Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[Zurrander]

I'm all in favor of making the current hard setting (heroic & epic) the new Normal setting. And then making Elite the new Hard so that we would have room a more difficult Elite setting (that would take an elite group to complete). That way those that complain of the game being to easy can have their own "Super Elite" difficulty to challenge themselves with, and the rest of us well be able to continue to enjoy the current Hard&Elite modes without the annoyance of Normal(Easy)... Being only a casual gamer myself I don't expect to be able to solo the hardest content, and the fact that I can makes it easy for me to understand how Veterans must feel about the current elite difficulty (it must be similar to how bored i get playing normal)

But keep in mind that there is more to Difficulty then just inflated stats... Its nice for "Harder" monsters to be more powerful, but they should do more then just that. Try mixing in more tactics (Elite mobs should use more CC/Ambushes/ect...) i feel like the Devs do a good job of this in Heroic levels "in Kobold assault they go from throwing rocks and using obscuring mist (normal) to throwing lighting and using hold spells (elite)", but once you get to epic its just "oh look, its a zombie with x10 health that can kill me with 4 hits... how fun?".

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
To be clear, Right now...
Normal = Sleep walking through a quest... (Boring)
Hard = A pleasant walk in the park (Not bad)
Elite = Fight from you life (Fun!)
------------------------------------------------------------
And What I would Like to see is....
Normal = A brisk jog through the park (kind of fun, but still a low risk of a group wipe... Can be Soloed by most players with some difficulty)
Hard = Fight for your Life (Can be soloed by a well prepared player, Most Groups can get through with some difficulty)
Elite = Tight Rope Walking, with a horde of angry beholders under you (Can be soloed by a Super Elite player, Provides a challenge to even a experienced/well prepared group)

[Lanadazia]

To be clear, Right now...
Normal = Sleep walking through a quest... (Boring)
Hard = A pleasant walk in the park (Not bad)
Elite = Fight from you life (Fun!)
------------------------------------------------------------
And What I would Like to see is....
Normal = A brisk jog through the park (kind of fun, but still a low risk of a group wipe... Can be Soloed by most players with some difficulty)
Hard = Fight for your Life (Can be soloed by a well prepared player, Most Groups can get through with some difficulty)
Elite = Tight Rope Walking, with a horde of angry beholders under you (Can be soloed by a Super Elite player, Provides a challenge to even a experienced/well prepared group)

i kinda agree on that, especially in the eveningstar epic elite content. its way too easy, even at level (considering you know the quests, have the according gear to run it and have a toon that is build strong)
the higher epic elites though are on point IMO


Bravo!

Here is the genesis of a possibly great idea. What if we only had two difficulties -- solo and group. Solo would be closed to groups and challenging but not impossible for a single player and has some restrictions on it such as (example only, not wedded to this) no more than 2 pets and/or hirelings. Group would be closed to soloing while challenging but not impossible for 2 or more players plus pets and/or hirelings.
.

disagree on this. why would you eliminate teamplay?

[Therigar]

disagree on this. why would you eliminate teamplay?

Did you read what I wrote? Two difficulties -- one for soloing (mostly without hires) and one for grouping (2+ people). Grouping is team play. In what version of the multiverse does being in a group not involve team play (other than the standard, "I know we're a group but everyone just do their own thing and we'll see how it turns out.")?

[Therigar]

LoL and watch the game bleed even more players, we have seen again and again even though some minority in the forums moan for "harder content" in the end they don't really want that or support it.

Well, I think this is certainly a legitimate POV and probably represents Turbine's perspective. Easy means drawing crowds. New and easy means drawing them in large numbers. The problem is that Turbine can't turn out new and easy fast enough to keep people from getting bored -- so they show up, win in a day or two, then disappear again.

But, if we concede that there's no reason to talk game difficulty unless it is to hear how it is too hard and needs to be easier, then why is it that the vast majority of responses are that it is too easy and needs to be harder? If Turbine already has the answer it wants and wants to keep the game easy in order to try and gain players then why is it bleeding players?

Perhaps there should be less concern with the mountain-top highs and valley lows and more concern about the steadiness of the plains and rolling hills. Maybe the focus should be less on those they might gain and those they have lost and more on the ones who are plugging along still playing.

[Lanadazia]

Did you read what I wrote? Two difficulties -- one for soloing (mostly without hires) and one for grouping (2+ people). Grouping is team play. In what version of the multiverse does being in a group not involve team play (other than the standard, "I know we're a group but everyone just do their own thing and we'll see how it turns out.")?

yes i did read what you wrote
there are alot of players who do alot of solo stuff
this game is not supposed to be played alone. if you got a toon for it, well done! but i don't think turbine should eleminate actual teamplay content to amuse solo players.
sometimes i think 'why can't i just solo this' when its a hard time with a PuG for example or you have to shortman a quest
but in the end its even more satisfying to have done it 'the harder way'
you know what i mean?
by offering a solo-difficulty to all quests, this game will lose alot of teamplay value

[Therigar]

by offering a solo-difficulty to all quests, this game will lose alot of teamplay value

I understand your perspective now that you explained your thoughts. I think the ship on that sailed years ago. The decision was made -- as much by the players as by Turbine -- to solo rather than group. And, now, all but a very small handful (personally, I can only think of 2 or 3 quests myself) can be soloed.

Since that is the de facto state of the game we could benefit by simply accepting it. In reality, I think we (and Turbine) have.

[Zurrander]

This game would get a lot more group play if we were given better/easier grouping options. As it stands the only reason to group is to have someone else do what you can't (i.e. a rouge to trap for you, or a cleric to heal "and hirelings can do this"), we need reasons to group outside of the need for help.
Maybe something like....
1. Higher Xp/Difficulty when grouping (similar to how normal has dungeon scaling but with all difficulties and added rewards "Xp/Loot/Favor")
2. Wilderness Area's that are public! with enhanced (Raid Level) mobs & bosses. (I know that this would take a lot of time and effort, but it would be worth it "both financially & fun wise", everyone would want to buy these areas! It might be easier to convert all of eveningstar into a public area (including public Quest/Wilderness Areas/Raids). That way you would have DDO classic (eberron) and DDO advanced (eveningstar)! of course it would be fine to start small with only 1 public wilderness, and save the rest until after the first one becomes the best selling item in the store.

Maybe its just me (and if its is please say so) but having public quest/wilderness/raids would be the best thing that could happen to this game, and while some may feel that it would take away form the games D&D back ground, i would ask those players to just stay in eberron then... If anyone has some slight addendums please share them with us, because I really do feel like this could bring DDO to the next level, and using eveningstar would allow the core game to remain pure while giving the players more incentive to group and a reason to shell out some cash on a revolutionary Expansion.

[Therigar]

This game would get a lot more group play if we were given better/easier grouping options.

How much better/easier do you want it to be than it already is? To group all you need to do is put up a LFM -- you can even set it to automatically accept whoever responds.

[Zurrander]

How much better/easier do you want it to be than it already is? To group all you need to do is put up a LFM -- you can even set it to automatically accept whoever responds.

Well, by better i meant that there should be actual incentives for grouping (Better Xp/Loot ect...) and by easier i meant something along the lines of messages that say "This person on your friends list is about to do this quests that you also have, would you like to join" or even something along the lines of "role play servers" could be nice... but these are a minor concern in comparison to my second suggestion, as i personally haven't had any trouble with the grouping system since i mostly play with people i know form real life (some new players have told me that they found DDO's grouping system lacking though)

But on a more positive note, how do you feel about the whole "make eveningstar into a public area (complete with public quest/raids/wilderness areas) idea?" I'm sure that this idea i a little rough at the moment, and that's why I'd like some feedback form more experienced players.

[Scrabbler]

1. Higher Xp/Difficulty when grouping
Adding rewards for people who are in groups is a fairly simple approach, but it leads to multiple bad results.

The real trick to increasing grouping (and this isn't exactly easy either) would be to remove obstacles to grouping.


2. Wilderness Area's that are public! with enhanced (Raid Level) mobs & bosses.
It's very difficult to get that to work; take a look at the Mabar graveyard event to see an example of this. Someone might point to the pirate island outdoors event as an example of that concept working, but that's an illusion: players only need to farm pirates for their first compass, and all the rest come from gems inside Crystal Cove.

Even outside of DDO, other MMORPGs have a lot of trouble getting public combat zones to work well, despite a huge amount of design effort going into it.

[Therigar]

Adding rewards for people who are in groups is a fairly simple approach, but it leads to multiple bad results.

The real trick to increasing grouping (and this isn't exactly easy either) would be to remove obstacles to grouping.

It's very difficult to get that to work; take a look at the Mabar graveyard event to see an example of this. Someone might point to the pirate island outdoors event as an example of that concept working, but that's an illusion: players only need to farm pirates for their first compass, and all the rest come from gems inside Crystal Cove.

I can't speak about other games and their success (or lack thereof). I do agree with the observation that, within DDO, public wilderness areas are problematic. Nothing about current implementations suggests that the knowledge, skills or abilities exist to create such an area. And, for the development effort that would be required I would rather that went into new quests.

As to the point about obstacles to grouping, I cannot see what those are or how to reasonably remove the few that exist. Level differences are a limiter but a necessary one to keep low level characters from just piking quests while high level characters solo them. Keeping heroic level characters out of epic level quests is necessary to prevent exploitation of the XP differences which make power leveling too easy. Other than that, there really aren't any obstacles. I suppose one could complain about snowy vs sunny Korthos or the group limit of 6 per quest or 12 per raid -- but I don't think those are really creating a problem.

And, to restate a point made earlier, you can set up your LFM to accept any character that requests to join. So, I don't really know what obstacles there are that could be removed.

[Lanadazia]

This game would get a lot more group play if we were given better/easier grouping options. As it stands the only reason to group is to have someone else do what you can't (i.e. a rouge to trap for you, or a cleric to heal "and hirelings can do this"), we need reasons to group outside of the need for help.
Maybe something like....
1. Higher Xp/Difficulty when grouping (similar to how normal has dungeon scaling but with all difficulties and added rewards "Xp/Loot/Favor")
2. Wilderness Area's that are public! with enhanced (Raid Level) mobs & bosses. (I know that this would take a lot of time and effort, but it would be worth it "both financially & fun wise", everyone would want to buy these areas! It might be easier to convert all of eveningstar into a public area (including public Quest/Wilderness Areas/Raids). That way you would have DDO classic (eberron) and DDO advanced (eveningstar)! of course it would be fine to start small with only 1 public wilderness, and save the rest until after the first one becomes the best selling item in the store.


i think the grouping is good, as it is right now. its always nice to have a healer and a rogue with you of course, but you can work around those issues. i've done some very trappy quests (like that one in necro2 for example) without a rogue or a healer, and its just another way to run the quest, so its fun, to not have all needed ressources with you sometimes.

the higher xp for groups is a problem. i know alot of people that are 2-boxing quests. best example is the player Star from argonessen, who farmed favor this way.
so still, peoply might solo a supposed-to-be group quest, and get extra xp for actually not being in a real group

on that public slayer areas: uhm.. i dont get that idea. so you want it to be like marbar or the map in crystal cove?

[Therigar]

the higher xp for groups is a problem. i know alot of people that are 2-boxing quests.

You make a valid point. I often run 3 sessions at the same time to farm Devil Assault for tokens when it is time to reincarnate. I just park 2 characters in the waiting room and solo with the other 1. Getting bonus XP on top of the triple loot might be too much.

This illustrates how difficult it is to find a reasonable solution to the perceived problem of solo v group questing.

Clearly soloing has been pushed onto DDO and quests appear to have become easier in order to accommodate solo questing. This is, after all, the whole rationale behind dungeon scaling.

IMO it really deserves its own thread. While it is tangential to the question of quest difficulty it is also a separate issue in and of itself. My perception is that most players want solo play more than they want group play. But, I suspect that there is a large number that are comfortable with either and choose to quest solo or in a group using whatever personal criteria they happen to have.

With respect to the thread topic, I do believe that a) in general quest difficulty is too low and that b) moving to a 2 options system where the choice is to solo or to group is prudent. Whether one mode or the other gives added XP might just be an issue of quest design and the XP formulas.

I do see that a solo only option could threaten grouping. I think the solution there is to introduce added elements to the grouping option within the quest to encourage groups by increasing the fun factor.

By way of example, let's look at the VoN raid. That cannot be completed by a solo character. If the game moved to a solo/group paradigm then there would need to be a way to let a solo character manage to get through in a couple of places.

That's great for the soloing crowd. But, what about the grouping crowd? What is done for them? Take a different quest, one that is easily soloed like Devil Assault. What if a group, instead of standing in the room waiting on wave after wave, could take the fight forward thru the portals to the staging grounds on Shavarath? What if that opened additional encounter chances with added lootgen chests or even a new side quest area?

The point is to offer something to the group that cannot be achieved by the solo player as a reward/incentive.

Arguably raids and quests like VoN provide this. The problem is that they are too few to really encourage grouping and the pressure to allow solo play is too great to encourage development of more group only quests/raids.

So, IMO, a separate thread discussing ways to encourage and allow both without dooming one or the other would make sense.

[Lanadazia]

With respect to the thread topic, I do believe that a) in general quest difficulty is too low and that b) moving to a 2 options system where the choice is to solo or to group is prudent. Whether one mode or the other gives added XP might just be an issue of quest design and the XP formulas.

By way of example, let's look at the VoN raid. That cannot be completed by a solo character. If the game moved to a solo/group paradigm then there would need to be a way to let a solo character manage to get through in a couple of places.


to a) yes it is too easy. i recenlty was in a EE wgu pug (!) that just owned the quest, i wasn't able to contribute much helpful stuff since i was busy running over all the corpses they left while zerging lol
to b) i think this should be well figured out and have a long preview cycle to make sure this isnt going to break the game (it will be gamebreaking at some point, since there will be players drawn away from the pool of players that might join a lfm or a channel-group etc)

raids should be untouched imo

[Therigar]

Well, I doubt that DDO or its successor will ever adopt a scheme in which quests have only the two settings -- so most of the discussion may be moot and is speculative at the best. At 8+ years there are two things working against the change -- inertia and old age. The system of cnhe is essentially the same as it was at launch. Add to that the challenge of keeping players in a game that is closing in on 10 years old -- most people don't have that sort of commitment to much of anything and a 10 year old product has challenges competing with everything new and shiny.

