Gimped Bow or Gimped Repeater?

[C-Dog]

I'm hoping that if anyone knows how to get "some' dps out of a few feats, it will be this crowd. And it's a work-in-progress - once I have your input on this, I'll know better where I'm going with the rest of it.

I'm playing around with a high Charisma build party buffer - details aren't finalized, and for this question aren't important. (And I know the first thing many will say is "Without details, we can't provide detailed answers" - but the suggestions I'm seeking will feed back into those "details", so it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg conundrum.)

The bottom line is that it's based off of high-Charisma Human Bard 16/X(/?), and will only have 3rd level Feat and any dips for martial Feats/abilities for itself and the party. So, probably(?) Fighter and one other class, and then Feats at 12th, amd 15th (and possibly 18th, tho' that may be Bard-land again). Character could have a 14 Str and/or Dex - but after high Charisma and Con, ability points are thin.


My goal here is for the toon to only be badly gimped and not a completely useless piker when it comes to dps. That is, after the buffs, after the songs, once the combat starts and it's not healing-time for a few seconds... or when soloing... how can it contribute to damage? It does what it does first and it does it well, and then it does other stuff adequately - and dps got left standing when the music stopped - and that brings us here.


So, with something this squishy, I'm thinking... gotta go Ranged. And, to my newbie mind, that means either a Ranger dip and gimped bow, or a gimped Repeater build (but I don't have Artificer, sadly) (of course). (Did I mention "gimped" in the subject line?)

So, with a non-optimal BAB and only those few feats, where's my best money? Would Rogue and some sneak attack fit in anywhere? (SA works at close ranges, right? Rogue would be helpful for lower-level reasons, but hardly a dealbreaker.)

Or, with this much gimpage, is it just a wasted effort, and will only hit on a 20 anyway at higher levels? (Or is that not all that unusual for some characters?)

(I'm leaning toward SpellSinger, but WarChanter is a possibility if that matters. Not a dealbreaker at this point in the planning process. The goal, if possible, is to use these last feats and levels, by themselves, to become more low-level survivable and more party-friendly.)

[Memek]

"Buffer" isnt a worthy role by itself. It comes natural to any Bard. Your prime role has to be something else, melee, heals or casting, to your taste.

Arti Repeater use could be decent, dont know. But you dont have it anyways.

Bow use requires a ton of feats to even reach the potential to be somewhat relevant and i dont think you have the feats to spare - basically, bow damage is relevant if you hit a bunch of monsters with IPS or have Manyshot running. I dont think you can fit even one of those in. Realistically, considering that you arent always hitting several monsters and will have issues hitting things while Manyshotting (-8 attack or somesuch) you'd want all of IPS, MS, Bow Strength and Slayer Arrows to not be a complete joke.

But good news is, just because you have 16 levels of Bard doesnt mean that you are super-squishy and need to stay ranged. Maybe i missed it in your OP why this characters would have to run and hide instead of stand and fight.

So, what to do with a Bard...

Guildie of mine CCs eDA with his Bard which i find very impressive but i suppose there are a lot of past lives behind that. Caster Bard could be a nice spec, but of course killing power and thus soloing will suffer, and for tough stuff it probably would need to be fueled by a bunch of past lives (but without those, you could still CC easier stuff and just heal in tough stuff).
Otherwise, some kind of 2HF melee as usual. Dont discard your heals though.

Spell singer seems much more useful in the current state of the game, and noone says Spellsingers arent allowed to smash things with an axe.

[C-Dog]

For healing it'll have Maximize. And Extend for buffs. As I said, the bard stuff - that's not the issue.

And I think I'd prefer SS - but mention WC due to the better TAB songs. If that helps the cutpoint.

