Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[Monkeytoe]

If you want better control of game difficulty:
Figure out a system of determining character CR (taking into account the effect of equiptment, charcter building skill, TR'ing and general character optimisation) and indexing it to monster CR. I don't know, might take a re-imagining of the whole concept of CR. The resulting tools might be worth the trouble.


Then take that index, re-spec elite quests of a givin level to meet the most improbably (but possible, and thereore inevitable... ) overpowered characters that can be created at that level. Do not scale for number of party members.

respec normal to meet the CR of whatever a fresh faced follower of the chargen's path might be. Do not scale for number of party members.

respec hard to meet the CR of whatever is halfway between a newb and a sociopathically overfocused ...I mean, the improbable (but inevetable) maximum CR character for that level. Do not scale for number of party members.

Make sure every quest, maybe even raids, has a casual setting. Scale that for number of party members.

Epic is a whole different animal, as far as I'm concerned, and not included in my discussion here.

Give lots of xp for elite and hard, to offset the losses people will have from dieing but completeing anyway (which many of you may not know, but is something peope actually used to do).

Lots if xp. To offset dieing and completing anyway. To offset running back from your bind point in the Restless Isles...

Now, if GROUPING is something you'd like to encourage.... I'd suggest (in addition to carefully typed out suggestions above) making grouping worth while in the loot table, for example:

1 person party: base -2
2 or 3 person party: base -1
4 person party: base
5 person party: base +1
6 person party: base +2

WAIT! you say... why link loot to party size but not link party size to difficulty? Because running with a party is its own difficulty setting, really, thats why.

[Lightlord389]

The only thing that I don’t like is the end game quests. I fell like these quests say they are CR-17-20 but to make it harder it fells like a lvl 18 quest is a lvl 23 quest. I fell like when you are starting the game, and only have a 28 point, maybe 32 point toon if you restarted after you became a VIP, these end game quests are impossible. The only way you can do well in them is to be a 34 or 36 point TR and have lvl 25 gear... the problem with this is that it is hard to get all of that stuff on your first toon. I find that you need a group of all TR players or epically geared players to beat any of the high level content. It is almost impossible for a group of 28 point toons to finish a lvl 17-20 quest, even if they are good solid builds, played well, and have a balanced party with a good healer, dps, tank, and caster.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

Now, if GROUPING is something you'd like to encourage.... I'd suggest ... making grouping worth while in the loot table, for example:

1 person party: base -2
2 or 3 person party: base -1
4 person party: base
5 person party: base +1
6 person party: base +2

...

/unsigned on this part.

Don't put soloists two levels behind where they're adventuring in the gear they accumulate. That would be a draconian penalty for soloing; it's also unnecessary, if you'd like to promote group play.

Provide gear "at level" for parties of all sizes. If you'd like to promote group play, figure out a non-punitive, non-exclusive way of promoting it.

[honkuimushi]

My feeling is that what people mean when they say quests are too hard is different from what people meant when they said not to add an easy button. The easy button complaints were mostly from around EU's launch and had to do with things like reducing the effectiveness and duration of debuffs and adding things like beholder and mummy immunity items in the store. Being prepared to deal with things like these was seen as a mark of a good player. At lower levels, maybe not everone could afford to buy a stack of 99 Remove Curse and Remove Blindness potions, but you could buy a few and keep the ones you looted. And when the ability to remove these debuffs through shrining was added, I think they were pretty balanced. But now I seldom bother to remove these debuffs because they're gone so quickly. It really trivialised some of the main attacks of certain mobs. The immunity items were in a way worse, because you could pay to pretty much make powerful mobs pushovers. In any case, it seemed to reward players for being unprepared or just lazy. And in more difficult quests, partymembers that are either can be a hinderence to everyone. Things like reusable shrines on Normal and Casual difficulty were less controversial because they were pretty much unchanged on Hard and Elite. However, there were some concerns about someone who played only on Casual getting the same Rewards and someone who did all the quests on Elite and that players who only played on Elite or Casual would be unprepared when they started playing Raids and higher level content.

Quest difficulty is usually a little different and it has changed over time. A member of my old guild once said something that was very true about the old quests--"Turbine doesn't make hard quests, they make tricky quests." By that he meant that if you knew a few secrets about the quest, it was a breeze, and if you didn't, it was brutal. That can be seen in quests like Missing in Action where knowing to disable the traps before pulling the lever and spawning the first wave by getting near it before pulling it makes the quest easy. If you get someone who runs straight for the lever and pulls it, then you'll likely wipe between the dogs, kobolds, zombies, trog caster and traps. You also have things like staying off the dirt in Beyond the Grave and Coalescence Chamber or perhaps the most challenging, puzzles, like the maze in the Crucible. Those are really subjective. If someone knows it and people listen, it's easily done, though perhaps hard to learn. If you don't have someone who knows it or you have 1 or 2 players that don't listen, those quests are absolute nightmares.

Newer quests seem to have less tricks than before, but there are sometimes other roadblocks that were often times dependant on what classes you had along. Traps on Elite are a famous example, casters with Wall of Fire and a Divine with Deathward in Necro II are another. Casters with CC and Flesh to Stone in quests like Let Sleeping Dust Lie where there is a failure condition attached to killing certain hostiles is one more. So those quests are easy if your have X, brutal if you don't. These can be a problem if you have a hard time finding someone of that class or build.

But I think that the biggest problems with difficulty right now is with resources required and benchmarks. With TRs, you have characters that get more build points and have the gear they accumulated over or 2 lives. They also get the benefits of their past life feats. If certain content requires a certain DC for spells to be effective, Wizard with 3 Wizard past lives will have a much better chance than a 1st life Wizard. A Rogue with a Greensteel hp item made and a +2 tome banked has an easier time hitting the hp benchmark than a first life Rogue without tomes and just getting ready for the Shroud.

At lower levels, this is sometimes a factor, but at end game with epic items it becomes a lot more noticeable. Players who are good enough and play often enough, get item that can vastly boost their power, while those who aren't and don't, don't. This leads to some amount of player self segregation. But this means that if you try to challenge the top players, you pretty much make that content inaccesable to 95% of the game's population. If that content is enough of the game, then that can lead to frustration from the people who are locked out. But if it's rare, the top players will complain and maybe leave for another challeng. The fact that those players are more likely to post on the forums amplifies their voice as well.

Another problem is that if you make something like epics(especially as originally designed), where you have a small poulation of top players who are the main players of the content and items that are better than most of the items available in regular content, you end up increasing the power gap.

I don't know if I have a solution to this. It isn't just Turbine, it also alot to do with the social dynamics in this game, PUGs, guilds and elitism. One thing I would suggest is maybe awarding scores for certain difficult quests and raids. This could reward low numbers of deaths or completion times or the amount of the quest explored and optionals done. Maybe even smaller things like DPS achieved against a certain target or amount of healing done. The important thing about this is that the rewards wouldn't be xp or cash or powerful items, but cosmetic items-- Special armor kits or helmet skins. Changes in your character's appearance. It give the top players something to brag about and show off, but doesn't increase the gap.

The main issue I see with difficulty is the gap in power and knowledge between the top players and newer and casual players who haven't yet accumulated the gear and quest experience. Making lower difficulties work similarly to higher difficulties and act as a training space is pehaps one step. Changing the rewards for being elite is a second, but perhaps the biggest is encouraging mixing between the different population sets-- and that is probably the most difficult problem to solve.



P.S. One other issue that is especially acute for players like me is challenges based of connection speed. Living in Japan, it takes a while for the data to travel between the data center and my PC. Even things like the ski jump is really tough for me to do. If you have things that require a low latency connection in quests, It becomes very difficult for people living overseas or with a so-so connection to play that content.

[nibel]

Now, if GROUPING is something you'd like to encourage.... I'd suggest (in addition to carefully typed out suggestions above) making grouping worth while in the loot table, for example:

1 person party: base -2
2 or 3 person party: base -1
4 person party: base
5 person party: base +1
6 person party: base +2

WAIT! you say... why link loot to party size but not link party size to difficulty? Because running with a party is its own difficulty setting, really, thats why.


/unsigned on this part.

Don't put soloists two levels behind where they're adventuring in the gear they accumulate. That would be a draconian penalty for soloing; it's also unnecessary, if you'd like to promote group play.

Provide gear "at level" for parties of all sizes. If you'd like to promote group play, figure out a non-punitive, non-exclusive way of promoting it.

What hit the grouping harder is the dungeon scaling. Leave the casual setting to soloists (like, changing every multi-person mechanic the quest may have, like multiple levers), and remove dungeon scaling at all.

If experienced soloists want a challenge, they jump into normal or higher. But every single pugger would help you.

[Calebro]

If experienced soloists want a challenge, they jump into normal or higher. But every single pugger would help you.

As it is, experienced soloists never run Casual and rarely run Normal.
Soloists often run Normal or Hard. *Experienced* soloists often run Hard or Elite.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

What hit the grouping harder is the dungeon scaling. Leave the casual setting to soloists (like, changing every multi-person mechanic the quest may have, like multiple levers), and remove dungeon scaling at all.

If experienced soloists want a challenge, they jump into normal or higher. But every single pugger would help you.

Most suggestions for promoting grouping seem to involve making life more difficult for soloists; this one at least has the attractive property of making some currently inaccessible content more readily accessible. If dungeon scaling went away, though, there is still a punitive / exclusionary effect; eliminating dungeon scaling would annoy and drive away some players. And, "we don't offer dungeon scaling anymore!" wouldn't be a very effective marketing message, so new players wouldn't join to replace those who left.

On another note, be careful what you wish for, for this issue. People who would prefer to solo aren't necessarily going to be the best teammates, for various reasons, especially if they feel forced or herded into teaming.

I'd favor a (somewhat) higher percentage drop rate for attractive in-game rewards for larger groups (guild reknown is an obvious candidate, here, but also some kinds of gear). This would be non-punitive and it doesn't involve any blanket exclusion to missions or in-game items.

Use carrots, not sticks, to promote grouping.

[Calebro]

Most suggestions for promoting grouping seem to involve making life more difficult for soloists; this one at least has the attractive property of making some currently inaccessible content more readily accessible. If dungeon scaling went away, though, there is still a punitive / exclusionary effect; eliminating dungeon scaling would annoy and drive away some players. And, "we don't offer dungeon scaling anymore!" wouldn't be a very effective marketing message, so new players wouldn't join to replace those who left.

Dungeon scaling hasn't always existed. It used to actually *mean* something to solo a quest at level on elite. Now, with scaling, that's not even an accomplishment any longer.... it's the norm.

Dungeon scaling is horrible for this game. This is an MMORPG. Dungeon scaling removes the MM from that title. Why should we want to group when doing so actually makes the game harder? And not just harder in an "oh no, now I have to deal with n00bs" kind of way, but harder in an actual real tangible and verifiable degree of difficulty.
So it isn't about making life harder for the soloists, it's about the fact that scaling creates a situation diametrically opposed to the core concept of the game.
Dungeon scaling actually dissuades people from grouping. This is an MMO that dissuades people from grouping. Think about that for a moment, and then reevaluate your "effective marketing message" comment again.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Dungeon scaling hasn't always existed. It used to actually *mean* something to solo a quest at level on elite. Now, with scaling, that's not even an accomplishment any longer.... it's the norm.
Soloing on elite is probably the norm among some players. We have no way of knowing whether that's normal for the larger player population.

On that note, we have multiple posts in this thread pointing out how making progress is getting difficult at level 12, how teams of casual players can't do higher level content at all, and other such posts. It's far more likely that the "silent majority" are more casual in their approach to the game, and more modest in their in-game wealth and knowledge, than is true for those who are routinely soloing on elite.

In short, efforts to pin the blame for teaming issues on players routinely soloing on elite don't seem to be supported by the evidence, when it's most likely a small minority who are doing it.

Edit: To address your edited-in comments, it isn't good if soloing is routinely preferable to teaming; still, if some content is easier to solo than to do in a team, then that's not necessarily a bad thing.

It's an implementation issue if dungeon scaling has been set up to make teaming routinely less attractive than soloing. Fix the underlying issue, instead of throwing out dungeon scalling.

[Calebro]

It's an implementation issue if dungeon scaling has been set up to make teaming routinely less attractive than soloing. Fix the underlying issue, instead of throwing out dungeon scalling.

You're absolutely correct that it's an implementation issue. The issue is that it was ever implemented to begin with.
There are different difficulty levels to choose from for a reason. That's all the scaling that should be needed. Heck, they even added a Casual setting just in case Normal was too hard for you for some unknown reason.
If you want the dungeon scaled down, you run it on a lesser difficulty. There's your scaling. The fact that they added scaling to it beyond that is where the implementation issue comes into play.
Dungeon scaling should not exist independently of and designated by quest difficulty selection. It should be one or the other, but certainly not both. That's where the implementation fails, and that's why this game dissuades grouping.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

You're absolutely correct that it's an implementation issue. The issue is that it was ever implemented to begin with.
There are different difficulty levels to choose from for a reason. That's all the scaling that should be needed. Heck, they even added a Casual setting just in case Normal was too hard for you for some unknown reason.
If you want the dungeon scaled down, you run it on a lesser difficulty. There's your scaling. The fact that they added scaling to it beyond that is where the implementation issue comes into play.
Dungeon scaling should not exist independently of and designated by quest difficulty selection. It should be one or the other, but certainly not both. That's where the implementation fails, and that's why this game dissuades grouping.

Variety in difficulty settings adds a lot to the replay value of the game, for soloists. Taking that away would be both punitive and unnecessary.

