Sorcerors and faster casting

[SupTyr]

This other thread about class balance got me thinking about the sorcerer...

IMO one benefits from three major advantages when playing a sorcerer (four if you count easy access to UMD):

1. Very high damage output through elemental spells
IMO this is what defines a sorcerer now since the introduction of savant prestige enhancements: Highest possible nuking power on both single target and multi target.

2. Bonus on maximum available Spell Points
Ok, in pnp sorcerers get more spells per rest and that translates to more SP in DDO. I won't argue about this one. (Although... the brightest flame burns quickest, he?)

3. Faster casting
This point is what puzzles me.

The sorcerer is more focused and can cast chosen spells more efficient. But does that mean he can cast them faster? Maybe I missed that point during my pnp time but as far as I know all spell casters cast spells at the same rate (one spell per round).

Faster casting animation means faster reaction which is a huge overall advantage when casting any spell. Less chance of being interrupted. Faster self-healing when playing a warforged. Better chance to hit mobs before they get behind you. ("You are not facing the ..." won't see that message as often when playing a sorcerer.)
Also isn't there a feat for boosting the actual casting speed?

Then add in the reduced cool down on all spells. This effectively makes the sorcerer also the 'king of instakilling'. When facing high-fort monsters even pale masters have to use energy drain before they can finger it. The sorcerer can do this faster and more often than a pale master. (Not talking about completionists here who can wail everything even high-fort+high-sr monsters)
Faster casting also allows the sorcerer to no-fail dance almost everything very quickly and more often than even a skilled archmage can.

I would understand if the sorcerer could *nuke* faster (in addition to harder and longer) than anyone else through reduced cooldowns on evocation spells. Would make sense - although the one that hits hardest doesn't need to hit fastest also. But tell me why should a savant cast energy drain faster (if at all) than a pale master?

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The only downside seems to be the limited selection of spells. But if you look at the level 9 spells for example there are not that many necessary spells. Energy drain, very useful every sorcerer will take this spell. Mass hold works for a sorcerer too on low-will monsters and grants 50% extra damage. Power word kill is obsolete (Energy drain and Finger of Death have same effect) Wail of the Banshee is obsolete too on a savant (maximized+empowered fireball or whatever has usually the same effect and works on undead too) Disjunction would be very usefull - theoretically - but has no use at all in DDO. Time Stop not available. Spell protection spell (forgot the name) not available.

Also keep in mind that through usage of UMD and scrolls the sorcerer is not really the most focused spell caster but rather the most versatile caster who can UMD lots of divine spells too. Not that important though because you can get clickies, pots or cookies for everything now.

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Oh and no I don't hate sorcerers.. Honestly I think with the addition of warforged to the game all the balance went to hell anyway... So don't take this to serious... Just wondering about this faster casting ability and since some officials asked for it I made a post.

[SupTyr]

Well actually my question is just:

Faster casting for sorcerers (and favored souls), is that a DDO house rule or is it based on some D&D standard?

I believe it dates back to the pre-savant era when sorcerers in DDO just had more SP and could cast a little faster which resulted in a slightly higher DPS number but I could be wrong here.

[MrCow]

Faster casting for sorcerers (and favored souls), is that a DDO house rule or is it based on some D&D standard?

Fast casting and reduced cooldowns of spells for sorcerers are a DDO house rule, one that was put in way back at the game's beginning to give an balancing incentive to playing a Sorcerer (the game was a vastly different beast back when the level cap was 10). No other class has fast casting.

When it came time to decide if Favored Souls should have fast casting and/or sorcerer-like spell points, it was decided to not give Favored Souls fast casting (or risk making the cleric vs. favored soul rift greater than it could have been during Module 9).

It should be noted that there is still a 1-second minimum cooldown timer between casting different spells, even if a sorcerer might cast Magic Missile in 0.6 seconds and a Wizard takes 1.1 seconds to cast it

[Gizeh]

Well actually my question is just:

Faster casting for sorcerers (and favored souls), is that a DDO house rule or is it based on some D&D standard?

Faster sorc casting does only exist in DDO. In pnp D&D a spell always has the same casting time regardless of who casts it, eg casting a fireball without applying any metamagic feats is always a standard action.

When applying metamagic feats, things work differently in D&D: Let's take a maximized fireball as example. A maximized spell takes up a spell slot 3 levels higher, so the wizard would have to prepare the spell as a level 6 spell. Casting time will remain a standard action. The sorcerer on the other hand doesn't prepare spells, so he has to apply the feat spontaneously, which prolongs casting time, so for him casting a maximized fireball becomes a full round action.

That doesn't mean wizards can cast metamagic'd spells in pnp D&D with a higher frequency than sorcerers, though. No character can cast more than one spell per round. They just have a move action available before or after casting, while all a sorcerer could do - besides casting his meta'd spell - would be taking a 5 ft step.


@ the OP:

I have to agree that there seems to be no logic in the casting speed difference between caster classes.

It would be far more logical if - regardless of the class - specializing in a spell school or in an element would increase the casting speed of the spells from that school / element.

[SupTyr]

Thank you, MrCow and Gizeh :)

Now that it's clear that it's a house rule, I have another question:

Do you think sorcerers still need the faster casting to stand up against archmages and pale masters? Or could that be considered an unfair advantage?

[Kmnh]

Thank you, MrCow and Gizeh :)

Now that it's clear that it's a house rule, I have another question:

Do you think sorcerers still need the faster casting to stand up against archmages and pale masters? Or could that be considered an unfair advantage?