Having said that, I doubt that a change would be game breaking. To the contrary, it would scarcely be noticed I think. And the reason is that players would have the same options they have now -- solo or group. And, they would make the choice of which to do using essentially the same reasons they do now, whatever those happen to be (there are too many to try to generalize about I would think).

More important to the discussion is the shift in the game that would be needed to make such a scheme work. The amount of content would need to be large enough and the variety sufficient to allow leveling without farming XP so that steady progress was easily attained. A much more dynamic story line would be needed in which certain story arcs were impacted based on previous quest choices. Favor with one faction might affect favor with a rival and quest availability might be tied to both alignment and patron.

The whole might be too complex to merit development.

I simply favor the idea because it would introduce something new into a system that is starting to show its age.

[Merlin-ator]

It seems that when new quests are released, they're very challenging. However, as players gain more experience with the quests, difficulty gets knocked back down to somewhat reasonable levels. I don't see any major game-wide problem here.

[Lychias]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.


I am still lower level, and haven't done much of the 10+ content, but I have generally been pleased with the challenge level on elite especially. I also play LOTRO, and have several maxed level characters, but find that game to be more casual and straight forward. I switched to DDO in order to get some more of the challenges and puzzles and I have been enjoying it so far.

[diego92]

think we are becoming too strong for the quests. new trees and epic destinies are making us all overpowered. I think they should increase the difficulty of the quests or decrease our powers.I know this game has already been called elitist for prioritizing more veteran players. but this change after Underdark destroyed veterans. What is the advantage of doing a quest in epic elite, if the epic hard I can get these items too?

thanks for listening

[MangLord]

In regards to the above poster, I like the new system of epic and mythic items in the Mark of Death release. (it also raises the question about mythic difficulty for the truly hardcore) From what I understand, there's always a chance of landing a Mythic Minos Legens, but you're more likely to get it on EE. That doesn't exclude the unwashed masses entirely, but incentivizes EE as a way to increase your chances of getting that great item. DDO has had trouble in the past with random droprates (scroll/shard/seal), but the chance of landing that single item seems a lot more fair than having to win the lottery three times over a series of quests. I don't mind my odds when i know I need to run one quest for that one item, and EE gives me the best odds.

On paper, group XP scaling seems like a good idea, but it would depend on several factors. One, and most important, is how much does a single person add to the XP? If it's 1%, then I'd rather complete a quest at my own pace than get stuck with either dead weight or someone zerging hard with me there to get them 1% closer to their next ETR. I think it would be really hard to find a happy medium, and too difficult to code in extra XP for people you party with often and are obviously friends that are on the same pace as you.
An interesting option would be to add a bonus 20% xp for achieving the highest rating possible, if ransack/conquest/ingenious are achievable in a given quest. It might encourage more teamwork, or at least compel people to not invis through the quest just to get to the end. Someone will run the maths and figure out the xp/minute, and invis runs will most likely work out better overall, but I'd tend towards breaking boxes and disabling traps, and it would be cool to get a bonus for doing so. I like Haunted Halls for the loads of optionals that basically double the XP, even if its not the fastest method for XP per minute. I always have a good time in that quest and the extended XP isn't too shabby with full bonuses.

In my opinion, the new wilderness areas seem to have a huge issue with dungeon scaling, and a lack of compelling reason to spend much time in there. I will not set foot in heroic Wheloon as part of a full party. I advise people to run to the quest 1-2 at a time to avoid instant red alerts , unless you want to get your 750 slayer xp in less than 15 minutes. You really have to invis-run through Orchard, assuming someone in the party can't just teleport directly to the quest and may not know the way their first time. I completely hate Thunderholme, even though its such a great looking area, because the sheer amount of enemies make it a painful process to flag people for the raids. It would be cool to have an option to turn dungeon scaling off in wilderness areas for purposes of getting to quests and flagging Thunderholme raids. Getting stuck on a red alert and crowdsurfing while waiting to die is irritating to me.

It is possible to run heroic Gianthold wilderness to get to the epic quests. Not sure about Orchard, but it certainly makes the process much easier if you can't invis yourself.

[harry-pancreas]

just a possible solution for some issues regarding the game diff and different points of view

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449554

[farsight]

sorry, didn't read the 15~ pages of responses.

i have just returned to DDO after a bit of a hiatus. for myself, as someone who levels slowly and is by no means theorycrafter, the level of difficulty on Normal all the way up to level 10 content is fine. in fact i've been wondering if there haven't been some nerfs along the way. perhaps it's just that characters have been buffed while i've been away.

as for your question concerning ROI for players. it's definitely a solid one. most mmo's do have a different set of expectations than a single player rpg (Dark Souls and it's popularity is a good example.)

honestly, considering the top heavy nature of all 'older' mmo's soloability is certainly a part of this consideration. i have appreciated the fact that i don't die on all traps or that on Normal i can take on dungeons i would not have been able to do 4 or 5 years ago.

i think one way to balance out difficulty with player ROI is to somehow make preparation for encounters and traps play a larger role again. i remember in several group dungeons from years ago where you had to have certain elemental potions, restoration potions, or items or players with these powers in order to progress safely through the content.

do you think there might be a way to increase or maintain difficulty *by* including the need for preparation w/o making it a chore?

[Glascanon]

This Game has gotten way to easy:

http://youtu.be/BWQSUk2kZtI

I hope one of the Developers will watch this Video.

This is me tanking 3 Undead Dragons plus the Stormreaver in Epic Elite Fall of Truth.

As u might know each of this Dragons give u a Debuff witch increases the damage u take from one of the other dragons and stacks upp to 5 each!

So i got all 3 of those Debuffs at 5 Stacks witch also puts my reflex save somewhere below zero.

This is not an improved evasion Build.
He has just 1 Heroic past Live and 7 Epic past Lives.

The Movie just shows what the MMR brought to the Game.
I gues from the mechanics, that each Dragon increases the woundability to another dragon, it was never intended to tank all three Dragons toe to toe.
I didnt even fall below 50% HP a single time!

Now i read in the Forums that it is planned to overhaul the Healing Amplification Items.
But in fear not to offend or nerf anybody this change comes with a huge buff to Healing Amplification for 90% of all Builds.
This new power up would increase my survivability by round about 100%.

Im already bored at 90% of the whole Epic Elite Content in this game.
If i put my Aura on i can go AFK for 1,5 minutes while Tanking EE Bosses.
And the rest just keeps me busy clicking renewal but not challenged at all.

My Tank was fine before UD23 came out. There was absolutely no content witch i wasn´t able to tank.
Bosses and Trashmobs on EE i was able to face em all and keep the Agro. Now it feels like everyone is a tank and do the same like i did before the uppdate but do also crazy DPS at the same time.

Wasn´t Epic Elite Difficulty supposed to be Endgame Content for experienced Players? A Reason to run Quests in main Destenie and a good Party?
The Newl LVL 30 Content came out and the only thing after 5 minutes in EE Desecrated Temple of Vol was that we where wondering if it is somehow possible to pull the whole Dungeon before the red alert forces u to stop moving and then we did a second run and tried it!

Even with that last Power upp there still ppl dieing on EE content thats true.
But the last thing u can not buff is the person in front of the keybord. Please stop the Power creep!
The content doesn´t grow with all these power ups.
We have Epic Normal and Epic Hard difficulty for casual Gamers. And Many "pro Gamer" run normal and hard too for better XP per minute.
By making EE to easy u just take away all challenge in this Game.

With every update my tank was working better and better. First the new Enhancements then some changes to the Destenies. A lot of new awesome Items.
The new MMR the PRR overhaul plus the Meele power brought the power creep to a whole new level!

Paladins got a Spell at lvl 14 witch includes more DPS then spending 40 Points in the Keinsai tree!!!
Realy! Pure Math! More melee DPS from just 1 paladin spell then 40 enhancement points spend in the DPS tree of the Fighter!
PLUS the Paladin Trees got buffed beyond the lines. Im ok With buffing underrated Classes, but does it have to be double and triple at 5 different spots so that the buffs stack to 10000%?

PPL love to get buffed. They love it until they take a breath look around and notice that this Game has gotten boring.
And then they quit playing it.

Since the last buff I already feel bored and noticed that i play way less then i was doing before the update. And i love this game!

With all these ongoing powerups sooner or later more and more players will feel the same.

[diego92]

This Game has gotten way to easy:

http://youtu.be/BWQSUk2kZtI

I hope one of the Developers will watch this Video.

This is me tanking 3 Undead Dragons plus the Stormreaver in Epic Elite Fall of Truth.

As u might know each of this Dragons give u a Debuff witch increases the damage u take from one of the other dragons and stacks upp to 5 each!

So i got all 3 of those Debuffs at 5 Stacks witch also puts my reflex save somewhere below zero.

This is not an improved evasion Build.
He has just 1 Heroic past Live and 7 Epic past Lives.

The Movie just shows what the MMR brought to the Game.
I gues from the mechanics, that each Dragon increases the woundability to another dragon, it was never intended to tank all three Dragons toe to toe.
I didnt even fall below 50% HP a single time!

Now i read in the Forums that it is planned to overhaul the Healing Amplification Items.
But in fear not to offend or nerf anybody this change comes with a huge buff to Healing Amplification for 90% of all Builds.
This new power up would increase my survivability by round about 100%.

Im already bored at 90% of the whole Epic Elite Content in this game.
If i put my Aura on i can go AFK for 1,5 minutes while Tanking EE Bosses.
And the rest just keeps me busy clicking renewal but not challenged at all.

My Tank was fine before UD23 came out. There was absolutely no content witch i wasn´t able to tank.
Bosses and Trashmobs on EE i was able to face em all and keep the Agro. Now it feels like everyone is a tank and do the same like i did before the uppdate but do also crazy DPS at the same time.

Wasn´t Epic Elite Difficulty supposed to be Endgame Content for experienced Players? A Reason to run Quests in main Destenie and a good Party?
The Newl LVL 30 Content came out and the only thing after 5 minutes in EE Desecrated Temple of Vol was that we where wondering if it is somehow possible to pull the whole Dungeon before the red alert forces u to stop moving and then we did a second run and tried it!

Even with that last Power upp there still ppl dieing on EE content thats true.
But the last thing u can not buff is the person in front of the keybord. Please stop the Power creep!
The content doesn´t grow with all these power ups.
We have Epic Normal and Epic Hard difficulty for casual Gamers. And Many "pro Gamer" run normal and hard too for better XP per minute.
By making EE to easy u just take away all challenge in this Game.

With every update my tank was working better and better. First the new Enhancements then some changes to the Destenies. A lot of new awesome Items.
The new MMR the PRR overhaul plus the Meele power brought the power creep to a whole new level!

Paladins got a Spell at lvl 14 witch includes more DPS then spending 40 Points in the Keinsai tree!!!
Realy! Pure Math! More melee DPS from just 1 paladin spell then 40 enhancement points spend in the DPS tree of the Fighter!
PLUS the Paladin Trees got buffed beyond the lines. Im ok With buffing underrated Classes, but does it have to be double and triple at 5 different spots so that the buffs stack to 10000%?

PPL love to get buffed. They love it until they take a breath look around and notice that this Game has gotten boring.
And then they quit playing it.

Since the last buff I already feel bored and noticed that i play way less then i was doing before the update. And i love this game!

With all these ongoing powerups sooner or later more and more players will feel the same.

I fully agree with you. I think the epic difficulty had to go back to the old days. Only Epic. And please, we are getting very strong, Please stop Buffing Us!

[Yehediah]

This Game has gotten way to easy: ...

This is not an improved evasion Build.
He has just 1 Heroic past Live and 7 Epic past Lives.

JUST? This is how come I continually want qualifiers on "too easy". Need a challenge? Try doing a completely new character on a different server so you start back at the beginning. It matters more than many people think.

"Too easy" has to be balanced to a degree with the vast majority not having tons of past lives and tons of high end gear. Then you also have us old timers (paying old timers) who were around before TR and thereby have half a dozen or more characters - many still on first life because we can't play enough to get them all up to speed. And, feasibly there's no way for us to keep up more than 1 character with those who just play 1 character and TR them over and over.

Also, there are so many blasted bugs that "too easy" on a quest/raid can change from one day to the next. At this very moment (unless changed today), Ghosts of Perdition is a royal pain due to very high stacking damage being spammed by the undead beholder on multiple players. We used to 3 man it easily, now it's very costly due to constant deaths due to being rapidly incapacitated by stat damage.

Further, while some things are too easy, some are not. And that's before factoring in what's easy for 1 build might be hard for almost all other builds - i.e., some is very conditionally easy.

[Mryal]

JUST? This is how come I continually want qualifiers on "too easy". Need a challenge? Try doing a completely new character on a different server so you start back at the beginning. It matters more than many people think.

"Too easy" has to be balanced to a degree with the vast majority not having tons of past lives and tons of high end gear. Then you also have us old timers (paying old timers) who were around before TR and thereby have half a dozen or more characters - many still on first life because we can't play enough to get them all up to speed. And, feasibly there's no way for us to keep up more than 1 character with those who just play 1 character and TR them over and over.

Also, there are so many blasted bugs that "too easy" on a quest/raid can change from one day to the next. At this very moment (unless changed today), Ghosts of Perdition is a royal pain due to very high stacking damage being spammed by the undead beholder on multiple players. We used to 3 man it easily, now it's very costly due to constant deaths due to being rapidly incapacitated by stat damage.

Further, while some things are too easy, some are not. And that's before factoring in what's easy for 1 build might be hard for almost all other builds - i.e., some is very conditionally easy.

