Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Red_Knight]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

Still reading through the thread (actually skimming and reading dev replies). But so far I'm liking what I'm hearing.

Does this mean you intend to eventually offer Dragon Disciple as a PrE for bards and sorcerers? I hope so, I was highly disappointed when it wasn't included in any Prestige pass.

[Failedlegend]

Still reading through the thread (actually skimming and reading dev replies). But so far I'm liking what I'm hearing.

Does this mean you intend to eventually offer Dragon Disciple as a PrE for bards and sorcerers? I hope so, I was highly disappointed when it wasn't included in any Prestige pass.

Well it's quite possible that Sorc will at least get a new PrE because they only have Savant & Acolyte of the Skin so they might get a 3rd one...but that just pure speculation

[Aesop]

Still reading through the thread (actually skimming and reading dev replies). But so far I'm liking what I'm hearing.

Does this mean you intend to eventually offer Dragon Disciple as a PrE for bards and sorcerers? I hope so, I was highly disappointed when it wasn't included in any Prestige pass.

I would totally love to see Dragon Disciple for Sorcerer.
Aesop

[Mad_ScientistsNH]

I'm a person who has "the patience of a saint" and is generally wary of changing game mechanics that impact established characters. However, I really like what I'm reading in this thread, and provided that the developers are careful to not wall off options to characters this should be a great improvement for the game.

[Aashrym]

I would totally love to see Dragon Disciple for Sorcerer.
Aesop

/signed

I would agree dragon disciple would make a nice 3rd PrE counting savant as 1 PrE.

I would also rather see eldritch knight over wild mage for wizards and arcane archer replaced with beast master for rangers leaving arcane archer a race only PrE.

[Red_Knight]

One way I could see handling dragon disciple's class abilities would be to have active use abilities granted. The breath weapon could easily be done as different elemental attacks in the style of Scorch. The winged flight dragon disciples eventually get could be an active skill that grants flight for X seconds/minutes. Biggest hurdle I can see is the fact they eventually get draconic wings.

Other then that, the class's bonuses to AC and attributes are easy to do. Although it would be cool to have dragon disciple as an actual prestige class you have to level in, with prereqs to be able to take it of course.

[HatsuharuZ]

One way I could see handling dragon disciple's class abilities would be to have active use abilities granted. The breath weapon could easily be done as different elemental attacks in the style of Scorch. The winged flight dragon disciples eventually get could be an active skill that grants flight for X seconds/minutes. Biggest hurdle I can see is the fact they eventually get draconic wings.

Other then that, the class's bonuses to AC and attributes are easy to do. Although it would be cool to have dragon disciple as an actual prestige class you have to level in, with prereqs to be able to take it of course.

I can see Dragon Disciple as a melee option, and possibly have some synergy with melee classes, monk especially, if DD gets extra damage to unarmed attacks due to their claws. (What percentage of sorcerers actually make use of their weapon proficiencies on a regular basis?) I remember when Red Dragon Disciple was a prestige class in a Neverwinter Nights expansion... it was quite fun, but also a bit OP since it increased your charisma, intelligence and strength, along with the other benefits. I don't think all of that will make it into DDO, even if they do have a Dragon Disciple PrE.

[Red_Knight]

Dragon disciple's limiting factor in PnP is the fact it halves your casting ability. That, and as a PrE you'd still be limited by the hit die of the arcane class. Which means a D4 or D6 hit die.

But yeah, in NWN the reason red dragon disciple is so freaking nasty is the underdark expansion. The final boss battle in that expansion is exclusively fire damage. Which red dragon disciple is immune to at level 10.

That's one reason I think it'd be better implemented as a true prestige class instead of a prestige enhancement line. The class trades casting ability for a stronger melee presence and useful abilities like a once a day breath weapon. Just imagine a sorc who rolled 18 strength then went into dragon disciple. Or worse yet, took the half dragon racial template. Scary. That char had strength equal to a young red dragon, or a hill giant. At level one to boot. I had a better chance to hit then the melee guys.

And in PnP a monk with levels of dragon disciple didn't get to use the claws and unarmed damage. The claws are counted as a weapon. But I have an old sorc/dragon disciple character I played who learned first hand just how bad troll tastes. Dang berserk temper without the benefits of barbarian rage.

[Failedlegend]

I would also rather see eldritch knight over wild mage for wizards


but...but....I want to accidentally turn my self into a barrel.

I'd rather see Eldritch Knight show up as a Hybrid PrE requiring both Martial and Arcane Levels to obtain...also give Elves Bladesinger.



arcane archer replaced with beast master for rangers leaving arcane archer a race only PrE.

Agreed...although it would be nice if Elf and H-Elf had different ranged PrEs but thats minor



Although it would be cool to have dragon disciple as an actual prestige class you have to level in, with prereqs to be able to take it of course.

I actually LOVE the way Turbine translated Prestiges in DDO since I loathed the way it was done in 3/3.5...a long time ago I was trying to create a system similar to how DDO handles prestige classes which I called the "Guild System" so instead of taking a level in it you needed to do certain requirements to "Join the Guild" (ie. a Black Flame Zealot would have to join "The Order of the Black Flame") and normally I'd limit them to one but I would allow two or three depending on the situation.

Basically a player would build a character with 1-4ish "Base" classes than choose a "Guild" to join (we would dedicate a session to making our characters and figuring out our basic back stories) and the next session would basically be the players trying to accomplish the "Initiation Tasks" that I made up since the last session. I never fully completed it as I moved on to 4e but what I had done seemed to be well received by my players and when I finished it we were likely going to make it an official house rule.

[Red_Knight]

Yeah, it's just that not all prestige classes in PnP translate well as PrE lines. Dragon Disciple might be one of those due to the physical changes one goes through such as wings. Doable, but trickier. It would also help avoid some of the power creep. Can you imagine a monk with some sorcerer splash getting a PrE which gave +8 strength along with everything else?

Although as a PrE line with the new upcoming system the stat bonuses could be done via a set of enhancements, each costing 1 point. So to get the full stat bonuses one would have to spend 10+ AP. Naturally stagger when the tiers of strength are available. Perhaps then have a set of exclusive enhancements to denote what type of dragon disciple you are. With the exclusive enhancement determining your elemental immunity (Resistance instead?) and breath weapon type. The claws could be done as an unarmed damage die increase for non-monks, and adding slashing to unarmed damage type.

This would make it so non-monks deal 1d4 blunt/slash unarmed while monks would do their normal damage but add slashing to damage types.

[Failedlegend]

Yeah, it's just that not all prestige classes in PnP translate well as PrE lines. Dragon Disciple might be one of those due to the physical changes one goes through such as wings. Doable, but trickier. It would also help avoid some of the power creep. Can you imagine a monk with some sorcerer splash getting a PrE which gave +8 strength along with everything else?

Although as a PrE line with the new upcoming system the stat bonuses could be done via a set of enhancements, each costing 1 point. So to get the full stat bonuses one would have to spend 10+ AP. Naturally stagger when the tiers of strength are available. Perhaps then have a set of exclusive enhancements to denote what type of dragon disciple you are. With the exclusive enhancement determining your elemental immunity (Resistance instead?) and breath weapon type. The claws could be done as an unarmed damage die increase for non-monks, and adding slashing to unarmed damage type.

This would make it so non-monks deal 1d4 blunt/slash unarmed while monks would do their normal damage but add slashing to damage types.

Thats why I think they should add in "Hybrid" PrEs to give a place to PrEs that don't fit with just one class..Eldritch Knight require levels in both an arcane and martial class...Sacred Fist requires Monk + Cleric...Arcane Trickster requires Wizard + Rogue Mech...????? requires Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker (this just needs to be done)....Corrupt Avenger requires Palemaster+Divine Avenger....etc. It would add something unique to deep splashes which at this point is needed since the new system from what we know will heavily favor Single Class/Light Splash builds.

Here's a quick example using Swiftbalde (and using the Tempest Template)

The Requirements:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble,etc.

[Red_Knight]

Good point. That's one thing this new UI might help with. The current system can't handle prestige that require multiple classes. Arcane Archer is suppose to require arcane casting ability as well as BAB and many feats that only fighters and rangers are likely to pick up.

[Failedlegend]

Good point. That's one thing this new UI might help with. The current system can't handle prestige that require multiple classes. Arcane Archer is suppose to require arcane casting ability as well as BAB and many feats that only fighters and rangers are likely to pick up.

Yeah the idea is definitely reliant on the new system whether they stick with the 3 Tree limit or go with the suggested "Access to all PrE Trees but can only choose 3 PrEs to get the free bonuses from" idea you would need 1 PrE from each class than the multiclass PrE so It would have its limitations (as well as the need to have a decent investment into both classes) but not so restricted that it loses it's multiclass nature (ie. you don't need 10 levels in each class)

[Aesop]

/signed

I would agree dragon disciple would make a nice 3rd PrE counting savant as 1 PrE.

I would also rather see eldritch knight over wild mage for wizards and arcane archer replaced with beast master for rangers leaving arcane archer a race only PrE.

Yeah I'm good with that too... particularly the bit about AA

Aesop

[Aesop]

One way I could see handling dragon disciple's class abilities would be to have active use abilities granted. The breath weapon could easily be done as different elemental attacks in the style of Scorch. The winged flight dragon disciples eventually get could be an active skill that grants flight for X seconds/minutes. Biggest hurdle I can see is the fact they eventually get draconic wings.

Other then that, the class's bonuses to AC and attributes are easy to do. Although it would be cool to have dragon disciple as an actual prestige class you have to level in, with prereqs to be able to take it of course.


Well remember that nothing has to be a perfect match.

The Breath Weapon could easily be a SLA.

Favored Souls are supposed to have wings as well and that got translated to a super jump really so that's no problem.

The natural weapons can be added in as improved unarmed strikes perhaps increasing the Damage Die by 1 step and maybe adding Slashing to the Damage Type... It would also be nice if Turbine would add the Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike Feats so that Monks aren't the only unarmed fighters.

The extra HP can be added in a similar way perhaps as you progress up the free Enhancements could include HP bumps.

The Dragon Apotheosis could be like the PM forms and have a visual effect but not be a permanent change. The Form could include most of the benefits that Dragon Apotheosis lists.

Additionally the dragon type chosen could give additional benefits to its corresponding element though likely not to the same degree as Elemental Savant. Perhaps even an aura effect that could be boosted up within the PrE line that could have Fear or Elemental Damage Ward.

Perhaps as the sorcerers are Dragon Blooded this could be a greater expression of that and grant more Spell Penetration and SP. There are lots of ways to go here.

They wouldn't be as pure damage as a Savant but they would have certain other bonuses that would compensate them in other areas. Bit more survivability, better DCs better spell pen and SP. Maybe even Elemental Absorption in Apotheosis form that heals when hit by the element.

Aesop

[DDOisFree]

I know that this thread is mainly about the UI, but one major problem I've always noticed with caster enhancements is how ridiculously expensive spell penetration and metamagic enhancements are for how little they do.

The spell penetration line in particular is too expensive for how little it does, +3 spell pen for 12 APs has never been worth it, and its never even enough for the only thing you need it against which is Drow.

Spell penetration enhancements should be changed to 4 tiers at the same cost as most other things - 1, 2, 3, and 4 AP per enhancement.

Focusing on metamagic enhancements does very little as well for the SP cost. However I don't think that these need to be any cheaper, just more worthwhile to take by maybe adding an extra perk for the most expensive 6 AP enhancement at the end of each one, e.g.

Empower III - Damage bonus from using empower spell is raised to 60%
Maximize III - Damage bonus from using maximize spell is raised to 120%
Heighten II - Raises your caster level by 1 while heighten spell is active.

Anyone spending 10-12 APs in these lines would then see something a little more worthwhile for how expensive they are.

[Monkey-Boy]

This all looks wonderful, any news as to when we'll see this on Lamania?

[Failedlegend]

This all looks wonderful, any news as to when we'll see this on Lamania?

I'm hoping soon so if they need to make any major changes based on feedback they have time to

[bigolbear]

just poping back to see whats been said

*nods in general aproval.


If we do go with multiclass prestiges - ie prestiges that require X lvls of class 1 and Y lvls of class 2 then perhaps warpreist and warchanter should be reclasified as that, or just offer further bonuses if you do multi. same goes for arcane archer, if you actualy do have arcane casting ability then it should be better than it is - whereas at the moment it is actualy worse which is bizare (cos the imbues cause lengthly cool downs)

The 'floating tree' multiclass prestiges id like to see are:

arcane archer (elf or helf or ranger or any full bab class + any casting class)
warpreist (any full bab class + cleric or druid or FVS)
warchanter (any full bab class + bard)
eldrich knight (any full bab class + wizard or sorc)
bladesinger (any full bab class + bard + elf)
runesmith (dwarf + any arcane)
dragon mark heir (any dragon mark, posibly one tree for each)
Juggernought (WF + any full bab class)

[Failedlegend]

just poping back to see whats been said

*nods in general aproval.


If we do go with multiclass prestiges - ie prestiges that require X lvls of class 1 and Y lvls of class 2 then perhaps warpreist and warchanter should be reclasified as that, or just offer further bonuses if you do multi. same goes for arcane archer, if you actualy do have arcane casting ability then it should be better than it is - whereas at the moment it is actualy worse which is bizare (cos the imbues cause lengthly cool downs)

The 'floating tree' multiclass prestiges id like to see are:

arcane archer (elf or helf or ranger or any full bab class + any casting class)
bladesinger (any full bab class + bard + elf)

These should be Elf Racial PrEs...also Bladesinger doesn't have anything to do with a Bard

warpreist (any full bab class + cleric or druid or FVS)
warchanter (any full bab class + bard)

These should remian class PrEs simply because it would destroy the majority of current Bard builds...also Multiclass PrEs should be used for PrEs that CAN'T fit into a single class warpriest/chanter fit just fine

eldrich knight (any full bab class + wizard or sorc)

No Argument here

runesmith (dwarf + any arcane)

Should be a Dwarven Racial PrE

dragon mark heir (any dragon mark, posibly one tree for each)

These are being worked into the Racial Trees...possibly with the DM lines being reduced to 1 Feat instead of 3

Juggernought (WF + any full bab class)
Should be a WF Racial PrE along with Reforged


Couple notes in orange (did some reordering)

[kingfisher]

the 3 tree limit is still a bad idea. just sayin.

[Chai]

just poping back to see whats been said

*nods in general aproval.


If we do go with multiclass prestiges - ie prestiges that require X lvls of class 1 and Y lvls of class 2 then perhaps warpreist and warchanter should be reclasified as that, or just offer further bonuses if you do multi. same goes for arcane archer, if you actualy do have arcane casting ability then it should be better than it is - whereas at the moment it is actualy worse which is bizare (cos the imbues cause lengthly cool downs)

The 'floating tree' multiclass prestiges id like to see are:

arcane archer (elf or helf or ranger or any full bab class + any casting class)
warpreist (any full bab class + cleric or druid or FVS)
warchanter (any full bab class + bard)
eldrich knight (any full bab class + wizard or sorc)
bladesinger (any full bab class + bard + elf)
runesmith (dwarf + any arcane)
dragon mark heir (any dragon mark, posibly one tree for each)
Juggernought (WF + any full bab class)

Why not just have feat and enhancement qualifications without telling people what classes they have to play?

Bladesinger should be something like BAB 6+ and ability to use level 1 arcane spells.
A level 9 rogue 1 wiz should be able to take that just like a level 6 fighter 1 sorc could.
A level 12 wizard could take their 13th level as bladesinger too.

This would not only be more akin to how D&D actually works, but would open the door to a plethora of building options that do not currently exist.

[Silverleafeon]

I noticed in a Dev post of the new content that Epic Destinies would be used:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=363362

Epic Destinies (account wide unlock) – 995 Turbine Points

For those familiar with 4th edition, this tells us a lot.

There will be a definate separation between heroic levels (including enhancement packages) and epic levels.

There will be much more mixing and matching going on for epic levels.
For example, there may be an Epic Destiny that amplifies arcane spells which any character that can cast arcane spells might be interested in.
For example, there may be an(or more) Epic Destiny(s) that increase(s) defensive melee abilities which any character that wants such could take, along with several that increase offensive melee abilities in various fashions
For example, there may be an Epic Destiny that increases necroitc spell casting, along with another that functions on elemental spell casting.
There will be quite a few of these in due time, and many of them have some very cool feature to them.
The class restrictions to enter should be liberal.
Kinda big cool extras, but you have to choose which one you want.

This also means that the 3rd edition rules of needing to have a pure class with 20 levels in it before applying epic class levels will not be used.
No heroic monk 2/heroic wizard 20/epic wizard 3 builds.
This is good in that unbalance multiclassing will not be possible in that manner;
and multiclass builds will be able to have epic abilities.

All in all, good news, that I am very pleased with.
Shows the Devs are thinking a lot about this.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


I would like to see feat requirements reduced and separated from enhancements anywhere possible.
(Which I think a Dev already stated long ago that was being considered.)

Dragonmarks only costing one feat instead of three. Halflings come to life!

Past life active feats costing a lot of action points instead, possibly a separate tree for this with past life bonus action points to spend on it. (I can dream anyway...)

Prestigue classes requiring less feats. (already definately underconsideration by Devs with certain features not unlocked without the proper feat)

Some less popular feats unlocked with action points (like that descriptive variations: Stealthy, Athletic, etc...)

[Red_Knight]

It will be interesting to see how epic levels are actually done though. I also have some concerns about just how powerful we'll get by the time we hit level 25. In PnP epic levels tend to get stupid powerful. And a few years ago the devs said that a DDO character by level 10 is the equivalent in power to a level 20 character due to the enhancement system.

So just how overpowered with the epic enhancements make us?

[saco]

Thats why I think they should add in "Hybrid" PrEs to give a place to PrEs that don't fit with just one class..Eldritch Knight require levels in both an arcane and martial class...Sacred Fist requires Monk + Cleric...Arcane Trickster requires Wizard + Rogue Mech...????? requires Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker (this just needs to be done)....Corrupt Avenger requires Palemaster+Divine Avenger....etc. It would add something unique to deep splashes which at this point is needed since the new system from what we know will heavily favor Single Class/Light Splash builds.

Here's a quick example using Swiftbalde (and using the Tempest Template)

The Requirements:

Tier 1 Enhancements: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Enhancements: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Enhancements: Arcane3/Martial3 CL 9
Tier 4 Enhancements: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 12
Tier 5 Enhancements: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 15
Tier 6 Enhancements: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble,etc.

Oooo I like and was gonna post something along the same lines. Hybrid PrEs would be real nice for those hybrid classes. Want my arcane trickster :(

[HatsuharuZ]

I would like to see feat requirements reduced and separated from enhancements anywhere possible.
(Which I think a Dev already stated long ago that was being considered.)

Dragonmarks only costing one feat instead of three. Halflings come to life!

Past life active feats costing a lot of action points instead, possibly a separate tree for this with past life bonus action points to spend on it. (I can dream anyway...)

Prestigue classes requiring less feats. (already definately underconsideration by Devs with certain features not unlocked without the proper feat)

Some less popular feats unlocked with action points (like that descriptive variations: Stealthy, Athletic, etc...)

These all sound heavenly, imo. But I have to wonder: Aren't most of the PrE feat requirements the ones that a player would take anyways, or somehow enhance the abilities of the toon that is taking the PrE? I can understand why a Frenzied Berserker wouldn't want to take plain ol' cleave, when he/she gets the supreme version, and I truly hate how rangers need *4* feats for all 3 tiers of Tempest, but what about the others?

[Red_Knight]

These all sound heavenly, imo. But I have to wonder: Aren't most of the PrE feat requirements the ones that a player would take anyways, or somehow enhance the abilities of the toon that is taking the PrE? I can understand why a Frenzied Berserker wouldn't want to take plain ol' cleave, when he/she gets the supreme version, and I truly hate how rangers need *4* feats for all 3 tiers of Tempest, but what about the others?

Some of the feat requirements are things that make me go 'huh'. Take shinto monk for example. Power attack I can sort of see, same for stunning fist. Both are feats a monk might take anyway. But the other feat requirement to take shinto tier 1 means you're likely taking a wasted feat. I know I for one only took diehard on my monk to qualify for the prestige. I much rather would have taken improved two weapon fighting or weapon finesse at those levels.

[Failedlegend]

Some of the feat requirements are things that make me go 'huh'. Take shinto monk for example. Power attack I can sort of see, same for stunning fist. Both are feats a monk might take anyway. But the other feat requirement to take shinto tier 1 means you're likely taking a wasted feat. I know I for one only took diehard on my monk to qualify for the prestige. I much rather would have taken improved two weapon fighting or weapon finesse at those levels.

I don't think it really matters as the Devs have said their reducing if not outright removing feat requirements for a PrE and making the only pre-req being class level and AP spent.

[Talias006]

Couple notes in orange (did some reordering)

Parts about Bladesinger...
I only recalled (at first) Races of Faerûn's version of that PrC, and it requires 3 ranks of Perform and ability to cast 1st level arcane spells.

So Bard is a good fit with just those requirements.
Of course, that version is also quite Feat heavy and includes one not on the list for DDO: Still Spell.

After reviewing other sources I have access to, Tome & Blood version is only slightly different in terms of requirements, needing 2 different versions of Perform at 3 ranks.
The iteration in Complete Warrior is even easier on requirements, needing Perform 2 in 2 types which translates well into 4 Perform.

And the point of all this rambling is that AFAIK, Perform is still a Bard only skill and untrainable until you have 1 level of it.

[HatsuharuZ]

I don't think it really matters as the Devs have said their reducing if not outright removing feat requirements for a PrE and making the only pre-req being class level and AP spent.

But all that could be subject to change, right? Furthermore, the devs are reading this thread and considering the views of the players. Since that is the case, the merits or removing and/or changing the requirements for PrEs is still significant.

My opinion is this: There should be feat requirements for the PrEs that have them. The feat requirements themselves, however, should be changed to feats that have something to do with the PrE, or the FEATS should be changed so that they are more useful to a build that would take that particular PrE. Tempest, in particular, needs work. I was really glad to see that example in which the tempest "tree" has haste boost. It's heavenly to have on my fighter toon. :D

[Failedlegend]

A level 12 wizard could take their 13th level as bladesinger too.


I just noticed this part of the post...and I'm very much against it

I actually LOVE the way Turbine translated Prestiges in DDO since I loathed the way it was done in 3/3.5...a long time ago I was trying to create a system similar to how DDO handles prestige classes which I called the "Guild System" so instead of taking a level in it you needed to do certain requirements to "Join the Guild" (ie. a Black Flame Zealot would have to join "The Order of the Black Flame") and normally I'd limit them to one but I would allow two or three depending on the situation.

