biggest concern with the trees right now is if the tree windows aren't scalable they won't fit on my screen as I'm playing on a laptop.. Would be awesome if we could get scalable ui while they're at it.

[Siro]

edit: i guess i didnt answer your question, if they put all class enh in every tree, then sure i wouldnt care if its trees or a list. it would still be the same character design as today.

What about only putting all the class related trees in the relevant class pre trees? Should a fighter/wizard/rogue really get cleric enhancements? Should a wizard tree have fighter enhancements? What about not splitting pre's out to their own trees and instead having each character class grant a single tree (with all the PREs of that class included)?


i dont understand why anyone would be in favor of this stupid limitation to character design, except for those who love pure class builds and dont like the multi's. the 'pure needs a boost crowd' was vocal in here months ago.

I don't consider it a limitation to change the presentation and organization of enhancements. That's the important bit, by the way. Finding a common starting point upon which to to further improve enhancements.

[kingfisher]

What about only putting all the class related trees in the relevant class pre trees? Should a fighter/wizard/rogue really get cleric enhancements? Should a wizard tree have fighter enhancements? What about not splitting pre's out to their own trees and instead having each character class grant a single tree (with all the PREs of that class included)?

That is all i was talking about, putting all class enh in every tree. so if a fighter splashed character wants the SD pre he can take it but also has access to the improved stunning blow or haste boost enh without wasting an additional tree to get kensai. and putting all the class enh in one tree is what we have now, except now its in a list format. so its great with me heh.



I don't consider it a limitation to change the presentation and organization of enhancements. That's the important bit, by the way. Finding a common starting point upon which to to further improve enhancements.

i dont think a single person has posted one negative thing about them upgrading the ui and/or the presentation of the enhancement system. its what they proposed along with this change that sucks, ie the 3 tree limit coupled with the core class enh divisions into the pre trees. this nerfs the **** out of multiclassing and thats the problem imo.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This nerfs the **** out of multiclassing and thats the problem imo.

But if Madfloyd is saying the way they are designing this, it does NOT nerf multi-classed toons, but in reality adds more options to strengthen them, where is your proof backing up your counter-arguments, that you've been lodging ever since 1/12?

[Chai]

But if Madfloyd is saying the way they are designing this, it does NOT nerf multi-classed toons, but in reality adds more options to strengthen them, where is your proof backing up your counter-arguments, that you've been lodging ever since 1/12?

In understanding that deep multiclasses will be limited in BOTH vertical AND horizontal advancement. The entire idea of multiclassing is to sacrifice vertical enhancement in one class for horizontal enhancement options in another. Since one class already gives 3 trees (when they finish their list of PRE) - multiclassing is creating LESS options for the toon.

Since we are already limited to how many points we can spend, and sacrificing vertical enhancement in order to gain horizontal advancement in the first place already imposes its own limitation, there is no reason to limit horizontal advancement any more than it is already been limited. Doing so arbitrarily DECREASES the number of options available.

In fact, in an extreme case like a 6/6/8 split, sacrificing that much vertical adancement and STILL only having three trees to choose from may create a situation where the player cant even spend all 80 points within that three tree limitation, because they only have 8 (max) levels vertically. They should not be FORCED to put their points into the trees they have the most levels in, as this defeats the entire reason to multiclass in the first place, which is to sacrifice vertical benefit in one class to gain horizontal benefit in another.

On an 18/2, putting one point into one of the trees with the 2 level splash closing off an entire 18 level tree possibility is just absurd. Its certainly not in the spirit of D&D. If my 18/2 bard wants a point of str, I can now only put points into 2 of the 3 bard trees. Somehow this creates MORE options? No, I dont think so, and have yet to see evidence to the contrary, as long as we are in the business of demanding evidence from those we disagree with.

Also note that this system was supposed to go live in U14 and has now been pushed back quite a few times. I believe they see the same dilema I am outlining, and trying to find a way to have their cake and eat it too. It aint going to happen by adding arbitrary limitations to an already limited system.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

In understanding that deep multiclasses will be limited in BOTH vertical AND horizontal advancement. The entire idea of multiclassing is to sacrifice vertical enhancement in one class for horizontal enhancement options in another. Since one class already gives 3 trees (when they finish their list of PRE) - multiclassing is creating LESS options for the toon.

So what? There MUST be a price to pay to multiclass, to counter-act the benefits you are picking up bythe very act of multi-classing. This goes back to the earliest days of PnP D&D, and will never change. Its a balancing act. Pures cant have everything a multi can have. Its only fair that multis cant have everything a pure can have.

We still have no idea which enhancements get changed, or which access rights to those trees pures and multis will have.

We are drawing pictures with fine tipped brushes and empty cans of paint. We need to see a working version of the project before we can accurately judge the artwork.

[Chai]

So what? There MUST be a price to pay to multiclass, to counter-act the benefits you are picking up bythe very act of multi-classing. This goes back to the earliest days of PnP D&D, and will never change. Its a balancing act. Pures cant have everything a multi can have. Its only fair that multis cant have everything a pure can have.

There already is a price to pay to multiclass. You are sacrificing vertical advancement in one class for horizontal advancement in another class. This is how it works now. A fighter who takes 6-8 barb levels loses kensai 3 and the fighter capstone. The very act of multiclassing alrerady is a sacrifice. It always has been.


We still have no idea which enhancements get changed, or which access rights to those trees pures and multis will have.

We are drawing pictures with fine tipped brushes and empty cans of paint. We need to see a working version of the project before we can accurately judge the artwork.

The enhancements themselves dont factor into my argument so they are irrelevant. Its the tree space we have been talking about here. Less tree space = less options. What you are arguing is that 3 trees might have enough juicy enhancements for people not to care about the rest. I dont like that argument because it puts everyone into a cookie cutter situation where being pure or light splash only is the optimal/viable way to go, and multiclassing = gimping. Even if that is how it pans out, its not the D&D way. Having more options is the D&D way.

[kingfisher]

But if Madfloyd is saying the way they are designing this, it does NOT nerf multi-classed toons, but in reality adds more options to strengthen them, where is your proof backing up your counter-arguments, that you've been lodging ever since 1/12?

so wait they MAAAAAY get more power................


So what? There MUST be a price to pay to multiclass, to counter-act the benefits you are picking up bythe very act of multi-classing. This goes back to the earliest days of PnP D&D, and will never change. Its a balancing act. Pures cant have everything a multi can have. Its only fair that multis cant have everything a pure can have.

We still have no idea which enhancements get changed, or which access rights to those trees pures and multis will have.

We are drawing pictures with fine tipped brushes and empty cans of paint. We need to see a working version of the project before we can accurately judge the artwork.

........but its DESERVING if they get a nerf????????????????

you can stop now leslie, txs

[Scraap]

But if Madfloyd is saying the way they are designing this, it does NOT nerf multi-classed toons, but in reality adds more options to strengthen them, where is your proof backing up your counter-arguments, that you've been lodging ever since 1/12?

An intention is not a method. Nor is pointing out how an aspect of their chosen method doesn't meet their stated intention doom-crying.

[ShadowFlash]

In understanding that deep multiclasses will be limited in BOTH vertical AND horizontal advancement. The entire idea of multiclassing is to sacrifice vertical enhancement in one class for horizontal enhancement options in another. Since one class already gives 3 trees (when they finish their list of PRE) - multiclassing is creating LESS options for the toon.

Since we are already limited to how many points we can spend, and sacrificing vertical enhancement in order to gain horizontal advancement in the first place already imposes its own limitation, there is no reason to limit horizontal advancement any more than it is already been limited. Doing so arbitrarily DECREASES the number of options available.

In fact, in an extreme case like a 6/6/8 split, sacrificing that much vertical adancement and STILL only having three trees to choose from may create a situation where the player cant even spend all 80 points within that three tree limitation, because they only have 8 (max) levels vertically. They should not be FORCED to put their points into the trees they have the most levels in, as this defeats the entire reason to multiclass in the first place, which is to sacrifice vertical benefit in one class to gain horizontal benefit in another.

On an 18/2, putting one point into one of the trees with the 2 level splash closing off an entire 18 level tree possibility is just absurd. Its certainly not in the spirit of D&D. If my 18/2 bard wants a point of str, I can now only put points into 2 of the 3 bard trees. Somehow this creates MORE options? No, I dont think so, and have yet to see evidence to the contrary, as long as we are in the business of demanding evidence from those we disagree with.

Also note that this system was supposed to go live in U14 and has now been pushed back quite a few times. I believe they see the same dilema I am outlining, and trying to find a way to have their cake and eat it too. It aint going to happen by adding arbitrary limitations to an already limited system.

GFT

Wow Chai. That has to be the best, most thorough explanation of the problem I've seen. No opinions, No trolling, No Confrontation whatsoever. A well Deserved +1 to you. It's unfortunate the only response is "so what" to a flawless analysis.

ShadowFlash

[LightBear]

It's definitely true that you would only be able to select enhancements that are available after the enhancement pass.

It's not definitely true that you would not be able to select critical rage.

Maybe. Maybe.

That getting back would just rock so much!
My main is a barbarian and to be honest it sucks to much to use the curent prestige enhancement.

[Failedlegend]

GFT

Wow Chai. That has to be the best, most thorough explanation of the problem I've seen. No opinions, No trolling, No Confrontation whatsoever. A well Deserved +1 to you. It's unfortunate the only response is "so what" to a flawless analysis.

ShadowFlash

Yeah unfortuneately when the thread first started Leslie and her gang did this exact same thing it wasted alot of thread space and probably caused alot of devs to stop following the thread or least lessen the focus on it....I think this is Leslie & Co.'s hope...for some odd reason.


That getting back would just rock so much!
My main is a barbarian and to be honest it sucks to much to use the curent prestige enhancement.

Honestly my hope for Barbarians in with the new system is actually Occult Slayer....I love the pure awesomeness of a whirlwind Barbarian (prob 2 splash fighter for heavy armor and feats) but honestly its only fun (IMO) for so long I'm hoping this PrE can add some more goodies to my Barbarians Hotbar...also I've always my Barb as a jump over the defenders and smash the caster so OcS is perfect for my personal Barb playstyle

[Aashrym]

In understanding that deep multiclasses will be limited in BOTH vertical AND horizontal advancement. The entire idea of multiclassing is to sacrifice vertical enhancement in one class for horizontal enhancement options in another. Since one class already gives 3 trees (when they finish their list of PRE) - multiclassing is creating LESS options for the toon.

Since we are already limited to how many points we can spend, and sacrificing vertical enhancement in order to gain horizontal advancement in the first place already imposes its own limitation, there is no reason to limit horizontal advancement any more than it is already been limited. Doing so arbitrarily DECREASES the number of options available.

In fact, in an extreme case like a 6/6/8 split, sacrificing that much vertical adancement and STILL only having three trees to choose from may create a situation where the player cant even spend all 80 points within that three tree limitation, because they only have 8 (max) levels vertically. They should not be FORCED to put their points into the trees they have the most levels in, as this defeats the entire reason to multiclass in the first place, which is to sacrifice vertical benefit in one class to gain horizontal benefit in another.

On an 18/2, putting one point into one of the trees with the 2 level splash closing off an entire 18 level tree possibility is just absurd. Its certainly not in the spirit of D&D. If my 18/2 bard wants a point of str, I can now only put points into 2 of the 3 bard trees. Somehow this creates MORE options? No, I dont think so, and have yet to see evidence to the contrary, as long as we are in the business of demanding evidence from those we disagree with.

Also note that this system was supposed to go live in U14 and has now been pushed back quite a few times. I believe they see the same dilema I am outlining, and trying to find a way to have their cake and eat it too. It aint going to happen by adding arbitrary limitations to an already limited system.

Except the entire point of looking at removing level restrictions on those trees removes any vertical restrictions and that 2 level splash still has a full tree of enhancements to poke through.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

One last thought. Can we register this thread with the Guinness Book of World Records for the "Most repeated hyperbole instances in a single thread" category?

Hmm. Hey look, we can!

http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/set-record/

Thread's got more lives than Morris the cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCja1WGZx-E).

[Failedlegend]

Except the entire point of looking at removing level restrictions on those trees removes any vertical restrictions and that 2 level splash still has a full tree of enhancements to poke through.

Again I admit my mouth is watering profusely at the possibilities but at the same time it would be a nightmare to balance and honestly the main effect it will have is 2 & 1/1 splashes that much more popular

[Chai]

Except the entire point of looking at removing level restrictions on those trees removes any vertical restrictions and that 2 level splash still has a full tree of enhancements to poke through.

Ill believe that when it goes live. Taking 2 levels of fighter and getting kensai 1,2,3 out of the deal? Cant explain that. /randon bill oriley meme.

The system is already balanced in that it requires a vertical sacrifice for a gain of lateral advancement. No need to reinvent the wheel here, when whats already available works just fine.

[Failedlegend]

Ill believe that when it goes live. Taking 2 levels of fighter and getting kensai 1,2,3 out of the deal? Cant explain that. /randon bill oriley meme.


Actually IIRC MF said that the PrEs would have level gatiing.


I still say the 5 tree system (Racial 1, General 1 [has its own points], 3 PrEs including racial PRe if desired) plus Hybrid PrEs (I wouldnt expect too many to start though) would be the simplest solution, removing level gating would just be ludicrous. Also it would make the Prestige Trees feel ALOT more Unique since they would only have enhancements specifically related to themselves


Using Swiftblade (and using the Tempest Template) I'll show you what I mean by "Hybrid" PrEs
The Requirements:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 3% Dodge
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 6% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 10% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble, Full BAB,etc...some of which would only apply while hasted.

Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons. (Outside of the new system it could be purely class based)


A few other Examples (Note: to gain access to the hybrid PrE you must have at least 1 AP spent in each required PrE (or any PrE of a required class/power source)

Swiftblade: Any Arcane + Martial (Note: Alot of SB abilities require "Haste" to function)

Pirate Captain: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight: Palemaster + Paladin

?????: Arty Master Maker + Rogue Mechanic (This just NEEDS a Hybrid PrE...it just feels right.)

Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

Fist of the Forest: Druid + Monk



I'd like to reiterate that a Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker Hybrid PrE !!MUST!! be made...Self-Forged could be an option..with bonuses to fort and ability to be repair (with some heal amp penalties of course), the ability to utilize docents (as well as any other armor their proficient in), possibly some immunities, Con Bonus, etc.


Also here's some great examples of "Unique" Prestige tree lines (obviously using rogue as an example)


I think that by massively increasing the cost associated with taking a PrE without increasing the benefits, or at least incorporating other benefits, you're basically proposing an across-the-board nerf to PrEs, both multi-class and pure.