I dont disagree that the game is considerably eaiser now and that it should be harder.But you here have a point when you say that SOME things are indeed hard even now.The 3 new raids from last year are really difficult on EE.Plus if you have a fully geared EE designed tank with some past lives (i do too, and i reach similar results), you gotta remember that FOT is no longer endgame content, in fact its a under lvl quest at 28.Try tanking 2 dragons + trash on EE Thunder Peaks wich is at lv at 28.I bet the results will be different :P

[Hafeal]

Just when this thread was thought truly dead ...

"ARISE! ARISE! Ye MIGHTY GHOST OF MADFLOYD, ARISE!"

[Ancient]

Just when this thread was thought truly dead ...

"ARISE! ARISE! Ye MIGHTY GHOST OF MADFLOYD, ARISE!"

Give proper credit, he didn't just necro it... he quoted a huge wall of text to add a tiny response while necroing it as their very first post (even though post count says 2).

I'm not sure if that is triple or quadruple bogus style points.

[phillymiket]

This thread has a long history of being Necro'ed. I think this the 3rd or 4th annual Necro of the Let's Talk: Game Difficulty thread.

Please don't lock Cordo.

I think we can make reviving this thread a tradition for the new year.

We can all exchange gifts and sing songs.

[Bladebolt]

Glorious! :D(y) +1

Note: But it´s a simple fact: in every war mankind fought, the ranged had been superior over the Close-combat. We have machineguns, artillery and air-strikes. Melees are only for Support. And don´t come to a Shooting with a knife (except you´re chuck norris)

Well... no... :D

Until gun powder came into use ranged was NOT the primary combat style or the decisive factor in the end result.
Any shield could save you from arrows and a lot of armors could really negate most of the damage that an arrow would inflict. Archers were the support group.

I still can't accept the concept that in DDO an archer can shoot unlimited arrows that each one does 2000-3000 hp damage in a crazy pace, doing more damage per second than any other melee class.

So if you are talking about the all human history before the 15th century you are not correct.

Last but not least who authorized you to speak for Chuck Norris? (and not even use caps when typing His name?)
Blasphemy should not be tolerated.

[Bladebolt]

bla... bla... bla... (sorry for this, just want to get to hat part I want to comment on) But, if we concede that there's no reason to talk game difficulty unless it is to hear how it is too hard and needs to be easier, then why is it that the vast majority of responses are that it is too easy and needs to be harder? If Turbine already has the answer it wants and wants to keep the game easy in order to try and gain players then why is it bleeding players?...
bla... bla.
Not all players are fluent in English. I know really A LOT of people who play the game but will have serious difficulty expressing themselves in a forum like this.
Add to the above that a lot of people are not comfortable with presenting their own aspect since they feel that are not proficient enough to be entitled to a serious opinion about the game.
That leaves commenting and opinions to the experts who by default are experts. So yes, the vast majority will say that the game is too easy. (Personally I tend to agree although I can not solo all EE end game quests)

Bleeding players is a more complex matter that could be discussed forever until the solution is found.

I personally haven't met anyone who stopped playing because it was too easy or too hard.
I have met people who quit because they wanted to become good players but could not invest the time farming and farming for a single item.
People who wanted the role and playing game and not the " Superman in new adventures" saga.
People left before Eveningstar came that had exhausted the old content and do 10TRs just to say "I belong to the Supermen tribe" was not enough to keep them going.

I am not implying that these are the top 3 reasons, these are the ones that I am aware of.

[Hilltrot]

Well... no... :D

Until gun powder came into use ranged was NOT the primary combat style or the decisive factor in the end result.
Any shield could save you from arrows and a lot of armors could really negate most of the damage that an arrow would inflict. Archers were the support group.

I still can't accept the concept that in DDO an archer can shoot unlimited arrows that each one does 2000-3000 hp damage in a crazy pace, doing more damage per second than any other melee class.

So if you are talking about the all human history before the 15th century you are not correct.

Last but not least who authorized you to speak for Chuck Norris? (and not even use caps when typing His name?)
Blasphemy should not be tolerated.

Sorry, about continuing to necro a 3-4 year old thread, but I had to stop this absurd misunderstanding of history.

Range weapons - especially the bow, have been key to the outcomes of many wars and battles.

Bows were key to the Assyrian empire. They were important to the English and their war with the French.

They were vital to the success of the Huns. The bow was primary. They were the primary weapon of the Mongols as well. They made mince meat of melee forces and the old style Roman legions.

You are right that it was not the most popular. Success with the bow required a lot of skill. Most armies didn't have the time or interest in building the skill which was necessary to use a bow effectively. Even the crossbow required quite a bit of skill to use effectively.

This is why guns changed warfare. You had the ability to give someone a missile weapon that would be effective with almost no training. Grab the farmers, hand them a gun and you got an "effective" fighting force. At least, more effective than the spear and shield you were handing them.

[TerysDethswind]

So many things contribute to the game difficulty and my opinion of it. First off, the tremendous variety that has been introduced into the game along with the addition of bravery bonuses have done wonders for killing the LFM board. One result of this is a smaller bracket of people allowed in groups to maintain the bravery bonus, and another is that a large percentage of groups that are posted are for the same few quests. The effect this has, is a lot of soloed quests. This makes hirelings semi-important for some classes, which, although the have always been terrible to rely on, now are virtually worthless. I cannot even begin to count how many times I have stood next to my hireling as it refuses to heal itself or my character without me directing it to manually. This has become especially true since the update that "fixed" hirelings with the addition of the selectable power commands. In game purchasable healing pots are so ineffective as to be worthless, with the ones tradable by collectors marginally better. The result, of course, is the need to buy healing pots that actually can heal you from the in game store, which is most likely by design to allow Turbine to make money. While I understand the need to make money, and had little issue with this in the past, the addition of Champions has made the issue much more pronounced. And not the occasional champion, but hordes of champions with their champion bosses and lets not forget, should a rune be hanging about next to some barrels and boxes those will be champion constructs as well. On a side note, I am really curious as to how said box received the training and experience to become an ultra-powerful box to carry on the proud tradition of boxes everywhere. Adding champions with the same rules as the bravery bonus in order to procure anything back, further strengthens the difficulties in finding an LFM as well. Don't get me wrong, the couple champions I saw provided excitement, and they have the propensity to offer a surprise in an otherwise completely known dungeon, but the commonality of them precludes them from actually being champions, and more along the lines of just making the entire dungeon more difficult. Now when I see a champion, I don't get excited, I simply think "there goes Turbine trying to suck more money out of me in pots".
Another contributor to game difficulty that irritates me beyond belief, is the few areas that alter how the actual controls function, whether by design or by flaw I do not know. I play with a joystick and particular levels, such as protecting Baudy Cartemon box and Lines of Supply, alter the way the game is playable. In Baudy Cartemon, the kobolds go back and forth from targetable to un-targetable with the controller. In Lines of Supply, no issues exist with the security elements of the convoys, however, the carriers are un-targetable and I have to use the mouse. If this is by design, it seems a poor way to produce more in game difficulty by hobbling the controls for it. If by flaw, it would be nice if that could be fixed.
As to the actual difficulty levels of the quests, there is tremendous variation between difficulties. The game states that a quest is considered two levels higher than it is on normal, yet everything in the quest is far more than two levels above what they are on normal. Perhaps a more honest system would be to label them as they actually are, such as Devil's Assault in the heroic tier 6/12/18, and to offer rewards and experience accordingly. It makes little sense to me that some quests are far simpler on epic normal than they are on heroic elite, the Spinner of Shadows comes to mind as an example.
To say that the devs have been slightly guilty of courting the "uber-players" is disingenuous, all the focus of this game in the last two years has been geared towards the uber-players. My wife used to play with me, which I enjoyed, however the game drove her away due to the afore-mentioned reasons. I have had several friends leave as well. New players get left in the dirt by the geared out toons of elitists, and slaughtered by the champion hordes.

[Bladebolt]

I haven't done a heroic TR and I have spend too little time on heroic levels, so I will only talk about epic.
Epic IS EASY!
Yes I know there are people complaining about how "hard" it is etc. but so what? Is it bad to get challenged?
I don't know anybody that left because the game got "too hard".

Back when cap was lvl 20, soloing epics was not a usual thing.
You needed a party of people who knew how to play their role and finishing an epic quest gave you a feeling of satisfaction, knowing that what you just did was a well performed difficult team work.

For me game should go back to that model.
You should need a trapper, a healer , a caster, a melee dps and a tank in order to do EH and all the previous specialties in the form of really experienced players to do EE.
Of course this would mean raising the base xp of the quests.

Which by the way is one of the main problems and the reason that a lot of people are leaving the game.
How many times to you have to run EVON 3, SPIES IN THE HOUSE and WIZ KING?
Some EVON 5s, and a little EVON 2 and 2-3 more quests now and then.
How many people are wiling to get 72 million XP doing the same 3-4 quests?
Farming has become the essence of DDO.
So for me the HARDEST part of DDO is repeating the same quests over and over and over because you can't play all day and you need to keep up.

Give more XP to more quests.
Make them more "difficult" if needed.
Make variety a viable choice!
It is good to add more quests but who will play them if they last 40 minutes and they give you half the xp that a 15 minutes run of the usual will give you?
Why should I have to chose between getting XP and variety?
How hard is it to have more quests with decent xp?

Once you balance the XP/variety factor,
get the EE difficulty to non-soloable by everyone
and EH to "Help needed"
then for me you will have the game back on track.

The "Game Difficulty" conversation is missing the point.
It doesn't matter how hard a quest is,
what matters is if you get REWARDED for the time and the effort!

[Yehediah]

How many times to you have to run EVON 3, SPIES IN THE HOUSE and WIZ KING?
Some EVON 5s, and a little EVON 2 and 2-3 more quests now and then.
How many people are wiling to get 72 million XP doing the same 3-4 quests?
Farming has become the essence of DDO.

That's the basic flaw with your argument. WHY do they farm those instead of doing quests that are "harder" - there are some out there. Simple, because they are EASY and give lots of XP. The "more challenge" argument is almost always built based on the most favored quests being run ad nauseum instead of based on the whole of the game.

Failing a quest is a waste of time. Ergo, hard quests are not done without really big payoffs. And even then, people will find a way to make it easier or refuse to go on with those they think can't succeed easily.

So, what people want is not so much a challenge as much as an incentive. Challenge is important, but secondary even though it makes them feel "uber" to say it's most important. ;-)

DDO has tried to give an incentive in XP to do different quests each day - but, it's easy enough to do your 4-5 favorites in one day and repeat the next. Maybe instead, they ought to degrade the base XP for the "best" (most run) quests and increase for the least run - slowly over time.

Now, it would take more time, but "balancing" the quests out a bit is also helpful. Some of the least run quests are pretty hard or at least expensive in time/resources) to run. Remove a few mobs from key spots. Reverse for the easier/popular runs. Add a few mobs at a few key places. Now that'd be a fun little tweak to have things not always be as expected with the occasional surprise.

Also, the newest quests tend to be harder as they are built with the understanding of a challenge for those that already have everything. That's fine, but if they'd give a reason to run all the quests over time, you'd find that some are not as easy as you thought - mainly because you don't know them as well.

[Bladebolt]

That's the basic flaw with your argument. WHY do they farm those instead of doing quests that are "harder" - there are some out there. Simple, because they are EASY and give lots of XP. The "more challenge" argument is almost always built based on the most favored quests being run ad nauseum instead of based on the whole of the game.

Failing a quest is a waste of time. Ergo, hard quests are not done without really big payoffs. And even then, people will find a way to make it easier or refuse to go on with those they think can't succeed easily.

So, what people want is not so much a challenge as much as an incentive. Challenge is important, but secondary even though it makes them feel "uber" to say it's most important. ;-)

DDO has tried to give an incentive in XP to do different quests each day - but, it's easy enough to do your 4-5 favorites in one day and repeat the next. Maybe instead, they ought to degrade the base XP for the "best" (most run) quests and increase for the least run - slowly over time.

Now, it would take more time, but "balancing" the quests out a bit is also helpful. Some of the least run quests are pretty hard or at least expensive in time/resources) to run. Remove a few mobs from key spots. Reverse for the easier/popular runs. Add a few mobs at a few key places. Now that'd be a fun little tweak to have things not always be as expected with the occasional surprise.

Also, the newest quests tend to be harder as they are built with the understanding of a challenge for those that already have everything. That's fine, but if they'd give a reason to run all the quests over time, you'd find that some are not as easy as you thought - mainly because you don't know them as well.

Well.. I don't understand what the flaw is... I didn't just ask for challenge. I asked for better balance between difficulty and XP.
I can't really see where you disagree.

[Hafeal]

Well.. I don't understand what the flaw is...

You been on this account since at least 2010. You come to a thread started in 2011. By a dev no longer with the game. And you keep wanting to necro this thread. Yea, I can see what is not understood. :cool:

[esojiul]

My first thought is class balance actually plays into this. Difficult for one class is not difficult for another.

My preference is that I expect normal to not be challenging for an over-leveled group, elite to have a risk of failure and no guarantee for success.

I will get a more detailed reply when I have more time. :)


I agree. But i will like to see one more level: Legend or Mythic level (Same went cap was lv 20-1 level of epic) it at level 38 for all epic quests. Is the more than elite (no guarantee for success.) But: More champions, traps really deadly, mob do more dmg (not more hp). Force a party work together, using a tank, healer etc etc.
And gear can be upgrade to MYTHIC standard. Basic all the effects are upgrade to it limits.