They do. Without the faster casting sorcerers would need quicken always on to be playable, and many sorcerer builds can't afford the feat loss. Wizards get 5 bonus feats to play with.

[SupTyr]

They do. Without the faster casting sorcerers would need quicken always on to be playable, and many sorcerer builds can't afford the feat loss. Wizards get 5 bonus feats to play with.

But sorcerers get lots of extra sp which they could spent on quickened spells.. It's not that you select the feat and get quickened spells for free...

[morticianjohn]

But sorcerers get lots of extra sp which they could spent on quickened spells.. It's not that you select the feat and get quickened spells for free...

At the moment there are many viable options when playing arcanes. There is no great rift between sorc and wiz that you are perceiving. It is likely that your playstyle fits sorcs better but if they lose the faster casting they will certainly be worse than wizards.

[Aashrym]

But sorcerers get lots of extra sp which they could spent on quickened spells.. It's not that you select the feat and get quickened spells for free...

Casting speed and cooldown timers make a big difference. Something you might want to keep in mind is the typical palemaster can end up with about 3 DC's higher on those necro spells than sorcs with the wizard capstone INT bonus, lich form INT bonus, and actual +1DC lich form bonus. The actual spells start more effective in that sense.

In order to land them we are also looking at spell penetration in some cases. Wizards have bonus feats for spell penetration, school focus, quicken, and other meta's. Number of feats makes a huge difference, not just the SP.

Right now where sorcs shine is direct damage because of SP pool, faster caster, bonus caster levels with the PrE's, better direct damage SLA's, no need for spell penetration on most direct damage spells, bonus damage from curses, bonus damage with the capstone.

The spell lists are the same but they have a lot of differences in actual play. I wouldn't be looking at removing faster casting if that is what you are suggesting or asking. I like the differences the way they are.

[Jaid314]

sorcerers definitely need faster casting to keep up with wizards.

they're a lot weaker in PnP than wizards, truthfully, and the faster casting is to help keep them a reasonable choice (seriously, 5 bonus feats vs no bonus feats on a class that *really* benefits from feats?) especially in light of the fact that DDO wizards basically get spontaneous spellcasting.

of course, they're both still a lot stronger than melee in PnP, and right now DDO hasn't really given melees enough to compensate for that (at least, not without ridiculous amounts of equipment that the casters don't need), but it's starting to swing back towards melees (or at least, towards non-casters) lately... although we don't know yet if it will swing far enough to make things even.

[budalic]

I think you've gotten wiz/sorc comparision kinda wrong:

Sorc's bigger sp pool compensates for wizard ability to swap spells and have more spells.
Sorc's fast casting compensates for wiz 5 extra feats.

Everything else are just capstone/pre differences. So, I see no reason why sorc shouldn't get faster casting. Moreover, wizards probably get better bonuses, overall.

[Gurei]

I know this is a bit late on the draw, but fast casting is very relevant to pnp. In DDO, wizards can use a wider selection of spells NOT counting rests, negating the pnp benefit of sorcs using more spells per day.

I play 2.0 (some house rules its the best version imo) and we recently decided that clerics ought to get spontaneous casting so incredibly helpful spells like cure disease can actually be utilized without the high risk of a wasted memorized spell that day.

I have played a cleric since the change, and although there is no initiative benefits (i.e. faster casting), it FEELS faster due to the spontenaity. Sorc fast-casting is the closest relation to spontaneous casting which had been lost in the pnp -> mmorpg transition.

[Maegin]

I know this is a bit late on the draw, but fast casting is very relevant to pnp. In DDO, wizards can use a wider selection of spells NOT counting rests, negating the pnp benefit of sorcs using more spells per day.

I play 2.0 (some house rules its the best version imo) and we recently decided that clerics ought to get spontaneous casting so incredibly helpful spells like cure disease can actually be utilized without the high risk of a wasted memorized spell that day.

I have played a cleric since the change, and although there is no initiative benefits (i.e. faster casting), it FEELS faster due to the spontenaity. Sorc fast-casting is the closest relation to spontaneous casting which had been lost in the pnp -> mmorpg transition.

In later leves of PnP, the gap between the wizards versatility and the sorcs number of spells per day evens out. Getting upwards to 25-30+ spells being cast a day, kinda smears the line between balance, and then it all comes back down to feats, which the wizard still hold the leverage, BUT both still cast a ******** amount of spells per day. Usually, I never cast all my wizard spells, so the versatility wins out :P

Faster animation just says, "Hey, I'm a sorc, I'm supposed to cast more than the wizard, and to make it feel that way, Ill cast faster, since I have more mana (in this case, instead of more spells per day) to make it look like I have more casting that the wizard." and for DDO, it works perfect, if not better, since there really is only a few spells (save the ones that can be scrolled) that make a difference in the game, tbh.

Heh, DDO lost the ability to use spells out side of the box to win, and now its just different combos, to make the same results :/ DPS. If thats the case, faster casting animation is a blessing, and should stay. Wizards get !!!!!5 BONUS FEATS!!!!!, and (non store pot) !!!!!FREE!!!!! SPELL SWAPING, making build choices and game transitioning very very smooth, so wizards have it good too. It's balanced. Versatility and transtitioning vs consistancy and faster pacing. :p seems legit.

[SupTyr]

Ok you convinced me on the reduced cool downs and the bonus to max SP. Like in pnp the sorc would spam cast 6 fireballs in a row and the wizard would have only 3 level 3 spell slots with one fireball, one lightning and maybe a haste. So more rotation on the wizard side and more repeatable spells for the sorc.

Still don't understand why the sorcerer also get a faster casting animation...

