Rogue Damage Boost

[Ganolyn]

On DDO wiki it states that this enhancement gives a straight "+" to damage output: +2, +3 etc.... The description in game says you get a "%" boost to damage output: +10%, +15% etc.... I seem to remember the description saying +X to damage before.

Was the enhancement changed or is the description wrong. If it was changed it was a change for the worse as straight damage is better than a % of damage in most cases depending on what is being modified. If it was changed, what is the % based on? Base weapon damage? Base damage plus weapon modifiers? Base damage plus weapon modifiers plus STR/DEX boosts? Base damage plus weapon modifiers plus STR/DEX boosts plus SA? Do other classes' damage feats and enhancements add to it when multiclassing, i.e. FE or WS?

[MrCow]

On DDO wiki it states that this enhancement gives a straight "+" to damage output: +2, +3 etc.... The description in game says you get a "%" boost to damage output: +10%, +15% etc.... I seem to remember the description saying +X to damage before.

Was the enhancement changed or is the description wrong.

This was changed to be percentile in Update 11 (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_11_Official).


Damage Boost enhancements are now percentage based. They now increase your weapon damage by 10%, 15%, 20%, or 25% for 20 seconds.

[Ganolyn]

This was changed to be percentile in Update 11 (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_11_Official).


Thanks, I missed that when I read the notes the first time. What a horrible idea. Do you know what the % modifies?

[protokon]

Thanks, I missed that when I read the notes the first time. What a horrible idea. Do you know what the % modifies?

It's a percent to your damage boost....

It was proven that your DPS was lessened when you used the damage boosts due to the delay in swinging caused by activating the boost, and the short duration.

Basically the way it was before, you actually lost DPS by using the little +6 or whatever it was to damage for a few seconds.

now it is a percentile, capping out at +25% I think. it is *much* better than the old static number, some basic math to show you:

let's assume we are comparing +6 to 25% boost. for them to be equivalent, you must be doing about 24 points of damage per swing. any more than that and the percentage is obviously superior, as the boost will keep scaling upwards as the static number won't...

[Ganolyn]

It's a percent to your damage boost....

It was proven that your DPS was lessened when you used the damage boosts due to the delay in swinging caused by activating the boost, and the short duration.

Basically the way it was before, you actually lost DPS by using the little +6 or whatever it was to damage for a few seconds.

now it is a percentile, capping out at +25% I think. it is *much* better than the old static number, some basic math to show you:

let's assume we are comparing +6 to 25% boost. for them to be equivalent, you must be doing about 24 points of damage per swing. any more than that and the percentage is obviously superior, as the boost will keep scaling upwards as the static number won't...


I understand that after a point the % will be better. I said that in my initial post. That is why I am asking what it is that is modified (weapons damage only, STR/DEX mods etc...) and if other feats/enhancements add to that base.

[protokon]

I understand that after a point the % will be better. I said that in my initial post. That is why I am asking what it is that is modified (weapons damage only, STR/DEX mods etc...) and if other feats/enhancements add to that base.

It's a percent increase of your base damage, if I understand it correctly it takes your damage roll and then just adds 25% on top of that.

based off of testing it on the training dummy on my barb, it appears to only effect the base damage number, regardless of how its applied. could be wrong but it appears to simply boost your base damage number by 25% after everything else is applied.

I guess this change would suck if your an 8 base strength, dex-based rogue...

[Lehmu]

There's one good reason why damage boost is great for rogues (when you're out of speed boosts, anyway). Damage boost boosts your sneak attack damage.

[Ganolyn]

It's a percent increase of your base damage, if I understand it correctly it takes your damage roll and then just adds 25% on top of that.

based off of testing it on the training dummy on my barb, it appears to only effect the base damage number, regardless of how its applied. could be wrong but it appears to simply boost your base damage number by 25% after everything else is applied.

Thanks. Then everything that adds to base damage should add to the % boost and also show up in crits and SA.



I guess this change would suck if your an 8 base strength, dex-based rogue...

One would hope that someone like this went Finesse, which is why I asked if DEX modifiers counted.

[Diyon]

Thanks. Then everything that adds to base damage should add to the % boost and also show up in crits and SA.



One would hope that someone like this went Finesse, which is why I asked if DEX modifiers counted.

Dex mod's don't count in normal damage unless you have a special weapon, in which case it would go right into the boost like anything else. However, that 8 str dex rogue would still get their SA damage modified by this damage boost.

[Ganolyn]

The more I think about this the more horrible it seems to me. Sure it benefits high level, high STR builds, but what about new player lowbies?

Say a 1st level rogue maxes out STR and decides to carry a weapon that does 1d8. He is carrying a +1 of whatever (anything except Righteous), so that means he does from 6-13 points of basic damage on a regular hit (1d8+1 from weapon, +4 from STR bonus).

Unless a dev comes in here and tells me that they don't drop all fractions and that they round up from .5 on, that means when the player hits their 10% damage boost they are getting no benefit from it at all half the time, when before the change they would have received a solid +2 from every hit. If they don't max STR they are getting it even less of the time. Even when it does add in, they are getting half of what they got before.

A 1d6 weapon only gets it 33% of the time only if you max out STR and while a higher crit range weapon like a rapier or scimitar would help a bit it still isn't as good as the soild +2 every hit they used to get.