Basically a player would build a character with 1-4ish "Base" classes than choose a "Guild" to join (we would dedicate a session to making our characters and figuring out our basic back stories) and the next session would basically be the players trying to accomplish the "Initiation Tasks" that I made up since the last session. I never fully completed it as I moved on to 4e but what I had done seemed to be well received by my players and when I finished it we were likely going to make it an official house rule.

Sidenote: My PnP games use 4e as a base and cherry pick rules we liked from 3/3.5 I'm really looking forward to D&D Next (ie. The mixing of the Vancian Magic System and At-will powers)

[Red_Knight]

For the most part I actually like how 3.5 deals with prestige classes. As for fourth edition... I hate it for various reasons. One of the biggest being that the books feel like they are insulting the player.

I could definitely approve of many feats getting improved. While they might be okay in PnP, the various skill focus feats seem like wasted effort in DDO. Why take a feat that improves your Spot skill by 1 for example, when you can equip an item that increases it by 5 instead and use that feat for something else?

[Redicular]

Some of the feat requirements are things that make me go 'huh'. Take shinto monk for example. Power attack I can sort of see, same for stunning fist. Both are feats a monk might take anyway. But the other feat requirement to take shinto tier 1 means you're likely taking a wasted feat. I know I for one only took diehard on my monk to qualify for the prestige. I much rather would have taken improved two weapon fighting or weapon finesse at those levels.

um... PA isn't a pre-req for shintao. cleave is an option, and for the power-/meta- gamer its the most useful of the pre-reqs, explaining why so many shintaos have PA in their first few feats

worst thing about the requirements for shintao is, at least according to the oriental adventures version, they're all pure DDO creations. oriental adventures has the requirements as:
still mind(monk level 3)
+4 base will save(monk level 4)
lawful good(easily supplanted by forcing light path)
8 ranks of knowledge[religion](apparently this translates into 2 feats and 12 points of enhancements)

[Aelonwy]

I thought of something a little sideways to the topic. Since we're having a revamp of the enhancements can warforged in their racial tree please get a Repair Amp option as well as the healing amp, or maybe an either/or option. It would go nicely with the Juggernaut vs. Reforged if the devs ever decide to implement them.

Repair Amp would make an awful nice addition to the game in other ways as well such as on equipment.

[Red_Knight]

As well as maybe either feats or enhancements to continue the artificer 'self forged' path. Construct essence is okay for non-WF artificers to allow self healing. But shouldn't there be stuff to further the path to becoming a magical cyborg?

[Failedlegend]

As well as maybe either feats or enhancements to continue the artificer 'self forged' path. Construct essence is okay for non-WF artificers to allow self healing. But shouldn't there be stuff to further the path to becoming a magical cyborg?

I have a feeling that will likely be in the Master Maker Tree...along with more boosts to Crafting, UMD, Clickie stuff and of course so puppy related stuff

[bigolbear]

I thought of something a little sideways to the topic. Since we're having a revamp of the enhancements can warforged in their racial tree please get a Repair Amp option as well as the healing amp, or maybe an either/or option. It would go nicely with the Juggernaut vs. Reforged if the devs ever decide to implement them.

Repair Amp would make an awful nice addition to the game in other ways as well such as on equipment.

Id second these sentiments but with a word of caution. The warforge situation at the minute is they make fantastic casters/artis, but terible meles.(at high lvls)

If anything this is against the lore, were talking about a constructed war machine here after all.

The warforge heal amp needs to come down in cost and go up in effectiveness (or better be replaced by some SERIOUS damage mitigation, and the best way to do that is % based rather than or in addition to the flat DR they curently have.

regarding repair amp - yes id love to see it on my wf meles, but heres the thing it would be one more jump up for wf arcanes so any repair amp, DR, or % mitigation needs to come with a penalty to arcane casting (i would suggest Arcane Spell Failure).

The reson I would say ASF is because wf already have enhancements to mitigate it to a certain extent, and gear can be obtained to do this as well. This means there is still an option for WF arcanes to build with damage mitigation and repair amp, but doing so will cost them heavily in both AP's and gear slots - meaning they will be appropriately weaker in other areas.

Wf mele on the other hand who actualy need this boost will not be detrimentaly effected by ASF.

I remember the days when warforge mele DR meant something, DR 5 was hard to get for other races and DR 10 unheard of. Now any **** fool of a FVS, barb, monk, or any class with a bit of gear can get it easily. Id Like warforge to move back to a situation where the inherant damage resistance is appropraite to the healing penalty.

[Aelonwy]

The warforge heal amp needs to come down in cost and go up in effectiveness (or better be replaced by some SERIOUS damage mitigation, and the best way to do that is % based rather than or in addition to the flat DR they curently have.

regarding repair amp - yes id love to see it on my wf meles, but heres the thing it would be one more jump up for wf arcanes so any repair amp, DR, or % mitigation needs to come with a penalty to arcane casting (i would suggest Arcane Spell Failure).


Wouldn't bother me either way. I play a wf wiz with my hubby's wf melee. My character doesn't require the repair amp but hubby's could definitely make use of it. It just made sense that it would be in the racial tab, because what other race would need it? I'd be fine with ASF attatched to it. I'm not sure that it would affect arcane wf either way... I mean if you think about it, we typically (though not always) have far less hp than the melee types, we aren't usually in the thick of the fighting (although there are exceptions) and we have other ways of increasing our repair output inorder to maximize how much we're healed. I'm thinking repair amp would be most coveted by and used by those wf melee that want to be able to down repair potions and umd a repair wand in or after battle. Would help wf tanks alot to be better healed by either div or arcane.

[Gorbadoc]

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)

The other day, I read most of the dev comments and skimmed many of the player comments. It just dawned on me:

All but one of these are melee PREs. The one exception is an archery PRE. None of them improves spellcasting ability.

Will there be racial access to caster PREs? Elves get that crazy wizard-only SP enhancement; maybe they should be allowed to unlock the Archmage tab. Dwarves are the same way, but for cleric and paladin; maybe they should get Radiant Servant.


Or here's a better idea: Have a generic casting PRE that's open to ANYONE. Make its SLAs use ANY casting stat (int, wis, or cha-- whichever is highest). Fork out 20 AP, and your melee class can dabble in offensive casting. For 40 AP he can get some solidly respectable spells.

Something like this exists in PnP. MANY classes and prestige classes combine melee ability with casting ability. A paladin with wizard spell-like abilities would feel like an Eldritch Knight. A rogue with wizard spell-like abilities would feel like an assassin. A melee-specced wizard-rogue mix would feel like an arcane trickster. A bard with GOOD offensive spells would feel like a REAL spellsinger*.

Now, I was bothered by the obvious objection: It would be unfair to give good spells to non-caster classes. Then I thought about what makes a build a caster build in DDO. It's not the SLA spells. It's the ability scores, it's the enhancements, and it's the level 8-9 spells (which I am NOT advocating opening as SLAs, with the possible exception of Mass Hold Monster to bards). The wizards and clerics will still have better DCs, and, thanks to enhancements, their nuke spells will still deal more damage. And it's not like every paladin will flock to learn Web: These enhancements will cost AP that could have been spent improving that paladin's aura or DPS.

Anyway, good luck improving the enhancement system.

*: I have two capped bards. One is casting-specced; the other is melee-specced. Guess which one I don't play much anymore.

[BoolZ]

>snip<

All but one of these are melee PREs. The one exception is an archery PRE. None of them improves spellcasting ability. >snip<



I actually really, REALLY, liked that and was looking at it more of a way to buff some melees. Drow especially with the ability to add Tempest 3 to any class. Human specifically with Tempest, Assassin, or Ravager.

As for Spell Casters? They still get the bump. Halfling/Human Assassin pure Wizard. Either PM focusing on level drain and instant death, or AM with crowd control. Warforged/Human pure FVS with Stalwart Defender.

[Failedlegend]

I actually really, REALLY, liked that and was looking at it more of a way to buff some melees.



All but one of these are melee PREs. The one exception is an archery PRE. None of them improves spellcasting ability.


Ok look I'm starting to see MAYBE there's a reason for these "Carbon Copy" Racial PrEs...to give a boost to the melees...but come Devs I implore you...you have a chance to pretty much redo any enhancement you want with this...just improve melee PrEs (and ranged ones, don't forget about us :D) don't revoke our actual RACIAL PrEs to do it.

Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Make it complement DoS & SD)
Halfing: Talentia Rider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly (Yeah I know this sort of breaks my no Carbon Copy rule but it fits)

[Grailhawk]

All but one of these are melee PREs. The one exception is an archery PRE. None of them improves spellcasting ability.

The racial PREs should be picked from the races favored class. By the book that means
Dwarf: Fighter
Warforged: Fighter
Human: Any
Half-Elf: Any (but in DDO the Dilettante should be factored in)
Elf: Wizard
Drow: Wizard (male) or Cleric (female)
Halfling: Rogue
Half-Orc: Barbarian

Though I personally am fine with using Ranger for Elf and Drow, Wizard is the right class.

[Silverleafeon]

They are clever cookies.

[Grailhawk]

So thinking about races and favored class I'm kind of thinking that it would be cool if rather then a Racial Prestige Line what if the Races just gave you the ability to choose any Prestige from its Favored class. This thread is big enough that maybe its been discussed all ready but has any though been given to it?

[Failedlegend]

So thinking about races and favored class I'm kind of thinking that it would be cool if rather then a Racial Prestige Line what if the Races just gave you the ability to choose any Prestige from its Favored class. This thread is big enough that maybe its been discussed all ready but has any though been given to it?

The general consensus is to give them actual racially oriented PrEs (see below) than to give them bonuses based on their favored class (ie. Any level gating for said class reduced by X)


Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Make it complement DoS & SD)
Halfing: Talentia Rider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly (Yeah I know this sort of breaks my no Carbon Copy rule but it fits)

[HatsuharuZ]

What about Dragonmark Heir PrEs? Humans can get access to 4 of them, and all other races except drow and wf'd get 1. Just make it so that the player only needs to take one or two feats to unlock the PrE, then give each Dragonmark Heir access to more spells relating to the "theme" of the mark, especially buffing spells, along with some other bonuses.

Example: Dragonmark of Sentinel could get some stacking DR/stacking % damage mitigation, some spells/spell-like abilities from the abjuration school, and armor proficiency if they don't already have it. Or how about a combat stance that emulates Combat Expertise. The trick would be to make it so that while each mark has some synergy with other classes, it's not more POWERFUL than the other PrEs.

As for drow, I really like what little I've been able to find on Scorpion Wraith. It sounds like it would go well with drow rogues and rangers. It would be really nice if it came with, say, 10% stacking miss chance due to concealment along with the extra poison-typed damage.

[Grailhawk]

I don't think I agree with the general consensus then (though I wouldn't say I'm against it, its a fine idea).

Do to the lack of proper Prestige Classes in DDO Prestige Enhancements are strongly associated with a given class. It seams to me a bit disjointed adding unique classes elements onto a raise. Where as letting a Raise take something from its favored class seams more natural.

[Failedlegend]

DM Heirs

The dragonmarks are being woven into the Racial Trees and are likely being reduced to 1 feat.

[Gorbadoc]

I actually really, REALLY, liked that and was looking at it more of a way to buff some melees. Drow especially with the ability to add Tempest 3 to any class. Human specifically with Tempest, Assassin, or Ravager.

As for Spell Casters? They still get the bump. Halfling/Human Assassin pure Wizard. Either PM focusing on level drain and instant death, or AM with crowd control. Warforged/Human pure FVS with Stalwart Defender.
Yeah. I originally wrote "None of them helps spellcasters." Then I realized what you've pointed out: A melee PrE can help a caster. You give two great examples: Assassin and Stalwart Defender don't improve your spells, but they can work well with the spells you already have.


Ok look I'm starting to see MAYBE there's a reason for these "Carbon Copy" Racial PrEs...to give a boost to the melees...
Actually, I think these melee racial PrEs are bad news for melee classes. The real boost goes to melee-specced caster classes. Consider:

Melee classes will be better at melee-- kind of. They'll certainly have a greater variety of options. The thing is, melee classes already have melee enhancements. The drow barbarian who unlocks Tempest will just have different melee enhancements. Some enhancement tabs will be better than others, but if a tab is too much better, it will be nerfed.

Now consider a pure favored soul. He will be gaining substantial melee enhancements where previously he had none (okay, I exaggerate: He had about 20 AP worth of Action Boosts, Toughness, and Weapon Specialization). Spec a favored soul's ability scores for melee, and give him TWFx3 and the full Tempest line, and his melee performance will be in the same ballpark as a fighter's. On top of that, he'll still have Quickened Maximized Blade Barriers and Divine Punishments, plus all his healing spells, plus all his no-save and utility spells, plus his DR*. Against that kind of firepower, how is any pure melee class supposed to compete?

*: Sample build
Drow favored soul 20
Str 16 (+levelups)
Dex 15 (+2 tome for ITWF, GTWF)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 13

Feats:
Toughness
Maximize
Quicken
TWFx3
Imp Crit: Piercing (rapiers)

Enhancements:
Full Tempest
Full Light Damage
Remaining points (there won't be many) scattered between Toughness, Life Magic, and maybe an action boost.

Note: The devs have hinted that feat prerequisites will be lightening up. Even if they aren't, though, such that this exact build won't work, this type of thing will still be a problem-- i.e. pure caster class melee builds will dominate.

And, of course, if the feat requirements for Tempest AREN'T relaxing, then the whole racial tempest thing is a joke, since no one but a fighter or ranger can reasonably afford Spring Attack and the full TWF line.

[Failedlegend]

stuff

Just to clarify I was grasping at the only reason i could think of as to why the Devs are taking our racial pres away and replacing them with carbon copies other than time restraints of course and if its that I'd rather they just have no racial PrEs (beyond AA) and save them for a later date when they have the time.

Edit: Officially at 3800 posts...come on devs give us MOAR!! we still have the same amount of information we had 180ish pages ago

[Grailhawk]

Now consider a pure favored soul. He will be gaining substantial melee enhancements where previously he had none (okay, I exaggerate: He had about 20 AP worth of Action Boosts, Toughness, and Weapon Specialization). Spec a favored soul's ability scores for melee, and give him TWFx3 and the full Tempest line, and his melee performance will be in the same ballpark as a fighter's. On top of that, he'll still have Quickened Maximized Blade Barriers and Divine Punishments, plus all his healing spells, plus all his no-save and utility spells, plus his DR*. Against that kind of firepower, how is any pure melee class supposed to compete?

I'm not sure I agree with this the melee damage will be better then it is now but it will still be behind the Tempest Kensei Fighter. The low Wisdom will mean the that BB will only do half damage DP is the only really good offence spell your build seams to have that may make up the different in DPS but it might not. Yes it has more utility then the Tempest Kensei but that's kind of a given it being a caster.

[Monkey-Boy]

And, of course, if the feat requirements for Tempest AREN'T relaxing, then the whole racial tempest thing is a joke, since no one but a fighter or ranger can reasonably afford Spring Attack and the full TWF line.

Relaxing the feat requirements too much would allow for ridiculous combos like the one you meantion . . . maybe they SHOULDN'T be relaxed?

I'm more concerned about an evoker taking archmage.

[Vargouille]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.

[Cyr]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack.

Those had better be some good enhancements to buy dodge, mobility, and spring attack to qualify for.

[Snarglefrump]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.

Will Tempest enhancements to off-hand proc rates continue to work with unarmed combat?

(most of my toons are Monk 12 / Ranger 6 / Rogue 2, Ninja Spy Tempest)

[Monkey-Boy]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.

First I'd like to thank you for the interaction, it is greatly appreciated and we all look forward to more of it.

So Shield of Whirling Steel would require the feat(s) . . . but the OFFENSIVE portion of Tempest would not? Am I understanding that correctly?

If the Tempest AC bonus is still going to remain a shield type of an AC bonus I can't say it's worth a feat at all as this can be substituted with shield wands. if it moves to un-typed AC bonus or includes some kind of non-stacking % based damage reduction (like monk Earth Stance or Shield Mastery) then it might be worth it.

[patang01]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.

So we're still talking about awful feats in order to get some Pres.

[Cyr]

So we're still talking about awful feats in order to get some Pres.

No those would be for the purchasable defensive line within the tempest tree. There would be other stuff in the tree I presume that you could purchase to get the PrE benefits for free without investing in that junk if you didn't want it.

[Yaga_Nub]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.

Will there be any enhancements to Dodge available through AP?

[Aelonwy]

Hey Vargouille can we get a firm answer as to whether the Enhancement redo is coming out with the expansion or U14? Fernando was just a little ambiguous for me with this statement:



There is so much great stuff coming with Menace of the Underdark that I can’t possibly cover it all here. In addition to the premium features we’ve already discussed, there will be a large number of technology upgrades, system updates and bug fixes which will improve the game experience for all of our players. For example, we are completely overhauling our enhancement system and filling out the PrEs for all classes!

It sounds like he's saying the Enhancements change will come with the expansion but.... I just want to be sure.

Also glad to see someone at Turbine is still keeping up with this thread. Kudos to you. I was beginning to think we were all just talking to ourselves at this point. Oh and will we see the new enhancement UI on Lammania before it is sent to live? I hope so. But no one has said so definitively.

[Coldin]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.

Interesting. I would rather like a TWF that actually has a usable AC/Defense. Especially if that TWF has a very high dex.

Of course, I come at this as a Drow Fighter/Rogue, who is hoping that Tempest will be obtainable for being a Drow. :)

[Failedlegend]

Oh and will we see the new enhancement UI on Lammania before it is sent to live? I hope so. But no one has said so definitively.

Has anything EVER skipped Lama?

The question is when and I'm hoping soon...like ASAP..I don't care if your only half finished and most of it doesn't work...let us tear it apart so you can rebuild it before its too late. I'm hoping late May early April we'll at least get some reveals if not a builder of some sort

[Vargouille]

So Shield of Whirling Steel would require the feat(s) . . . but the OFFENSIVE portion of Tempest would not? Am I understanding that correctly?

There are some new enhancements, this isn't specifically about existing enhancements. They may or may not be part of this line, details still to be determined, etc. There's new planned enhancements that increase the offense of Tempest as well. It's not just the existing enhancements shuffled around. Only a handful of enhancements would require Dodge in any way.

[Monkey-Boy]

There are some new enhancements, this isn't specifically about existing enhancements. They may or may not be part of this line, details still to be determined, etc. There's new planned enhancements that increase the offense of Tempest as well. It's not just the existing enhancements shuffled around. Only a handful of enhancements would require Dodge in any way.


As it stand now the only defensive aspects of Tempest is the Shield of Whirling Steel's AC bonus . . . is that being changed?


We all know and accept that everything is tentative and subject to change


We won't hold you to it if you let us know what you're thinking :)

[Coldin]

There are some new enhancements, this isn't specifically about existing enhancements. They may or may not be part of this line, details still to be determined, etc. There's new planned enhancements that increase the offense of Tempest as well. It's not just the existing enhancements shuffled around. Only a handful of enhancements would require Dodge in any way.

Is the system up to the point where we might see a full PRE tree yet? All subject to change of course, but would be interesting to see how abilities might progress, and the relative power level of the free PRE enhancements.

[Cyr]

There are some new enhancements, this isn't specifically about existing enhancements. They may or may not be part of this line, details still to be determined, etc. There's new planned enhancements that increase the offense of Tempest as well. It's not just the existing enhancements shuffled around. Only a handful of enhancements would require Dodge in any way.

I can play the guessing game better then most...


Improved Dodge (X tiers): This feat improves the AC bonus from the dodge feat by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Dodge Feat. Cost 2 AP/Tier
Improved Mobility (X tiers): This feat increases the max dex bonus of armor you wear by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Dodge Feat. Cost 1 AP/Tier
Improved Shield of Whirling Steel (X tiers): This feat increases the shield bonus to AC granted by Shield of Whirling Steel by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Spring Attack Feat. Cost 2 SP/Tier

[Aelonwy]

Has anything EVER skipped Lama?

The question is when and I'm hoping soon...like ASAP..I don't care if your only half finished and most of it doesn't work...let us tear it apart so you can rebuild it before its too late. I'm hoping late May early April we'll at least get some reveals if not a builder of some sort

Actually I don't know if anything has ever skipped lama. I just want to be sure this won't be the first. I don't think anything previous has had me on the edge of my seat like this except maybe the debacle of adding named items to cannith crafting... can you imagine if that had hit live without being seen and shotdown on lama? Besides if it was absolutely going to lama eventually... why hasn't anyone said "yes of course"? No assurances whatsoever on that point. Maybe unnecessary. Maybe not. Maybe I just have a worry-wort personality. ;)

[Coldin]

Has anything EVER skipped Lama?

The question is when and I'm hoping soon...like ASAP..I don't care if your only half finished and most of it doesn't work...let us tear it apart so you can rebuild it before its too late. I'm hoping late May early April we'll at least get some reveals if not a builder of some sort

There's been a couple things here and there. Mainly when they want to leave something a surprise for live content. Look at the Birthday Cakes and Preorder Tickets for a recent example.

[Gorbadoc]

Hey, Vargouille! It's great to see you in the conversation.

I wonder if we could we get an update on the generic caster enhancements?

There was talk many pages ago about how it would be weird to shoehorn a wizard's elemental damage enhancements into one PrE's tab over another's. If there's a tentative solution kicking around the development table, I'd love to hear it.

[Grailhawk]

I can play the guessing game better then most...


Improved Dodge (X tiers): This feat improves the AC bonus from the dodge feat by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Dodge Feat. Cost 2 AP/Tier
Improved Mobility (X tiers): This feat increases the max dex bonus of armor you wear by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Dodge Feat. Cost 1 AP/Tier
Improved Shield of Whirling Steel (X tiers): This feat increases the shield bonus to AC granted by Shield of Whirling Steel by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Spring Attack Feat. Cost 2 SP/Tier


2 AP/Tier is highway robbery.

I would like to see something like
Insightful Dodge - Add your wisdom bonus to your AC (4 AP) Requires Dodge & Mobility

That could be the top level of that tree.

[Monkey-Boy]

2 AP/Tier is highway robbery.

I would like to see something like
Insightful Dodge - Add your wisdom bonus to your AC (4 AP) Requires Dodge & Mobility

That could be the top level of that tree.


I really don't see anything like that happening . . . if you want that splash monk.

Unless AC works in epic is there any point to that anyway?

[Thrudh]

Unless AC works in epic is there any point to that anyway?

There's more to the game than epic.

[aristarchus1000]

I really don't see anything like that happening . . . if you want that splash monk.

Unless AC works in epic is there any point to that anyway?

Interesting... a defensive line to rangers. It would be interesting to have another viable tanking line other than fighters/paladins. I do think that there will need to be some boost in hp or "defensive stance" as well to make it viable for raid tanking.

Also, it still can be a useful line for leveling AC.