Yeah, 2WF is always an option. The problem is that my twitch-fu is not strong - I've tried a melee build (dwarf Ftr/Barb), and it seems that once in a serious melee I'm always facing the wrong way, or running past the mobs, or swinging where they were a moment ago, or chasing them around as they chase the mage or other characters, who then kill them just as I arrive. Pretty tragic, I can only imagine how it looks to the other players. /light match :(

But I haven't played MMO's that much, so I'm hoping (praying) that will get better with a little practice. But until then, I figured that ranged would be less twitch-intensive and allow me time to work on the other.

That's really the only reason (but it seems a good one to me).

[ferrite]

The problem is that my twitch-fu is not strong - I've tried a melee build (dwarf Ftr/Barb), and it seems that once in a serious melee I'm always facing the wrong way, or running past the mobs, or swinging where they were a moment ago, or chasing them around as they chase the mage or other characters, who then kill them just as I arrive.

If that is the case then your only other option is ranged.


Or, with this much gimpage, is it just a wasted effort

I think so. If only you'd have taken Elf instead of Human it would have been an easier fix. Two levels of ranger for some good free ranged feats, and the Elf racial Pre AA, easy to qualify for with the open feat slot, would have fixed you right up. The Cha is a bit high for that, and not ideal stats, but less gimpage.

With Human and for this particular situation, I'd go full-out spellsinger or reroll. If not reroll, you'll probably want the epic dynastic falcata, the Cha based sword, but will need the proficiency feat for it.

[voodoogroves]

If that is the case then your only other option is ranged.



I think so. If only you'd have taken Elf instead of Human it would have been an easier fix. Two levels of ranger for some good free ranged feats, and the Elf racial Pre AA, easy to qualify for with the open feat slot, would have fixed you right up. The Cha is a bit high for that, and not ideal stats, but less gimpage.

With Human and for this particular situation, I'd go full-out spellsinger or reroll. If not reroll, you'll probably want the epic dynastic falcata, the Cha based sword, but will need the proficiency feat for it.

Epic Eyld Edge, rapier with which he'll be proficient, is the solid CHA option for general bardic use and a helluva lot easier to build if you're serious about melee.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Elyd_Edge

I know at least one bard (virt) who trivializes epics and usually has that and an epic cove Swashbuckler equipped; minimal feat investment ... but then again, you can take your time killing that virt-fascinated mob, he's not going to break easily and you can always OID them if they do.

[ferrite]

Epic Eyld Edge, rapier with which he'll be proficient, is the solid CHA option for general bardic use and a helluva lot easier to build if you're serious about melee.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Elyd_Edge

I know at least one bard (virt) who trivializes epics and usually has that and an epic cove Swashbuckler equipped; minimal feat investment ... but then again, you can take your time killing that virt-fascinated mob, he's not going to break easily and you can always OID them if they do.

Oh yea forgot about that sword! That's probably better since it frees up the feat slot.

[C-Dog]

If that is the case then your only other option is ranged.
Well, it's reassuring to know that at least I had made that conclusion correctly in my OP.

The reason I chose Human was 1) for the Human bumps to Charisma (the center of the original concept), b) for the extra Feat, and iii) for Human Versatilty - +5 to BAB, AC, Saves... other stuff... hard to pass up imo.

Elf would be a dealbreaker, unfortunately. For one, I feel I'd be breaking rule #1, which is to "design the toon to do one thing well, and then fit in other stuff" - and that "one thing" is Cha-based. ;) (I recognize there is such a thing as "diminishing returns" in the larger picture... but not for this character concept.)

Which leaves me with... bupkiss for ranged options, even with 3-4 feats? Just go TWF and hope the learning curve is steep? I KNOW he's going to be a 2nd-rate ranged - I just feel, with me at the controls, he'd be a 3rd-rate melee. :confused: At least this way he won't be a drain on the party's healing while I'm learning the ropes. :o

[learst]

This poster, unbongwah, has a few bardcher builds. You could try checking them out and see.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=295551

and then there is also this one by Sigtrent (which could be slightly outdated):
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=269669

Good luck!