Your key argument is, implicitly, that there's no way you can have both multiple difficulty settings and dungeon scaling, without favoring soloing over teaming. That's a pretty bold assertion, and one you didn't provide any evidence to support.

[Calebro]

Variety in difficulty settings adds a lot to the replay value of the game, for soloists. Taking that away would be both punitive and unnecessary.

Your key argument is, implicitly, that there's no way you can have both multiple difficulty settings and dungeon scaling, without favoring soloing over teaming. That's a pretty bold assertion, and one you didn't provide any evidence to support.

And your argument is that removing Dungeon Scaling would penalize soloists in an MMO, which is fairly asinine to put it bluntly. They would still be able to solo just fine. That's what Normal is for. That's what Hard is for if you're decent. That's what Elite is for if you're talented. That's what Casual is for if you're not. Once again, there's your scaling.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

And your argument is that removing Dungeon Scaling would penalize soloists in an MMO, which is fairly asinine to put it bluntly. They would still be able to solo just fine. That's what Normal is for. That's what Hard is for if you're decent. That's what Elite is for if you're talented. That's what Casual is for if you're not. Once again, there's your scaling.
When your response to "where's your evidence" is to use terms like "asinine" and "in an MMO", you'll generate more heat than light.

I'm still waiting for your arguments for why it's impossible to have various difficulty settings and dungeon scaling together, without favoring soloing over teaming.

[Calebro]

When your response to "where's your evidence" is to use terms like "asinine" and "in an MMO", you'll generate more heat than light.

I'm still waiting for your arguments for why it's impossible to have various difficulty settings and dungeon scaling together, without favoring soloing over teaming.

I don't need to provide evidence. The game provides all the evidence you could ever want. The fact that the two systems together creates a situation that does indeed favor soloing over grouping isn't an opinion, it's a fact. And it's verifiable. I don't have to provide any evidence of this fact. Log in and play the game. There's your evidence.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Dungeon scaling hasn't always existed. It used to actually *mean* something to solo a quest at level on elite. Now, with scaling, that's not even an accomplishment any longer.... it's the norm.

Dungeon scaling is horrible for this game. This is an MMORPG. Dungeon scaling removes the MM from that title. Why should we want to group when doing so actually makes the game harder? And not just harder in an "oh no, now I have to deal with n00bs" kind of way, but harder in an actual real tangible and verifiable degree of difficulty.
So it isn't about making life harder for the soloists, it's about the fact that scaling creates a situation diametrically opposed to the core concept of the game.
Dungeon scaling actually dissuades people from grouping. This is an MMO that dissuades people from grouping. Think about that for a moment, and then reevaluate your "effective marketing message" comment again.

There are some people who are drawn to soloing as their default play style. Their reasons probably vary, from simple preference to the need to stop mid quest to deal with real life.

On the other hand, some people prefer to run in groups, but the group experiences they have from time to time make soloing look pretty appealing.

I was just in a VoD hard run where people didn't even bother to bring guild curse pots, and couldn't figure out why they were dying. The FvS healing the tank ran out of spell points by intermission and started downing pots. I was throwing party heals, to those that bothered to stand in a group like I requested before we started. The players standing by themselves didn't bother to self heal. The party leader died very early on, didn't take rezzes and essentially was just dungeon scaling.

The assessment of one party member? "The bats killed us!" No, sorry. An awe inspiring amount of stupidity killed us. My part of that stupidity was not announcing the wipe at intermission and recalling.

I will probably do a few solo runs before I jump into another group.

That scenario is at least understandable (for the most part). We all had to learn to play the game at some point. What isn't understandable is the amount of noxious behavior that goes on in this game

1) People throwing up LFMs that say "loot X is mine if it drops"
2) Noobs throwing up LFMs that say "filtering" or similiar phrases because they think it makes them look uber. When I see one of those, I just skip on to the next one.
3) People who just engage in noxious behavior in the quest. Most people who have played the game for a while have a list of "special" friends.

When you pull up the LFM panel and start crossing off a lot of entries just because of the behavioral issues involved, that's not a dungeon scaling issue. That's an issue with too many of the people who play this game.

People play this game for fun, and when soloing looks like more fun that running in a group, people will solo. I'd much rather solo and get my butt kicked, than run in a group spending the entire time thinking "I wish this was over so I could finish out and drop group."

[Calebro]

There are some people who are drawn to soloing as their default play style. Their reasons probably vary, from simple preference to the need to stop mid quest to deal with real life.

<snip>

People play this game for fun, and when soloing looks like more fun that running in a group, people will solo. I'd much rather solo and get my butt kicked, than run in a group spending the entire time thinking "I wish this was over so I could finish out and drop group."

I fail to see what any of that has to do with the issue that we're discussing.
What are you trying to say there?

[jkm]

Variety in difficulty settings adds a lot to the replay value of the game, for soloists. Taking that away would be both punitive and unnecessary.

Your key argument is, implicitly, that there's no way you can have both multiple difficulty settings and dungeon scaling, without favoring soloing over teaming. That's a pretty bold assertion, and one you didn't provide any evidence to support.

I think the reason that Cal isn't giving you evidence is that its a complicated weave of dependencies.

Dependency 1 -> Certain classes are easier to solo than others. Typically these are ones with crowd control and self-healing capability

Dependency 2 -> The other classes are dependent upon the easier to solo classes (IE melees dependent on divines etc)

Dependency 3 -> By making a dungeon easier with a smaller group, you are actually providing a disincentive for soloable classes to add other players. Because these character types are the cornerstone of a traditional group, you lower the total number of groups you can form.

I'll give an example, on our last TR the guy running the cleric lost interest at level 16. Our group up until that point had been 3 barbarians and 1 cleric. We ended up having to use hirelings the rest of the way to 20. This was because we weren't willing to wait around for clerics. To offset the fact that we had a hireling, we typically kept the group size to 4 or 5 to lower incoming damage slightly.

[Aashrym]

Dungeon scaling and difficulty settings cover the same basic need in the game. They are redundant or at the very least create a large overlap in what they accomplish.

That fact that it is harder to run a full group on the same difficulty than it would be to solo it means not only is it redundant, the scaling pushes things to far on one side of the spectrum.

[GermanicusMaximus]

And your argument is that removing Dungeon Scaling would penalize soloists in an MMO, which is fairly asinine to put it bluntly.



I fail to see what any of that has to do with the issue that we're discussing.
What are you trying to say there?

I think I'm trying to say that some people in this game have difficulty interacting with others in an appropriate manner. Your assistance is most appreciated.

[Calebro]

I think I'm trying to say that some people in this game have difficulty interacting with others in an appropriate manner. Your assistance is most appreciated.

So you give a long winded post that doesn't contribute anything to the discussion at hand, and when asked to clarify it your reply is in implication that *I'm* the troll here? Your reply is the troll.
I called his argument asinine and I explained my reasoning. I didn't call him asinine. There's a difference.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Dungeon scaling and difficulty settings cover the same basic need in the game. They are redundant or at the very least create a large overlap in what they accomplish.

That fact that it is harder to run a full group on the same difficulty than it would be to solo it means not only is it redundant, the scaling pushes things to far on one side of the spectrum.

1. Different difficulty settings allow for a significantly different gaming experience, for the same mission, as mobs (and traps) have will different characteristics.
2. Dungeon scaling for team size allows teams of various different numbers of players to have a roughly equivalent level of challenge, for any given level of difficulty selected -- at least, the level of difficulty across different team sizes will generally be more equal, when scaling is implemented moderately well.

These are not the same things.

It is not possible to remove either dungeon scaling or difficulty level and still give players the same level of flexibility to choose the kind of gaming experience they prefer. This would also apply to teaming situations, incidentally, so consider carefully before arguing that dungeon scaling and difficulty settings are "redundant", and that one or the other should be removed from the game.

Dungeon scaling means that a team leader can put up a LFM and specify a difficulty setting in advance, then let team size settle wherever it settles, and go adventuring. The team leader can pre-specify the difficulty, and the dungeon will adjust to team size, rather than putting a team leader in the position of trying to make a judgment about the appropriate difficulty, based on team composition. Also, if you're thinking of joining a team, knowing the anticipated level of difficulty in advance can be helpful (at least for more casual players), as a player may feel they're ready for normal, but not for elite.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I think the reason that Cal isn't giving you evidence is that its a complicated weave of dependencies.

Dependency 1 -> Certain classes are easier to solo than others. Typically these are ones with crowd control and self-healing capability

Dependency 2 -> The other classes are dependent upon the easier to solo classes (IE melees dependent on divines etc)

Dependency 3 -> By making a dungeon easier with a smaller group, you are actually providing a disincentive for soloable classes to add other players. Because these character types are the cornerstone of a traditional group, you lower the total number of groups you can form.

I'll give an example, on our last TR the guy running the cleric lost interest at level 16. Our group up until that point had been 3 barbarians and 1 cleric. We ended up having to use hirelings the rest of the way to 20. This was because we weren't willing to wait around for clerics. To offset the fact that we had a hireling, we typically kept the group size to 4 or 5 to lower incoming damage slightly.
You're establishing a key part of the reason for why there is a problem.

But, this doesn't come anywhere close to establishing that there is no solution other than to abolish dungeon scaling.

[Cyr]

Since we are talking Dungeon Scaling...

Difficulty settings without dungeon scaling provide a known difficulty factor which only decreases as you add people to the party. With dungeon scaling the incentive for grouping is strongest with the worst/newest players and weakest with the best/experienced players.

This provides another one of the upside down incentive/dis-incentive curves involving dungeon scaling as it decreases the quality of pick up groups (which are vital to new players understanding of the game and likelyhood of staying with the game) which of course is the opposite of what you want a new player to experience.

It also turns out that because of dungeon scalings design that their is an even stronger dis-incentive for experienced groups to accept new players. Most times this extra player actually is worse then picking up no one at all. So even when more experienced players group they have a stronger disincentive from grouping with new players then normal.

[ArcaneMelee]

Dungeon scaling and difficulty settings cover the same basic need in the game. They are redundant or at the very least create a large overlap in what they accomplish.

That fact that it is harder to run a full group on the same difficulty than it would be to solo it means not only is it redundant, the scaling pushes things to far on one side of the spectrum.

1. Different difficulty settings allow for a significantly different gaming experience, for the same mission, as mobs (and traps) have will different characteristics.
2. Dungeon scaling for team size allows teams of various different numbers of players to have a roughly equivalent level of challenge, for any given level of difficulty selected -- at least, the level of difficulty across different team sizes will generally be more equal, when scaling is implemented moderately well.

These are not the same things.
...

I agree with Aashrym. You're right, they're not the same things. That doesn't refute the opinion that they cover the same need, nor that they are redundant.

Difficulty Settings adjust the difficulty of the quest. So does Dungeon Scaling. It's my opinion that Dungeon Scaling does a poor job of it, as I've never once experienced Quest "A" on normal the same way solo that I do in a full group.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Since we are talking Dungeon Scaling...

Difficulty settings without dungeon scaling provide a known difficulty factor which only decreases as you add people to the party. With dungeon scaling the incentive for grouping is strongest with the worst/newest players and weakest with the best/experienced players.

This provides another one of the upside down incentive/dis-incentive curves involving dungeon scaling as it decreases the quality of pick up groups (which are vital to new players understanding of the game and likelyhood of staying with the game) which of course is the opposite of what you want a new player to experience.

It also turns out that because of dungeon scalings design that their is an even stronger dis-incentive for experienced groups to accept new players. Most times this extra player actually is worse then picking up no one at all. So even when more experienced players group they have a stronger disincentive from grouping with new players then normal.
To the extent this is true, and it makes good sense that this would be true, dungeon scaling can be effective at promoting grouping when it's not strongly sensitive to the number of players in a team (ie: not zero, but not a strong effect). That would mean a player doesn't need to be very good to be a "net contributor", on balance, even when they're relatively new to the game.

When setting a scaling value for each extra player, there are plenty of choices that could be below the current scaling value, while still above zero.

Edit: I don't know if that's regarded as a problem, but lowering the scaling value would predictably lead to teams of experienced players more frequently blowing through just about any content at top speed.

[rkreutz]

Turbine will never be able to 'fix' dungeon scaling in the way, that it actually NOT encourages to rather play solo than in a grp. EVEN IF they would get it done at some point, the moment they add new stuff (i mean effects or pre's that do not yet exist), it will be broken again.

If u cant get something right nor fix it, get rid of it. And im am one of those that profit of dungeon scaling alot, cos it enables me to 'easily' solo (with hire) elite stuff (when there are no earth/air ellies).

[Aashrym]

1. Different difficulty settings allow for a significantly different gaming experience, for the same mission, as mobs (and traps) have will different characteristics.
2. Dungeon scaling for team size allows teams of various different numbers of players to have a roughly equivalent level of challenge, for any given level of difficulty selected -- at least, the level of difficulty across different team sizes will generally be more equal, when scaling is implemented moderately well.

These are not the same things.

It is not possible to remove either dungeon scaling or difficulty level and still give players the same level of flexibility to choose the kind of gaming experience they prefer. This would also apply to teaming situations, incidentally, so consider carefully before arguing that dungeon scaling and difficulty settings are "redundant", and that one or the other should be removed from the game.