Anyway, thanks for giving us updates. We understand that nothing is set in stone... so... feel free to share more! =)

[Failedlegend]

I can play the guessing game better then most...


Improved Dodge (X tiers): This feat improves the AC bonus from the dodge feat by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Dodge Feat. Cost 2 AP/Tier
Improved Mobility (X tiers): This feat increases the max dex bonus of armor you wear by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Dodge Feat. Cost 1 AP/Tier
Improved Shield of Whirling Steel (X tiers): This feat increases the shield bonus to AC granted by Shield of Whirling Steel by 1 per tier purchased. Requires Spring Attack Feat. Cost 2 SP/Tier


It's already been said all but the most powerful abilities will be 1Ap per tier

[Grailhawk]

I really don't see anything like that happening . . . if you want that splash monk.

Unless AC works in epic is there any point to that anyway?

I will splash monk and ill take the extra feat and the handwrap usage that gives me. But it would be nice if they gave me something to want to contemplate staying pure. Other then the full Strength to off-hand damage and it alone is still not enough to make me think 19 and 20 ranger are worth it. Adding that kind of AC bonus with the off hand strength thing might make me think about staying pure but handwraps and 1 feat are huge.

Basically with Ranger the high end Enh need to be as good as 1 a 2 level splash or there's no point in staying pure. Its true now and I don't really expect the enh pass to change that but i can make suggestions.

Some times your not in Epics you know like when you are tanking Sulo in TOD, or in elite sins.

[sirgog]

2 AP/Tier is highway robbery.

I would like to see something like
Insightful Dodge - Add your wisdom bonus to your AC (4 AP) Requires Dodge & Mobility

That could be the top level of that tree.

2 AC a tier is dirt cheap if these effects would increase your AC by one AND you have an AC that is 'on the die'.

If you are missed on a 2 and hit on a 19, each point of AC is easily worth 30+ hitpoints at endgame. And with the increasing number of weapons recently that do damage based on Dexterity or Strength, it looks like Dex based Tempests (the ones that can get a decent AC, one that is 'on the die' against epic trash) will be viable.

As for the Wisdom suggestion - players that want that effect have to pay a high price for it now (losing 5th FE, losing access to the new Tempest capstone that's been revealed, losing access to light armor) and still most rangers do it. Effects that potent should not be 4 AP effects.

[Cyr]

2 AP/Tier is highway robbery.

I would like to see something like
Insightful Dodge - Add your wisdom bonus to your AC (4 AP) Requires Dodge & Mobility

That could be the top level of that tree.

LOL

Highway robbery...

2 AP for the benefits of a feat is pretty dang cheap IMHO.

As for the idea to allow non-monk wisdom to AC with any armor for a whole (4 AP) yeah that sounds really balanced.

[Grailhawk]

2 AC a tier is dirt cheap if these effects would increase your AC by one AND you have an AC that is 'on the die'.

If you are missed on a 2 and hit on a 19, each point of AC is easily worth 30+ hitpoints at endgame. And with the increasing number of weapons recently that do damage based on Dexterity or Strength, it looks like Dex based Tempests (the ones that can get a decent AC, one that is 'on the die' against epic trash) will be viable.

2 AP per tier might be fair in game now but part of the stated goal of the ENH pass is to boost melee if that's the case keeping good stuff cheep is part of that. That goes to the 4 for the wisdom thing to 4 would be way to cheep for that effect in the current game 6 maybe even 8 would be right as it is now.



As for the Wisdom suggestion - players that want that effect have to pay a high price for it now (losing 5th FE, losing access to the new Tempest capstone that's been revealed, losing access to light armor) and still most rangers do it. Effects that potent should not be 4 AP effects.

All the stuff you list is still not equal to what they get from 1 level of monk 1 feat handwraps and the AC bonus. What I'm trying to get at is that the magnitude of the changes for Ranger at the high level need to be as strong as a level splash because the class it self doesn't have much going on there at all its a front loaded class.

[Grailhawk]

LOL

Highway robbery...

2 AP for the benefits of a feat is pretty dang cheap IMHO.

As for the idea to allow non-monk wisdom to AC with any armor for a whole (4 AP) yeah that sounds really balanced.

At current Rangers pay 6 AP for 3 ac (Favored Defense) If part of the goal of the ENH pass is to lower costs then I would say that ya 2 AP is over priced. Yes you can make the case that the Enh you suggest covers all enemies so its worth more but that's not that big a deal when so many of the high end content is Evil Outsiders.


Iv addressed the wisdom thing in other replies.

Just saw the any part that was not my intent I should have specified no armor. Could maybe pay another 2 points for light armor to get the wisdom thing but that's not needed.

[Glenalth]

Unless AC works in epic is there any point to that anyway?

AC can work fine in most epics for damage mitigation. The hard part is getting a decent AC against bosses while still being useful otherwise.

[Monkey-Boy]

There's more to the game than epic.

And in non-epic you can already get plenty of AC on a ranger.

[Monkey-Boy]

AC can work fine in most epics for damage mitigation. The hard part is getting a decent AC against bosses while still being useful otherwise.

95-100 does, but saying that "works fine" is a bit of nonsense.

[Failedlegend]

And in non-epic you can already get plenty of AC on a ranger.

See the thing is Epic can longer be used as a gauge for balancing heroic content now that Epic Levels, feats, enhancements,etc. are being implement


Heroic COntent -> Balanced with heroic classes,etc.

Epic Content -> Balanced against Epic Levels,etc.

[Kielbasa]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.

Considering how tempest is being merged together with dervish I'd give tempests spring attack for free or as an unlockable enhancement possibly requiring dodge and mobility. This would free up a feat for tempest rangers giving them a little more build variety. If dodge, mobility, and spring attack are being kept in the tempest line then the enhancements opened up by those feats had better be pretty juicy considering how many feats that would tie up. More choices and flexibility are a good thing so error on the side of less required feats to start and add more restrictions if something warrants it.

What I'm more interested in seeing is a mock up of deepwood sniper since it has always been lacking in ddo. I can foresee many melee centric rangers using this as their secondary pre where they grab their favored enemy damage boosts and some sort of marked target/quarry/you're my b$#@^ mechanic being implemented. At least I hope a sniper will be able to single out certain targets for swift and certain death.

[Yaga_Nub]

.... At least I hope a sniper will be able to single out certain targets for swift and certain death.

Would that include party members because there's definitely times I want to take out PUG party members? :)

[orakio]

At current Rangers pay 6 AP for 3 ac (Favored Defense) If part of the goal of the ENH pass is to lower costs then I would say that ya 2 AP is over priced. Yes you can make the case that the Enh you suggest covers all enemies so its worth more but that's not that big a deal when so many of the high end content is Evil Outsiders.


Iv addressed the wisdom thing in other replies.

Just saw the any part that was not my intent I should have specified no armor. Could maybe pay another 2 points for light armor to get the wisdom thing but that's not needed.

6 AP for Favored Defense only adds to AC against favored enemies. In the new system 6 ap for 3 AC would work against everything, thats an upgrade.

PART of the goal is to lower the cost as the 1/2/3/4 or even worse 2/4/6 system is really costly but that doesn't mean potent effects, like AC and things like healing amp, won't go to a 2/2/2 system. As irrelevant as AC can become late game it is still extremely powerful on characters for most of the game if you have sufficient amounts.

Also 4 ap for wisdom to AC is too good, I agree that its a feature of monks that should stay with monks and require some sacrifice to get.

[kingfisher]

Tentative plan for Tempest includes a single defensive line that requires Dodge and Mobility at various points, possibly Spring Attack. Many Tempest enhancements will only work when Two-Weapon Fighting, but don't strictly require any feats. You could probably be a terrible zero-feats TWF and still use a lot of Tempest TWF stuff, or the other enhancements that don't require TWF at all.


There are some new enhancements, this isn't specifically about existing enhancements. They may or may not be part of this line, details still to be determined, etc. There's new planned enhancements that increase the offense of Tempest as well. It's not just the existing enhancements shuffled around. Only a handful of enhancements would require Dodge in any way.

you guys have really cornered yourselves here with this enh change. you are going to have to give a free lr per character almost no? i mean these are some pretty huge changes and its not stopping at enhancements, its feats, build points, class choices (wis bonus to ac on a non monk?), racial choice, etc. no build will be the same after this change without some work beyond just resetting enhancements. no way you can just dump this all on the playerbase and then send out a mass email - LR/GR on sale all week in the DDO Store - 10% off!!

and i still dont understand why you would want to give drow tempest. this is not a ra salvatore book. and the twf/scimmy drow was an exception to his race, not the norm. giving all drow this option is so cheesy. please do not do this.

[ka0t1c1sm]

and i still dont understand why you would want to give drow tempest. this is not a ra salvatore book. and the twf/scimmy drow was an exception to his race, not the norm.

Not gonna argue your point about Eberron Drow as I'm not well versed in the lore, but dual wielding Drow were the norm in Faerun, although they preferred longer, straight bladed weapons.

/derail off

[kingfisher]

Not gonna argue your point about Eberron Drow as I'm not well versed in the lore, but dual wielding Drow were the norm in Faerun, although they preferred longer, straight bladed weapons.

/derail off

yes dual SS or LS/SS drow were the norm for those drow that failed to live up to the preferred classes of their race, ie wizzy for males and clerics for females. does it make sense to base the racial pre for DDO drow on the last option cannon fodder that melee drow are?

[Gorbadoc]

I'm not-so-secretly hoping that, whatever a tempest can do with a scimitar, he can also do with a rapier. It just seems bizarre to make scimitars light but not rapiers. Rapiers ARE lighter weapons; that's why they're finessable normally.

Then there's variety and the in-game economy. I would have hoped the devs would encourage a VARIETY of weapon options. Scimitar was already a powerful weapon option, though; it didn't really need additional encouragement. What about the scimitar's already-light cousin, the kukri? Also, druids are being added: Scimitars will already be in high demand for non-shifter melee builds.

[HatsuharuZ]

The dragonmarks are being woven into the Racial Trees and are likely being reduced to 1 feat.

I already read about that. But is that all? Reducing the feat requirement would be nice, and it would make dragonmarks more popular, but that's it. My suggestion is that there be dragonmark heir PrEs (along with scorp wraith, juggernaut and reforged) instead of just using regular melee PrEs. For me it's mostly a flavor thing, but I'd like for each race to bring something TRULY unique to the table. Dragonmarks seem to be the best way to do this, considering the setting of the game.

Though to be honest, I do think that ravager seems a better fit for half-orcs than the mark of finding, since most half-orcs toons are melee-oriented.

Edit: On a related note.... in-game, don't members of the dragonmarked houses usually use the powers of their dragonmarks to make themselves better at their chosen profession? House Deneith members are fighters, first and foremost, while members of House House Phiarlan are mostly bards and rogues. The Dragonmark just makes them better at what their house trains them to do. Special training, that is, apart from how they advance in their main trade, which is basically what a prestige class/enhancement is, right?

[nibel]

and i still dont understand why you would want to give drow tempest. this is not a ra salvatore book. and the twf/scimmy drow was an exception to his race, not the norm.

Goblins. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07112005/)

[MalarKan]

all i am hoping... like REALLY hoping is that you all mighty devs find a way to make the Acrobat prestige of the rogue move forward combat utility, in a way it could compete with the other 2 prestiges. I mean, if people want to make the highest dps rogue, they make an assasin; if they end up wanting the best trapsmith along with ranged dps they go mechanic. But so far, the only reason to pick the acrobat is pure flavor... and fight many mariliths so they feel better about their knockdown inmunity.

My ideas about the Acrobat goes from enhancement lines boosting AC based on rogue levels and tumble score, increased jump cap when weilding staves; an "abundant-step-like" ability, like a wide arch jump-charge, something like what Morah used to do in the marketplace acording to certain ring (http://ddowiki.com/page/Morah's_Band), which could be even something related to death from above (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acrobat_(3.5e_Class)). And im also considering Supreme evasion, but NOT as overpowered as it shows in that page (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acrobat_(3.5e_Class)), im thinking in what we already have but better: Improved evasion reduces the damage of a failed reflex save by half, while superior evasion could make the character suffer 1/4 of the damage when he fails a reflex save... or you can ignore all that and just remove the automatic fail on rolling a 1 on anything reflex save related, for characters with that feat.

Im just really hoping you find a way to make acrobats something a lil bit better, to make a few players a bit more happy about not being the best dps...

PS: what about a trip "clickie" granted by the prestige, like monks get their stunning fist feat? an Unbalancing strike with such precision and acuracy that makes enemies lay prone and with a DC based on the character's rogue levels + dex mod and or half of tumble score usable ONLY while weilding a staff ... im such a dreamer... <3 peace all

[ka0t1c1sm]

yes dual SS or LS/SS drow were the norm for those drow that failed to live up to the preferred classes of their race, ie wizzy for males and clerics for females. does it make sense to base the racial pre for DDO drow on the last option cannon fodder that melee drow are?

Why not? Those fodder also outnumbered the male wizards and female clerics substantially. As a race, any old Drow can be a Tempest. But only those that can live up to their preferred class, could access Arcane/Divine PrE's.

A solid argument can be made for Assassin over Tempest, but otherwise it makes sense to me.

[Gorbadoc]

Why not? As a race, any old Drow can be a Tempest. But only those that can live up to their preferred class, could access Arcane/Divine PrE's.

A solid argument can be made for Assassin over Tempest, but otherwise it makes sense to me.

I think the term is "favored class", and it's not what it sounds like. Here's a short quiz. Note that a dwarf's favored class is fighter, while an elf's favored class is wizard. Which of the following characters benefits most from the favored class rules?
Elf pure fighter
Dwarf pure fighter
Dwarf pure wizard

Okay, pencils down. If you answered, "d. All three get exactly ZERO benefit from the favored class rules," you're correct!

Yes, it's true. For some inscrutable reason, "Favored Class" in PnP means that it's easier to splash into or out of that class, but it doesn't help you if you stay pure. If you think that's wacky, take heart! The first edition rules were even more incomprehensible.

[moonprophet]

..this system is a regression to the ORIGINAL enhancement system which was changed because we all agreed it sucked. The current system allows for maximum flexibility and original character customization. Many (read ALL) of the people I played with 1-5 years ago have allready left the game. This change will drive even more players away. If you want to design WoW, go do it. Please leave our game alone.

[Aesop]

Goblins. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07112005/)

I hate you...

Do you realize that I didn't get to bed until 4am because I had to catch up reading this one...

My Significant Other had to yell at me to go to sleep.

Aesop

[Aesop]

..this system is a regression to the ORIGINAL enhancement system which was changed because we all agreed it sucked. The current system allows for maximum flexibility and original character customization. Many (read ALL) of the people I played with 1-5 years ago have allready left the game. This change will drive even more players away. If you want to design WoW, go do it. Please leave our game alone.

... what the heck are you talking about?

The "original" system only allowed 4 Enhancements at any one time... This is talking about large flowing trees with multiple branches within. It doesn't even resemble the original Enhancement System.


Aesop

[toapat]

... what the heck are you talking about?

The "original" system only allowed 4 Enhancements at any one time... This is talking about large flowing trees with multiple branches within. It doesn't even resemble the original Enhancement System.


Aesop

he is looking at it as a purely "WoW did it, so it must be good".

You know whats going away in WoW? tallent trees.

the problem with Tallent trees in WoW is that they are impossible to balance, and keep a variety among classes. here, in theory (although this isnt entirely true, GTWF vs GTHF is a pretty good example) you can make anything work. my first capped character was a DW paladin, why? because i have wanted to make a DW pally for years. Expanding the trees and correcting imbalances, such as ranger being only marginally more valuable in combat then a bard, or a paladin being nigh worthless for non-threat output roles, are things that need to be addressed, and things that a tallent tree system can address

[quickgrif]

..this system is a regression to the ORIGINAL enhancement system which was changed because we all agreed it sucked. The current system allows for maximum flexibility and original character customization. Many (read ALL) of the people I played with 1-5 years ago have allready left the game. This change will drive even more players away. If you want to design WoW, go do it. Please leave our game alone.



First off based on what little we do know of the new system it is no where limited like the old system.

Second the current enhancement system is a version of the tree like many games use such as WOW so I do not see your point.

In truth the enhancement system needed to be cleaned up. Now the key is how it is done and how it will pan out. I for one will look forward to testing the new system out.

[HatsuharuZ]

For me, one of the most annoying things about having a wizard, is that when you have to change your spells to suit a quest, you are, more often than not, unable to change the elemental damage enhancements. It would be nice to be able to "trade" a point put into, say, the force amp line, in order to get that point into the acid amp line, or vice versa, without having to reset the entire enhancement tree.

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I imagine that it will be very hard to make enhancement trees for casters. Good luck, Devs!

[Talias006]

I prefer to think of the talent trees more akin to Diablo than WoW.
You know, where they came up with the ideas for WoW talent trees... :rolleyes: :D

[Failedlegend]

I'd like to see a variable selection (similar to savant) for each race that incorporates variouse sub-races a la Aeranel and Varenel (I know I probably butchered that spelling) for example Dwarves could choose Shield Dwarf, Gold Dwarf, Duergar,etc. each bringing a unique set of enhancements alongside the standard racial enhancements.

[Silverleafeon]

It will be interesting to see how epic levels are actually done though. I also have some concerns about just how powerful we'll get by the time we hit level 25. In PnP epic levels tend to get stupid powerful. And a few years ago the devs said that a DDO character by level 10 is the equivalent in power to a level 20 character due to the enhancement system.

So just how overpowered with the epic enhancements make us?Good point.

The main problem I had as a high level DM in 3rd edition was the textbook monsters getting trashed by characters greatly increased by the many optional books. But in DDO the developers have already adjusted the monsters due to seeing prime characters tackle them everyday.

With the Lord of the Blades being a tough dude, it would be nice to have a bit more power to take him on.
Epics are still a challenge atm.
Epic raids are still a challenge atm.

More Loth on the way...wondering how powerful she will be?

Agreed, elite reavers raid with level 25 characters might be a bit easier than reavers raid with level 20 characters.
(Maybe we will see epic gianthold someday?)

[toapat]

I prefer to think of the talent trees more akin to Diablo than WoW.
You know, where they came up with the ideas for WoW talent trees... :rolleyes: :D

Although D2 was the first Blizzard game with tallent trees, and they were much better built trees then ever were in WoW, the system itself was much better done for World of Warcraft (this is pre cataclysm of course). the problem no matter what, will be that tallent trees take significant research, careful development, and a delicate touch to balance. The issues of balancing the tallent trees can also be massive ones like that which paladin suffer, because paladin is a class built for campaigns where a +1 cold Iron Longsword is an artifact, but are in one where magic items rain from the sky.

[Ebergar]

Hello,

I would like to ask about Cleric enhancements in this new system.
Are there any details of that revealed? :D

[airavon]

I agree with FL that each Race should have their own racial PrE. I also like the general tab idea. We need to see Elves get a buff too. They're arguably the weakest race in the game right now. Before Helf they at least had a spot with AA for those builds, but all those builds are Helf now. So a Bladesinger racial PrE that was actually GOOD and allowed you to make a decent arcane-melee gish would make people play Elves more. My idea for Bladesinger PrE:

Bladesinger I
25% chance for complete evasion of an attack, separate from Blur, Displacement, and Wraith Form. (So if you had Displacement, Wraith Form, and Bladesinger I, then you'd have two 25% chances to avoid, then a 50% chance)
-20% ASF
BladeSong style stance I: You gain a +2 Attack and damage bonus when wielding a Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar or shortsword, with 5% Doublestrike Proc. Also +2 AC. Woudn't be able to be on with Power Attack, but would be fine with Defensive Fighting.

Bladesinger II
40% chance for complete evasion.
-35% ASF
Bladesong Style stance II: You gain a +4 bonus to attack and damage and AC when wielding the above weapons. 15% doublestrike Proc. Evasion.

Bladesinger III
50% chance for complete evasion.
No ASF
Bladesong Style stance III: You gain a +6 bonus to attack, damage, and AC while wielding the above weapons. Doublestrike Proc increases to 25%, Improved Evasion.

[Gorbadoc]

Hello,

I would like to ask about Cleric enhancements in this new system.
Are there any details of that revealed? :D

You and me both.

Unless I missed a dev post, the details of trees have been sparse(we've received partial info on what Ranger enhancements might look like, subject to change) to none (I don't remember any details about cleric enhancements, other than vague statements that, yes, it's problematic to try to shove generic caster enhancements into one PrE over another).

I'm glad you asked, though: It's good that the devs see that we do still care what happens to caster enhancements.

[decease]

i wish they reduce the requirement of class level from 6,12,18 to 4,12,16.. for now it is not very wise to multi class.. hopefully something can be changed..

[Talias006]

If they do anything to enhance the viability of Multi-Classes with differing Prestige's, it shouldn't be to lower the levels to acquire IMO.
Perhaps to adjust the AP point requirement a bit, but the level(s) needed right now are good.
And as it stands, we've not seen anything regarding what the prestige abilities for points on the trees at different AP totals will be.

I am very curious to what changes have been made that they can tell us without spoiling the entire process when it's unveiled to either Mourn or Lam.

[Scraap]

By the by: How are Spell pen lines being treated under the new system?

Right now, we've a set that doesn't require a feat, so a TRed enough splash can bypass the feat bit and still hit the same number as a first life (Actually one of my goals at present, though on-hold, since I've already been smacked once going from lichform at 12 to the <self-censored> that is vampire instead from the last tweak).

Then there's the elven arcanum for +4, and both clerical and wizard at +3 a pop, so that's a 10 point swing if they were all kept as-is, just from enhancements for a 19/1, 14 counting feats.

Will content be rebalanced based on maxes, minimums, or averages there, or will we be looking at another corner-case where the new rule-set needs to be... massaged to allow for actual flexibility?

[Vargouille]

i wish they reduce the requirement of class level from 6,12,18 to 4,12,16.. for now it is not very wise to multi class.. hopefully something can be changed..

Interesting idea.

[Scraap]

Interesting idea.

Elaborate. Thusfar, the notion presented has been breakpoints at 3/6/9/12/15/18/20, so 11/9s would get 9 unlocks aside from race. That mean you might look at divisible by 2 instead for actual split-classes?

edited for the 3 gate. ah ken math. rly.

[Monkey-Boy]

Interesting idea.

How soon before we'll see this on Lamania?

[Silverleafeon]

Interesting idea.

Nods solemnly and tries to look wise...

[RTN]

Interesting idea.

Disagree. There are a ton of 18/2 and 12/6/2 builds and characters out there. Dropping class requirements to 4/12/16 (unless there is a top tier at 20 or a decent boost to most capstones) will unbalance multiclass and pure. When multiclassers complain about not being powerful enough, they typically mean they aren't the clear top choice. Right now, there are benefits and drawbacks to pure vs multiclass. That's how it should be. Making it 4/12/16 will swing the benefits much more in the favor of multiclass.

