Most over-rated equipment [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 08:43 AM

What makes you scratch your head wondering what in god's name people are doing offering 20 Reds and a Kidney for a scroll of? What piece of gear have you seen people literally lose their minds chasing that you just don't think is that good?

Two things come to my mind:

Red Scale Armor: gives extra DPS from the flaming burst on everything, two slots, looks pretty cool. Thing is . . . everything in this game that's hard to kill is either immune to fire or has enough resistance that this provides no additional DPS. Was the highest AC plate in the game but crystal cove changed that. So it's pretty much more DPS against trash, maybe melees can sneak a kill in before the FoD lands.

And the cost . . . it sure is heck ain't worth 20 reds considering what 20 reds will get you regarding other gear.

Marilith Chain: I personally don't think this was worth it even before update 9 . . . but seeker 10 with the removal of auto-crits and bosses having 80% fort is almost a cruel joke. Don't get me wrong . . . the base item is excellent, seeker 6 on the body frees up other slots. But the DPS difference between seeker 6 and seeker 10 . . . expecially now . . . is statistically insignificant. Was this ever worth the 20-30 reds people were paying for the scroll?

Thrudh

01-03-2012, 08:56 AM

Any sands epics...

I don't know why anyone runs those... The drop rate is so low, and the items are only meh. I can't wrap my head around the time cost ratio.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 09:01 AM

Any sands epics...

I don't know why anyone runs those... The drop rate is so low, and the items are only meh. I can't wrap my head around the time cost ratio.

The quests are a heck of a lot of fun though . . . EOoB is one of my favorites and I can even tolerate a Wiz King once in a while. But I don't know many people who plan on building any of those items as other stuff is just more achievable.

I remember we ran EOoB 3-4 times a day for about 3 weeks trying to get a bunch of people epic Spectral gloves . . . which now spend about 90% of the time not being worn as better items are now available in the glove slot.

That said a highly under-rated item is Vulkorum Fighting Leathers, and those are achievable as the shard drops pretty decently in OoB.

Syllph

01-03-2012, 09:14 AM

This armor for me is a mark of status. By my 10th life I literally had acquired just about every item you can find. Here was one item I didn't have. I had to have it. I ran eVon for months and months collecting the red scales. Found someone crazy enough to trade 20 whites for one red. Made the base white armor. More month until a guildy popped the red shard and chest-traded me.

Now I have the armor. I wear it from the time it takes me to go from the bank to put it on to the time it takes to get to house J to TR again. Nevertheless I am thoroughly pleased.

I'm sure some people actually use it (monks come to mind) but for me it was just one of those things I wanted I didn't have. Plain and simple.

Does it make me cool? nope. in fact it makes me look a little silly. Still, the feeling of finally completing it was reward enough. It gave me a goal in the game.

(Edit: it's kind of like getting a degree in philosophy. Completely useless, but it shows you are able to make an effort.)

Sarisa

01-03-2012, 09:15 AM

eChains, eADQ1, and eOOB are among the most fun to run epics around in a solid group. eOOB's drop rates aren't even that atrocious (took me 36 runs to get my Spectral seal, but it was definitely in the realm of bad luck there, and I did manage to pick up the parts to the dagger, leathers, and two shields during that time). Wiz King is also a blast for monks, casters (especially savants), and divines; and is a great renown source and good for picking up raid seals.

I personally would put some of the LoB Alchemical options in the "overrated" category. They're a boost, for sure, but most of their effects are very minor compared to the grind required.

PS. I love the Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers. Same attack bonus as the Epic Spectrals, a slightly lower than Tharnes sneak attack bonus, permanent fire resist after a raise/ship buffs running out, and two slots. They also look nice.

NostalithilDarkstar

01-03-2012, 09:20 AM

IMO greensteel items

dkyle

01-03-2012, 09:21 AM

While not as extreme a grind as those, I think Lorrik's set is not worth as much as people seem to think. Ardor clickies beat the set bonus, and only good things about the base items are the high blocking DR on the shield, and the efficient empower healing on the necklace. But if I were carrying a shield on a healer, I'd take Levik's over Lorrik's, and the efficient empower healing isn't worth a neck slot that could have a Torc in it, and it's craftable anyway.

Similar for the Glacier set, but at least the base items are better.

IMO greensteel items

Interesting. Because you think the grind is too much? Or you don't think they're as powerful as most think they are?

bartosy

01-03-2012, 09:23 AM

Battery

01-03-2012, 09:23 AM

ring of trollish regeneration

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 09:24 AM

While not as extreme a grind as those, I think Lorrik's set is not worth as much as people seem to think. Ardor clickies beat the set bonus, and only good things about the base items are the high blocking DR on the shield, and the efficient empower healing on the necklace. But if I were carrying a shield on a healer, I'd take Levik's over Lorrik's, and the efficient empower healing isn't worth a neck slot that could have a Torc in it, and it's craftable anyway.

Similar for the Glacier set, but at least the base items are better.

I've got a guildy who is still grinding for the Sov Rune of Glacial Assault. He has the savant belt and caster sticks, but he's obsessed.

Lorrik's is pretty horrid.

Some of the older named items are pretty pointless these days too, yet folks still seem to want them. Luckblades, for one. Ring of Feathers.

BurningDownTheHouse

01-03-2012, 09:25 AM

When you have everything else, you'll put a lot of effort into that extra 0.5% improvement.
That's all there is to it.

Qaliya

01-03-2012, 09:25 AM

IMO greensteel items

Huh? In what way are GS items overrated?

Malky

01-03-2012, 09:26 AM

Each and every 2-handers in game bar the e-sos, sadly...

dkyle

01-03-2012, 09:27 AM

dont forget that mari chain also got shatter +6/shatter +10 wich only compliments the crit bonus.

Yeah, if my Monk could wear them, I'd love to have the chain just for that. A even a +6 would really improve his success rate on Improved Sunder against the major bosses.

Most overrated item for me must be spellstoring ring.. wee 3 25 sp clickies.. that takes forever to cast + its impossible to make this item epic.. because the shards never ever drop.

I think there's a lot of nostalgia on this one. It's an iconic PnP item, and I believe it was the very first SP recovery item (well, technically tied with Torc, I guess, but surely the ring dropped first).

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 09:35 AM

I personally would put some of the LoB Alchemical options in the "overrated" category. They're a boost, for sure, but most of their effects are very minor compared to the grind required.

yes and no . . . the handwraps are very nice, the other weapons are nice.

An air/air off-hand weapon is fantastic, stunning 10 on a khopesh is ubber. In AO's DPS calc the lightning II main-hand with Air/Air off-hand out-DPSs dual light IIs. Third tier is nice to but they really are front loaded with most of the goodness coming in the first two tiers.

Regarding time . . . I don't think it's that bad. My AA has 10 completions, my fighter has 9, my other toons have a few each and I'm one martial cell away from crafting my second Tier II item. I don't think that's that bad of a grind.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 09:37 AM

I've got a guildy who is still grinding for the Sov Rune of Glacial Assault. He has the savant belt and caster sticks, but he's obsessed.

Lorrik's is pretty horrid.

Some of the older named items are pretty pointless these days too, yet folks still seem to want them. Luckblades, for one. Ring of Feathers.

Wait a tick . . . people still regard the levik's and lorrik's sets and not being garbage?

fuzzy1guy

01-03-2012, 09:39 AM

Muckbane. The most overrated item ever.

In half the time people take farming it. They could just level past ever seeing ooze again.

The glacier set gotta be up there too. Totally pointless.

Hobgoblin

01-03-2012, 09:40 AM

Wait a tick . . . people still regard the levik's and lorrik's sets and not being garbage?

yes and no - i love the levicks for leveling - extra ac is always nice - if not meaningful, the healing amp is good :) , and its a decent place to put your str item

but I wouldnt go out of my way to grind for it.

hob

somenewnoob

01-03-2012, 09:41 AM

Muckbane. The most overrated item ever.

In half the time people take farming it. They could just level past ever seeing ooze again.

Agreed. Especially since it's so easy to craft a true chaos everbright or something like that instead for oozes.

Never really understood that one. It's decent.....but meh. Not worth farming for.

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 09:44 AM

Wait a tick . . . people still regard the levik's and lorrik's sets and not being garbage?
Was in a hound the other day where the healer types were all hunting them up. Seriously. I was on one of my FVS and they specifically asked me what I was looking for ... because they were kinda worried too many folks would be rolling on them.

I can see some niche uses for the Levik's SET if you're still grinding out / working on other threat gear ... but not so much the Lorriks.

FuzzyDuck81

01-03-2012, 09:44 AM

dont forget that mari chain also got shatter +6/shatter +10 wich only compliments the crit bonus.

Most overrated item for me must be spellstoring ring.. wee 3 25 sp clickies.. that takes forever to cast + its impossible to make this item epic.. because the shards never ever drop.

i agree that marilith chain can be useful for some characters.. barbarians in frenzy with a much higher crit multiplier possibility will get considerably more mileage out of it.. something like up to 30 or so more damage on a crit vs. 8-12 of others?

spellstoring ring however.. well yeah the rareness of the epic from what i've heard can make it nasty, but for all these up & coming arties even the basic one is a 100% reliable minimum of 315sp free per rest, which is almost a major pot, and then the bauble too.. add into that the chance of not actually spending a charge so you can use it again.. thats a lot of potential extra spellpower there before having to resort to pots.

Sarisa

01-03-2012, 09:50 AM

Since Durks is one of the better experience quests in the harbour, you'll eventually end up with a fair number of Muckbanes just from normal experience non-farming runs. It's not something I'll farm, but I'll hold onto a couple of them to pass between alts/TR's for use in the harbour.

Crafted items have worse level requirements for most of the quests where you see Oozes (but they're still better for Rusties).

I wouldn't bother with the sets from HoX or VoD, but individual pieces can be excellent even today. Lorrik's Shield for arcanes with Arcane Casting Dexterity slotted somewhere (if you don't have an epic shield like a Kundarak). Levik's Defender for divines and tank oriented characters. Levik's Bracers for the healing amp, especially on a TR before you get your ToD rings. Glacier Bracers for the Fireshield proc. Tharnes Goggles speak for themselves.

elraido

01-03-2012, 09:51 AM

Muckbane. The most overrated item ever.

In half the time people take farming it. They could just level past ever seeing ooze again.

The glacier set gotta be up there too. Totally pointless.

Muckbane used to be one of the useful items in the game...back when the cap was 10. But back then, you could get one almost every run.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 09:55 AM

I wouldn't bother with the sets from HoX or VoD, but individual pieces can be excellent even today. Lorrik's Shield for arcanes with Arcane Casting Dexterity slotted somewhere (if you don't have an epic shield like a Kundarak). Levik's Defender for divines and tank oriented characters. Levik's Bracers for the healing amp, especially on a TR before you get your ToD rings. Glacier Bracers for the Fireshield proc. Tharnes Goggles speak for themselves.

every melee should have Tharnes set. The name of the game in end-game raiding is aggro control. The glasses and a DT rune are probably a better way to go for most though.

Templarion

01-03-2012, 09:55 AM

Carnifex: Just buy that holy weapon from AH already or make yourself even better using Cannith Crafting. I really don't understand the passion to this weapon.

And I agree with Muckbane. It's probably the most overrated - at least among new players.

Hobgoblin

01-03-2012, 09:58 AM

Thrudh

01-03-2012, 10:01 AM

Someone else said Ring of Feathers.

I never could understand people who would spend 300k plat because they couldn't stand to wait until level 5 or level 7 to put on their FF boots.

I think the GH armors are over-rated too... 20 dragon scales of a particular color usually means 40-50 Gianthold Tor runs... That's worse than most raids.

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 10:04 AM

Miow

01-03-2012, 10:04 AM

lets see an great-ax that crits like a falchion? At level 4? Yes totally overrated

hob

1..2...3...10 ko!

Soera

01-03-2012, 10:05 AM

Epic helm of frost. Ive seen people trading their whole life for it and I keep looking at it and can not figure why.

Hobgoblin

01-03-2012, 10:06 AM

+7 cha item= not bad
yellow slot = not bad
last part you need to make the abashai set = priceless

hob

dkyle

01-03-2012, 10:10 AM

Carnifex: Just buy that holy weapon from AH already or make yourself even better using Cannith Crafting. I really don't understand the passion to this weapon..

Compared to a +1 Holy Greataxe (which is ML4), a Carnifex (also ML4) starts to beat it at 20 base damage. That isn't much; with Power Attack, you only need 18 STR to reach that.

But average damage isn't actually everything at low level, because mob HP is low enough that it doesn't tell the whole story as far as expected hits per kill. With a high crit range, high crit multiplier weapon like the Carnifex, the chances of one-shotting a mob might be four times as high as a +1 Holy Greataxe.

FranOhmsford

01-03-2012, 10:15 AM

#1 MOST OVERRATED item in the game = Voice - Seriously this is just not needed at all. {Mantle on the other hand is nice}.

#2 Blood Stone {surprised no-one's mentioned this yet though it is nice to get one to stick on the ah while farming the Ring}.

Gianthold Armours? I didn't think anyone other than newbies to GH even bothered making these?

Ring of Feathers pricewise is overrated yes but it's a nice item to pick up {just wouldn't ever buy one}.

Anyone who believes Ring of Spell Storing is overrated please please please send me yours.

kurai_123

01-03-2012, 10:17 AM

Most overrated item for me must be spellstoring ring.. wee 3 25 sp clickies.. that takes forever to cast + its impossible to make this item epic.. because the shards never ever drop.

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb401/1zerohj/eross.jpg
One of my friends also has one so it definitely exist :)

As for the most overrated item, IMO it would have to be the Epic Jidz Tet'ka.Yes i can see it being useful for certain builds with the +8 armor and the slots. The bonus healing is nice in fire stance but overall I think its a pretty lame item, yet anyone with monk levels seems to desperately want this item. And most of the people i see farming for this item don't really care about the slots and don't use fire stance very often, if ever.

Thrudh

01-03-2012, 10:19 AM

the abashai set

Actually, what's so great about the abashai set? That one seems over-rated to me too...

If you are an AC-tank, I can see it, but I see plenty of other character types going for it... The individual pieces aren't that great... The cloak is about the only one I think that can really stand on it's own... Most of the other pieces take up slots with better options.

I'm pretty sure that most melees who go for this give up more than they gain to get that +3 STR.

Hobgoblin

01-03-2012, 10:20 AM

Thrudh

01-03-2012, 10:21 AM

i actually like the abashai set on a caster better then on a meele, but its a goal right :)

3 levels to evocation spells... That's affects a lot of damage spells, yes? Hmm...

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 10:22 AM

#1 MOST OVERRATED item in the game = Voice - Seriously this is just not needed at all. {Mantle on the other hand is nice}.