That said, here's an example of what I want to see for Rogue enhancements:


General Tab
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Faster Sneaking 1/1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10/13 10% faster movement while sneaking
Sneak Attack Training 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10/13/16/19 +2 Sneak attack Damage per level
Sneak Attack Accuracy 1/1/1/1 2/5/9/14 +1 to-hit to sneak attacks per level
Subtlety 2/2 3/9 Your attacks produce 15% less threat per tier
Device Mastery 2/2/2/2 1/6/11/16 +1 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and UMD per level
Stealth 1/1/1/1 1/6/11/16 +1 to Hide and Move Silently per tier
Haste boost 1/1/1/1/1 1/5/9/13/17 10% haste boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
Skill Boost 1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10 +2 skill boost first tier, +1 each additional tier
Damage Boost 1/1/1/1/1 1/5/9/13/17 10% damage boost for first tier, 5% each additional tier
Rogue Dexterity 2/2/2/2 1/6/11/16 +1 Dexterity per tier
Wand and Scroll Mastery 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 +15% increase to effectiveness of wands/scrolls/other items that cast spells

The General Tab contains no tier unlocks or benefits, and is class-level gated as noted. The general tab is automatically available with 1 rogue level , Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Half-Elf_Dilettante:_Rogue), or the rogue active past life feat, Past Life: Sneak of Shadows (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Past_Life:_Sneak_of_Shadows).
Half Elf Diletante: Rogue would count as 1 level of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. Dilettante enhancements would increase this level by 1 each. Past Life: Sneak of Shadows would count as 2 levels of rogue for the purpose of class-level requirements. A Half-Elf with Rogue Dilettante, all dilettante enhancements and Sneak of Shadows would count as a level 5 rogue for the purpose of general enhancements, but would not be eligible for any of the PrE trees. These "virtual levels" are added to rogue levels for general enhancements, but not for PrEs.


Acrobat
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Acrobatics 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to Balance, Jump, Tumble
->Showtime 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Showtime" (as current Showtime, no boost use)
->->Prime Time 1/1/1 9/11/13 Showtime adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
->->->Grand Finale 3 15 Consume a use of your "Showtime" ability to gain 15% doublestrike and 50% fortification bypass for 8 seconds
->->->->Encore! 1 18 Striking the killing blow on a red- or purple-named monster returns a use of your "Showtime" ability
Tactical Staff 1/1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 +1 bonus per tier to all tactics feats with quarterstaff equipped
Staff Training 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 Increase the Enhancement Bonus of your Quarterstaff by +1 per tier
->Staff Fencing 1/1/1/1/1/1 6/8/10/12/14/16 Gain 2% fortification bypass and +1 deflection bonus to AC per tier while using a quarterstaff
->->Defense Staff 1/1/1 9/12/15 5% competence bonus to damage reduction per tier with staff equipped
->Staff Specialization 1/1/1 6/9/12 +2 damage per tier with equipped staff
->->Staff Expertise 1/1/1/1/1 9/11/13/15/17 +2% per tier to glancing blow damage or off-hand proc rate with staves
->->->->Staff Mastery 2/2 15/18 +1 to Staff Critical Threat per tier
->->->->->Staff Impact 2 18 +1 to Staff Critical Multiplier
->Staff Blitz 2 3 Treat Staves as double-weapons
Uncanny Relfexes 1/1/1/1 4/6/8/10 Uncanny Dodge grants additional +1 AC and +1 reflex per tier
->Uncanny Dodger 1/1/1 6/9/12 Uncanny Dodge lasts 10 seconds longer per tier
->->Uncanny Mind 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny Dodge also grants +2 per tier to will saves
->->Uncanny Body 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny dodge also grants +2 per tier to fortitude saves
->->->Uncanny Evasion 3 18 Uncanny Evasion gives the rogue a second chance on a failed reflex save
Nimble Strike 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 Add 2 points of your dexterity bonus to sneak attack damage per tier
Slow Fall 3 4 Gain Slow Fall as a monk of equal level
Aerobatics 2 15 +20% movement speed while falling


Granted Benefits:
Tier .5 +10% movement speed
Tier 1 +5% attack speed with Staves +2 uses of uncanny dodge
Tier 1.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 2 Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
Tier 2.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 3 Full ability bonus to damage with staff as double-weapon, or +15% glancing blow damage and 5% effect proc rate as two-handed
Capstone +2 to dexterity and gain incorporeal miss chance equal to your reflex save

PrE tiers granted at levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20, points spent requirement 4/8/16/20/24/31, total of 77 points worth of options. Arrows (->) show dependencies. A character could spent almost all of their points in acrobat enhancements, or just over 1/3rd, and pick up other trees. A character could gain the capstone taking only staff enhancements, no staff enhancements, or some of each. Capstone would either become a stance, or mutually exclusive, in order to prevent a character getting more than 1.


Assassin
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Stealth 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to hide, move silently, and bluff
->Running Silent 1/1/1/1/1 4/7/10/13/16 1 use per tier of 35% sprint boost, while stealthed only
Assassin's Focus 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Assassin's Focus"*
->Assassin's Quickness 1/1/1 9/11/13 Assassin's Focus adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
->->Penetrating Focus 3 15 Consume a use of "Assassin's Focus" to ignore 100% of fortification for 10 seconds
->->->The Big Hit 1 18 A successful Assassinate returns one use of your "Assassin's Focus"
The Subtle Knife 1/1/1 6/12/15 Your attacks cause 10% less threat per tier (stacks with Subtlety)
Serrated Knives 1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 Your dagger/kukri criticals reduce enemy AC and fortification by 1% for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
Knife Sharpening 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 Increase the Enhancement Bonus or your Dagger or Kukri by +1 per tier
->Razor Edges 1/1/1 8/12/16 +2 damage per tier with equipped daggers and kukris
->->Flashing Blades 1/1/1/1/1 9/11/13/15/17 2% chance per tier to proc a 'Deception' effect on hit
->->->Knife Mastery 2/2 15/18 +1 to critical multiplier with knives on 20/19-20
->->->->Stiletto 2 18 +1 to critical threat range with daggers
Poisoner 2 3 Choose one of three poisons (see current assassin I poisons)
->Concentrated Poisons 1/1/1/1/1 6/9/12/15/18 +1 per tier to the DC of your poisons
->->Cunning Poions 3 12 Add your intelligence modifier to the DC of your poisons
->->->Corrosive Poison 1/1/1 6/12/18 Your poisons deal 2d6 untyped damage per tier to enemies who are immune to poison
->Experienced Poisoner 2 15 Gain Immunity to Poison and Disease
Weighted Dice 2/2/2 2/11/20 Increase the minimum result of your sneak attack dice by 1 per die, per tier

*Assassin's Focus: +2 to hit with sneak attacks, +20 to confirm criticals, bypass 10% of fortification, when attacking from stealth, you have 100% offhand attack chance.
Granted Benefits:
Tier .5 +15% faster movement while sneaking; +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
Tier 1 +1d6 sneak attack damage
Tier 1.5 +1d6 sneak attack damage
Tier 2 Assassinate (dex based); +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
Tier 2.5 +1d6 sneak attack damage
Tier 3 Vorpal Assassinate; +2 to Hide, Move Silently, and Fortitude saves
Capstone: +2 Dex; +4d6 Sneak Attack Damage

I couldn't come up with as much for Assassin, only 69 points, but then Assassins needed less help, and daggers/kukris are inherently better than staves. You could still get away with taking less than half of the enhancements, and still reach the capstone, or take all of them, with a few points left over for the DPS enhancements in the general tab. No dagger or poison enhancements required to meet the capstone, just barely.

edit: Grabbed the mechanic enhancements back into this poste from here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4278417&postcount=3127) in order to consolidate for linking back to this post.

Mechanic
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Engineering 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot
->Reverse Engineering 1/1/1 6/10/14 +1 to Use Magic Device, +1 crafting level, +2 trap DC
Combat Engineer 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Combat Engineer"**
->Demolitionist 1/1/1 9/11/13 While Combat Engineer is active, your traps are emplaced instantly; traps and grenades have a 4% chance per tier to crit for double damage
->->Big Ba-da-boom 3 15 Consume a use of "Combat Engineer" to increase all trap, grenade, and crossbow damage by 50% for 8 seconds
->->->Mass Destruction 1 18 When your score a kill with a grenade, reclaim one use of "Combat Engineer"
Bolt-Ridden 1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 Repeater criticals reduce enemy fortification by 2% and fortitude saves by 1 for 10 seconds, 1 stack per tier
Mechanical Aptitude 1/1/1/1/1 4/7/10/13/16 Increase the enhancement bonus of your repeating crossbow by 1 per tier
->Repeater Specialization 1/1/1 8/12/16 +2 damage per tier with your equipped repeater
->->Repeating Repeater 1/1/1/1/1 6/9/12/15/18 Your repeater has a 1% chance per tier to fire a second volley immediately
->->->Repeater Mastery 2/2 15/18 Reduce repeater reload time by 25% per tier (multiplicative stacking with rapid reload)
->->->->Sabot Shots 2 18 +1 to Critical multiplier on vorpal strikes with all crossbows/repeaters
Manual Dexterity 1/1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12/15 Reduces time to open lock or disarm by 20% per tier
->Nimble Mind 3 12 Add your dex bonus to your disable device total
Practiced Eye 1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9 +1 spot and -20% search time per tier
Monkeywrencher 1/1/1/1 3/8/13/18 +1d6 per tier bane damage to constructs
->Wrack Construct 1/1/1 5/10/15 Wrack Construct I/II/III (as current)
->->Ruin Construct 2 12 Wrack construct stuns on crits; red/purple named lose additional 15% fort instead
Repair Construct 1/1/1/1 1/4/7/10 repair 1d3+3 per second, per tier - 15 second duration
Trap Resistance 1/1/1 2/8/14 +2 to saves vs. traps and +3 to all elemental resistances per tier

**Combat Engineer: Traps take 50% less time to place and enemies who successfully save still have their defenses compromised, reducing fortification by 10% for 10 seconds (does not stack with itself)
Granted Benefits
Tier .5 Light Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; Critical fail while disarming trap dazes you, but does not explode the box
Tier 1 Add your Int bonus to crossbow/repeater damage; your trap DCs are increased; all of your traps and grenades deal 10% more damage
Tier 1.5 Heavy Repeating Crossbow Proficiency; +3 to Disable Device, Open Locks, and Search
Tier 2 Add half your dex bonus to sneak attack damage; your trap DCs are increased; +3% crit chance with traps and grenades (+0.5 multiplier)
Tier 2.5 Smite constructs/living constructs; +3 to elemental resistances, 10% damage reduction vs physical traps
Tier 3 Great Crossbow Proficientcy; your trap DCs are increased; traps and grenades deal addional 15% damage
Capstone: +2 Int; All light/heavy/great crossbows you wield fire volleys of 3 bolts, instead of 1; Trap DCs increased

There still aren't enough crossbow bonuses to reach the capstone without taking anything else. I'm not sure if I'm ok with that. You could still get the capstone without taking any trap enhancements, or without taking any crossbow enhancements, although I can't imagine why you'd want to. 74 total points in the tab.

[Aashrym]

Ill believe that when it goes live. Taking 2 levels of fighter and getting kensai 1,2,3 out of the deal? Cant explain that. /randon bill oriley meme.

The system is already balanced in that it requires a vertical sacrifice for a gain of lateral advancement. No need to reinvent the wheel here, when whats already available works just fine.

Just the trees and not the free PrE bonuses, but still enticing. Personally, if I were not getting the PrE either way but I had a choice of enhancements all the way up the tree with high level enhancements available or a larger selection of low level enhancements I would be more inclined to want the high level enhancements. 20-24 enhancements vertically including high level enhancements sounds better than 24-30 low level enhancements to me.

We need the wheel reinvented either way because the list of enhancements is not nearly as user-friendly as a tree system. As awkward as it is now it certainly won't be more appealing finishing off all the PrE's in the current list form.

[Failedlegend]

We need the wheel reinvented either way because the list of enhancements is not nearly as user-friendly as tree system. As awkward as it is now it certainly won't be more appealing finishing off all the PrE's in the current list form.

This I can agree with.

[Siro]

That is all i was talking about, putting all class enh in every tree. so if a fighter splashed character wants the SD pre he can take it but also has access to the improved stunning blow or haste boost enh without wasting an additional tree to get kensai. and putting all the class enh in one tree is what we have now, except now its in a list format. so its great with me heh.

i dont think a single person has posted one negative thing about them upgrading the ui and/or the presentation of the enhancement system. its what they proposed along with this change that sucks, ie the 3 tree limit coupled with the core class enh divisions into the pre trees. this nerfs the **** out of multiclassing and thats the problem imo.

Okay, so that should be the starting point then. A graphical overhaul that puts the existing system into the new format. From there, there's somewhere around 10+ sets of prestige enhancement lines that are getting added. How about mark that out for a milestone for bug-testing and implementation and then they can revisit splitting any of that out into additional trees further down the line. I think that's really pretty ambitious to begin with, given the problems that have been had with the destinies.

[Karavek]

So what? There MUST be a price to pay to multiclass, to counter-act the benefits you are picking up bythe very act of multi-classing. This goes back to the earliest days of PnP D&D, and will never change. Its a balancing act. Pures cant have everything a multi can have. Its only fair that multis cant have everything a pure can have.

We still have no idea which enhancements get changed, or which access rights to those trees pures and multis will have.

We are drawing pictures with fine tipped brushes and empty cans of paint. We need to see a working version of the project before we can accurately judge the artwork.

Uhm since the PREs mimic PRCs which typically where very front loaded and end loaded in 3E+ PnP and unlike normal classes had no impact on xp for spread, it was easy and highly practical in PnP to fit in a number of them by lvl 20.

In fact it was probably what lead to outright end game dominance of casters, as their PRCs usually had many over lapping feat reqs. And since most caster PRC still increased your caster lvl and spells per day, it lead to some very scary comboes.

Certain ones became must have as time went on. I know no PnP wizard player who does not include at least one lvl in archmage,arcane duelist, fire mage, on top of a good chunk of arcane trickster( a PRC that gives full caster progression and rogue sneak attack for its 10 lvls, and lets you get sneak attack on any spell that requires an attack roll and is used within 30 feet.

No PRC in fact very rarely equal giving up anything, in fact the more pre reqs equals more power typically. meaning if its a 5 lvl PRC you cant even hope to take till lvl 12+ you like are getting 5 lvls worth more power then most classes give in 10 or 15 lvls.

Infact even skip williams in an issue of dragon explained that the multi classing of 3rd ed was to encourage alot more RP development of characters learning things as they encountered them. you start as a fighter sure, but spend a few sessions in the woods and when lvl up time comes u get one in ranger cus it makes sense and helps with your current needs. The whole plan your character out at lvl 1 is not only META but actually against the design of D20 D&D. Its suppose to allow for organic character development based on the current situation.

Sadly too few good DMs exist to teach those who over think the game how to play it. Min Maxxers killed 3e created the abomination that is 4E and I shudder at the idea of what 5E might become. Nerds are cool, Geeks are not. A promise you Louis and Gilbert did not bring calculators and talk numbers when playing D&D. They put on pointy hats, and pretended they existed in a world without science, the ultimate fantasy for them.