[Failedlegend]

i wish they reduce the requirement of class level from 6,12,18 to 4,12,16.. for now it is not very wise to multi class.. hopefully something can be changed..


Interesting idea.

I think that while its not necessarily a bad idea it's likely the wrong direction. Now removing the level gating on the other hand is a terrible idea as much as it SEEMS like a good idea for multiclassers it actually favor 18/1/1 builds and discourages single-classes and deeper multi-classes.

I'd like to know if we should keep giving you ideas or if you only want us to comment on your ideas because ideas like the "General" tab, The Loosening of Tree limits, The Favored Class System (reduction of level gating based on race to reflect favored class),the possibility of Hybrid PrEs,etc. seem to be either completley ignored or we get "Ïnteresting Idea" than the next dev post about it is something similar in "theme" but completely different in execution.

For example instead of loosening the tree limit (but keeping the 3 PrE limit) and adding a general tab so multiclassers aren't penalized you suggested removing any level gating entirely (except for the "free bonuses") which will really benefit 18/1/1 builds and give far less reason to multiclass more than that as well as gives less reason to go pure. PLease tell me I'm wrong and your just not ready to comment on them and crazy ideas like removing the level gating is just you bouncing ideas off of us and not "sneak peeks" to what is actually going to happen

[Scraap]

As much as this guy is clearly biased it is a bad idea. So is removing the level gating.

Please tell us WHY you are cleary ignoring the "General" tab and Loosening of Tree limits. I may be completely wrong but it seems every time we suggest something that catches your attention we get "Ïnteresting Idea" than the next dev post is something similar in "theme" but completely different in execution...for example instead of loosening the tree limit and adding a general tab so multiclassers arn't penalized you suggested removing any level gating entirely which will really benefit 18/1/1 builds and give far less reason to multiclass more than that as well as gives less reason to go pure.

^this. Seems most suggestions are being taken too far in the other direction. If it's suggested as a middle ground, it's for a reason. Usually many reasons.

[GoldyGopher]

Interesting idea.

I gotta say that sounds like a bad idea, not an interesting idea.

Multi-class characters get lots of benefits from the second and third class that they choose. Making it easier to get higher level funcationality (Monk 4 vs 2, Pally 3 vs. Pally 2) in multiclass builds swings the pendilum way back to the multi-class builds.

[Monkey-Boy]

I gotta say that sounds like a bad idea, not an interesting idea.

Multi-class characters get lots of benefits from the second and third class that they choose. Making it easier to get higher level funcationality (Monk 4 vs 2, Pally 3 vs. Pally 2) in multiclass builds swings the pendilum way back to the multi-class builds.

From what we know but we haven't seen the full-monty yet. How does this all interact with Epic levels and all that fun stuff?

[Cyr]

I am reading alot of commentary about this reduction in class level requirements about deep splashes being uber because of it.

That is complete hogwash as long as the 3 tree limit is kept. That limit will already be an incredibly powerful incentive to not do deep multiclass builds that it is preposterous to think that access to another tier of lower level enhancements is going to make much difference at all.

The name of the game in the new enhancement system will be getting as many PrE tiers as possible on the same build that synergize well together.

Let's take a 6/6/8 melee build. Okay, they can get tier one of one thing, tier one of another thing, and full on their racial for 5 tiers total...but they then can not purchase any enhancements at all from other trees including any at all from one of their classes (racial took that one up). That is better then what you can do currently, but look at the other case...

18/2 Splash melee build. They can take two tier 3 PrE's and one tier 2 PrE best case (in reality they will probably go 2 tier 3 and on tier 1 with some racial points spent). So 7-8 Tiers including two full PrE's to the 5 tiers with one full PrE elsewhere.

Why are the PrE tiers the important criteria? The answer is simple, because they are free AP with lots of power behind them. Unlike the current system where they have lots of AP cost to both qualify (which are largely useless junk...expanded choices without strict choice requirements in the new system means a ton more bang for your pre-req cost) and to purchase (free after meeting the pre-req costs of levels and AP spent in tree in new system).

[kingfisher]

Please tell us WHY you are cleary ignoring the "General" tab and Loosening of Tree limits.

i find it funny that this basic question about the sudden need for a 3 tree limit has been asked at least a hundred times in this thread withuot a single response as to why. do the devs not understand the question? or maybe they dont understand why its a big deal? this 3 tree limit is a break from how DDO has been for its entire life. Char gen options has always been one of the best things about DDO, and its one of the most striking differeneces between DDO and other MMO's. how can you not answer this question, beyond the whole 'make it easier for new players' buyll**** that is.

enough with the 'hmmmm' and 'interesting idea' and 'still reading!' posts from the devs, come on. in the immortal words of wyatt earp - if you have come to a fight, get busy fighting or get the hell outta the way.

[EatSmart]

Out of interest, what is going to happen to characters who's racial PRE is also their class PRE? Is it going to become "gimp" to chose elf as your race if you're playing pure ranger due to the loss of a 4th PRE option? Is there going to be a reward mechanism for the natural synergy, such as earlier tier unlocks?

[Scraap]

I am reading alot of commentary about this reduction in class level requirements about deep splashes being uber because of it.

That is complete hogwash as long as the 3 tree limit is kept. That limit will already be an incredibly powerful incentive to not do deep multiclass builds that it is preposterous to think that access to another tier of lower level enhancements is going to make much difference at all.

The name of the game in the new enhancement system will be getting as many PrE tiers as possible on the same build that synergize well together.

Let's take a 6/6/8 melee build. Okay, they can get tier one of one thing, tier one of another thing, and full on their racial for 5 tiers total...but they then can not purchase any enhancements at all from other trees including any at all from one of their classes (racial took that one up). That is better then what you can do currently, but look at the other case...

18/2 Splash melee build. They can take two tier 3 PrE's and one tier 2 PrE best case (in reality they will probably go 2 tier 3 and on tier 1 with some racial points spent). So 7-8 Tiers including two full PrE's to the 5 tiers with one full PrE elsewhere.

Why are the PrE tiers the important criteria? The answer is simple, because they are free AP with lots of power behind them. Unlike the current system where they have lots of AP cost to both qualify (which are largely useless junk...expanded choices without strict choice requirements in the new system means a ton more bang for your pre-req cost) and to purchase (free after meeting the pre-req costs of levels and AP spent in tree in new system).

Thing is, they haven't suggested reducing requirements so that the more you sacrifice the more you get aside from the unlocks. They've suggested entirely the opposite, in fact. That suggests they'll pretty much have to put heavy, heavy weight on those unlocks compared to the totality of the rest of what is in trees to make picking up a different one a game-play impacting choice.

Could be good for creating a spectrum of level gates, could be bad, but it really does strike me as ending up a lot more rigid than it needs to be if most meaningful choices end up revolving purely around those unlocks, which is essentially what we've already got right now in a truncated 3-tier form.

[Missing_Minds]

Interesting idea.

Well, they are enhancements and not classes. PrCs about the earliest you could enter into them was lvl 5, but on average lvl 7 depending on requirements.

So it makes sense that they can start to show "aspects of" as it were due to training, esp with the additional things you guys seem to be adding in.

[Cyr]

Thing is, they haven't suggested reducing requirements so that the more you sacrifice the more you get aside from the unlocks. They've suggested entirely the opposite, in fact. That suggests they'll pretty much have to put heavy, heavy weight on those unlocks compared to the totality of the rest of what is in trees to make picking up a different one a game-play impacting choice.

Could be good for creating a spectrum of level gates, could be bad, but it really does strike me as ending up a lot more rigid than it needs to be if most meaningful choices end up revolving purely around those unlocks, which is essentially what we've already got right now in a truncated 3-tier form.

Tempest is the example PrE I am looking at along with lots of developer comments about reducing or outright eliminating reqs on PrE's except for 6 levels/tier and 10 AP spent in tree/tier. The description given for individual enhancements requiring specific stuff was that it would be used sparingly. That to me does not read like they are increasing the requirements.

If you could point me to where you are getting this idea from it would be helpful, particularly if I missed a developer comment that reversed the general theme of their comments (which is not unheard of).

[Failedlegend]

How does this all interact with Epic levels and all that fun stuff?

It's already been said that it's an entirely different system and will not effect heroic play,classes,enhancements, etc. at all so is irrelevant in this thread

[HatsuharuZ]

Why not just have one tree per class? It would simplify things, especially for caster classes. Then the 3 tree limit (not including racial tree) would make sense, since you can only have levels in up to 3 classes. If that were the case, then all the devs would have left to do is decide the requirements for the PrEs and capstones.

[Scraap]

Tempest is the example PrE I am looking at along with lots of developer comments about reducing or outright eliminating reqs on PrE's except for 6 levels/tier and 10 AP spent in tree/tier. The description given for individual enhancements requiring specific stuff was that it would be used sparingly. That to me does not read like they are increasing the requirements.

If you could point me to where you are getting this idea from it would be helpful, particularly if I missed a developer comment that reversed the general theme of their comments (which is not unheard of).


Looking at the two latest proposed unlock mechanics:


There's two kinds of tiers here. In the large tree of selectable enhancements, the vertical tiers are unlocked by AP, as well as level. Yes, we're considering having those tiers be character level instead of class level. The automatically granted bonus enhancements, also unlocked by total AP spent in the tree, would remain locked by class level instead of character level, which might include things such as the increased chance to make an off-hand attack with Tempest. Exactly which bits of existing or new PREs end up as selectable vs. auto-granted may vary on a case by case basis, but it's not necessarily the same setup that exists now. That's the prominent option we're exploring, though we're not committed to it yet, subject to change yadda yadda.

Unlocking each tree itself would still require at least one class level.

Ends up being a hybrid of 2 extremes, with very little middle-ground, and strongly suggests not going too far beyond a 1-2 splash unless, again, they put heavy emphasis on the level-gated unlocks vs the rest.

That clearer in terms of explaining the concern with halo effects at least?

[Failedlegend]

Out of interest, what is going to happen to characters who's racial PRE is also their class PRE? Is it going to become "gimp" to chose elf as your race if you're playing pure ranger due to the loss of a 4th PRE option? Is there going to be a reward mechanism for the natural synergy, such as earlier tier unlocks?

As much as i hate the racial PrEs just being carbion copies it would be funny if a pure Drow Ranger could be a Tempest3/Tempest3 :P

Seriosuly though I'd rather have NO racial PrEs than the copies of class pres. Something like these

Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Make it complement DoS & SD)
Halfing: Talentia Rider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly (Yeah I know this sort of breaks my no Carbon Copy rule but it fits)


Sidenote: I think Ranger should lose AA it doesn't fit the class at all and should be replaced by the "Beastmaster" PrE which focuses on Animal Companions (similar to Arty dog), tracking skills (ie. can see enemies on minimap), terrain mastery (gets a different bonus based on terrain type or works similar to Monk "ways" and you get a bonus based on the terrain you choose) than give DWS a much needed boost to make up for the loss of AA.

Sidenote2: The Arty Dog and all future companions should be able to be different models,breeds,species,etc. (should be a cosmetic change only)even if its DDO store only (sorry I know this is off-topic)


Why not just have one tree per class? It would simplify things, especially for caster classes. Then the 3 tree limit (not including racial tree) would make sense, since you can only have levels in up to 3 classes. If that were the case, then all the devs would have left to do is decide the requirements for the PrEs and capstones.

I'd be fine with 1 EXTRA tree per class (although I see no reason to limit the trees as long as you limit it to 3 PrE Bonuses)...but not 1 tree per class...that would limit single-classes just as much as 3 Trees will limit multi-classes

[Scraap]

As much as i hate the racial PrEs just being carbion copies it would be funny if a pure Drow Ranger could be a Tempest3/Tempest3 :P

Seriosuly though I'd rather have NO racial PrEs than the copies of class pres

http://v.cdn.nuklearpower.com/comics/8-bit-theater/090127.png

For myself, I'd go for racial generals, if they were to do a generals tab. It'd seem to fit more with the notion of a favored class, since I always read that as a cultural thing that makes it easier to retain lessons from your childhood.

[Glenalth]

Out of interest, what is going to happen to characters who's racial PRE is also their class PRE? Is it going to become "gimp" to chose elf as your race if you're playing pure ranger due to the loss of a 4th PRE option? Is there going to be a reward mechanism for the natural synergy, such as earlier tier unlocks?

I believe there is a post somewhat covering this buried somewhere in this thread.

Basic concept, if I'm remembering correctly, is that the racial PrEs will require an AP expenditure to be unlocked. So if you've already got it as a class PrE you will be saving points.

[Yaga_Nub]

I might have missed something, somewhere, in this huge, unwieldy thread but are there going to be any casting PrEs as racial PrEs?

It seems that having a combat and a magic PrE option for each race would be in order. .... or does it?

[Cyr]

Looking at the two latest proposed unlock mechanics:



Ends up being a hybrid of 2 extremes, with very little middle-ground, and strongly suggests not going too far beyond a 1-2 splash unless, again, they put heavy emphasis on the level-gated unlocks vs the rest.

That clearer in terms of explaining the concern with halo effects at least?

Okay, I guess I was misunderstanding your post then. The example you cited was reduced requirements (as in non-class level over class level for the vertical part of the tree).

I agree that the current design model does seem to strongly encourage 18/2, 19/1, 18/1/1, and 20 builds over others.

The vertical relaxation of restrictions from class levels is interesting, but not really that useful when you consider you will still need total AP spent in that tree to get it and unless you are getting a free PrE benefit for that the advantage still lies heavily with the 18/2 or pure builds.

I think that in practical terms this will probably only really matter for tier 2-4 (verticaly speaking in a PrE tree) unlocks because it is unlikely that most will spend more then 10/15 points in a PrE tree when they can not get the PrE benefit from that tree.

Now if they instead got rid of the vertical AP cost on the trees and only had class level based (or total level based for racial PrE's) AND lifted the three PrE tab limit then I think we would be talking about a more balanced system for all types of builds.

It is fairly confusing talking about these things with the fluid terminology that we are all using, but hopefully that is clear enough.

[Scraap]

I might have missed something, somewhere, in this huge, unwieldy thread but are there going to be any casting PrEs as racial PrEs?

It seems that having a combat and a magic PrE option for each race would be in order. .... or does it?


Unless there's a newer list:


I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

These are still subject to change. (Especially that Human part.)
<snip>

So unless human/helf-dilies truly include "any" when they say any, and aren't implying "any on that list", we're looking at alot more melee capable casters added than caster capable melees added via that route. Kinda a pitty. I could see a paladin with a radiant servant mixed in as thematic, at least, though admittedly problematic to balance.

[Cyr]

I might have missed something, somewhere, in this huge, unwieldy thread but are there going to be any casting PrEs as racial PrEs?


The half elf and human racial PrE's as a first blush were basically a whatever single racial PrE you wanted with a bigger unlock cost then the other races PrE's. Other races looked to be restricted to a single racial PrE.

[Yaga_Nub]

Unless there's a newer list:



So unless human/helf-dilies truly include "any" when they say any, and aren't implying "any on that list", we're looking at alot more melee capable casters added than caster capable melees added via that route.

That's kind of a bummer then. I'd love to see the more magical races (elf, drow) have caster PrE options as well. Maybe Radiant Savant for 1/2lings as well since they get the healing mark.

[kingfisher]

Now if they instead got rid of the vertical AP cost on the trees and only had class level based (or total level based for racial PrE's) AND lifted the three PrE tab limit then I think we would be talking about a more balanced system for all types of builds.


this. basically what we have now upgraded, with more options, restructured points values, new pre's, the precious new ui that is driving this lunacy, etc.

[Failedlegend]

Now if they instead got rid of the vertical AP cost on the trees and only had class level based (or total level based for racial PrE's) AND lifted the three PrE tab limit then I think we would be talking about a more balanced system for all types of builds.


Pretty much this..although I still would like to see Hybrid PrEs and a small bonus based on a races favored class (reducing level gating for said class by 1 lvl would be cool but not to powerful that it alienates other races)

[kingfisher]

That's kind of a bummer then. I'd love to see the more magical races (elf, drow) have caster PrE options as well. Maybe Radiant Savant for 1/2lings as well since they get the healing mark.

havent you heard? drow are no longer inherently magical, their favored classes are no longer casters, lloth is ditching her preistesses, the drow wizard acadamy is closing its doors : all because a certain limp wristed purple eyed whiner came along and re-wrote their entire history, now the strongest drow just wanna be twf scimmy users like uncle driz. WHAT A JOKE.

[Scraap]

Okay, I guess I was misunderstanding your post then. The example you cited was reduced requirements (as in non-class level over class level for the vertical part of the tree).

I agree that the current design model does seem to strongly encourage 18/2, 19/1, 18/1/1, and 20 builds over others.

The vertical relaxation of restrictions from class levels is interesting, but not really that useful when you consider you will still need total AP spent in that tree to get it and unless you are getting a free PrE benefit for that the advantage still lies heavily with the 18/2 or pure builds.

I think that in practical terms this will probably only really matter for tier 2-4 (verticaly speaking in a PrE tree) unlocks because it is unlikely that most will spend more then 10/15 points in a PrE tree when they can not get the PrE benefit from that tree.

Now if they instead got rid of the vertical AP cost on the trees and only had class level based (or total level based for racial PrE's) AND lifted the three PrE tab limit then I think we would be talking about a more balanced system for all types of builds.

It is fairly confusing talking about these things with the fluid terminology that we are all using, but hopefully that is clear enough.

I believe I'd previously suggested something akin to cross-class skills for the big box (and perhaps the outright removal was due to my own miscommunication there, if that's what prompted it, and if my ego was big enough to think I'd made the only suggestion along those lines), where those tier 2-4's non-unlocked aps would run twice the cost if you were below a given class level. Basically, makes it doable, but the price is commensurate with the gain there, and it at least approaches something similar in the core ruleset.

[bhgiant]

Basic concept, if I'm remembering correctly, is that the racial PrEs will require an AP expenditure to be unlocked. So if you've already got it as a class PrE you will be saving points.
That's lame... there needs to be other benefits, otherwise everyone will AP unlock the prestige of their choice as a human and go pure, giving them a capstone and the ability to have any other prestige class in the game (iirc, that's what was said).

I like the idea of a separate similar but complementing prestige for races, but I'd be hard pressed to believe they are going to take the time to develop 8 additional prestiges. My suggestion would be to have an enhancement line in the race tree that could only be accessed by that race if they are the same class as their race prestige. Make it powerful, like the ability for a Hobbit to throw a dagger and basically PWK something from a distance with no needing to bypass SR. Or give the Drow the ability to turn into a Scorrow, giving bonuses to Con, Str, attack speed, and adding poison damage on every hit for X sec/permanently/while in form.

*if this has been suggested before, my apologies, this thread is just too freaking long*

[Glenalth]

As much as i hate the racial PrEs just being carbion copies it would be funny if a pure Drow Ranger could be a Tempest3/Tempest3 :P

Seriosuly though I'd rather have NO racial PrEs than the copies of class pres

This is the only part that seems to me like it could be totally lame if it ends up being duplicates.

I understand that designing a fully unique PrE for each race on top of all the missing ones they're now filling out may take too much time. At the very least, If they're going to be clones, add some flavah filled twists. Make them feel unique and make the class vs racial PrE a real choice instead of just picking the cheaper of the two..

For example, lets say we have a Drow Ranger that wants a Tempest PrE. The Ranger Tempest and Drow Tempest end up around 80% identical. But some of the enhancements would have slightly different functionality.

As a single point purchase on the AP tree...
Ranger Tempest gets +1 damage on crits.
Drow Tempest gets 1d6 poison damage on crits.

For picking up enough points in the tree...
Ranger Tempest gets penalty to-hit reduced by -2 on all weapons.
Drow Tempest gets penalty to-hit reduced by -2 on racial weapons only.

If you have the Lightning Reflexes Feat...
Ranger Tempest gains an additional +2 reflex save vs spells.
Drow Tempest gains Deflect Arrows while wielding two weapons.

For picking up enough points for the capstone...
Ranger Tempest gains 5% doublestrike.
Drow Tempest gains Opportunist (3% doublestrike and 10% fort bypass)

And so on...
So if you happened to be a Drow Ranger you would have to decide on which version of Tempest you wanted instead of just taking whichever one is cheapest of the two copies.

[Monkey-Boy]

. . . this thread is just too freaking long*

Agreed, time we see this on Lamania.

[Yaga_Nub]

This is the only part that seems to me like it could be totally lame if it ends up being duplicates.

I understand that designing a fully unique PrE for each race on top of all the missing ones they're now filling out may take too much time. At the very least, If they're going to be clones, add some flavah filled twists. Make them feel unique and make the class vs racial PrE a real choice instead of just picking the cheaper of the two..

For example, lets say we have a Drow Ranger that wants a Tempest PrE. The Ranger Tempest and Drow Tempest end up around 80% identical. But some of the enhancements would have slightly different functionality.

As a single point purchase on the AP tree...
Ranger Tempest gets +1 damage on crits.
Drow Tempest gets 1d6 poison damage on crits.

For picking up enough points in the tree...
Ranger Tempest gets penalty to-hit reduced by -2 on all weapons.
Drow Tempest gets penalty to-hit reduced by -2 on racial weapons only.

If you have the Lightning Reflexes Feat...
Ranger Tempest gains an additional +2 reflex save vs spells.
Drow Tempest gains Deflect Arrows while wielding two weapons.

For picking up enough points for the capstone...
Ranger Tempest gains 5% doublestrike.
Drow Tempest gains Opportunist (3% doublestrike and 10% fort bypass)

And so on...
So if you happened to be a Drow Ranger you would have to decide on which version of Tempest you wanted instead of just taking whichever one is cheapest of the two copies.

How about a drow ranger getting tempest at a reduced cost if he doesn't take another ranger PrE? Same with a halfling assassin and rogue PrEs or any other race. If my race is already predisposed to that PrE shouldn't it come easier (less points to buy)?

[Rizzia]

And so on...
So if you happened to be a Drow Ranger you would have to decide on which version of Tempest you wanted instead of just taking whichever one is cheapest of the two copies.

The way you put it, you would be penalised for choosing a favored class. I think it'd be better if it you could gain synergy bonuses so that the drow in this example wouldnt have to choose, but gain both for the cost of 1, since it is its "favored" class.

Hopefully there are some racial caster types (elves would be a good one for this), I know people are worried about PM savants..but your not worried about PM Stalwarts?

[Avidus]

...this thread is just too freaking long*

Agreed.

Approaching 4000 posts spread over soon to be 200 pages. If you haven't been following it from the beginning, or even if you have and missed your regular check up on the thread, it is becoming exceedingly difficult to give proper feedback. Saying that it is getting muddled is putting it nicely.