#2 Blood Stone {surprised no-one's mentioned this yet though it is nice to get one to stick on the ah while farming the Ring}.

5% XP . . . and NOT having to run Thernal to get it? +1 to saves and skill checks? Easy as hell to get? Doesn't belong on the list.

Bloodstone is 3.6+ damage a swing against a zero-fort target for a khopesh user (YMMV, depending on build), that's almost as good as a claw set. Now I know I called MC out for being over-rated because if it's cost, a Bloosstone's cost generally equals it's utility.

Ninety

01-03-2012, 10:24 AM

somenewnoob

01-03-2012, 10:24 AM

#2 Blood Stone {surprised no-one's mentioned this yet though it is nice to get one to stick on the ah while farming the Ring}.

Yeah I was thinking about the bloodstone too. It's a nice trinket, but there are other good options for a melee too and the time/plat to get one is too much IMO. AH bait if I ever pull one.

Especially since anybody can get a seeker cove hat for a non weapon seeker bonus.

NostalithilDarkstar

01-03-2012, 10:27 AM

Interesting. Because you think the grind is too much? Or you don't think they're as powerful as most think they are?

i think they are not an "absolute necessity" as everyone think.

i sold the only blank i ever made for 500k, i lmao so much

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 10:27 AM

Actually, what's so great about the abashai set? That one seems over-rated to me too...

If you are an AC-tank, I can see it, but I see plenty of other character types going for it... The individual pieces aren't that great... The cloak is about the only one I think that can really stand on it's own... Most of the other pieces take up slots with better options.

I'm pretty sure that most melees who go for this give up more than they gain to get that +3 STR.

Assuming the Cloak/bracers/gloves(or boots) combo . . .

+3 STR, +2 to-hit and damage if it evens you out

lots of slots, toughness, heavy fort, a stat or two. This is ubber.

+5 resistance

a Constant stream of lightning strikes . . .

+7 CON

+3 AC, and you know how much of an AC-ho I am (yet my highest AC guys doesn't have it . . .)

I'm sorry, this is NOT over-rated, it's appropriately rated for the cost. The scolls for the above will cost you between 8-10 reds and it is worth it.

Dragavon

01-03-2012, 10:28 AM

To me, the most overrated item in DDO is Minos Legens.

I made a couple myself when it was new and shiny, used them for a few weeks then started thinking that errm, I can find a more useful setup and put them in bank. Never looked back.

Yet I still frequently see Minos worn by lvl 20 characters. :confused:

Sarisa

01-03-2012, 10:29 AM

Blue Scale is a great levelling item for a caster, but it's not something I would really invest in too much now. There are far more options than there used to be, between Cove items and the Madness chain items. I have one, but it was from a long time ago before a lot of the newer stuff came out.

Elfcraft is also a decent caster and divine item for the low level requirement, and is far cheaper to make. The rest, on the otherhand, just don't do enough now to be worth using.

Prior to Cannith crafting, the only way besides a Ring of Feathers to get no-ML permanent Featherfall was getting lucky with a chain end reward list, like Waterworks, Sharn, or STK (and even then, it would most likely be boots). Now, it's fairly easy to find even a moderate level crafter to make a shard for you, if you despise the crafting grind yourself.

As for Carnifex, that still sadly eludes me. Going by the massive power increase I got on my Pali's TR when I switched from decent lootgen 2-handers to the SoS at level 10, Carnifex (with it's incredible crit profile like the SoS) would not be something I would consider over-rated for the level 4-12 range.

Ninety

01-03-2012, 10:30 AM

I'm sorry, this is NOT over-rated, it's appropriately rated for the cost. The scolls for the above will cost you between 8-10 reds and it is worth it.

what server are you on? I want to go there to sell Chrono scrolls.

oh Khyber, cloak is 3 reds, all the other abashi pieces are 1-2 each.

elraido

01-03-2012, 10:30 AM

#2 Blood Stone {surprised no-one's mentioned this yet though it is nice to get one to stick on the ah while farming the Ring}.

Anyone who believes Ring of Spell Storing is overrated please please please send me yours.

Bloodstone is a great item for melees. You have to remember, on a khopesh it is +18 to damage on a crit. Every 4th to 5th swing you get that extra 18. That is nothing to sneeze at.

Ring of spell storing. Back in the day it was a good item. Spell point pools were MUCH less, no ddo store pots, no green steel etc. Now it is relegated to almost not being worthwhile. Yes you can make them epic, but like stated before, it is VERY though to come across all the components for it. You are better off crafting a concordiant opp, getting a torq, and farming a bauble....because odds are you will get all those WELL before you get all the ing for an epic ss ring. Heck, you could have a concordiant opp weapon and item made by that time as well.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 10:35 AM

what server are you on? I want to go there to sell Chrono scrolls.

oh Khyber, cloak is 3 reds, all the other abashi pieces are 1-2 each.

3 + 4 = 7 which is less than 8-10 reds. They teach math on Khyber? :)

3 reds for a cloak and about 2 for the others is the normal going price on Ghallanda as well.

FranOhmsford

01-03-2012, 10:36 AM

5% XP . . . and NOT having to run Thernal to get it? +1 to saves and skill checks? Easy as hell to get? Doesn't belong on the list.
.

OK I just had to get it out of my system as I loathe Delera's - The loot {apart from Carnifex and I actually prefer the Antique anyway} is truly terrible. Pts 2 and 4 are superb xp BUT I'm just fed up of hearing how everyone MUST have this pack.

The Bloody Crypt {Necro 1}, Shadow Knight and Shadow Crypt {Necro 2}, VoN 3, Escort the Expedition {Threnal} are all superb xp too.
Nobody tells people they must have these packs.
VoN barely gets a mention surprisingly when people ask what packs to buy.
The forums are replete with people expecting you to have Silver Flame pots yet these same people tell you not to bother with Necro 1-3 - Uh What?
Threnal has it's problems {lots of em} BUT I actually have fun running it {well apart from Hold for Reinforcements of course}.
Oh and Retribution is severely underrated.

Ninety

01-03-2012, 10:39 AM

3 + 4 = 7 which is less than 8-10 reds. They teach math on Khyber? :)

3 reds for a cloak and about 2 for the others is the normal going price on Ghallanda as well.

do they teach reading skills on Ghallanda. :) <-- smilie face to make it seem less mean. that's why I said I want to sell Chrono scrolls on whatever server he's on.

sweez

01-03-2012, 10:42 AM

Sub-t sets.

LeLoric

01-03-2012, 10:42 AM

Two things come to my mind:

Red Scale Armor: gives extra DPS from the flaming burst on everything, two slots, looks pretty cool. Thing is . . . everything in this game that's hard to kill is either immune to fire or has enough resistance that this provides no additional DPS. Was the highest AC plate in the game but crystal cove changed that. So it's pretty much more DPS against trash, maybe melees can sneak a kill in before the FoD lands.

And the cost . . . it sure is heck ain't worth 20 reds considering what 20 reds will get you regarding other gear.

Marilith Chain: I personally don't think this was worth it even before update 9 . . . but seeker 10 with the removal of auto-crits and bosses having 80% fort is almost a cruel joke. Don't get me wrong . . . the base item is excellent, seeker 6 on the body frees up other slots. But the DPS difference between seeker 6 and seeker 10 . . . expecially now . . . is statistically insignificant. Was this ever worth the 20-30 reds people were paying for the scroll?

I don't mind these so much as it's really hard to get any sort of dps from the armor slot.

I think epic marichain actually got better recently with the +10 shatter on it. That extra 4 seeker is A fairly significant boost to people using high crit profile weapons like khopesh and Esos. 80% fort is a myth. Sure the mob starts there but throw in a fs and a someone with imp sunder and you are usually at or under the 50% that we all had to deal with recently. Especially when that person with imp sunder is wearing an epic mari chain and his sunders land every swing.

When it works red armor is really really good too. Problem is people usually have spent so much effort into making either that they think they need to wear it full time. Theres a time and place for it. And sure it takes 20 reds to make but the only reason reds are so much is people want to make this armor. It's not like you can use them elsewhere. For stalwarts or dos this is still tied with the cove armor for highest ac but it does provide an extra slot so there's some use there. And fire specced casters are starting to become more useful at least as a 2nd or even 3rd element again with less devils at end game and this armor is nice for them although the new challenge cloak is probably better here.

dkyle

01-03-2012, 10:42 AM

i think they are not an "absolute necessity" as everyone think.

Nothing is an "absolute necessity". But "bang for your buck" at end-game? LitII, Conc-Op, and a 45 HP item? About as good as it gets.

i sold the only blank i ever made for 500k, i lmao so much

At least before the mats started dropping in end-rewards, I'd have gladly paid about that. 500k might be a little high, but not by much.

What are you getting with that 500k plat that you think is so great?

To me, the most overrated item in DDO is Minos Legens.

I made a couple myself when it was new and shiny, used them for a few weeks then started thinking that errm, I can find a more useful setup and put them in bank. Never looked back.

Yet I still frequently see Minos worn by lvl 20 characters. :confused:

What are you replacing it with that's anywhere near as easy to get? Every single one of my characters has one, and I don't regret it for a moment. Only my Barb doesn't wear it all the time; he swaps it in when tanking, for the extra HP. I'd only take it off the others if I could slot Toughness in an epic item.

LeLoric

01-03-2012, 10:47 AM

every melee should have Tharnes set. The name of the game in end-game raiding is aggro control. The glasses and a DT rune are probably a better way to go for most though.

Why waste two slots for aggro control?

If you need the sneak attack item there sure wear tharnes goggles. If worried about aggro use the new goggles with treason they take one slot and reduce more aggro.

FranOhmsford

01-03-2012, 10:48 AM

Bloodstone is a great item for melees. You have to remember, on a khopesh it is +18 to damage on a crit. Every 4th to 5th swing you get that extra 18. That is nothing to sneeze at.

Ring of spell storing. Back in the day it was a good item. Spell point pools were MUCH less, no ddo store pots, no green steel etc. Now it is relegated to almost not being worthwhile. Yes you can make them epic, but like stated before, it is VERY though to come across all the components for it. You are better off crafting a concordiant opp, getting a torq, and farming a bauble....because odds are you will get all those WELL before you get all the ing for an epic ss ring. Heck, you could have a concordiant opp weapon and item made by that time as well.

I'd rather not have to buy anymore pots from the ddostore - that's my goldseal rogue store.
Torc - does this drop in Wiz King or in ADQ? - Can't stand Wiz King.
Bauble - Not done any quests in Amrath yet - Just slayer.
Got Greensteel Goggles with SPs on my cleric and Twisted Talisman - Made the massive mistake of picking Anger's back in Korthos though.
Ring of Spell Storing is not overrated at all in my view when compared with these other sources of spell points.
Epic can wait - I'm after the base item.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 10:51 AM

I don't mind these so much as it's really hard to get any sort of dps from the armor slot.

I think epic marichain actually got better recently with the +10 shatter on it. That extra 4 seeker is A fairly significant boost to people using high crit profile weapons like khopesh and Esos. 80% fort is a myth. Sure the mob starts there but throw in a fs and a someone with imp sunder and you are usually at or under the 50% that we all had to deal with recently. Especially when that person with imp sunder is wearing an epic mari chain and his sunders land every swing.

But even say it's 50% fort an average after debuffs . . . and a full-****** barb with an ESoS . . . the difference is 2.4 damage a swing more than seeker 6 . . . is that worth what people used to pay for the scroll before we got the 3 for 1 trade in?

The +10 Shatter is very nice, it's great to have that on a toon that can sunder and not have to switch weapons. it is nice armor, I'm not saying it's bad armor because it is very good armor. I'm saying the cost was out of whack from it's actual utility.

mournbladereigns

01-03-2012, 10:51 AM

Any Epic or Alchemical Item:) Lottery grinding is not worth it to me:)

What makes you scratch your head wondering what in god's name people are doing offering 20 Reds and a Kidney for a scroll of? What piece of gear have you seen people literally lose their minds chasing that you just don't think is that good?

Two things come to my mind:

Red Scale Armor: gives extra DPS from the flaming burst on everything, two slots, looks pretty cool. Thing is . . . everything in this game that's hard to kill is either immune to fire or has enough resistance that this provides no additional DPS. Was the highest AC plate in the game but crystal cove changed that. So it's pretty much more DPS against trash, maybe melees can sneak a kill in before the FoD lands.

And the cost . . . it sure is heck ain't worth 20 reds considering what 20 reds will get you regarding other gear.

Marilith Chain: I personally don't think this was worth it even before update 9 . . . but seeker 10 with the removal of auto-crits and bosses having 80% fort is almost a cruel joke. Don't get me wrong . . . the base item is excellent, seeker 6 on the body frees up other slots. But the DPS difference between seeker 6 and seeker 10 . . . expecially now . . . is statistically insignificant. Was this ever worth the 20-30 reds people were paying for the scroll?

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 10:52 AM

Why waste two slots for aggro control?

If you need the sneak attack item there sure wear tharnes goggles. If worried about aggro use the new goggles with treason they take one slot and reduce more aggro.

Which goggles are these? I must have misses the memo.

Thrudh

01-03-2012, 10:52 AM

Assuming the Cloak/bracers/gloves(or boots) combo . . .

+3 STR, +2 to-hit and damage if it evens you out

lots of slots, toughness, heavy fort, a stat or two. This is ubber.

+5 resistance

a Constant stream of lightning strikes . . .

+7 CON

+3 AC, and you know how much of an AC-ho I am (yet my highest AC guys doesn't have it . . .)

I'm sorry, this is NOT over-rated, it's appropriately rated for the cost. The scolls for the above will cost you between 8-10 reds and it is worth it.

You're probably right because of all the slots... but are lightning strikes really worth more than claw set (30% amp, +4 damage, 20% threat)? It's HARD to fit the abaishi set into a non-AC build, and you do have to give up some other good gear.

FranOhmsford

01-03-2012, 10:52 AM

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 10:54 AM

Which goggles are these? I must have misses the memo.

Think he's talking the tinker ones ... but they don't add any DPS, so you lose some threat two ways ;-)

brzytki

01-03-2012, 10:54 AM

Bloodstone is a great item for melees. You have to remember, on a khopesh it is +18 to damage on a crit. Every 4th to 5th swing you get that extra 18. That is nothing to sneeze at.