Dungeon scaling means that a team leader can put up a LFM and specify a difficulty setting in advance, then let team size settle wherever it settles, and go adventuring. The team leader can pre-specify the difficulty, and the dungeon will adjust to team size, rather than putting a team leader in the position of trying to make a judgment about the appropriate difficulty, based on team composition. Also, if you're thinking of joining a team, knowing the anticipated level of difficulty in advance can be helpful (at least for more casual players), as a player may feel they're ready for normal, but not for elite.

It should be easier to complete a quest with more players than with less regardless of he difficulty level and right now that is not necessarily the case. Having multiple options for soloing would still exist without dungeon scaling. They would just be more difficult than they are now and should still be possible to complete with appropriate skill and gear.

Right now dungeon scaling provides incentive not to group and can provide incentive no to add new players to groups. Either way both systems make the quest easier, hence the redundant / overlap comment.

Reducing dungeon scaling might be an alternative to removing it as well. There is no need to make large change if it is possible to change in smaller increments to measure how successful the changes are.

[morticianjohn]

I agree that dungeon scaling and difficulty settings are redundant.

Casual should be solo friendly
Normal can be solo friendly
Hard should be beneficial to group
Elite should be extremely challenging to solo

I wouldn't propose removing dungeon scaling if it would make the quest unplayable for soloists or small groups but especially for hard/elite difficulties there should be incentive for grouping.


edit:// kind of a subject change. I know this has already been discussed but I've been working on quite a few different toons. I've had experience with all classes what has really frustrated me is on my ranger life for one toon how impossible it seems to get xp at a decent clip. Just leveled 2 (2nd life) TR's. The one I started with first and had a huge head start was my ranger who is still lvl 17. My PM leveled 2x as fast and is already capped again. It is very frustrating to get on my ranger hoping that I see someone running quests for xp seeing how difficult (and time consuming) it is to solo on this toon.

I was thinking about pally for the 3rd life but seeing how much more XP I'll need to get back to 20 I think I'll go with an easier life next. Pally, barb, fighter, monk, rogue are going to have to wait for now as I want it easy next life.

[Cyr]

I agree that dungeon scaling and difficulty settings are redundant.

Casual should be solo friendly
Normal can be solo friendly
Hard should be beneficial to group
Elite should be extremely challenging to solo

I wouldn't propose removing dungeon scaling if it would make the quest unplayable for soloists or small groups but especially for hard/elite difficulties there should be incentive for grouping.

Another non-trivial issue with dungeon scaling is the large jump in difficulty when it no longer applies leads to feelings of frustration and rage quittting...also known as the original desert epics effect on new players.

Basically players are just not used to mobs being able to hit their uber 55 AC or do enough damage in one fight to require lots of healing during it. Dungeon scaling distorts people's views of their builds in very damaging ways when they hit situations where it no longer applies it is like hitting a wall.

As such I think it is far better to just kill the mechanic entirely. Even a brand new player can run korthos quests on casual.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

A scaling function that looks like the left hand side of an inverted "U", in which the scaling value of the next teammate joining falls as team size increases, would seem to help offset the added difficulties of coordinating as a team gets larger.

This would lead to the biggest increase in mission difficulty when moving from solo to two players (but still below 1), the second biggest increase when moving from two to three players, and so on, so that the sixth slot can safely be given to just about anybody, with less risk that they'll hurt the team.

This sets up team leaders with an incentive to pick their second and third teammates with some measure of care, and to be willing to take just about anybody as their last team member. That would probably speed up team formation, as the exact characteristics of whomever fills that last team slot become less important. Newer players will have an easier time finding that last team spot, even if they might have trouble getting the second or third team slot offered.

[Riggs]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Have not read all 27 pages yet, and given the vacation of the OP, decided to wait before looking at it, a couple quick points.

Low levels used to be way harder. Elite Kobold Warriors in Waterworks could wipe a party, sometimes on normal they could really mess things up for weaker players. This is just one example, Gwylans boss rooms also were no joke on elite.

Then they game became tuned differently. Low levels have become stupid easy. High levels are tuned to pretty much require multiple TR with all epic gear to be effective.

And when I mean stupid easy - I really mean stupid. There is a massive amount of players now that get to high levels not realizing how bad they are because the low levels are so bloody easy now any moderately well geared character with some pots can solo their way up through elite through to around level 15ish before really having to break a sweat.

Boat buffs are awesome - but they should not be required for high level content, and also make low level content even more trivial and stupidly easy.

A comment made not long ago in another thread about how often people die was that Korthos has the most deaths - well yeah a completely brand new player with no gear and no skill and no knowledge of the game is going to die a lot - and korthos is a pain in the A%$ to run - Misery's Peak is f-ing long and irritating. Doing it on a non-str character with no pots is really a Misery to do. And who ever thought that - like Prey on the Hunter - spending 30 minutes running down 3000 long corridors that you have to be CONSTANTLY JUMPING to avoid getting CONSTANTLY caught on the terrain was a good idea? It. Really. Is. Not.

That aside - the game really should get a bit more difficult again as you get past level 4 at least. The difference between then and now was...well less players for one which I guess is the overriding factor...but when you saw a level 16 character, generally you knew they would be reasonably skilled just in having gotten to the level cap because a lot of the content required an actual build and some skill.

Now most content does not - and it shows in all the low skilled, poorly built characters that can be seen running around - and who complain about not getting into raids because they cant understand how people can reject them even though they got all the way up to level 18 now didnt they?

Other - Amrath is like 5-10 levels more difficult than quests one level lower. Yet the XP is not different?

-The Lord of Blades raid is like 6k base xp - huh? Why are ANY level 20 quests, and especially raids - such terrible xp for the level? There are like 50 level 8-12 quests that give MORE xp than level 18-20 quests AND raids - how in any world of thinking is this considered balanced? (And no I am not asking to go and nurf more low level quest xp).

-Kensai is a really boring Pre to play considering what everyone else has. A 'dps' Pre that not only doesnt come close to a barb, but might as well not exist compared to a Frenzied Bezerker is just a waste really. A +3 multiplier to crits on top of a 70+ str, vs +6 damage and seeker 6 bonus...so one crits for +36 damage with a greataxe, the other crits for + THREE HUNDRED damage, and 6d6 viscous completely beats +4 damage from weapon specialization. Yeah that is balanced.

-Too many stacking sources of everything now. You should not require 20-30 more str, or 40 points more of ac to go from level 19 content to level 20 content. Or an eardweller, + epic spell boosters + 6 past lives to land spells or do as least good damage.

-I crafted a Trap the Soul hp item just before starting to run challenges - only to learn that high level monsters in challenges are immune to even more stuff than on epics it seems - I want my ingredients back. And what this game needs was more blanket immunities?

-AC and epics - I am sure it has been raised 20 times somewhere in the thread, and 100 times more on the forums - but that is because it is a really stupid issue. As I said - the difference between what works on level 19 content and level 20 content should be different yes - but not 40 points different. Grazing hits on a 13 AND needing apparently a 100 ac to avoid hits is completely absurd.

And despite what a lot of people seem to think about pajama wearing types - yes armor should give dr - but speed always adds to ac - which is why people stopped wearing plate armor once weapon technology made it less effective - because getting out of the way was better than standing in the way and only stopping part of the damage - an arrow/bullet in the chest still kills you even if it doesnt go ALL the way through.

Turbine is so frantically worried about high ac builds making 'content trivial', that ac has been nurfed repeatedly - like every other mod/update. I have old builds lying around that spend months grinding out gear and hitting what was good ac at level 16 - 50+ all the way up to 75 buffed up in one case - that I do not bother playing anymore - because they did less damage than the non-ac builds, and their ac doesnt really matter now anyway - so without a TR and completely new set of gear and a new build basically - they are only good for mid level content now - or going on raids where other people do more of the work - which is not a way to plan a build.

AC needs to matter - an 80 ac should be enough to stop almost anything - AND there should have been less sources of stacking AC - so it would not be as easy to get. And a 50 ac ALSO matters in a lot of content where it doesnt anymore. The fact that a cleric in +5 DT full plate and a raid shield of some type might as well be naked in anything over level 16 is again - absurd. If armor gave dr that would be something.

But saying that 45-50 ac is great in low level content, normal level 14-16 content - maybe, but utterly useless in higher level content is a problem with the game - a big problem, that causes all sorts of related balance issues and power creep issues and so on.

If a 35 fort save is better than a 20 fort save, if a to hit of 40 is better than a to hit of 30, if 500 hit points is better than 400 hit points, a higher AC should matter more than a lower AC also. And currently except for extremely high numbers - it does not.

-Khopesh and the Sos should have never been added to the game - the rule breaking extra crit damage has thrown the entire game balance out of whack since day 1 - and there are 100 different game issues around that fact alone. I heard a rumor that crits are changing somehow in the next mod. Maybe something is coming to help - but the simple fact is crit damage matters WAY too much in DDO.

While most of the players would scream bloody murder if Sos and Khopesh was reduced to their non-exploit x2 crit forms - it really would be good for the game to have OTHER weapons actually matter too. The khopesh was a longsword that gave a +4 bonus on trip attempts I believe, and whoever thought a greatsword that; does damage like a greataxe, crits like a rapier, and when made epic has TWICE the to hit bonus and damage, clearly did not think the situation through. The damage has been done for 5 years now, but it should be, and couple be - undone.

Things that add damage should add base damage, and stop making crits the massively overpowered thing they are now - like FB getting 700 damage with a Epic SOS - a fighter with a greataxe might get 200-max 300 damage all fully buffed and geared and songed up - so the fact that stacking a totally unbalanced single best weapon in the game with a totally unbalanced extra crit damage class is just plain stupid and has led to raid bosses with hundreds of thousands of hp and epic monsters with thousands of hp and casters now getting huge damage to compensate etc etc etc etc etc etc.

The problem is clear, fix it, deal with the massive outcry for a month, and rebalanced the game based on more realistic numbers and weapons and crits that are not so absurdidly overpowered as to be cartoonish.

The old Dieties and Demigods Thor was one of the toughest gods - he had 400 hp and an AC that would be the equivalent of like...35 today. While the amount of buffs and enhancements make those numbers laughable now - the fact is that was still based on a d20 system and a level 20 fighter with a +5 weapon - and while everything else has changed we still have level 20 melee types with mostly +5 weapons now.

The problem is that D&D 3.5 started adding in all sorts of crazy stacking effects, because I guess all the new kids wanted to see big shiny numbers, and suddenly you had power creep.

Now you can have a to hit/ac/str/whatever with; Enhancement, Competence, Insight, Sacred, Profane, Alchemical, Feat based, and various untyped bonus items that lead to numbers that essentially break a d20 system.

What we really need is less stacking types of bonuses, but bonuses that can get higher than +5 say. A level 8 weapon is +5. There is no real reason we should not have +10 weapons and armor in the game (which when a +10 shield is added would go a long way to address complaints about pajama twf's vs S&B builds). But we should not have +10 weapons AND 80 str characters AND 5 other types of to hit and damage and ac bonuses on top of that.

Anyway...so much for my quick post. Hope it actually gets read.

[nibel]

About scaling and difficulty: The reason many people think its outragerous to suggest someone to run casual is because everyone sees casual as something no "real" player should be doing. Except in very specific cases (Prey on the Hunter).

The difficulty settings lost their meaning. If you want to solo, is around the quest level, and have no idea about how the quest plays, Casual should be the perfect difficulty for you. If you have a party and is on the same conditions, Normal is good enough. Hard and Elite should be reserved to groups that know the quest. If someone is uber enough to solo Hard or Elite, good for him. That do not mean the game should tune down, so everyone can solo Elite.

And when you run Amrath with mobs hitting you for ~10 damage on normal solo, and ~30 damage on normal with a full party, you understand why everyone say that soloing amrath is "easy". It is. If you can self-heal and kill the mobs.

Maybe even add the option that casual runs never decay on quest xp (Optional XP decays as normal). Since most quests have 50% base normal XP on casual, there is still few reasons to farm it on a capable character/player. But this helps new players.

[Vormaerin]

The problem is that D&D 3.5 started adding in all sorts of crazy stacking effects, because I guess all the new kids wanted to see big shiny numbers, and suddenly you had power creep.


No, the problem is that that this is a computer game, not a table top game. A table top game was often 4-6 hours a week, maybe twice that if you were really hard core? That amount of time in an MMO is considered extremely casual.

Table top D&D tends to either be an open ended campaign, where advancement is pretty slow and you can take years to reach lvl 20 or it tends to be the "adventure path" scheme, where you get to lvl 20 comparatively quickly, but then you "finish" and start a new one with new characters.

Neither of those models work for a CRPG, though Turbine has tried with the TR scheme. Players want to get to lvl 20 and keep playing and improving your character.

Fact is, most of that "lvl 20" content is really lvl 21-25. And would be using "epic" rules in pen and paper. So, yeah, there is a big difference in tabletop, too.

Btw, the D&DG stats were a joke even in the late 80s, much less compared to the kinds of stats that such creatures have in 3rd edition.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

About scaling and difficulty: The reason many people think its outragerous to suggest someone to run casual is because everyone sees casual as something no "real" player should be doing. Except in very specific cases (Prey on the Hunter).

The difficulty settings lost their meaning. If you want to solo, is around the quest level, and have no idea about how the quest plays, Casual should be the perfect difficulty for you. If you have a party and is on the same conditions, Normal is good enough. Hard and Elite should be reserved to groups that know the quest. If someone is uber enough to solo Hard or Elite, good for him. That do not mean the game should tune down, so everyone can solo Elite.

And when you run Amrath with mobs hitting you for ~10 damage on normal solo, and ~30 damage on normal with a full party, you understand why everyone say that soloing amrath is "easy". It is. If you can self-heal and kill the mobs.