[Karavek]

Now I tried to keep up with this whole thread I really did. I think I gave up back around page 10.

As others have said due to the current nature of PRE and multi classing splits, its dangerous to do to much change that makes current splits like a 6/6/6 become anything but more empowered from such choices. some capstones are already so close to OP as to make it hard to multi and not endlessly question if it was the right choice.

I do not directly oppose the idea of a limit to trees, but the trees should more accuratly reflect the abilities of the PnP PRCs they are based upon. Kensai for example should be a crit master with no equal in the use of his chosen weapon.

I dont oppose letting just one lvl in a class open up the full tree for the character. If for example we all start with 4 tree slots. 1 racial and 3 from classes. and u can pick and choose anywhere from 1-3 trees from the same class, to allow for some truly interesting comboes. Id love something like that.

Say I wanted to be a 2/2/16 paladin/monk/sorc I am already giving up lvl 9 spells, why should I not be allowed to persue the full line of a savant, while also becoming a ninja spy, and a KOTC. If I wanted those to be my 3 trees why shouldnt I be able to progress them as fully as my points to spend in them allow? Granted it would be a rather crazy mix, but it coud be alot of fun, and only in the current system where PRE are divided into tiers of 6 lvls does it become much less viable. Hell until we had savants such a build was probably not to bad.

So I guess my long winded post is saying is PRE should not actually in any way be connected with our total lvl spread in a given class. If you meet the pre reqs and are even a splash of the class, that should be enough to develop it fully if that is what a player wants.

Free Form is good, forced selection is a reason not to even play.

[kingfisher]

Okay, so that should be the starting point then. A graphical overhaul that puts the existing system into the new format. From there, there's somewhere around 10+ sets of prestige enhancement lines that are getting added. How about mark that out for a milestone for bug-testing and implementation and then they can revisit splitting any of that out into additional trees further down the line. I think that's really pretty ambitious to begin with, given the problems that have been had with the destinies.

honestly this should have been turbines objective and plan from the beginning, as opposed to trying to shoehorn everything into an enh 'pass'. change and run the new ui, test. add new pre, test. rebalance all pre and enh cost, test. step by step. trying to do all of this at once is what led to the stupid tree limit in the first place, because it provided them a shortcut. besides, they have proven time and time again that they cannot implement large scale changes without also unleashing large scale bugs. and your right, judging by the ed's, the enh changes done as proposed would most likely come out buggier than July nights in south Georgia.

[Carpone]

Are enhancements getting a revamp in U16, or is it getting pushed out yet again?

[Failedlegend]

Are enhancements getting a revamp in U16, or is it getting pushed out yet again?

Currently slated for November (U16) last I checked

[smatt]

Are enhancements getting a REBUG in U16, or is it getting pushed out yet again?


Fixed that for you.....

[Dolphious]

Hopefully I'm just paranoid and pessimistic, but I'm starting to smell a "it's been delayed" announcement coming :(

[artistx]

With the new system will being a Cleric Palemaster be possible?

[Scraap]

With the new system will being a Cleric Palemaster be possible?

As described so far, yes. As well as a PM sorc, an SD earth-monk, an assassinating arty...

[Dolphious]

As described so far, yes. As well as a PM sorc, an SD earth-monk, an assassinating arty...

Of course the last time anything really substantive was shared with the community was months ago at this point, so who really knows.

[Failedlegend]

Of course the last time anything really substantive was shared with the community was months ago at this point, so who really knows.

and considering the devs goal (as in NOT a promise) at this point is November and we almost in september it would need to be on Lammania but late sept. in which it will be to late to make any major changes which is why I'm baffled as to why their not giving us any info to get feedback on it now before its too late, unless they know we won't like it are hoping to delay the backlash as long as possible6

[Entelech]

Bah. No conspiracy required.

The massive backlash of bugs from U14 and U15 shows what their timelines are like. Anything that actually gets coded far enough for players to test on Mournlands will go live. Period. Even if it is the most horrible thing ever.

They're too far behind the 8-ball to abandon anything that's up to "too crippled and limping to evaluate" much less something you might show to outsiders. Besides, it's not like their producer has a track record for realizing that a "brilliant idea" isn't living up to expectations. "Prettiest race in DDO" indeed.

[voodoogroves]

"Prettiest race in DDO" indeed.

Dear monitor, meet beer.

[CrackedIce]

Disclaimer: like apparantly everyone else here, I have zero clue what the enhancement update will look like.

But I have some ideas (Food for thought):

ONE - Devs have said that races will have current class PREs (ex. halfling = rogue's assassin)

Im fine with that.

But I dont think this would be sensible: halfling's tree = assassin's tree.

The difference is clear.

Let the optional traits in the tree be a unique part of the halfling's race and the automatically chosen PRE at the bottom of the tree be the assassin line. For example keep halfling's companion. The tree should also have some of what makes the assassin as well. For example, sneak attack training, subtle sneak attack, and faster sneaking. In sum, the racial trees should sport some unique traits that can only be found for that race as well as relevent enhancements to that PRE from that class.

TW0 - With that note, i think that the weapon specializtion of the races should be kept...and modified. I believe that they should come closer to the power of the khopesh with the final tier of the damage enhancement. (Its a tradeoff between a feat and APs) Maybe instead of +2 total have it somewhere between +3 and +5, Im thinking +4 to damage.

Also think should add some more to races lacking in them: WF - greatsword, longswrd, bastardsword;
Drow - feiurum (or however you spell it) drow with scimitar and kukri, dwarf with picks (so option b/w axe or picks)

THREE - dwarf defender fighters/palis, elf AA rangers, and halfling assassin rogues should be the best at those PREs.
Make it that having both that races PRE and its classes PRe of the same thing count as only one tree and the tree one spends the most AP in gets that PRE activated. The benefit - Example: rogue hafling can double up on the sneak attack training line from both trees.

FOUR - dragonmarks are too much of a flavor to take the tree cost (and AP cost) of a true PRE!! Just put the dragonmarks in the racial tree and as an option once the character meets those requirements.

FIVE - how is a 20 lvl halfling fighter supposed to bluff for SA and hide to get assasinate ability to work with a fighter's skillset? Let each race lower the cost of relevent skills so its no longer considered 2 points, but one point. Fighter still gets 2 + int mod, but with halfling bluff, hide, move silently should only cost one pt.

Other examples: Elf - spot, maybe stealth or maybe even diplomacy, ; dwarf - intimidate, balance , maybe even "search" (for their affinity to details), half elf diplomacy and maybe even umd (is a pay for class)

Cant think of more now. Anyway thanks for reading.

[HatsuharuZ]

FOUR - dragonmarks are too much of a flavor to take the tree cost (and AP cost) of a true PRE!! Just put the dragonmarks in the racial tree and as an option once the character meets those requirements.

There are Dragonmark Heir prestige enhancements listed as being in the works on the wiki. In the lore, no one JUST uses a dragonmark, they use their dragonmarks to enhance abilities and skills that they already have. Hopefully, they'll have dragonmarked heir PrEs as part of the enhancement update.

[Failedlegend]

There are Dragonmark Heir prestige enhancements listed as being in the works on the wiki. In the lore, no one JUST uses a dragonmark, they use their dragonmarks to enhance abilities and skills that they already have. Hopefully, they'll have dragonmarked heir PrEs as part of the enhancement update.

Dragonmark heirs have been alll but cancelled but the plan is to reduce DMs to a single feats and gain extra abilities through Racial enhancements and Character Levels.

[HatsuharuZ]

Dragonmark heirs have been alll but cancelled but the plan is to reduce DMs to a single feats and gain extra abilities through Racial enhancements and Character Levels.

Are you sure that they have been cancelled? Reducing the dragonmarks to one feats and a few enhancement lines is one step away from full DM heir PrEs.

[Chai]

Bah. No conspiracy required.

The massive backlash of bugs from U14 and U15 shows what their timelines are like. Anything that actually gets coded far enough for players to test on Mournlands will go live. Period. Even if it is the most horrible thing ever.

They're too far behind the 8-ball to abandon anything that's up to "too crippled and limping to evaluate" much less something you might show to outsiders. Besides, it's not like their producer has a track record for realizing that a "brilliant idea" isn't living up to expectations. "Prettiest race in DDO" indeed.

Massive backlash? :p

You mean the 5 or 6 known issues that are still around after they patched everything else within days of being discovered, which people still complain about daily before tabbing right back into the game they are complaining about daily?

And now we're at the point of quantum complaining, even before the releases. Just remember kids, the only thing that will generate 1.21 jiggawatts of power is a bolt of lightning. Flux capacitor and flaming tire tracks abound, this new thing, it is bad!!!

[smatt]

"Sigh" rhymes with something....

You mean the 5 or 6 known issues that are still around after they patched everything else within days of being discovered,


That's a bit of an understatement there Chai... :rolleyes: And if you mean to say days, as in day sis less than a year sure..

It's OK, even DDO needs it 2 "Shining knights in armor" :D

I must admit, I played the last 3 days and the overall gameplay is MUCH smoother than it was in June and the first week of July..... They worked on something.... But for you too come in and say there's only 5 or 6 known issues is well kind of insane ;)

[Chai]

"Sigh" rhymes with something....

You mean the 5 or 6 known issues that are still around after they patched everything else within days of being discovered,


That's a bit of an understatement there Chai... :rolleyes: And if you mean to say days, as in day sis less than a year sure..

It's OK, even DDO needs it 2 "Shining knights in armor" :D

I must admit, I played the last 3 days and the overall gameplay is MUCH smoother than it was in June and the first week of July..... They worked on something.... But for you too come in and say there's only 5 or 6 known issues is well kind of insane ;)

So, how many known issues resulting from U14 are still affecting your gameplay? How about U15?

Massive backlash? More like the same ~20 or so forumites who complain about every other update now complaining about the last two. .001% of the customer base.

This "knight in shining armor" has a realistic view of the known issues, and tends not to use overstated terms like "massive backlash" when describing two quests that are not able to be completed, which get patched and fixed in the same week. Yeah, most horrible thing ever. Uh huh. :p

Thing that sucks, is that when some real insane issue does happen, which needs some legit attention, the same type of complaining will occur, and the Turbine staff members will just look at these threads, shrug, and declare it another day at the office. Wont surprise me when it happens either. When we complain that they are ignoring us, they will respond with "another game update released and more forumites complaining, what else is new?"

Id love to take some of you back to EQ where servers went down for 3-4 days at a time. Hilarious.

[-Avalon-]

Id love to take some of you back to EQ where servers went down for 3-4 days at a time. Hilarious.

True Story, I was there... Except I played on Test Server... good times... good times... :rolleyes:

[Ape_Man]

Thing that sucks, is that when some real insane issue does happen, which needs some legit attention, the same type of complaining will occur, and the Turbine staff members will just look at these threads, shrug, and declare it another day at the office. Wont surprise me when it happens either. When we complain that they are ignoring us, they will respond with "another game update released and more forumites complaining, what else is new?"

Id love to take some of you back to EQ where servers went down for 3-4 days at a time. Hilarious.

EQ sucking worse that Turbine does not excuse the poor quality control of the recent releases.

We are not crying wolf, Turbine is that bad.

[Blayster]

Thing that sucks, is that when some real insane issue does happen, which needs some legit attention, the same type of complaining will occur, and the Turbine staff members will just look at these threads, shrug, and declare it another day at the office. Wont surprise me when it happens either. When we complain that they are ignoring us, they will respond with "another game update released and more forumites complaining, what else is new?"

I see your reasoning here, sir, but let me add something. If Turbine follows a Customer Service policy like 99% other companies, the forums are nothing but a façade. The staff responsible for making us feel like they care is not the same staff that fix the issues. We complain here, someone read them and only the 2% of the complains that "matters" are really forwarded to be discussed seriously by the ones who can fix it.

In other words complaining here only makes the forum administrator's life harder, not the developers themselves.

Should I wait a dev comment saying "Of course you're wrong Blayster, we surely care and personally evaluate carefully every single line of what you guys write down here in the forums"?

[artistx]

how about changing the subject a little... anyone got any Theoretical builds based on what we know about the new system?

[Jay203]

how about changing the subject a little... anyone got any Theoretical builds based on what we know about the new system?

nope, don't know enough for multiclass builds
don't know what each prestige will have and at what level as well as the pt requirements

[kingfisher]

nope, don't know enough for multiclass builds
don't know what each prestige will have and at what level as well as the pt requirements

or if the stupid tree limit is still in place

[Blayster]

or if the stupid tree limit is still in place
Don't know if that was mentioned before, if that has been there for a long time, but I will mention that anyways:
- Esc
- Options
- Key Mapping
- Look for "Enhancements", between Epic Destinies and Map Panel
- Set a shortcut
- Use shortcut
- Enjoy the Race + 3 PrE.

[Blayster]

Don't know if that was mentioned before, if that has been there for a long time, but I will mention that anyways:
- Esc
- Options
- Key Mapping
- Look for "Enhancements", between Epic Destinies and Map Panel
- Set a shortcut
- Use shortcut
- Enjoy the Race + 3 PrE.
"And then there was silence..."

[EllisDee37]

I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

[emptysands]

Don't know if that was mentioned before, if that has been there for a long time, but I will mention that anyways:
- Esc
- Options
- Key Mapping
- Look for "Enhancements", between Epic Destinies and Map Panel
- Set a shortcut
- Use shortcut
- Enjoy the Race + 3 PrE.

Shame it is blank.

[Glenalth]

"And then there was silence..."

It is huge.

[Failedlegend]

Don't know if that was mentioned before, if that has been there for a long time, but I will mention that anyways:
- Esc
- Options
- Key Mapping
- Look for "Enhancements", between Epic Destinies and Map Panel
- Set a shortcut
- Use shortcut
- Enjoy the Race + 3 PrE.

Well I guess its pointless to argue with, they already put it in the game so much for "Let's Talk"

[kingfisher]

"And then there was silence..."

yeah yeah this steaming pile of dog**** is prolly what they are going to shove through regardless of how dumb it is. yeah it prolly explains why none of the devs have posted in here.
no its not final, cause its incomplete, so yes there is still hope they dont completely finish wowifying ddo by uploading said steaming pile of dog**** onto the live servers.
yeah that hope is slim.
and yeah it sucks donkey balls.

*resume said silence*

[Ebondevil]

Don't know if that was mentioned before, if that has been there for a long time, but I will mention that anyways:
- Esc
- Options
- Key Mapping
- Look for "Enhancements", between Epic Destinies and Map Panel
- Set a shortcut
- Use shortcut
- Enjoy the Race + 3 PrE.
Well I guess its pointless to argue with, they already put it in the game so much for "Let's Talk"

It would most likely have been designed/coded/implemented for the Mournlands server for preview there and testing. I suspect it slipped through into the live build by mistake, doesn't mean it is final or that there's no point discussing it.