I'd still say Bloodstone is overrated, cause it's +6 seeker and epic one is +8. And that's all. No slots, nothing else. It was great item when there were only a few items with seeker property but now it's just too much of a hassle to farm for it, not to mention make it epic. Many DPS-oriented toons would have Ravager's Set anyway and you could put Bold Trinket for +2 exceptional seeker, +1 dmg (which doesn't stack with some buffs) and shocking blow and there isn't much difference DPS-wise but it's 10x easier to get.

mournbladereigns

01-03-2012, 10:58 AM

IMO greensteel items

GS are the best bang for the buck in the game, yo. SP/HP item, Lit2 or whatevs, con-opp. Use them from lvl 11-12 for TRing. Better than cap only stuff and easy to spread the wealth to alts.

GS = Win

Sarisa

01-03-2012, 11:01 AM

Which goggles are these? I must have misses the memo.

Probably Tinker's Goggles, Intelligence +6, Treason, Disable Device +10, Enhanced Disable Device +5, Nearly Finished

The unlocked Tinker's Set does provide the same sneak attack bonus Tharnes grants, just no True Seeing, and the gloves provide Exceptional Seeker+2.

I concede that the Tharnes set can be situationally great, and probably the only one of the Sub sets still useful, but Tinker's is a viable alternative.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 11:01 AM

You're probably right because of all the slots... but are lightning strikes really worth more than claw set (30% amp, +4 damage, 20% threat)? It's HARD to fit the abaishi set into a non-AC build, and you do have to give up some other good gear.

if that +3 STR evens out your STR that's +2 to-hit/damage and the lightning strikes off the gauntlets will be a wash DPS-wise over claw most of the time. I go one or the other, many people manage to fit in both Claw and Abishai but I'd have trouble doing that on my guys. I like having madstone boots on most of the time and finding a place to put an HP item that doesn't fight for a ToD set is tough.

My AC stalwart doesn't have Abishai. I know he's on the low side of AC tanks these days but I'd maybe gain a point fitting it in if not a total wash. Claw works better for him for threat and amp.

Claw's awesome as well but on some builds I just don't want the extra threat.

Ayseifn

01-03-2012, 11:02 AM

You're probably right because of all the slots... but are lightning strikes really worth more than claw set (30% amp, +4 damage, 20% threat)? It's HARD to fit the abaishi set into a non-AC build, and you do have to give up some other good gear.
I go for helm/boots/cloak on melees, and swap in red dragon helm when doing ToD. The biggest issue is slotting in greensteel for me :/

As for most over rated I'd have to agree on the red scale armours, the scales themselves are awesome trade fodder.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 11:02 AM

Probably Tinker's Goggles, Intelligence +6, Treason, Disable Device +10, Enhanced Disable Device +5, Nearly Finished

The unlocked Tinker's Set does provide the same sneak attack bonus Tharnes grants, just no True Seeing, and the gloves provide Exceptional Seeker+2.

I concede that the Tharnes set can be situationally great, and probably the only one of the Sub sets still useful, but Tinker's is a viable alternative.

yeah, but giving up a gloves slot for it? Meh.

dkyle

01-03-2012, 11:02 AM

I picked up the Totemic Lavalier on my wizzy Franq and haven't regretted it - Minos is superb but take a look at the other items you can get for taps - They're all pretty nice.

It's not bad at level 11, but I certainly wouldn't be using it at end-game. Whereas a Minos likely lasts until you got a blue slot to fill.

Actually, I'd be more likely to use it as a swap-in on a Melee with Silver Flame pots, since it's a single item that takes care of two dump stats at once.

goodspeed

01-03-2012, 11:02 AM

I'd say the bloodstone. Ive watched people asking for ridiculous amounts for it, and I just can't see why. I have a number of trinkets I use depending if their's no mages, if the mages cheap, if I wanna stack more hp, atk, dmg.

I have the seeker hats from cc. Dime a dozen. I just just don't see *** the big deal is with the bloodstone.

And they ion stone thing. Ive watched people run in there with it, and I don't think it guards against lvs cause I remember em *****ing about something. I don't care if I did have that thing, all that hassle could be avoided by just bringing the right ranged for the job. Now if your a solo fiend then ya ok.

And the last one is sort of a both ways thing. The epic sword of shadow. Of course it's exploiting but ive seen people willing to trade armfuls of reds, scrolls, their first born child for a shard scroll or seal of it.

Now I admit it is the best 2 hander in game. I can't think of any other better. Kind of a lil odd but whatever. But the thing is if I needed other stuff besides the ESOS I don't think id go for the sos. I'd want my claw stuff, my abashi stuff, anything, because theirs just so many weapons from alchemical to crafted to greensteel, and with arti's, weapons just aren't a concern anymore.

Which is why unless you've got it all already, I find the ESOS to be a bit overrated when theirs plenty of other things to be striving for gear wise. Now if it magically falls into your lap fine, but if not, I wouldn't go 5 billion into debt for it.

krackythehoodedone

01-03-2012, 11:03 AM

I suppose every item has it's time. But as time progresses is ultimately overshadowed.

I dont agree with your take on E Mari Chain tho. The DR, The Guard are useful and so is the little bit in small print at the bottom. E Mari gives no minusses for wearing Armour to any Skill Check.

My personal let down was the ''Demon Consort Bracers'' The neg level proc means i never wear them anymore

LeLoric

01-03-2012, 11:04 AM

But even say it's 50% fort an average after debuffs . . . and a full-****** barb with an ESoS . . . the difference is 2.4 damage a swing more than seeker 6 . . . is that worth what people used to pay for the scroll before we got the 3 for 1 trade in?

The +10 Shatter is very nice, it's great to have that on a toon that can sunder and not have to switch weapons. it is nice armor, I'm not saying it's bad armor because it is very good armor. I'm saying the cost was out of whack from it's actual utility.

2.4 dmg a swing is a lot coming from an armor. On 50% fort my esos kensai will be doing an extra 2.1 with that fort but then factor in the item slot I gain by not having to use seeker elsewhere. On a trinket I can run greater bold trinket which on devils is another 2 dmg a swing. Or for lob I can run a blasting chime and give everyone much more dps.

Yeah it was a lot to pay and I doubt I ever would have but it was really just a simple demand and supply exercise. Demand was there because there is really no other better options to get dps out of your armor. Supply was the big driving factor for the scroll prices the supply curve was pushed so far left that the intersection of the curves was pushed really high. I find it more ridiculous that peope where paying 4-5 reds for scrolls like zephyr cloak and dustless boots.

LeLoric

01-03-2012, 11:04 AM

yeah, but giving up a gloves slot for it? Meh.

You don't need the gloves slot to get the threat reduction though .

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 11:06 AM

And the last one is sort of a both ways thing. The epic sword of shadow. Of course it's exploiting but ive seen people willing to trade armfuls of reds, scrolls, their first born child for a shard scroll or seal of it.

Now I admit it is the best 2 hander in game. I can't think of any other better. Kind of a lil odd but whatever. But the thing is if I needed other stuff besides the ESOS I don't think id go for the sos. I'd want my claw stuff, my abashi stuff, anything, because theirs just so many weapons from alchemical to crafted to greensteel, and with arti's, weapons just aren't a concern anymore.

Which is why unless you've got it all already, I find the ESOS to be a bit overrated when theirs plenty of other things to be striving for gear wise. Now if it magically falls into your lap fine, but if not, I wouldn't go 5 billion into debt for it.

ESoS is the be-all and end-all of THFing but I've seen people literally lose their sanity in the pursuit of this item. But if you're going THFing you need it.

Just build a Helves angel instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLsyXxaayHk&feature=youtu.be

MRMechMan

01-03-2012, 11:08 AM

Voice is a great item and for TR2+, the 5% xp total is over 200k xp JUST from this item alone. Plus parts 2 and 4 are great xp.

Carnifex is a pretty nice item. It's BTA and most chars run through deleras as its good xp...you'll get one eventually more likely than not. Crittng for 100+ 1/5 of your swings at level 4 is BRUTAL. kobold will ALWAYS still hate you if you take this anywhere near the harbor. If you are ever in a bad mood, roll up a full R-tard H-orc vet status dps barb, name him MrKboldMasher, pass him a carnifex and do a lap of the harbor. It's incredible.

I'm gonna go with greenblade-9%/.25 crit chance/mult is not THAT good. Rather have almost anything else while leveling, and at cap can use the cove dagger. Or skiver whilst leveling if you can afford it, which also utterly outclasses it.

Basically, the market sets the prices, and the market is usually pretty good at doing so. Some items may be overrated or underrated, but it's generally for a reason (ie red armor isn't THAT good for most builds, but it looks so **** COOL).

Bloodstone is also pretty overrated now though, considering the greater bold trinket (+1 damage, seeker +2, vorpal 50-60 damage) is about as good, and literally took about 1 hr to get when the cove was out.

Blue scale as well...elfcrafted is FAIRLY close and almost free (relics are about as easy a farm as it gets).

Basically, what happens is when someone fully equips a character over months and months and they see a way to be SLIGHTLY better...whether thats +1 wail DC, +1 damage, +1 umd etc...they are willing to pay a lot more then the average person would even think...what else are they gonna spend their plat on, potions?

Dropping a mill on a scroll or item isn't that crazy when you have the equivelent of 100million (I'm sure someone somewhere is that rich :D)

Vellrad

01-03-2012, 11:09 AM

Bloodstone is a great item for melees. You have to remember, on a khopesh it is +18 to damage on a crit. Every 4th to 5th swing you get that extra 18. That is nothing to sneeze at.

Its nice, but I think that on X3 crit, +18 damage is less than 10d6+9 on crit, and +1 on non crit from bold trinket ;)

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 11:10 AM

You don't need the gloves slot to get the threat reduction though .

More of a fan of the Claw gloves, Tharnes goggles+ Bracers, Epic GoMF combo. keeps the damage with neutral threat when needed.

k1ngp1n

01-03-2012, 11:15 AM

You're probably right because of all the slots... but are lightning strikes really worth more than claw set (30% amp, +4 damage, 20% threat)? It's HARD to fit the abaishi set into a non-AC build, and you do have to give up some other good gear.

Depends on the build. Abishai is most definitely not overrated. Both abishai and claw sets are useful in differing situations, and should be used appropriately.

To the OP: your choices of eMarilith and Red Dragon are spot on. High over-rated IMO - I use the reds I pull to purchase other gear. I considered for a short time building out a Red for my ranger, but I stuck with my 10%, 20% amp, Destruction DT as more generally useful. (With other swap ins ofc)

LeLoric

01-03-2012, 11:17 AM

More of a fan of the Claw gloves, Tharnes goggles+ Bracers, Epic GoMF combo. keeps the damage with neutral threat when needed.

I just dont generally run sneak attack off goggle slot really anymore. Almost all my melees have 45 hp goggles right now or run epic ravens sight for to hit. Swapping these are easy if i am pulling too much threat.

That said don't swap items just spam bluff. If that's not enough get a better tank. :eek:

Thrudh

01-03-2012, 11:20 AM

ESoS is the be-all and end-all of THFing but I've seen people literally lose their sanity in the pursuit of this item. But if you're going THFing you need it.

I have a THF, and I've only done eVON6 twice.

Just not interested in the grind... He has the epic antique axe and he contributes enough. :)

elraido

01-03-2012, 11:23 AM

Its nice, but I think that on X3 crit, +18 damage is less than 10d6+9 on crit, and +1 on non crit from bold trinket ;)

That 10d6+9 is on a vorpal strike only. The blood stone is on a crit strike. On a FB, that can be around 40% of the time vs 5% of the time.

Sarisa

01-03-2012, 11:33 AM

My personal let down was the ''Demon Consort Bracers'' The neg level proc means i never wear them anymore

They're a Pale Master item, since PM's are immune to their negative level drawback. Warforged, however, are not immune. For anyone NOT a PM, they are heavily overrated.

As for Alchemical, I specifically said some. Primarily, it's the caster items that are a very tiny boost. Handwraps, and an offhand Air weapon, and maybe a fire oriented weapon for certain situations. I just don't see a lot of value in the other things. I don't feel 30 extra damage on a BB crit 3% more often is really worth the grind, nor making Mass Heal hit for 600 instead of ~535 (though the stacking +2 WIS is nice, but in a horrible slot).

krackythehoodedone

01-03-2012, 11:37 AM

You dont have to tell me that Sarisa. I know

I made mine before a Palemaster was even a flicker of electrical activity in a Devs Brain

MRMechMan

01-03-2012, 11:39 AM

That 10d6+9 is on a vorpal strike only. The blood stone is on a crit strike. On a FB, that can be around 40% of the time vs 5% of the time.

Eh? What weapon is your FB swinging that crits on 13-20?

I'm just dying to know.

For khopesh:

Bloodstone=
+18 damage on 17-20=3.6 damage per swing

Bold Trinket=
+6 damage on 17-20=1.2
+1 damage on 2-16=.0666
+3 damage on 17-20=.6
~+30 damage on 20 (assuming they save and dont have evasion)=1.5
=3.3666 a swing

Pretty **** close.

When you add in any kind of fort, bold trinket pulls ahead.
If you are using a weapon with a worse crit range then khopesh (most), bold trinket pulls ahead.
When you add in SoS type crits or FB crits, bloodstone pulls ahead.
If you can fit seeker +6 or more somewhere else, it becomes pretty obvious which is better.

LeLoric

01-03-2012, 11:39 AM

der_kluge

01-03-2012, 11:50 AM

I consider all the dragonscale armors to be way over-rated. It's a shame the best looking armor in the game is also mechnically some of the worst.

re: Ring of Feathers.

Also agreed - especially since I have a ML 0 FF boots in my bank (not sure where I picked those up), and a ML 0 ring of FF on a different character I got as an end reward from WW.

So, grinding for the Ring of Feathers is a complete waste of time. Others options exist!

krackythehoodedone

01-03-2012, 11:56 AM

Not sure if an FB Barb can get to 13-20 Crit Threat with any weapon.

However an old school Crit Rage Barb can get to 13-20 with Rapiers,Scimitars and Bows ( 19-20 threat range ones only. ie E Thorn)

elraido

01-03-2012, 11:57 AM

Eh? What weapon is your FB swinging that crits on 13-20?

I'm just dying to know.

For khopesh:

Bloodstone=
+18 damage on 17-20=3.6 damage per swing

Bold Trinket=
+6 damage on 17-20=1.2
+1 damage on 2-16=.0666
+3 damage on 17-20=.6
~+30 damage on 20 (assuming they save and dont have evasion)=1.5
=3.3666 a swing

Pretty **** close.

When you add in any kind of fort, bold trinket pulls ahead.
If you are using a weapon with a worse crit range then khopesh (most), bold trinket pulls ahead.
When you add in SoS type crits or FB crits, bloodstone pulls ahead.
If you can fit seeker +6 or more somewhere else, it becomes pretty obvious which is better.