Maybe even add the option that casual runs never decay on quest xp (Optional XP decays as normal). Since most quests have 50% base normal XP on casual, there is still few reasons to farm it on a capable character/player. But this helps new players.

/unsigned on this.

This is punitive and pointless, in addition to being based on bad assumptions about why people do or don't do things, and about the general state of the game. Problems with XP progression and favor accumulation are a start at thinking through why this is an unhelpful suggestion.

Make teaming more attractive without reducing the ability of players to solo. Then you have a non-divisive plan that actually helps.

[nibel]

/unsigned on this.

This is punitive and pointless, in addition to being based on bad assumptions about why people do or don't do things, and about the general state of the game. Problems with XP progression and favor accumulation are a start at thinking through why this is an unhelpful suggestion.

Make teaming more attractive without reducing the ability of players to solo. Then you have a non-divisive plan that actually helps.

Why bad assumptions? That's exactly what DDO say every difficulty level is: Casual for soloists, normal for parties, hard for experient soloists or parties wanting a challenge, and elite for experienced parties wanting a challenge. By DDO's definition, Elite is not supposed to be soloable at level.

[hewimeddel]

I wrote a really long posting, but i seems to have been eaten by the forum-software.
But I feel like I have to write again, because all i see on this topic are "VIP-Postings" without any postings from casual gamers like me.

So here is my 2 cents in short:

"Casual" and "Normal" should be designed for newcomers like me, who just want to have a good time for 30 or 60 Minutes once or twice a week. My Paladin is now at level 13 and the difficulty is more or less right till now, I hope this will be untill level 20 when i will stop playing this game after completing the available quest-chains that don't involve raids or other "forced-grouping".
Right now I have to revert to "casual" more than in the early levels, but thats okay for me, cause every game should get gradually harder. (I can't say anything about quests above level 12, because i made it to 13 today.)

The Players that have run most quests more than 2 or 3 times should never be allowed to talk about "Casual" and "Normal" difficulty! This settings are not designed for these gamers and they do have a completely different approach to a game than me and most casual gamers.
I think these players have lost the right perspective to judge about "casual" or "normal", because any player that has run a quest just once before already has meta-knowledge which makes it easier next time, even with a completely new charakter without any transfered gear or platin. This is what "Hard", "Elite" and "Epic" settings should be for, but please don't destroy the game for me by changing the "normal" or "casual" settings to fit the needs of those "repeaters".

I like this game very much, because i can play most of the content without grinding and farming or even grouping. Don't alter the "normal" or "casual" settings in any way that changes this.

bye
hewi

[voodoogroves]

stuff
good points; mostly agree with just about everything



-Khopesh and the Sos should have never been added to the game - the rule breaking extra crit damage has thrown the entire game balance out of whack since day 1 - and there are 100 different game issues around that fact alone. I heard a rumor that crits are changing somehow in the next mod. Maybe something is coming to help - but the simple fact is crit damage matters WAY too much in DDO.
That's changing though (the importance of crit damage) and that's a good thing. I'd still rather see some weapon types getting their circumstance bonuses to tactical maneuvers (trip, etc.) and for those to be un-nerfed.

I'm fine with them being "the best". Something will be, has to be. Those are hardly breaking the game though.


While most of the players would scream bloody murder if Sos and Khopesh was reduced to their non-exploit x2 crit forms - it really would be good for the game to have OTHER weapons actually matter too. The khopesh was a longsword that gave a +4 bonus on trip attempts I believe, and whoever thought a greatsword that; does damage like a greataxe, crits like a rapier, and when made epic has TWICE the to hit bonus and damage, clearly did not think the situation through. The damage has been done for 5 years now, but it should be, and couple be - undone.


The SoS is one weapon - a rare and named quantity. The Khopesh is an entire class. I think it's entirely possible to approach both differently, possibly with the addition of some other best-in-class named weapons to compete w/ the SoS, etc.


The old Dieties and Demigods Thor was one of the toughest gods - he had 400 hp and an AC that would be the equivalent of like...35 today. While the amount of buffs and enhancements make those numbers laughable now - the fact is that was still based on a d20 system and a level 20 fighter with a +5 weapon - and while everything else has changed we still have level 20 melee types with mostly +5 weapons now.

The problem is that D&D 3.5 started adding in all sorts of crazy stacking effects, because I guess all the new kids wanted to see big shiny numbers, and suddenly you had power creep.

Your comparison is a bit off ... previous editions used a varying scale - the big deal in 3.x is that the scale became linear and (in theory) constantly progressing. Instead of to-hit tables in the middle of the DMG, we had a straight 1-20 scale and for things to matter, they need to be kinda sorta somewhere in that range. The numbers people can hit in DDO are nothing compared to what you can hit in optimized 3.5 PNP, so pen and paper players will kill 1e Thor much faster than DDO players ever could.


Now you can have a to hit/ac/str/whatever with; Enhancement, Competence, Insight, Sacred, Profane, Alchemical, Feat based, and various untyped bonus items that lead to numbers that essentially break a d20 system.

What we really need is less stacking types of bonuses, but bonuses that can get higher than +5 say. A level 8 weapon is +5. There is no real reason we should not have +10 weapons and armor in the game (which when a +10 shield is added would go a long way to address complaints about pajama twf's vs S&B builds). But we should not have +10 weapons AND 80 str characters AND 5 other types of to hit and damage and ac bonuses on top of that.

Anyway...so much for my quick post. Hope it actually gets read.

I think there's more than one way to skin that cat - but I'd rather do it with Turbine using their DM-control to put in selective items, etc. in small areas to bring things in line so we're still ultimately playing 3e (your shield example). Too much vanilla and you get what 4e looks like - which isn't the worst game in the world but it is a completely different feel.

[slimkj]

I think it's entirely possible to approach both differently, possibly with the addition of some other best-in-class named weapons to compete w/ the SoS, etc.
I'd love to see comparative attack rate boosts for other weapons (like 1.5x for a dagger, for example) but can see how that would just present a whole new set of balance issues.

Still, I can dream about a dagger wielding assassin that is both thematically pleasing to me and effective in game too, eh? :)

[Silverleafeon]

Aside from the fact that not everyone plays in a time zone with a lot of people, dungeon scaling is more than solo vs party play.

IMHO Dungeon scaling is more complicated than mere number of party members.

Dungeon scaling takes into account how powerful each party member is.

If a Favored Soul joins a group, the scaling will increase more than if a cleric hirling joins a group.

If an Artificer or a Wizard joins a group, the scaling will increase more than if a fighter joins a group.

This is an important factor to consider and helps balance classes in its own way.

[LucidLTS]

Most suggestions for promoting grouping seem to involve making life more difficult for soloists<snip>If dungeon scaling went away, though, there is still a punitive / exclusionary effect; eliminating dungeon scaling would annoy and drive away some players. And, "we don't offer dungeon scaling anymore!" wouldn't be a very effective marketing message, so new players wouldn't join to replace those who left.

Very true! And it's even worse than it seems - it would obviously drive away dedicated soloists, but it would also drive away the people who like or need to solo sometimes but who group at other times. Because people with a limited play time don't want to be invested in two games simultaneously (one game to meet their solo needs and a different one to meet their grouping needs) many would just switch to a game the offers both conveniently. It would be easy to end up with even fewer groups if punitive measures were adopted to discourage soloing.



Use carrots, not sticks, to promote grouping.

Because sticks drive people to other games, not to your unfilled LFMs.

There is no advantage in beating players into groups, if grouping isn't its own reward then it isn't worth saving. Turbine makes just as much money selling adventure packs to solo players as to group players (per player, I don't know numbers of each) and probably sells more spirit cakes and gold seal hirelings. And it's money that would be lost if solo players were discouraged.

Keep soloing reasonable and rewarding because soloing players can group at any time but lost players are gone forever.

[ArcaneMelee]

...
IMHO Dungeon scaling is more complicated than mere number of party members.

Dungeon scaling takes into account how powerful each party member is.

If a Favored Soul joins a group, the scaling will increase more than if a cleric hirling joins a group.

If an Artificer or a Wizard joins a group, the scaling will increase more than if a fighter joins a group.

This is an important factor to consider and helps balance classes in its own way.

Do you honestly believe that DDO has a prayer at being able to correctly determine how powerful a character is? Please keep in mind the incredible diversity of classes/races/enhancements/gear/etc...

It's my opinion that it does not. If they really want to equalize class balance, I sure hope they do it by modifying the classes and not modifying the Dungeon Scaling.

[Calebro]

Aside from the fact that not everyone plays in a time zone with a lot of people, dungeon scaling is more than solo vs party play.

IMHO Dungeon scaling is more complicated than mere number of party members.

Dungeon scaling takes into account how powerful each party member is.

If a Favored Soul joins a group, the scaling will increase more than if a cleric hirling joins a group.

If an Artificer or a Wizard joins a group, the scaling will increase more than if a fighter joins a group.

This is an important factor to consider and helps balance classes in its own way.

Source please.

[mystafyi]

Source please.

posted ;)

Only Solo difficulty (such as from the solo-only quests like An Explosive Situation) and Raid areas (including the Subterrane) do not scale. Elite was considered to have no scaling but that decision was changed before it hit the live servers.



Keep in mind that I only have rough sets of data to work with, but I'll give my best approximations.


The following effect scaling:

Character level compared to quest - Being 3 levels under on normal may set the elemental damage to ~20% scaling while being 5 levels over on normal may set the elemental damage to ~40% scaling.
Class composition - In the higher levels being a full fledged Barbarian of equal level to a quest may put you around ~25% scaling while a full fledged Sorcerer of equal level would be closer to ~32%. A 1/2 Barbarian 1/2 Sorcerer multiclass would be ~28.5% scaling.
Player, Hireling, or Gold-seal Hireling - Players count for full. Hirelings count as 1/4th a player. Gold-seal hirelings count as nothing (or a very small amount).
Difficulty Setting - A full fledged cleric that is 5 or more levels over the quest would have scaling be - 20% on casual (half of normal), 41% on normal, 54% on hard, 71% on elite.
Amount of players - On normal, add up between the players in the group. For instance, an equal level Barbarian (~25%), Sorcerer (~33%), and hireling Cleric (~7.75%) should net around ~65.75% scaling. Scaling should stop at 100%, but for some reason due to rounding up in various places can exceed that.


Class scaling, from the ones who have the least scaling to those with the most scaling (at level 20):

Barbarian
Rogue
Fighter
Ranger
Bard
Paladin
Monk
Cleric
Favored Soul
Wizard
Sorcerer

[Vormaerin]

I don't need to provide evidence. The game provides all the evidence you could ever want. The fact that the two systems together creates a situation that does indeed favor soloing over grouping isn't an opinion, it's a fact. And it's verifiable. I don't have to provide any evidence of this fact. Log in and play the game. There's your evidence.

True. But what you haven't provided evidence for is whether its actually better for the game to go back to the 'bad old days' of "Friends don't let friends play solo". The video was hilarious, but many of those guys who died stopped playing the game.

Every time this comes up, people pop out the "omg, this massively multiplayer". But nothing about massive or multiplayer actually requires you go play in a group, especially a group with strangers. It has been shown time and time again, in game after game, that parties of 1-3 are the norm in the player base. Lots of solo, lots of duo, lots of a couple buddies. The people who join groups of strangers are the minority. A large minority, but still a minority.

DDO was designed around 6 players and suffered for it. LotRO had the same problem with its instances, but they decided to introduce 3 man instances as a partial solution. LotRO's skirmishes are good example, too. They created 1, 3, 6, & 12 man versions of each instance. And soon found that they had to put in a 2 man scale, because their data mining showed that was a big chunk of the overall player base.

Besides, the whole "choose your own difficulty" scheme in DDO was a lie anyway. You didn't really have a choice about running the quests on elite. You only had a choice about what level you were. You couldn't get those favor rewards without doing the quests on elite in many cases.

[Calebro]

Every time this comes up, people pop out the "omg, this massively multiplayer". But nothing about massive or multiplayer actually requires you go play in a group, especially a group with strangers.

I never said that it was required that you play in a group. But as this is a massively multiplayer online game, you should not be penalized with a harder quest because you chose to group up. The more people you have, the easier it should be. This is a social game.
The combination of quest difficulty and scaling for party size actually creates a situation where it is in your best interest to play an MMO, but not group with others. The combination dissuades grouping in an MMO.
Balancing things around the solo player should be a bonus. It should not dominate the game as it currently does.

[gloopygloop]

I never said that it was required that you play in a group. But as this is a massively multiplayer online game, you should not be penalized with a harder quest because you chose to group up. The more people you have, the easier it should be.

You aren't penalized with a harder quest because you chose to group up.

Aside from a VERY few quests (Weapons Shipment is the big one that jumps to mind), most quests are much easier when you group with people who are moderately competant.

If you are moderately competant and you group with people who are complete train wrecks, then you will have a harder time getting a completion. As long as everyone in the group is moderately competant, though, you will end up with a faster and easier completion in almost every quest when you have a slightly diverse group of 6 characters instead of just one character by him or herself.

Some parts of the quest ramp up a bit on Normal and Hard (not enough scaling to make a difference on Elite), but they certainly don't make the quest 6 times as hard to make up for the fact that you now have 6 times as many people working to complete the quest.

[Calebro]

You aren't penalized with a harder quest because you chose to group up.