Trying to find out what the Devs are doing, liking, ignoring or changing and only getting posts with 'Interesting Idea' and 'Hmmm' and 'still reading' isn't really helping us give useful feedback.

With that said I think it would benefit everyone involved if this thread was closed, and a new thread entitled Let's Talk: Enhancements the Sequel was created. With the first post being a summary of 'what's going on'.

That way would could see what the Devs have so far, why they liked certain ideas, why they didn't like other ideas, see some new mocked up screen shots and get a sense of where we are in this redesign so that we can give relevant feedback.

[Failedlegend]

I've got to say most updates see a few cool things and it will be nice when it comes and most of the "hot button"changes people explode about haven't really bothered me as i ussually just adjust.

This "ëxpansion" though has me being insanely excited while simultaneously feeling intense dread.


I think it would benefit everyone involved if this thread was closed, and a new thread entitled Let's Talk: Enhancements the Sequel was created. With the first post being a summary of 'what's going on'.

That way would could see what the Devs have so far, why they liked certain ideas, why they didn't like other ideas, see some new mocked up screen shots and get a sense of where we are in this redesign so that we can give relevant feedback.

Yeah I definately think a restart with an overall update is needed...or at LEAST the first post in this thread should be updated....although a new thread is definatly preferable.

[waterboytkd]

Now if they instead got rid of the vertical AP cost on the trees and only had class level based (or total level based for racial PrE's) AND lifted the three PrE tab limit then I think we would be talking about a more balanced system for all types of builds.

How would you deal with stacking issues? One of the things the devs said very early in this thread is they want to remove any weird stacking rules, and just make it so everything stacks. If you have unlimited tree access, how do you deal with that? Especially considering it looks like every tree will have (at least) 2 ability score increasing enhancements. What about toughness enhancements?

You could say "then don't let them stack", but that would lead to unintuitive non-stacking issues again. It's easy to say "Kensai Strength and Ravagen Strength don't stack" but how easy is it to say "Kensai Chosen Weapon Attack Bonus and Assassin Knife Attack Bonus don't stack"? Non-stacking is most likely going to lead to either a blanket effect that actually restricts some build possibilities (like a dagger using Kensai Assassin), or it's going to be riddled with exceptions, which is the exact opposite of the intent.

[HatsuharuZ]

havent you heard? drow are no longer inherently magical, their favored classes are no longer casters, lloth is ditching her preistesses, the drow wizard acadamy is closing its doors : all because a certain limp wristed purple eyed whiner came along and re-wrote their entire history, now the strongest drow just wanna be twf scimmy users like uncle driz. WHAT A JOKE.

I thought the favored classes being wizard for male and cleric for female was only in the Forgotten Realms setting? PC drow in DDO are Eberron drow.

[Cyr]

How would you deal with stacking issues? One of the things the devs said very early in this thread is they want to remove any weird stacking rules, and just make it so everything stacks. If you have unlimited tree access, how do you deal with that? Especially considering it looks like every tree will have (at least) 2 ability score increasing enhancements. What about toughness enhancements?

You could say "then don't let them stack", but that would lead to unintuitive non-stacking issues again. It's easy to say "Kensai Strength and Ravagen Strength don't stack" but how easy is it to say "Kensai Chosen Weapon Attack Bonus and Assassin Knife Attack Bonus don't stack"? Non-stacking is most likely going to lead to either a blanket effect that actually restricts some build possibilities (like a dagger using Kensai Assassin), or it's going to be riddled with exceptions, which is the exact opposite of the intent.

I have outlined already in thread how this sort of stacking could be handled, but this thread is so massive that it is buried somewhere in it.

Basically like enhancements WOULD stack, BUT the amont of tiers still available to purchase would reduce on all trees when you purchased it from one. Tooltips would state which enhancements are 'overlapping' or 'count as the same enhancement'.

So basically you would puchase "Str Bonus: Class Based" from the Kensai tree which has a tooltip saying 0/3 before purchase and 1/3 after purchase. You would then look at the SD tree and see "Str Bonus: Class Based" which had a 0/3 listed would now list 0/2. The points spent on that enhancement would count towards the kensai tree since you bought it from that tree. Later you might buy the next step from the SD tree.

The assumption here is that tiers will have flat progressions based upon the indications given by the develops, but if some retain an increasing cost then the tiers purchased later would cost more points and count towards more points on the appropriate tree they are purchased from...

For example, let's say that str bonus costs 2/4/6 AP based upon the tier purchased. You would then have two points spent in the kensai tree for the first tier you purchased and if you bought the second tier from the SD tree you would have 4 points purchased in that tree.

As for Kensai Weapon attack bonus and a proposed assasin knife attack bonus...let them stack. Really specific weapon choice bonuses will presumably be limited in application to one specific PrE tree or be part of the kensai tree. That is unlike something like 'str bonus' which would presumably be in alot of PrE trees.

[waterboytkd]

I think that while its not necessarily a bad idea it's likely the wrong direction. Now removing the level gating on the other hand is a terrible idea as much as it SEEMS like a good idea for multiclassers it actually favor 18/1/1 builds and discourages single-classes and deeper multi-classes.

I'd just like to comment on the idea of 18/1/1 making out like bandits without class level gating, because the relaxing of class level gating for Tree Tiers and Enhancement Tiers was something I championed a long ways back in this thread.

In order for an 18/1/1 to really take "advantage" of no class level gating, it would have to take at least 1 tree from each of its two splashes. Let's consider an example: the split is 18 ranger/1 rogue/1 monk (your classic exploiter build). If they took Tempest (ranger), Assassin (rogue), and Ninja Spy (monk), it would be possible for them to end up with a total of 6 PrE Bonus Enhancements, as they could only get them from Tempest.

Consider that against a single-class Ranger 20. They could get up to 13 PrE Bonuses (6 + capstone from, say, Tempest, 6 from Deepwood Sniper). Or compare that to a an 18 ranger/1 rogue/1 monk who took Tempest, Deepwood Sniper, and Assassin--this build could get 12 PrE Bonuses (6 from Tempest, 6 from Deepwood Sniper).

And, of course, there's AP limits. If you go for the level 18 PrE Bonuses in two trees, that's A LOT of your AP. If you only go for one, you have a lot more AP to spend how you please (which seems to benefit splashes). But this second notion is just as good for deep multis as splash multis, if not better, because a deep multi can pick up PrE Bonuses from his low to medium dedication to a tree. And it's the same for single-classes--if they only go for broke in one tree, they get quite a few points to pick the best enhancements out of their other two trees, and that might actually get them PrE Bonuses while they're at it.

This would only benefit 18/1/1 builds over other builds if the PrE Bonuses are meh. If the PrE Bonuses are really stong, then taking a tree from a splash class is a trade with serious drawbacks, especially if you do it for two (or more) of your trees. Even a 12/6/2 build (or any of the new splits, if the PrE Bonus breaks are at 3/6/9/12/15/18) has some considering to do with its trees. Do you take a tree in the 6 or 2 class, knowing you get less or no PrE Bonuses? Say you had a 12 Fighter/6 Ranger/2 Monk dps build. You want Kensai and Tempest, but what do you take for your third tree? A monk tree?

Truthfully, this no level gating for Tree Tiers and Enhancement Tiers lives or dies by the potency of the PrE Bonuses, just like the whole multi-class vs single-class thing (at least for non-monk melees) lives or dies by the potency of the capstones.

[Failedlegend]

Stuff

So basically what your saying is no level gating can have 2 outcomes

1 - Non-PrE enhancements are so powerful its worth splashing 1 level & losing a Tree/PrE to get them in which case removing the level gating is a bad idea

2 - Non-PrE enhancements are NOT powerful enough to be worth splashing 1 level & losing a Tree/PrE to get access to them in which cause the removal of level gating is mostly pointless

So it will either be a bad thing or make no difference...yeah I'm still in the it's a dumb idea camp.

Also it seems you accidentely made a good case for why the 3 Tree limit is bad.

The only two limiting factors should be Level Gating (which can be reduced by 1 or 2 if its your favored class) and Availible AP.

[Aesop]

The only two limiting factors should be Level Gating (which can be reduced by 1 or 2 if its your favored class) and Availible AP.

I could see Favored Class enhancements being available for MC characters to effectively gain further access to certain class enhancements (PrEs and the like)

ie Elf is FC Wizard
an Elven Wizard 12/ Fighter 8 would count as wizard 14 fighter 8 for purposes of Enhancements available.

Additionally an Elven Favored Class Enhancement could increase the level by 1 per tier of the enhancement.

Of course this would only work with MC builds to allow more Enhancement flexibility and not to allow faster Enhancement acquisition.

Other Enhancements would be available to further the Pure Favored Class (similar to the Elven Arcanum etc lines.

I'd say you'd have to actually splash a level of the class to actually open those benefits of the MC lines however. No picking up fighter haste 1 without being a fighter.

Humans and Half-elves may not have an initial FC but would be able to pick up an enhancement line for a class they have.

Aesop

[Chai]

How would you deal with stacking issues? One of the things the devs said very early in this thread is they want to remove any weird stacking rules, and just make it so everything stacks. If you have unlimited tree access, how do you deal with that? Especially considering it looks like every tree will have (at least) 2 ability score increasing enhancements. What about toughness enhancements?

You could say "then don't let them stack", but that would lead to unintuitive non-stacking issues again. It's easy to say "Kensai Strength and Ravagen Strength don't stack" but how easy is it to say "Kensai Chosen Weapon Attack Bonus and Assassin Knife Attack Bonus don't stack"? Non-stacking is most likely going to lead to either a blanket effect that actually restricts some build possibilities (like a dagger using Kensai Assassin), or it's going to be riddled with exceptions, which is the exact opposite of the intent.

If people are going to stack up all the str or all the dex from an entire class they have to pay points to do so. The fact that you only have X points to spend is already a balancing factor. If you do that, you are forfeiting something else in trade for a few points of a specific stat.

The other way to do it is to have a generic class tree that has all of the stat and skill based stuff, so that all three class trees dont have those. Someone could be rogue and ranger and stack dex, but cant just do it from all 3 rogue trees. This also eliminates casters from being able to multi-stack int without multiclassing in order to do so.

[MissMoogle]

i wish they reduce the requirement of class level from 6,12,18 to 4,12,16.. for now it is not very wise to multi class.. hopefully something can be changed..


Interesting idea.

^ this

[Failedlegend]

If people are going to stack up all the str or all the dex from an entire class they have to pay points to do so. The fact that you only have X points to spend is already a balancing factor. If you do that, you are forfeiting something else in trade for a few points of a specific stat.

The other way to do it is to have a generic class tree that has all of the stat and skill based stuff, so that all three class trees dont have those. Someone could be rogue and ranger and stack dex, but cant just do it from all 3 rogue trees. This also eliminates casters from being able to multi-stack int without multiclassing in order to do so.

I dunno I think it would make more sense to give stats the same treatment as skills.

Ie. Instead of Barb StrI/II/III, Fighter StrI/II/III,etc. change it to Mighty Strength I/II/II...add it to the genral tab with the pre-req being the relevant level in one of the associated Classes or Races (Refering to Racial PrEs...Racial Str, Dex,etc. would still be in the racial tab).

Same thing should be applied with monk stances, favored enemy, spell damage lines, skill bumps, etc. than only things SPECIFIC to the PrEs would be in the PrE trees...about 60 AP per tree and they would be golden (also remove tree limit of course) If needed they could even have the general tab use a different points system so you don't have to worry about "siphoning" the points spent into the PrEs somehow.

Sidebnote: Rename Action points to Augmentation Points...makes much more sense :P

[WurmBurned]

I haven’t been keeping up with every post in this thread, but I remember it being mentioned earlier that improved fortification was being turned into an enhancement line. I’ve spent a lot of time playing a melee focused warforged and would prefer to see the new line and healers friend re-worked to look something like this:


Warforged Juggernaut

tier-1 positive energy healing is 10% less effective, gain an extra15% fortification, and repair spells are 10% more effective.

tier-2 healing spells are 20% less effective, gain an extra 35% fortification, and repair spells are 25% more effective

tier-3 healing spells are 35% less effective, gain an extra 55% fortification, and repair spells are 45% more effective

tier-4 immune to healing spells, gain an extra 75% fortification, and repair spells are now 80% more effective.


Reforged Self

tier-1 resistance to positive energy healing spells is decreased by 10%, lose 5% fortification.

tier-2 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 20%, lose 10% fornication, repair spells are 10% less effective.

tier-3 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 30%, lose 15% fortification, repair spells are 30% less effective.

tier-4 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 40%, repair spells are 50% less effective.

The idea is that these would cost 1 AP per tier and warforged could reach 100% base healing when wearing a blood docent in exchange for losing their fortification bonus.

[Logic]

With the new racial/class enhancement lines if you ask the questions...
-what is the best melee race/class combo
-what is the best arcane race/class combo
-what is the best divine race/class combo... and so on

and if there are obvious answers to any of these questions then the devs will have failed.

There's a lot of crazy builds, diversity, and tradeoffs in DDO right now and they need to keep it that way (well with the exception of arcane... 20 PM human/drow wiz anybody?).

[Failedlegend]

I haven’t been keeping up with every post in this thread, but I remember it being mentioned earlier that improved fortification was being turned into an enhancement line. I’ve spent a lot of time playing a melee focused warforged and would prefer to see the new line and healers friend re-worked to look something like this:


Warforged Juggernaut

tier-1 positive energy healing is 10% less effective, gain an extra15% fortification, and repair spells are 10% more effective.

tier-2 healing spells are 20% less effective, gain an extra 35% fortification, and repair spells are 25% more effective

tier-3 healing spells are 35% less effective, gain an extra 55% fortification, and repair spells are 45% more effective

tier-4 immune to healing spells, gain an extra 75% fortification, and repair spells are now 80% more effective.


Reforged Self

tier-1 resistance to positive energy healing spells is decreased by 10%, lose 5% fortification.

tier-2 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 20%, lose 10% fornication, repair spells are 10% less effective.

tier-3 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 30%, lose 15% fortification, repair spells are 30% less effective.

tier-4 resistance to healing spells is decreased by 40%, repair spells are 50% less effective.

The idea is that these would cost 1 AP per tier and warforged could reach 100% base healing when wearing a blood docent in exchange for losing their fortification bonus.

I disagree with this...I have no problem with the ideas for the lines but these should be WF Racial PrEs NOT so random line in their Race Tree.

Also Juggernaut vs. Reforged should not be ONLY a matter of Repair Amp+More Fort vs. Heal Amp+Less Fort. Juggernaut should get some sort of charge ability with extra effects getting added with each tier and Reforged should get some other bonus as well.

[Aldured]

Found an interesting post by Caervas (source http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=215551).

Was basically a Caster with high BAB (15).

Two things I like about this PRE are

1) High BAB arcane/melee caster with a different focus than say warchanter, Artificer variants or Purple Dragon (or at least what I suppose will be Purple Dragon anyway)

2) Some say pure, but the OP suggested it would be a multiclass PRE, and to be honest I like the idea of multiclass pres. If were going down the 3 tree limit path, then we might as well give different incentives to multiclassing to the point of making them equivalent to pure builds (and yes that also means balanced :P)

Dunno if anyone else likes it, but in anycase I hope to see more interest in multiclass pres. Perhaps not in concrete examples but how this would/could turn out. For example:

* capstones?
* How would it fit in the new UI?
* What do devs think about the idea of leaving this door opened ?
* What possible niches are we looking to fill?

Im not suggesting going overboard but maybe including this posiblity when considering trees and such. That way the foundations for these new PREs would be here and could probably see some of them in the near future (maybe U15 maybe later, but U15 would be nice)


On an entirely different note, I like the pay extra for stuff that you shouldnt have access to idea : say 2* for one tier aobe that which you qualify for, 3* for 2 and maybe say 10*(or more) for a capstone you missed; thus making multis completely either jack of all trades or specialized builds by means of AP cost/feat requirements alone...

But since were getting access to most of the trees anyway (save the really good stuff) I dont see this catching on at all, and thats probably for the best.

Cheers

[Failedlegend]

comment about hybrid PrEs

I actually mentioned this earlier in the thread a few times


Thats why I think they should add in "Hybrid" PrEs to give a place to PrEs that don't fit with just one class..Eldritch Knight require levels in both an arcane and martial class...Sacred Fist requires Monk + Cleric...etc. It would add something unique to deep splashes which at this point is needed since the new system from what we know will heavily favor Single Class/Light Splash builds.

Here's a quick example using Swiftblade (and using the Tempest Template)

The Requirements:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

Note: This means a Arcane18/Martial2 would only have access to tier 2

The "Free Bonuses"

5 Points Spent: Gain Spring Attack
10 Points Spent: Swiftblade I, 10% Blur Effect, +1 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save
15 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 50% Longer
20 Points Spent: Swiftblade II, 20% Blur Effect, +2 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 1d6 Untyped Damage
25 Points Spent: Haste Lasts 100% Longer & Cannot be Dispelled
30 Points Spent: Swiftblade III, 30% Blur Effect, +4 AC, To-Hit & Reflex Save, All Hits deal an extra 2d6 Untyped Damage
41 Points Spent: Perpetual Celerity - When any Haste effect is on you it lasts until Rest/Death

The PrE Tree itself would likely have a bunch of movement related things like increased run speed, immunity to knockdown, freedom of movement, balance, jump, tumble,etc. also some way to increase BAB...only while hasted of course

Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons.


A few other Examples:

Swiftblade: Any Arcane + Martial (Note: Alot of SB abilities require "Haste" to function)

Pirate Captain: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight: Palemaster + Paladin

?????: Arty Master Maker + Rogue Mechanic (This just NEEDS a Hybrid PrE...it just feels right.)

Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

Fist of the Forest: Druid + Monk



I'd like to reiterate that a Rogue Mech + Arty Master Maker Hybrid PrE !!MUST!! be made...Self-Forged could be an option..with bonuses to fort and ability to be repair (with some heal amp penalties of course), the ability to utilize docents (as well as any other armor their proficient in), possibly some immunities, Con Bonus, etc.

[airavon]

I actually mentioned this earlier in the thread a few times



Here's a few Hybrids I thought would be cool for various reasons.



I'd like to reinterate that a Rouge Mech + Arty Master Maker Hybrid PrE !!MUST!! be made...Self-Forged could be an option..with bonuses to fort and ability to be repair (with some heal amp penalties of course), the ability to utilize docents (as well as any other armor their proficient in), possiblym some immunities, Con Bonus, etc.

I agree completely. Hybrid PrEs are an amazing idea. Here's my idea on how they would work in the UI, since I think someone mentioned that.

There would be a button at the bottom, labeled:
Enable Hybrid PrEs
That would make Hybrid PrEs appear in the general tab. There would be too many for them to be their by default, because they would clutter things up too much.

If this is implemented, I'm so making an Elven Wizard PM Bladesinger PDK/Kensai Eldritch Knight.

[Failedlegend]

I agree completely. Hybrid PrEs are an amazing idea. Here's my idea on how they would work in the UI, since I think someone mentioned that.

There would be a button at the bottom, labeled:
Enable Hybrid PrEs
That would make Hybrid PrEs appear in the general tab. There would be too many for them to be their by default, because they would clutter things up too much.

If this is implemented, I'm so making an Elven Wizard PM Bladesinger PDK/Kensai Eldritch Knight.

I think (assuming 3 Tree limit) the best way would be the first 2 PrEs must fulfill the prerequisite of the Hybrid PrE...ie. PrE 1 (Mechanic) + PrE 2 (Master Maker) Unlocks Self-Forged in the 3rd PrE slot if you wish.

This also works if you remove the Tree limit but keep the PrE limit at 3 (IOW you can spend AP in as many Tree's as you want but only get the "free bonuses" in your chosen three ie. Mech + MM = SF.)

In you Elven Wizards case you would be a PM/PDK/Bladesinger or a Elven PM/Kensai/E-Knight or something like that

[airavon]

I think (assuming 3 Tree limit) the best way would be the first 2 PrEs must fulfill the prerequisite of the Hybrid PrE...ie. PrE 1 (Mechanic) + PrE 2 (Master Maker) Unlocks Self-Forged in the 3rd PrE slot if you wish.

This also works if you remove the Tree limit but keep the PrE limit at 3 (IOW you can spend AP in as many Tree's as you want but only get the "free bonuses" in your chosen three ie. Mech + MM = SF.)

In you Elven Wizards case you would be a PM/PDK/Bladesinger or a Elven PM/Kensai/E-Knight or something like that

That's what I was thinking for the Pre-reqs, someone asked how the Hybrid PrEs would fit in UI, and I was answering that.

[Failedlegend]

That's what I was thinking for the Pre-reqs, someone asked how the Hybrid PrEs would fit in UI, and I was answering that.

Same way you select the rest of the PrEs.

3 Tree Limit = Select from a drop down menu...you only see PrEs your eligible for.

No Limit = Any Tree you have access to it displayed along the right side of the UI similar to spell levels each with its own unique Icon. Clicking a tab shows you it's tree...each tab also has a check box and you can select up to three once you've selected two a new tab may appear if you qualify for a Hybrid PrE...going to that tab shows any available...selecting one of those will cause the "Hybrid Icon" to become the Icon for that specific Hybrid PrE

Similar to this Except replace familiar with "Hybrid"...familiar,construct, etc. and Racial will actually be their own tabs at the top and it will actually be its own UI (as opposed to being part of the character sheet) which will allow for future additions by adding tabs along the top just like the Character sheet.

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/UIMockUP.png

Side-note: I think it would be cool if each race has a variable enhancement line based on their sub race (ie. Dwarf could choose Gold Dwarf, Shield Dwarf, Duergar,etc. or Drow could choose Lloth or Vulkoor)

[WurmBurned]

I disagree with this...I have no problem with the ideas for the lines but these should be WF Racial PrEs NOT so random line in their Race Tree.

Also Juggernaut vs. Reforged should not be ONLY a matter of Repair Amp+More Fort vs. Heal Amp+Less Fort. Juggernaut should get some sort of charge ability with extra effects getting added with each tier and Reforged should get some other bonus as well.

PREs function more like class archetypes than true prestige classes at this point and I doubt we’ll get full racial PREs the way things are looking now. Either way, they could always add enhancements that hook into these at a later time.

I’m not sure how well bullrush would work in DDO, but an AOE knockdown could fit the theme and a passive thorn-guard could be in-line with the PRC as well.

Maybe the reforged line could grant access to stacking wisdom or charisma enhancements? I’m not as familiar with that one.

Honestly, I don’t care what the lines are called. I just want better healing.