Barbarian Critical Rage. Actually, I am trying to remember what the highest possible crit range is with that and what they can take. :p I thought they could get down to a 13 or 14 with a rapier. They were absolutly brutal with W/P back in the day. And yes I do know some Crit Rage barbs

Astraghal

01-03-2012, 12:20 PM

lots of slots, toughness, heavy fort, a stat or two.

This is what does it for me. Getting all abilities over 10 in order to enable Silver Flame healing can be a pain.

Oh and I think the Cannith set bonus items are overrated, from my casual perusal of them. Some of the items are great individually, but the set bonuses seem a bit underwhelming since you can get similar effects on single items.

Zeruell

01-03-2012, 12:29 PM

Barbarian Critical Rage. Actually, I am trying to remember what the highest possible crit range is with that and what they can take. :p I thought they could get down to a 13 or 14 with a rapier. They were absolutly brutal with W/P back in the day.

I can't imagine that many have actually done this, but with Epic Mirages it'd be possible to see an even 50% (11-20) threat range.

Emili

01-03-2012, 12:38 PM

yes and no . . . the handwraps are very nice, the other weapons are nice.

An air/air off-hand weapon is fantastic, stunning 10 on a khopesh is ubber. In AO's DPS calc the lightning II main-hand with Air/Air off-hand out-DPSs dual light IIs. Third tier is nice to but they really are front loaded with most of the goodness coming in the first two tiers.

Regarding time . . . I don't think it's that bad. My AA has 10 completions, my fighter has 9, my other toons have a few each and I'm one martial cell away from crafting my second Tier II item. I don't think that's that bad of a grind.

I've two tier three items and two tier two items ... and the scope of bottleneck are not the spirits or shards but the cells. The items seem front load until you realize the third slot changes the item to epic - breaking epic DR - and with red slot... Third tier procs can be dangerous too i.e. electric storm has a huge aeo the size of an ck.

So lets consider ...

+6 adam + Air + Fire + Air + red slot silver <- eLoB beater and general devil beater with stacking +2 alchemy str...

or

+6 flametouch + Acid + Acid + Water + red slot Adam or silver and +2 alchemy con?

not counting the extras on the alchemy in double-strike, seeker, stunning, earthgrab, stone prison... add for a piece meal mix and match.

LordPiglet

01-03-2012, 12:42 PM

epic chaosblades.

don't bypass DR, vorpal sucks now, and except for devil's and kobolds, nothing takes full damage from them.

If vorpal worked the way it used to, it would be an awesome weapon for trash.

Sahuagin and efreeti take full damage from it also.

I get 2-6 hp back a swing (210% heal amp).

5% chance for extra damage or instakill on lawful creatures.

Devil's Ruin augments make them into DR bypassers.

Feralthyrtiaq

01-03-2012, 12:47 PM

Any Epic or Alchemical Item:) Lottery grinding is not worth it to me:)

Well Said

WruntJunior

01-03-2012, 12:50 PM

As to my opinion of overated I think it falls under items that people tend to think are full time use weapons/items versus what they cost. If people are misusing their items regularly because of either a status symbol or they think nothing is better even situationally then that item is probably overated.

Epic mabar wraps: really should only be used on undead yet I hear the radiant blast go off all the time when it shouldn't. And for god sakes don't use on lob who has light absorption.

Red dragon robes: take these off in shroud/vod/tod/eda pls you don't need the extra 10 fire resist.

The epic mabar wraps have a niche use on undergeared monks - being a +6 weapon if you don't have +5 greater banes or such awesome weapons. On my monk that's rather under-par until I can TR and fix him next month, these wraps are awesome because of that.

Personally, one item I really think is over-rated as an epic is Epic Firestorm Greaves...I see too many people wanting to make boots that are WORSE than the non-epic version.

Other than that, Red Scale is over-rated (except for the fact that they look good imo), and epic marilith chain was highly over-rated when it was a 30-scale item (I never seriously considered making it until the scroll trade in, as it was more of a "I hope I pull this scroll so I can buy the scrolls I need!" item.)

Other than that, the full claw set definitely falls into the over-rated equipment, but not because it's not worth the work...more because too many people that DO get the epic claw set think they ABSOLUTELY must always wear it, and that if they pull aggro with it on, they should tank and the tank should re-roll.

LordPiglet

01-03-2012, 12:56 PM

I have a THF, and I've only done eVON6 twice.

Just not interested in the grind... He has the epic antique axe and he contributes enough. :)

I can't even get the f'in base or any components.

I find eXuum works well enough on any non-fire immune mobs. eAGA works well for dr bypassing also.

Grosbeak07

01-03-2012, 12:58 PM

This thread is very interesting. Many of the items listed were top of the line when they first came out and people spent obscene amounts of time grinding for them. As the game has aged, new, better items have come out to replace these, but the value of these items remain high because for long periods of time, they were items you were told you had to have!

Now there are new items I'm told I have to have! In a few updates there will be even more items I have to have and those item I had to have, will be considered garbage! Its a never ending cycle. ;)

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 12:59 PM

So lets consider ... adam + Air + Fire + Air + red slot silver <- eLoB beater and general devil beater.

But would it out DPS the appropriate metal-type HBoGB?

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 01:03 PM

Other than that, the full claw set definitely falls into the over-rated equipment, but not because it's not worth the work...more because too many people that DO get the epic claw set think they ABSOLUTELY must always wear it, and that if they pull aggro with it on, they should tank and the tank should re-roll.

Gotta disagree with you there, just because somebody is using a piece of gear stupidly doesn't mean it's not great, and claw-set is great.

BacardiSpecialist

01-03-2012, 01:03 PM

As an Epic Junkie Crafter i have regretted for a few of the Items i crafted.

Number 1 is:Epic Xuum

Yeah many people said that it is a mini eSOS but having both of them on my Barbs i faced the cruel truth,its a nice Trash beater but overall useless!
I prefer to swing a huge high Base Damage/Crit piece of metal like eSoS than a flaming Falchion that has a terrible base damage and i dont get purple damage on 96% of the end game mobs or bosses.
For a long time i was using a +5 Flaming Burst Falchion of enfbleeding and guess what...it was better than the freaking Xuum...

so with the above arguments i have to give...

Number 2 at Red Dragon Armor/Robes (Haven`t crafted it nor planning)

While eMC is indeed overrated its a nice spot to throw seeker on most builds.

Given the fact that your other seeker options are either on trinket (bloodstone),ring(Ring of the Stalker),hat(Crystal Cove Hats) things that interfere with LotD,ToD sets and Minos/Helm of Frost/Helm of the Red Dragon/etc.

Imp Sunder and Fort changes at least gave the MC another use,the Shatter +10 became useful,but it could use more slot love considering the fact the Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers have both Blue and Colorless Slots.

So at 3rd Place e Marilith Chain (Pre U9) and less After the scroll exchange.

At a Special Category i left the Fens sets lack of slots or the lack of synergy of all eRedFens sets with eGem of many Facets,Greater Vulkoors might with Charged Gauntlets anyone?

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 01:04 PM

But would it out DPS the appropriate metal-type HBoGB?

For some, and this may not make sense, it may be easier to finish an alchemical rather than get crafting to the point of burst/greater banes.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 01:10 PM

For some, and this may not make sense, it may be easier to finish an alchemical rather than get crafting to the point of burst/greater banes.

Rethink that statement . . . easier to craft a TIER III alchemical that to craft HBoGB?

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 01:12 PM

Rethink that statement . . . easier to craft a TIER III alchemical that to craft HBoGB?

Maybe. I bet I'll get there first.

I didn't get a capped crafter during the early beta ... leveling now is a pain and it's like playing a freaking facebook game. I'm far more likely to, you know, RUN QUESTS than spend the time to get my crafting from the 60s up to where it needs to be to make the big bursters reliably.

EDIT: And to clarify and be specific. I'm not leveling a crafter any more at this point, but I am raiding/questing ... so ... yeah

dkyle

01-03-2012, 01:15 PM

Maybe. I bet I'll get there first.

I didn't get a capped crafter during the early beta ... leveling now is a pain and it's like playing a freaking facebook game. I'm far more likely to, you know, RUN QUESTS than spend the time to get my crafting from the 60s up to where it needs to be to make the big bursters reliably.

Well, if you just personally run a lot of Epic LoBs, and don't put anything into crafting, of course you'll get there faster. But with fairly casual crafting from the start (and no, I didn't cap during the Beta), I can make Holy Burst GLOBs. It's not as hard as you seem to think. Unbound crafting made it way easier. And do you not have down-time while groups are filling, or have a little spare time, but not enough to run a whole Raid? Tier III alchemicals are but a faint dream for me, somewhere around getting an ESoS.

Ayseifn

01-03-2012, 01:16 PM

At a Special Category i left the Fens sets lack of slots or the lack of synergy of all eRedFens sets with eGem of many Facets,Greater Vulkoors might with Charged Gauntlets anyone?
I really dig the ravens goggs/venom necky/claw gloves combo for rogues and other non tanking melees, never really saw the appeal of charged gauntlets compared to what claw provides.

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 01:17 PM

Well, if you just personally run a lot of Epic LoBs, and don't put anything into crafting, of course you'll get there faster. But with fairly casual crafting from the start (and no, I didn't cap during the Beta), I can make Holy Burst GLOBs. It's not as hard as you seem to think. Unbound crafting made it way easier. Tier III alchemicals are but a faint dream for me, somewhere around getting an ESoS.

We all have our things we do and we don't. For the people who can't stomach the repetitive clicks of increasing your crafting levels, I absolutely see them making the trade-off.

Again, personal choice - my time is limited, so I prefer to quest.

djl

01-03-2012, 01:21 PM

Ninety

01-03-2012, 01:27 PM

helm of the red dragon.

+7 str, yellow slot, and fire shield clickie.

meh. loss of an equip slot for +1 str and a yellow slot.

I only keep it on my barb for the clickie.

BacardiSpecialist

01-03-2012, 01:30 PM

I really dig the ravens goggs/venom necky/claw gloves combo for rogues and other non tanking melees, never really saw the appeal of charged gauntlets compared to what claw provides.

Personally i have 2 +6 STR items and a +7 one so yeah the gloves give me almost nothing,healing amp is nice but i could easily lose it for the Lightning Strike Proc on vorpals.
As i typed it would be nice if we could use Gem of Many Facets with just Bracers and get the Greater Might of Vulkoor

dkyle

01-03-2012, 01:34 PM

We all have our things we do and we don't. For the people who can't stomach the repetitive clicks of increasing your crafting levels, I absolutely see them making the trade-off.

Again, personal choice - my time is limited, so I prefer to quest.

Sure we've all got our personal quirks, but if you're going to argue in favor of Alchemicals over crafted weapons, when Alchemicals are both way behind in DPS (especially that air+fire+air one), and way harder to get, to all but those few who are similar, to you, willing to grind the hardest Epic Raid in the game for who knows how long, and totally averse to a five or ten minutes of crafting at the end of each play session (or simply while groups are filling), that's a pretty weak argument.

Supposing I hate VoN, does that make for a good argument that ESoS is overrated? Or if I simply hate Shroud, that GS is overrated? If all you want to do is express a personal preference, fine, can't argue with that, but as an argument meant to debate the game, it's a real stretch.

dkyle

01-03-2012, 01:38 PM

I see all this talk about Bloodstones, and I wonder if it is worth using one on a ranged toon, such as an Artificer. Theoretically, it would help an Arty just as much if not more than a melee, because their bows have the same crit profile as a falchion and the extra confirm critical makes up for their low BAB, not to mention they have a very high attack speed with repeaters.

Was there any doubt that Bloodstone would be good for a ranged DPS character? Only difference from melee would be that Shimmering Arrowhead presents stiffer competition. But for flat-out Boss DPS, there's not much better for the trinket slot.

djl

01-03-2012, 01:41 PM

For all talking about the ESoS, because of its difficulty to acquire it is a min/max item, not a required item. To completely optimize your THF you do need it, but you can get by just fine in any epic with an Eantique and/or the t3 Epic Elemental Fire Axe from challenges against non-fire-immune mobs. ESoS is definitely not overrated-- nothing comes close-- but it's far from being a necessity either. Getting it will make you a more efficient DPSer for sure, but it's not like you can't contribute meaningfully without one.

voodoogroves

01-03-2012, 01:42 PM

Sure we've all got our personal quirks, but if you're going to argue in favor of Alchemicals over crafted weapons, when Alchemicals are both way behind in DPS (especially that air+fire+air one), and way harder to get, to all but those few who are similar, to you, willing to grind the hardest Epic Raid in the game for who knows how long, and totally averse to a five or ten minutes of crafting at the end of each play session (or simply while groups are filling), that's a pretty weak argument.

Supposing I hate VoN, does that make for a good argument that ESoS is overrated? Or if I simply hate Shroud, that GS is overrated? If all you want to do is express a personal preference, fine, can't argue with that, but as an argument meant to debate the game, it's a real stretch.

My comment was like a 3rd string follow-on to a conversation that started about something else. I'm not making any claims as to the capabilities of the individual items, so don't read more into it ;-)

I'm just saying that some people may prefer to pursue things like alchemical weapons as opposed to crafting, for a variety of reasons. This would be similar to me stating that some people love Min2s because they hate carrying lots of stuff in their inventory. Are they the best for every situation? Clearly, no ... but plenty of folks still use them, especially on the TR-train. There is an opportunity cost to carry and equip every weapon (or grind crafting, or hit your 20s, farm shroud, farm vale, make prey runs, etc.)

Best is always the best and we can validate that mathematically, but you can't impose your own bias on opportunity costs to pursue or create "the best" onto others. For them, the cost and trade-off may not be worth it.

jwdaniels

01-03-2012, 01:46 PM

Nothing is an "absolute necessity". But "bang for your buck" at end-game? LitII, Conc-Op, and a 45 HP item? About as good as it gets.

Endgame? Last I checked you can equip Greensteel items at level 11 and weapons at level 12 and that is why they are so great. It's not necessarily so much the item as when you can use it.

Delera's offers great experience not so much just for the pack as for the 5% bonus to all of your other experience. If you think about it that way, it's like a 200,000 exp bonus to every TR on their second life, which is big for one mid-level pack. Sure, the mantle does the same thing but Threnal is a higher-level pack to run and much harder to get a group for it. It takes longer and is less fun to run...

And for anyone who is saying that Carnifex is overrated, equip it on a barbarian with power attack bonuses (warforged or half-orc) and then see if you feel that way. Critting 20% of the time for 100+ damage is pretty awesome at level 5...

dkyle

01-03-2012, 01:53 PM

Endgame? Last I checked you can equip Greensteel items at level 11 and weapons at level 12 and that is why they are so great. It's not necessarily so much the item as when you can use it.