[Blayster]

It would most likely have been designed/coded/implemented for the Mournlands server for preview there and testing. I suspect it slipped through into the live build by mistake, doesn't mean it is final or that there's no point discussing it.
Unless you suppose they could "accidentally" slip in an old version of the enhancements UI, this is the most recent UI which was available at Mournlands by the time of the last client update. Which was 20 August.

Supposing that they would take one whole month for discussing and implementing and sending it to Mournlands, every suggestion concerning the trees limit proposed before, let us say, 20 July, was discarded, ignored, disregarded.

This bitter feeling of abandon could have been easily washed away if only a dev would come here and say "hey guys, just chill down, we are still working and considering the options". The only reason I see for a dev not coming here and doing this is because... they are not considering the options. Whatever is their choice, it is already more or less decided at the moment. Oh guess what... we have found what is what is more or less decided at the moment!

They call me Lawliet sometimes.

[Vargouille]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

[Chai]

EQ sucking worse that Turbine does not excuse the poor quality control of the recent releases.

We are not crying wolf, Turbine is that bad.

None of the consistent complainers in this game would have made it in the earlier MMOs, or in many of the ones that are out now for that matter. People who consistently complain would get modded right off most boards once the mods saw a pattern in their posting habbits. Im not talking about justification, Im talking about comparing and contrasting the habbits of games many people tout the grass is greener on the other side in, versus this game.

When the same people say Turbine is that bad, and have been saying so for 4-6 years now in some cases, its pretty consistent and pattern based as it gets at this point, and did not just start with "recent releases". I call it crying wolf because when an issue does surface that they should receive that level of negative feedback over - which in turn draws the attention of the people who can fix the issue - it doesnt draw their attention due to people being so desensitized to pattern based ranting that it just looks like another day at the office.

Consider the LR bug where people have had all their epic XP and favor drained. This is a serious issue - more serious than most, and it certainly hasnt gotten the attention it deserves. Why? Because the complaining about it looks and sounds just like all the pattern based complaining about far less serious issues, and gets ignored. Crying wolf, ladies and gentleorcs.

[Chai]

I see your reasoning here, sir, but let me add something. If Turbine follows a Customer Service policy like 99% other companies, the forums are nothing but a façade. The staff responsible for making us feel like they care is not the same staff that fix the issues. We complain here, someone read them and only the 2% of the complains that "matters" are really forwarded to be discussed seriously by the ones who can fix it.

In other words complaining here only makes the forum administrator's life harder, not the developers themselves.

Should I wait a dev comment saying "Of course you're wrong Blayster, we surely care and personally evaluate carefully every single line of what you guys write down here in the forums"?

Most forums are in place so that users can help eachother and do not ONLY have the company to contact when they need help.

Turbine has its own CS separate from the forums.

[Karavek]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

And dont rush it guys, we know you can DO THIS RIGHT, take your time, talk to RL GMs on various PnP game related forums to trouble shoot things, trust me when I say over the course of decades there is very little experience PnP GMs have not seen players try.

Discuss ideas of which PRCs from the source books you guys are considering well in advance to get feed back on if they would be useful for how we play DDO.

For example had I been running a non evil campaign as we do in DDO Id never of allowed Pale Masters, Assassins, nor frenzied berserkers into the game. Id of probably focussed on more heroic and noble PRC as sources for conversion since that is the game we play.

Id hope you would actually remove them come the Enhancment pass, perhaps leaving undead forms as general enhancment lines for all casters as in PnP lich clerics for example are quite commonplace. This lets those used to that play style keep it while removing the actually evil orientated PRE. Infact perhaps make it so if you take the form your alignment is read as EVIL for in game purposes as well which could provide a new array of challenges to overcome.

Also consider more multi class friendly PRE lines please. For example one of the most popular I see used in my table top d20 sessions is the Arcane trickster, a PRC that gives full casting progression and sneak attack dice for its 10 lvls. This would be an incredible boon to the many rogue/wizard players currently out there.

Just keep up the work guys and know even though we get loud and frustrated at times we are counting on you guys to pull off the impossible and oft thankless task of providing a semblance of D&D in an online environment.

[Gratch]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Any chance you'll put the new enhancements on Lama soonish... aka 2012? I don't even mind if one or two content updates appear at the same time and only the content updates move to live. Would nice to see something so we can "give constructive thoughts" in a greater cycle than hotfix/patch/content updates on Lama provide. Hopefully this also helps the enhancement update to hit with fewer bugs. Or is that a nightmare for the release/build/test people since Lama previewers would be testing with a different enhancement system?

[Karavek]

None of the consistent complainers in this game would have made it in the earlier MMOs, or in many of the ones that are out now for that matter. People who consistently complain would get modded right off most boards once the mods saw a pattern in their posting habbits. Im not talking about justification, Im talking about comparing and contrasting the habbits of games many people tout the grass is greener on the other side in, versus this game.

When the same people say Turbine is that bad, and have been saying so for 4-6 years now in some cases, its pretty consistent and pattern based as it gets at this point, and did not just start with "recent releases". I call it crying wolf because when an issue does surface that they should receive that level of negative feedback over - which in turn draws the attention of the people who can fix the issue - it doesnt draw their attention due to people being so desensitized to pattern based ranting that it just looks like another day at the office.

Consider the LR bug where people have had all their epic XP and favor drained. This is a serious issue - more serious than most, and it certainly hasnt gotten the attention it deserves. Why? Because the complaining about it looks and sounds just like all the pattern based complaining about far less serious issues, and gets ignored. Crying wolf, ladies and gentleorcs.

Sorry most companies use unpayed interns to deal with forums, I have seen this done in several offices over the years. Its a thankless job to be sure all for a few sentences on a future resume. However to say they ignore serious issues because of our vocal annoyances over other previous issues is not an acceptable excuse.

Trying to say Those frustrated with DDO are all first time MMOers with little early MMO experience is silly. I dabbled in EQ1 but it was simply a waste of an idea to me. It wasnt until CoH came out some months before WoW that I found a worthy MMO to leave the world of MuDs for and even give less time to the table top and dice rolling.

Many MMO have had their ups and downs, many companies have dropped the ball even worse then turbine has in some of its more infamous moments, but being the lesser of two evils does not suddenly change your alignment to good.

[Phemt81]

and dont rush it guys, we know you can do this right, take your time

You stole my words.

[Chai]

Sorry most companies use unpayed interns to deal with forums, I have seen this done in several offices over the years. Its a thankless job to be sure all for a few sentences on a future resume. However to say they ignore serious issues because of our vocal annoyances over other previous issues is not an acceptable excuse.

Naaaa - most companies use employees who have other duties than sitting ona forum for 8+ hours a day with moderating being their only job description. Ive worked for and modded for a few of them myself.


Trying to say Those frustrated with DDO are all first time MMOers with little early MMO experience is silly. I dabbled in EQ1 but it was simply a waste of an idea to me. It wasnt until CoH came out some months before WoW that I found a worthy MMO to leave the world of MuDs for and even give less time to the table top and dice rolling.

They would have never made it in another MMO. Its not silly, its fact. First off, this game by far is guiltiest of allowing people to come onto their forums and pee and man about every little thing. Most other MMOs would have modded off 95% of this trolling in a heartbeat sans explanation or batting an eyelash. Then theres the little myth about this game having more bugs than any other MMO - which only those uneducated about other MMOs spew.


Many MMO have had their ups and downs, many companies have dropped the ball even worse then turbine has in some of its more infamous moments, but being the lesser of two evils does not suddenly change your alignment to good.

Never said it did - but speaking of transmutation, the forumites around these parts have become pretty good at turning mole hills into mountains. When a real mountain does show up, it simply looks like every other mountain to those whose attention they are trying to draw to the issue.

[Missing_Minds]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Most players are agreeable to not rushing....

but.... Do you realize how... very upset players are getting?

Start posting dev diaries if you don't want to have an open forum dialog.
Start posting ideas and thoughts of what will be happening.
Start to post concepts of what the unknown PrEs that have been named will do.

You can put in what isn't in existence now, like spellsinger III and make it weaker than what it would be, but you would still be giving players ideas!

How many years, Turbine... how many years?

[kingfisher]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

post of the year

[-Avalon-]

From what I have seen, the worst part of multiclassing in DDO is that certain things don't work the correct way... for instance, if someone played a 14 Pal/6 Clr, and took US ED all the way up, it SHOULD be giving that person casting ability = 19 Pal/11 Clr... which means the toon should have access to max level pallie spells AND 5th lvl Clr spells...

I don't think it works that way for ED's... I know this is a little off-topic, but keep up, it will reconnect...

As long as there is a disconnect on abilities like that, adding real MC PrE's will be very difficult... It is easy for someone like Rogue with sneak attack MC with another melee... but consider the Arcane Knight PRC that adds levels of casting to the arcane part... In DDO, it would simply add 'caster level' which isn't the same thing at all. A pure mix Arcane Knight would be something like 7 Ftr/7 Wiz/6 AK in PnP, and have a decent BAB, decent HP, able to use Heavy Armor, good feats, and be able to cast as a 10th level Wiz (access to 5th lvl spells, not 4th lvl (like a 7 Wiz has) with a 10th lvl Caster Level)...

If they add in true MC PrE's right now, I don't even know how they would do it, unless they were VERY synergistic classes to begin with, and in that case, Tempest is a MC PrE... KotC and HoD are as well... true MC PrE's would allow classes that are very different to blend better (giving the game much more diversity, which Turbine says they support and like!), but would require a mechanic to be added to the game that is not currently existent... Adding actual spell levels AND caster levels to classes that are not leveling up.

Like Mystic Theurge... MT1 would require Lvl 1 Spell-Casting Ability (both Divine AND Arcane), Minimum Lvl: 6... but would give +1 Caster Level - Divine & Arcane... but it would open up secondary enhancements (probably 2 pts each) "+1 Spell Casting Level - Divine" and "+1 Spell Casting Level - Arcane"... MT2 would add additional +1 (total +2) caster level, and have 4 pt secondaries +1 Spell level's... MT3 would be an extension of the previous...

At 20, a 14 Wiz/6 Clr with MT3 (and having spent 30 AP) would have a caster level/spell caster level, of 17 Wiz/9 Clr... so, able to cast 9th lvl Wiz, and 5th lvl Clr spells, have SP equal to a 14/6 though...

No clue, but the mechanic would have to be added to actually raise spell casting level of the classes before true MC PrE's could be added...

[Dolphious]

"Take your time, do it right" is fine, but now that this has been put out as something that's in the works, it's only natural that people will be interested in whats going on and where it's at. Maybe it would have been better if you didn't report that you were working on this a year in advance, but since you did you really owe it to the community to maintain some kind of (at least) semi-regular updates.

While I'm of course bummed that it's not going to be coming out soon, I do appreciate updates to that effect. At least we now have some idea that it's probably not happening in the next few months, which is more than we new before (the last info was that it was slated for u16, which seems to be clearly not the case now).

[Failedlegend]

Most players are agreeable to not rushing....

but.... Do you realize how... very upset players are getting?

Start posting dev diaries if you don't want to have an open forum dialog.
Start posting ideas and thoughts of what will be happening.
Start to post concepts of what the unknown PrEs that have been named will do.

You can put in what isn't in existence now, like spellsinger III and make it weaker than what it would be, but you would still be giving players ideas!

How many years, Turbine... how many years?

100% agreed no need to rush like I've said I don't care if it takes another year or more...just keep us updated...its impossible to provide new feedback without knowing what the current plans are...were smart enough to know everything is subject to change.

The main issue is the last news we heard was 6 Months ago and than the "goal (again subject to change) was with the expansion now we have no idea...makes playing new characters really iffy.

[SirValentine]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.


Should we expect them to take about as long as Druid did? :-)

[Missing_Minds]

From what I have seen, the worst part of multiclassing in DDO is that certain things don't work the correct way... for instance, if someone played a 14 Pal/6 Clr, and took US ED all the way up, it SHOULD be giving that person casting ability = 19 Pal/11 Clr... which means the toon should have access to max level pallie spells AND 5th lvl Clr spells...

Actually no.

Class level of the caster grants the character more spells. Caster level effects spell penetration, increased duration, # of dice of damage done, etc.

See Practiced Spellcaster, Complete Arcane, 3.5 rules.

[Dolphious]

Should we expect them to take about as long as Druid did? :-)

I'd probably put the over/under at 9 months.

[Aashrym]

I'm interested in what changes are being considered after this much feedback just so we can move forward on better feedback at this point. I'm not a fan of a long wait for filling out our PrE's but after this long already giving it more time for a better implementation would definitely be better.

Also, set up some individual let's talk class enhancement threads. Even though you might not be able to please everybody and would obviously need to have some limitation on what you can do I would think it must be getting to the point the actual enhancements to be implemented are in discussion; likely for a while. I'm sure the forum community has plenty of good suggestions to review and help Turbine brainstorm. And there is potential to learn more about what we want, in general. ;)

[Xezrak]

I'm interested in what changes are being considered after this much feedback just so we can move forward on better feedback at this point. I'm not a fan of a long wait for filling out our PrE's but after this long already giving it more time for a better implementation would definitely be better.

Also, set up some individual let's talk class enhancement threads. Even though you might not be able to please everybody and would obviously need to have some limitation on what you can do I would think it must be getting to the point the actual enhancements to be implemented are in discussion; likely for a while. I'm sure the forum community has plenty of good suggestions to review and help Turbine brainstorm. And there is potential to learn more about what we want, in general. ;)

This, the more time we can provide feed back on balancing issues now, the more attention that can be paid to fixing bugs etc. in Lamannia release versions, which means less issues on live release :)

[-Avalon-]

Actually no.

Class level of the caster grants the character more spells. Caster level effects spell penetration, increased duration, # of dice of damage done, etc.

See Practiced Spellcaster, Complete Arcane, 3.5 rules.

Direct CnP from Mystic Theurge:
"When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day."

So, they get more spells, more spell levels, more caster level... This is pretty much how every PRC with "+1 Spell Level" worked... in DDO, they translated that as "+1 Caster Level" which inadvertently nerfs the power of these mechanics by a HUGE amount...

And yes, I understand that on that page, they define caster level, and bonuses to the caster level... the problem remains that when Turbine adds a PRC to DDO as a PrE/ED, the "+1 Spell Level" mechanic gets CHANGED. If they fixed that, then the power of these great tools for extra character diversity would shine!

Instead, we have more reasons to be 12/6/2, or 18/2, or 12/8... Pretty much every character I have seen come from Hasbro/WotC/TSR/ETC for 3.X looked like a string of numbers... 8/5/1/1/5/2 for levels lol... THAT is called diversity! That guy is ONE of a kind! I understand in DDO we can only have 3 classes, but with the enhancement update, the "every 6 levels" thing is going away (supposedly), as well as the "no more than one PrE per class limit" (supposedly again)...