If the Epic levels, is going to stay in lv 30. I recommend putting the foundation for Demigod level and gear.
Where you have a limit effects and dmg on weapons. and have different benefits of each weapon, but same dmg. We can upgrade all epic items:
Example:
Demigod Sword of Shadow, only for player lv 30:
• Damage: 4(2d6)+12 and what make it special Critical 18% (45-120) 17-20x3
• Metalline
• 2 purple slot
To craft a Demigod Weapon required ingredient from many raids, depend on the item, example 5000 commendation heroism, 5000 token, 1000 raid token, 1000 ingot from death Wyrn, item lord of blade etc etc. Special ingredient is sword of shadow soul, drop from demigod level of VON 6.
Upgrade the effect of all the epic gear that can be useful at high level content. DC 35 in epic telekinesis in epic sirocco it a joke, make it decent. Make it demigod sirocco with demigod telekinesis dc 75, if you want put an aleatory restriction like works 50% chance. Or demigod Vorpal put restriction of dc to instead kill a mob, based on str.

[Bladebolt]

You been on this account since at least 2010. You come to a thread started in 2011. By a dev no longer with the game. And you keep wanting to necro this thread. Yea, I can see what is not understood. :cool:

1. I have the account since 2010 but that does not mean that I do this for a living. I haven't really joined the forums since a few months ago. Does that means I should not post in the forums? They are for experts only?

2. If a thread is dead, close it, remove it. That's what moderators are for. I saw something that interests me and posted... sorry for that.

3. Why do I want to necro this thread? Since English is not my native tongue I don't understand how you come to this conclusion.

If people who are in the players council have your kind of attitude that explains a lot.

[redoubt]

1. Set your target audience (numbers used are an example)

Elite: 25% of quests completed
Hard: 25% of quests completed (thus 50% at hard and above)
Normal: 25% of quests completed (75% normal and above)
Casual: 25% of quests completed (100%)

2. Look at quest completion data

3. Scale difficulties to meet the target.

Notes:
1. Minimum separation should be heroic versus epic.
2. Additional separation of scaling categories might be 1-10, 11-20, epic. something like that.

[festasha]

I agree. But i will like to see one more level: Legend or Mythic level (Same went cap was lv 20-1 level of epic) it at level 38 for all epic quests. Is the more than elite (no guarantee for success.) But: More champions, traps really deadly, mob do more dmg (not more hp). Force a party work together, using a tank, healer etc etc.
And gear can be upgrade to MYTHIC standard. Basic all the effects are upgrade to it limits.

If the Epic levels, is going to stay in lv 30. I recommend putting the foundation for Demigod level and gear.
Where you have a limit effects and dmg on weapons. and have different benefits of each weapon, but same dmg. We can upgrade all epic items:
Example:
Demigod Sword of Shadow, only for player lv 30:
• Damage: 4(2d6)+12 and what make it special Critical 18% (45-120) 17-20x3
• Metalline
• 2 purple slot
To craft a Demigod Weapon required ingredient from many raids, depend on the item, example 5000 commendation heroism, 5000 token, 1000 raid token, 1000 ingot from death Wyrn, item lord of blade etc etc. Special ingredient is sword of shadow soul, drop from demigod level of VON 6.
Upgrade the effect of all the epic gear that can be useful at high level content. DC 35 in epic telekinesis in epic sirocco it a joke, make it decent. Make it demigod sirocco with demigod telekinesis dc 75, if you want put an aleatory restriction like works 50% chance. Or demigod Vorpal put restriction of dc to instead kill a mob, based on str.

Really like this idea. The game should be getting more from the content that's available and older raids and content should get more action this is why I'm guessing some raids have been epic'd. There should be more reasons to run older content at level although some of the loots could do with updating. Who knows maybe this will make some packs more appealing for people to buy.

[Ellihor]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

[Impaqt]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

YES! Lets just Roll the whole game back to Update 1!

[DDOKillingMachine]

YES! Lets just Roll the whole game back to Update 1!

And start over again trying to get it right this time? Okay. Works for me. Short of starting completely over again with the very first line of code, this would be the best way to go about fixing the game. Roll allllllll the way back, crack open the pnp books, and build it right this time.

[esojiul]

On this new mythic difficulty, make it acessible for only capped people. Also make it so hard that it forces you to get teamwork, cc, healer, tank, etc AKA focused roles. If you don't wanna wait for that, than simply don't play mythic. It is that simple. It is what epic elite should have been, but you destroyed it when you "democratized" it.

But, we have another problem with that: by making stuff harder, the ones who wil feel it more will be casters (cc and healing), so the result will not be a variety of roles but people accepting only dps in the parties. So you have to fix that FIRST. An easy and effective start would be rollback the u18 enhancement pass, and armors up pass. The work is done already (unless you deleted it), you only have to create trees for the warlocks and iconics. Also, destroy champions. They only contribute to focus the game even more on dps one pingeon role.

It will be impossible to do that. Many ppl who are happy with their builds will leave the game. then ppl will start crying about not able to find players for grp.

The reason of a mythic level, for the segment of the player who want a challange (it true democratized-but i dont see step back-most of the quest ee below 28, in theory, player over ee level suspose to be able to solo it example a barbarian level 28 on a ee at level 23) . And if you dont like champions, put them only on mythic levels. About you conclusion, of dps, it wrong, before the expasion they where dps, the reason you requeried tanks for quest like tod is because they cannot take the amount of dmg as a tank. And dps (damge per second) depends on how good your build is, if you are still learning the rules, you have from lv 20-28quest a chose from en to ee.

[Ellihor]

It will be impossible to do that. Many ppl who are happy with their builds will leave the game. then ppl will start crying about not able to find players for grp.

This wouldn't happen. If you implement these mechanics people would want to group more, so there would be more groups. And groups would only be needed for mythic, if they don't want to wait, just play other difficulty.


The reason of a mythic level, for the segment of the player who want a challange (it true democratized-but i dont see step back-most of the quest ee below 28, in theory, player over ee level suspose to be able to solo it example a barbarian level 28 on a ee at level 23)

Incorrect. Me and people I see on my server at least do epic elite all the way from 21 to 27. Most people don't even spend more than 5 minutes at 28 (or wathever the time they need o get seeds if they don't have hearts).


And if you dont like champions, put them only on mythic levels.

The problem with champions are the blanket immunites some of them have (started really with ToEE). Remove that and it's fine. But what's the point of champions anyways? Just buff every mob to make things a challenge, instead of a % of mobs.


About you conclusion, of dps, it wrong, before the expasion they where dps, the reason you requeried tanks for quest like tod is because they cannot take the amount of dmg as a tank. And dps (damge per second) depends on how good your build is, if you are still learning the rules, you have from lv 20-28quest a chose from en to ee.

This last part of your reply was kinda obscure, I didn't understand what you wanted to say here. Probably a lack of syntax. And when I said DPS i was refering to non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that.

[Ellihor]

YES! Lets just Roll the whole game back to Update 1!

They should really create another game called DDO2 and as the other dude said, do it right this time. Don't go far from the PnP 3.5 rules. That's why most people loved this game to start with.

[Bennum]

For me only EE is too difficult generally, none of my characters have ever been able to hold their own there. The closest I came to EE viable was on my Rogue who can kill well enough but she goes down in two hits. In my mind I have relegated EE to the uber crowd and given up on it. Maybe some day but not today, it does annoy me that all it seems people like to run is EE in Epic though and I have to explain alot why I have to pass when I get tells. Honestly it makes me prefer heroic gameplay where I can contribute.

[esojiul]

"This wouldn't happen. If you implement these mechanics people would want to group more, so there would be more groups. And groups would only be needed for mythic, if they don't want to wait, just play other difficulty".

Are you serious, you know wat happen, if many ppl thar are happy with their rogues, paladin, bards, etc not longer able to use them. those classes werent popular before updated 18. they will stay on the game?.

"Incorrect. Me and people I see on my server at least do epic elite all the way from 21 to 27. Most people don't even spend more than 5 minutes at 28 (or wathever the time they need o get seeds if they don't have hearts)."

Read the forum, and you will find 2 groups. People that say the game is too easy and other they cannot handle EE. The people that are saying that the game it easy are the one that are leaving. Because there is not end content and can solo they are bored of soling the quest.


"The problem with champions are the blanket immunites some of them have (started really with ToEE). Remove that and it's fine. But what's the point of champions anyways? Just buff every mob to make things a challenge, instead of a % of mobs".

I play yesterday EE Toee with a toon lv 22, was ok. Actually not so tough. Went i use my complesionist at level 28, it not a challange.


"This last part of your reply was kinda obscure, I didn't understand what you wanted to say here. Probably a lack of syntax. And when I said DPS i was refering to non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that.


IF YOU CANNOT DO A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE PER SECOND, you have a bad build. but my point high content required to have other types of build like cc, healer, trapeer etc etc.

[Ellihor]

Are you serious, you know wat happen, if many ppl thar are happy with their rogues, paladin, bards, etc not longer able to use them. those classes werent popular before updated 18. they will stay on the game?.

Yes, they will. We havee been buffing and buffing stuff and the result is that it hasn't helped to make people log. Should try the other way, obviously. Anyways, before u18 rogues were already the best mlee DPS, paladin was the best fully self suficient mlee DPS (I had a Pyrenne build at those days and it was a blast), bards wasn't that bad as well and barbs now have sacred ground. "No longer able to use them" is a completly stupid argument.


Read the forum, and you will find 2 groups. People that say the game is too easy and other they cannot handle EE. The people that are saying that the game it easy are the one that are leaving. Because there is not end content and can solo they are bored of soling the quest.

I was talking about the part you said that people at cap run lv 23 stuff.


I play yesterday EE Toee with a toon lv 22, was ok. Actually not so tough. Went i use my complesionist at level 28, it not a challange.

I didn't say it was a challenge. I said it was a problem to DC casters, and the DC caster issue is married to the game difficulty issue. My suggestion was to make all mobs harder instead of buff some individuals, because the latter just doesn't make any sense.


IF YOU CANNOT DO A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF DAMAGE PER SECOND, you have a bad build. but my point high content required to have other types of build like cc, healer, trapeer etc etc.

Got it. You did'nt understand my post in the first place and that was the confusion. As I said, when I was talking about DPS, I was refering to "[...]non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that" instead of damage per second.

[esojiul]

"Yes, they will. We havee been buffing and buffing stuff and the result is that it hasn't helped to make people log. Should try the other way, obviously. Anyways, before u18 rogues were already the best mlee DPS, paladin was the best fully self suficient mlee DPS (I had a Pyrenne build at those days and it was a blast), bards wasn't that bad as well and barbs now have sacred ground. "No longer able to use them" is a completly stupid argument."


I think you are talking for minority, rogue wast the best dps, was barbarian. Paladin whre use only as tanks, noone play bard. those days people complain about melee were trash, caster where the best builds on the game. firewall, instead kills CC, etcetc. And your argument to go back to update 18, is also stupid you havent even consider the technical aspect of doing it.

"I was talking about the part you said that people at cap run lv 23 stuff."

. You think people are happy running a lv23 quest at lv 28?. 5 levels of difference, in theory players supose to be solo the quest.

"I didn't say it was a challenge. I said it was a problem to DC casters, and the DC caster issue is married to the game difficulty issue. My suggestion was to make all mobs harder instead of buff some individuals, because the latter just doesn't make any sense".

1) My advice leave difficults EN-EH-EE, maybe take out champions from EN-EH. At the same time recycle quest for end content quest (mythical-level 34) where make all mobs harder instead and buff some individuals. so ppl are learning the game can progress and ppl full gear etc etc, can have their challange.


2)About Caster That another subject, but i agree, DC 70+% on EE or any level it crazy. The number has to be at around 60. it kills many builds except for wizards. For a mythical level: They buff champions with death wards and fom on mythical levels. if there is a wizards with a dc over 70, great for them, i dont cry if some else has a uber build. just for balance game.

3) you can play again: TOD MA LOB abbot etc etc if they become part of the end content and other quests.

Got it. You did'nt understand my post in the first place and that was the confusion. As I said, when I was talking about DPS, I was refering to "[...]non magical damage focused builds, and magical damage focused builds that are not DC focused or that doesn't use spell points for that damage (namely warlocks), I was excepting I didn't have to explain that" instead of damage per second.

[IronClan]

And start over again trying to get it right this time? Okay. Works for me. Short of starting completely over again with the very first line of code, this would be the best way to go about fixing the game. Roll allllllll the way back, crack open the pnp books, and build it right this time.

Then you're playing the wrong game and you might want to go find the one that more fits what you want. Regress? make DDO2? None of this is productive discussion, besides the fact that neither will ever happen, DDO2 would look more like NWNOnline and WOW than DDO... if that's what you want go play one or the other of those.

Now no doubt someone will try to turn this around on me and say "if you want more challenge go play another game", DDO has for 99.8% of it's existence been a game that was difficult and challenging at the higher settings, so what I want is to return to the game that on the highest setting DDO has been. Which unlike a Sequel that would never resemble DDO, or a 7 year mulligan; is actually completely plausible and IMO even highly likely to happen judging by the fact that the Dev's CLEARLY recognize the problem, and are already serious enough that "Reaper mode" UI hooks have slipped into Lam builds.

You don't make UI Assets for things that are just being spit-balled around in meetings... you make UI assets because you've bounced the idea around meetings and decided to do it in some capacity.

[esojiul]

Then you're playing the wrong game and you might want to go find the one that more fits what you want. Regress? make DDO2? None of this is productive discussion, besides the fact that neither will ever happen, DDO2 would look more like NWNOnline and WOW than DDO... if that's what you want go play one or the other of those.

Now no doubt someone will try to turn this around on me and say "if you want more challenge go play another game", DDO has for 99.8% of it's existence been a game that was difficult and challenging at the higher settings, so what I want is to return to the game that on the highest setting DDO has been. Which unlike a Sequel that would never resemble DDO, or a 7 year mulligan; is actually completely plausible and IMO even highly likely to happen judging by the fact that the Dev's CLEARLY recognize the problem, and are already serious enough that "Reaper mode" UI hooks have slipped into Lam builds.

You don't make UI Assets for things that are just being spit-balled around in meetings... you make UI assets because you've bounced the idea around meetings and decided to do it in some capacity.