If you are moderately competant and you group with people who are complete train wrecks, then you will have a harder time getting a completion. As long as everyone in the group is moderately competant, though, you will end up with a faster and easier completion in almost every quest when you have a slightly diverse group of 6 characters instead of just one character by him or herself.

You had to create a stipulation in order for your argument to be valid.
This is an MMO. Grabbing five n00bs who don't have a clue should make the quest easier, not harder. When you have to have "everyone in the group" (your words, not mine) as a competent player, then you ruin pugging because you have no way of knowing who you'll get.
That's exactly why this game favors short man groups and soloists at the moment. And that's a horrid way for an MMO to function. And that's because of the combination of dungeon scaling and quest difficulty selection.
The less people you have, the better off you are.... unless you happen to know those other people can pull their weight and be worth their scaling.
That's ridiculous.
Dungeon scaling is too powerful. I'd prefer that it be dome away with completely, but at the very least it needs to be toned down so that it affects things less.

[Silverleafeon]

posted ;)

Thank you :)

[gloopygloop]

You had to create a stipulation in order for your argument to be valid.
This is an MMO. Grabbing five n00bs who don't have a clue should make the quest easier, not harder.

If one complete noob grabs 5 more complete noobs, they're still going to have an easier time completing the quest than if they did it alone.

If dungeon scaling didn't exist at all, then 1 moderately competant player who tried to drag 5 noobs along on the quest would STILL have a harder time completing the quest than if he did it solo because that's the nature of noobs.



When you have to have "everyone in the group" (your words, not mine) as a competent player, then you ruin pugging because you have no way of knowing who you'll get.

You don't have to have everyone in the group as moderately competent players. It just makes things easier when you do. I never said that having moderately competent players was required. I only said that adding players who aren't complete imbiciles (i.e. moderately competant) will make the quest easier and not harder.



That's exactly why this game favors short man groups and soloists at the moment.

And it still would even if dungeon scaling didn't exist. Because the biggest reason why people go with short man groups today is NOT because of dungeon scaling. It's because incompetent morons can be annoying to deal with and they actively hinder your progress in the quest even without factoring in any dungeon scaling. Add in the fact that they also fart around after the group fills instead of actually getting their ass into the quest and you have a recipe for short man groups.

That's human nature. That has nothing to do with dungeon scaling.

[Calebro]

If one complete noob grabs 5 more complete noobs, they're still going to have an easier time completing the quest than if they did it alone.

If dungeon scaling didn't exist at all, then 1 moderately competant player who tried to drag 5 noobs along on the quest would STILL have a harder time completing the quest than if he did it solo because that's the nature of noobs.


That's exactly why this game favors short man groups and soloists at the moment.

And it still would even if dungeon scaling didn't exist. Because the biggest reason why people go with short man groups today is NOT because of dungeon scaling. It's because incompetent morons can be annoying to deal with and they actively hinder your progress in the quest even without factoring in any dungeon scaling. Add in the fact that they also fart around after the group fills instead of actually getting their ass into the quest and you have a recipe for short man groups.

That's human nature. That has nothing to do with dungeon scaling.

False and false.
If dungeon scaling didn't exist, bringing along 5 n00bs would make the quest easier.
As it is, if those 5 n00bs are in the quest with you, but are dead, you have to fight mobs that are scaled for a 6 person party. Without dungeon scaling, if those 5 n00bs are in the quest with you, but are dead, you'd be fighting the same mobs that you would have fought if you were solo. So any help that those 5 n00bs brought to the table while alive would have made the quest easier.

[gloopygloop]

Dungeon scaling is too powerful. I'd prefer that it be dome away with completely, but at the very least it needs to be toned down so that it affects things less.


By the way, does everyone here know that if dungeon scaling were reduced or eliminated, that quests in general would be harder and not easier?

I hope everyone knows that.

[gloopygloop]

False and false.
If dungeon scaling didn't exist, bringing along 5 n00bs would make the quest easier.

There's very little scaling on Elite.

There is no scaling at all in raids.

I've shortmanned both Shroud and HoX on numerous occasions.

Bringing extra noobs along does NOT make either of those runs easier. Bringing extra noobs along in quests on Elite does NOT make it easier.

I do not believe you are lying because lying implies that you actually believe that what you are saying is incorrect. The fact that you believe what you're typing doesn't make you any less incorrect, however.

[Calebro]

By the way, does everyone here know that if dungeon scaling were reduced or eliminated, that quests in general would be harder and not easier?

I hope everyone knows that.

.... for a solo player, yes. For a full group. Nope.
As it stands, it is easier to solo on Elite than it is to run Hard with a full group of puggers.
Go and check it for yourself. With a full group, mobs do more damage on Hard than they do on Elite when you're solo.
You can't possibly tell me that this makes sense to you.
And that's the perfect example of why dungeon scaling is screwed up. It's also the perfect example of why it is easier to solo or short man than it is to run with a full group.

I understand that they wanted to make the game more solo friendly, but they went too far, and now instead of being solo friendly the game is solo preferred.

[sirgog]

.... for a solo player, yes. For a full group. Nope.
As it stands, it is easier to solo on Elite than it is to run Hard with a full group of puggers.
Go and check it for yourself. With a full group, mobs do more damage on Hard than they do on Elite when you're solo.
You can't possibly tell me that this makes sense to you.
And that's the perfect example of why dungeon scaling is screwed up. It's also the perfect example of why it is easier to solo or short man than it is to run with a full group.

I understand that they wanted to make the game more solo friendly, but they went too far, and now instead of being solo friendly the game is solo preferred.

This.

I found soloing Enter the Kobold ELITE to be easier than full-grouping Normal with PUGgers. And that's not the awful player PUGgers either, but the 'ungeared player that may not know quests well but does sensible things' type of PUGger.

Scaling is a good thing to have on the solo-friendly settings (Casual, Normal and Hard), but really needs to be removed entirely from Elite. I want to go back to being happy to invite those ungeared but sensible players into parties.

Scaling was very minimal on Elite but has dramatically increased recently. Traps that hit for 120 with 2 people hit for 200 with 4 (Chains of Flame elite), almost causing us to wipe after two new people made it out through the desert. Mobs that scratch you solo hit like trucks on 6-player.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

This.

I found soloing Enter the Kobold ELITE to be easier than full-grouping Normal with PUGgers. And that's not the awful player PUGgers either, but the 'ungeared player that may not know quests well but does sensible things' type of PUGger.

Scaling is a good thing to have on the solo-friendly settings (Casual, Normal and Hard), but really needs to be removed entirely from Elite. I want to go back to being happy to invite those ungeared but sensible players into parties.

Scaling was very minimal on Elite but has dramatically increased recently. Traps that hit for 120 with 2 people hit for 200 with 4 (Chains of Flame elite), almost causing us to wipe after two new people made it out through the desert. Mobs that scratch you solo hit like trucks on 6-player.
The person you're quoting is suggesting that scaling on hard is problematic. The poster before the last two posts pointed out that there is (already) almost no scaling for elite.

You're talking about elite. I'm not seeing how the previous two posts, particularly what you quoted, supports a case for eliminating what little scaling there is on elite.

On a related point, what you say may very well be true for you, but not true for most players, even the substantial majority of players -- meaning that it may be easier for *you* (relatively experienced, knowledgeable, and probably well stocked with in-game resources) to solo in particular conditions when that isn't necessarily true for most others.

[sirgog]

The person you're quoting is suggesting that scaling on hard is problematic. The poster before the last two posts pointed out that there is (already) almost no scaling for elite.

You're talking about elite. I'm not seeing how the previous two posts, particularly what you quoted, supports a case for eliminating what little scaling there is on elite.

On a related point, what you say may very well be true for you, but not true for most players, even the substantial majority of players -- meaning that it may be easier for *you* (relatively experienced, knowledgeable, and probably well stocked with in-game resources) to solo in particular conditions when that isn't necessarily true for most others.

Elite scales as much as Hard and has since U12.

I'm fine with Hard scaling a fair bit - Hard is the difficulty intended for 'experienced soloists'. But as-is, I don't think many people think 6-player Hard is even close to the difficulty of 1-player Hard. Solo is much easier.

[sweez]

Bringing extra noobs along does NOT make either of those runs easier. Bringing extra noobs along in quests on Elite does NOT make it easier.


This. If bringing extra random people makes quests that don't scale 'easier', how come I can solo eFathom or eStand on my wiz more quickly than most random pugs filled with sub-par players?

Bad players will find a way to mess stuff up whether scaling exists or not (even if there's no scaling they still "contribute" -10% xp in leveling content), and people will prefer short-manning to letting potentially bad players in their groups whether scaling exists or not.

When I solo on my toons that aren't really great for soloing, I don't solo because of scaling, I solo because I want those 10% xp, because I don't want to deal with people who can't read LFM texts.

[jkm]

This.

I found soloing Enter the Kobold ELITE to be easier than full-grouping Normal with PUGgers. And that's not the awful player PUGgers either, but the 'ungeared player that may not know quests well but does sensible things' type of PUGger.

Scaling is a good thing to have on the solo-friendly settings (Casual, Normal and Hard), but really needs to be removed entirely from Elite. I want to go back to being happy to invite those ungeared but sensible players into parties.

Scaling was very minimal on Elite but has dramatically increased recently. Traps that hit for 120 with 2 people hit for 200 with 4 (Chains of Flame elite), almost causing us to wipe after two new people made it out through the desert. Mobs that scratch you solo hit like trucks on 6-player.

I think a better example is hte crucible swim on elite. With 2 people its around 110 but with 6 its 275.

[Truga]

I think a better example is hte crucible swim on elite. With 2 people its around 110 but with 6 its 275.

That swim is quite brutal indeed.

[mystafyi]

Scaling is a good thing to have on the solo-friendly settings (Casual, Normal and Hard), but really needs to be removed entirely from Elite. I want to go back to being happy to invite those ungeared but sensible players into parties.

Why would turbine want to make it easier for many people to get elite favor, and thus more TP?

[Razcar]

Variety in difficulty settings adds a lot to the replay value of the game, for soloists. Taking that away would be both punitive and unnecessary.

Your key argument is, implicitly, that there's no way you can have both multiple difficulty settings and dungeon scaling, without favoring soloing over teaming. That's a pretty bold assertion, and one you didn't provide any evidence to support.
The misconception on the devs' part is that they think that more bodies = easier questing. When it often is the opposite. People short manned all the time before dungeon scaling.

But I think the problem has more to do with an enormous gap between different classes' self sufficiency, rather than Dungeon Scaling and quest difficulty. The developers believe that some aspects of the classes are much larger drawbacks than they really are. For example Spell Point pools. How the game works, with mobs tracking you across the map, and many mass damage AoE and AoE over time spell effects, there is never any problem to make your Spell Points last until the next shrine.

The developers seems to believe that limited Spell Point pools are a huge drawback and that it should somewhat equalize casters to melee, who can keep swinging without cost. While in fact that is an armchair construction, since the game doesn't play like that; melees get hurt since they are in close combat, casters don't since they are at a distance, and powerful mass spells will make your Spell Points last much longer than the developers seem to think.

If they could make melees as viable soloing as casters/divines are, we would have less of a problem with perceived quest difficulty. Almost all quests that are a cakewalk on a Sorc, can be quite much harder on a Rogue or a Fighter.

[Antheal]

All of the main developers need to log into the game and level a character from 1-20 before they do anything else.

[Sarisa]

All of the main developers need to log into the game and level a character from 1-20 before they do anything else.

Via pure PUG'ing. Without any twinking or admin-created equipment, besides what they earn and buy themselves.

[gloopygloop]

Elite scales as much as Hard and has since U12.

Now that's funny. I TR'd my Fighter a few days after the 20% XP bonus started and I've been mostly soloing quests on Hard and Elite (actually soloing - no pocket healers). I had thought I was just kicking ass and taking names because I finally had an outstanding AC (43 AC at level 6 without making serious sacrifices to DPS).

I never saw any mention of changes to scaling in the release notes.

[nibel]

I've shortmanned both Shroud and HoX on numerous occasions.

Bringing extra noobs along does NOT make either of those runs easier. Bringing extra noobs along in quests on Elite does NOT make it easier.

Raids are different from quests. The first difference is exactly that a raid group should work together. So, a clueless noob that try to solve things by himself will disrupt things and bring failure to everyone. Like someone breaking VoN pillars, or messing with Titan, or killing puppies, or bringing blades to the middle. There is a reason why DQ is the most soloable raid in the game.

Raids should have no Scaling, coordination, and comunication all the way. Sure, you should be capable to bring a few newbies that follow orders to learn it. But raids should not be a foremost completion just because.

Quests, on the other hand, should be a guaranteed completion on Casual solo. Maybe even on normal if no one in group do obvious stupid things. A full twinked level 4 newborn Veteran toon should not solo Waterworks elite right off the bat. Elite must have something that requires the player to get a group to have a better chance at completion. And this thing should not be "that trap/mob can one-shot me".

[Silverleafeon]

Give them credit.
They are smart.
Look at what the bravery bonus has done for the game.

[Hafeal]

All of the main developers need to log into the game and level a character from 1-20 before they do anything else.


Via pure PUG'ing. Without any twinking or admin-created equipment, besides what they earn and buy themselves.

I am fairly certain the devs have done that - the question is, when did they last do it and what class? Like players, they have their own personal biases for what they like to play and what they are good at.

[LucidLTS]

EnjoyTheJourney, you have reputation disabled but I'm going to try for a +1 anyway, your assessment is spang on and your supporting arguments are articulate and persuasive, thanks for taking the time.