It's an end-game item with a low ML. ML has little to do with end-game worthiness. If it were an item I'd use at 11-12, but stop using by end-game, I probably wouldn't bother. Leveling is too easy to spend that much time twinking a single character for it; but the low ML is a nice bonus for TRs. Even though there is better stuff nowadays (at least for weapons), that stuff takes a long time to get, so a LitII is a great end-game weapon until you get the absolute best stuff. There's no replacing a Conc-Op and/or HP item.

djl

01-03-2012, 01:58 PM

Also, anyone who poo-poos alchemicals has never used one.

I have an earth/air falchion and it is incredibly fun and effective. The combination of doublestrike 6%, lightning strike, earth grab, and stone prison on a weapon is simply amazing.

jwdaniels

01-03-2012, 01:59 PM

It's an end-game item with a low ML. ML has little to do with end-game worthiness. If it were an item I'd use at 11-12, but stop using by end-game, I probably wouldn't bother. Leveling is too easy to spend that much time twinking a single character for it; but the low ML is a nice bonus for TRs. Even though there is better stuff nowadays (at least for weapons), that stuff takes a long time to get, so a LitII is a great end-game weapon until you get the absolute best stuff. There's no replacing a Conc-Op and/or HP item.

I never said it wasn't useful at end-game; just that the often overlooked value of greensteel is that you can equip it at much lower levels than comparable equipment, making it much better.

Chai

01-03-2012, 02:02 PM

Someone else said Ring of Feathers.

I never could understand people who would spend 300k plat because they couldn't stand to wait until level 5 or level 7 to put on their FF boots.

Picked up a bound to account no ML feather fall boots a few times now out of the first sharn quest. Cant be broken like the ring of feathers can.

I think the GH armors are over-rated too... 20 dragon scales of a particular color usually means 40-50 Gianthold Tor runs... That's worse than most raids.

Need these to start with to make the epic red scale armor.

Back in the day the blue scale arcane lore was one of the only items that had arcane lore on it which would amp up blade barrier, disintegrate, and other untyped spells. Nowdays all thats changed.

Chai

01-03-2012, 02:10 PM

Sure we've all got our personal quirks, but if you're going to argue in favor of Alchemicals over crafted weapons, when Alchemicals are both way behind in DPS (especially that air+fire+air one), and way harder to get, to all but those few who are similar, to you, willing to grind the hardest Epic Raid in the game for who knows how long, and totally averse to a five or ten minutes of crafting at the end of each play session (or simply while groups are filling), that's a pretty weak argument.

Supposing I hate VoN, does that make for a good argument that ESoS is overrated? Or if I simply hate Shroud, that GS is overrated? If all you want to do is express a personal preference, fine, can't argue with that, but as an argument meant to debate the game, it's a real stretch.

Alchemicals are behind in DPS? Wait ..wait...now having a khopesh that looks like a shroud weapon with doublestrike 6% and stunning +10 tacked on somehow doesnt meet standards -vs- cannith? Do people have a (alignment burst) -of- (greater _____bane) weapon in their inventory for every single mob type in the game? Most people I play with have a beater or two for all trash mobs, then have a few boss beaters. We aint all piking behind casters, like some of the other forum threads suggest, heh. Speaking of which....

Have you seen the alchemical caster weapons yet?

dkyle

01-03-2012, 02:17 PM

Alchemicals are behind in DPS? Wait ..wait...now having a khopesh that looks like a shroud weapon with doublestrike 6% and stunning +10 tacked on somehow doesnt meet standards -vs- cannith? Do people have a (alignment burst) -of- (greater _____bane) weapon in their inventory for every single mob type in the game? Most people I play with have a beater or two for all trash mobs, then have a few boss beaters. We aint all piking behind casters, like some of the other forum threads suggest, heh. Speaking of which....

The discussion was about boss beaters. Alchemicals are almost as boss-specific as Cannith beaters. That Air-Fire-Air beater mentioned that breaks Pit Fiend and LoB DR is quite awful DPS against both. MinIIs, and stuff craftable at CL35, beat it handily.

Earth/Air is indeed a great trash-beating weapon. Or Air/Air for Monks, or other stunning builds. Alchemical weapons are very nice for certain purposes, but unless you're a Dark Monk, boss beaters aren't one of them.

Have you seen the alchemical caster weapons yet?

Yeah, they're nice. Especially for Divine casters.

WruntJunior

01-03-2012, 02:21 PM

Gotta disagree with you there, just because somebody is using a piece of gear stupidly doesn't mean it's not great, and claw-set is great.

The gloves are great, the bracers are meh, the set bonus is good. In my post, though, I might be speaking a bit more to ignorance than to to value of the set (in that people with the set tend to, in my experience, not think they should break the set). Quite possibly doesn't quite fit the criteria of the thread, in which case ignore the point (other than not using claw set if you draw aggro with it and you're not tanking!)

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 02:21 PM

Alchemicals are behind in DPS? Wait ..wait...now having a khopesh that looks like a shroud weapon with doublestrike 6% and stunning +10 tacked on somehow doesnt meet standards -vs- cannith?

An off-hand air/air weapon is great, will get even better with Tier III. I don't think anyone refutes that. (if you do please start another thread, I don't want to see this get hijacked too much).

Do people have a (alignment burst) -of- (greater _____bane) weapon in their inventory for every single mob type in the game?

For everything that's hard to kill, yes many of us do. did I bother making HBoGMHB for fens? Nah, but everything hard to kill gets special weapons crafted for it.

Most people I play with have a beater or two for all trash mobs, then have a few boss beaters. We aint all piking behind casters, like some of the other forum threads suggest, heh. Speaking of which....

Have you seen the alchemical caster weapons yet?

When you really feel like piking, I play my caster. :)

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 02:25 PM

Earth/Air is indeed a great trash-beating weapon. Or Air/Air for Monks, or other stunning builds. Alchemical weapons are very nice for certain purposes, but unless you're a Dark Monk, boss beaters aren't one of them.

For some reason my brain couldn't put that combo together . . . but eath/air does look pretty good. I you already had an air/air on a kensai, what would you make for a main-hand weapon or would you stick with a lighting II?

muncholuncho

01-03-2012, 02:29 PM

Each and every 2-handers in game bar the e-sos, sadly...

I agree my min2 great-axe is now just a stoneskin clicky.

WruntJunior

01-03-2012, 02:31 PM

The discussion was about boss beaters. Alchemicals are almost as boss-specific as Cannith beaters. That Air-Fire-Air beater mentioned that breaks Pit Fiend and LoB DR is quite awful DPS against both. MinIIs, and stuff craftable at CL35, beat it handily.

Earth/Air is indeed a great trash-beating weapon. Or Air/Air for Monks, or other stunning builds. Alchemical weapons are very nice for certain purposes, but unless you're a Dark Monk, boss beaters aren't one of them.

Yeah, they're nice. Especially for Divine casters.

An off-hand (Flametouched Iron)Fire/Air/Air seems an awesome weapon for evasion characters to get seeker +10 among many other things, and can break DR with silver in the red slot (adamantine can be applied to it for LoB and such from scrolls or artificers, but I'm not entirely sure if I'd rather have this or crafted +5 hb adamantine GCBs). Overall, once mine is done, I expect it'll stay in my off-hand ~90%-95% of the time on Wruntblender.

dkyle

01-03-2012, 02:33 PM

For some reason my brain couldn't put that combo together . . . but eath/air does look pretty good. I you already had an air/air on a kensai, what would you make for a main-hand weapon or would you stick with a lighting II?

I'd say LitII main-hand. With the doublestrike already covered off-hand, it's the most DPS you can get vs. most things. A second Air/Air would definitely be a waste.

I don't think it's worthwhile making a second alchemical weapon, but if you've really got the mats to spare, an Earth/Earth, or maybe Earth/Fire, is probably the next best thing. I'm not that confident about that, though. I'm not sure how well Earth/Water's DPS stacks up.

grodon9999

01-03-2012, 02:35 PM

dkyle

01-03-2012, 02:42 PM

An off-hand (Flametouched Iron)Fire/Air/Air seems an awesome weapon for evasion characters to get seeker +10 among many other things, and can break DR with silver in the red slot (adamantine can be applied to it for LoB and such from scrolls or artificers, but I'm not entirely sure if I'd rather have this or crafted +5 hb adamantine GCBs). Overall, once mine is done, I expect it'll stay in my off-hand ~90%-95% of the time on Wruntblender.

On a khopesh Rogue, the extra 4 seeker over a Bloodstone or Cove hat would contribute 1.6 per hand, vs. 0% fort. So 2.88 per attack-pair, assuming GTWF. Add in 50% fort, and you're looking at 1.44 per attack-pair. Against anything with Silver+Good DR, Shocking Burst would add 5.7 to the off-hand attack, for net 4.56 per attack-pair.

So, against Pit Fiends, Fire/Air/Air is weaker than Air/Air/Air. Even with Adamantine weapons, it's a very poor LoB beater (then again, all Alchemicals are). Not much of a boss beater. But, it's quite nice against trash that take fire and electric damage.

WruntJunior

01-03-2012, 02:46 PM

On a khopesh Rogue, the extra 4 seeker over a Bloodstone or Cove hat would contribute 1.6 per hand, vs. 0% fort. So 2.88 per attack-pair, assuming GTWF. Add in 50% fort, and you're looking at 1.44 per attack-pair. Against anything with Silver+Good DR, Shocking Burst would add 5.7 to the off-hand attack, for net 4.56 per attack-pair.

So, against Pit Fiends, Fire/Air/Air is weaker than Air/Air/Air. Even with Adamantine weapons, it's a very poor LoB beater (then again, all Alchemicals are). Not much of a boss beater. But, it's quite nice against trash that take fire and electric damage.

Also frees up trinket slot for litany, greater bold trinket, or similar.

Feralthyrtiaq

01-03-2012, 02:50 PM

Litany of the Dead- Value vs. Effort = Over-rated

Maxallu

01-03-2012, 03:09 PM

According to this thread, everything is overrated. What a joke.

Taimasan

01-03-2012, 03:12 PM

http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/quis/
-
That is my main and I am wearing most of this over-rated equipment said in these posts. Its making me think I really am a a-hole. To me it seems really nice. The epic red adds flaming burst, +2 good luck, a boost to my fire 3x finisher. And +8 AC. Litany evens my stats and boosts saves with +1 to hit dam. Epic Spectrals add a +4 to hit with +7 dex to help more with a bit of ac.
Raid buffed I hit low 70s so its not bad in the epics and raids I have tanked since the Earth changes so far. And my Prototype(Dual-Infusion A/A) Handwraps don't get me started. I sport a holy burst ring, shocking burst on wraps, and flaming on red robe, loving it. I was contemplating earth but people forget the auto-stun with stunning +10 has roughly the same Programmed Random OC as the Earthgrab.
Alas but works on small but less margin of mobs in the game. And the doublestrike with Lightning Strike...I mean, I have been waiting for it for 2 years. How is it not a must-have.
Slapped Byeshk on those bad boys for 2d14 x3 +6% doublestrike with LS. Can get tier III and slot silver for full time boss beating or if I have arti, they turn into boss beaters.
I would ask for people to show me alternative, because to me all my over-rated equipment seems to have a use that cannot be easily fit in by other loadouts. Thanks and I really need/welcome feedback....

dkyle

01-03-2012, 03:19 PM

According to this thread, everything is overrated. What a joke.

Also, according to this thread, different people have different opinions. A startling revelation, to be sure.

@Taimasan: a lot of "overrated" in this thread is about how difficult it is to get things vs. how much good they actually do. Once you have it, of course it's good to use.

BacardiSpecialist

01-03-2012, 03:21 PM

And then there is the class specific Items which isnt the point in this thread(Maybe it is since we stopped talking about Over-rated items and the last 4 pages have alchemical crafting tips).

Anyway...A-hole definitely no! but its like saying Cloak of the Zephyr is over-rated because its useless to Fighters and Barbs.

Since your monk "cant" wear anything but robes the Red Dragon Robe is a one way road.

twigzz

01-03-2012, 03:26 PM

Emili

01-03-2012, 04:57 PM

Personally i have 2 +6 STR items and a +7 one so yeah the gloves give me almost nothing,healing amp is nice but i could easily lose it for the Lightning Strike Proc on vorpals.
As i typed it would be nice if we could use Gem of Many Facets with just Bracers and get the Greater Might of Vulkoor

:D eClaw bonus set (+4 damage) still outdoes eCharged gauntlets I believe DPS-wise

However, besides that I am starting to feel that Healing Amp is more important than a few points of DPS these days... either way...

Last night in Epic MA ... started out with a WF tank on mark II, I was clericing him and doing fine maintianing about 1k mana ... scroll healing him for 260, I suppose I got a little too close however and got knocked down, along with the Arty who was also keeping an eye on him... So the tank died.

In Steps a human pally and low and behold ... his amp was such that my scrolls were only doing 180hp on him... result was I needed to use more mana based spells to keep him even and I started draining blue bar and potting... by the time the titan was killed I was out of pots and had nothing left to DoT the boss.

Same goes for eLoB ... I am a slowly becomming very annoyed with people with less than ample stacked amp... Need not be in those raids. The best tanks I can scroll heal for 600 to 800 and have 3/4+ mana for the end parts.

The way healing amp works is multiplitive not additive... i.e. 100hp * 1,1 * 1,2 * 1.3 = 171,6 ... as such the more enhancements and items stacking the gains become even more pronounced. There was a time a SF pot would heal my barb for 516 back in the days early GH and I feel maybe I should spec her back to that... an Arty with full scroll IV would heal it for 702. If we drop the eClaw gloves (one item) that would become 594

BacardiSpecialist

01-03-2012, 05:11 PM

:D Am starting to take the position that Healing Amp is more important than a few points of DPS these days...

Couldn't agree more since i already have a 10%/20% healing amp on my hate tanking DT,30% from Claw gloves and a finger necklace i can equip any time but...in some cases i dont need all the healing amp of the world and the extra Dps would be sweet,how many times i am spending at the back of a huge demon not taking damage?
Thats the reason why i have 2 different ToD rings with 20% healing amp,gear swapping is fun for me :D

Vormaerin

01-03-2012, 05:17 PM

@Taimasan: a lot of "overrated" in this thread is about how difficult it is to get things vs. how much good they actually do. Once you have it, of course it's good to use.

Over rated /= Bad. It just means that its considered better than it actually is, so people pay too much for it. Or they denigrate other valuable gear because its not the supposed "best" that the overrated item represents.

Dragavon

01-03-2012, 06:18 PM

What are you replacing it with that's anywhere near as easy to get? Every single one of my characters has one, and I don't regret it for a moment. Only my Barb doesn't wear it all the time; he swaps it in when tanking, for the extra HP. I'd only take it off the others if I could slot Toughness in an epic item.