So, we will have people playing strange combo's of numbers like 15/3/2 or 9/6/5... all depends on what level people decide is THE level of acceptance for a class (like splashing 2 Ftr for the feats, 2 Rog for evasion, 6 Rng for Tempest 1 + twf, etc)...

The only way they could add in MC PrE's that take into account divine or arcane casters, though, is to fix that glaring problem, switch it back to "+1 spell level of existing class" style, or else MC continues to be seen as "gimping your caster"... how many Arcane Knight types end up being seen as sub par casters because they cannot land an insta-kill as well as is needed for EE, and cannot hold up DPS as well as a TWF Paladin/Fighter? Therefore they are seen as gimped...

If there was a PrE that said something like "Must have levels in a melee and arcane class, must have at least 6 levels combined" (for current enhancement methods) and it said it gave +1 spell casting level to the arcane and +1 attack bonus, at 3rd tier would be +3/+3, so it would assist a great deal in bringing MC of Melee/Casting characters into the game. The warpriest would effectively be the "Melee/Divine" version of the Arcane Knight type... so this is a very important factor IMO...

[Vormaerin]

Direct CnP from Mystic Theurge:


Which is nice, but completely irrelevant.

Mystic Theurge is a character class that you take INSTEAD of a regular class. In p&p, you'd be Cleric5/Wizard5/MT10 or something along those lines. You'd cast spells as a lvl 15 cleric and Wizard, but you wouldn't have the bonus Feats, turn undead levels, and so on.

In DDO, you do the 14/6 thing and get the full benefits of those classes PLUS some extra abilities. You aren't substituting anything. You haven't lost any base class abilities to gain the prestige class abilities.



The short version is people are never happy. They have told us they are working on it. They told us that it was delayed indefinitely; first due to additional work going into the EDs and now due to not wanting the same sort of issues they had with EDs.

MadFloyd said that when they had real information, they'd share it with us. Guess what, they don't have real information yet. Instead, we just have a handful of forumites making stuff up and acting like the world is ending over it. Whee.

[Failedlegend]

MadFloyd said that when they had real information, they'd share it with us. Guess what, they don't have real information yet. Instead, we just have a handful of forumites making stuff up and acting like the world is ending over it. Whee.

Were not asking for more information were asking for their thoughts on OUR suggestions so we can continue to give useful feedback BEFORE the plans are more or less set in stone

[TrenchcoatJesus]

None of the consistent complainers in this game would have made it in the earlier MMOs, or in many of the ones that are out now for that matter. People who consistently complain would get modded right off most boards once the mods saw a pattern in their posting habbits. Im not talking about justification, Im talking about comparing and contrasting the habbits of games many people tout the grass is greener on the other side in, versus this game.

When the same people say Turbine is that bad, and have been saying so for 4-6 years now in some cases, its pretty consistent and pattern based as it gets at this point, and did not just start with "recent releases". I call it crying wolf because when an issue does surface that they should receive that level of negative feedback over - which in turn draws the attention of the people who can fix the issue - it doesnt draw their attention due to people being so desensitized to pattern based ranting that it just looks like another day at the office.

Consider the LR bug where people have had all their epic XP and favor drained. This is a serious issue - more serious than most, and it certainly hasnt gotten the attention it deserves. Why? Because the complaining about it looks and sounds just like all the pattern based complaining about far less serious issues, and gets ignored. Crying wolf, ladies and gentleorcs.

Your expectations of Turbine do not match with these "consistent" complainers. But then, when a company releases an expansion pack for between $30-60 these days I have an expectation that content will be... completable. That it will work. That it will not penalize those who play the new content when it is exciting and new because it is wracked with bugs. Or that it will break pre-existing systems entirely, such as the LR bug or even certain heroic elite quest spell and trap damage which I'm still waiting on.

Most people have expectations for their money. You can't begin to have a reasonable conversation if your comparison for expectations is outdated, which for computer technology can cycle in years and months. I could address a complaint about a microwave being defective with "Well, it's still better than a fire pit" but I don't, because that would be unreasonable.

I think it's fantastic that your expectations of Turbine are so low, and an acceptable time frame to fix their content is months or more. You are actually more jaded than the complainers, comparing their service to a worse experience as if that justifies it. Though, to be frank, "it could be worse" or "it's been worse in the past" isn't a very strong argument for anything in my opinion. When you start making that argument, you are grasping at straws.

When you mention those who have consistently complained for years, I think you will find that the same could be said for D&D players. And what you seem to be completely oblivious to is, much as the diehard D&D players, so many of these "whiny complainers" are doing so not to disparage Turbine or DDO for fun (though those types on the internet are rather rampant) but because they care about the game and they have hope that it can and will be better. I am optimistic in thinking that my complaints, which I feel have been adequately justified, are not falling on deaf ears over at Turbine because they have the same hopes and aspirations.

Is it a perfect world? No. Just like any DM, Turbine's job of managing DDO is a balancing act of what should be fun for its players with a sense of balance and fairness, with of course the added difficulty of the MMO platform. As a player, your role is not passive, you give feedback to your DM all the time to give them a sense of what is fun for you and what isn't. And while DDO, like DMs, cannot cater to just one player (or subset of players) it should make an effort to address the feedback it receives. Most especially when it's about aspects of the game that affect every player.

This last point is what is both frustrating and sensitive about the (eventually) upcoming enhancement pass. Turbine has one chance not to screw this up and alienate a huge loyal portion of their player base, and right now all we have to go on is the hope that they won't.

-TcJ

[-Avalon-]

Which is nice, but completely irrelevant.

Mystic Theurge is a character class that you take INSTEAD of a regular class. In p&p, you'd be Cleric5/Wizard5/MT10 or something along those lines. You'd cast spells as a lvl 15 cleric and Wizard, but you wouldn't have the bonus Feats, turn undead levels, and so on.

In DDO, you do the 14/6 thing and get the full benefits of those classes PLUS some extra abilities. You aren't substituting anything. You haven't lost any base class abilities to gain the prestige class abilities.



The short version is people are never happy. They have told us they are working on it. They told us that it was delayed indefinitely; first due to additional work going into the EDs and now due to not wanting the same sort of issues they had with EDs.

MadFloyd said that when they had real information, they'd share it with us. Guess what, they don't have real information yet. Instead, we just have a handful of forumites making stuff up and acting like the world is ending over it. Whee.

And how is that irrelevant? 14/6 is neither 15 or 15! 5 Wiz/5 Clr/10 MT would be 15, right? Well, your example fails that test completely on BOTH sides. Plus, in DDO, PrE's are only 3 levels deep (so far)... so there is no good/balanced way to make MT as powerful as it should be. But claiming a 12 Wiz(AM or PM)/8 Clr (RaS) (let alone what your example was... 14/6) is anything close to 15/15? Even though they would still only have 2 bonus feats from wizard, 5 lvl wiz HP, 5 lvl Clr Hp, and 10 Lvl MT hp...

At least with my idea a 12 Wiz/8 Clr ends up being a 15 Wiz/11 Clr... MUCH closer to 15/15 than your attempt at saying that they needed to change the mechanic is irrelevant... I am not complaining at all, btw, I am merely stating an observation. I love almost all of what the game is already. But I am not naive enough to think that the mechanics of the game are conducive certain aspects that players want in the game. The game will continue to be very straightforward in character builds as long as those mechanics are present (or unchanged). Tanks will be tanks, DPS will be DPS, Casters will be Casters, Healer will be Healers...

Check the builds online and the builds actually being used in EE content... at most, they are 1-5% different from each other (of the same role in the group/raid)... That is not true D&D, or even remotely close to it. That is much closer to EQ, WoW, Rift, etc... Facade of customization, reality of cookie-cutter. I am not so naive as to be blind to that fact. If people (or Turbine) really wants diversity, they need to stop trying to be so different from what works on PnP, and start emulating it.

But, either way, it does not bother me in the least, I play my "gimped" PM Melee Arcane Knight type, and just do my best to make it so efficiently built that it is actually useful (even if less useful than others) in groups.

[Missing_Minds]

Direct CnP from Mystic Theurge:
"When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class

And right there is where you stop. Mystic Theurge is a PrC. CLASS.

As a Class it is granting you those extra spells.

As stated, Caster level is NOT the same as a character level. Caster levels do not grant you extra spells.

Caster levels are being applied correctly in the aspect that they are not granting more spells or spell points.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm
============

Caster Level

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

[-Avalon-]

And right there is where you stop. Mystic Theurge is a PrC. CLASS.

As a Class it is granting you those extra spells.

As stated, Caster level is NOT the same as a character level. Caster levels do not grant you extra spells.

Caster levels are being applied correctly in the aspect that they are not granting more spells or spell points.

Yes, but you are missing the entire point /sigh

PRC's usually have 10 lvls, PrE's only have 3 (so far)... so a PrE has to get the player approximately 3 lvls of abilities in one lvl...

Arcane Archer(D&D):
Abilities by Lvl 10 of PRC: Enhance Arrow +5, Imbue Arrow, Seeker Arrow, Phase Arrow, Hail of Arrows, Arrow of Death.

Arcane Archer(DDO):
Abilities by Lvl 3 of PrE: Conjure +5 Arrows (WAY more powerful, don't even need to HAVE arrows! AND they RETURN!), True Strike (not even given by D&D PRC), Imbue Arrows (with all sorts of stuff, don't have to even have the spell in question, and some are AoE), and Slaying Arrows, and does not have to sacrifice levels in other classes while the character gets these benefits.

Sorry, but I think I would MUCH rather have the DDO version of the prestige than the D&D one!

The point is that to add true MC PrE's to the game, would require giving them an equal amount of gain for the 3 levels of PrE that other PrE's enjoy. And only giving them "+1 Caster Level" would not suffice.

Imagine Arcane Trickster (previously mentioned) done that way... The sneak attack stacks perfectly with rogue levels, they continue getting same skills every level as rogues (just half the pts)... they get ranged rogue skill use (ex. DD at 30 feet away), impromptu SA, and +1 Spell Level of Existing Class every level (so +10)

on a 3 level system like DDO, it would be 1d6 SA, 2d6 SA, 3d6 SA that stacks with what they already have, no need for skills because it isn't a class, probably bonuses to skills instead (like Assassin gets), a clicky ability to do SA damage even if there is no way to do SA at the time, and +3 caster level?

Yep... Sorry, but if you look at the D&D version, it balances both Rogue and Arcane class perfectly... look at what would be in DDO given current ways of thinking and mechanics... the rogue is about 90% of the PrE, simply because +3 caster levels really does not mean much to people who are already MC outside of their spell casting class!

Yes, +3 Caster Level would mean the world to someone who is 20 Wiz, 5 Magister... because they now have a HUGE DC for pretty much any and every spell... but someone who goes 12 Wiz/8 Rog and gets AT3... what does it really benefit? Their DCs are so low that 3 higher makes no difference, and most of their spells wouldn't be all that more damaging either (chain lightning now does 3d3 more damage??)

Whereas, if they get 3 more Spell Casting Level, like they should... they would be 15 Wizard effectively, and have 8th lvl spells, the better DC, more SP to cast the spells, but still miss the extra feat at 15 from Wizard (just like how it should be)...

I really think you are missing the point entirely. The point is to BREAK the mold, not find yet another way to get cozy inside of it... Everyone likes to say, "If you want your Holy Trinity, there are plenty of other games out there, DDO is not like that!"... but ask yourself, in the top content at end game... aren't there Tanks? Aren't the Tanks... fighters, paladins, barbarians? Aren't there DPS? Aren't there Healers? And if you look at the roles, they almost always conform to a specific set of expectations on builds...

DDO is supposed to be different, and players are wanting it to be that different game. The devs are making a tree-based enhancement system... not to WoW-ify the game, but to simplify and clarify the enhancements so the system does not scare away new players trying to check things out. By doing so, they will add a new level of customization to the game as well!

But, someone before asked about adding PrE's like Arcane Trickster (because it blends a casting class and a non-casting class together!)... well, under current mechanics, the result would be very dull and bland, and probably be worse than just going 20 rogue and getting Assassin 3... If they change things to be more in line with how it should be, it could be VERY useful though...

EDIT: and as for the EDIT you added plus the info already there... Notice that Assassin gives +d6's of SA? Yeah? Ok, the CLASS gives those... in addition to other abilities, it adds power to almost every attack a rogue makes (if they are worth anything at least)... The Assassin PrE gets almost every single ability the PRC gets (minus SPELLS, because the mechanic is not in the game to do so!) But then, the PrE is WAY more powerful on the assassinate/poisons... so it equals out... (10+Assassin Lvl+Int Mod (much lower possibility in PnP usually); vs 10+Rogue Lvl+Int Mod (where people are able to get to 40 Int a lot of times)) Yeah... PrE is MUCH better than the PRC...

So, kid yourself all you want and say all is fine, but anyone that wants to do MC across the caster/non-caster gap has a very hard road to travel because of the way things work in DDO as opposed to what is commonly found in PnP D&D.

[Missing_Minds]

Yes, but you are missing the entire point /sigh
No you've missed the point of Enhancements while making the assumption they should be as powerful as Classes.

You've also missed the understanding of the coding interaction difficulties of a real time environment for the world vs. controlling a table top turn based environment for a single group.

You've also tried to change the argument into PrE that we should have PrCs vs sticking with the supposed issue of caster levels granted by EDs.


From what I have seen, the worst part of multiclassing in DDO is that certain things don't work the correct way... for instance, if someone played a 14 Pal/6 Clr, and took US ED all the way up, it SHOULD be giving that person casting ability = 19 Pal/11 Clr... which means the toon should have access to max level pallie spells AND 5th lvl Clr spells...

You have been shown that your understanding was wrong. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

If you want to argue for actual PrCs... Go for it. You'll find there is a better reception for such, more than likely. I know I'd rather have PrCs rather than enhancements, but I know that won't be happening in this house.

[fourrumtest]

"When the same people say Turbine is that bad, and have been saying so for 4-6 years now in some cases, its pretty consistent and pattern based as it gets at this point, and did not just start with "recent releases". I call it crying wolf because when an issue does surface that they should receive that level of negative feedback over - which in turn draws the attention of the people who can fix the issue - it doesnt draw their attention due to people being so desensitized to pattern based ranting that it just looks like another day at the office.

Consider the LR bug where people have had all their epic XP and favor drained. This is a serious issue - more serious than most, and it certainly hasnt gotten the attention it deserves. Why? Because the complaining about it looks and sounds just like all the pattern based complaining about far less serious issues, and gets ignored. Crying wolf, ladies and gentleorcs."


um let me make sure i understand this. its because a group of players complained to much, that is the reason turbine will sitll not oficialy respond to the lr issue?

stockholm much?

i dont care who complained how many times, for how many years. i want turbine to do something that makes me feel like they give half a flip about the lr bug, the pets bug, the ladders, hell prove to me they care about any of the bugs that dont give xp and loot to players.

or buy stating that am i asking to be neglected more?