Scaling is a good thing to have on the solo-friendly settings (Casual, Normal and Hard), but really needs to be removed entirely from Elite. I want to go back to being happy to invite those ungeared but sensible players into parties.

I strongly disagree. I'm one of those "ungeared but sensible" (well, hopefully sensible) players who would benefit from your invites, but as valuable as that invite would be, dungeon scaling on elite is much more valuable.

DDO is set up in such a way that you really need Elite favor (i.e. Silver Flame in Necro for marks of favor or Cannith for Artificer) so you can't just say it's OK to make it full group required and non-full group can do without.

Most of my Elite runs are with my wife in a duo, or with one of a few close friends who I know don't mind if we die a few times and take a long time to complete. It's not about shaving a little time off our run, it's about not having the quest end in a rage quit and I'm on some DNG list when we are too slow for the PUGger we brought with us.

We work really hard for our Elites, and we couldn't do it at all without dungeon scaling.

I agree that it adds insult to injury to have a highly skilled player suffer both an increased difficulty and the possible frustration of bad play when they invite random people into their group. I'd really like to see that solved, but removing dungeon scaling isn't the way.

I'm grateful to the pros who have taken me and players like me through quests, but if I have to choose between those invites and dungeon scaling, I'll pick dungeon scaling by a wide margin.

[Palantyr]

I’ve been playing the game on and off since it’s original retail launch. Perhaps I’m a bit different than the average player here but my enjoyment of the game doesn’t come so much from the challenge presented it more comes from the fantasy that plays out in my head about the character and watching/experiencing the character’s abilities/power grow over time. I’m not adverse to challenging content, when new content is released to live I’m among the first in my guild and circle of friends to get groups going into the new content, preferably with people who have not played it on lamannia as I don’t want the content spoiled. New content is where I want my challenging play to come from, assuming its level appropriate which at this point in the game probably means high level or epic setting. Even so I only enjoy puzzling out new content and refining tactics for so long (generally not a very long time at all either), to be blunt this is mindless entertainment to me and that is what I want it to be. A step up from television or movie; more interaction required to keep my hands busy, a bit a puzzling and strategy to keep the brain active, and some team based social interaction for the shared elation victories can inspire. This is something I’m looking to find relaxation and entertainment from after the day’s work is done, not something I regard in any way as an accomplishment or achievement. Put another way a video game is not something I expect to need a lot of time or effort dedicated to it.

That said I do think the difficulty curve is handled well in this game from 6 man group quests. Normal can be/was challenging when starting the game and elite can seem almost impossible for some quests. After some play time experience with the game character creation and combat system builds, better gear becomes available to the player generally at a nice pace, and quests/mobs become more familiar resulting in what was once hard becoming a little easier, exactly what I’d expect from a CRPG. Eventually I expect the top tier of difficulty (especially non-raid/non-cap content) to not be challenging at all for a particular character at least until new end game content becomes available. Its fun to get some challenge from the leveling content when new and inexperienced to the game, but when I’m playing a character that’s stacking TR lives past the 36pt build I am not, nor any of the people I’ve TR’d with, looking for challenge in this content. While I can’t speak for others motivations with TR, I am personally getting lost in the numbers on the character sheet and looking to eek out that little extra bit of performance at cap-level play not looking to be challenged on any difficulty setting and in my experience the people I’ve run (past 36pt build) TRs with are of similar mindset, usually are expectations are met and there’s a few things to do out there that will still provide some challenge if it’s starting to feel to methodical or grindy. During my play I have run into many players who TR’d because they missed content the first time around and because they couldn’t handle higher difficulties of some quests in their first of second life. That the group quests can accommodate both seems to me to indicate the difficulty levels for group play are designed well.

The raid difficulty changes have left me scratching my head a bit, it seems quite obvious you have retuned elite to the uber-geared played. Does that question even need to be asked? I have question the decision too as the LFM panel has never seemed to fully recover since the changes. I’m not the biggest fan of recycling content, but in the case of DQ and VoN it worked out pretty well. The new difficulties were fun and had loot changes that motivated people (and still do). They were made into viable, entertaining end game content mostly due to loot changes that provided improvements to capped characters. The new raids (chrono, lob, ma) were great additions too. They had motivating rewards, mechanics to master, resource usage that was high at first but can be whittled down with experience and practice and most importantly are fun to play, although chrono is definitely at the grindy stage for my peers (probably past actually) and LoB/MA is getting there too but that’s something which happens in MMOs. The changes to reaver/shroud/vod/hound/abbot/tod though, I just really don’t get. Personally I’ve had my fill of these raids for a long time now, most of the people I played with would only run them on newly made characters or maybe to grind out +3 tomes. I know there is a minority of forum posters who like to solo these or go for speed records, but I never heard anyone talking about how they wished these raids were more challenging when actually playing in groups online the only place I ever heard this talk was in the forums. In game almost all the people I grouped with just wanted an easy completion for these raids to move their list one step closer to 20, whatever the difficulty being ran was. New loot was add to them or at least upgrade/more loot, with the exception of tod, but it wasn’t anything I heard many people get excited about at all, which is needed to make it viable end-game content again. Those were 5 really old raids to the game now which have been run into the triple digits by a lot of long time players, adding more incoming damage or dragging the fights out longer for what amounts to the same old reward in most cases or new rewards that very few people got excited about just doesn’t make these raids more fun. You can tell that from the LFM panel offerings, there certainly isn’t a massive outcry to get 2 more large ingredients from your shroud run. Now the higher difficulty of these raids are generally just more tedious, completions aren’t really any harder than before (although some favored tactics were adjusted especially in case of shroud and abbot) for the uber-geared but they have been pushed a bit further out of reach newer, not so uber-geared, not so well recognized newer player. That is what makes me scratch my head a bit. You’ve taken them from being common to see up on the LFM panel at all difficulties in groups that would accept pretty much whoever, and those new players that got into the group would usually be pretty excited about it charging up the old I’ve-ran-these-into-the-ground players about the raid a bit more even, to raids that are more often put together in invitation passworded channels at the begging and prodding of one or two people who might have some niche use for new loot or want a better chance at a shard. Seems a curious business move to me.

[jkm]

The misconception on the devs' part is that they think that more bodies = easier questing. When it often is the opposite. People short manned all the time before dungeon scaling.

But I think the problem has more to do with an enormous gap between different classes' self sufficiency, rather than Dungeon Scaling and quest difficulty. The developers believe that some aspects of the classes are much larger drawbacks than they really are. For example Spell Point pools. How the game works, with mobs tracking you across the map, and many mass damage AoE and AoE over time spell effects, there is never any problem to make your Spell Points last until the next shrine.

The developers seems to believe that limited Spell Point pools are a huge drawback and that it should somewhat equalize casters to melee, who can keep swinging without cost. While in fact that is an armchair construction, since the game doesn't play like that; melees get hurt since they are in close combat, casters don't since they are at a distance, and powerful mass spells will make your Spell Points last much longer than the developers seem to think.

If they could make melees as viable soloing as casters/divines are, we would have less of a problem with perceived quest difficulty. Almost all quests that are a cakewalk on a Sorc, can be quite much harder on a Rogue or a Fighter.

A good example is Let Sleeping Dust Lie where being a melee takes tons of discipline and tactics and being an arcane is Tab Tab FoD (repeat 50 times). Note: The part I have a problem with is the 50 times. Adding a mechanic that limits the number of times a single spell can be cast would force arcanes/divines AND melees to play more careful (because Heal would also be a limited spell).

[Silverleafeon]

Limit the amount of times my healer can cast Heal?
She might never raid or do epics ever again...

[jkm]

Limit the amount of times my healer can cast Heal?
She might never raid or do epics ever again...

Really? Because I distinctly remember doing an elite dragon back in the day with 560 spell points on a cleric. The problem is that unlimited healing presents as many problems as unlimited wail of the banshee.

[gloopygloop]

A good example is Let Sleeping Dust Lie where being a melee takes tons of discipline and tactics and being an arcane is Tab Tab FoD (repeat 50 times). Note: The part I have a problem with is the 50 times. Adding a mechanic that limits the number of times a single spell can be cast would force arcanes/divines AND melees to play more careful (because Heal would also be a limited spell).

Recipe for a successful, stress free Sleeping Dust on Elite:

1) Clear the entire downstairs. Don't pick up the book. Just kill everything that you find.
2) Pick up the second book, kill the Ogre Mage and save the Queen
3) Slaughter anything else that you want dead
4) Kill the boss
5) Go back to pick up the first book and then kill the first Ogre Mage.

Now that we have BtA rocket boots even a Fighter or Barbarian can do this.

[jkm]

Recipe for a successful, stress free Sleeping Dust on Elite:

1) Clear the entire downstairs. Don't pick up the book. Just kill everything that you find.
2) Pick up the second book, kill the Ogre Mage and save the Queen
3) Slaughter anything else that you want dead
4) Kill the boss
5) Go back to pick up the first book and then kill the first Ogre Mage.

Now that we have BtA rocket boots even a Fighter or Barbarian can do this.

Skipping quest objectives is an exploit.

[gloopygloop]

Skipping quest objectives is an exploit.

You're not skipping any quest objectives. You're just doing them in a different order.

That's been known and spoken about for years now. If that's an exploit, then it's certainly news to me.

If you squint hard enough when you look at the rules for exploiting, then window farming is an exploit too. I don't think Turbine has a problem with either one of these things.

[Aashrym]

Recipe for a successful, stress free Sleeping Dust on Elite:

1) Clear the entire downstairs. Don't pick up the book. Just kill everything that you find.
2) Pick up the second book, kill the Ogre Mage and save the Queen
3) Slaughter anything else that you want dead
4) Kill the boss
5) Go back to pick up the first book and then kill the first Ogre Mage.

Now that we have BtA rocket boots even a Fighter or Barbarian can do this.

A minimum level 18 item in a level 16 quest doesn't say good things about balance and ease of the quest.

[gloopygloop]

A minimum level 18 item in a level 16 quest doesn't say good things about balance and ease of the quest.

Requiring a minimum level 18 item in a level 16 quest would be bad.

The fact that a minimum level 18 item makes a level 16 quest trivial even on Elite (which is then level 18) doesn't bother me too much.

[jkm]

You're not skipping any quest objectives. You're just doing them in a different order.

That's been known and spoken about for years now. If that's an exploit, then it's certainly news to me.

If you squint hard enough when you look at the rules for exploiting, then window farming is an exploit too. I don't think Turbine has a problem with either one of these things.

No, you are purposely skipping the fail condition flag so that you can't fail the quest. That is one of the big things that is considered an exploit. This doesn't even factor into the fact that you put this in a thread that a Dev WILL read and assign someone to fix this exploit (wasting more dev time).

[Aashrym]

Requiring a minimum level 18 item in a level 16 quest would be bad.

The fact that a minimum level 18 item makes a level 16 quest trivial even on Elite (which is then level 18) doesn't bother me too much.

Perhaps not, but the FoD and acid spells make it easier for casters before level 18 to complete and they don't need to wait for level 18 for propulsion boots. The issue with difficulty is that it is much easier for some classes than others, IMO.

It's hard to balance quest difficulty when there is a gap in classes.

The other part of that equation is the gear also creates a gap. A player who has not had a chance to get propulsion boots cannot do what you suggest without running a level 19 quest first in order to have the gear you listed for a level 16 quest. That is a cart before the horse scenario.

[Hafeal]

A minimum level 18 item in a level 16 quest doesn't say good things about balance and ease of the quest.


No, you are purposely skipping the fail condition flag so that you can't fail the quest. That is one of the big things that is considered an exploit. This doesn't even factor into the fact that you put this in a thread that a Dev WILL read and assign someone to fix this exploit (wasting more dev time).

You don't need the item for the tactic described.

I cannot believe this is an exploit. The tactic has been used on Khyber since the quest was released. It does not mean you cannot fail the quest - you still can. You just reduce your chances, significantly. 5 killed spiders (as I recall) isn't a lot, especially in a PUG.

[Postumus]

False and false.
If dungeon scaling didn't exist, bringing along 5 n00bs would make the quest easier.
As it is, if those 5 n00bs are in the quest with you, but are dead, you have to fight mobs that are scaled for a 6 person party. Without dungeon scaling, if those 5 n00bs are in the quest with you, but are dead, you'd be fighting the same mobs that you would have fought if you were solo. So any help that those 5 n00bs brought to the table while alive would have made the quest easier.

I think I agree with you. Bringing five extra bodies shouldn't make it harder for the party leader and I agree that it could discourage grouping since you get the same xps solo or with a group of six.

Along those lines, it might be a good idea to re-examine the Flawless Victory bonus. If a six-man group is harder due to dungeon scaling, shouldn't the Flawless Victory bonus be higher for a group than for a single player who is soloing?

The dungeon scaling doesn't improve loot drops either, does it? Should it? If running the dungeon with a full party is a more difficult challenge than soloing, shouldn't you get more xps and better loot for doing so?

[jkm]

You don't need the item for the tactic described.

I cannot believe this is an exploit. The tactic has been used on Khyber since the quest was released. It does not mean you cannot fail the quest - you still can. You just reduce your chances, significantly. 5 killed spiders (as I recall) isn't a lot, especially in a PUG.

Read his scenario again. There is NO possibility of failure because the kill 5 spiders doesn't come up until after the end bosses are killed and the only thing to kill is the first ogre mage. Heck he's already looted the end chests before he finishes the quest.

[Postumus]

Have not read all 27 pages yet, and given the vacation of the OP, decided to wait before looking at it, a couple quick points.