[Aashrym]

Ok you convinced me on the reduced cool downs and the bonus to max SP. Like in pnp the sorc would spam cast 6 fireballs in a row and the wizard would have only 3 level 3 spell slots with one fireball, one lightning and maybe a haste. So more rotation on the wizard side and more repeatable spells for the sorc.

Still don't understand why the sorcerer also get a faster casting animation...

For balance reasons originally. For balance reasons now. More SP doesn't mean as much when there is a lot of SP available. Swapping spells is handy while leveling but becomes less useful later on. 5 bonus feats is a lot when it comes to spell casting.

The faster casting is entirely house-ruled so sorcs have another advantage and pretty much the opposite of what happens in PnP.

I think the differences between the classes as implemented is a success, tbh.

[sephiroth1084]

Still don't understand why the sorcerer also get a faster casting animation...
This is not pen and paper D&D.

Wizards get better spell selection and 5 bonus feats.
Sorcerers get more mana, which doesn't equal the power wizards get, so they got faster casting as well.

You may think that sorcs are the kings of insta-kills, but you'd be wrong. If anything, the two classes are basically even, where wizards have the better Spell Penetration and DCs, and sorcerers can get the spells out faster and more frequently. Before PrEs were introduced, and before the spell pass from last spring, sorcerers were regarded as being almost strictly better than wizards. Now, the two are fairly even, with wizards coming out ahead in most situations. Faster casting is fine.

[SupTyr]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently. That's what got me thinking btw.

Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?

[sephiroth1084]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently. That's what got me thinking btw. Why do new players who have seen less than 1/3 of the game always insist upon making sweeping judgments of character balance?



Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?Without faster casting, you would need Quicken eventually.

If you want to insta-kill or crowd control, you'll want Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.

If you want better saves, you may want a feat (wizards often pick up Insightful Reflexes, which is not only very excellent, but heads above the sorcerer's equivalent of Force of Personality).

Extend is useful if you're going to be buffing a lot.

Heighten is very important for CC and insta-kills.

Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in one of Necromancy or Enchantment are very strong if you want to CC or insta-kill.

Shield Mastery and Shield Proficiency are very useful on casters that can take some hits and want to be sturdier.

Arcane Initiate (wizard past life) for +1 to DCs and some free Magic Missiles.

Mental Toughness for more SP.

The fact is, human wizards still don't have enough feats for everything they'd want, and sorcerers are 5 feats behind wizards.

Wizards end up with +2 to their DCs on Necro or Enchantment spells usually before accounting for PrE abilities from their ability to afford Greater Spell Focus in one, or both, of those schools (+4 total for PMs and some AMs), and without counting the capstone (up to +5) or the wizard past life feat (up to +6) above what sorcerers can typically achieve. Wizards also likely have 4 more points of Spell Penetration, due to being able to afford the feats.

On top of that, wizards can carry the debuffs and niche spells needed to land their spells or to most efficiently approach certain challenges, while sorcerers have to rely on a more general set of spells, sometimes having to use more spells to complete a given task due to their having to rely on less efficient ones, which erodes some of the benefit of having around 30-50% more SP.

[Jaid314]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently. That's what got me thinking btw.

Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?

well, that depends. do you like your spells to land? you'll want heighten if so. also spell pen and greater spell pen. that's already your 3 feats right there. quicken if you're a warforged.

of course, if you're fine with failing miserably to land spells on difficult targets (ie the only ones people care about), then feel free to leave those off of your feat list.

additionally, if you're going to even make it to within 3 points of a wizard's DC in spells that matter for DC (and believe me, +3 DC is WAY bigger of a difference than it sounds), you WILL need to take spell focus and greater spell focus, not just in either evocation or conjuration, but also in necromancy or enchantment.

furthermore, just because level 9 has relatively few useful spells (though your opinion of the value of certain spells is imo quite off) doesn't mean that limited spell selection is not a drawback. try picking your level 5 spells now that the DoTs are out, or level 4, or level 6, or level 2. a wizard can take spells that are sometimes amazing but sometimes not depending on the quest, a sorcerer has a much harder time fitting in a lot of situationally useful spells like knock, disintegrate, acid fog, solid fog, mind fog, mass suggestion, dimension door, enervate, etc.

[Saravis]

Bonus feats... maybe these compensate the wizards for the insane high damage the sorcerers can dish out?

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently.

Sorcerers dominate lower level content, but once you hit 17 or so wizards have a distinct advantage.


Also: Maximize, Empower, Spellfocus, Toughness, What other feats would you like (need) on a sorc?

heighten, spell pen, greater spell pen, various spell focuses (evo, conj, ench), various greater spell focuses (same)

[SupTyr]

Without faster casting, you would need Quicken eventually.
If you want to insta-kill or crowd control, you'll want Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.
If you want better saves, you may want a feat (wizards often pick up Insightful Reflexes, which is not only very excellent, but heads above the sorcerer's equivalent of Force of Personality).
Extend is useful if you're going to be buffing a lot.
Heighten is very important for CC and insta-kills.
Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in one of Necromancy or Enchantment are very strong if you want to CC or insta-kill.
Shield Mastery and Shield Proficiency are very useful on casters that can take some hits and want to be sturdier.
Arcane Initiate (wizard past life) for +1 to DCs and some free Magic Missiles.
Mental Toughness for more SP.


Yeah, why not also get a Dragonmark while you're at it ;)

[SupTyr]

well, that depends. do you like your spells to land? you'll want heighten if so. also spell pen and greater spell pen. that's already your 3 feats right there.