Actually I agree 100% with you. The game need end content that is a challenge for experience player. DDo has susceful converted a sequence into interactive game, base on d&D 3.5rules.
Still like verything in life has a l cycle. What these game required solve it problems of lag and balance classes, ( dc most caster classes (except wizards), artificer broken (rune arm-becomes a weakness on EH-EE) , monk (no armor-light armor improved defense(dif than ppr)) etc etc.

Then relaunch the game with a real expasion, with new quest, raids, and real improvement: more option on customize character on the creation (example dragon dogma,aion), more spells, ,more classes, more races etc etc. Small things, but all the new game have them. Change korthos to something more impresive for new player. low levels able to be solo by new player, learn and enjoy the game,middle and high (epic) level start making more difficult to become a coopertive game at end content. Low level has to be the carrot for new players, introduce them to the game. Not to be hammer. End content has to keep experience player on the game, not get bored.

Now new players are hammer in low levels and went they learn the game and get full gear, it becomes boring , the game is easy on high levels.

Also new need markeintg staff, right now they are amateurs.

[Waaye]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO?
For my 28-point ranger with normal found gear almost everything above level 20 is too tedious. Much of the problem comes from exponential scaling of monsters. From the written rules based game Manshoon is a CR25 character with 133 HP. In Epic level DDO content trash orcs can have 1200 HP but Epic bows are 5W at the most. This forces the ranger to hit every mob 10 or 20 times to bring it down. That is both difficult and boring. Pew pew pew pew pew and then pew pew pew some more.


If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
Level 2 content was great for my ranger with trash dropping with 2 or three hits. The number of hits increases from there and by around level 8 so many hits re needed that grouping or bringing a hireling becomes necessary for survival.


What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
For me it is essential to win about 19 times out of twenty. If I wanted insane difficulty I would play “Nightcaster II”. The developer for that game is no more because the game was too challenging.

I also expect my character to be punished for doing things against his alignment. Any good or neutral character murdering a minotaur to frame an ambassador or wiping out an entire village of good aligned Bralani deserves to be permanently turned into a pile of poo(p). [The old “triple P” like we used to say in the old days.]


We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case?
It is essential to challenge the uber players enough to keep them happy and also make the game easy enough to attract and retain newcomers. That will be tough if everyone is playing the same content. Currently there is no way for a newcomer to contribute anything of value to a group that contains uber players. Things might work better to have different instances for characters of differing power levels.

[S3R3N1T7]

all the result of the choice up difficulty with champion was mass player leave and many become casual player week for raid.

the new player don't stay on this game because they have first life toon who die one shoot when the other run all the quest with no domage ^^
if you think that was fun be happy we are now the futur last player of ddo.

show lfm it's irefutable

and if turbine don't change this ddo will die in 6/8 month or only completionist playing to ddo. And you don't begin ddo game completionist ;)


sorry for my horrible english but i'm not natif usa

[Memnir]

Let's Talk: About how much I miss Mad Floyd. :(

[Ziindarax]

all the result of the choice up difficulty with champion was mass player leave and many become casual player week for raid.

the new player don't stay on this game because they have first life toon who die one shoot when the other run all the quest with no domage ^^
if you think that was fun be happy we are now the futur last player of ddo.

show lfm it's irefutable

and if turbine don't change this ddo will die in 6/8 month or only completionist playing to ddo. And you don't begin ddo game completionist ;)


sorry for my horrible english but i'm not natif usa

Agreed - I think there should be strong incentives promoting teamwork in a quest, rather than just running it on Elite. This would promote more team play, and hopefully, encourage newbies to stay.

I have never seen some of my parties fill so quickly since that exp event with the quest exp. One of the problems, I feel, is that DDO has become Pay-To-Win, which is something that actually turns people off imo (why bother trying to pull tomes when you can wait on Turbine to release them? Unless you're disinclined to purchase). While the community has become a lot less Elitist than when I first played this game, there's not as much player diversity on Orien as there used to be - power creep may be another factor, and it's possible that the game may be seen as TOO EASY. Why? Because they might watch a TR'ed character run through and blast everything to oblivion with contemptuous ease, especially in the heroic levels where just about anything can make it from 1-20.

My thoughts are as follows:

Award more exp through team work, and maybe even consider reducing Bravery Bonus so that it does not feel mandatory to run through on hard/elite (while it made being a third+-life character a HECK of a lot easier, I cannot help but feel that perhaps this is where things started going downhill for DDO). More Role-play, and more quests where you have a good mix of combat and puzzles might help as well.

[S3R3N1T7]

it's good idear but now it's too late

too many player leave ddo, and now it's realy randome for have full group.

Think the best solution was they do big one server when they refresh servers with all player inside.


and yes you are right for tome in store and i say the most horrible was ottobox , i have show a completionist who don't know the base of ddo play LOL, and the real completionist payer who try begin loose the glory of this chalange and the objective and leave too.

[Rickpa]

Since our best characters have likely been nerfed, I expect for much less content to be playable. So expect for there to be much more to add to this list in the near future.


The Abbot raid on normal is not to be accomplished by any but the most twitch competent players, and if we have enough of those, perhaps someone who is a casual player can be part of a winning quest. Maybe. It hasn't happened to me.

I agree with In The Flesh on elite being over the top impossible to complete at level. I guess level 28s can do it.

The House Cannith raids are also not to be played by casual players. Normal has a high failure rate.

Hound of Xoriat used to be done on elite, but now it is impossible. The named loot has been removed for normal, so doing it on normal is a waste of time.

Raids not done on any difficulty:

Temple of the Deathwyrm. Thunder Peak was tedious and difficult and unrewarding on normal, but its companion raid is over the top.

The Mark Of Death. If Ascension Chamber is a bust, what else can we expect from its epic sibling?

[Clemeit]

I can solo any Epic Hard with my eyes closed. I get absolutely destroyed in many Epic Elites. There shouldn't be such a massive difference between these difficulties. Epic Hard should be harder, and Epic Elite should be (in some cases) easier.

There should be an option upon entering a quest to be able to turn on/off monster champions. When I get hit for 500's by some stupid champion, even with 200 PRR and huge damage reduction, I'm pretty irritated...

My idea is this:
-Allow an option on the difficulty panel to turn on/off monster champions. If monster champions are turned on, +X% experience points rewarded at the end of that quest. If they are turned off, no experience point difference.
-On each champion killed, grant some sort of XP based off of a percentage of the total quest XP. This XP is greater when running elite difficulty.

I think this would allow the elitist players get their fill, and get some extra XP out of it, whilst still allowing others to run the same level content.

[KoobTheProud]

Why should anybody be able to solo Epic Elite?

Isn't that the heart of the problem? Once the highest difficulty level is soloable it creates cascading power creep issues all over the place. Then Epic Hard becomes instead Easy and everything below that becomes a joke.

[SKW]

To be blunt, the way it's set up with the Elite Bravery Bonus, Elite is basically the "Normal" mode of play, especially for TR, F2P, Efficency-obsessed, or just "Wanna level up faster" players. The Bravery Marshal is a good change, but could be better. As is, you need to tone down on the spellcaster enemies noticably, they're by far the most dangerous.

Also, to the people saying "MAKE IT HARDER IM NOT CHALLENGED" think about the entire game you're raising the stakes for rather than just the 1% or those following the builds of the 1%

To explain the problem with casters, they can easily one-shot most players that aren't built for it, and do massive damage, especially in comparison to the much lower DPS of physical enemies who rely on sustained DPS and make their locations obvious. The nerf to MRR is not the way to go. Magic damage overall needs a good looking at, especially a tank's resistance to it.

On another note, Adamantine DR really isn't anything. You don't ever find a use for it. Perhaps update it to PRR or even MRR?

[Heathir]

I have just returned after 2 years and I think he difficulty isn't the problem
The issue is the gear. I can play just fine in EN and EH with or without groups, but in EE I tend to feel like I am not as contributing of a player. Some of it is skill, twitch skills. But a big portion is gear based. So many of the items that make builds shine are from older less played raids that no one does or wants to do. But, the newer content has only added a couple of items that replace those items from older raids.

As an example two of my classes (warlock) best in slot items are arguably located in ascension chamber epic. No one runs the raid as often as I can tell, I have been on for 5 to 6 ours daily for the past two weeks getting back into this and haven't seen on raid for those locations. Shroud, thunderholme, plenty. Very little abbot, doj etc. So we are stuck trying to manipulate all our slots to find items that cover those basis and still let me get all the things I need filled.

New content should have some power creep, those items should be phased out making players use the newer gear. This allows new players to evolve along with the older base. Skill still takes time, but the framework is more attainable.

[Lence]

There isn't even a right or wrong answer left in this problem. Everyone and Everything can take part of the blame. Kinda really only 3 legit options left and someone will have to actually stick with 1 instead of flip flopping around. You are either going to cater to the high end player, new players, or come up with some middle ground and not get ****** when min/maxers/completionists/elite roll over stuffs. Some people might actually enjoy some flavor/gimp builds if they knew they weren't gonna get smacked, beaten, rolled, and robbed for doing it.

Exp - Elite is the new normal, the experience gains (especially past first lifers) made that a no brainer.

Gear - Power creeping gear is what really started this train. Greensteel. That was a power leap, not a creep. After that every answer was Mobs get MOAR HP, AC, Saves, dmg, etc. I get it, games advance, things go up, but there was some HUGE leaps in certain areas of the game, scale did not match.

Devs - Since day 1 of DDO you guys can get kinda twitchy about people doing stuff anyway other than how you wanted it done. Examples:

Stealth used to be kind of a thing back when the lvl cap was 10, people actually did it other than that 1 annoying quest in the Harbor, but then, when we did, you either added doors/levers/stealthbreakers, or magic fields where you had to kill everything to drop the barrier, etc, til hide/move silent were about useless (except maybe assassinate which wasn't even a thing then). I vaguely remember a short lived bonus xp for stealth back then, which was odd since it was obviously never intended to be used.

Dungeon Alert - OMG...because no one wanted to stand there and beat skelly archers down. Everyone complained about the skelly archers having way more HP than normal skellys, still do, still take longer to to kill, Hopping around or on top of stuff, etc. So, we started ignoring them and running by because if an undead quest took 20 minutes, 10+ of that was usually beating archers down. Then there was MOAR archers. Then, eventually, dungeon alert under some lag bla bla issues bla. yeah, i know there is abit more to it then that, but archers are just the best example.

Traps - A few years ago, I could have evasion, a reflex save around 16-20 and be good on norm/hard/elite at nearly any level. Now, Imp Evasion, level 10-12 quests on elite, getting 1 shotted by every other trap. Hmmm, well, maybe disable...but wait...a lvl 2 (2!) quest on elite, needed a...wait, +17 search. Hmmm...well...if I max my INt I can get 20 for a +5...and at lvl 2 max ranks another +5...theres...wait...thats only +10... yeah, I know, gear, enhancements, etc, but pretty much requires min-max....See what you did there? I roll with new players, they aren't gonna get it or know, kinda have to tell them not to bother with that kind of mechanic for elites otherwise they aren't going to have any fun playing their toons.

I'm just saying, sometimes, there tends to be some over-reaction to someone finding a new clever way to do something, or build, or something and it brings around nerfs, changes, etc quickly that affects entire things. Not all builds/playstyles are going to be equal, thats just the name of the game, if people wanted that that should go play a game that only allows cookie cutter everyone is the same characters. There was always alot of FOTM changes that add up.

Pay-to-win - Yeah, abit, not as bad as some games, but when you tossed in tomes that did kick it up abit, but even worse, what no one mentions, is the TRing. Past live bonus add up, and make a difference. TR should be free, especially if you sub. Yeah, you can farm junk and get them, but really, if you doing lives and not epics, who wants to farm epics for heroic lives, especially if you going completionist or 3x completion, that is a ton of heart of woods. Store is way too pricey on those, and since its become part of the normal game, that makes it pay to win.

I could go on, but its a mute point really, we all know. All I am really saying is pick a trend, stick with it instead of flopping around to each side which is gonna make things abit screwy for everyone.

[archerforever]

Since our best characters have likely been nerfed, I expect for much less content to be playable. So expect for there to be much more to add to this list in the near future.

The nerf is not real, I didn t noticed any difference to be honest ...


The Abbot raid on normal is not to be accomplished by any but the most twitch competent players, and if we have enough of those, perhaps someone who is a casual player can be part of a winning quest. Maybe. It hasn't happened to me.

I did like 70 Ascension chamber completions... and I always said what to do to new players. I also duo this raid with a friend... wanna see the screenshot ???


I agree with In The Flesh on elite being over the top impossible to complete at level. I guess level 28s can do it.

I can solo this quest on Elite lvl 16 without any problem...


Hound of Xoriat used to be done on elite, but now it is impossible. The named loot has been removed for normal, so doing it on normal is a waste of time.

Nothing is impossible one more time, just players doing elite when they are not build for it... but the fact to not have any chance to get named even on normal is sad.


Raids not done on any difficulty:

Raid not done ??? Really ??? I can't agree with this, I run any raids without any problem.


Temple of the Deathwyrm. Thunder Peak was tedious and difficult and unrewarding on normal, but its companion raid is over the top.

Temple of the deathwyrm is not so hard, already did it on Epic hard as 8 players. Thunderpeak Epic Hard as 8 players also... I dont see any problems here...


The Mark Of Death. If Ascension Chamber is a bust, what else can we expect from its epic sibling?

I actually did 20 Mark of Death in 7 days...

I really think the game is actually TOO EASY for veteran players even in Epic Elite and fine for new or casual players in normal or hard. The problem is that New or casual players with random loots wanna be as strong as completionnist with full Named stuff equiped. Found the problem ???

[Demsac]

Let's Talk: About how much I miss Mad Floyd. :(

This. And yay for bumping old threads.

[elvesunited]

My experience is that the issue is not past lives. Those feats provide marginal benefit at most. One good piece of new gear can often exceed the benefits of a dozen past lives. The biggest issue that new players have is that they don't know how to build their characters for higher difficulty content.