A couple? :) (That was a serious WOT). But I found some interesting nuggets in there (yes I'm procrastinating from working THAT much):




-Too many stacking sources of everything now. You should not require 20-30 more str, or 40 points more of ac to go from level 19 content to level 20 content. Or an eardweller, + epic spell boosters + 6 past lives to land spells or do as least good damage.


-AC needs to matter - an 80 ac should be enough to stop almost anything - AND there should have been less sources of stacking AC - so it would not be as easy to get. And a 50 ac ALSO matters in a lot of content where it doesnt anymore. The fact that a cleric in +5 DT full plate and a raid shield of some type might as well be naked in anything over level 16 is again - absurd. If armor gave dr that would be something.


-Khopesh and the Sos should have never been added to the game - the rule breaking extra crit damage has thrown the entire game balance out of whack since day 1 - and there are 100 different game issues around that fact alone. I heard a rumor that crits are changing somehow in the next mod. Maybe something is coming to help - but the simple fact is crit damage matters WAY too much in DDO.


- Things that add damage should add base damage, and stop making crits the massively overpowered thing they are now so the fact that stacking a totally unbalanced single best weapon in the game with a totally unbalanced extra crit damage class is just plain stupid and has led to raid bosses with hundreds of thousands of hp and epic monsters with thousands of hp and casters now getting huge damage to compensate etc etc etc etc etc etc.


-What we really need is less stacking types of bonuses, but bonuses that can get higher than +5 say. A level 8 weapon is +5. There is no real reason we should not have +10 weapons and armor in the game (which when a +10 shield is added would go a long way to address complaints about pajama twf's vs S&B builds). But we should not have +10 weapons AND 80 str characters AND 5 other types of to hit and damage and ac bonuses on top of that.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...
Along those lines, it might be a good idea to re-examine the Flawless Victory bonus. If a six-man group is harder due to dungeon scaling, shouldn't the Flawless Victory bonus be higher for a group than for a single player who is soloing?

The dungeon scaling doesn't improve loot drops either, does it? Should it? If running the dungeon with a full party is a more difficult challenge than soloing, shouldn't you get more xps and better loot for doing so?
Flawless completion is harder for a group, so the bonus should arguably be higher. Also, there should be several steps down from that higher flawless bonus, so for example 3 or 5% is lost for 1 death, rather than losing the entire bonus.

If you make the flawless bonus higher and that's all you do, then new players would end up being treated much worse than they are now, in some teams.

[Aashrym]

You don't need the item for the tactic described.

He was referring making the jump easy with rocket boot for fighters and barbarians. A ML 18 item from a 19th level quest to make a level 16 quest easier is a backwards approach and what I was specifically refuting. I would let a dev decide if being able to completely avoid the auto fail is an exploit or not.

[gloopygloop]

He was referring making the jump easy with rocket boot for fighters and barbarians. A ML 18 item from a 19th level quest to make a level 16 quest easier is a backwards approach and what I was specifically refuting. I would let a dev decide if being able to completely avoid the auto fail is an exploit or not.

I generally avoid the autofail that comes with having everyone in your party die too far away from a res shrine too. Is that also an exploit?

This has come up in game and on the forums repeatedly. This is not some great secret. It is not any more of an exploit than jumping from the ship mast or the Leaky tavern for purple coins or window farming.

If it is an exploit, then a dev can come in and say that it's an exploit and I'll stop doing it.

[Calebro]

If it is an exploit, then a dev can come in and say that it's an exploit and I'll stop doing it.

Except for the fact that you and I both know that they'll never do that. Fight Club.
If you really want confirmation that it's an exploit send a PM to a Dev explaining the exact details of how it's done. They'll answer your specific question in a PM.

[DrawingGuy]

I personally don't like the "buff hp and fort" as the difficulty increase solution. Essentially the game is made into a high DC caster game as they either need that monster CCed to give melees the 15 minutes it takes to norm hit the 1mil hp to 0 or for the caster just insta kill it. It only makes the quests tedious or completely marginalizes half the classes in the game... it does not raise the difficulty.

Instead I'd much rather see more traps, intelligently placed monster ambushes that are not there on easier difficulties, etc. In addition, mixes of high save/immunity monsters that are easy to melee along with those high hp and/or fort monsters would help encourage party mixes. And no, not high everything, since that once again just turns it back to tedium to kill. Make me think how to kill it easily, not have no choice but to tink it to death forever. IE the mirror trick on Medusa in "Eyes of Stone" is something I would like to see more of. Yes, it is true that after you figure all the tricks out the quest would be much easier, but isn't that how it should be?

Really, I think approaching difficulty increases in that manner not only would help balance class purpose and needs, but encourage parties as well. Make us NEED the party on higher difficulties rather than punish us for having one by making the same monsters more tedious to kill and the same traps hit harder.

Which comes to the other point of dungeon party scaling. Yes, I understand the concept that a party would make a quest easier (noob arguments aside). However I think it should be viewed that a party can handle a harder difficulty (ie hard/elite). There should be NO scaling for parties as Elite should NOT be soloable. Heck, casual should be the only soloable difficulty. Yes, people will complain about that, but if you want to solo, play on normal or casual. This is an MMO, and thus it should be expected that certain quests/difficulties require multiple people... otherwise go back to playing RPGs.

[gloopygloop]

If you really want confirmation that it's an exploit send a PM to a Dev explaining the exact details of how it's done.

Done as of 2 minutes ago. I don't expect a quick answer since I know they have a lot of actual exploits to deal with, but I look forward to the clarification.

[Vormaerin]

Instead I'd much rather see more traps, intelligently placed monster ambushes that are not there on easier difficulties, etc.

Except when they put in environmental hazards (like blades) that require something other than twinked characters to deal with, the weeping and gnashing of teeth is beyond absurd.

"If I wanted to play Mario, I'd buy that" "Where's the puzzle solver?" "Its too hard, add saves/less damage/whatever." Almost always in the name of "casual" players who don't exist because real "casual" players aren't running 12 mans and epics.

[Scraap]

Except when they put in environmental hazards (like blades) that require something other than twinked characters to deal with, the weeping and gnashing of teeth is beyond absurd.

"If I wanted to play Mario, I'd buy that" "Where's the puzzle solver?" "Its too hard, add saves/less damage/whatever." Almost always in the name of "casual" players who don't exist because real "casual" players aren't running 12 mans and epics.

I've actually started pondering at this point if the game wouldn't be better served by having enhancements, items and feats non-stacking in nature, simply to provide more breadth of approach, instead of the current pipelining which seems to call for all of the above. Heretical, I know.

[Hafeal]

Ah, my bad. A variation on what I have seen.


Read his scenario again. There is NO possibility of failure because the kill 5 spiders doesn't come up until after the end bosses are killed and the only thing to kill is the first ogre mage. Heck he's already looted the end chests before he finishes the quest.


He was referring making the jump easy with rocket boot for fighters and barbarians. A ML 18 item from a 19th level quest to make a level 16 quest easier is a backwards approach and what I was specifically refuting. I would let a dev decide if being able to completely avoid the auto fail is an exploit or not.

[morticianjohn]

Why would turbine want to make it easier for many people to get elite favor, and thus more TP?

You misunderstand those asking for a removal of dungeon scaling. We want to remove dungeon scaling for elite and keep the quest just as difficult as it currently is with 6 people regardless of the number of people that you have in the quest.

In otherwords soloing on elite will be the EXTREME challenge that it should have been all along in a group based game.

For those who think this would ruin thier experience of gathering elite favor solo or in a small group I doubt it. You will adjust and adapt. The bigger the game challenge the more rewarding it is to win.

[Scraap]

You misunderstand those asking for a removal of dungeon scaling. We want to remove dungeon scaling for elite and keep the quest just as difficult as it currently is with 6 people regardless of the number of people that you have in the quest.

In otherwords soloing on elite will be the EXTREME challenge that it should have been all along in a group based game.

For those who think this would ruin thier experience of gathering elite favor solo or in a small group I doubt it. You will adjust and adapt. The bigger the game challenge the more rewarding it is to win.

There's that of course. There's also the simple fact that if you can take 10 hits solo, or 5 in a group, it can throw off your assessment as far as what that particular character can handle. I'd much rather see mob-count scaling ala weapons shipment than damage scaling, personally.

[jkm]

There's that of course. There's also the simple fact that if you can take 10 hits solo, or 5 in a group, it can throw off your assessment as far as what that particular character can handle. I'd much rather see mob-count scaling ala weapons shipment than damage scaling, personally.

This mechanic won't work.

Lets take a common dungeon: Tanglefoot:Whisperdoom

With 1 member in the party, no Spider Princes spawn

With 2 members in the party, 1 Spider Prince spawns

With 3 members in the party, 1 Spider Prince spawns

With 4+ members in the party, 2 Spider Princes spawn

So given this, 1 is the optimal number since the spiders are the hardest mob in the entire dungeon. However, if you have a party of 2 and 1 person steps in and gets past the spider spawn point does it spawn when the second person steps in the dungeon?

[kafrielveddicus]

This mechanic won't work.

Lets take a common dungeon: Tanglefoot:Whisperdoom

With 1 member in the party, no Spider Princes spawn

With 2 members in the party, 1 Spider Prince spawns

With 3 members in the party, 1 Spider Prince spawns

With 4+ members in the party, 2 Spider Princes spawn

So given this, 1 is the optimal number since the spiders are the hardest mob in the entire dungeon. However, if you have a party of 2 and 1 person steps in and gets past the spider spawn point does it spawn when the second person steps in the dungeon?

I cant recall spider princes not spawning(except the first 3 or 4 chapters), although the spawns are different from the first chapter of the chain versus the last chapter of the chain!

[jkm]

I cant recall spider princes not spawning(except the first 3 or 4 chapters), although the spawns are different from the first chapter of the chain versus the last chapter of the chain!

My comment was in response to the suggestion that dungeon scaling affects quantity of mob spawns not quality.

[mystafyi]

We want to remove dungeon scaling for elite and keep the quest just as difficult as it currently is with 6 people regardless of the number of people that you have in the quest.

In otherwords soloing on elite will be the EXTREME challenge that it should have been all along in a group based game.

I did misunderstand. I like this idea

[nibel]

I'd favor a (somewhat) higher percentage drop rate for attractive in-game rewards for larger groups (guild reknown is an obvious candidate, here, but also some kinds of gear). This would be non-punitive and it doesn't involve any blanket exclusion to missions or in-game items.

Just found it while reading the topic, and I must say:

Increasing rewards on bigger groups without removing scaling at all just lead to people six-boxing free accounts. I know there is many people doing this to farm vale ingredients. This may not be realistic on raids (except DQ, this one is soloable), but quests with good endloot, like Mindsunder, may be prone to this.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Just found it while reading the topic, and I must say:

Increasing rewards on bigger groups without removing scaling at all just lead to people six-boxing free accounts. I know there is many people doing this to farm vale ingredients. This may not be realistic on raids (except DQ, this one is soloable), but quests with good endloot, like Mindsunder, may be prone to this.
You say this as if it would be a major problem. The vast majority of players probably don't do this, though, and making decisions about game difficulty based on the actions of what is probably a tiny fraction of the player population doesn't seem likely to turn out well.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

I'll bring this back to the OP. There are plenty of posts from uber-players in this thread. There are also a relatively small number from newer / more casual players posting in this thread. A significant percentage of uber-players are forthright about what they want; they want dungeon scaling eliminated entirely or eliminated for elite difficulty.

"It's a group game" gets repeatedly trotted out as a reason for why making soloing fun should be a lower priority. However, these kinds of suggestions imply a "zero-sum" approach to setting difficulty, and they answer the wrong question. The question is how can you make the game better for groups of all sizes, and not just for larger teams, at the expense of smaller teams (or soloists). And, on that note, multiple posts in this thread have pointed out that even on normal difficulty soloing can (already, under the current system) be very challenging for those who are less experienced.

On another point, at some level of experience, wealth, and skill, players will find that a random stranger being added to the team isn't likely to make missions easier. At some point on the experience / wealth / skill curve, soloing or working with close friends who are near the same level becomes the most efficient option, as well as providing insurance against some of the "low points" that can arise when teaming with strangers (teammates who are not only mistake-prone, but who don't listen, etc.) If the devs focus on catering to uber-players who are chasing the nigh impossible dream of turning teaming with random strangers into the "most efficient" option for anything other than raids, then they're probably going to screw things up for the other 99% of the playerbase who are not uber. Since it's the uber-players who are by far the most frequent posters on the forums, I don't envy the devs reading through this thread the challenge of figuring out how to set mission difficulty.

If you really want to create a game that's enjoyable for teams of all sizes, then keep dungeon scaling at all difficulty levels. Find ways to tweak the current system, instead of making a radical change that cuts soloists off from attaining a fair number of relatively attractive favor rewards and more generally narrows the range of ways in which they're likely to be able to enjoy the game. A few specific suggestions:

1. "Flawless" bonuses can be calculated "per player" instead of "per team", and be larger for larger teams; thus, one player doesn't cost the entire team 10% of their bonus by making a mistake (and get treated badly / squelched for it, sometimes), and more experienced players still have some incentive to help newer players learn how to avoid dying. The larger flawless bonus for larger teams helps to compensate for how much harder it is to avoid any deaths on a team. It also reduces the incentive of team leaders to set arbitrary limits for hit points for teammates, because less is at stake if a teammate turns out to be more fragile / less skillful than hoped. Average team size would be likely to increase, with this change.