Heighten ok, could cast web with firewall on top and wait a while. But why so complicated when I can raydown everything from a distance (mousebutton2) and if the mobs ever come close drop off one/two maximized empowered fireballs (mousebutton3) That will take care of everything except the enemy rogues who will fall to the party barb (or if he is lazy I push mb2 again for the no-save ray).

But yeah, someone mentioned it, this isn't PnP, this is more a MMO now with raid bosses, challenges and epic scroll farming. The sorcerer is probably just the best suited class for this scenario anyway.

Still miss my PnP or Baldur's Gate (better be careful with those fireballs!!)

[budalic]

Heighten ok, could cast web with firewall on top and wait a while. But why so complicated when I can raydown everything from a distance (mousebutton2) and if the mobs ever come close drop off one/two maximized empowered fireballs (mousebutton3) That will take care of everything except the enemy rogues who will fall to the party barb (or if he is lazy I push mb2 again for the no-save ray).

But yeah, someone mentioned it, this isn't PnP, this is more a MMO now with raid bosses, challenges and epic scroll farming. The sorcerer is probably just the best suited class for this scenario anyway.

Still miss my PnP or Baldur's Gate (better be careful with those fireballs!!)

a) you won't use fireballs against raid bosses/in epics. probably not in high-level content too

b) ironically, while global sorc/wizard balance is much-discussed question (imo, WF sorc is a bit better, but it might be because i have a wizard, and grass is always greener on other side of fence), most players agree wizards are better for scroll farming.

EDIT: changed wording to make it more clear

[Jaid314]

Heighten ok, could cast web with firewall on top and wait a while. But why so complicated when I can raydown everything from a distance (mousebutton2) and if the mobs ever come close drop off one/two maximized empowered fireballs (mousebutton3) That will take care of everything except the enemy rogues who will fall to the party barb (or if he is lazy I push mb2 again for the no-save ray).

But yeah, someone mentioned it, this isn't PnP, this is more a MMO now with raid bosses, challenges and epic scroll farming. The sorcerer is probably just the best suited class for this scenario anyway.

Still miss my PnP or Baldur's Gate (better be careful with those fireballs!!)

the no-save ray takes time and SP. it also doesn't breach spell resistance without the right feats. it is also single target. it is a massively inferior solution as compared to getting your DCs to a good level, because eventually without good DCs you will have to use level drain effects multiple times to have them work on a single target.

it also heightens your SLAs for free, which means that your fireball (or whatever equivalent you use) gets evaded a lot less.

there is no substitute for high save DCs. there are workarounds that can be somewhat good, but they are never going to be as good as simply having high save DCs to begin with. yes, you *can* choose to be effective with only a tiny portion of the things an arcane is good at. but why would you want to deliberately choose to be ineffective in an area where you can be quite strong?

[Aashrym]

...(imo, WF sorc is a bit better, but it might be because i have a wizard, and grass is always greener on other side of fence), most players agree wizards are better for scroll farming.

The funny thing about this is losing another feat compared to human, racial CHA penalty, and losing access to racial enhancement bonuses to CHA or drow racial bonus for some survivability. At least 3 CHA loss translates into 1-2 more DC's of potential depending on equipment to go with the feat crunch for some survivability. I ended up human and cross-classing UMD over going WF.

Greener grass continued to be green. :D

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, why not also get a Dragonmark while you're at it ;)
Fail

[Saravis]

Dunno but my sorc single shots almost everything from waterworks to sands currently.

This begs the question do you have a high level sorcerer? If not, then you're in no position to be debating the effectiveness of a sorcerer. Level your sorc to 20, run epics, and then try to repost your arguments.

[Zachski]

Wizards are better at crowd control, due to their better feat selection and PrEs, than Sorcerer. Sorcerer is better at DPS, and mostly because of his faster casting speed (one could argue that since Sorcerers are literally naturals at magic, they are able to work the complicated magics as if it was second nature, whereas a Wizard has to carefully cast spells for fear of missing a step and causing half of their cranium to explode)

However, bearing in mind that Wizard CC in end-game boils down to "I point at that group of enemies, and they die instantly. The stragglers get held."

[Mrmorphling]

You can't judge a class by the gameplay up to Sands because early levels are so easy and fast that a moderate amount of knowledge will do wonders on any class.

Sorcerers are blazing fast to level up to 18 then they start to lose some ground when HP of mobs rise in the high thousands where elemental resists start to be widespread where a single Wail of the Banshee will 'nuke' 2/3 times faster than any damage spell combo.

And Sorcerers really struggle to reach meaningfull DC and spell penetration without an hefty amount of Past lives due to the lack of feats (hard to fit both spell penetration and spell focuses) and due to the fact that their PRE are focused on damage and not on raising DC (like Wizards' ones).

So, in the end, leave the fast cast as a perk as at the moment they are perfectly balanced with pros (better sustained and spike DPS on bosses) and cons (worse trash managment of high HP non DW mobs)

[SupTyr]

Just because I parked my sorceress in the sands doesn't necessarily mean I have no clue what's going on in end game.

Example #1) Today in Sins of Attrition, Air Savant in the party, ZAPZAPZAP Orthons drop like flies, other party without savant but two wizzies was a lot harder and took a while longer to complete
Example #2) Solo Epic Quests, Partycrashers, yet to see a wizard solo it, sorcerers do it with (little) effort
Example #3) Challenges, Level 20 upon entering the Dragon Hoard, sorcerer to party: "I go kill the dragon."

Noticed that all 3 examples are about high HP monsters?

IMO sorcerers gain power compared to other classes as the mobs HP go up.

Sure solid melee or wizards can do epics and have fun too. But when time is limited like in the new challenges...