1) Too low hp. I've seen players booted from groups for this. ( "200 hp? You almost have to try to get hp that low!" )
2) DC Casters with too low DC. ( not really their fault, maxing DC takes a lot of effort/study )
3) Characters in epic with no self-healing outside the odd potion. ( the days of the group healer are behind us. )
4) Bad multi-class decisions
5) Character paths that turn out to be dead ends. ( Shrinking as DDO continues its class passes, but there still are some )
6) They don't know where to find the good equipment ( or don't have those packs )

[Lanhelin]

My experience is that the issue is not past lives. Those feats provide marginal benefit at most. One good piece of new gear can often exceed the benefits of a dozen past lives. The biggest issue that new players have is that they don't know how to build their characters for higher difficulty content.

1) Too low hp. I've seen players booted from groups for this. ( "200 hp? You almost have to try to get hp that low!" )
2) DC Casters with too low DC. ( not really their fault, maxing DC takes a lot of effort/study )
3) Characters in epic with no self-healing outside the odd potion. ( the days of the group healer are behind us. )
4) Bad multi-class decisions
5) Character paths that turn out to be dead ends. ( Shrinking as DDO continues its class passes, but there still are some )
6) They don't know where to find the good equipment ( or don't have those packs )

It's not only in higher difficulty, it can happen much earlier, even as vip. I came back after a long break and created a first lifer (Arti 1/Druid 1/Wizard 18) to get used to game mechanics again. While the decision to not let Champions spawn in quests below Level 5 difficulty was a very good one, there still is no introduction of champ encounters for new players. E.g. yesterday I played the quest (forgot its name) in the Cerulean Hills where I had to free the three imprisoned NPCs. I played it on Elite at level and it was the first time I encountered Champions and five of them, one even was a miniboss. In one situation my hireling and me had to fight two of them at the same time. Later fortunately I could charm one of them and he killed quite many enemies on his own. Also the boss at the end seemed to be much stronger than I remember - but maybe I'm wrong.

I survived and completed the quest - BUT this probably wouldn't have been the case when I didn't remember so many useful things a real new player even doesn't have the idea to ask for and has to learn it the very hard way (aka by getting killed and not getting too much frustrated):

7) the more spellpoints the better, because they do not regenerate over time (except up to 12 when oom). Increasing the spellpoint pool at the beginning is more effective via enhancement trees and not with items of wizardry a new player doesn't have.
8) Cleric/Druid/FvS/Bard splash, UMD or Dilettante for (scroll or self) healing.
9) when scroll healing is available to immediately buy 40 to 50 cure lesser and medium wounds scrolls and some other like lesser restoration, a.s.o.
10) when scroll healing is available to buy a melee/tank hireling and not a healing/caster one.
11) to make use of the weapon sets, because the scrolls always equip to the right hand slot and don't automatically switch back to the weapons
12) one has to know, that a hireling won't attack a previously charmed and manually released enemy on its own, one has to click on guard stance first and immediately on aggressive stance again.
13) Although CC can ease quests a lot, especially for new players, DC related CC on the other hand became a lot harder - the enemies seem to more often save than lose the roll, even in low level quests. This doesn't really encourage new players to focus on CC, but rather skill for plain dps (I remember better times, so at least I won't, with hope to get the better times back some day^^)
14) elite traps are still lethal. Anyhow, (new) players who splash Rogue or Arti for trap skills or play them pure, need items that buff these skills, because the DCs are higher a Rogue/Arti with just maxed skills at every level could successfully disable.
15) how to avoid traps without having trap skills (and to know which ones aren't avoidable).
16) to know that it's much better to plan a toon before playing it. Prereqs, enhancements, multiclass or not, when to take which level of classes, what ability scores are needed for this or that feat - the game itself doesn't offer a char planner, one has to use third party programs for it.

In another thread I read someones opinion about DDO's difficulty: "it's hard to learn and easy to master" - I fully agree, and the learning curve takes 95% of playtime and the mastered one only 5% I'd say.

[Bighunter]

I know im coming in to this thread late, but I think the game should go back to about update 10, when there was no dungeon scaling where you could not solo quests and had to run with a full balanced group, example: having a live healer or two in the group. Another example is someone was talking about weapons shipment, full group 300+ mobs and solo only 90 or so. why not have it when you go in solo it should be 300+ mods that you have to run in a group. I know i am repeating myself but that is the way the game use to be and was meant to be played, not players soloing content from levels 1-20, my main character is on his 12th life. and for the past 3-4 lives because of gear and ship buffs and scaling I have soloed 90% of heroic levels. So I am asking to make the game so players have to run in groups.

[Selvera]

I also agree that quests should be more party focused, there are a number of ways to do this. (These ideas should probably be used in different quests for variety, not all in the same quest to make it impossible to solo).

Mobs that apply various debuffs such as silencing the target (can't cast any spells or use clickies), immobilizing the target (no kiting!), Preventing the target from healing themselves (but they can still be healed by others), lowering the target's damage (or preventing them from attacking). These effects shouldn't be able to be removed via potions or scrolls, most should be much easier to remove via a different player casting a remove debuff spell on you (or impossible to remove yourself). Some of them should be impossible to remove until the fight is over.
- These all encourage teamwork being stronger then solo play. For example a low damage tank who can't attack until the mob is killed is still useful (if they can keep agro), while a high damage solo DPS who can't attack until the mob is killed is useless and needs a friend/party to help them out.

Mobs that negate some of the better gear in the game, such as ignoring blur, ghostly, critical strikes, double-strike, etc. (obviously these aren't everywhere, so the best gear in the game is still the best)
- This is to reduce the power differential between best-geared completionists and newer players.

Mobs that adapt to what's attacking them, reducing or negating further damage from that type. (Say you're shooting it with a bow, it becomes immune to piercing damage but your fighter can still hit it with a kopesh for slashing damage, then it becomes immune to slashing damage so you can shoot it with your bow again).
- Means that players have to either have a party or have a hybrid build to deal with these enemies.

Mobs that can't be kited (much faster then the players, immobilize the player at range, teleport to the player and attack, deal meaningful ranged damage)
- This is to add a balancing factor between melee and ranged characters, so that ranged characters can't just kite everything in the game no matter how hard it is. Also promotes letting the tank take agro.

Mobs that are easier (much easier) to kill if you're flanking them, even if you don't have a rogue. (Maybe a hydra needs you to cut off all three heads at the same time, Maybe the weak point is behind them and the only way to get there is have someone else pull agro.)

Quests that require levers in different locations to be pulled to proceed, where either they need to be pulled at the same time or that trap the other person until a different lever is pulled. (These exist, but they're a good way to promote teamwork, especially if it's not an obvious "hireling/dog, run over there and pull the lever" type of thing)
- If you must have 2+ people to finish a quest, you'll have 2+ people when you want to run the quest. I happen to like quests like this.

Parts of quests that heavily encourage alternate playing styles, such as a stealth section where the rogue needs to sneak into a castle to open the gate for their party, or the druid/ranger needs to calm enraged animals to ask them for help, or the wizard/bard needs to uncover arcane secrets that no one else can. These should be something that ONLY that class/specialization is able to do effectively, and give the rest of the party something to do while they wait.
- Adds quest diversity, if multiple of these sections are in the same quest it also forces partying with people with specific talents to complete the quest.

Quests that have varying DC's for different traps.
- It sucks if you're the trapper and you have 42 search when you need 43 search for every single trap in a quest. If the quest had one trap DC 25, one DC 38 and one DC 44 then the "weak" trapper could still be useful -> for 2 of the traps, but not as good as the dedicated min/max trapper who has 50 search skill.

Tanks need to be able to pull agro, even if their DPS-ers out dps them by a fair margin.
Buffs by supports need to provide meaningful benefits that stack with whatever uber-geared players have.
Healing should be more useful when used on allies then on yourself.
DPS should be more efficient if the mob is focusing a tank then focusing the DPS.
- If only DPS do their role effectively anymore, the other roles need a little buff to come into line, or DPS needs a nerf, but it's easier to buff then to nerf without losing players.

Some good things that should remain very relevant at higher difficulties/higher levels are:
- Skill checks to make the quest easier and/or grant bonus XP. (bluff/diplomacy/intimidate/spellcraft/heal, even perform) (These promote bringing multiple people who happen to have these skills along on the quest).
- Traps, unavoidable traps, disarm-able traps, easily disarmed high-damage unavoidable traps. (Encourages bringing along a rogue/artificer in the quest, and not just for the DPS).
- locked doors/chests and hidden doors for bonus loot/xp (Again rogue/artificers love this)

Note: A lot of these changes will theoretically increase difficulty. This could be compensated by mobs doing less damage/having less health so that the difficulty level isn't changed for a balanced party, if it's at a decent balance already.

[Pnumbra]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Hi,

Thanks for reaching out to your gaming population. On the idea of difficulty, I like so many will quickly address the levels currently used and their consequences. To begin with, there is no real consequence for dying. The small XP penalty is not felt at all. Please make dying count, make it painful, make it something to avoid. My perspective is from a relatively new player, just reach my one year of play in December 2015.

Solo: Not really needed. It doesn't reduce the trial and error phase of learning.
Normal: Ok at level on first life - downward slope as past heroic/epic lives raise the power base
Hard: Ok at level on first life - downward slope as past heroic/epic lives raise the power base
Epic: Situational - some are over the top while others are fine. Players really don't do EE at level but wait until level cap and go back.

These are just a general impression of what I have seen and experienced. I often think Hard should be Normal. Epic quest should be fundamentally different content wise. When we enter a EE quest, the scenery may be the same, but the encounter mob types, traps and trap locations, and mini/boss fights should be very different.

I realize the ability to make DDO more challenging is a lofty endeavor due to its static nature.

[S3R3N1T7]

I can solo any Epic Hard with my eyes closed. I get absolutely destroyed in many Epic Elites. There shouldn't be such a massive difference between these difficulties. Epic Hard should be harder, and Epic Elite should be (in some cases) easier.

There should be an option upon entering a quest to be able to turn on/off monster champions. When I get hit for 500's by some stupid champion, even with 200 PRR and huge damage reduction, I'm pretty irritated...

My idea is this:
-Allow an option on the difficulty panel to turn on/off monster champions. If monster champions are turned on, +X% experience points rewarded at the end of that quest. If they are turned off, no experience point difference.
-On each champion killed, grant some sort of XP based off of a percentage of the total quest XP. This XP is greater when running elite difficulty.

I think this would allow the elitist players get their fill, and get some extra XP out of it, whilst still allowing others to run the same level content.



long time have beg this and many player beg same but nothing.....

and don't think turbine accept the reality, champion is **** !!! if player have choice to play with champion or disable them, all know realy big majority of player disable them. But, on ddo a minority elitist have voice with developper. No surprise ! They develope game for minority who have fun and other hope the fun come back.

many time i'have reflection if i leave ddo, and i wait. Because i have take good time with ddo long times ago but now, the news implementation kill fun and game more and more !

champion --> i don't want play with champion and why i don't have choice!! champion only on hard and elite is stupide , do an option !!!!!!!!!!!

warlock --> whaaaaaaaaaaa it's fun lol I have take time up completionist toon and ecompletionist too and warlock first life can clear the quest more easely like me !!!! where the objectif , win ddo if new class or race do all other toon trash front of is fun, i don't think !!!

lvl 30 --> epique and heroic splint community one time. ddo now loses more players than he gains and what they do ??? they splint an other time the community !!!!!! why they don't open new raid and don't up lvl 28 ???? because small portion of player elitiste beg an other time more big extrem difficulty but want more power too lol are they schizophrenic ??? yes i think ;p



And now i wait the new race for see the new aberation they will do ! because i think they like the way they take :(

i stay for see but i have no good suprise update after update just bad filling for DDO life a game i have liked !

[Discpsycho]

S3R3N1T7, I really doubt people would disable champions in heroic dungeons. Occasionally folks might do it for things like Acute Delirium, the Trial of the Archons chain or the Devil's Details chain because those quests are already difficult. For a lot of players, they're the only things that make the rest of the heroic dungeons challenging. In EN you rarely see any, and in EH their damage isn't off the charts. In all three of these cases, they seem pretty worthwhile for loot purposes - despite a player's thoughts on the slight added challenge, the occasional remnant chests and the collection rewards are pretty nifty.

Regarding champions in EE, they're brutal. I'm currently going through a squishy life and find myself getting 2-shot occasionally. But since EE is just the right challenge level for me with my current gear/build/metagame knowledge and I am forced to take the time to do a two-second appraisal before a pull, champions aren't a huge imposition. They encourage me to use tactics, CC, or simply pull people around corners. I'm not sure whether uber completionists who can stop EE feel the same way, but my hunch is that they do.

I won't disagree that warlocks are incredibly strong, but they're not invincible or all-powerful. The folks that can clear trash with SB/EB are really geared. Chain blast is strong in heroics but can fall behind DC casting (outside of LE) or large AOE pulls in epics. An extra 400 temporary health might mean you can only survive one extra blow if you don't have the PRR to back it up, and those characters are typically in heavy armor and/or shielded, meaning they miss out on casting Warlock spells.

Turbine's apparently been talking about raising the cap to 30 for a loooong time, but this seems to be the highest they're planning on taking it, presumably so that they can develop an endgame. On one hand, you're right - more levels means a greater chance that a random player will be outside your level range and therefore the average group is going to be slightly smaller. But especially with the introduction of LGS, the hamsterwheel TR process seems to be shifting further in favor of Epics instead of Heroics, which means a larger proportion of players will be in a 10-level range and can all theoretically quest together. My guess is that once a few more level 30 raids are released (or maybe some of the current ones are slightly revamped), people will start parking more toons at the cap, increasing the raid culture

[kerupted]

i did not try to read every post, but yes the difficulty is kinda of meh. right now with the increase boosts to Hound of Xoriat, Tempest Spine and shroud, knowing how the quests worked with just a beefier version was fun. I have to completely shame down Defiler of the Just raid, i knew tons of players who were waiting for legendary/epic Tower of Despair. that raid along side heroic Abbot and Lord of Blades were worth the battle, knowing that something can go wrong, most of the quests/raids nowadays we can run while studying for a test.