The only thing special about Minos is the 20HP. Heavy fort can be found in many other slots. Using one valuable slot for only 20 HP is for as much a waste as a second thoughness feat on a paladin.

I never felt those 20HP where invaluable to any of my characters.

And now that we have epic items we can have thougness in a number of places too.

Minos is meh imo. But you dont have to agree with me ;)

hecate355

01-03-2012, 06:24 PM

Agreed. Especially since it's so easy to craft a true chaos everbright or something like that instead for oozes.

Never really understood that one. It's decent.....but meh. Not worth farming for.

I wouldnt exactly call it farming, its quite common loot, for me at least, and in a very short quest.

fuzzy1guy

01-03-2012, 06:31 PM

Could save alot of arguing by just listing in bulk.

Half the evon equipment.

Half the esands equipment.

Half the efens equipment.

Half the abbot ****.

Half the reavers ****.

Half the subt stuff.

A great many useless things.

Aside from a few nice items here and there. We have alot of completely useless garbage that can take you months of farming to get. Epic or not.

NaturalHazard

01-03-2012, 06:54 PM

That said a highly under-rated item is Vulkorum Fighting Leathers, and those are achievable as the shard drops pretty decently in OoB.

I like mine on my ranger for when theres no bard in an epic quest.

NaturalHazard

01-03-2012, 06:56 PM

PS. I love the Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers. Same attack bonus as the Epic Spectrals, a slightly lower than Tharnes sneak attack bonus, permanent fire resist after a raise/ship buffs running out, and two slots. They also look nice.

ok i love everything but how they look, maybe im fussy?

hecate355

01-03-2012, 07:09 PM

The only thing special about Minos is the 20HP. Heavy fort can be found in many other slots. Using one valuable slot for only 20 HP is for as much a waste as a second thoughness feat on a paladin.

I never felt those 20HP where invaluable to any of my characters.

And now that we have epic items we can have thoughness in a number of places too.

Minos is meh imo. But you dont have to agree with me ;)

the problem with that logic is, that every other thing has minor effect, handful of minor things alltho have significent effect. 1 extra con is tiny minor effect, but it can yield ~20 hp.

more over, those minor effects are not isolated within 1 section of build, they can have synergy with each and every other.

those 'tiny details' are what separate ok and great char, make few too many compromises and as result you get noticable drop in gaming experience.

ps at its min level, 20 hps are not even minor thing, for some poor dude, it may be exrta 1/5 :D

sirgog

01-03-2012, 07:15 PM

NaturalHazard

01-03-2012, 07:15 PM

It's not bad at level 11, but I certainly wouldn't be using it at end-game. Whereas a Minos likely lasts until you got a blue slot to fill.

Actually, I'd be more likely to use it as a swap-in on a Melee with Silver Flame pots, since it's a single item that takes care of two dump stats at once.

I do still have mino's on both my bards, and its just because im so **** stingy with my epic tokens, im outfiting my ranger with augments in all his epic gear and my poor bards have to just do with a mino's. Yep im taking them into epics, even solo ccing on the spellsinger with my crappy min level 11 helms.

sirgog

01-03-2012, 07:29 PM

I do still have mino's on both my bards, and its just because im so **** stingy with my epic tokens, im outfiting my ranger with augments in all his epic gear and my poor bards have to just do with a mino's. Yep im taking them into epics, even solo ccing on the spellsinger with my crappy min level 11 helms.

Yeah Minos is high-quality stuff. If it were min level 18 it would be a borderline OK item, at ML 11 it is excellent.

It's not premier endgame gear, but neither is Carnifex. And unlike Carnifex, it's still quite OK at 20.

fco-karatekid

01-03-2012, 07:39 PM

Agreed. Especially since it's so easy to craft a true chaos everbright or something like that instead for oozes.

Never really understood that one. It's decent.....but meh. Not worth farming for.

Well, NOW it's not. When I had ONE character and a grand total of 12 platinum to my name, Muckbane farming and auctioning aided in getting my bankroll built up.

It depends upon where you are in the DDO lifecycle.

Darknark

01-03-2012, 07:43 PM

<sarcasm>

The Torc... it is the most over rated item ever.... :D

So you should pass yours to me.

</sarcasm>

Though I'd have to go with epic red dragonscale armor.

sheepface

01-03-2012, 07:58 PM

And the cost . . . it sure is heck ain't worth 20 reds considering what 20 reds will get you regarding other gear.

Coming from someone who has TWO sets ;)

Astraghal

01-03-2012, 08:00 PM

Non-Epic SoS.. wait for it! :D

Saravis

01-03-2012, 08:24 PM

Definitely Red Dragon Scale Armor, way too much effort for a very meh armor.

Looks awesome, but thats about it.

sirgog

01-03-2012, 09:13 PM

Definitely Red Dragon Scale Armor, way too much effort for a very meh armor.

Looks awesome, but thats about it.

It is also:

- The best DPS armor in the game for Monks
- The best DPS armor in the game for Warforged
- The best DPS armor in the game for Khopesh users that use Bloodstone
- The best DPS armor in the game for THF characters that do not have an eSOS
- The second best DPS armor in the game for almost every character it isn't best for
- The second or third best all-around defensive armor in the game (second to Cav Plate for fleshies, DoD for WF, and amp/amp/XXX Dragontouched in some gearsets). Yes 40 fire resist IS that good.

And it is all of that AT THE SAME TIME. Especially now that so little endgame content has fire immunities.

Of course it is expensive, it is rare and THE BEST item at what it does. Just like +4 tomes are a very, very small upgrade for a toon over +2s, but are ultra-expensive (both in unbound trades and also in in-chest trades in raids)

Sarisa

01-03-2012, 09:14 PM

Minos might be "overrated" for capped, geared out players, but it's very significant for newer players.

People without their GS, still working on acquiring and fitting in their CON6 and GFL/SFL items, along with other stat items, no epics to slot Toughness and no tokens even if they had an item, and the like are going to really appreciate the Minos.

Heavy Fort is something that's essential anyway, and toss on the lowest level source of Toughness, where the next item is 4 levels higher (and in a less commonly owned pack than Necro 4), and you have a great item for any TR or newer player. It's not a highly competitive slot, with the only other common non-GS mid-level competition for it being the Sora Kell set. Cove Hats can be superior, but those are only available during the event twice per year.

Taimasan

01-03-2012, 09:28 PM

It is also:

- The best DPS armor in the game for Monks
- The best DPS armor in the game for Warforged
- The best DPS armor in the game for Khopesh users that use Bloodstone
- The best DPS armor in the game for THF characters that do not have an eSOS
- The second best DPS armor in the game for almost every character it isn't best for
- The second or third best all-around defensive armor in the game (second to Cav Plate for fleshies, DoD for WF, and amp/amp/XXX Dragontouched in some gearsets). Yes 40 fire resist IS that good.

And it is all of that AT THE SAME TIME. Especially now that so little endgame content has fire immunities.

Of course it is expensive, it is rare and THE BEST item at what it does. Just like +4 tomes are a very, very small upgrade for a toon over +2s, but are ultra-expensive (both in unbound trades and also in in-chest trades in raids)

+1 most people who I have seen rag on the red scale are the people who have no wish/wish to obtain it. Like most stuff.

Jaid314

01-03-2012, 09:44 PM

gloopygloop

01-03-2012, 09:44 PM

Alchemicals are behind in DPS? Wait ..wait...now having a khopesh that looks like a shroud weapon with doublestrike 6% and stunning +10 tacked on somehow doesnt meet standards -vs- cannith? Do people have a (alignment burst) -of- (greater _____bane) weapon in their inventory for every single mob type in the game?

For all the big stuff, I do.

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Undead Bane on my characters that don't have Mabar wraps or Pos/Pos/Pos Warhammers.

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Construct Bane - meh vs. golems, but great against LoB and his Paladins

+5 Holy Burst of Evil Outsider Bane - Harry, Sully and Horoth need love too.

I'm not going to bother crafting a special weapon just to beat down some piece of trash. I'll gladly craft a special weapon to beat down the biggest new boss in the game.

Taimasan

01-03-2012, 10:46 PM

For all the big stuff, I do.

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Undead Bane on my characters that don't have Mabar wraps or Pos/Pos/Pos Warhammers.

+5 Holy Burst of Greater Construct Bane - meh vs. golems, but great against LoB and his Paladins

+5 Holy Burst of Evil Outsider Bane - Harry, Sully and Horoth need love too.

I'm not going to bother crafting a special weapon just to beat down some piece of trash. I'll gladly craft a special weapon to beat down the biggest new boss in the game.

My +5 Prototype Dual Infused Air/Air Handwraps Metal:B.

They are top DPS for me....

Emili

01-03-2012, 11:24 PM

My +5 Prototype Dual Infused Air/Air Handwraps Metal:B.

They are top DPS for me....

Byeshk for +1 die step, Shocking Burst, Stunning +10, Heightened Awareness 4, Alchemical Dex +2, Lightning Strike, 6% Doublestrike

dragon2fire

01-03-2012, 11:26 PM

The sorta kel set form lordsmarch....honestly i have seen people obsess over these items and i have no idea why.

grodon9999

01-04-2012, 12:29 AM

+1 most people who I have seen rag on the red scale are the people who have no wish/wish to obtain it. Like most stuff.

I have two sets and can build a third as soon as I pull another shard . . . can I still rip on it? :)

It's nice DPS armor except that everything in the game that's hard to kill happens to be immun to fire, except for the Abbot.

grodon9999

01-04-2012, 12:30 AM

Coming from someone who has TWO sets ;)

So I should know! :)

bartosy

01-04-2012, 01:03 AM

The sorta kel set form lordsmarch....honestly i have seen people obsess over these items and i have no idea why.

yea you got a point there too..

also the set includes a near useless item wich forces players to find a substitute for minos legens heavy fort.. wich new players often..

don't find.

whenever i see someone with that set i tend to sometimes myddo them and trust me.. 80% of the people with that set dont have heavy fort on them making them die really really fast.. at the cost of +2 to hit and +2 damage.

WruntJunior

01-04-2012, 01:25 AM

yea you got a point there too..

also the set includes a near useless item wich forces players to find a substitute for minos legens heavy fort.. wich new players often..

don't find.

whenever i see someone with that set i tend to sometimes myddo them and trust me.. 80% of the people with that set dont have heavy fort on them making them die really really fast.. at the cost of +2 to hit and +2 damage.

Which is sad when an outfit from the second series has heavy fort...and a warforged has no excuse at that level for not having 100% fort (moderate fort is cheap).

Funny_looking_mole

01-04-2012, 02:06 AM

The sorta kel set form lordsmarch....honestly i have seen people obsess over these items and i have no idea why.

As a user of the Sora kell set until level 20 on my Lord of Blades I can tell you that it's value is that it provides a number of very handy attributes (wisdom, charisma, strength happen to just be wonderful stats for a FvS) as well as giving True seeing, and of course the +2 to atk/dmg and the most important of all is that it gives greater potency VI, which free's up my hands to melee.

Not the best set, but for some builds it can be very important until level 20.

Dragavon

01-04-2012, 02:54 AM

the problem with that logic is, that every other thing has minor effect, handful of minor things alltho have significent effect. 1 extra con is tiny minor effect, but it can yield ~20 hp.

more over, those minor effects are not isolated within 1 section of build, they can have synergy with each and every other.

those 'tiny details' are what separate ok and great char, make few too many compromises and as result you get noticable drop in gaming experience.

ps at its min level, 20 hps are not even minor thing, for some poor dude, it may be exrta 1/5 :D

As I say, I found it better to get heavy fort another place.

And 20HP 20% of your HP at lvl 11? Must be a poorly built arcane then, my melee chars are usually pushing 200HP around lvl 8-9 ;)

hecate355

01-04-2012, 04:20 AM

As I say, I found it better to get heavy fort another place.

And 20HP 20% of your HP at lvl 11? Must be a poorly built arcane then, my melee chars are usually pushing 200HP around lvl 8-9 ;)

i know, but it DOES happend :)

Matuse

01-04-2012, 06:20 AM

Muckbane. The most overrated item ever.

In half the time people take farming it. They could just level past ever seeing ooze again.

Amazing, you can level all the way from 2 to 14 in an hour? That's a neat trick.

If you want farming, look no further than the number of items you need to melt down in order to get your crafting level high enough to make Everbright as a suffix. Then look at all the money you just melted down to do it for a highly situational weapon that you'll just outgrow after not very long. Compared to running Durk's a few times (seriously, it has about a 1/6 drop rate for the quest, and you can run the quest in under 5 minutes) for Muckbane?

When people say "overrated", they are not referring to the gear choices available to a multi-TR multi-year player who has 8 bank characters crammed with extra gear. Muckbane is and has always been an excellent item for what it does and how easy it is to get. Can it be outdamaged by vastly higher ML and more difficult to obtain items? Yes...it's ML:2 for cripes' sake. But it's also ML:2, not ML:10, and doesn't cost 30,000 platinum worth of crafting materials to level up and construct.

As for overrated items - Mineral 2 weapons. People seriously STILL burn 5 large devil scales on these inferior substitutes for unbound Cannith beaters. The only situation where these are worth even thinking about is if you want a utility effect (Insight +4, Exceptional Wisdom +2, etc) on the top tier of a DR breaker.

Or, if you only used 2 large devil scales to get one...*cough*

Yes, I've felt MinIIs were overrated for a long time. People generally only run Normal on Shroud, and LitII does more damage than MinII...always has.

voodoogroves

01-04-2012, 07:06 AM

The sorta kel set form lordsmarch....honestly i have seen people obsess over these items and i have no idea why.

That set is great for melee-casters like melee bards, FVS or clerics who want weapons in their hands. Non-weapon decent potency is hard to find, certainly at level 11. It doesn't take the Torc slot like the War Chanter necklace and plenty of folks have found better ways/places to slot Heavy Fort (or moderate). I'm sad to say, in my bunch of toons that are "core" (around 8 or so I'm flopping between) only two have Minos in the head slot for heavy fort. From 11-19 it's pretty darn good for those types as their "stable" gear set even if they swap in 75% clickies (or eardweller) for times they need to burst.

It's not so hot for a non-caster or a non-melee caster.

Crazeee

01-04-2012, 08:46 AM

Boots of Anchoring

Dragavon

01-04-2012, 08:49 AM

i know, but it DOES happend :)

Ooooh, I know I know.