[Ziindarax]

i find it funny that this basic question about the sudden need for a 3 tree limit has been asked at least a hundred times in this thread withuot a single response as to why. do the devs not understand the question? or maybe they dont understand why its a big deal? this 3 tree limit is a break from how DDO has been for its entire life. Char gen options has always been one of the best things about DDO, and its one of the most striking differeneces between DDO and other MMO's. how can you not answer this question, beyond the whole 'make it easier for new players' buyll**** that is.

enough with the 'hmmmm' and 'interesting idea' and 'still reading!' posts from the devs, come on. in the immortal words of wyatt earp - if you have come to a fight, get busy fighting or get the hell outta the way.

This. Considering a number of us have shelled out money for the expansion pack (including the Collector edition), I think we have the right to know what the deal is in relation to the sudden need of a three tree limit.

Why do we need a three-tree limit? Why not keep the number of trees unlimited, and simply organize the display a bit?

[qoolboxer]

What I would like to see is to have 10/10 dual class splits viable - which means having Tier 2 PrE at level 10 instead of 12. Maybe having 4 tiers, at levels 5,10,15,20 instead, would provide clear advantage to level 20 pure class and still provide incentives for dual classing.

[Artos_Fabril]

I think (assuming 3 Tree limit) the best way would be the first 2 PrEs must fulfill the prerequisite of the Hybrid PrE.
Why would you need to lock in all three trees for one hybrid PrE?

Although I like the general idea, I disagree with basically everything you mentioned for implementation.
1) Hybrid Trees should not be less restrictive on level splits than pure class trees. (1/1, 3/3, ... 10/10)
--7/7/6 and 13/7 are not "pure hybrids" so they should not get capstone benefit, nor should a 14/6 get a tier 3(6) PrE. there still have to be tradeoffs.
2) Locking in 3 PrEs just to get the one you want? Terribad.
--With the new system, you already change out trees with a dropdown, put the hybrid trees on the dropdown.
----If the system doesn't support this readily, put a 0 point "unlock" enhancement for each hybrid PrE in the qualifying classes' general tabs.
3) Caster hybrids need to be capable of becoming viable casters, either by PrE granted benefits or by selected enhancements within the tree.
--This means high value spell pen and DC lines, or enhancements that count the other class's levels for purposes of spell pen and raise the cap on heighten, possibly by granting higher level spells or spell slots. (See my ideas earlier in the thread on Mystic Theurge.)

[Monkey-Boy]

Please keep the class level restrictions in tact.

There's still NON-AP reasons for an 18/1/1 or an 18/2 splash . . . but being able to take a tier III PRE with only 1 level in a class is just beyond dumb.

[justagame]

IMO there is a danger in wanting multiclasses to be able to do it all, and have the best of both worlds-- you seriously dilute pure classes.

IMO, a pure class should be demonstrably more powerful in the abilities of that class -- and in a meaningful, non-replicable way.

Multiclassed characters need tradeoffs. You should NOT be able to get the full, or core values, of a class, just by splashing a level or two. That's why the 6-level increment to the current PRE system is a good idea, IMO.

The reason multiclasses are so appealing, is that people can gear up, make careful tradeoffs, and MAKE them work, as more flexible, multifaceted characters. They shouldn't be more powerful builds on their face.

[EatSmart]

I believe there is a post somewhat covering this buried somewhere in this thread.

Basic concept, if I'm remembering correctly, is that the racial PrEs will require an AP expenditure to be unlocked. So if you've already got it as a class PrE you will be saving points.

I'll have a hunt. So basically an elf AA is gimp, as other races could be sourcing extra dps from assassin, kensei etc?

[Monkey-Boy]

I'll have a hunt. So basically an elf AA is gimp, as other races could be sourcing extra dps from assassin, kensei etc?

Did I miss it anywhere in the 200ish pages of this thread . . . are elves getting any love to make them more viable at all?

[Yaga_Nub]

Interesting idea.

No it's not an interesting idea Varg. MCing already has a ton of benefits. Making PrEs easier to get shouldn't be considered.

[waterboytkd]

So basically what your saying is no level gating can have 2 outcomes

1 - Non-PrE enhancements are so powerful its worth splashing 1 level & losing a Tree/PrE to get them in which case removing the level gating is a bad idea

2 - Non-PrE enhancements are NOT powerful enough to be worth splashing 1 level & losing a Tree/PrE to get access to them in which cause the removal of level gating is mostly pointless

So it will either be a bad thing or make no difference...yeah I'm still in the it's a dumb idea camp.

Also it seems you accidentely made a good case for why the 3 Tree limit is bad.

The only two limiting factors should be Level Gating (which can be reduced by 1 or 2 if its your favored class) and Availible AP.

Wow. Not even remotely what I said. In fact, what I was getting at is the middle ground of your two extreme examples. Being able to get all the stuff out of a tree from your splash class opens up some powerful tree combinations, but the trade-off is losing out on PrE Bonuses. As long as the PrE Bonuses are powerful, too, then there's a choice to be made, and both choices are good choices.

You could be a splash who takes trees from the splash classes and gets lots of synergy and power from non-PrE-Bonus Enhancements, or you could be a splash who doesn't take a majority of splash class trees, and instead rocks out his main class PrE Bonuses. Or you could be deep multi, and do something similar (either be eclectic with the trees and get great synergy but lose out on PrE Bonuses, or focus on your class(es) that have more levels and get more PrE Bonuses). Then there's the single-class option, who gets the bonuses of PrE Bonuses no matter what trees he invests in, and also has capstones available.

What I was "basically saying" is that no-level-gating will be balanced in this way: tree synergy vs PrE Bonuses.

[Aldured]

Glad to see such a strong interest in hybrid PRE's. But before I start, Ill just give a Wall of text warning, just read words in bold if you want to skim.

UI

I really like this idea:




http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/UIMockUP.png


Elegant, simple & powerful; keeps clutter to a minimum, and is flexible enough to embrace future changes. So it could be used to solve our current issues (many many trees for a 3 classed char) and help expand later.

Locking trees

I honestly think locking trees on ALL hybrid PREs is a bad idea. Im thinking more on the lines of a case by case basis, the reasons being:

a) There are many reasons to multiclass, Id say there could be many different criteria for these hybrid PREs
b) Multiclassing isn't supposed to introduce you to the game (thats what paths are for), adding a "read before you roll" requirement is something inherent to good multiclassing anyway.

Also with the above mentioned UI, there is really no need to hide hybrid trees. You can't choose a tree you don't qualify for, or if you already chose 3. Perhaps you could somehow show all possible options for a class to help plan, but honestly I think the wiki would help a lot more if you want to think outside the box anyway.

So :

a) Swiftblade: Any Arcane + Martial (Note: Alot of SB abilities require "Haste" to function) - Not locking
b) Pirate Captain: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight - Locking

Capstone

As for wether or not a multi gets a capstone, I see no problem provided:

a) Capstone requirements are steep and well designed (feats, BAB, lvls, enhancements & even stats), this should both avoid exploits and increase flexibility (remember all your already missing
b) Since balance is the main goal and you have multiclassed, the cap will be good but not great; IO pure ones are the best ones, but theres no reason to disregard an alternative way of accomplishing a role just an exploit version. That means exploit builds might not be as strong.

Maybe the Pirate Captian gets it and Swiftblade doesn't, or viceversa, both? neither?. Point is, it depends on the contents/requirements/purpose of PRE's/Build so .... my vote is for case by case :P

If not a capstone, just a level gated enhancement. In anycase the idea is to balance, the more specific the requirements the less of an exploit its allowed to be. If you do a "pure" Pirate Captain, why dont you get your reward? You did your homework and are not better or worse then a pure warchanter.

In anycase for the most part I can see this happening: a pure class's capstones is great, multi's PRE cap or enhancement good.

In all fairness the whole purpose of this would be to balance multis, the 3 tree restriction is a mighty blow to the once flexible world of multiclassing so for certain builds it might not be a bad idea to help further specialization and tread new paths.

On Race Enhancement lines

Changing the hybrid subject a little:



Side-note: I think it would be cool if each race has a variable enhancement line based on their sub race (ie. Dwarf could choose Gold Dwarf, Shield Dwarf, Duergar,etc. or Drow could choose Lloth or Vulkoor)


Well LORDO did something along these lines...
However this Id like much better. It would work with roleplayers and builders alike. I'm thinking it should be selected upon creation (with your name and aligment). Perhaps prebuilt paths could offer suggestions (would also help if done to aligments)

Bullrush

If a minotaur can do it, so could a Juggernaut right? It does sound fun, though rather than a circular AOE, guess it would be similar to bowling heh affects
Id suppose it would have a DC mechanic similar to sunder or stunning blow. I can see this working as a Feat plus Ap exclusive to warfoged that can only be upgraded as a Juggernaut. Also, instead of a very lengthy cooldown, perhaps it could take some time before charging (which could be made shorter by investing APs).

This should be a very powerful ability for Warforged Barbs as it would effectively replace stunning blow/toughness (fighters have more feats and hence dont get a say). Becoming more powerful by sacrificing your cleric healing ability, selecting a racial PRE and AP investemnet sounds right to me. If its DC is Str based, barbs would certainly have reasons to opt for this so long as its correctly implemented .


Ok guys, this is already too long, thanks for reading and happy questing :)

[Talias006]

No it's not an interesting idea Varg. MCing already has a ton of benefits. Making PrEs easier to get shouldn't be considered.

Unless they are new MC PrE's?
That alone might change how we view MC characters.
Pure's will still have their niche, but MC would possibly find a new (expanded) home here.

[Failedlegend]

Stuff

First off I wouldn't call my example mock-up elegant lol...I'm sure the art/UI team will likely do a much better job.

I disagree that Hybrid PrEs should have no or lesser Capstones as theyir just comitted to that build as a Single-Class is.

Currently I have the Level Reqs like this:

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane3/Martial3 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 20

but I think this would be better

Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

This way its still a flexible PrE but if you want the Capstone (which should be equal in power/usefulness as any other Capstone) your locked into those two classes (which depending on the Hybrid PrE could be fairly flexible still like Swiftblade Arcane+Martial...or could be pretty much locked in like Self-Forged Mech+Master Maker)

The PrE Tree's themselves would likely contain boosts to both related PrEs/PrE Types to offset the fact that your missing 10 levels in said class.



Unless they are new MC PrE's?
That alone might change how we view MC characters.
Pure's will still have their niche, but MC would possibly find a new (expanded) home here.

Note that despite it being a fairly popular & positively viewed subject the devs haven't made even a fleeting comment about Hybrid PrEs so its not really something that can be used in discussions of balance.

Personally I'd say the simplest solutions are

1. Remove the Tree limit entirely the limited AP and Level gating is enough to control spreading oneself to thin

2. Only allow 3 of said trees to be chosen as "PrE Bonus Enabled"

3. Add a general tab with stuff like spell damage, monk stance, favored enemy, Stat boosts etc. with the relevant class levels as pre-reqs (ie. Fighter,Barb,etc. X for Mighty Strength X) anything thats part of the "core" class and only stuff directly related to the PrEs should be in the PrE trees.

4. Make Stat boost into 2 Types Racial (Which is in your racial tab) and Class Mighty Strength (which is in the general tab)

5. Add Hybrid PrEs...see above for requirements.

6. Remove Carbon Copied Racial PrEs and either leave it as-is or add actual racial PrEs

Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Make it complement DoS & SD)
Halfing: Talentia Rider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly (Yeah I know this sort of breaks my no Carbon Copy rule but it fits)

7. Add in the favored class system in the form of reducing any Level gating in the favored class (ie. Dwarf = Fighter...this includes Hybrids) by 2. With the caveat that you need at least one level in said class.

8. Have about 60AP of worthwhile enhancements per PrE Tree

9. Make the general tab have its own points system which is either gained at the same rate as AP or is gained based on which class you take that level (amount based on total GP available to said class) with the latter only being necessary if there's a big gap in amount of general enhancements for the different classes.

10. Add a variable enhancement line to the Racial tab based on their chosen "Sub-class" (chosen at creation similar to LOTRO)

11. Rename Action points to Augmentation Points as it makes alot more sense :P

[Silverleafeon]

Any chance the completionist feat could not cost a feat slot?

Perhaps by creating a extra past life tree or some sort?

[orakio]

@failedlegend I don't like the concept of hybrid PrE's in relation to DDO's current implementation of classes for a few reasons, and certainly don't like the idea of capstones being available for multi's as that is one of the biggest bonuses of staying pure.

1) Classes tend to be frontloaded on class features, this means that a multiclass often picks up very potent bonuses for smaller investments (evasion/feats/umd access/etc.) which capstones are designed to offset.

2) Hybrid PrE's allow for more PrE options for multiclasses than pure's will ever have access to. The concept of hybrid PrE's is strictly beneficial to multiclass characters causing larger potential problems in the balance of pure vs. splash vs. deep multi than a system that doesn't have them.

3) Hybrid PrE's would effectively lock in all 3 tree's of a character, if I understand your proposal correctly. That leads to less character variety which just seems like the wrong way to go. Without them a deep multi would be looking at anywhere up to 8 different trees (7 from non-selected classes + 1 more if a racial tree was use) for their third tree investments if they wanted it, instead in a hybrid multi system you would be looking at 1 hybrid tree... every time.

This isn't to say that a system couldn't be implemented, but there would have to be large changes to higher level class features to offset that advantage of multiclassing before you take away the advantage of pures and splashes (higher tier PrE's and capstones). If you were to do all of that then I still think you would need the more restrictive (10/10 class split and char level 20) capstone requirements to balance out hybrid PrE access against pure's but that would all be dependant on the actual enhancements/PrE features themselves.

It just seems like the hybrid system would be so much more complicated to implement and balance than a system in which PrE features are balanced against tree synergy.

As for racial specific PrE's, I agree that they should go in at some point as some of the class PrE's are kind of forced on races that they don't really have a background for. That being said if I had to choose between using current proposed class PrE's as racials and having everything released at once, or them adding unique racial PrE's for every race but it delaying(or not being released with) the enhancement system change then I would choose using the current class PrE's and adding in unique racial PrE's after the system is released.

[Cyr]

I believe there is a post somewhat covering this buried somewhere in this thread.

Basic concept, if I'm remembering correctly, is that the racial PrEs will require an AP expenditure to be unlocked. So if you've already got it as a class PrE you will be saving points.

Yeah, it was a little unclear to me, but my impression was that it worked as follows...


There is one racial tree or tab that is set by your choice of races. That tab would have all the normal stuff you expect from racial enhancements like Horc PA or dwarven axe damage.
There would be three trees or tabs for PrEs. These would be chosen by the player with the option of one of them being a 'racial PrE' if you spent enough points in the racial tree.
Basically for races with junk racial enhancements you would indeed be throwing away points, but for races with very solid racial enhancements you would only be losing out on putting those X points (however many that may be) towards a specific PrE for free PrE tier benefits. While that is a sacrifice I do not think it is correct to label it as 'saving points' as it seems likely that any melee will be more then happy to spend some points in the Horc racial tree for example. On the flip side the elven racial tree is junk as is the drow racial tree so unless those get some seriously nice new enhancements that will be a big sacrifice.

[Failedlegend]

1) Classes tend to be frontloaded on class features, this means that a multiclass often picks up very potent bonuses for smaller investments (evasion/feats/umd access/etc.) which capstones are designed to offset.

This part I do agree with to an extent...I do think there needs to be an incentive to be level 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19 AND 20 in every class...I don't care if the devs need to make up abilities out of thin air (although some PnP 3.5 Purists might) but some classes have ALOT of dead or meh levels

Now the caveat is we should not remove anything from the lower levels because doing so would jeopardize the reason to multiclass...8/6/6,12/6/2,etc. builds are fun...but the higher levels need a boost



2) Hybrid PrE's allow for more PrE options for multiclasses than pure's will ever have access to. The concept of hybrid PrE's is strictly beneficial to multiclass characters


I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Thats like saying adding Occult Slayer is a bad thing because it only benefits Barbarians.



3) Hybrid PrE's would effectively lock in all 3 tree's of a character, if I understand your proposal correctly. That leads to less character variety which just seems like the wrong way to go. Without them a deep multi would be looking at anywhere up to 8 different trees (7 from non-selected classes + 1 more if a racial tree was use) for their third tree investments if they wanted it, instead in a hybrid multi system you would be looking at 1 hybrid tree... every time.

Thats wrong the hybrid PrE would be an OPTION not a requirement...also you may have noticed most of the PrEs are fairly open (ie. Cleric+Monk, Arcane+Martial) with only a few being specific which are mostly niche builds (ie. Mech + Master Maker = Self-Forged)



This isn't to say that a system couldn't be implemented, but there would have to be large changes to higher level class features to offset that advantage of multiclassing before you take away the advantage of pures and splashes (higher tier PrE's and capstones). If you were to do all of that then I still think you would need the more restrictive (10/10 class split and char level 20) capstone requirements to balance out hybrid PrE access against pure's but that would all be dependant on the actual enhancements/PrE features themselves.


It already is 10/10 for the capstone



Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20




It just seems like the hybrid system would be so much more complicated to implement and balance than a system in which PrE features are balanced against tree synergy.


I don't see how a Hybrid PrE is any harder to balance than a regular one...if anything it's EASIER because its a bit more controlled.



As for racial specific PrE's, I agree that they should go in at some point as some of the class PrE's are kind of forced on races that they don't really have a background for. That being said if I had to choose between using current class PrE's as racials and having everything released at once or them adding unique racial PrE's for every race but it delaying the enhancement system change then I would choose using the current class PrE's and adding in unique racial PrE's after the system is released.

I never said delay the new enhancements system (although it might depending how it takes from on Lama) I said "either give us proper racial PrEs or wait until later to implement them if you don't have the time...I'd rather have no racial PrEs than copies"

[Grailhawk]

Has there been any thought/discussion been given to the idea of decoupling PRE's from specific classes? This would make them more like Prestige Classes and would give players more flexibility in character design.

[Aelonwy]

Has there been any thought/discussion been given to the idea of decoupling PRE's from specific classes? This would make them more like Prestige Classes and would give players more flexibility in character design.

There's been no mention of this... and I seriously doubt it would ever be considered. With their reluctance to even comment on the possibility of a general tab and the few details they've given indicating that they are tying general class enhancements into specific PrEs... well so far I would say they are headed in the exact opposite direction of your query.

[Failedlegend]

Dear devs in this thread MajMalphunktion has made a GREAT example of how to provide feed back.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4359759&postcount=88

Here's a few examples related to this thread:

Q:Addition of General Tab to keep the players option open and keep the PrE Trees feeling unique

A:This is definately something were thinking of adding were just not sure how to keep it from taking to many AP away from the PrE trees...were considering a seperate points system for general enhancements




Q: Will Hybrid PrEs ever be considered

A: This most likely won't make it into the XPack but it is definately something we want to get in DDO in the nearish future as there's lots of PrEs we want to add to the game that doesn't fit with any one class...also the new UI/System will make it alot easier to add new content such as this as was mentioned earlier




Q: When do you think this will be on Lamannia

A: We don't have an exact date yet but were hoping to have it ready late <insert month here> or early <insert next month here> as we want as much feedback as possible as soon as possible so we have time to adjust


All of the above is of course subject to change and partially just opinion



I still definately recommend making a new thread and having the basic info and any responses to player ideas...than lock this thread with the final post being a link to the new thread.

[MadFloyd]

Dear devs in this thread MajMalphunktion has made a GREAT example of how to provide feed back.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4359759&postcount=88



Ahhh... red font. Got it. :)

[Cyr]

Ahhh... red font. Got it. :)

Was starting to think you had fallen and could not get up Mad.

Can we get as much of a mock up as you guys have now for this new system?

Lots of us are eager to explore the actual build possibilities so we can break them for you guys in time for you to decide if you really want certain combinations as possibilities in the new system before it goes live.

[Lifespawn]

Was starting to think you had fallen and could not get up Mad.

Can we get as much of a mock up as you guys have now for this new system?

Lots of us are eager to explore the actual build possibilities so we can break them for you guys in time for you to decide if you really want certain combinations as possibilities in the new system before it goes live.



^^this

i'd rather break it before you release it and have you change it than make the build and pour effort into gearing it only to have it nerfed in the end.

[Ziindarax]

Ahhh... red font. Got it. :)

Any word on the tree limits?

[C00LBR33Z3]

It'd be nice to get an updated look for discussion...or an update/puzzle for some new PRE's

I'm suffering from puzzle withdraw, haven't seen on in months.

[Scraap]

Ahhh... red font. Got it. :)

Mockups Please?

:p

[Failedlegend]

Ahhh... red font. Got it. :)

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2777/4281285527_e607c436aa_z.jpg

Seriosuly though we just need more info...we not sure what you want from us anymore and have no way of gauging what you think of our ideas...we just need some answers regardless of how many disclaimers you need to throw at us with it.

Also yes mock-ups and let us break it...even a quick builder :P

[MadFloyd]

Pardon my long absence. I'll spare you the ugly stories of how I was kidnapped and found myself in central america.

As for the state of enhancements, we're currently in the process of getting the info into Mournland's hands for initial feedback. Apart from some classes that have been implemented in a rudimentary fashion, most of it is theoretical (tree diagrams, descriptions) as we don't want to go too far without feedback.

Once that is done we'll start posting it here (I will start a separate thread so that it's visible).

[HatsuharuZ]

Any word on the tree limits?

I myself would love to see what kinds of abilities the new PrEs have. ^_^

[Failedlegend]

We're currently in the process of getting the info into Mournland's hands for initial feedback.

Need any more mournlanders?

[Krelar]

Need any more mournlanders?


How to apply:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=282419

[Aelonwy]

Pardon my long absence. I'll spare you the ugly stories of how I was kidnapped and found myself in central america.

As for the state of enhancements, we're currently in the process of getting the info into Mournland's hands for initial feedback. Apart from some classes that have been implemented in a rudimentary fashion, most of it is theoretical (tree diagrams, descriptions) as we don't want to go too far without feedback.

Once that is done we'll start posting it here (I will start a separate thread so that it's visible).

Good to hear Mad... well all except the kidnap part. Looking forward to new information. Not to add any pressure but the possible changes are definitely in my file of "could make or break" the game. So... good luck. ;)

[sirgog]

Pardon my long absence. I'll spare you the ugly stories of how I was kidnapped and found myself in central america.

Screenshot (of the ransom note) or it didn't happen.


As for the state of enhancements, we're currently in the process of getting the info into Mournland's hands for initial feedback. Apart from some classes that have been implemented in a rudimentary fashion, most of it is theoretical (tree diagrams, descriptions) as we don't want to go too far without feedback.

Once that is done we'll start posting it here (I will start a separate thread so that it's visible).

Definitely start a new thread. Maybe one for each class as well as one for the general UI/non-class-specific suggestions.

[Aashrym]

Pardon my long absence. I'll spare you the ugly stories of how I was kidnapped and found myself in central america.