[budalic]

Just because I parked my sorceress in the sands doesn't necessarily mean I have no clue what's going on in end game.

Example #1) Today in Sins of Attrition, Air Savant in the party, ZAPZAPZAP Orthons drop like flies, other party without savant but two wizzies was a lot harder and took a while longer to completed
Example #2) Solo Epic Quests, Partycrashers, yet to see a wizard solo it, sorcerers do it with (little) effort
Example #3) Challenges, Level 20 upon entering the Dragon Hoard, sorcerer to party: "I go kill the dragon."

Noticed that all 3 examples are about high HP monsters?

IMO sorcerers gain power compared to other classes as the mobs HP go up.

Sure solid melee or wizards can do epics and have fun too. But when time is limited like in the new challenges...

You do realise that wizards are asked for more in epic groups?
That at least one 'Nerf Pale Masters' thread appears on forums daily?
That a lot of posters that know something about this game complain that necromancy-specced with 44+ DCs are soloing gods, and trivialise the game?

Or that best strategy for sorcs isn't 'ZAPZAPZAP', but clumping big piles of mobs and then using AoE damage abilites to kill them?

That Sins of Attrition is laughable quest for judging power of anything?

That FvS is better than both wizard or sorc?

[Vanquishedfo]

its actualy more then a house rule its a clear sign of devs spitting upon the face of D&D. AND WIZARDS.

In PnP meta feats are much more easily used by wizards then sorcerers. If a sorc wants to use a meta feat he either has to spend a longer time casting it then normal. Or he has to prep it at the beginning of the day like a wiz effectively removing his advantage of casting any spell he knows with that slot.

In pnp for example a wizard npc in a mod I ran did the following in one round. He drank a potion of haste from his masterwork potion belt( free action) used the extra action from haste to summon I think it was a super big ol giant spider, used his quickened Ddoor, and walked away to let his pet soften up the party, and since he hadnt even used his main turn of action yet once he arrived on a hill about 100 feet away via the Ddoor he summoned a meteor swarm down on thier heads. Quicken was the most worthless of feats for sorc btw because unless they did prep a spell with it, the inherently slowe use of metas of sorc countered any possible advantage quicken could give.

[Mrmorphling]

Just because I parked my sorceress in the sands doesn't necessarily mean I have no clue what's going on in end game.

Example #1) Today in Sins of Attrition, Air Savant in the party, ZAPZAPZAP Orthons drop like flies, other party without savant but two wizzies was a lot harder and took a while longer to complete
Example #2) Solo Epic Quests, Partycrashers, yet to see a wizard solo it, sorcerers do it with (little) effort
Example #3) Challenges, Level 20 upon entering the Dragon Hoard, sorcerer to party: "I go kill the dragon."

Noticed that all 3 examples are about high HP monsters?

IMO sorcerers gain power compared to other classes as the mobs HP go up.

Sure solid melee or wizards can do epics and have fun too. But when time is limited like in the new challenges...

1) Any PM can solo Sins normal in under 10 mins and a good geared, well played one can solo elite in under 20 minutes (Around 15 actually if you try for speed run); plus, at least on normal, scaling doesn't affet wizzy too much as insta death are landing 95% while increased HP are slowing down sorc.

2) You can do with nearly any caster but it's not exaclty time effective as, soloing, is hard to cut below 35/40 mins while a half decent party can do in half time; nonetheless gz to the sorc as a pure one no evasion need quite a bit of twitch skill to do the trap part w/o disabling.

3) Again any caster can solo nearly all lvl 20 and lvl 21 challanges; dragon is a matter of 1 minute for a wizard aswell (it usually die within an eardweller charge while soloing, little more in full party at lvl 20). I agree that sorc might be faster in killing trash #lvl 21 and above due to blanket immunities especially with a full party.

Both classes have advantages but, honestly, soloing epics and challanges is not a sorc's perk.

[Zachski]

its actualy more then a house rule its a clear sign of devs spitting upon the face of D&D. AND WIZARDS.


And what great data have you put into this assessment? What number crunching? What comparisons have you made between the classes?

None.

Wizards are still the top class of the game. A sorcerer is great for bosses, yes, but so are wizards, and only by a slim margin behind them. When it comes to boss beating, a Sorcerer is Queen, and Wizard is Bishop. When it comes to trash killing and everything else, Wizard is Queen while Sorcerer is but a pawn hoping the wizard doesn't turn his fearful insta-death gaze on the enemies he's trying to nuke to death, or even try to insta-death himself while suffering from having far less spell penetration and less DCs than the superior Wizard.

Wizards of any race can self-heal with the power of Pale Master. Which also boosts their powerful instant-kills.

Sorcerers can also self heal if they are a Warforged, but they take a hit to their primary casting stat to do so, while Wizard takes no such penalty.

I swear, I'm tired of these purists who insist that any change from the standard 3.5 rules, heavily flawed as they are, is an abomination and thus spitting on the face of whatever. if anything, D&D 3.5 spits on the face of Sorcerers.

Sorcerers sucked in D&D. They absolutely did. Their prestiges sucked, too. Turbine went "Hey, if we want to offer this class to the players, we'd better make sure it's on par with the wizards and their massive array of useful spells. Let's make them cast faster."

I dare say it's one of the definitively GOOD moves they made.

So, excuse me while I shake my head at your post which just absolutely praises the fact that Sorcs sucked while Wizards rocked, and you act like Turbine hates D&D when Wizards STILL rock, it's just that Sorcs rock, too, now.

When it comes to parties, by the way, the intelligent ones will want a wizard much more than they will want a sorcerer. So... no spitting on your precious wizards here, bucko.