[Talias006]

Caught up with this a bit late and I'm intrigued by both sides arguments.

Now, imagine if they created PrE's based on PrC's.
The idea is still the same, because they're Prestige Enhancements, but implemented differently.

What prerequisites would be okay to allow +1 Spell Level (or Caster Level) to a class like a proposed Mystic Theurge?
Ability to cast level 2 Arcane/Divine spells and level 1 Divine/Arcane spells?
That would allow Sorcerers and Favored Souls to gain benefit from this as easily as Wizards and Clerics. Or Artificers and Druids, for that matter.

Personally, I would be happy with just Caster level increases as long as they bring these MC PrE's to life.

[-Avalon-]

You have been shown that your understanding was wrong. There is nothing further to discuss about it.

I love when people try this tactic... basically saying, "I win, because I decided you were wrong"... if only real life worked that way :rolleyes:

As for me trying to change the topic or whatever you meant by that, no I did not. I was showing examples of how EVERY PrE we have emulates PRC's almost exactly (if not making them MORE powerful) without taking extra classes or levels. If they are all like that, then why is it wrong to expect future ones to be the same? Why is it wrong to expect the MC versions to emulate the PRC's they are based on as well as the CURRENT ones do?

You really don't get it... The melee PrE's give benefits that stack perfectly with the melee abilities perfectly (for most part), the caster ones that emulate PRC's give extra SP and spell power to show equivalence with "+1 Spell Level"... the only problem is that the melee ones actually boost the power of the character as if they HAD gained levels (Kensei giving +1 Hit/Damage? Assassin giving +1d6 SA?)... Where the caster gets more power not just off having higher caster level, but getting better spells!

That is the reason that PRC's gave more spell casting level and all that... If you want to boil the PRC's down to simple benefits without emulating extra levels, the assassin should only give bonuses to skills, poison use, and assassinate ability... Kensei should just give bonuses to tactical abilities, etc...

Instead, we have PrE's that DO emulate gaining levels in PRC's (which in turn emulate gaining levels in the original class!)... so, no, it is not wrong of anyone to think that if they add MC PrE's, then they should do the same. Asking, or expecting, them to do any different, is to also ask for balancing issues between the classes.

[patang01]

As much as I'd like all the PrEs tomorrow, I also don't want another expansion fiasco with incomplete content, stuff that don't work and sometimes make things even worse.

The expansion pack came with a set date; it was a unrealistic expectation based on a hard coded date that blew up in their face. While I love the FR stuff I hate the duplication of features that makes the game worse; like a raid that had severe cramps and still feels like it has the worst features the game can offer. Ontop of that raid loot with random features that'll break your heart - just as the Cormyrian challenge loot does.

I really don't want that experience again and not while going through the hassle of doing a LR to be able to get the benefit of a PrE that might be severely borked.

As much as 'now' sounds about right, I'd like it eventually and in a kind of shape that don't give me nightmares like the destiny mess have been.

[Blayster]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

It is true that some (most?) people here are crying out of loud (let us call 'em Team A), and that would justify the silence of devs - why discussing with these people after all? However, if Vargouille and MadFloyd have read at least 20% of this thread, they know the existence of the minority Team B, which is supporting them, giving serious suggestions and telling them "don't hurry up".

Giving no feedback to Team B means that you are not considering suggestions, either because the development is just 100% stalled or because devs completely dislike current suggestions.

All in all, the odds are that no change has been done in the trees limit sense and that is almost obvious. Devs had everything planned even before this thread start, but they didn't see the fiasco of the trees limit coming. We shown that; we proposed suggestions; suggestions which imply the rewrite/rebalance of everything... meh, too much work. It won't be done. There is just no other reason for the devs silence.

[Syllph]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Good. Please don't release them till they are working and polished. I'd rather wait then have a half working product.

[Failedlegend]

Imagine Arcane Trickster (previously mentioned) done that way... The sneak attack stacks perfectly with rogue levels, they continue getting same skills every level as rogues (just half the pts)... they get ranged rogue skill use (ex. DD at 30 feet away), impromptu SA, and +1 Spell Level of Existing Class every level (so +10)

on a 3 level system like DDO, it would be 1d6 SA, 2d6 SA, 3d6 SA that stacks with what they already have, no need for skills because it isn't a class, probably bonuses to skills instead (like Assassin gets), a clicky ability to do SA damage even if there is no way to do SA at the time, and +3 caster level?

Yep... Sorry, but if you look at the D&D version, it balances both Rogue and Arcane class perfectly... look at what would be in DDO given current ways of thinking and mechanics... the rogue is about 90% of the PrE, simply because +3 caster levels really does not mean much to people who are already MC outside of their spell casting class!


None of the PrEs in DDO are direct copies of the source material as alot of things just don't work in an MMO or are conducive to the active combat system, although some still remain (ie. alot of abilities that are a single attacks like smites, true strike, sniper shot,etc.) so Arcane Trickster would be adjusted to work within the context of the game...a cool way to do it would be something like "When in a situation where SA would be applied your CL/SR are treated as if you had all Arcane levels" (works similar to flurry of blows except for Cl/SR instead of BAB) also don't forget the ability to add any SA damage on ranged touch attacks (ie. All the ray spells)...would probably work best as a stance.

As for balancing out here's what I came up with earlier (with suggestions from others)...I used Swiftblade here but AT could easily be subbed in. So to take a "Hybrid" PrE you would have to "Lock-in" the 2 pre-req PrEs which if you look below you can see ranges from specific pre all the way to power source as well as the level pre-req to gain access to it. This works with both the current 3-Tree system, the suggested 3 +1 tree per extra class system and the unlimited trees but can only choose 3 to gain PrE abilities in.



Using Swiftblade (and using the Tempest Template) I'll show you what I mean by "Hybrid" PrEs
The Requirements:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 3% Dodge
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 6% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 1[W] Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 To-Hit & Reflex Save, 10% Dodge, All Hits deal an extra 2[W] Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble, Full BAB,etc...some of which would only apply while hasted.

Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons. (Outside of the new system it could be purely class based)


A few other Examples (Note: to gain access to the hybrid PrE you must have at least 1 AP spent in each required PrE (or any PrE of a required class/power source)

Swiftblade: Any Arcane + Martial (Note: Alot of SB abilities require "Haste" to function)

Pirate Captain: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight: Palemaster + Paladin

?????: Arty Master Maker + Rogue Mechanic (This just NEEDS a Hybrid PrE...it just feels right.)

Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

Fist of the Forest: Druid + Monk

I'd like to reiterate that a Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker Hybrid PrE !!MUST!! be made...Self-Forged could be an option..with bonuses to fort and ability to be repair (with some heal amp penalties of course), the ability to utilize docents (as well as any other armor their proficient in), possibly some immunities, Con Bonus, etc.




It is true that some (most?) people here are crying out of loud (let us call 'em Team A), and that would justify the silence of devs - why discussing with these people after all? However, if Vargouille and MadFloyd have read at least 20% of this thread, they know the existence of the minority Team B, which is supporting them, giving serious suggestions and telling them "don't hurry up".

Giving no feedback to Team B means that you are not considering suggestions, either because the development is just 100% stalled or because devs completely dislike current suggestions.

All in all, the odds are that no change has been done in the trees limit sense and that is almost obvious. Devs had everything planned even before this thread start, but they didn't see the fiasco of the trees limit coming. We shown that; we proposed suggestions; suggestions which imply the rewrite/rebalance of everything.


Very much Team B here although lately frustration has me slipping into Team A occasionally. Although despite the silence my hope is that the reason its pretty much indefinately delayed is because of our feedback and its back to the drawing board, just wish we knew what they were planning now so we could provide feedback to the new direction (assuming I'm right :P) as opposed to still commenting on the originally proposed system+player made guesses/assumptions

[Cashiry]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

He seems to be a little annoyed by this comment or I could just be reading into it. Go drink a beer and relax. :cool:

We know you will get it done correctly. :D

[Failedlegend]

He seems to be a little annoyed by this comment or I could just be reading into it. Go drink a beer and relax. :cool:

We know you will get it done correctly. :D

I think he was just trying to say it with as little "flavor text" as possible to try and avoid misunderstandings...we all know how some people pick apart devs posts looking for...well anything.

[Missing_Minds]

I love when people try this tactic... basically saying, "I win, because I decided you were wrong"... if only real life worked that way :rolleyes:
Luckily for you, it does work that way. Only I didn't decide you were wrong, published rules/guidelines did.

[Silverleafeon]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Thank you for letting us know.

Good luck with your working on the enhancement, its a big things.

We all wait with great hope...

[Blayster]

I think he was just trying to say it with as little "flavor text" as possible to try and avoid misunderstandings...we all know how some people pick apart devs posts looking for...well anything.
If his intention was to hide information then he failed; he not only made it clear that this UI was already available by the time of U14 (25 June) but hinted that something changed between U14 and U15 but was not aired (even in Mournlands?) yet.

I am here just for the fun though. I would prefer big changes to come after april 2013, when I will have some more time to relax and rethink builds.

[Schmoe]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Sad news. I think it was 2009 when the goal was to have all PrE fleshed out? So does this mean another three years of onesy-twosy PrE's, or three years of nothing, since it's a complete overhaul? If not even the designs are final, that means there is still a lot of work to be done.

[Aashrym]

As for me trying to change the topic or whatever you meant by that, no I did not. I was showing examples of how EVERY PrE we have emulates PRC's almost exactly (if not making them MORE powerful) without taking extra classes or levels. If they are all like that, then why is it wrong to expect future ones to be the same? Why is it wrong to expect the MC versions to emulate the PRC's they are based on as well as the CURRENT ones do?

You really don't get it... The melee PrE's give benefits that stack perfectly with the melee abilities perfectly (for most part), the caster ones that emulate PRC's give extra SP and spell power to show equivalence with "+1 Spell Level"... the only problem is that the melee ones actually boost the power of the character as if they HAD gained levels (Kensei giving +1 Hit/Damage? Assassin giving +1d6 SA?)... Where the caster gets more power not just off having higher caster level, but getting better spells!

That is the reason that PRC's gave more spell casting level and all that... If you want to boil the PRC's down to simple benefits without emulating extra levels, the assassin should only give bonuses to skills, poison use, and assassinate ability... Kensei should just give bonuses to tactical abilities, etc...

Instead, we have PrE's that DO emulate gaining levels in PRC's (which in turn emulate gaining levels in the original class!)... so, no, it is not wrong of anyone to think that if they add MC PrE's, then they should do the same. Asking, or expecting, them to do any different, is to also ask for balancing issues between the classes.

Melee class progression is far more linear that caster class progression. I believe what you are describing would increase that gap in class progression and create worse class imbalances.

DM's have the right to modify or exclude features in their games. The difference between +1d6 SA and more high level spells is a big difference and adding enhancements or PrE's that compound issues like that would be bad for the game, IMO.

[maddmatt70]

Updated enhancements are not almost here. Designs are not final. They'll be released when they are ready.

The recently discussed and discovered UI isn't a sign of any "new" developments, and has likely been accidentally there since Update 14.

Thank you for posting this. Sometimes its something as simple as for e.g. hey updated enhancements are not going to be ready next week and it could take sometime for them to be released which is invaluable to players. Now I know with your post that we are looking at a 4+ month timeframe and can adjust my plans accordingly. More posts like this are great because they let us know where things are in game and we the players can do something in response to when things will be released.

I decided that I needed another dps character with the adrenaline nerf to ranged combat so trrd one of my three bards into a rogue and with the 4+ month wait until enhancements are here it was worthwhile for me to do so even with the uncertainty surrounding race/class enhancements.

[Failedlegend]

I am here just for the fun though. I would prefer big changes to come after april 2013, when I will have some more time to relax and rethink builds.

I dare them to release it on April 1st


Thank you for posting this. Sometimes its something as simple as for e.g. hey updated enhancements are not going to be ready next week and it could take sometime for them to be released which is invaluable to players. Now I know with your post that we are looking at a 4+ month timeframe and can adjust my plans accordingly. More posts like this are great because they let us know where things are in game and we the players can do something in response to when things will be released.

I decided that I needed another dps character with the adrenaline nerf to ranged combat so trrd one of my three bards into a rogue and with the 4+ month wait until enhancements are here it was worthwhile for me to do so even with the uncertainty surrounding race/class enhancements.

QFT

[Schmoe]

Thank you for posting this. Sometimes its something as simple as for e.g. hey updated enhancements are not going to be ready next week and it could take sometime for them to be released which is invaluable to players. Now I know with your post that we are looking at a 4+ month timeframe and can adjust my plans accordingly. More posts like this are great because they let us know where things are in game and we the players can do something in response to when things will be released.

I decided that I needed another dps character with the adrenaline nerf to ranged combat so trrd one of my three bards into a rogue and with the 4+ month wait until enhancements are here it was worthwhile for me to do so even with the uncertainty surrounding race/class enhancements.

I'm very glad to hear real communication from Turbine on this. I appreciate it. But the 4 month timeframe is way too optimistic. Consider this:

U16 (October/November) is next, which means that it is currently in testing.
The developers are working on the next updates after U16, so 17 (December/Jan) and 18 (Feb/March), which means that any major system work they are doing is targeted for U18.
Since designs aren't yet final for the enhancement pass, that means that it's highly unlikely it would make it for the 17/18 updates, which means that the earliest we would see it is the U19 (April/May) and U20 (June/July) batch, which puts it into July of 2013.

And that assumes first that they are able to finalize designs soon, and second that each update takes no more than 2 months. I wouldn't expect the enhancement overhaul to be live any time before fall of 2013.

[-Avalon-]

Luckily for you, it does work that way. Only I didn't decide you were wrong, published rules/guidelines did.

Actually, what you did was pull the definition of "caster level" to prove what is already currently in the game... which, if you notice, I said would need to be REMOVED or CHANGED. Meaning, I understand how it IS, but I also understand how it should be!

I pulled out the definition of "spell casting level" and showed examples where it exists, and said this is how it should be to keep classes balanced properly. So, no, the rules/guidelines do not prove me wrong, they prove me very right. There is a VAST difference between what is in the game and what exists in PnP.

You seem to be one of the people that is so comfortable inside the box, that anyone who dares look outside the box should be crushed and punished?

The game currently uses caster level in lieu of spell casting level on pretty much everything that would increase spell casting level in PnP. On the other hand, everything that is melee oriented gets translated almost exactly, so melees lose no power at all, while casters will continue to fall behind.

When game first came out, there was a max lvl of 10, sorcerers and wizards were DPS, along with rogues... because there was almost no way a fighter or paladin could match even close to the DPS of those classes. Crowd control was almost never thought of...

As the game progressed, wizards (and sometimes sorcerers, but to a much lesser extent) were looked upon more and more as CC, instead of DPS. Now, casters are either CC or Insta-Kill'ers... DPS is almost laughable for them, because there is no way for them to keep up.