As for the state of enhancements, we're currently in the process of getting the info into Mournland's hands for initial feedback. Apart from some classes that have been implemented in a rudimentary fashion, most of it is theoretical (tree diagrams, descriptions) as we don't want to go too far without feedback.

Once that is done we'll start posting it here (I will start a separate thread so that it's visible).

If you have a few then what are the chances we can get more info on them right away? I will even add a 'please' ;)

[Failedlegend]

Once that is done we'll start posting it here (I will start a separate thread so that it's visible).

What sort of time frame are we looking at? even just a rough estimate

[Malky]

What sort of time frame are we looking at? even just a rough estimate

Thoon ?

[orakio]

I fail to see how that's a bad thing. Thats like saying adding Occult Slayer is a bad thing because it only benefits Barbarians.
I don't think that anything needs to be done to change the relative strength of multiclasses vs. pures at the moment as I think in most cases it is fairly comparable with a slight advantage to multis. What adding hybrid PrE's does is ONLY increase the effectiveness of deep multiclass characters without really effecting splashes or pures at all which I personally don't think is necessary in any way. It's a personal opinion and just something that I differ with you on.


Thats wrong the hybrid PrE would be an OPTION not a requirement...also you may have noticed most of the PrEs are fairly open (ie. Cleric+Monk, Arcane+Martial) with only a few being specific which are mostly niche builds (ie. Mech + Master Maker = Self-Forged)
Correct, it is an option. But you have to recognize that the potential strength of any tier3 PrE/capstone makes it very difficult to find a BETTER option out of trees that don't have PrE access. It isn't mandatory but potentially close enough to it that you would see more cookie cutter builds out of the hybrid system then not due to needing all 3 trees.



I don't see how a Hybrid PrE is any harder to balance than a regular one...if anything it's EASIER because its a bit more controlled.
It isn't directly harder to balance a hybrid system as you treat it as a full PrE. The problem is that you would need to change many class features (higher level stuff as previously discussed) to compensate and thats where the additional balance difficulty comes into play. It would simply require more work that developers havn't begun.


I never said delay the new enhancements system (although it might depending how it takes from on Lama) I said "either give us proper racial PrEs or wait until later to implement them if you don't have the time...I'd rather have no racial PrEs than copies"
I know you never said to delay it I just feel like the amount of work you are proposing would naturally delay the system. To be honest many of your ideas have merit for future possibilities of DDO, I just think that you are asking for a lot too quickly. Let them establish their system as described, get everything working (or as close to it as possible) and released at the time they indicate and then after we have the framework and all the core PrE's they can start to address things like unique racial PrE's and the hybrid PrE system.

tl;dr I like your ideas I just think that they should be directions for future development rather than a part of the initial DDO enhancement revision. Take things one step at a time :D

[Monkey-Boy]

Definitely start a new thread. Maybe one for each class as well as one for the general UI/non-class-specific suggestions.

When this hit's lamania each class should get it's own thread, without this subdivision too much could get lost.

[MrkGrismer]

Pardon my long absence. I'll spare you the ugly stories of how I was kidnapped and found myself in central america..

http://rlv.zcache.com/left_for_dead_in_mexico_tshirt-p235168508354976425z899z_152.jpg

[Frotz]

Long thread, so I may have missed something...

Has it been proposed to limit the number of AP you can spend in any one class' trees based on the number of levels you have in that class? Say twice the AP you get per level. Everything in a class tree would have an effective minimum class level based on the accumulated cost to reach it, but it would be your choice to beeline for that in the class trees or not. A pure class could go both broad and deep in their class trees (being able to spend all their available AP in them), while a multiclass would have to pick between broad or deep.

Some variations on that would be if the AP cost were to go up once you've exceeded that class-AP spending limit in a class tree but not actually bar you from spending more in those trees, or if enhancement prereqs were shared across class trees then multis could go deeper by satisfying prereqs in classes with that synergy.

Eh, getting the accumulated cost for everything right would be annoying, but I like the general idea of "you want more X enhancements? Take more levels in X!". :)

[Roguewiz]

i wish they reduce the requirement of class level from 6,12,18 to 4,12,16.. for now it is not very wise to multi class.. hopefully something can be changed..
I disagree. There are plenty of reasons to multi-class. It really depends on your build. You don't "need" the tier 3 prestige enhancement. Heck, you could argue that you don't need prestige enhancements anyways in every build (I don't endorse that idea though).

Besides, most Prestiges are inherently only unlockable in PnP at level 5 or 6 anyways. Dropping the requirement to 4 makes little sense. Some of the abilities you unlock are quite good, perhaps even powerful. To have them unlocked at level 4 could trivialize low level content.

I personally feel the 6, 12, 18 for prestige enhancements works out fine. When you go outside of your primary class, you do so with the understanding that you lose something important. Rogues lose skill points and sneak attack, Casters lose spells, etc. You multiclass out to gain certain abilities, such as Wisdom Bonus to AC from Monks, Charisma to Saves from Paladin, Trap disabling from Rogue, and even to some extent: Feats from Fighters (and Monks).

It forces you to think of your decisions. The only downside is the learning curve for new players is high if they know nothing about DDO and Dungeons and Dragons in general.

[Failedlegend]

I don't think that anything needs to be done to change the relative strength of multiclasses vs. pures at the moment as I think in most cases it is fairly comparable with a slight advantage to multis. What adding hybrid PrE's does is ONLY increase the effectiveness of deep multiclass characters without really effecting splashes or pures at all which I personally don't think is necessary in any way. It's a personal opinion and just something that I differ with you on.

The problem with this statement is its based in the current system....from what we know of the new system Single-classes and light splashes are getting a huge boost while multi-classes are getting slapped down.



Correct, it is an option. But you have to recognize that the potential strength of any tier3 PrE/capstone makes it very difficult to find a BETTER option out of trees that don't have PrE access. It isn't mandatory but potentially close enough to it that you would see more cookie cutter builds out of the hybrid system then not due to needing all 3 trees.


If this would was true NO ONE would ever multi-class as Single-classes get capstones. Besides by taking a hybrid PrE you are unable to have a racial one (either because of the 3 tree linmit or the proposed unlimited trees 3 pre limit) so you would be trading your racial pre capstone for your hybrid capstone.




It isn't directly harder to balance a hybrid system as you treat it as a full PrE. The problem is that you would need to change many class features (higher level stuff as previously discussed) to compensate and thats where the additional balance difficulty comes into play. It would simply require more work that developers havn't begun.

First off I didn't say they would have to change class features to compensate I was saying it was good idea...its a good idea even if Hybrids aren't added.




I know you never said to delay it I just feel like the amount of work you are proposing would naturally delay the system. To be honest many of your ideas have merit for future possibilities of DDO, I just think that you are asking for a lot too quickly. Let them establish their system as described, get everything working (or as close to it as possible) and released at the time they indicate and then after we have the framework and all the core PrE's they can start to address things like unique racial PrE's and the hybrid PrE system.


I've clearly stated that I don't expect it to come with the XPack although I would prefer if they did but since the system is being entirely redesigned its a good time to at least give the system room to grow for stuff like Hybrid PrEs, Cleric Domains, Companions,Racial PrEs, etc. I've also said if they don't have time to do something fully they shouldn't cut corners to get it in...wait till later (ie. If they don't have time to implement racial PrEs don't slap random class PrEs on them just wait until they find time for it)

[Solmage]

Maybe one for each class as well as one for the general UI/non-class-specific suggestions.

Perhaps a bit early for that, at this point I want to see the system as a whole. We can look into how horribly unabalanced X is afterwards ;)

[Aelonwy]

As for the state of enhancements, we're currently in the process of getting the info into Mournland's hands for initial feedback. Apart from some classes that have been implemented in a rudimentary fashion, most of it is theoretical (tree diagrams, descriptions) as we don't want to go too far without feedback.

Once that is done we'll start posting it here (I will start a separate thread so that it's visible).

I find it disconcerting that they still have neither confirmed nor denied that we will see the complete Enhancment UI revamp on Lama before it hits live. We're all assuming we will but they haven't confirmed it. Yes, I am worry-wort. :(

[Phemt81]

I don't know if this was already asked/replied to.

Will the capstone enhancements be changed/improved too?

Will they be less restrictive? Could we have a chance to get a capstone per prestige class?

Just throwing this idea in.

[Artos_Fabril]

I don't know if this was already asked/replied to.
It has been mentioned by a Dev (Eladrin)
Will the capstone enhancements be changed/improved too?
Even after they've all been announced, that is likely to be a matter of opinion
Will they be less restrictive? Could we have a chance to get a capstone per prestige class?
They are not likely to be less restrictive. If anything, it will be more restrictive in that (per latest information) you will need to invest 41 points into the PrE tree for which you desire the capstone. Which is also an answer to your Red question. To wit, "Yes" at least based on current information including the new Tempest capstone as different from the current ranger capstone, which might become either the new AA or DWS capstone.
Just throwing this idea in.

Answers in Greenish

To anyone else joining this thread late. No one expects you to read 200 pages to see if something has been discussed, but you could at least check if there's been a dev post about it by using the search (http://forums.ddo.com/search.php?do=process) function. If you search for dev names in threads with at least 3780 posts, you'll only come up with dev replies in this thread.

By the way, Turbine forums web designers, could we maybe have an option in the search to either enter multiple names, or to search for dev/turbine posts?

[Asmodeus451]

By the way, Turbine forums web designers, could we maybe have an option in the search to either enter multiple names, or to search for dev/turbine posts?

*cough* dev tracker *cough*

[Failedlegend]

*cough* dev tracker *cough*

He means specifically for one thread...also the dev tracker doesn't have the first few words of the post like a search does

[Artos_Fabril]

*cough* dev tracker *cough*


He means specifically for one thread
Or an option to search within the dev tracker specifically. I'm not picky.

[Chai]

I find it disconcerting that they still have neither confirmed nor denied that we will see the complete Enhancment UI revamp on Lama before it hits live. We're all assuming we will but they haven't confirmed it. Yes, I am worry-wort. :(

Confirmation on the office pool which will be on the topic of: How many threads moaning about the new enhancements will be started within the first 48 hours?

Second office pool: How many pages will the longest thread reach in the first week?

[Phemt81]

Answers in Greenish

To anyone else joining this thread late. No one expects you to read 200 pages to see if something has been discussed, but you could at least check if there's been a dev post about it by using the search (http://forums.ddo.com/search.php?do=process) function. If you search for dev names in threads with at least 3780 posts, you'll only come up with dev replies in this thread.

By the way, Turbine forums web designers, could we maybe have an option in the search to either enter multiple names, or to search for dev/turbine posts?

Thank you very much Artos_Fabril for your accurate and fast reply!
Have a +1 as sign of my gratitude for your patience. :)

Also, i'm starting to like the enhancements revamp :D

[bigolbear]

*Sticks his ugly mug back in to have a look.

So where we at with this thread folks, I see Mad has popped back and vargoule made some comments. Any actual confirmation of plans yet?

3 tree limit confirmation?
general tab confirmation/denial?
Class lvl /character lvl gating topic resolution?

Any actual show and tell of the proposed enhancemnt trees yet?

For the record ill state again, my personal preference for ease of useability + functionality is:
3 tree limit + general tree + free floating trees with requirements (such as race or class 1 + class 2 or race and class). none of which has class lvl gating except for capstones and prestige special abilities, and relaxed limits on those to encourage splashes deeper than 18/1/1. CORE features to go in the general tab, specialisations to go in the prestige trees. 1 general 'tree' for all classes.

Ill stress again a point ive made before. All characters irrelevant of class should have access to enhancements that benefit what they can do - this is particularly relevant in spell casters curently. Im talking pure, not multi class.

Clerics should be able to enhance their fire magic for example (they get fire spells right, but no one uses them much because of no enhancements) People with dragon marks should get access to the relevant spell enhancemnts. All characters should be able to enhance any magic they have access to, and to do this in a future proof way the best bet is to make all spell damage enhancement types available to all classes via the general tab. Infact i see no reason why these options shouldnt be open to meles - is it so unreasonable that a mele that always uses a flaming weapon learns how to use a flaming weapon better?

Its not just casters of course, why oh why does a ranger or rogue not get toughness? Growing up in the wild or on the mean streats not gona make you tough? I believe some one suggested toughness unlocks based on either BAB or base hit die? I concur.

All characters should be able to enhance their standard adventuring abilities (be that hit points, sprinting, armour use, hiting things) you know the kind of things any adventurer may want to increase. again the best way to do this is via a general tab.

Fighters realy need some love, infact its true for almost all mele - and i dont mean DPS! I mean more things to do, more buttons to press, more FUN, and some way to plan for self sufficiency out side of splashing for umd or silver flame pots.(this may not be solved by enhancements but could partialy be done so).

If this enhancement pass does nothing else please look at these issues.

[Failedlegend]

*Sticks his ugly mug back in to have a look.

So where we at with this thread folks, I see Mad has popped back and vargoule made some comments. Any actual confirmation of plans yet?

3 tree limit confirmation?
general tab confirmation/denial?
Class lvl /character lvl gating topic resolution?


We've been told nothing still...except that the mournlanders are getting all kinds of juicy NDA'd info that well be told about "Soon"...IOW it's impossible for us to give feedback...My C-Card is standing at the ready to Pre-Order but until I know more it's staying in stand-by



For the record ill state again, my personal preference for ease of useability + functionality is:
3 tree limit + general tree + free floating trees with requirements (such as race or class 1 + class 2 or race and class). none of which has class lvl gating except for capstones and prestige special abilities, and relaxed limits on those to encourage splashes deeper than 18/1/1. CORE features to go in the general tab, specialisations to go in the prestige trees. 1 general 'tree' for all classes.


Personally I'd say the simplest solutions are as follows:

1. Remove the Tree limit entirely the limited AP and Level gating is enough control (removing the level gating would be madness and a nightmare to balance)

2. Only allow 3 of said trees to be chosen as "PrE Bonus Enabled"

3. Add a general tab with stuff like spell damage, monk stance, favored enemy, Stat boosts etc. with the relevant class levels as pre-reqs (ie. Fighter,Barb,etc. X for Mighty Strength X) anything thats part of the "core" class and only stuff directly related to the PrEs should be in the PrE trees.

4. Make Stat boost into 2 Types Racial (Which is in your racial tab) and Class (ie. Mighty Strength or Incredible Intelligence..which should be in the general Tab)

5. Add Hybrid PrEs...pre-reqs something likes this (Note: This can be a we've made room for it but will be adding it later thing)



Tier 1 Bonus: Arcane1/Martial1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Arcane2/Martial2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Arcane4/Martial4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Arcane5/Martial5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Arcane6/Martial6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Arcane7/Martial7 CL 18
Capstone: Arcane10/Martial10 CL 20

This way its still a flexible PrE but if you want the Capstone (which should be equal in power/usefulness as any other Capstone) your locked into those two classes (which depending on the Hybrid PrE could be fairly flexible still like Swiftblade = Arcane+Martial...or could be pretty much locked in like Self-Forged = Mech+Master Maker)

The PrE Tree's themselves would likely contain boosts to both related PrEs/PrE Types to offset the fact that your missing 10 levels in said class as well as a bunch of things to enhance their unique abilities

6. Remove Carbon Copied Racial PrEs and either leave it as-is or add actual racial PrEs



Warforged: Reforged and Juggernaut (Let the player choose to embrace or shed their construct nature...oh and give Juggernaut an overhaul)
Elf: AA and Bladesinger
Dwarf: Dwarven Defender (Make it complement DoS & SD)
Halfing: Talentia Rider (Dunno if a mount is possible...so just make it a companion)
Human: Steelsky Liberator (Good at fighting Larger Enemies with a focus on Dragons)
Drow: Scorpion Wraith
Half-Orc: Kal'thaan Marcher (This is probably spelled incorrectly)
Half-Elf: Soulbow? and Any Class PrE based on Dilly (Yeah I know this sort of breaks my no Carbon Copy rule but it fits)

7. Add in the favored class system in the form of reducing any Level gating in the favored class (ie. Dwarf = Fighter) by 2. (possily just by 1) With the caveat that you need at least one level in said class. (This includes Hybrids so if a Dwarf Swiftblade is using Fighter as his "Martial Class" it's 0/0/2/3/4/5/8 instead of 1/2/4/5/6/7/10 but only for the martial side the Arcane side and the character level requirements are unaffected)

8. Have about 60AP of worthwhile enhancements per PrE Tree

9. Make the general tab have its own points system which is either gained at the same rate as AP or is gained based on which class you take that level (amount based on total GP available to said class) with the latter only being necessary if there's a big gap in amount of general enhancements for the different classes.

10. Add a variable enhancement line to the Racial tab based on their chosen "Sub-class" (chosen at creation similar to LOTRO)

11. Instead of AA (which is an Arcane PrE) Rangers should get the "Beastmaster" PrE which focuses on Animal Companions (similar to Arty dog), tracking skills (ie. can see enemies on minimap,etc.), terrain mastery (gets a different bonus based on terrain type or works similar to Monk "ways" and you get a bonus based on the terrain you choose) than give DWS a much needed boost to make up for the loss of AA.

12. Rename Action points to Augmentation Points as it makes alot more sense :P


Confirmation on the office pool which will be on the topic of: How many threads moaning about the new enhancements will be started within the first 48 hours?


I hope the devs have payed attention to the droves of amazing ideas in the suggestions thread and even brought the section up a few times during planning meetings

Alternatively they could show us a few PrEs at a time ie. Let's Talk: Wild Mage, Let's Talk: Purple Dragon Knight & Let's Talk: Master Maker....do 3 a week between now and the summer starting with the new PrEs, than the most heavily odified and than lastly the least modified...easier for them to deal with and gives us something to do even if their just a list of enhancements not in any tree-like forum or complete in any way...subject to change and all that jazz

[Aldured]

tl;dr I like your ideas I just think that they should be directions for future development rather than a part of the initial DDO enhancement revision. Take things one step at a time :D

Exactly, but thats why it was important to talk about them. With Druid on our way, we already have many classes (some may argue X really important class is still missing, but we do have plenty of choices). So naturaly there are two ways we could go in the future, add more or simply add new posibilities to existing ones. And we wont have them if the new system is built without them in mind.

Not saying we go and build right away, just take the necesary precaution for future development of this and perhaps things like familiar traits and so on (this is why I liked Failedlegend's mockup so much, you can add many many features and still have a streamlined appealing approach; add dev-love and Im sure that UI would knock your socks off)


So if any dev is reading this just consider building the a new UI open to possible hybrid PREs / familiar traits, and so on for future development.


Thank you, and happy questing!

[Failedlegend]

Exactly, but thats why it was important to talk about them. With Druid on our way, we already have many classes (some may argue X really important class is still missing, but we do have plenty of choices). So naturaly there are two ways we could go in the future, add more or simply add new posibilities to existing ones. And we wont have them if the new system is built without them in mind.

Not saying we go and build right away, just take the necessary precaution for future development of this and perhaps things like familiar traits and so on (this is why I liked Failedlegend's mockup so much, you can add many many features and still have a streamlined appealing approach; add dev-love and Im sure that UI would knock your socks off)


So if any dev is reading this just consider building the a new UI open to possible hybrid PREs / familiar traits, and so on for future development.


Thank you, and happy questing!

Those are pretty much my thoughts exactly. Although I wouldn't complain if they stuck a Hyrbid PrE or two on Lama/Mourn to test the waters with the disclaimer that they may be heavily modified/may not hit live with the rest of the Enhancement Update.

Oh and please excuse the shoddy nature of my Mock-up it's literally just a bunch of barely edited C&Ped images from DDO to get my general idea across. Basically you take the enhancements tab out of the character sheet UI (Add a new button to the menu bar)....than you copy the multitab design of the character sheet (Currently would be Racial, PrE, General & Companion) but you also use the side tab setup similar to spell levels for any tab that needs it.

For example a Druid/Arty would have a Tab for their Construct/Homunculus and their Animal Companion and of course there would be multiple tabs in the PrE section each with a smaller checkbox on them allowing for the "choose 3 trees to get PrE bonuses in" (If the 3 Tree limit is kept it would be three tabs each with an dropdown menu of any available Trees)

You may notice "Moon Elf" mentioned and that's for good reason I think it would be cool if each race has a variable enhancement line (which we know the devs can do based on their comments about Savants) based on their sub race (ie. Dwarf could choose Gold Dwarf, Shield Dwarf, Duergar,etc. and Drow could choose Lloth or Vulkoor, and so on) it would allow some variety between members of the same race and add some flavor.

Add that, some build sliders (ie. torso, height,build,etc.) and we'll start to see alot more variety in looks but of course this is a plans for the future thing but may as well be mentioned since it seems like the devs are planning to slowly replace old systems one at a time as opposed to a DDO2 (this is entirely speculation on my part)



Note: Ignore the Familiar Tab at the side-bottom & the Racial Tab at the side-top those were old ideas that as I mentioned earlier would fit better as Top Tabs (I may make a new one when I get some time)

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/UIMockUP.png

[Cyr]

Pardon my long absence. I'll spare you the ugly stories of how I was kidnapped and found myself in central america.

As for the state of enhancements, we're currently in the process of getting the info into Mournland's hands for initial feedback. Apart from some classes that have been implemented in a rudimentary fashion, most of it is theoretical (tree diagrams, descriptions) as we don't want to go too far without feedback.

Once that is done we'll start posting it here (I will start a separate thread so that it's visible).

Huh, I would imagine this is not making it into the expansion.

Otherwise a round at ML before live even gets to comment on it means pretty much no time to make major changes before it goes onto the live servers and hence no major changes from live feedback.

So are we talking about update after the expansion then or later on this being soft targetted?

[Aldured]

Those are pretty much my thoughts exactly. Although I wouldn't complain if they stuck a Hyrbid PrE or two on Lama/Mourn to test the waters with the disclaimer that they may be heavily modified/may not hit live with the rest of the Enhancement Update.


Glad to know where on the same page. Oh and for the sake of reducing time, you could always make a dummy enhancecenment tree consisting of 3 tiers of nothing. The only purpose would be to test the UI, which is in anycase the #1 goal.

Also as food for future thought. Id say Hybrid PRE's with capstones aren't an issue at all, so long as you take the following into account. A barb loses AC, a thief with medium/heavy aromor loses evasion; perhaps a PRE will grant you some very strong abilities that strenghthen some chars aspects but inhibit others.

Tradeof is the basis of character development, multiclassing is advanced character development. I believe that if tradeoff is included in hybrid PRE design you get many many more alternatives, because ignoring and embracing the PRE would then be equally appealing alternatives and provide radically different outcomes.