[budalic]

Wizards are still the top class of the game.

I agree with your most of things you wrote, except for fact I consider sorcs about equal to wizards (wf sorcs, that is; don't have high opinion regading fleshie sorcs).

But top class of game is FvS.

[Isharah]

Don't forget that fleshie sorcs can heal both themselves and other people with heal scrolls. :P Perhaps not as efficiently as WF do, but they expend no SP for it, require no spell slot for repair, and have better DCs.

[Sarisa]

Regarding Epic Partycrashers: This is not really an effective judge. Any caster can solo it without resources once you know the tricks. I did it on my CLERIC, it was just too long to be efficient. 30-35 minutes with my Sorc, almost 70 minutes with my Cleric due to my much lower damage capability. I regularly see PM's solo it and open the chests up for looting at the end on Sarlona.

For the wave of spikes, Wind Dance jets you jump over them before they rise, and there is a spot you can safely jump to by the fountain if you time it right. Everyone with the House C pack can get an Abundant Step effect with Cannith Boots of Propulsion. My Cleric just DI's herself, usually I can time the fountain jump right but I'll still live even if I don't. If you don't live, you only waste a 5 minute reset and a small repair bill.

For the air jet and will save based spike traps, summons can work. Then you just play the waiting game. I think MrCow's videos show you more ways to avoid the jets.

Regarding fleshy vs. Warforged: I went Human (Air Savant) on my Sorc life. I personally don't like the Warforged race, even though for survival, they are better than any other race. I already had several decent robes made from my first life as a Wizard, and for future lives as a Clonk, then a FvS, that I didn't want to grind out replacement Docents.

I also like the extra DC's. Sure, they don't match the DC's my Wizard had, but they are still useful enough to land Webs well, and the occasional Mass Hold or insta-kill in the House P, D, VoN, and Fens epics. My Web was effective enough in eVoN3 (along with the damage a Sorc can dish out) that I wasn't a wasted spot.

In tough spots (harried, surrounded by high damage mobs), I might not make it out alive while a Warforged would, but normally I'm only slightly behind Warforged in survival.

Without the faster casting, Sorc would still be played, but wouldn't have nearly the same effectiveness at their niche (dealing massive burst damage), and would compare rather poorly to Wizards.

[morticianjohn]

Just because I parked my sorceress in the sands doesn't necessarily mean I have no clue what's going on in end game.

Example #1) Today in Sins of Attrition, Air Savant in the party, ZAPZAPZAP Orthons drop like flies, other party without savant but two wizzies was a lot harder and took a while longer to complete
Example #2) Solo Epic Quests, Partycrashers, yet to see a wizard solo it, sorcerers do it with (little) effort
Example #3) Challenges, Level 20 upon entering the Dragon Hoard, sorcerer to party: "I go kill the dragon."

Noticed that all 3 examples are about high HP monsters?

IMO sorcerers gain power compared to other classes as the mobs HP go up.

Sure solid melee or wizards can do epics and have fun too. But when time is limited like in the new challenges...

you are arguing with people who have played a wizard and sorcerer to lvl 20 and making false assumptions about their capabilities because you haven't tried it for yourself. Your view of each class is skewed by those you observe. A good sorcerer will be better than a mediocre wizard this doesn't prove anything about the balance between the classes.

[Warinx]

I think the fast casting is meant to emulate the fact that sorcerors in PnP can cast the same spell over and over, without needing to memorize it twice.

It's to make up for the bonus that wizards get because they only need to memorize once.

[SupTyr]

You do realise that wizards are asked for more in epic groups?

Have to agree on this one. IMO wizards are better team players. When playing my wizard I often get asked 'What quest next?' and people even consider adding me as a friend. On my sorc not so much, the groups likely disband soon after quest completion (unless it's a TR zerg party). Wonder why... I only try to help people...

"Aerie, buff me for big boss fight!" - "What do you mean? The boss isn't dead. He is standing over th..." - "Oh!"


That at least one 'Nerf Pale Masters' thread appears on forums daily?
That a lot of posters that know something about this game complain that necromancy-specced with 44+ DCs are soloing gods, and trivialise the game?

Haven't seen any of those threads lately.. Also think it's a myth... At low level PMs don't have access to instakill spells (while sorcs throw max+emp fireballs). Ok, at higher levels PM can rule the kill count with some effort but - look at my example about the orthons - sorcs can be trash killers just as well ... if not better because of spell resistance, mob saves (high hp also means high fort), ranged nuking (wail requires to get in touch!) and last but not least faster casting.


Or that best strategy for sorcs isn't 'ZAPZAPZAP', but clumping big piles of mobs and then using AoE damage abilites to kill them?
He was casting eletric loop and chain lightning. With the quick casting of a sorc it was actually more like one 'ZzaaZzaaapppp!' once per room and all the Orthons and most other trash fell to the ground.


That Sins of Attrition is laughable quest for judging power of anything?
Is that so? Could you maybe provide the reason why it is laughable?

As to the soloing of epic quests there is another thread now. It's only one page but I think it already proved that if you want to solo epics you're better off to roll a sorcerer.

[budalic]

Don't really know why i'm continuing this...


Haven't seen any of those threads lately.. Also think it's a myth... At low level PMs don't have access to instakill spells (while sorcs throw max+emp fireballs). Ok, at higher levels PM can rule the kill count with some effort but - look at my example about the orthons - sorcs can be trash killers just as well ... if not better because of spell resistance, mob saves (high hp also means high fort), ranged nuking (wail requires to get in touch!) and last but not least faster casting

No, they aren't better. They can be as fast as wiz by clumping mobs, though.