I was doing elite Vale back when cap was 16. I pugged a couple of slots and one of the guys that joined was a lvl 16 ranger that turned out to be really squishy. When asked about his HP he said he had 160, and he honestly thought that was good. I was on my rogue with 340 :eek:

Astraghal

01-04-2012, 09:03 AM

That set is great for melee-casters like melee bards, FVS or clerics who want weapons in their hands. Non-weapon decent potency is hard to find, certainly at level 11. It doesn't take the Torc slot like the War Chanter necklace and plenty of folks have found better ways/places to slot Heavy Fort (or moderate). I'm sad to say, in my bunch of toons that are "core" (around 8 or so I'm flopping between) only two have Minos in the head slot for heavy fort. From 11-19 it's pretty darn good for those types as their "stable" gear set even if they swap in 75% clickies (or eardweller) for times they need to burst.

It's not so hot for a non-caster or a non-melee caster.

Actually I think this set is terrible. I didn't even consider it for my melee Bard. I only made the ring because it was a free ML +6 CHA item. The reason a lot of people go for crappy sets is because of their similarity with rare or hard to aquire items, or their epic versions.

Another example of this trend are the capped Barbarians who run around with non-epic claw sets. A lot of new players wear these types of sets because they see veterans trying to fit in FB or Sintao sets, as well as the eClaw set and think they are being uber by getting a similar bonus. But in reality there are way better uses for those slots.

I see the same pattern developing with the Cannith sets. The fact that they are really easily aquired, even for gimps is another contributing factor. I see them as a sort of consolation prize for the more casual player, at least that's what my experience has shown me. Perhaps Turbine was trying to bolster them for increased difficulty levels in the game.

I have found gear is actually a good indication of the player with these types of items, you can tell straight away in most cases the quality of player you are getting by seeing this gear on their capped characters.

That's human nature though, people will always aspire to the latest flavor of the month fad, in order to be one of the cool kids, even if it makes absolutely no sense. Some of the bonuses are nice, but not worth the slots they take up by a long margin.

My opinion of course.. flame away! ;)

Gkar

01-04-2012, 11:15 AM

Agreed. Especially since it's so easy to craft a true chaos everbright or something like that instead for oozes.

Never really understood that one. It's decent.....but meh. Not worth farming for.

It was worth it when level cap was 10 and there were no everbright weapons or crafting in the game.

But now, its handy to have but not worth farming.

MRMechMan

01-04-2012, 12:50 PM

Just curious, if a capped character was wearing a claw set (+2 damage, moderate fort [100% on wf] 10% threat) or a fabricators set (+2 attack, +2 damage, +10/+5 balance, +5 resistance, +6 strength, 25% stacking fort, 10% melee alacrity... and a chance on hitting at +4 stacking str/dex/con, 5% doublestrike and +2 AC....yea, what a CRAPPY choice for 2 slots), what should they be wearing instead that is EASIER to aquire? Not THAT many good bracers/gloves items for melee. Anyone can be unlucky with claw shard pulls, abishai seal/shard pulls etc...would you rather that they not slot ANYTHING than have a stepping stone to better gear?

Basically you are saying that if a capped character is using easy to aquire yet solid gear...thats a red flag? And if they put some kind of obscurely rare item that was less effective it would be OK?

Sure, if I see a barb using sirens set at cap that would raise an eyebrow...or a wizard with ravens eye set...or a fighter using korthos gear at cap...all of which I have seen...but claw set at cap is not the worst thing in the world. Fabricators set is very far from the worst in slot.

How many capped divines and tanks are using teir3 cove armor? That was pretty trivial to get as well. It's also amazing.

*hits lfm*

ding, rejected!

*sends tell*

ah, sorry, while you have many PLs and your gear works well, I'm afraid said gear is just far too COMMON. We're looking for more uniquely equipped players.

I see where you are coming from but get a grip.

somenewnoob

01-04-2012, 12:58 PM

Sure, if I see a barb using sirens set at cap that would raise an eyebrow...or a wizard with ravens eye set...or a fighter using korthos gear at cap...all of which I have seen...but claw set at cap is not the worst thing in the world. Fabricators set is very far from the worst in slot.

heh heh.......I still have my curative cloak from Korthos on my capped fighter. I often link it and offer to be backup healer! :D

God I need to learn to throw things away............

EllisDee37

01-04-2012, 02:47 PM

I didn't get a capped crafter during the early beta ... leveling now is a pain and it's like playing a freaking facebook game. I'm far more likely to, you know, RUN QUESTS than spend the time to get my crafting from the 60s up to where it needs to be to make the big bursters reliably.When I had my crafting levels in the mid 50s I stopped leveling and just deconned for a month or two, slowly eeking my levels up. By the time I finally decided to resume active leveling I was in the low 60s, and the first thing I noticed was that Holy Burst and Greater Lawful Outsider Bane were 50-60% success rate. Within days I crafted my first +5 HBoGLOB.

You only need 70 divine for 100% success w/a 20% booster, and a pack of 25 boosters costs <100 tp. I'd rethink your bet at least regarding devil beaters, since you could reliably make the good ones by tomorrow.

QuantumFX

01-04-2012, 03:37 PM

every melee should have Tharnes set. The name of the game in end-game raiding is aggro control. The glasses and a DT rune are probably a better way to go for most though.

For that much trouble you could go with the Tinkers Finesse set. Same benefits plus Exceptional Seeker +2. The gloves fall from the sky in Elite Schemes of the Enemy and Bulet is *way* effing easier to find than Wrack.

WruntJunior

01-04-2012, 03:44 PM

When I had my crafting levels in the mid 50s I stopped leveling and just deconned for a month or two, slowly eeking my levels up. By the time I finally decided to resume active leveling I was in the low 60s, and the first thing I noticed was that Holy Burst and Greater Lawful Outsider Bane were 50-60% success rate. Within days I crafted my first +5 HBoGLOB.

You only need 70 divine for 100% success w/a 20% booster, and a pack of 25 boosters costs <100 tp. I'd rethink your bet at least regarding devil beaters, since you could reliably make the good ones by tomorrow.

This is mostly accurate...but I would like to add that you still have a significant chance of failure on shards of potential +13 at this level, which is a much more significant cost than you may think when you have multiple toons that need these weapons. (This is of course not true if you have any class of crafting up to 80, but the point remains until then.)

transtemporal

01-04-2012, 04:30 PM

Red Scale Armor: gives extra DPS from the flaming burst on everything, two slots, looks pretty cool. Thing is . . . everything in this game that's hard to kill is either immune to fire or has enough resistance that this provides no additional DPS. Was the highest AC plate in the game but crystal cove changed that. So it's pretty much more DPS against trash, maybe melees can sneak a kill in before the FoD lands.

And the cost . . . it sure is heck ain't worth 20 reds considering what 20 reds will get you regarding other gear.

I agree. The armor looks rad but I don't really see that it's worth the effort. Flaming burst on weaps is about the only argument I can think of. Maybe fire spells, but who goes fire savant at endgame?

Marilith Chain: I personally don't think this was worth it even before update 9 . . . but seeker 10 with the removal of auto-crits and bosses having 80% fort is almost a cruel joke. Don't get me wrong . . . the base item is excellent, seeker 6 on the body frees up other slots. But the DPS difference between seeker 6 and seeker 10 . . . expecially now . . . is statistically insignificant. Was this ever worth the 20-30 reds people were paying for the scroll?

Before, it was just a status thing really. It added a bit more damage, but mostly it was so you could say "look at me nubs, i've got the emc!"

But with the importance of improved shatter on bosses, it's even MORE essential for melees now. And seeing as how Shatter it doesn't appear on many non-weapon items, it's a nice and relatively cheap option.

EllisDee37

01-04-2012, 04:42 PM

This is mostly accurate...but I would like to add that you still have a significant chance of failure on shards of potential +13 at this level, which is a much more significant cost than you may think when you have multiple toons that need these weapons. (This is of course not true if you have any class of crafting up to 80, but the point remains until then.)Very good point. I tend to ignore the potential shards because they only require essences, making them far cheaper than greater outsider banes and their larges/boot ingredients.

I didn't mind crafting the +13 potential at 70% (50% + a 20% booster) but it started to hurt after the second fail. Third time was the charm, and 1500 lesser essences later (ouch!) I was swimming in harry-killing goodness.

transtemporal

01-04-2012, 05:12 PM

Basically you are saying that if a capped character is using easy to aquire yet solid gear...thats a red flag? And if they put some kind of obscurely rare item that was less effective it would be OK?

Yeah, I agree. It's a bit rough to judge when some of that stuff is ok. I would rather a melee was decked out in all epic crystal cove gear than no gear at all.

I don't quite get capped melees who run around in non-epic claw sets, or wield non-epic sos, but I'm more worried by those people who use completely non-sensical fully-upgraded sets, like epic claw on a pure caster. That is a true "***" moment.

We had a pure sorc join an edeeps with the epic claw set and his answer for the claw set was "Why not?". Wasn't even a TR.

MindCake

01-04-2012, 05:54 PM

[...]Wrath of Sora Kell[...]
Actually I think this set is terrible. I didn't even consider it for my melee Bard. I only made the ring because it was a free ML +6 CHA item. The reason a lot of people go for crappy sets is because of their similarity with rare or hard to aquire items, or their epic versions.
Huh?
I'm sorta curious, how is stacking +2 attack/+2 damage, +5/+6 STR, +5/+6 CHA - with ML's matching that of random loot with just the pure +5/+6 STR/CHA, true seeing on the upgraded hat, and some not-too-bad skills a terrible set?

If you'd otherwise need to put STR and WIS/CHA somewhere, the set basically gives you +2 att/+2 damage plus several conveniences for one slot.

sirgog

01-04-2012, 05:58 PM

Astraghal

01-04-2012, 07:01 PM

The Fabricator's Ingenuity set is okay, I tried the bracers when they first came out but the proc rate was terrible to the point of total uselessness. I guess Resistance +5 would be good for those melee's not wearing Epic Cavalry Plate or Epic Envenomed Cloak (best in slot items for many). I'm assuming 10% melee alacrity doesn't stack with Haste. I can't think of 25% stacking fortification really mattering except healing a main tank when a Bard is playing Recklessness (is there a fortification debuff in LoB?). Incite 20% is fine until everyone has it, we all know how difficult it is to get melee's to wear the appropriate gear for aggro control at the best of times. Balance mattering is very situational. This is probably the nicest of the newer sets, but it's still a lot of mediocre effects and nothing really definitive, taking up 2 valuable slots. If they fixed the proc rate on the bracers, those might be worth considering. I'm not even going to start on the Sora Kell set, the helm conflicts with Minos Legens, enough said.

dragon2fire

01-04-2012, 08:19 PM

As a user of the Sora kell set until level 20 on my Lord of Blades I can tell you that it's value is that it provides a number of very handy attributes (wisdom, charisma, strength happen to just be wonderful stats for a FvS) as well as giving True seeing, and of course the +2 to atk/dmg and the most important of all is that it gives greater potency VI, which free's up my hands to melee.

Not the best set, but for some builds it can be very important until level 20.

my issue with it on my fvs is that its only greater potency not sup. i want my heals hitting hard especially on my melee fvs.

Vormaerin

01-04-2012, 08:22 PM

my issue with it on my fvs is that its only greater potency not sup. i want my heals hitting hard especially on my melee fvs.

Which is why you use clickies when you need that... :P

It seems pretty reasonable to trade 10% to get "look ma! No hands!" potency for anyone who wants to hit things with weapons. If you can get superior potency VI on another non weapon item, that's better of course.

moops

01-04-2012, 08:29 PM

every melee should have Tharnes set. The name of the game in end-game raiding is aggro control. The glasses and a DT rune are probably a better way to go for most though.

Amen.

I can't tell you the issues Im having using proven solid tanks, now that many pugs have attained all their epic gear at once and have no clue how it works. It's a game of dice rolls, 2 tanks equipped the same with same stats on some bosses and the main tank is going to lose aggro every now and then--I really begged my guildies to start using their tharnes again or to go out and get it with raids like LOB.

Muckbane--meh it was the first real name item for so many years, I understand the excitement about it.

Blue Dragon Scale--I can go either way on this as my cleric still wears it after 4 years.

voodoogroves

01-04-2012, 08:42 PM

I'm not even going to start on the Sora Kell set, the helm conflicts with Minos Legens, enough said.

You know, I thought this a long long time ago. Then I came to the realization that none of my capped toons was wearing a Minos Legens anymore ... none of them. Now, they don't wear it when they TR either for the most part.

For a melee caster, it's a great slot consolidator providing your key stats AND 40% potency. I can use a 75% clicky when required but frankly, that's really not needed very often.

Do you find you're wearing Minos still on your capped toons? For me, cove hats, chimera's crown, epic comedy mask, abishai, etc. all take those spaces - I'd rather have a gear plan that makes it less juggling when I hit cap.

Astraghal

01-04-2012, 09:04 PM

You know, I thought this a long long time ago. Then I came to the realization that none of my capped toons was wearing a Minos Legens anymore ... none of them. Now, they don't wear it when they TR either for the most part.

For a melee caster, it's a great slot consolidator providing your key stats AND 40% potency. I can use a 75% clicky when required but frankly, that's really not needed very often.

Do you find you're wearing Minos still on your capped toons? For me, cove hats, chimera's crown, epic comedy mask, abishai, etc. all take those spaces - I'd rather have a gear plan that makes it less juggling when I hit cap.

I'd wear Minos Legens until it's features can be consolidated, usualy via epic slots. I've went from a Minos Legens, to an Epic Helm of the Red Dragon and currently I alternate between an Epic Helm of Frost and Seeker +6/Balance +15 pirate hat. The Sora Kell set might be good for small percentage of characters, but in my estimation it's never been worth dedicating 3 slots to. The individual items provide nothing special, have no augment slots or can be found in more efficient arrangement elsewhere. This isn't something I can be 100% empirically corrent on, so I'll just leave it out there as an educated opinion.

k1ngp1n

01-04-2012, 09:08 PM

You know, I thought this a long long time ago. Then I came to the realization that none of my capped toons was wearing a Minos Legens anymore ... none of them.

Unforged is showing the Minos. :P

All of my characters wear the Minos at some point in their life. They don't all keep it, but Fort and stacking 20hp in one slot at level 11 is spectacular.

voodoogroves

01-04-2012, 09:16 PM

Unforged is showing the Minos. :P

All of my characters wear the Minos at some point in their life. They don't all keep it, but Fort and stacking 20hp in one slot at level 11 is spectacular.

Unforged is a PM and only wears the Minos because I still like the way it looks ;-)

I made him a full set of cove hats that are more useful and an Epic Big Top, but they just don't look as cool (well, Big Top does, but that's just a UMD swap).

I've got an monk-archer who is sporting a Minos right now too, and he may be the only one for a while. One FVS is wearing a comedy mask, one is still wearing the Sora Kell set after capping while I hunt the hound bracelet, cleric TR'd and I'm going more tank and he may wear it while he levels a bit this life but I've got him targeted for a Chimera's helm. Rogue wears seeker on the helm and bluff mostly, though she does have. Tactics dude will be using the Undying Gaze for the non-weapon shatter. WF Sorc and artificer are using cannith crafted moderate fort twinkage in consolidated slots.