In anycase, not saying that we do, but maybe when and if its done this could be a good way of doing it. Wed have more alternatives without cookiecutter/overpowered builds :)

On a different topic, hope some unpolished stuff (thinking about pure PREs here) makes it to lamania. It sure would be fun to check them out and see the evolution process in itself (and of course help out with constructive criticism)

[toapat]

Did I miss it anywhere in the 200ish pages of this thread . . . are elves getting any love to make them more viable at all?
no, not really. I personally am so tired of Human/Helf is so awesome, they are the only races in the game. you know why? Because of something with only gave humans a slight edge in pen and paper, became a huge f-ing bonus in this game, while Half Elves get to take +3d6 sneak attack damage with minimal drawback.

asto the level gating debate:

Ok, lets actually compare the problems with levelgating on and off:

Level Gating On: Mutliclassing really doesnt enjoy splashing with this, locking people out of rebuilt capstones that are now worth taking is even worse. pure class is basically the only option, because no multiclass combo is truely effective work.

Level Gating Off: we get crazy situations where people splash single levels of another class, but get the capstone of that tree. this comes at an extreme price though. This problem though actually is a double edged sword, because it forces much better balancing of prestieges between classes, instead of making 1 rogue for Assassin 3+capstone a goto for building. it forces the devs to change and improve terrible prestieges like KotC/HotD or Warchanter for the better. This isnt too far off from one situation that already happens in game, the Fighter 18/9 / Caster 2/1 Elf/Helf Arcane Archer

My Vote: Level Gating off, because it forces better game design

other issues:

In terms of the prestieges, we will have:

Fighter: Kensai (Basically Exotic Weapon Master), Stalwart Defender (Unraced Dwarven Defender), Purple Dragon Knight (Buffer, kinda a left field prestiege, id much rather a combat maneuver guy)
Barbarian: Occult Slayer (not bad, but i dont see how much value a dedicated caster killer could bring though), Frenzied Berserker (OP), Ravager (From the sounds of it, badass)
Paladin: Defender of Siberys (Dwarven Defender again), Hunter of the Dead (Better then its PnP counterpart in some ways, but terrible), Knight of the Challice (should have HotD merged with it)
Monk: Ninja Spy (more stealth, more sneak), Shintao (nothing new here), Heshen Mystic (no idea)
Wizard: Palemaster (necromancer, needs better minions), Archmage (Spell DCs, WOO), Wild Mage (Crazy damage)
Cleric: Radiant Servant (super healer), Warpriest (melee Anti-undead/outsider), Exorcist (Spellcaster Warmage)
Sorc: Elemental Savant (woo), Acolyte of the Skin (Survivability?)
FVS: Beacon of Hope (Healz), Angel of Vengeance (Tank), Divine Avenger (Offense)
Ranger: Tempest (more DW), Arcane Archer (doing fine), Deepwood Sniper (needs sneak attack, other boosts)
Rogue: Assassin (OP), Rogue Mechanic (needs better crossbow incentives), Theif Acrobat (needs to be better)
Bard: Warchanter (Needs better everything), Virtuoso (good), Spellsinger (good)
Artificer: Battle Engineer (needs to be finished), Runecaster (UMD focused?), Hominiculous Master (Do we really like the dog that much?)

[Koechophe]

In particular, will the enhancment redo help arcane archer at all as a PRE? I feel that in order to end up dealing meaningful damage, you almost have to class out of ranger, which seems rediculous.

In addition, the PRE itself is (early levels) about as powerful as an artifacers added damage from a rune arm. Will that form of ranged damage in general get any love?

[HatsuharuZ]

Artificer: Battle Engineer (needs to be finished), Runecaster (UMD focused?), Hominiculous Master (Do we really like the dog that much?)

Well, to be fair, the "holy trinity" of an Artificer is UMD/equipment usage, ranged dps and pets. And the dog is quite useful since it can draw aggro to itself and away from it's master. Furthermore, it can be controlled in the same way as a hireling. It can be useful so long as you know when to use it.

It would be nice to see some of what the devs are thinking/planning, I think. We seem to be discussing ourselves in circles here...

:P

[Failedlegend]

Artificer: Battle Engineer (needs to be finished), Runecaster (UMD focused?), Hominiculous Master (Do we really like the dog that much?)

Actually it's Battle Engineer, Runic Champion & Master Maker unless there's been a recent name change

The simplest explanations (based on assumptions) I can think of would be:

Battle Engineer - Fairly Straight forward...you make things die.

Runic Champion - Focuses mostly on rune arm usage will likely be the best for Melee Arty's although it may be their offensive casting PrE as well

Master Maker - UMD, Crafting and Construct..will likely have bonuses to construct essence if the Devs stick to their current plans (otherwise it would be in the "Arty" Tree in the general section)

[Phemt81]

Whatever! Let me get kensei + frenzy + defender of syberis and then we'll see those CASTERS CRY !!! MUhahuahuahuahuauh (very EVIL laugh mode)

-i am just kidding, if you play a caster there is no intention to harass you, trust me-

[Glenalth]

In particular, will the enhancment redo help arcane archer at all as a PRE? I feel that in order to end up dealing meaningful damage, you almost have to class out of ranger, which seems rediculous.

In addition, the PRE itself is (early levels) about as powerful as an artifacers added damage from a rune arm. Will that form of ranged damage in general get any love?

It really depends on what enhancements they add/modify/delete, but in theory the Ranger as an archer should be buffed due to having access to Arcane Archer and Deepwood Sniper simultaneously. Though it may be a tough balancing act with wanting those two trees plus Tempest and racials.

[Failedlegend]

Well I finally obtained a new monitor cable so my screen is no longer blueish so I cleaned up my Enhancement UI Mock-up and added in recent changes.

So I've used my Dwarven Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2 (PM2/SD1/Hybrid?) as an example. Notes about each Tab Below image....oh and ignore the fact that it says Elf on the racial tab. :P

Note: The order of the tabs is mostly random...for ease of new players a certain order may be best (just don't ask me what that is :P) but to me it's honestly doesn't matter

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg

Note: Alot of the below statements are based on Forumites/my own suggestions very little is based off of anything the Devs have said mostly because they've said so little and because most of what they've said is fairly vague and probably out of date at this point

Racial Tab

- Contains any racial enhancements (ie. Human Versatility,Halfling Companion, Dwarven Constitution,etc.)

- The "Free Bonuses" are the Racial PrEs (ie. Talentia Halfling or Bladesinger Elf) they may be absent during initial Enhancement launch if Devs can't find time to make them (It's already a big undertaking to redo the enhancement systems so it's understandable... anyways see Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4363775&postcount=3969) for my racial PrE suggestions)

- Has a dropdown menu allowing you to choose alternate PrEs if availible ie. Reforged or Juggernaut..you may also opt out if you wish by choosing <None>

- Has a variable enhancement line based on sub race (ie. Gold Dwarf, Shield Dwarf, Duergar,etc.)

- This tab uses Augmentation Points (currently known as Action Points)

- Level gating is based off character level (The "Favored Class System" has no effect on this)


General Tab

- Contains any enhancements that are core to the characters classes (IOW anything that isn't specific to PrEs...some examples include Spell damage lines and monk stances)

- Uses general points which are gained at every character level (whatever amount the devs deem balanced)

- Does not have any "Free Bonuses"

- Uses Class Level for level gating (can be reduced by the "Favored Class" system ie. My Dwarf would be considered 2 levels higher for fighter...Humans/H-Elves would be considered 1 Lvl higher for any Level gating)

- Has a separate Side-tab for each class

- Any non-racial stat boosts are put here (can only take one of each stat) they are renamed as Mighty Strength, Incredible Intelligence,etc. once taken in one Class it becomes greyed out in the other (a Barb/Fighter who takes Mighty Strength in Barb will see it greyed out in the Fighter tab) viewing the tool tip will have a short explanation of why it's not available.


Prestige Tab

- Uses Augmentation points

- Has a Side-tab for every PrE you have available to you

- Can spend AP in every PrE if you wish

- Can only choose 3 Tabs in which you gain the "Free Bonuses" from (see red checks in boxes) you can choose less is you wish...even none (A few people were upset that they were forced to take PrEs can't hurt to put this in)

- The side-tabs shown are (In-order from top to bottom) Archmage, Palemaster, Wild Mage, Kensai, Stalwart Defender, Purple Dragon Knight, Assassin, Acrobat, Mechanic and Hybrids

- The hybrid tab works like every other tab except that there's an extra dropdown menu allowing you to change to any Hybrid PrEs (It defaults to <None>) but you will be unable to spend any points until you meet the requirements (See Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4360097&postcount=3912) for info on Hybrid Pre-Reqs) You may only have one Hybrid PrE at a time. (The Icon on the side tab changes to reflect the chosen Hybrid PrE) this may also be absent during initial release of the new enhancement system due to time constraints (which again is understandable...just don't forget :D)

- Should have about 60AP of worthwhile enhancements to take in each PrE Tree (I would like 80 each but think that's an unrealistic to expect the devs to do that at least now during the initial release see Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4277561&postcount=3116) for some good enhancement examples)

- Use Class level to determine access (can be reduced by the "Favored Class" system ie. My Dwarf would be considered 2 levels higher for Kensai, Stalwart and Purple Dragon Knight...Humans/H-Elves would be considered 1 Lvl higher for any Level gating)


Companion Tab (Not Shown)

- Not shown as is not currently applicable to example build and will only show up if you have access to companions (to avoid confusion for new players)

- Contains a Tab for each companion you have access to (ie. A Druid/Arty would have his Construct & Animal Companion)

- Uses Class for level gating

- Uses Companion Points (each companion relies on class level for these..IOW with a Druid12/Arty8 the Animal Companion would have more CP at Cap)

- Will be the Tab used for Arcane Familiars (Wiz,etc.), Animal Companions (ie. Druid/Ranger), Constructs (Ie. Arty), Palemaster Minions and many more.

[airavon]

Snip

^ This. I especially like the hybrid PrE idea. Wild mage/Purple Dragon Knight/Eldritch Knight= A gish who can turn allies into a barrel or buff them. Win.

[bigolbear]

nice mockup failed legend very nice.

Personly I think of the general tab as being 1 tab for all classes - and containing abilites I feel all adventurers may want to enhance, but im also totaly fine with your proposal here.

[Failedlegend]

^ This. I especially like the hybrid PrE idea. Wild mage/Purple Dragon Knight/Eldritch Knight= A gish who can turn allies into a barrel or buff them. Win.

Thanks :D ...and yes that would be awesome...ok everyone gather for an empowered Haste....whoops Dwizitttt is now a barrel...the quest just got a bit easier lol


nice mockup failed legend very nice.

Personly I think of the general tab as being 1 tab for all classes - and containing abilites I feel all adventurers may want to enhance

I thought of that but for depending on how many core enhancements each class has it would likely get way to crowded for a single UI Window.

I suppose a checkbox that "folds out" the UI so you can see all three class Trees at once...for people who don't have puny monitors like myself lol.




but im also totaly fine with your proposal here.

:D Here's hoping the devs are still paying attention (since mournlands has been activated)

Sidenote: This thread is now officially 200 Pages long

[Aelonwy]

http://i365.photobucket.com/albums/oo93/Failedlegend/EnhancementMock-up.jpg


This^ is what I've been hoping the devs would come up with or go "hey thats brilliant" but they seem so glued to their own agenda... I sadly think this will be ignored. :(

[Failedlegend]

This^ is what I've been hoping the devs would come up with or go "hey thats brilliant"
]
Heh thanks I tried to incorparate suggestions from everyone (I favored my own just a smidge :P)


they seem so glued to their own agenda... I sadly think this will be ignored. :(

At the begining of this thread I was VERY excited...I mean...the community...US...WE get to shape this.

Now I just feel likewhen the devs said "Give us you feedback, were here to listen" they really meant "Talk alot about this so it becomes well known"

[Silverleafeon]

4E did have hybrid character options.
But 4E was a lot, lot more restricted in multiclassing than 3E.

However hybrid does seem interesting, not sure how to implement it.

The devs are listening and working and talking.

We are just ssssssooooooo excited about it, this thread zzzzoooooooommmmmsssss....

[Yaga_Nub]

... Lots of stuff....

Is there a really good reason for having general points and augmentation points?

Personally, I don't think so but maybe I'm missing something.

[Failedlegend]

Is there a really good reason for having general points and augmentation points?

Personally, I don't think so but maybe I'm missing something.

Well when the discussion of adding a general tab the main reasoning against it was having to enigineer a way to "siphon" points from the general tab into the PrEs increasing the "total points spent" because without that the "general" enhancements will likely be ignored unless the PrE bonuses are too weak...which is it's own bad thing. This would kind of defeat the purpose of reinventing the enhancement system.

Think about it this way if the Arty Pet used your AP to gain it's bonus as opposed to it's own points you'd be far less likely too spend as much points in it...if any at all.

So my question is, why not? Am I missing something crazy?

[Aelonwy]

Is there a really good reason for having general points and augmentation points?

Personally, I don't think so but maybe I'm missing something.

The reason a general tab seems a necessity to me is because I cannot agree with arbitrarily pasting general enahncements into PrEs.

Lets give some examples, now I do not know that these will be with which specific PrE but lets just try and guess shall we?

Some cleric general enhancements for instance:
Improved Turning --- Probably in Exorcist
Extra Turning --- Probably in Exorcist
Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery --- Maybe Radiant Servant

Now I'm basing those guesses off Exorcist sounding like its versus undead but those are all enhancments I take on my cleric, the improved only because it is currently required by Radiant Servant for some unknown reason. Now if I had to I could do without the extra turning but if Wand and scroll mastery ended up in another PrE tree it kind of locks in my choices without giving me any real choices at all.

Ok lets check out Bard.
Lingering Song --- Idk guessing Virtuoso
Inspired Attack --- Warchanter
Inspired Damage --- Warchanter
Wand and Scroll Mastery ---(again) guessing Spellsinger

Idk about you but if these general enhancments that any and just about every bard would want are spread out into all three bard trees.... where exactly do we have a choice? in trees I mean?

Ok so lets look at rogue.
Improved Trapsense --- Mechanic
Sneak Attack Training --- Assassin
Sneak Attack Accuracy --- Assassin
Rogue Skill Boost --- Mechanic
Rogue Haste Boost --- guessing Acrobat?

Now you may not want all of these but I use them. I'm guessing others will be in the same boat. This 3tree thing looks to deny me many of the choices I enjoy now not only making it almost impossible to multiclass, its going to be pretty darn difficult to take advantage of any racial PrE as well.

The thing is none of these enhancments were previously tied to any particular PrE they were open to all in that class, going forward this does not look to be the case and its feels arbitrary and unnecessary.

[Yaga_Nub]

Well when the discussion of adding a general tab the main reasoning against it was having to enigineer a way to "siphon" points from the general tab into the PrEs increasing the "total points spent" because without that the "general" enhancements will likely be ignored unless the PrE bonuses are too weak...which is it's own bad thing. This would kind of defeat the purpose of reinventing the enhancement system.

Think about it this way if the Arty Pet used your AP to gain it's bonus as opposed to it's own points you'd be far less likely too spend as much points in it...if any at all.

So my question is, why not? Am I missing something crazy?

Yes, you're missing the fact that whether they are called apples, oranges or points, there is still just a limited number and forcing some to only be spent on general enhancements or class/PrE enhancements they are still augmentations to your character. We've had the same name for years and have successfully used them this whole time so I don't see the need for two separate names without an exceeding good reason. I still haven't seen that reason yet.


The reason a general tab seems a necessity to me is because I cannot agree with arbitrarily pasting general enahncements into PrEs.

Lets give some examples, now I do not know that these will be with which specific PrE but lets just try and guess shall we?

Some cleric general enhancements for instance:
Improved Turning --- Probably in Exorcist
Extra Turning --- Probably in Exorcist
Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery --- Maybe Radiant Servant

Now I'm basing those guesses off Exorcist sounding like its versus undead but those are all enhancments I take on my cleric, the improved only because it is currently required by Radiant Servant for some unknown reason. Now if I had to I could do without the extra turning but if Wand and scroll mastery ended up in another PrE tree it kind of locks in my choices without giving me any real choices at all.

Ok lets check out Bard.
Lingering Song --- Idk guessing Virtuoso
Inspired Attack --- Warchanter
Inspired Damage --- Warchanter
Wand and Scroll Mastery ---(again) guessing Spellsinger

Idk about you but if these general enhancments that any and just about every bard would want are spread out into all three bard trees.... where exactly do we have a choice? in trees I mean?

Ok so lets look at rogue.
Improved Trapsense --- Mechanic
Sneak Attack Training --- Assassin
Sneak Attack Accuracy --- Assassin
Rogue Skill Boost --- Mechanic
Rogue Haste Boost --- guessing Acrobat?

Now you may not want all of these but I use them. I'm guessing others will be in the same boat. This 3tree thing looks to deny me many of the choices I enjoy now not only making it almost impossible to multiclass, its going to be pretty darn difficult to take advantage of any racial PrE as well.

The thing is none of these enhancments were previously tied to any particular PrE they were open to all in that class, going forward this does not look to be the case and its feels arbitrary and unnecessary.

That's a great post but it didn't answer what I was really getting at.

Why do we need two different names for something that has only had one name the entire time we've at the system? Doesn't that just make things more complicated than it has to be; even if it's only the tiniest bit more complicated?

PS Action Points are a pretty outlandish name for something that isn't really an action. :)

[Aelonwy]

That's a great post but it didn't answer what I was really getting at.

Why do we need two different names for something that has only had one name the entire time we've at the system? Doesn't that just make things more complicated than it has to be; even if it's only the tiniest bit more complicated?

PS Action Points are a pretty outlandish name for something that isn't really an action. :)

I think between the two of us it was answered but maybe not as clearly as it should have been. I was trying to demonstrate the necessity of a a general enhancment tab/tree and Failed was probably trying to explain how the devs have so far indicated that you must spend x number of points in a tree to unlock the bonus PrE effects.

Therefor if we only get the 80 AP that we get today and there is anywhere from 60-80 AP possible per tree requring that you spend at least 41 AP to get the capstone of a single tree (more in the racial PrE tree) than there simply isn't enough AP for general enhancments to be seperated from the PrEs... except that I was demonstrating how arbitrarily tying general enhancements to the PrE's negates choice or severely curtails choice. Its a catch22. And assuming we maintain only the 80 AP we have today this is the catch22 the devs were probably examing when they decided to shoe-horn general enhancments into the PrE's.

Allowing us to earn 2 types of points to be spent in different ways... one for general enhancments, one for PrE's only, would give an alternate solution out of the Catch22. (This is done for arty's where they spend AP on their own enhancements while earning points to spend only on their pet as well.) Now the catch here would be for devs to determine exactly what should be put in the general tab versus the PrEs, how many general points it would be sensible to allow us to earn, and how fast we could earn them, ie # per level.

Another alternative would be to somehow allow us to determine for ourselves what points spent would apply to which PrE. That is if there were some way for us to put a check on a PrE tree and spend our points on our general enhancments but earmark them for a particular PrE tree for the bonuses.

Hope that explained it better.

[Aesop]

bah just add an extra point at level up then don't worry about it. :D

99 AP here we come :)

Aesop

[Failedlegend]

bah just add an extra point at level up then don't worry about it. :D

99 AP here we come :)

Aesop

Than people would just spend 99 points in PrE the idea is that we don't "lose out" on general enhancements or PrE enhancements but people can't abuse it to shift the scales into one or the other.

[Aesop]

Than people would just spend 99 points in PrE the idea is that we don't "lose out" on general enhancements or PrE enhancements but people can't abuse it to shift the scales into one or the other.

So you have some of the general enhancements actually be worthwhile or as optional requirements for certain PrE enhancements.

Example

you place the Stat Enhancements in General and leave people to determine which ones they want.

All the Skill Enhancements go there too.

Certain Stat or Skill Enhancements are prerequisites for certain Enhancements within another Tree. Not as requirements to get to the tree itself but certain powerful enhancements may indeed need something from the general tree.


OR

you could take that extra AP and have it ONLY apply to General Enhancements. let the original 80 go where ever and those new 19 are General Only.

something along those lines anyway.

Aesop

[Aashrym]

bah just add an extra point at level up then don't worry about it. :D

99 AP here we come :)

Aesop

That's basically what free PrE's for points spent gives us. Currently 3 tiers and a capstone costs 10 AP and that would be included in the new system. Adding more break points at 5, 15, and 25 points add more free AP worth of enhancements. Changing the costs from 1,2,3,4 spend on tiers to 1,1,1,1 increases this. We should have more AP to spend based on the info already provided.

If there were to be a general tab I would be more curious on which class the general tab comes from in the case of multiclassing.

[Aelonwy]

If there were to be a general tab I would be more curious on which class the general tab comes from in the case of multiclassing.

If I were designing it, then I would make it so as you multiclass more enhancments show up in the general tab. That is if you stay pure your general tab may look abit sparse, but if you multi then some new enhancments show up. You would still be limited by level in said class but you might have a handful of new choices appear.

Note: I have no code experience whatsoever. I have to have my hubby make my computer work at times, so this is pure imagination on my part.

[kingfisher]

That's basically what free PrE's for points spent gives us.

If there were to be a general tab I would be more curious on which class the general tab comes from in the case of multiclassing.

except the free stufff from pre's is stuff chosen and given by turbine, not the same as letting the players choose and use their own ap's. free stuff is great, but the free stuff is not the stuff you want, your still limited.

the whole point of the general tab is to allow mc toons the same freedoms they enjoy today, so the general tab should hold general enh from all the classes chosen by that toon.

[Aashrym]

except the free stufff from pre's is stuff chosen and given by turbine, not the same as letting the players choose and use their own ap's. free stuff is great, but the free stuff is not the stuff you want, your still limited.

the whole point of the general tab is to allow mc toons the same freedoms they enjoy today, so the general tab should hold general enh from all the classes chosen by that toon.

That isn't so different as now. Players choose the PrE and the benefits the PrE provides are chosen by the dev team. Players will still be choosing which PrE they want by spending points in the appropriate tree. It still looks like it frees up AP.

[Quetzacoala]

This has gotten way too complicated to me, to the point where I do not even understand what is being discussed.

However, I would like to put my personal opinion out there, which I hope will be addressed in the expansion... I do not care what is done to the game provided rangers and paladins get some love.

[underlordone]

I just want to know is if I multie class? Will I be able to take both classes enhancement lines like. Ranger AA + the dex bonus from ranger class. Wiz archmage the int bonus from class.


Well might as well show build so that I know if this is still going to work

ranger 7
Rouge 1
wiz 12

AA ranger enhancement half elf
ranger enhancement for fav em and dex bonus and feats
rouge for traps
wiz for cc and added damage


I do have the gear to pull off build with good dc. Most epics like tide turns and prey elite pez king :) even offer of blood did not have a prob with granted till tr I did die alot due to low hp. But still want this build to be able to work. Sorry for not posting more details on build but still worken on it as new items are added and enhancements. Let me know if this tree is going to kill this build that I had fun playing for long time