As to the soloing of epic quests there is another thread now. It's only one page but I think it already proved that if you want to solo epics you're better off to roll a sorcerer.

What thread?

As far as Sins of Attrition goes, my friend could do normal on FvS in 4 mins before wing nerf (that was before my FvS got to 20). If you solo elite on caster and can't do it in 15 mins, you suck. Same for party, but it takes a bit longer due to dungeon scaling... about 20 mins is 'teh suck line' in party.
It's hypereasy.

[Zachski]

I agree with your most of things you wrote, except for fact I consider sorcs about equal to wizards (wf sorcs, that is; don't have high opinion regading fleshie sorcs).

I actually don't have a high opinion of WF sorcs, since the Sorc essentially goes "I'm-a kill it before it kills me", and has UMD to heal themselves.

That being said, Sorcs aren't too far behind Wizards when it comes to overall usefulness, but then a lot of players treat that "not too far" as "miles away"

However, Wizards have a lot of flexibility with spells, meaning they can take the damage AND the CC spells. Sorcs have to choose.

Then again, I play a half-elf with FVS dilly, so go figure.



But top class of game is FvS.

Mmm, true, I guess... though it's mostly Wizards you hear complaints about, not Souls.

[sephiroth1084]

Play the game for another year, then come back and talk about this.

Sins of Attrition is not some proving ground. Favored Souls were soloing it in under 10 minutes and doing a better job of it than wizards and sorcerers were. Pale Masters just walk through the quest; it isn't hard. The only time I kill anything on my PM in there is when I need to hit a switch to open a door and can't through all the attacks coming in. Then I Circle of Death, Wail and open the door.

There are fewer complaints about favored souls and sorcerers than Pale Masters, because PMs just stop everyone else from doing anything. Circle, Wail, Finger to clean up, and no one gets to swing a weapon. The other classes (PrEs) don't really bring that same level of non-interaction to the table as a group (individual exceptions exist).

[Desdemonte]

Something here has always nagged me: Why *is* it that Wizzies get so many feats where as Sorcs are so feat-starved. It *can't* be just due to a slightly larger mana pool and slightly faster casting..... If so, I think *that's* the part that is way out of balance. Even if a Wiz takes Quicken as one of those feats, that leaves 4 more, and casting time is pretty much the same.

[sephiroth1084]

Something here has always nagged me: Why *is* it that Wizzies get so many feats where as Sorcs are so feat-starved. It *can't* be just due to a slightly larger mana pool and slightly faster casting..... If so, I think *that's* the part that is way out of balance. Even if a Wiz takes Quicken as one of those feats, that leaves 4 more, and casting time is pretty much the same.
Because in Pen and Paper the writers thought that spontaneous casting (ability to cast any of your known spells in any combination you like at a specific level when needed instead of having to use only the exact spells you prepared) was much stronger than prepared casting, and that the extra spell slots, in addition to that, that sorcerers have over wizards warranted some balance on the other side, so wizards received bonus feats. DDO follows the PnP rules when it can, whether they always make sense or not.

In DDO, all of that translates to sorcerers getting more SP and faster casting speed, which, for a long time, made them much better than wizards, but now that the game has shifted, and we have more spells at each level that are useful and worth carrying and situations where high DCs and Spell Pen are rather important, the two are largely balanced.

Ultimately, I feel that all characters need more feats. Everyone should be gaining some bonus feats. These should be tied to character level, and not class level, so that players aren't jiggering around with multiclassing to take advantage. Pathfinder, Paizo's continuation of the 3.5 D&D model that DDO is based on, changed the feat progression from 1 per 3 character levels to 1 every other level (7 feats to 10 feats), which is one of my favorite changes in the system.

[Madryoch]

its actualy more then a house rule its a clear sign of devs spitting upon the face of D&D. AND WIZARDS.

In PnP meta feats are much more easily used by wizards then sorcerers. If a sorc wants to use a meta feat he either has to spend a longer time casting it then normal. Or he has to prep it at the beginning of the day like a wiz effectively removing his advantage of casting any spell he knows with that slot.

In pnp for example a wizard npc in a mod I ran did the following in one round. He drank a potion of haste from his masterwork potion belt( free action) used the extra action from haste to summon I think it was a super big ol giant spider, used his quickened Ddoor, and walked away to let his pet soften up the party, and since he hadnt even used his main turn of action yet once he arrived on a hill about 100 feet away via the Ddoor he summoned a meteor swarm down on thier heads. Quicken was the most worthless of feats for sorc btw because unless they did prep a spell with it, the inherently slowe use of metas of sorc countered any possible advantage quicken could give.

Yeah this is all a conspiracy against wizards right? Cmon people realise this is NOT D&D and that this is BASED on D&D. If u want it the way d&d is made then i d like to see how often u as a wizard would be using metamagics ... with how many spell slots per day ? i d like ot see u prepare them and then when u run out of spells to cast watch u pike ... there are always two sides of the coin so stop bringing this useless ''unlike d&d" argument here. This is an MMO. If u wanted it like D&D allow sorcs to be pale masters too because they can be. Allow each class to take moer than one PRE. I d like to see maximize just give u the maximum numerical result possible and not add 100% to the damage ,then u d see what the 20% extra capstone damage would mean or the extra caster lvls of sorc.I d like to see wizards prepare a certain number of spells and not be spontaneous casters.Remove enhancements ... oh wait ... this no longer is DDO.And since u wanna go on about D&D so much ... think for a change why do people think that wizards are better in ur pnp ? Cause sorcs are underpowered.Does that mean they should remain so ?