Reason? Melees attack much faster, and do more damage per attack, THEN add in glancing blows, cleaves, g.cleaves, etc... so who is DPS'ing now? Fighters and Paladins seem to be in the top... Rogues can sometimes get in sneak attacks, but with the number of fortified enemies, it is getting less and less... The game has completely flipped on DPS, yet tanking remains in the same hands it always has.

Just look at the history of the game if you think balancing is done correctly. So, no, I don't think it is wrong in any way to expect casters to get what they should be getting. The game is not balanced correctly right now. No wonder why I see more fighters/paladins/barbarians than wizards/rogues/clerics... I am amazed when I see someone with more than 2 rogue levels anymore, and it seems every wizard I see is a palemaster who is meleeing because it does more damage than their spells do!

So, stay inside your box if you want... I am looking for what would actually make the game more diverse and more well-balanced. Telling me the definition of what is already IN the game only proves how "inside the box" you are, and how stubbornly you refuse to even consider what others say.

[maddmatt70]

I'm very glad to hear real communication from Turbine on this. I appreciate it. But the 4 month timeframe is way too optimistic. Consider this:

U16 (October/November) is next, which means that it is currently in testing.
The developers are working on the next updates after U16, so 17 (December/Jan) and 18 (Feb/March), which means that any major system work they are doing is targeted for U18.
Since designs aren't yet final for the enhancement pass, that means that it's highly unlikely it would make it for the 17/18 updates, which means that the earliest we would see it is the U19 (April/May) and U20 (June/July) batch, which puts it into July of 2013.

And that assumes first that they are able to finalize designs soon, and second that each update takes no more than 2 months. I wouldn't expect the enhancement overhaul to be live any time before fall of 2013.

Yeah I should have said 6+ months instead of 4+ months. The + though means it could be anywhere from 6 to 18 months regardless it means it safe to tr without the character being altered to something I did not intend for at least the next 6 months...

[-Avalon-]

Yeah I should have said 6+ months instead of 4+ months. The + though means it could be anywhere from 6 to 18 months regardless it means it safe to tr without the character being altered to something I did not intend for at least the next 6 months...

Bah, just save up epic tokens, keep 20 in bank... or keep an eye out for hearts. That way, whenever they DO roll this out, even if it totally screws your character up, you can simply fix it... Problem solved.

although, depending on how major this change is going to be (which sounds like it may very well be HUGE), they should maybe think about giving out hearts to pre-existing characters based on level? (take into account previous lives, so a second life adds 20 min. to the level)

1-5 : No Heart (just reroll character)
5-10 : LR
11-15 : LR +1
16-19 : LR +3
20+ : LR +5

May even be an ok idea just to grant 20+ a free TR when it comes time, or a choice between LR+5 and TR?

Something like that, to help people out some on whatever changes... because those changes may utterly change the way the game works, and likely WILL.

[Schmoe]

Yeah I should have said 6+ months instead of 4+ months. The + though means it could be anywhere from 6 to 18 months regardless it means it safe to tr without the character being altered to something I did not intend for at least the next 6 months...

The news is disappointing, but I'm still hoping we get it sometime. I want my Deepwoods Sniper! :D

Definitely a fine time to TR...

[maddmatt70]

Bah, just save up epic tokens, keep 20 in bank... or keep an eye out for hearts. That way, whenever they DO roll this out, even if it totally screws your character up, you can simply fix it... Problem solved.

although, depending on how major this change is going to be (which sounds like it may very well be HUGE), they should maybe think about giving out hearts to pre-existing characters based on level? (take into account previous lives, so a second life adds 20 min. to the level)

1-5 : No Heart (just reroll character)
5-10 : LR
11-15 : LR +1
16-19 : LR +3
20+ : LR +5

May even be an ok idea just to grant 20+ a free TR when it comes time, or a choice between LR+5 and TR?

Something like that, to help people out some on whatever changes... because those changes may utterly change the way the game works, and likely WILL.

A big concern is with the races. The races I predict will change dramatically when the enhancement pass hits. Since we can not buy a racial change for our characters there will certainly be some trring that occurs when the pass hits live.

[HatsuharuZ]

A big concern is with the races. The races I predict will change dramatically when the enhancement pass hits. Since we can not buy a racial change for our characters there will certainly be some trring that occurs when the pass hits live.

In my opinion, the racial enhancements can only get better. Especially the Drow ones.

[kingfisher]

The news is disappointing, but I'm still hoping we get it sometime. I want my Deepwoods Sniper!

preferably without the Deepwoods sniper tree having ALL the Favored Enemy enhancements in it.

^
one of many many reasons that this delay is one of the best decisions turbine has ever made. kudo's to varg for the post and the devs for making the right call.

[-Avalon-]

In my opinion, the racial enhancements can only get better. Especially the Drow ones.

Yes... I really don't see the race enhancements lineup getting changed, per se... just amped. Dwarves will still have the armor abilities, the dwarven axe abilities, etc... Elves will still have AF, Scimitar/Falchion/Etc bonuses, resistance to enchantments, etc...

Things I expect to see... just like the ED tree setup, abilities are 1 or 2 points to buy, 1-3 ranks (for most part, there may be some exceptions)... So, things that used to cost 2/4/6/8 for the 4 ranks, will most likely cost 2/2/2/2 for same 4 ranks... I know they are trying to make Arcane Fluidity for elves/drow/HE's cost 1 per tier, don't know if they will end up giving all 4 ranks to each of them, keep it at 4 for elves and 3 for others, or make a 5 tier system or 3 tier system... but I know they want to make it 1 pt per tier, so that will be awesome.

I don't see them making things worse, only better with this. It will help give visual structure (and possibly make adding cooler enhancements possible) for a very sloppy system that was great back in 2006-2009, but needs updated badly.

[kingfisher]

I don't see them making things worse, only better with this. It will help give visual structure (and possibly make adding cooler enhancements possible) for a very sloppy system that was great back in 2006-2009, but needs updated badly.

pretty much the only thing that would make things worse is if they were to arbitrarily limit what enh a character could take over and above what they can take now. oh wait...........

[DrunkDwarves]

I wouldn't mind if this change were strictly visual, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The BEST thing about this game has to be the player's freedom to customize a character. You can pick up to three classes to level, choose your stats, acquire whatever feats you want, and setup your enhancements. This opens up a lot of possibility to customize a character for whatever play style you want.

Depending on how it's implemented, I see the new trees as being limiting.

Question: if I have to spend X number of points on my wizard to hit Pale Master III and Lich Form, what are the odds I have to pick up junk enhancements that don't really do anything productive just to make sure I'm auto granted the PRE once I meet the required points spent? If this turns out to be the case, can I still get the full dps lines for two elements in addition to the spell pen, PREs, and capstone I enjoy now?

Judging by the sheer volume of epic items most players consider trash, it's not a stretch to say that what we think is useful is not what the devs think is useful. I have no faith that this won't spill over into enhancements with the changes. It wouldn't surprise me if after this is implemented that I would have to waste points in upping concentration (Quicken anyone?) on the enhancement tree to reach the required points spent for Pale Master III. Should this be the case, enhancement setups are a 0 sum game and I'll be looking to see what useful enhancements I need to sacrifice in order to pick up enhancements that do nothing for me. Unless I'm mistaken, I think that's called a nerf, not augmentation.

With separate trees for each class, how are you going to implement requirements that do double duty? For instance, if you purchase enhancement upgrades for a skill (jump, tumble, whatever) they count for all PREs that require those skills which allows you to get PREs without having to buy two sets of said skill. If PREs become auto granted by pumping points into a tree, this benefit is lost. You now end up having to spend more enhancement points to acquire both PREs after this change goes live. Again, fewer enhancement points to spend is not augmentation.

What I would love to see is the finishing of all current PREs and the addition of new PRE lines for us to play with. Personally, I'm holding out for a cleric line that ups light damage (please please please please please please).

That aside, I hope the new enhancement system is a face lift and nothing more restricting. Character customization is what makes this game special (even if it does trip up some newer players) and should not be watered down with more restrictive paths for us to follow. Just about every other MMO out there lays out trees for players to crawl their way through. Please don't lower DDO to that level of customization.

If you really want to see trees, I think having one combined tree would straighten out the look of things. Have one section with all the racial enhancements, one section for the skills available to your current class(s), one for boosts/spell damage lines and class specific enhancements, and one for PREs. That's just as many visual segments as your preview mockup and still lets us spend points on whatever we want to meet the required points spent to go "up the tree."

Except that I heard Turbine ignored most of the player feedback for Caught in the Web, which is regarded as the worst raid design in the game by many players. I know I'm posting way down the line for this particular thread and I'm sure this post just echos what other players have already typed out in earlier posts. I just hope they listen to players this time around.

[-Avalon-]

From what I have seen (which I think is what most have seen) of the proposed new enhancement UI, is that there will be 4 areas, one for Racial Prestige+Base Race abilities, and 3 for Class tailoring. If you are playing a 12 Pal/6 Ftr/2 Mnk, then you would have 3 areas to use for those classes. There is a drop down menu at the bottom of each allowing you to select PrE's from the classes. So, you could have DoS on first one, KotC on second, and Kensei on third one...

I am not sure how they are handling the base class enhancements though... like Paladin Toughness or Fighter Armor Agility or whatever... those are not part of any PrE's, so if you fill up your areas with PrE's, can you still pick basic stuff??

This is where some info from dev's so we can give feedback, would be great! I know they want to keep it a big hush hush secret, but surprise gifts can sometimes be exactly what is NOT wanted by the recipient, and could be avoided if the giver had at least hinted around and gotten a few clues...

[legendlore]

A big concern is with the races. The races I predict will change dramatically when the enhancement pass hits. Since we can not buy a racial change for our characters there will certainly be some trring that occurs when the pass hits live.
I'm mostly concerned about that it currently seems like Warforged are getting the Stalwart defender prestige. Don't really think it's wise to give one of the most survivable (and often best dps) builds (Warforged casters, be it Fs, Wiz or Sorc) out there access to more hp and defenses.


I am not sure how they are handling the base class enhancements though... like Paladin Toughness or Fighter Armor Agility or whatever... those are not part of any PrE's, so if you fill up your areas with PrE's, can you still pick basic stuff??
Going of now old info there will be no general enhancements. They will all be put into one tree or another, severely limiting the choices of multi classing. The given developer example was that bards to-hit/damage song enhancements would be put into Warchanter, which in reality will force every bard to put at least some ranks into Warchanter unless they radically change the buffs other bard prestige's can provide.

[dlsidhe]

I am not sure how they are handling the base class enhancements though... like Paladin Toughness or Fighter Armor Agility or whatever... those are not part of any PrE's, so if you fill up your areas with PrE's, can you still pick basic stuff??

Y'know...this just occurred to me, but if ED's give us clues, couldn't some of the enhancements everyone takes in a class be worked into the PrE autogrants? Like, say, getting +10hp per level of *insert fighter PrE here* rather than having separate toughness enhancements. Then having separate, selectable enhancements in the trees?

Example, just off the top of my head: All the fighter PrE's grant +10hp per level (or +8, which on a five-level PrE would equal out to +40, like taking four toughness enhancements). Then a SD could have additional optional enhancements to further boost either permanent HP or granting situational temp HP. Or, for the rangers, all ranger PrE's grant Favored enemy bonuses (say, +1 to hit, attack, etc. every odd PrE level, for +3 total on a five-level PrE), but then the DS gets additional optional bonuses. Arcane casters could get bonus SP per PrE level, divines get SP+HP (though less on each than a melee or an arcane), rogues get sneak attack bonuses (but only Assassins have additional enhancements to further boost SA dice, Acrobats have staff/dex specific bonuses, etc).

But, again, without knowing how this would work, any praise or DOOOOM is purely conjecture.

[Ebondevil]

I'm mostly concerned about that it currently seems like Warforged are getting the Stalwart defender prestige.
I'm mostly concerned that Races are getting class based PrE's instead of Raced based ones.

Regarding Warforged, I'd much rather see Warforged Juggernaut than Stalwart Defender.

Though for any Dragonmarked race have two racial PrE's would make sense the Dragonmarked Heir and a Racial one.

[Failedlegend]

I am not sure how they are handling the base class enhancements though... like Paladin Toughness or Fighter Armor Agility or whatever... those are not part of any PrE's, so if you fill up your areas with PrE's, can you still pick basic stuff??


Going by what we've been told (some like 6 month old info) the regular class enhancements will be shoehorned into the 3 class PrEs which for multiclasses is crippling since they only get 3/6 or 3/9. My favorite solution to this is just adding a general tab with its own points it makes it less crippling to multiclasses and it will make the PrE classes feel alot more unique since they will now be filled with enhancements specific to that PrE...Artos Fabril made some great examples for rogues here's his Acrobat.


Acrobat
Enhancement Name Cost Progression Class Level Requirement Benefit
Acrobatics 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 +1 to Balance, Jump, Tumble
->Showtime 1/1/1/1/1/1/1 1/3/5/7/9/11/13 1 use per tier of "Showtime" (as current Showtime, no boost use)
->->Prime Time 1/1/1 9/11/13 Showtime adds 3/6/10% doublestrike
->->->Grand Finale 3 15 Consume a use of your "Showtime" ability to gain 15% doublestrike and 50% fortification bypass for 8 seconds
->->->->Encore! 1 18 Striking the killing blow on a red- or purple-named monster returns a use of your "Showtime" ability
Tactical Staff 1/1/1/1/1/1 2/6/10/14/18 +1 bonus per tier to all tactics feats with quarterstaff equipped
Staff Training 1/1/1/1/1 2/5/8/11/14 Increase the Enhancement Bonus of your Quarterstaff by +1 per tier
->Staff Fencing 1/1/1/1/1/1 6/8/10/12/14/16 Gain 2% fortification bypass and +1 deflection bonus to AC per tier while using a quarterstaff
->->Defense Staff 1/1/1 9/12/15 5% competence bonus to damage reduction per tier with staff equipped
->Staff Specialization 1/1/1 6/9/12 +2 damage per tier with equipped staff
->->Staff Expertise 1/1/1/1/1 9/11/13/15/17 +2% per tier to glancing blow damage or off-hand proc rate with staves
->->->->Staff Mastery 2/2 15/18 +1 to Staff Critical Threat per tier
->->->->->Staff Impact 2 18 +1 to Staff Critical Multiplier
->Staff Blitz 2 3 Treat Staves as double-weapons
Uncanny Relfexes 1/1/1/1 4/6/8/10 Uncanny Dodge grants additional +1 AC and +1 reflex per tier
->Uncanny Dodger 1/1/1 6/9/12 Uncanny Dodge lasts 10 seconds longer per tier
->->Uncanny Mind 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny Dodge also grants +2 per tier to will saves
->->Uncanny Body 1/1/1 9/11/13 Uncanny dodge also grants +2 per tier to fortitude saves
->->->Uncanny Evasion 3 18 Uncanny Evasion gives the rogue a second chance on a failed reflex save
Nimble Strike 1/1/1/1 3/6/9/12 Add 2 points of your dexterity bonus to sneak attack damage per tier
Slow Fall 3 4 Gain Slow Fall as a monk of equal level
Aerobatics 2 15 +20% movement speed while falling


Granted Benefits:
Tier .5 +10% movement speed
Tier 1 +5% attack speed with Staves +2 uses of uncanny dodge
Tier 1.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 2 Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces
Tier 2.5 +1 use of uncanny dodge
Tier 3 Full ability bonus to damage with staff as double-weapon, or +15% glancing blow damage and 5% effect proc rate as two-handed
Capstone +2 to dexterity and gain incorporeal miss chance equal to your reflex save

[maddmatt70]

Yes... I really don't see the race enhancements lineup getting changed, per se... just amped. Dwarves will still have the armor abilities, the dwarven axe abilities, etc... Elves will still have AF, Scimitar/Falchion/Etc bonuses, resistance to enchantments, etc...