[Anuulified]

I find on different builds the game plays anywhere from easy to difficult. To illustrate, on my Paladin/Fighter/Rog 15/3/2 I can solo just about anything EE, in light armor, (excluding raids, and solo isn't what I prefer, but some days!), and if I can't solo it, I bring Garrett and win. However, on my alts I can barely do anything without a group on EE, though EH is easy for them, unless I'm running, kiting, hiked up on a ledge etc..., but then again they are "squishy's". This is all done without ever TRing in my nearly 10 years on and off of DDO, however, I have respected many times due to changes / nerfs.

[psi0nix]

I find on different builds the game plays anywhere from easy to difficult. To illustrate, on my Paladin/Fighter/Rog 15/3/2 I can solo just about anything EE, in light armor, (excluding raids, and solo isn't what I prefer, but some days!), and if I can't solo it, I bring Garrett and win. However, on my alts I can barely do anything without a group on EE, though EH is easy for them, unless I'm running, kiting, hiked up on a ledge etc..., but then again they are "squishy's". This is all done without ever TRing in my nearly 10 years on and off of DDO, however, I have respected many times due to changes / nerfs.

This - go into wheloon quest lvl 15 on 1st life warlock, decimate solo or 2 man, go into same quest on lvl 15 palemaster 5th life (sorc/wiz/sorc/wiz/wiz) - mobs are immune to just about everything, death ward on the shar disciples for some reason seems to protect them from firewall and polar ray ... no mana in 5 minutes and end up having to just sit there in aura using my dagger to slowly slowly beat down the enemy one at a time.... not terribly happy with the way that plays out. Is there really a need to make palemasters non-viable in those quests ?

It wouldn't be so annoying if you couldn't just waltz in on a 1st life warlock and decimate everything in minutes.

[HumbleDevildog]

I'm a long time player with not much time for grinding, and I find almost all of the new content too difficult at level on elite, because it seems that it's assumed everyone left is an uberplayer. I don't mind a challenge, but it's frustrating having to tell friends I'm guiding through the game "yeah, we can't do [that quest], because it's way too difficult for new players. Maybe in three or four years, we can try it".

TRs should be exceptional toons, not minimum playable toons.

[SirValentine]

Nice necro of 6+-year-old thread!


I'm a long time player with not much time for grinding, and I find almost all of the new content too difficult at level on elite


Elite should be for the elite, and Hard should be hard. When that's actually true, that's a good thing. It's, in fact, not true for most content.

Is Normal too hard? If so, that would be a problem. Maybe the real problem is expecting you should be able to do Elite instead of Normal.

[Hjeal_meh]

Nice necro of 6+-year-old thread!



Elite should be for the elite, and Hard should be hard. When that's actually true, that's a good thing. It's, in fact, not true for most content.

Is Normal too hard? If so, that would be a problem. Maybe the real problem is expecting you should be able to do Elite instead of Normal.

Difficulty should be CONSISTENT across all quests in a level range.

In my opinion most should be tuned up, a few should be tuned down a little.

But it should be consistent, the game isn't.

Or if not consistent the XP should be more, that would be fine also.

[Seikojin]

Nice necro of 6+-year-old thread!

Elite should be for the elite, and Hard should be hard. When that's actually true, that's a good thing. It's, in fact, not true for most content.

Is Normal too hard? If so, that would be a problem. Maybe the real problem is expecting you should be able to do Elite instead of Normal.


Difficulty should be CONSISTENT across all quests in a level range.

In my opinion most should be tuned up, a few should be tuned down a little.

But it should be consistent, the game isn't.

Or if not consistent the XP should be more, that would be fine also.

A while back it was brought up that the game should have options to increase difficulty. Not explicitly as options, but something that players control to increase difficulty. The big issue with N/H/E for the difficulty: it doesn't scale indefinitely. And in a game that allows players to go in over level, under level, or max level: you can never use a fixed system like N/H/E to give those players adequate challenge without making players take a penalty of some kind. Like a debuff. No one wants that. It is complicated to implement, maintain, and it has scaling issues as well. You could do some Band-Aid like strokes, like halving everything if you are one level higher, -75% for 2, and -99% for 3+.... However people will learn how to work around it (like everything else) and it becomes the new normal and everyone takes the penalties.

However, Reaper goes a looong way to adding a scalable difficulty. It does the band aid penalties, however promotes group play. It doesn't give you any huge advantages for playing that advance the character directly. However the biggest boon it provides is a named loot boost. It is almost the new normal, but it is just hard enough that it has not become the new common run (at least on Sarlona).

So far, I have found most quests in ddo have been consistent. If they are easy, I get some exp. If they are hard, they give more exp. If they are short or have shortcuts, they give less exp. If they are long, they give more exp. Early on I thought some quests were too hard for their exp, however after dedicating some time to soloing the quests, I have learned they are all very well balanced for the most part. The only ones that do not are the newest and they eventually get retooled for more balanced rewards for the work.

[elvesunited]

well My wife and I decided to do Ravenloft unspoiled.

dragonborn 10th level bard
aasimar 5th war cleric 6th level fighter
( with cleric hires )

Intro Elite: SUCCESS - not that hard

Pie Quest: Elite FAIL - due to enemy spellcaster unbalance. Multiple will o wisps ( some champs ) appearing at once and all firing damage spells at the same time at a single target results in dead target. Granted I could have tried again with nightshield scrolls but the point holds, this quest is murderous on heroic unless you have protection vs magic missiles. Repeated at Normal and won.

Death house: Elite FAIL - due to trap immediately followed by skeleton ambush. Trap can handle. Ambush can handle. The combination wiped us. Repeated on Normal and won.

Invitation: Normal FAIL - Due to lag at the spinning trap pit. I often get lag when coming out of a loading screen. Putting a trap immediately on the characters when they come out of a loading screen is mean. Repeated on normal with a much better idea what we were doing and succeeded.

Ruins of Threnal Elite SUCCESS - Took a break from Ravenloft to level the characters and get a Mantle for True Sight secret door detection. Elite Threnal was roughly equal to normal Ravenloft in difficulty.

Light the Beacon Normal SUCCESS -
Ravenloft castle return - Normal SUCCESS
Tea Party - Normal SUCCESS

Amber quest? - Wilderness FAIL. Well this was a disaster. First we went the wrong way and got a little lost. Then we got bombarded by wave after wave of flame skulls and ice mephits. They just straight wore us down without a shrine in sight. Got very close to quest entrance when a group of about 20 flameskulls finally just managed to break us as we had almost no spellpoints left. Now that we know the way, and will be better prepared I'm sure we'll make it next time. But **** I didn't see that coming.

---------------------------------------------

So yeah I do see significant increase in difficulty from Ravenloft compared to previous content. Though its not a straight progression. Newcomers and Black and Blue are probably tougher. And a lot of our problems can be tracked down to going in unspoiled with no evasion or trapper.

[Seikojin]

well My wife and I decided to do Ravenloft unspoiled.

dragonborn 10th level bard
aasimar 5th war cleric 6th level fighter
( with cleric hires )

Intro Elite: SUCCESS - not that hard

Pie Quest: Elite FAIL - due to enemy spellcaster unbalance. Multiple will o wisps ( some champs ) appearing at once and all firing damage spells at the same time at a single target results in dead target. Granted I could have tried again with nightshield scrolls but the point holds, this quest is murderous on heroic unless you have protection vs magic missiles. Repeated at Normal and won.

Death house: Elite FAIL - due to trap immediately followed by skeleton ambush. Trap can handle. Ambush can handle. The combination wiped us. Repeated on Normal and won.

Invitation: Normal FAIL - Due to lag at the spinning trap pit. I often get lag when coming out of a loading screen. Putting a trap immediately on the characters when they come out of a loading screen is mean. Repeated on normal with a much better idea what we were doing and succeeded.

Ruins of Threnal Elite SUCCESS - Took a break from Ravenloft to level the characters and get a Mantle for True Sight secret door detection. Elite Threnal was roughly equal to normal Ravenloft in difficulty.

Light the Beacon Normal SUCCESS -
Ravenloft castle return - Normal SUCCESS
Tea Party - Normal SUCCESS

Amber quest? - Wilderness FAIL. Well this was a disaster. First we went the wrong way and got a little lost. Then we got bombarded by wave after wave of flame skulls and ice mephits. They just straight wore us down without a shrine in sight. Got very close to quest entrance when a group of about 20 flameskulls finally just managed to break us as we had almost no spellpoints left. Now that we know the way, and will be better prepared I'm sure we'll make it next time. But **** I didn't see that coming.

---------------------------------------------

So yeah I do see significant increase in difficulty from Ravenloft compared to previous content. Though its not a straight progression. Newcomers and Black and Blue are probably tougher. And a lot of our problems can be tracked down to going in unspoiled with no evasion or trapper.

Mind you, I am a lvl 13 with lvl 13 gear, however I am not finding Ravenloft unbearable alone. I agree the respawning trash mobs is kind of obscene. It diminishes the value of players efforts to take out the mobs on heroic. Epic it is expected to see respawns.

[HumbleDevildog]

Nice necro of 6+-year-old thread!



Elite should be for the elite, and Hard should be hard. When that's actually true, that's a good thing. It's, in fact, not true for most content.

Is Normal too hard? If so, that would be a problem. Maybe the real problem is expecting you should be able to do Elite instead of Normal.

I would agree if the difficulties weren't so scattered about. I can solo most content on elite at or even a little below level, but not the newer content. I can see the arguments for scaling difficulty up or down, but it's the wide variety of difficulty that is the issue for me.

If elite was really hard across the board, then yup! I agree! Elite is for elite players and teams! But it's not. The older the content, the easier it is. The newer the content, the harder it is. Quest difficulty has no real bearing on that.

I'm really not saying the game is too easy or too hard, because it's both, depending on what content one is playing at the time. It's the unpredictable nature of the difficulty I'm addressing.

Just throwing out ideas, maybe heroic content on elite under lvl 10 should be "just be smarter than an average PUG" to beat, lvl 11-15 content should be "apply what you learned the last 10-14 levels", and lvl 16-20 content should be "pay attention and bring your A game" difficult. Epic should be epic. Epic toons are theoretically interfering in the plans of gods and demons, and that shouldn't be a cakewalk. But even in epic quests, there's a wide disparity between difficulties (EE Sands is pretty easy, EE Schyndrlyn is brutal. Same lvl).

I will admit I'm somewhere between "casual player" and "dedicated player", so I'm not the best equipped or built toons, but I've played enough to know whether a quest is too difficult for my group or too easy, especially for new players (I drag a friend into the game every couple of months). Dedicated players think a lot of the quests are too easy, and casual players think a lot of the same quests are too hard. I'm sitting in between them and saying "they're both right, depending on where they are"

[Hjeal_meh]

Consistency = good.

[KoobTheProud]

Hierarchy of difficulty in DDO from least to most:

1. Heroic content through Update 13.
2. Heroic MotU content.
3. Heroic content through Update 26 with the exception of Temple of Elemental Evil.
4. Trial of the Archons+ big jump here and all heroic content prior to this is noticeably easier by comparison except for raids and ToEE.
5. Against the Slavelords+ another big jump in difficulty with monster health and damage both boosted significantly.

That's the 5 tiers of heroic difficulty to-date, with most new content since Slavelords at a similar level of difficulty.

If you know this hierarchy you can plan where to level to the best effect with a given build. Some classes shrug off the difficulty tiers better than others due to the power of the class in heroics.

I TR less powerful builds mainly in tier 1 and 2 with a couple of the Shadowfell chains thrown in. I'd much rather have SSG spend development time on creating new content as opposed to going back and reworking old content to be consistent with the ever-increasing difficulty levels that new content and power creep create.

[Powerhungry]

well My wife and I decided to do Ravenloft unspoiled.

dragonborn 10th level bard
aasimar 5th war cleric 6th level fighter
( with cleric hires )

Intro Elite: SUCCESS - not that hard

Pie Quest: Elite FAIL - due to enemy spellcaster unbalance. Multiple will o wisps ( some champs ) appearing at once and all firing damage spells at the same time at a single target results in dead target. Granted I could have tried again with nightshield scrolls but the point holds, this quest is murderous on heroic unless you have protection vs magic missiles. Repeated at Normal and won.

Death house: Elite FAIL - due to trap immediately followed by skeleton ambush. Trap can handle. Ambush can handle. The combination wiped us. Repeated on Normal and won.

Invitation: Normal FAIL - Due to lag at the spinning trap pit. I often get lag when coming out of a loading screen. Putting a trap immediately on the characters when they come out of a loading screen is mean. Repeated on normal with a much better idea what we were doing and succeeded.

Ruins of Threnal Elite SUCCESS - Took a break from Ravenloft to level the characters and get a Mantle for True Sight secret door detection. Elite Threnal was roughly equal to normal Ravenloft in difficulty.

Light the Beacon Normal SUCCESS -
Ravenloft castle return - Normal SUCCESS
Tea Party - Normal SUCCESS

Amber quest? - Wilderness FAIL. Well this was a disaster. First we went the wrong way and got a little lost. Then we got bombarded by wave after wave of flame skulls and ice mephits. They just straight wore us down without a shrine in sight. Got very close to quest entrance when a group of about 20 flameskulls finally just managed to break us as we had almost no spellpoints left. Now that we know the way, and will be better prepared I'm sure we'll make it next time. But **** I didn't see that coming.

---------------------------------------------

So yeah I do see significant increase in difficulty from Ravenloft compared to previous content. Though its not a straight progression. Newcomers and Black and Blue are probably tougher. And a lot of our problems can be tracked down to going in unspoiled with no evasion or trapper.
the wisps (or anything with multi-shot capabilities) are usually auto killing players if it happens to pop as a champ. One shot of chain missiles can instantly give you 5 shacks of champ DoT poison, in addition to its regular damage (and remove poison doesn't remove it). One bad champ spawn can ruin a quest. I seldom run the new content after the archon update, it just scales too significantly for quests of their supposed level and champ artificially increase the level by an unknown and totally random amount.