The system should changed to help out low strength, low level builds and splashes by giving them back some guaranteed damage for the boost:

Damage Boost I = +10% or +2, which ever is greater

Damage Boost II = +15% or +3, which ever is greater

Damage Boost III = +20% or +4, which ever is greater

Damage Boost IV = +25% or +5, which ever is greater

[CountHenri]

Low STR builds will (unless using non-str damage weapons) always suffer from lower DPS.

Having said that the boost to Sneak Attack would benefit rogues an aweful lot even at lowish levels.

The thing is you dont stay at low level for long (even on double TR+) and say 3d6 sneak or higher would notice a nice boost...

[Vormaerin]

How long are you that lowbie, though? Even a completely new player is going to be lvl 1-4 for only a couple days, at most. While you'll be using the % boost for the life of your character.

[Ganolyn]

How long are you that lowbie, though? Even a completely new player is going to be lvl 1-4 for only a couple days, at most. While you'll be using the % boost for the life of your character.

Well the beauty of my suggestion is that no one has to suffer through anything and the higher you get damage-wise you will out-strip the base damage given with your higher % damage bonus. Spending AP's should never be a detriment at any time. They are called enhancements and should enhance from the start, not when you hit some magical threshold.

[protokon]

Well the beauty of my suggestion is that no one has to suffer through anything and the higher you get damage-wise you will out-strip the base damage given with your higher % damage bonus. Spending AP's should never be a detriment at any time. They are called enhancements and should enhance from the start, not when you hit some magical threshold.

I'm confused. low level mobs have an average of 15-25 hitpoints, why should we balance the ability to be a hard number that makes it overpowered at low levels, then tapers off and becomes useless at level 20?

I understand where your going with this, that the ability should benefit you from the start instead of after a certain threshold - but in it's current form, it's a very, very minor nerf to using the ability at low levels and a nice buff for high level toons. melees at endgame need all the help they can get at this point to keep up with casters....

[Ganolyn]

I'm confused.


Yes you are. Read this again:


Damage Boost I = +10% or +2, which ever is greater

Damage Boost II = +15% or +3, which ever is greater

Damage Boost III = +20% or +4, which ever is greater

Damage Boost IV = +25% or +5, which ever is greater

[Qezuzu]

Yes you are. Read this again:


Damage Boost I = +10% or +2, which ever is greater

Damage Boost II = +15% or +3, which ever is greater

Damage Boost III = +20% or +4, which ever is greater

Damage Boost IV = +25% or +5, which ever is greater

A rogue's SA damage is also increased. Even if your base damage is pitiful, your SA will become considerable within a few levels.

It got nerfed for builds that do pitifully low damage, and got a massive boost for everyone else.

For low level, ungrared rogues, you've lost a marginal amount of damage. It's not worth the devs' time to use your suggestion.

[Ganolyn]

A rogue's SA damage is also increased. Even if your base damage is pitiful, your SA will become considerable within a few levels.

It got nerfed for builds that do pitifully low damage, and got a massive boost for everyone else.

For low level, ungrared rogues, you've lost a marginal amount of damage. It's not worth the devs' time to use your suggestion.


SA is not always an option, although rogues should always try for it. It just means no one will take it until later levels when they can get a benefit from it. Besides, splashes get shafted too. Consider a build that only takes four levels of rogue. If at any time they do less than 20 points of damage they will get less than the +3 they were getting before. They would need a STR over 40 to guarantee that level of damage consistantly. You guys think every first life build can do that?

[Diyon]

SA is not always an option, although rogues should always try for it. It just means no one will take it until later levels when they can get a benefit from it. Besides, splashes get shafted too. Consider a build that only takes four levels of rogue. If at any time they do less than 20 points of damage they will get less than the +3 they were getting before. They would need a STR over 40 to guarantee that level of damage consistantly. You guys think every first life build can do that?

You're not taking into account crits and other things augmenting your base damage.

[protokon]

Yes you are. Read this again:


Damage Boost I = +10% or +2, which ever is greater

Damage Boost II = +15% or +3, which ever is greater

Damage Boost III = +20% or +4, which ever is greater

Damage Boost IV = +25% or +5, which ever is greater

Read the rest of my post instead of taking it out of context. Changing it again at this point, is a complete waste of development time.

You can argue the little semantics and how unfair the nerf is for an 8 strength rogue who refuses to wear a strength item (and refuses to take advantage of sneak attack), cause in all honesty that is the *only* person who is getting the shaft from this change...and shafted by 1 or 2 points of damage, at that.

If you want brute force damage with the damage boost, beef up your strength or use a better weapon at lower levels - If your expecting to play as a rogue to charge in and damage boost to start thrashing around like a barb, your playing the wrong class. damage boost still affects your sneak attack damage as well, making it considerably better than before - even at lower levels.

[aristarchus1000]

Yes you are. Read this again:


Damage Boost I = +10% or +2, which ever is greater

Damage Boost II = +15% or +3, which ever is greater

Damage Boost III = +20% or +4, which ever is greater

Damage Boost IV = +25% or +5, which ever is greater

I would just recommend not taking it for your earlier levels.

I would rather this not be changed. I just know at some bug would creep up resulting in the worse of the two happening, or not working at all, or result in lag due to he double calculation to figure out he higher damage. I would rather development focus on something else.

[Ganolyn]

:rolleyes: You people have more excuses than a death row inmate.