Things I expect to see... just like the ED tree setup, abilities are 1 or 2 points to buy, 1-3 ranks (for most part, there may be some exceptions)... So, things that used to cost 2/4/6/8 for the 4 ranks, will most likely cost 2/2/2/2 for same 4 ranks... I know they are trying to make Arcane Fluidity for elves/drow/HE's cost 1 per tier, don't know if they will end up giving all 4 ranks to each of them, keep it at 4 for elves and 3 for others, or make a 5 tier system or 3 tier system... but I know they want to make it 1 pt per tier, so that will be awesome.

I don't see them making things worse, only better with this. It will help give visual structure (and possibly make adding cooler enhancements possible) for a very sloppy system that was great back in 2006-2009, but needs updated badly.

It is not a question of anything getting worse its a question of some races getting big bumps and being better for a specific build. Drow is a good example I might want to make one of my characters who was a half-elf or half-orc into a drow after the enhancement pass 'amps' the drow up.

[Chai]

It is not a question of anything getting worse its a question of some races getting big bumps and being better for a specific build. Drow is a good example I might want to make one of my characters who was a half-elf or half-orc into a drow after the enhancement pass 'amps' the drow up.

The LR/TR system actually needs to work as well. Nowdays if I want to LR I have to do it on an even numbered Tuesday in the second week of an odd numbered month for it to work, otherwise favor and epic XP gets erased.

A high level of hilarity will ensue when the enhancement revamp is released, and the LR system is either still broke or the bug is necroed back into the system.

[Chai]

pretty much the only thing that would make things worse is if they were to arbitrarily limit what enh a character could take over and above what they can take now. oh wait...........

With the 4th tree access purchasable in the DDO store. Wait for it...

It certainly fits the description. Arbitrary but unnecessary limitation worked into an already limited system.

[kingfisher]

I wouldn't mind if this change were strictly visual, but that doesn't seem to be the case. The BEST thing about this game has to be the player's freedom to customize a character. You can pick up to three classes to level, choose your stats, acquire whatever feats you want, and setup your enhancements. This opens up a lot of possibility to customize a character for whatever play style you want.

Depending on how it's implemented, I see the new trees as being limiting.

definitely limiting if a multi class build only gets to pick 3, unless ofc all core class enh are in every pre tree that is.
on the other hand this would be a HUGE boost for pures, giving them access to all of their classes core enh PLUS being able to access 3 PRE's instead of just one. This is the main problem. Multi's would be nerfed to the stone age.


I'm mostly concerned that Races are getting class based PrE's instead of Raced based ones.

This is main problem #2, giving a class pre as a racial pre would completely eliminate some classes or races from play. why would you roll a melee ranger when you could roll a barb and take tempest as a racial? why would your wiz being anything other than a wf or dwarf if you get get PM/AM and SD? why would any fighter not be a half orc if you could get ravager for free as well as kensai/sd?

using class pre's as racial pres is a easy lazy cheap route for turbine and it would absolutely hurt the diversity in this game. without question.


The LR/TR system actually needs to work as well. Nowdays if I want to LR I have to do it on an even numbered Tuesday in the second week of an odd numbered month for it to work, otherwise favor and epic XP gets erased.

A high level of hilarity will ensue when the enhancement revamp is released, and the LR system is either still broke or the bug is necroed back into the system.

lol +1 very good chai. then they let it slip that everything works fine if you just PURCHASE an LR from the store instead of using the 'free' one. #jackpot!


With the 4th tree access purchasable in the DDO store. Wait for it...

It certainly fits the description. Arbitrary but unnecessary limitation worked into an already limited system.

i think at this point NO ONE would be surprised by this. sometimes i wonder if the only reason that turbine asks players for feedback or what they want is to decide what they can profit the most from in the company sto. cue the merle travis theme song now.

[-Avalon-]

definitely limiting if a multi class build only gets to pick 3, unless ofc all core class enh are in every pre tree that is.
on the other hand this would be a HUGE boost for pures, giving them access to all of their classes core enh PLUS being able to access 3 PRE's instead of just one. This is the main problem. Multi's would be nerfed to the stone age.

I agree... they need to add 1 tab for the 4 'areas', 1 tab for class trees, and 1 for Epic Destinies(map/tree)... Use this as a perfect time to combine all of it together and allow players the PrE's tab, Class' Tab, ED Tab...


This is main problem #2, giving a class pre as a racial pre would completely eliminate some classes or races from play. why would you roll a melee ranger when you could roll a barb and take tempest as a racial? why would your wiz being anything other than a wf or dwarf if you get get PM/AM and SD? why would any fighter not be a half orc if you could get ravager for free as well as kensai/sd?

using class pre's as racial pres is a easy lazy cheap route for turbine and it would absolutely hurt the diversity in this game. without question.

Yes, indeed... Instead, they should be working on PrE's for races like "Dwarven Defender", "Drow Weapons Master", "Warforged Juggernaut", "Halfling Throwing Master", "Elven Champion", etc etc... The key is: they all have a racial requirement! There are no "Elven Juggernauts" (waits for bad sarcastic jokes...)


lol +1 very good chai. then they let it slip that everything works fine if you just PURCHASE an LR from the store instead of using the 'free' one. #jackpot!

Really? He doesn't have to wait for Pluto, Saturn, Jupiter, and our moon to align with the galactic core as well? :D

Sorry, Kind of been finding out about these timing problems as I continue hunting for my TR... which can be a fun timing problem all its own... (since there are ~2.5/3 days between raids) 18 Shroud runs, so need to wait 6 days and get 20th completion, but then during that time may as well do ADQ/DQ but then that makes me 17 completions, so may as well wait 9 more days for that... but that makes me have 19 on ToD, 3 more days... before you know it 2 months have past, and back to 19 completions on shroud... grrr...

At some point, gotta just say screw it and scrap the completions and just TR :o

[Ebondevil]

Yes, indeed... Instead, they should be working on PrE's for races like "Dwarven Defender", "Drow Weapons Master", "Warforged Juggernaut", "Halfling Throwing Master", "Elven Champion"

I'd say Elven Bladesinger (Complete Warrior), it's practically an Iconic PrC for the race, also fits well with the Elven Arcane Fluidity.

Also I'd say Halfling Outrider (Complete Warrior), so much more fitting in Eberron, especially with a Dinosaur mount.

[-Avalon-]

I'd say Elven Bladesinger (Complete Warrior), it's practically an Iconic PrC for the race, also fits well with the Elven Arcane Fluidity.

Also I'd say Halfling Outrider (Complete Warrior), so much more fitting in Eberron, especially with a Dinosaur mount.

Yeah, but my asking for changing "+1 Caster Level" to more appropriate "+1 Spell Casting Level" is considered very difficult for the game... imagine what the likelihood of adding mounts to the game is...lol

I went with the throwing master, because the game has thrown weapon bonuses, and pretty good thrown weapons, it is just too slow and has no "manyshot" type abilities to really make it work. If they added in a throwing master halfling PrE, then we may find people actually using thrown weapon builds. More diversity is always good, especially if all that would be required is creatively using what is already present within the game code.

[Scraap]

Yeah, but my asking for changing "+1 Caster Level" to more appropriate "+1 Spell Casting Level" is considered very difficult for the game... imagine what the likelihood of adding mounts to the game is...lol

I went with the throwing master, because the game has thrown weapon bonuses, and pretty good thrown weapons, it is just too slow and has no "manyshot" type abilities to really make it work. If they added in a throwing master halfling PrE, then we may find people actually using thrown weapon builds. More diversity is always good, especially if all that would be required is creatively using what is already present within the game code.

Speaking of using existing the existing code-base, and caster multi-classing:

1/2 Character-level SLAs. Particularly if they're still thinking of allowing that type of thing for racials.

[Failedlegend]

From what I have seen (which I think is what most have seen) of the proposed new enhancement UI, is that there will be 4 areas, one for Racial Prestige+Base Race abilities, and 3 for Class tailoring.

Slight correction, if you want your racial PrE you have to sacrifice one of your class PrEs

[-Avalon-]

Thanks for correction... just makes me want the multiple tabs thing even more...

Tab 1:
4 Areas - 1 for Race, 3 for Classes (some may be blank depending on how many classes you pick);

Tab 2:
4 Areas - 1 for Racial PrE, 3 for Class PrE's (some may be blank yet again)

Tab 3:
2 Sub-Tabs - Map View/Tree View - For ED's

Having it like this would not be overpowering in any way, since characters still have that same maximum AP limit (theoretically, they are sticking with 80 still?) So, even if you have all of those options, you would still only be able to invest in a fraction of them, while also giving players the exact same amount of freedom they have currently, possibly more.

[Failedlegend]

Thanks for correction... just makes me want the multiple tabs thing even more...

Tab 1:
4 Areas - 1 for Race, 3 for Classes (some may be blank depending on how many classes you pick);

Tab 2:
4 Areas - 1 for Racial PrE, 3 for Class PrE's (some may be blank yet again)

Tab 3:
2 Sub-Tabs - Map View/Tree View - For ED's

Having it like this would not be overpowering in any way, since characters still have that same maximum AP limit (theoretically, they are sticking with 80 still?) So, even if you have all of those options, you would still only be able to invest in a fraction of them, while also giving players the exact same amount of freedom they have currently, possibly more.

Something like this? (with EDs added and a tab for companions if applicable ie. Arty or Druid)


http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg

Racial & Prestiges will use Augmentation Points (action points is a stupid name)

General (or Class) will use General Points (probably gained at the same rate as AP, possibly based opn class if the amount of availible general enhancements varies greatly between classes)

Companions will use Companion points

[emptysands]

Something like this? (with EDs added and a tab for companions if applicable ie. Arty or Druid)


http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg

Racial & Prestiges will use Augmentation Points (action points is a stupid name)

General (or Class) will use General Points (probably gained at the same rate as AP, possibly based opn class if the amount of availible general enhancements varies greatly between classes)

Companions will use Companion points

Nice work.

Not sure I'm convinced by separate APs for Racial, General, Class and PrEs.

I do like the idea of "passive" abilities dependant on level - similar to EDs.

[Failedlegend]

Nice work.

Not sure I'm convinced by separate APs for Racial, General, Class and PrEs.

I do like the idea of "passive" abilities dependant on level - similar to EDs.

Slight correction Prestige & Racial use the same points only General (which could be called "Class") has different points as well as companions since they already have separate points. Only reason to seperate is because the biggest complaint about general tab was finding a way to siphon those points into the pres

As for the passive abilities I'm assuming your referring to the 5 10 15 20 25 30 41...those are the devs idea...thats your pre abilities you get them automatically by spending that amount AP in that tab you gain that ability.

[-Avalon-]

Something like this? (with EDs added and a tab for companions if applicable ie. Arty or Druid)


http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg

Racial & Prestiges will use Augmentation Points (action points is a stupid name)

General (or Class) will use General Points (probably gained at the same rate as AP, possibly based opn class if the amount of availible general enhancements varies greatly between classes)

Companions will use Companion points

Really nice work, very close to what I am saying actually... Yes, have tabs like that for prestige (including race and class, 4 areas like they have now), general (4 areas for race and classes, just like first tab but only contains general enhancements like Fighter's Toughness or Wizard Cold Spell Enhancements), third tab for ED stuffs, possibly 4th tab for companions.

Adding the 4th tab would be great, because there are a lot of 'pet' classes/PRC's in D&D that could make a jump to DDO.

But, players would get either generic AP like they get now to boost any AP enhancements... or could give different pts for each tab (like you said)... I would stick to AP for general tab, PrP for Prestige tab, EDP for ED tab, and CP (I guess, but really trying to avoid using the monetary abbreviations, but at least CP is used so little as to be able to used, not like GP or PP) for companion tab...

They could do that, or just give us the same 80 AP from 1-20, and how we choose to spend them is how we choose to spend them lol... Which due to the fact that now we will have entire trees given to prestiges that before were only a couple of enhancements... and with the theory they are going with 1 and 2 pt enhancement costs (like ED's have)... means that we will see a ton more enhancements, and still only get a fraction of them...

If they went with having different pts like you suggested, either we would have to get fewer pts, or they would have to increase the costs of the enhancements somehow... Otherwise, we would have most of the tree bought on each tree =(

Either way, I do hope they are looking at this discussion, because it could make the new UI very clean and still allow players a TON of customization.

[Jay203]

sooooo, can we get an update to the progress of the enhancement pass?
devs? please??? D:

[goodoldxelos]

Really nice work, very close to what I am saying actually... Yes, have tabs like that for prestige (including race and class, 4 areas like they have now), general (4 areas for race and classes, just like first tab but only contains general enhancements like Fighter's Toughness or Wizard Cold Spell Enhancements), third tab for ED stuffs, possibly 4th tab for companions.

Adding the 4th tab would be great, because there are a lot of 'pet' classes/PRC's in D&D that could make a jump to DDO.

But, players would get either generic AP like they get now to boost any AP enhancements... or could give different pts for each tab (like you said)... I would stick to AP for general tab, PrP for Prestige tab, EDP for ED tab, and CP (I guess, but really trying to avoid using the monetary abbreviations, but at least CP is used so little as to be able to used, not like GP or PP) for companion tab...

They could do that, or just give us the same 80 AP from 1-20, and how we choose to spend them is how we choose to spend them lol... Which due to the fact that now we will have entire trees given to prestiges that before were only a couple of enhancements... and with the theory they are going with 1 and 2 pt enhancement costs (like ED's have)... means that we will see a ton more enhancements, and still only get a fraction of them...

If they went with having different pts like you suggested, either we would have to get fewer pts, or they would have to increase the costs of the enhancements somehow... Otherwise, we would have most of the tree bought on each tree =(

Either way, I do hope they are looking at this discussion, because it could make the new UI very clean and still allow players a TON of customization.

I would just ask that they break the enhancements up into parts where possible to increase customization.