[learst]

Bards are my favourite class, so while I"m not a thorough expert on it like some of the vets, here are some things I'd like to know (and for you to consider):

1. You mentioned that you'd like to go SS. Usually, it's better to go better to go pure on SS for the lvl 20 capstone enhancement. The other 2 PREs (WC and Virt) don't really need a high Cha.

2. If all you want to do is buff (by spells and song), then you really don't need to go SS, other than for the SP pool and SP regen song. Virtuoso is actually quite flexible as it doesn't have a feat prequisite (you can use Extra Song IV) to qualify. If you really do want to go for the SS PRE, then a 14 bard/X split would let you get the last lvl for the Inspire courage song increase. And you can take more lvls in other class for the extra feat.

3. You could consider Half-elfs, and the Ranger Dilletante which would allow you to go for a pure SS. This dilletante grants Lesser Bow Strength (up to +3 from Str), and I think you can take enhancements up to +5. This could be a possible consideration.

Hope this helps.

[Memek]

Just make a full caster Bard if you dont mind compromises in solo-ability. You'll be (nearly) unique, powerful, useful and dont embarass your character with pewpew. Ranged will never be decent.

[unbongwah]

Why do you want to make a CHA-based multiclassed bard in the first place? The main reason to go CHA-based on a bard is to max out your Enchantment DCs; but for that you're also better off staying pure. So you're either watering down your CC spells by MCing; or you're putting build pts into CHA which might be more usefully placed elsewhere (esp. if you want a bard which does ranged and/or melee DPS as well). This would seem to violate your own "do one thing well" rule.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Pure charisma based bard with 14 starting strength twitching a greatsword or falchion works totally great. No need to screw up your build by trying to include ranged.

If you were going to go ranged I'd suggest that a 6 arti splash is the only option for crossbows or something like 16 bard, 2 ranger, 2 fighter half-elf with rogue dilettante (or 2 rogue with ranger dilettante). To make either of these builds work though be prepared to make a significant investment into dexterity to qualify for ranged feats, going half assed on ranged just doesn't work (at least manyshot if not improved precise shot as well).

To be clear.
Requirements for reasonable bow DPS: Manyshot and Arcane Archer.
Requirements for reasonable xbow DPS: Artificer class or Mechanic I.

IPS is an amazing feat that I'd want on any ranged build and would only consider leaving it out of one or two that already has access to AoE damage (like a cleric/favoured soul arcane archer).

[C-Dog]

... You'll be (nearly) unique
LOL! From what I've read, I'm not sure that's a good thing! :p


... Ranged will never be decent.
And by "decent" you mean "even remotely functional"? Okay, I guess that was part of my question. What I didn't know was whether "a little" is just never going to be enough.


To be clear (since some seem to have missed these points in my rambling), I've got some lot of the character sketched out based on what little I've run so far, and from having read about 99% of what's on these forums about "bards" and "ranged".

So here are the dealbreakers:

Human
Max/(/High?) Charisma
Bard or Bard/multi (I like Bard 16 for 6th level spells, but not a dealbreaker)
Only available feats are at 3rd, 12th, 15th, and from any splashes (like Fighter/etc.)
SS/WC/Virtuoso/none of above - open (tho' I have to believe at least one of them is desirable...)

Beyond that, I'll admit I'm operating on newbie intuition - an admittedly dangerous foundation. :D

But I've also read that the best way to learn is to dive in and make mistakes and re-roll - certainly ample room for that on this character, that much even a blind newbie can see. :cool:

[wax_on_wax_off]

So here are the dealbreakers:

Human
Max/(/High?) Charisma
Bard or Bard/multi (I like Bard 16 for 6th level spells, but not a dealbreaker)
Only available feats are at 3rd, 12th, 15th, and from any splashes (like Fighter/etc.)
SS/WC/Virtuoso/none of above - open (tho' I have to believe at least one of them is desirable...)


With these caveats then stick with a great big stick (great sword, great axe, falchion or maul), start with 14 strength, maybe grab power attack and improved critical: slashing and have fun.