I'd wear Minos Legens until it's features can be consolidated, usualy via epic slots. I've went from a Minos Legens, to an Epic Helm of the Red Dragon and currently I alternate between an Epic Helm of Frost and Seeker +6/Balance +15 pirate hat. The Sora Kell set might be good for small percentage of characters, but in my estimation it's never been worth dedicating 3 slots to. The individual items provide nothing special, have no augment slots or can be found in more efficient arrangement elsewhere. This isn't something I can be 100% empirically corrent on, so I'll just leave it out there as an educated opinion.
I think this is my point - very good niche use does not mean overblown. Sure, you'd never use it on a rogue ... but for where you'd consider it, it's very good from 11-18/9 until you get better consolidation elsewhere. A melee caster type very well may want all of those 3 stats high, espescially a divine ... toss in the intimidate +13, true seeing, etc. and it's actually a very good consolidator that doesn't compete with the Torc ... something that puts it leaps ahead of the bard Amrath necklaces.

cdr

01-04-2012, 09:17 PM

With heavy fort being Cannith craftable and things like Cove hats existing, it's been a long time since I've used a Minos even while leveling. Toughness is really nice but sacrificable.

noinfo

01-04-2012, 09:29 PM

Astraghal

01-04-2012, 09:34 PM

I think this is my point - very good niche use does not mean overblown. Sure, you'd never use it on a rogue ... but for where you'd consider it, it's very good from 11-18/9 until you get better consolidation elsewhere. A melee caster type very well may want all of those 3 stats high, espescially a divine ... toss in the intimidate +13, true seeing, etc. and it's actually a very good consolidator that doesn't compete with the Torc ... something that puts it leaps ahead of the bard Amrath necklaces.

It does when you consider the amount of people who spend a significant amount of time grinding to unlock this set. I run into many of these types of players when levelling. Like the person who raised it initially said, I can't believe the number of people and degree to which they obsess over aquring this set, for what it actually does.

True Seeing is something you can get in spell, scrolls, clicky or situational swap-in format. I really don't think it's worth listing as a worthwhile feature when it comes to contemplating dedicating 3 slots to. Sorry but there are way better contenders for the helm slot, I think Teraza's Perfect Sight is a terrible choice.

EllisDee37

01-04-2012, 09:58 PM

The sora kell set is made for pallies and umd rangers. I suppose if I squint it sorta looks good for clerics or favored souls, but I'm not rushing out to equip my cleric with it.

My first life paladin and first life umd ranger, though? Oh yeah, big time. I'm pleased as punch to wear them at cap on my first life as I prepare to tr from 28 to 34 point builds. The paladin is first on deck, 2 shroud completions away from his 40th and with the heart of wood already waiting in the bank. Once he hits cap next life he'll be farming up the fabricator's and alchemist's sets, then tring again. Maybe, maybe, when he gets back to cap a second time he'll consider farming epic gear.

As for Minos, I own almost every pack in the game (including the challenge pack, even) but I have none of the necros and have no interest in any of them. With my min2 hp items having heavy fort, minos looks like garbage. Much happier with my thaarak bracers (paladin) and toughness-slotted epic spyglass (umd ranger trapmonkey.)

Astraghal

01-04-2012, 10:19 PM

As for Minos, I own almost every pack in the game (including the challenge pack, even) but I have none of the necros and have no interest in any of them. With my min2 hp items having heavy fort, minos looks like garbage. Much happier with my thaarak bracers (paladin) and toughness-slotted epic spyglass (umd ranger trapmonkey.)

Since Turbine added uber budget epics, junk like the Sora Kell set looks even worse to me.

Edit - These set items need to be looked at in context with the rest of the gear a player is using and they roles they aspire to filling. Until you know the thinking behind it, there are too many variables to make any snap judgements. Ultimately I can only go on my personal experiences, which influence my thoughts and decisions more than anything else.

MRMechMan

01-04-2012, 11:37 PM

Yeah, I agree. It's a bit rough to judge when some of that stuff is ok. I would rather a melee was decked out in all epic crystal cove gear than no gear at all.

I don't quite get capped melees who run around in non-epic claw sets, or wield non-epic sos, but I'm more worried by those people who use completely non-sensical fully-upgraded sets, like epic claw on a pure caster. That is a true "***" moment.

We had a pure sorc join an edeeps with the epic claw set and his answer for the claw set was "Why not?". Wasn't even a TR.

SoS is better damage than ANY greensteel if you have high enough strength. The 18-20/x3 crit damage scales damage mods higher than any other weapon.

Claw set is stacking 2 damage, and if you are warforged, that's your fort item out of the way. Not THAT bad...it doesn't matter if it is a ML7 set, if it is serving it's purpose.

Eclaw set on a sorc isn't stupid anyway...sure the set bonuses are wasted but thats +2 exp con, 30% amp and heavy fort right there...

Throw away your assumptions about gear and actually READ the items maybe...

transtemporal

01-05-2012, 03:58 AM

eClaw set is fine on a fleshie caster - 30% increased scroll healing is huge, and the bracers are just an alternative to Minos in a different slot.

IMO the Gloves are best-in-slot for fleshie Sorcs.

Fair enough. I guess for me, thats mainly a melee set so I'd put it melee toons first before I put it on a caster.

Forzah

01-05-2012, 04:17 AM

People using 3 piece non-epic chrono set bonus at lvl 20... or the Katras wit set thingey.

gloopygloop

01-05-2012, 07:14 AM

It does when you consider the amount of people who spend a significant amount of time grinding to unlock this set. I run into many of these types of players when levelling. Like the person who raised it initially said, I can't believe the number of people and degree to which they obsess over aquring this set, for what it actually does.

True Seeing is something you can get in spell, scrolls, clicky or situational swap-in format. I really don't think it's worth listing as a worthwhile feature when it comes to contemplating dedicating 3 slots to. Sorry but there are way better contenders for the helm slot, I think Teraza's Perfect Sight is a terrible choice.

I agree with Astraghal 100%.

I have no problem with Teraza's Perfect Sight as a BtA Detect Secret Doors clicky for a couple of characters for a few levels until they scrounge up whatever they'll be using for True Seeing, but that's only because I happened to pull it while I was doing the chain for XP and fun anyway. I absolutely agree that it's not at all worth farming the chain for.

Stonedust Handwraps in their various forms (especially Vampiric) are really nice. Maiming Rocksplitters used to be really nice, but that only lasted for a short while. Everything else in the chain is kind of "meh".

gloopygloop

01-05-2012, 07:17 AM

SoS is better damage than ANY greensteel if you have high enough strength.

That is true. But it's also true that just about anyone who has extreme amount of strength is already going to have an eSoS. The extra Strength that you'll need to make a non-epic SoS outperform a LitII Greataxe/Greatsword/Falchion is higher than most people realize.

SirValentine

01-05-2012, 07:52 AM

Made the massive mistake of picking Anger's back in Korthos though.

Note that the Korthos necklaces sometimes drop as chain end rewards from the Phiarlan Carnival, so you can still get the Archivist's Necklace.

dragon2fire

01-05-2012, 09:45 AM

Which is why you use clickies when you need that... :P

It seems pretty reasonable to trade 10% to get "look ma! No hands!" potency for anyone who wants to hit things with weapons. If you can get superior potency VI on another non weapon item, that's better of course.

I do agree you want hands free on a melee fvs.

Vellrad

01-05-2012, 10:48 AM

I wonder why its not listed:
+3 tomes!

I mean, its +0,5 to DC/damage/whatever over +2 tome, and its PITA to get (for me at least, never saw any except shroud's 20th list).

Emili

01-05-2012, 02:48 PM

I wonder why its not listed:
+3 tomes!

I mean, its +0,5 to DC/damage/whatever over +2 tome, and its PITA to get (for me at least, never saw any except shroud's 20th list).

If you're currently even without it ... makes you start thinking of other odd sorces or utilizing 6 AP elsewhere until another adjustment comes along.

transtemporal

01-05-2012, 04:19 PM

SoS is better damage than ANY greensteel if you have high enough strength. The 18-20/x3 crit damage scales damage mods higher than any other weapon.

On paper maybe. I've never seen a non-epic sos outkill anyone.

Claw set is stacking 2 damage, and if you are warforged, that's your fort item out of the way. Not THAT bad...it doesn't matter if it is a ML7 set, if it is serving it's purpose.

Eclaw set on a sorc isn't stupid anyway...sure the set bonuses are wasted but thats +2 exp con, 30% amp and heavy fort right there...

Throw away your assumptions about gear and actually READ the items maybe...

I'm well aware of what the items do. I think putting a primarily melee set on a caster is a waste. If you have eclaw sets for africa, then sure, outfit everyone with them.

hecate355

01-06-2012, 05:26 AM

Amen.

I can't tell you the issues Im having using proven solid tanks, now that many pugs have attained all their epic gear at once and have no clue how it works. It's a game of dice rolls, 2 tanks equipped the same with same stats on some bosses and the main tank is going to lose aggro every now and then--I really begged my guildies to start using their tharnes again or to go out and get it with raids like LOB.

Muckbane--meh it was the first real name item for so many years, I understand the excitement about it.

Blue Dragon Scale--I can go either way on this as my cleric still wears it after 4 years.

Arent you exaggerating? i can see why non tank chars shouldnt have hate generation equipment, but tharnes? It doesent take tharnes set to solve such problem. You simply have to not have huge hate generation bonus while some1 else is trying to tank.

2 scenarios: first, said tank has hate generation gear and is using intimidate and shield, in which case i doubt there will be a problem. second, if said tank is hate tank with hate gear and other dps in group respects the situation(by not using high hate generation gear), then again, there wont be any problem.

Dragavon

01-06-2012, 05:53 AM

gloopygloop

01-06-2012, 06:39 AM

Arent you exaggerating? i can see why non tank chars shouldnt have hate generation equipment, but tharnes? It doesent take tharnes set to solve such problem. You simply have to not have huge hate generation bonus while some1 else is trying to tank.

2 scenarios: first, said tank has hate generation gear and is using intimidate and shield, in which case i doubt there will be a problem. second, if said tank is hate tank with hate gear and other dps in group respects the situation(by not using high hate generation gear), then again, there wont be any problem.

A third scenario is the problem: someone who doesn't have much hate gear and who isn't explicitly built to tank (i.e. they're built to DPS) is tanking because that's the best person available from the 12 people in the party.

Tharnes is very helpful for a DPS melee because it lets you go all-out with your DPS when there is no "real" tank in the party. My Fighter is very glad that he has Tharnes Goggles + Bracers even though he doesn't use them often.

morticianjohn

01-06-2012, 07:25 AM

One piece of kit that was hugely overrated for a while was the hooked blade.

I was busy making GS for my TR project when the pack was new, and never saw any reason to aquire any hooked blades for myself, but everyone else was drooling over them and grinding the quests to death for them.

I am happily using my GS now, but how many do you see running around with hooked blades today? :D

I think it had more to do with the auto crit mechanic. They were using hooked blade to put maiming on rocksplitter for unbelievable damage to held mobs. Remember there was no insta kill at the time so epics were basically hold mob, dreamsplitter, dps, or whatever. The upgraded rocksplitter was by far the best item in terms of cost vs reward.

If they nerf eSoS to make it worse than eAGA you wouldn't say eSoS was totally overrated when you were getting that I was working on my eAGA.

brian14

01-06-2012, 08:32 AM

One piece of kit that was hugely overrated for a while was the hooked blade.

I was busy making GS for my TR project when the pack was new, and never saw any reason to aquire any hooked blades for myself, but everyone else was drooling over them and grinding the quests to death for them.

I am happily using my GS now, but how many do you see running around with hooked blades today? :D
Morticianjon's answer is part of it. The other part is Infectious Hooked Blade. For ML 12 it is pretty awesome, especially if you have Improved Crit Slashing. And yes, I do see people running around with those. Not capped, obviously.

Last time I completed Lordsmarch chain, I took Hooked Blade as reward, bought Blade of Fury for 20k, joined them into Infectious Hooked Blade, and immediately sold it on trade channel for 200k.

voodoogroves

01-06-2012, 08:35 AM

Morticianjon's answer is part of it. The other part is Infectious Hooked Blade. For ML 12 it is pretty awesome, especially if you have Improved Crit Slashing. And yes, I do see people running around with those. Not capped, obviously.

Plus Limb Chopper is pretty fun.

It may not be the most DPS, but it is fun. The dancing belt adds no DPS either, but folks still grind the heck out of them ;-)

If you've got enough other gear and quest knowledge, you have room to be a bit less "perfectly optimized" with your other gear.

Dragavon

01-06-2012, 09:28 AM

I think it had more to do with the auto crit mechanic. They were using hooked blade to put maiming on rocksplitter for unbelievable damage to held mobs. Remember there was no insta kill at the time so epics were basically hold mob, dreamsplitter, dps, or whatever. The upgraded rocksplitter was by far the best item in terms of cost vs reward.

That may be. I ignored epics at the time as I was busy preparing to TR my somewhat gimped main character. Gimped as in I had been away from game for about a year :o

Jaid314

01-06-2012, 02:19 PM

countfitz

01-06-2012, 04:01 PM

hooked blade isn't bad. for the amount of effort to make a hooked blade of your choice, *especially* on a first life, at level, compared to making greensteel, well... i'll agree it's not as good as greensteel. but it's a heck of a lot more available than greensteel (someone pointed out a crafted hooked blade sold for 200k plat. well, 200k plat won't even buy you a greensteel blank, so... considering the difficulty involved, i think the hooked blade isn't a bad deal at all).

in fact, for someone on their first life, or for a character that you're not going to put a lot of effort into gearing up to extreme levels, the lordsmarch crafted stuff is quite good actually. and it isn't hard to make.

Agree. I got my very first toon, a human paladin with some good healing amp, to cap with the falchion that has body feeder and lesser vampirism. Yeah, I didn't contribute any DPS, but I stayed alive in every quest. It was a great weapon. It hasn't been touched in a year and a few TR'd lives, but I remember it fondly. For first life, new to the game people, some of the equipment being discussed IS GREAT.

grandeibra

01-11-2012, 04:53 AM

Imho probably Carnifex. Very nice weapon but slightly worse than quite a few randoms when icy bursted. Keen falchion of good/righteousness for example. Since they are bought very cheaply I feel the amount of farming some seem to do for Carni a bit excessive :)

It used to be Min2. They were never that great against anything just a nice spot saver imo, and cost quite a few LDS. I preferred randomly looted/bought holy silver baners on most toons (or Lit GS on normal)