To the person i quoted i ll say this ... yes that's one situation where a well prepared wizard is more effective okay ? Okay tell what would a wizard do in actual war? nothing ... they d have 2 offensive spells 3 miscelaneous 1-2 protection spells and once they are out of em ... there u go u sit and wait only. While a sorc can alter all the spells to being the ones they need ... If one of the two will end up running out of spells first it certainly is the wizard. How about a situation where u don't know what u are gonna be fighting and u end up preparing spells that the opponent is immune?

The OP obviously hasn't realised the difference between the two classes since he has his sorc parked up to the sands. Till that point neither death effects spamming nor cc is really needed. In fact most of the mobs he 's fought with so far are just undead...And yes normal sins or whatever is a joke . I wanna see how sorcs fare in harder episc than partycrashers ... where ur spell pen actually counts and where u ll have to use 1/3 of ur sp bar to take down a mob...

Sorcs are mainly aoe massive damage dealers as well as single target boss destroyers. Wizards are insta kill and cc masters. It is true that if a sorc gains gear he can be very good in the second area as well while maintaining his god status in the primary one.Yet a sorc will never get the high dcs a wizard can get with the same gear. Also the gear required for that is close to the best attainable.


Finally what was this funny comment of the OP. Wizards are more team players than sorcs. The fact that u play ur sorc that way doesn't mean all sorsc are that way. The fact you ve groupped with ******** sorcs who are not teamplayers doesn't mean all are like that. The fact that sorcs DO get limited number of spells is what limits them from helping you with ur buffs and not the fact that they don't like being team players. Why don't u have team play expectations from a barbarian ? And btw most sorcerers who are worth somethine they tend to scroll heal whenever is needed. If u want to be useful ? why don't u play archmage and go let's say enchantment and necromancy spec? so u can cast minimal sp cost CC and have very high dcs on ur insta kills ? Everybody is thinking OMG pale masters are so overpowered...

[Madryoch]

Because in Pen and Paper the writers thought that spontaneous casting (ability to cast any of your known spells in any combination you like at a specific level when needed instead of having to use only the exact spells you prepared) was much stronger than prepared casting, and that the extra spell slots, in addition to that, that sorcerers have over wizards warranted some balance on the other side, so wizards received bonus feats. DDO follows the PnP rules when it can, whether they always make sense or not.

In DDO, all of that translates to sorcerers getting more SP and faster casting speed, which, for a long time, made them much better than wizards, but now that the game has shifted, and we have more spells at each level that are useful and worth carrying and situations where high DCs and Spell Pen are rather important, the two are largely balanced.

Ultimately, I feel that all characters need more feats. Everyone should be gaining some bonus feats. These should be tied to character level, and not class level, so that players aren't jiggering around with multiclassing to take advantage. Pathfinder, Paizo's continuation of the 3.5 D&D model that DDO is based on, changed the feat progression from 1 per 3 character levels to 1 every other level (7 feats to 10 feats), which is one of my favorite changes in the system.

Yeap pathfinder ftw. It also balanced sorcs and wizards a bit there too and had lots of nice changes not only the one u just mentioned :D Sorc bloodlines ftw

[budalic]

Yeap pathfinder ftw. It also balanced sorcs and wizards a bit there too and had lots of nice changes not only the one u just mentioned :D Sorc bloodlines ftw

Don't want to sound too offensive, but....

Pathfailure sucks.

Flame away.

[Madryoch]

Don't want to sound too offensive, but....

Pathfailure sucks.

Flame away.

why wouldi flame :D personal preference is okay with me :D i just liked certain changes that were made in pathfinder, The world now is a different matter if u are referring to it :P same goes for certain other classes :P Anyway off topic so i stop now :D

[Desdemonte]

Is it also part of this "balancing" to give more spell slots to Wizzies than Sorcs? This is another thing that seems silly to me.

[Zachski]

Is it also part of this "balancing" to give more spell slots to Wizzies than Sorcs? This is another thing that seems silly to me.

The basic concept is that Sorcerers are raw, untrained naturals at magic, whereas Wizards have spent years and years learning the magical arts.

Sorcerers, while they can cast spells exceedingly naturally, don't have the training necessary to memorize a bunch of spells. Consequently, wizards, despite the fact that they don't have as much spell-stamina, are so well trained that they know extra spells.

[SupTyr]

Just want to correct one thing:
My example was not about solo farming sins on normal with a capped toon - which is indeed a joke due to dungeon scaling. Wonder how people get to assume that. Maybe I should have been more clear on this. It was a full party (6 ppl, no hires = full scaling), hard difficulty for xp and none of us had a capstone enhancement yet.

Also still waiting for a valid argument why sorcerers should suddenly get inherent (lesser) quickened casting. (omgnoobgohome is not a valid argument)
Someone attempted to argument that at higher levels Spell Resistance becomes an issue for sorcerers, but if you look closely you will notice that most direct damage spells will bypass the SR check completely. ... Who benefits the most from this fact?

Ok sorcerers cast their limited spell selection more frequently, more often and with a much higher impact.
IMO quicker casting in addition to all that is a bit over the top for my taste.

Of course you are welcome to have a different opinion on this. But please don't call anyone noob - unless you can back it up with facts.

[Zachski]

Also still waiting for a valid argument why sorcerers should suddenly get inherent (lesser) quickened casting. (omgnoobgohome is not a valid argument)

You've been given plenty of valid arguments.

That you choose to not accept them does not make them invalid arguments. It just means you aren't being told what you wanted to hear.

No one needs to tell you anything more.