You don't need much to be decent in melee, just let your party members grab aggro and if something doesn't like you then hit it with Otto's (Ir)resistable Dance and keep swinging away. Learn how to twitch too for low AC mobs.

[Rogann]

With these caveats then stick with a great big stick (great sword, great axe, falchion or maul), start with 14 strength, maybe grab power attack and improved critical: slashing and have fun.

You don't need much to be decent in melee, just let your party members grab aggro and if something doesn't like you then hit it with Otto's (Ir)resistable Dance and keep swinging away. Learn how to twitch too for low AC mobs.

I have to decline on this advice my good friend.

[cru121]

Just make a full caster Bard if you dont mind compromises in solo-ability. You'll be (nearly) unique, powerful, useful and dont embarass your character with pewpew. Ranged will never be decent.

This seems to be the only option, given the restrictions. Caster bard. If you wish, you can carry a ranged weapon (e.g. a improved cursespewing great crossbow of improved destruction), but don't expect any DPS worth merit.

anyway, would you mind telling us why do you want high charisma for this build?

[wax_on_wax_off]

I have to decline on this advice my good friend.

***?

The Mississippi Queen II (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168293) is what I'm generally referring to. Max charisma, decent melee.

If you're "going to decline my advice" at least provide a reasoned argument for doing so, otherwise you just look ... bad.

[C-Dog]

If you're "going to decline my advice" at least provide a reasoned argument for doing so, otherwise you just look ... bad.
+1 - took the words right out of my mouth. (Well, maybe yours were a little more politik...) ;)

Rogann - so, what is your alternate view and advice?


...but don't expect any DPS worth merit.
There's a diff between "not worth merit" and "only hit on a 20". I stated several times I don't expect much from a non-melee build, but was hoping to contribute without diving into melee with a squishy character that might do more harm than good (by draining Spell Points for healing this toon's sorry ass - what was he thinkin' anyway?!)

Rather pew-pew than pike-pike or die-die.

But if the consensus is that a squard can survive as the 3rd man into a melee, then that's how it'll go. Alpha test is already out of the blocks and into Stormreach - couldn't quite solo Cannith Crystal on Elite (no hireling), but that's pro'ly my weak twitch-fu (felt like that was the case, rather than the design). We'll see...

By the way...


With these caveats then stick with a great big stick (great sword, great axe, falchion or maul)...
I've run a half-dozen characters thru favor runs, and haven't seen a single great sword, maul or falchion drop at those levels - are they far less common than graxes, or just at lower levels - or do we simply not care and just buy what we need?

[wax_on_wax_off]

+1 - took the words right out of my mouth. (Well, maybe yours were a little more politik...) ;)

Rogann - so, what is your alternate view and advice?


There's a diff between "not worth merit" and "only hit on a 20". I stated several times I don't expect much from a non-melee build, but was hoping to contribute without diving into melee with a squishy character that might do more harm than good (by draining Spell Points for healing this toon's sorry ass - what was he thinkin' anyway?!)

Rather pew-pew than pike-pike or die-die.

But if the consensus is that a squard can survive as the 3rd man into a melee, then that's how it'll go. Alpha test is already out of the blocks and into Stormreach - couldn't quite solo Cannith Crystal on Elite (no hireling), but that's pro'ly my weak twitch-fu (felt like that was the case, rather than the design). We'll see...

By the way...


I've run a half-dozen characters thru favor runs, and haven't seen a single great sword, maul or falchion drop at those levels - are they far less common than graxes, or just at lower levels - or do we simply not care and just buy what we need?

Any 2 handed weapon is fine, just have different ones for different situations.

[C-Dog]

<Nods>

Took Martial Prof:Graxe at 1st level (for obvious reasons), but will swap that out for a diff Feat before just 3rd when he'll have Master's Touch, and then it'll be gravy. (No reason to do so before as far as I could see, neh?)

Thanks for all the advice and opining, one and all!