[elvesunited]

update: ravenloft questing

dragonborn 11th level bard
aasimar 5th war cleric 7th level fighter
( with cleric hires )

Amber quest: Normal Success. Lots of flame skulls, but we were much smarter this time and kept a constant nightshield at all times. Also amber has a lot of corridors and corners. Fighting distance spellcasters is much easier when the terrain allows you to duck around a corner for a breather. This is much easier than the pie quest where you are basically in a large wide open field. Note we didn't do the optional because we went in "unspoiled".

Wine quest: Normal Success.

Lightning Hill: Normal FAIL. Got to the top unloaded on the archdruid. Got swarmed. Too many casters. Lagged. Dead. Tried again and succeeded but it was a very tough fight. Cleric died. But the bard managed to take out the druids from a distance while using higher movement speed to avoid the blights. I have since taken one of my epic characters and repeated these quests in reaper 1. Here I discovered that the archdruid was summoning new mob at I think 75% 50% and 25% health. ( Smack head! ) That explains a lot! Our kill the caster first strategy backfired horribly when we ignored the mob and focuses all attacks on the boss!

Mist Town: Normal Success. Scarecrows are no threat to a fear immune aasimar melee and a distance attacking bard. And wolves and hounds if they get heavy can take music naps. Note when I repeated on Epic Reaper with my epic character the witch herself was a royal pain with overlapping paralyzers and dancers.

Abbey: Normal Success. Remarkably straightforward quest with almost no casters.

Overview:

Invitation to Dinner is the hardest quest with some tough fights in it even on normal. Outside of that quest, the biggest issue is massed spellcasters particularly if you lack a way to counter magic missiles. The later quests actually seemed easier except for lightning hill which was "going in unspoiled" issue.

[Elor_OnceDark]

I think the main issue with the game difficulty is the huge power difference between classes atm.
I don't want to jump on the "OMG Warlock is too powerful train, either".
The main issue imho is the difference between ranged / spellcasters and melee classes. In the past we have seen a huge increase in thrower / monkcher / warlock builds since for many people these are the only option of being able to solo higher difficulty quests, since they neither run out of spellpoints nor need to be able to "tank" champion damage.
Classical melee builds drop massively in epic unless you got a ****load of equip and pastlifes, and even then the wrong combination of champions can just 1-hit you even with 200 - 250 prr, and there is no option of just "kiting" or ccing these mobs, since saves are ridiculously high in some cases (i.e. stunning fist dc 102 fails vs mobs in lvl 27EE quests).
The problem with spellcasters is an entirely different one, since most (especially newer quests) only consist of huge groups of mobs, you need to dish out loads of spellpoints per fight (especially with the newer deathward system, which basically makes it impossible to instakill 3/4 of epic mobs due to the epic ward, which can't be surpressed with stuff like sphere of invulnerability), causing them to barely make it from shrine to shrine.
The only classes excluded from this are the shiradi mm spammer and ranged classes (which are like 3/4 off all builds i see in EE).

My Suggestions for a better game-balance would be :

Champions :
Restrict the combinations of possible random traits for champions - 3 champions with extra damage , 2 types of damage over time and extra elemental damage in one wave is just too much for most solo players.
Even a limitation on 2-times the player count maxchamps per group on EE quests might help here.

Melee classes vs Ranged classes :
Give melees an option of damage migration that isn't avaiable for ranged classes, I understand that this is quite a hard thing todo without creating "impenetrable tanks", but excluding warlocks and everyone who is using a thrown or ranged weapon from using this mechanic could be a step in the right directions.

Spellcasters :
I think a viable option here could be rework some of the commonly used spells and change to instakill / deathward mechanic. It might be beneficial to have spells which to a %max Hp based damage (it could be capped vs purple bosses , so noone just pseudo-instakills raid bosses) and give an option to circumvent epic wards. Also for some classes it might be beneficial to lower spellpoint costs.
Again spellpoints are an issue mainly people without many pastlifes and loads of gear will face, still I don't think it's a good idea to balance the higher difficulty game around tripple completionist)

Connected to this a quick suggestion connected to quest diffuculty / design :
Larger groups or huge hitpoint pools for enemys don't make a quest more interesting, quite the opposite - it gets boring to grind down the 50th 12-man group of druids / temple guards / etc. and at some point you just stop playing these quests since they are just annoying or yo play through them just because you have to (which is a bad motivation for playing).
Even some of the newer Ravenloft quests are (from my point of view after being a Pen and Paper GM for more than 20 years) like a textbook how to NOT design a good quest. And I'm not talking about the general story / design, more about the setup of enemy groups and general quest target design. I don't wanna go more into detail here, since prob. noone is reading down to this point anyway, but I'll gladly elaborate if requested.

[fmalfeas]

Spellcasters :
I think a viable option here could be rework some of the commonly used spells and change to instakill / deathward mechanic. It might be beneficial to have spells which to a %max Hp based damage (it could be capped vs purple bosses , so noone just pseudo-instakills raid bosses) and give an option to circumvent epic wards. Also for some classes it might be beneficial to lower spellpoint costs.
Again spellpoints are an issue mainly people without many pastlifes and loads of gear will face, still I don't think it's a good idea to balance the higher difficulty game around tripple completionist)

Connected to this a quick suggestion connected to quest diffuculty / design :
Larger groups or huge hitpoint pools for enemys don't make a quest more interesting, quite the opposite - it gets boring to grind down the 50th 12-man group of druids / temple guards / etc. and at some point you just stop playing these quests since they are just annoying or yo play through them just because you have to (which is a bad motivation for playing).
Even some of the newer Ravenloft quests are (from my point of view after being a Pen and Paper GM for more than 20 years) like a textbook how to NOT design a good quest. And I'm not talking about the general story / design, more about the setup of enemy groups and general quest target design. I don't wanna go more into detail here, since prob. noone is reading down to this point anyway, but I'll gladly elaborate if requested.

We technically have exactly the spell for that job. It's expensive, and slow to cast even when quickened, and does NOTHING to 90% of mobs. 'Realistically' (by tabletop rules and it's own description) it should also temporarily make reds and purples vulnerable to some status effects (though purples I'd assume you'd risk the 'broke an artifact backlash' if you succeeded). Mordenkainen's Disjunction. The spell that suppresses all magic items (Arrgh, the adventurer's shut off my Deathblock Ring!) and can even break artifacts (though you might lose your casting ability from it...AKA, 25% chance of being silenced until dead if you succeeded in make a purple vulnerable to debuffs...for a few minutes. Harsh decision if it's worth doing, but if you've got a lot of rogues, blinding something to open it up to SA could boost the raid's DPS enormously. And prolong the lifespan of the tank. Or exposing it to Slow, or Exhaustion.)

[Seikojin]

I think the main issue with the game difficulty is the huge power difference between classes atm.
I don't want to jump on the "OMG Warlock is too powerful train, either".
The main issue imho is the difference between ranged / spellcasters and melee classes. In the past we have seen a huge increase in thrower / monkcher / warlock builds since for many people these are the only option of being able to solo higher difficulty quests, since they neither run out of spellpoints nor need to be able to "tank" champion damage.
Classical melee builds drop massively in epic unless you got a ****load of equip and pastlifes, and even then the wrong combination of champions can just 1-hit you even with 200 - 250 prr, and there is no option of just "kiting" or ccing these mobs, since saves are ridiculously high in some cases (i.e. stunning fist dc 102 fails vs mobs in lvl 27EE quests).
The problem with spellcasters is an entirely different one, since most (especially newer quests) only consist of huge groups of mobs, you need to dish out loads of spellpoints per fight (especially with the newer deathward system, which basically makes it impossible to instakill 3/4 of epic mobs due to the epic ward, which can't be surpressed with stuff like sphere of invulnerability), causing them to barely make it from shrine to shrine.
The only classes excluded from this are the shiradi mm spammer and ranged classes (which are like 3/4 off all builds i see in EE).

My Suggestions for a better game-balance would be :

Champions :
Restrict the combinations of possible random traits for champions - 3 champions with extra damage , 2 types of damage over time and extra elemental damage in one wave is just too much for most solo players.
Even a limitation on 2-times the player count maxchamps per group on EE quests might help here.

Melee classes vs Ranged classes :
Give melees an option of damage migration that isn't avaiable for ranged classes, I understand that this is quite a hard thing todo without creating "impenetrable tanks", but excluding warlocks and everyone who is using a thrown or ranged weapon from using this mechanic could be a step in the right directions.

Spellcasters :
I think a viable option here could be rework some of the commonly used spells and change to instakill / deathward mechanic. It might be beneficial to have spells which to a %max Hp based damage (it could be capped vs purple bosses , so noone just pseudo-instakills raid bosses) and give an option to circumvent epic wards. Also for some classes it might be beneficial to lower spellpoint costs.
Again spellpoints are an issue mainly people without many pastlifes and loads of gear will face, still I don't think it's a good idea to balance the higher difficulty game around tripple completionist)

Connected to this a quick suggestion connected to quest diffuculty / design :
Larger groups or huge hitpoint pools for enemys don't make a quest more interesting, quite the opposite - it gets boring to grind down the 50th 12-man group of druids / temple guards / etc. and at some point you just stop playing these quests since they are just annoying or yo play through them just because you have to (which is a bad motivation for playing).
Even some of the newer Ravenloft quests are (from my point of view after being a Pen and Paper GM for more than 20 years) like a textbook how to NOT design a good quest. And I'm not talking about the general story / design, more about the setup of enemy groups and general quest target design. I don't wanna go more into detail here, since prob. noone is reading down to this point anyway, but I'll gladly elaborate if requested.

I think the biggest issue with game difficulty is the definition. What is game difficulty in ddo? How we players see it, how the code developers see it, how the producers see it, and how the product designers see it, can all vary enough to where something never hits the best mark for any one of them, but hits a working mark for all of them. And I agree, Game difficulty is a problem in ddo on many levels. I feel classes need balancing, I feel quests need balancing, and I feel gear needs balancing. However I think all the things out here and there that really add more restrictions will just make game difficulty a harder thing to maintain and control.

The best way to manage game difficulty would be to detatch from the d20 system entirely and be something a lot more linear and scalable. This way there is no question or mystery. However one of the best attributes in ddo is being able to build something that overcomes the challenges put out there. The other being that, as time is going on, more and more content is coming out that you don't have to play in order to cap. I mean, why balance quest content when you can have a 1 - cap quest series unique to fighters. 1 - cap for rogues. Etc. I would love it if a questline existed where npcs did all the work and being a healer was the role. Or a questline where npcs did the heavy lifting and you did dialog options to help solve social puzzles. Then pure puzzle quests, with trapped puzzles that are disarmed to allow progression.

Unlike most other products out there, those options are completely on the table for ddo. Even with their crazy npc ai.

[fmalfeas]

I would love it if a questline existed where npcs did all the work and being a healer was the role. Or a questline where npcs did the heavy lifting and you did dialog options to help solve social puzzles. Then pure puzzle quests, with trapped puzzles that are disarmed to allow progression.

Unlike most other products out there, those options are completely on the table for ddo. Even with their crazy npc ai.

I would call the first arc 'MEDIC!!!' And it would be House D, or PDK.

I would call the second arc 'Honeyed Words and Silver Tongues' and it would be House P or Harpers.

The third I'd call 'Fear to Tread' and it would be a mix of House P, House C, Free Agents, Gatekeepers, and House K, leading you into all sorts of strange things like ruining someone's summoning portal, disabling an illegal creation forge knockoff (in a way that House C can study it, not just blow it up like Haywire's), helping House K forces get control of one of their vaults back from people who managed to take it over, defeating a large invading force by setting and activating traps, and infiltrating secure compounds to steal important intel.

[elvesunited]

Difficulty isn't a straight line. What one character may find a cakewalk another may find extremely difficult.

Ranged characters do better in open areas against slow enemies. But put them in a enclosed space with little room to maneuver or avoid enemies and they're at a hefty disadvantage. ( I can think of at least 2 such places in ravenloft ) They're also more vulnerable than tanks in quests where the enemy can temporarily disable you via stun or trip or entangle or web.

Granted open areas are much more common. But if you really want to mess with/even the playing field with ranged characters give some enemies or champs increased movement speed. Nothing else is really needed.

Other examples would be characters with no ability to cast an anti-magic missile spell. Ravenloft has convinced me of that folly and I see pretty much all my characters who can't cast it from this point forward putting at least 1 point into UMD.

Likewise quests where the enemy casts a lot of reflex save spells. Unless you have the ability to avoid or resist that damage it can get ugly quickly.

Enemies that do stacking stat damage can crush players that have limited ability to repair that damage or have a low stat to begin with.

Spellcaster blasters can crush in quests with multiple shrines and get crushed in quests with few shrines. Or worse quests where the enemies tend to be resistant or outright immune to their main damage or spell type.

[Whitering]

The jump from HE to EE is particularly strange, but I have been playing long enough to know that and depending on my character it's either a thing or it's not. The craziest thing is that for some classes, ranged casters mostly, R1-2 is easier than HE, while for melees mostly, it is way more difficult.

Overall, I feel like the game is in a great place difficulty wise offering a large range of difficulties all the way down to casual, and if you can't beat casual for a particular reason (like one hand or something), there is now Voice Attack, I forget which subforum I saw it in, but it looks like it works really well.

[valkrei]

I am surprised at the lack of spell resistance in the new level 29 items. Thanks to DDO as a melee I pretty much stay at 0 and almost always dance when I see light from Ottos.

In most cases the reason its difficult is because of gear and lack of TR'ing This is the one thing wrong about DDO is that to some degree the end game became the TR grind. This also makes the game unique and deep.

I do since I hate playing casters struggle a lot more than most casters will in the game though, most melee are not OP and need more love in the passes when they come around next time.