2. The scaling value can go up at a decreasing rate, for each increment in team size, and be very low for the last (and perhaps second last) team slot, to give teams a stronger incentive to take a chance on whoever is willing to join for that last one or two team slots. That helps newer players secure a place on teams with more experienced players, so they can learn and get better. This would also increase average team size.

3. Experiment with different ways of scaling up mobs, including different mixtures of scaled up mob hit points, scaled up mob damage, and scaled up mob numbers -- be careful about this last one, though, as this favors teams loaded with AOE attacks, and hurts many melee characters.

4. Finally, provide more randomization in dungeons, and increase randomization as the difficulty level increases; the game becomes far easier when a player knows what's up ahead, so make that less of an issue. This change would also tilt incentives further in favor of teaming, for many missions, by getting uber-players who might otherwise level up by soloing on elite (which they can probably do for many missions while practically asleep, because they know what's ahead) to team up to take on the randomized challenges up ahead.

[ArcaneMelee]

...
On another point, at some level of experience, wealth, and skill, players will find that a random stranger being added to the team isn't likely to make missions easier. At some point on the experience / wealth / skill curve, soloing or working with close friends who are near the same level becomes the most efficient option, as well as providing insurance against some of the "low points" that can arise when teaming with strangers (teammates who are not only mistake-prone, but who don't listen, etc.) If the devs focus on catering to uber-players who are chasing the nigh impossible dream of turning teaming with random strangers into the "most efficient" option for anything other than raids, then they're probably going to screw things up for the other 99% of the playerbase who are not uber. Since it's the uber-players who are by far the most frequent posters on the forums, I don't envy the devs reading through this thread the challenge of figuring out how to set mission difficulty.
...

My perspective is that Dungeon Scaling hurts the newer/casual players more than the "uber experienced". When I roll up a low player (TR or on a new server), I have the advantage (from TR gear, account twinkage, rich uncles, or just plain quest knowledge) needed to over come the scaling when I run with strangers.

But a new player lacks all of these - all they see is that the mob that was hitting them for 2 points before the others entered is now hitting them for 6, or that the mobs they were easily hitting they are now missing, or the mobs that they were pwning with spells are now making every save.

If the experienced players with their perfect teamwork and 'leet gear solo stuff to avoid Dungeon Scaling, how are the newer people supposed to fare?

Dungeon Scaling was introduced before the Casual Setting - I think the Casual setting does a better job.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

My perspective is that Dungeon Scaling hurts the newer/casual players more than the "uber experienced". When I roll up a low player (TR or on a new server), I have the advantage (from TR gear, account twinkage, rich uncles, or just plain quest knowledge) needed to over come the scaling when I run with strangers.

But a new player lacks all of these - all they see is that the mob that was hitting them for 2 points before the others entered is now hitting them for 6, or that the mobs they were easily hitting they are now missing, or the mobs that they were pwning with spells are now making every save.

If the experienced players with their perfect teamwork and 'leet gear solo stuff to avoid Dungeon Scaling, how are the newer people supposed to fare?

Dungeon Scaling was introduced before the Casual Setting - I think the Casual setting does a better job.

The opposite is true; dungeon scaling makes soloing beyond casual easier, not harder, for everybody, and especially for newer, not-well-geared players.

[pHo3nix]

A team of 6 TR's with full guild buffs and top level weapons will shred a quest 6 new players would struggle with.
Make very quest at level (or even under level) a challenge for EVERY party that enters it.
If aprty has 30pt guild resists, scale elemental damage up. Not the full 30pt up but maybe half the difference.
If a group has a rogue, scale damage of traps up.
If group has twinked to the hilt why shouldn't the mobs be scaled up to match.

DDO needs to understand there is a huge gap between the haves and the have nots but need to cater for both groups. The 4 difficulty split just does not cut it.

If acquiring gears grants no benefit cause the game scales to match it, then what's the reason of acquiring new items? Why should i run 100+ evon6 for the eSoS when i can keep my uber +1 greatsword and take the same time to kill a mob?

The same applies to buffs: if mobs bypass buffs, what's the reason of buffing? Ship resists should just scale with the lvl of the toon grabbing them: 10 points till lvl 7, 20 points till lvl 11 and 30 points after lvl 11.

[danotmano1998]

If acquiring gears grants no benefit cause the game scales to match it, then what's the reason of acquiring new items? Why should i run 100+ evon6 for the eSoS when i can keep my uber +1 greatsword and take the same time to kill a mob?

The same applies to buffs: if mobs bypass buffs, what's the reason of buffing? Ship resists should just scale with the lvl of the toon grabbing them: 10 points till lvl 7, 20 points till lvl 11 and 30 points after lvl 11.

This, 100 times over. ^^

The point of getting the TR past lives and gear is to make things a little easier the next go around. IF things scale up to match it, then there is effectively no point to getting any of this stuff. I would rather just stick with a first life, +1 wielding guy. He'll do just as good as my completionist fully epic geared guy, and costs a lot less to play. Not to mention I wouldn't bother grinding for gear, because it wouldn't make things any better!
By scaling up to match these things, you effectively nullify the point of them.

NO THANKS.

[ArcaneMelee]

The opposite is true; dungeon scaling makes soloing beyond casual easier, not harder, for everybody, and especially for newer, not-well-geared players.

I wasn't talking about soloing, I was talking about grouping. Dungeon Scaling makes grouping harder for everyone, and especially for newer, not-well geared players.

Now if you want to argue that it's better for the game if everyone solos, that's a different topic.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I wasn't talking about soloing, I was talking about grouping. Dungeon Scaling makes grouping harder for everyone, and especially for newer, not-well geared players.

Now if you want to argue that it's better for the game if everyone solos, that's a different topic.
Dungeon scaling exists in many games that allow a multiplayer option, which means that most players (even casual players) are unlikely to be surprised when the game gets somehow harder, as the number of teammates increases. If they are surprised to see damage numbers rise, then a quick conversation with teammates about why incoming damage seems so high is likely to clear that up.

Eliminating dungeon scaling effectively means that all dungeons would be scaled for the maximum number of players; all team sizes below that would have more difficulty in-game--experience, skill, and player wealth kept equal--which is more of an issue than getting a feel for how dungeon scaling works.

[nibel]

The opposite is true; dungeon scaling makes soloing beyond casual easier, not harder, for everybody, and especially for newer, not-well-geared players.

As said, the game itself is buildt on the base that Hard is the highest any soloist can do. The game text for Elite do not say anything about "solo extreme challenge".

So, Casual should be made with solo/duo in mind (That should include changing quest mechanics, so the thing is soloable, like removing the light pads on the right corridor in Xorian Cipher), Normal for 4-man party of inexperienced players wanting completion or soloists wanting a challenge (Add scaling for solo, and cap scaling up to 4 people), Hard for 5-man party of inexperienced players wanting a challenge (Scaling is less noticiable, like the mobs is ~70% base strenght instead of actual ~25%), and Elite for full party of experienced or geared parties wanting a challenge (Experienced or geared wanting completion can run Hard without any problems, remove scaling at all).

The problem is not the difficult levels. Is everyone thinking that Elite is not a challenge, but "something to farm favor". And except for sos flagging, you seldom see anyone playing casual because "no one should run casual since normal is too easy".

[EnjoyTheJourney]

As said, the game itself is buildt on the base that Hard is the highest any soloist can do. The game text for Elite do not say anything about "solo extreme challenge".

So, Casual should be made with solo/duo in mind (That should include changing quest mechanics, so the thing is soloable, like removing the light pads on the right corridor in Xorian Cipher), Normal for 4-man party of inexperienced players wanting completion or soloists wanting a challenge (Add scaling for solo, and cap scaling up to 4 people), Hard for 5-man party of inexperienced players wanting a challenge (Scaling is less noticiable, like the mobs is ~70% base strenght instead of actual ~25%), and Elite for full party of experienced or geared parties wanting a challenge (Experienced or geared wanting completion can run Hard without any problems, remove scaling at all).

The problem is not the difficult levels. Is everyone thinking that Elite is not a challenge, but "something to farm favor". And except for sos flagging, you seldom see anyone playing casual because "no one should run casual since normal is too easy".
You lay out that descriptive language as if "this is the way it should be", but there's no particular reason for things to be the way you're describing. It's arbitrary. And, like many other things that are arbitrary, you start to see warts when you look even a little more closely at the implications.

One of the chief warts associated with this way of setting mission difficulty is that it amounts to saying "nerf soloing." But, there are games that manage to be both solo-friendly and team-friendly and there are no coherent arguments in this thread for why this game can't be, as well, or why it shouldn't be.

[rfachini]

On normal and casual most quests are not too frustrating. I don't like to fail on ANY quest, especially on casual.

The worst thing is when you have a PUG trying something on elite, and fail or have people leave partway through. The house P quest where you can't kill the mummies is a great example of this. Anytime you spend more than 20 min on a quest (and sometimes it well over an hour) and get almost nothing for it is frustrating. A possible solution would be to give a 25% XP consolation prize to any player who has been in a quest (active, taking damage, not piking or exploiting) over 60 min and then abandons it.

Raids are another story. Abbot and Lord of Blades are known for not being assured completions. It's fine to have quests that are that challenging, but the rewards should be much greater than easier quests.

[nibel]

You lay out that descriptive language as if "this is the way it should be", but there's no particular reason for things to be the way you're describing. It's arbitrary. And, like many other things that are arbitrary, you start to see warts when you look even a little more closely at the implications.

One of the chief warts associated with this way of setting mission difficulty is that it amounts to saying "nerf soloing." But, there are games that manage to be both solo-friendly and team-friendly and there are no coherent arguments in this thread for why this game can't be, as well, or why it shouldn't be.

Can you give examples? I really dont know any.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Can you give examples? I really dont know any.
Diablo 2
City of Heroes

Players having the option to team or solo--and to have a blast either way--is obviously a huge win for a game, and Torchlight 2 and Diablo 3 are clearly taking aim at this objective.

Edit: Instead of just listing games, a little of the thinking behind why I and many others found them both solo and team friendly might be in order.

Diablo 2 can be solo'd just fine, of course. It's not very "PUG-friendly" on open Battle Net as many multiplayer games because of the "going hostile" option, the way loot drops (first come, first serve), and the historically ubiquitous presence of hacks and exploits. But, "closed" games with friends (ie: with a password) can be a lot of fun -- speaking from plenty of experience at bringing characters from level 1 to "Guardian" through solo play, team play, or a mixture of both.

City of Heroes is more PUG-friendly for most content than Diablo 2 primarily because unilaterally going hostile isn't possible, the way drops are decided is less likely to promote anger at teammates, and various griefing mechanics are generally better controlled than on open Battle Net. However, you can solo (or team) from level 1 to 50 and have been able to do that for a very long time, on many different difficulty settings; I've solo'd to 50 and teamed to 50 multiple times, and both can be a lot of fun.

[nibel]

Diablo 2
City of Heroes

I'll concede the point because I never played CoH, and Diablo made me sleep on my keyboard. So, I'll take your word for it.

Anyway, my point is: I'm averse of the highest difficult setting in the game be soloable. Playing solo you can get all non-raid loot quite easily (many need TONS of repetition, but is acessible), and level up to 20 with only normal and wilderness zones (up to 400 slayer, plus explorers). Also, Raiding the Giant's Vault is the best place for any casual player to farm plat.

I see no reason to not build Elite raids to challenge the multi TR twinked players that want a challenge (actually, I would set all raids on elite to level 20. Chrono/TS/VoN/Titan/DQ included).

Elite quests do not require multi-TR to be finished, just to have some changes to not let the quest be simply brute-forced to the end. Like Elite Small Problem or Elite Demon's Den. Eg, Elite Xorian Cipher could be the only one that have 4 light pods (Casual and Normal have one pod that opens to puzzle, Hard have 2 pods so someone need to face the mobs on the big room, and Elite is like it is today). Elite Waterworks could have respawning kobolds, so Arlos dying could be a problem (obviously, Arlos would not be as fragile as he is today). Elite Faithful Departed and Sleeping Dust would have the failure conditions they have today (Casual-Hard they would be only optionals that give a lot of XP or loot). Timed quests could have a smaller or bigger timer to work ("defensive" quests like Baundry Shipment and Threnal East 3 would be longer on elite, "offensive" ones like New Invasion would be shorter). And so on.

The only reasons everyone wants to jump on elite completions are:

-Bravery Streak
-Silver Flame/Yugo favor for pots
-Coin Lords/House K favor for space
-Free TP

[Jahmin]

I find the overall difficulty of at level Casual, Normal, Hard & Elite settings pretty good and just about correct. I find Epic more tedious than challenging however…

If by find Normal too much like Hard you mean that there is not a noticeable increase in difficulty then yes.

I actually find difficult settings cluster by Module and Update: that is that quests released closer together (often as part of a single release or as parts of a chain) have similar difficult on similar settings which differ from those of other quests of the same level released previously or subsequently. Logically the rotation of level designers probably explains this, but I am not familiar with who is doing what quest and I do not believe it has been made public since Vale (Mod6). Nevertheless this would be something worth considering.

For challenge vs. success on normal I expect to not need resources/consumables in order to succeed, although those would make it easier, but it should require average teamwork and tactics to do so. For Hard, good teamwork and tactics should be able to succeed without needing consumables although resources maybe expended. Elite requires great teamwork and tactics while needing resource expenditure and potentially consumable usage. With Casual I expect to be able to succeed with all party members phoning in their performances drunk.
For this purpose resources refer to easily replaced items (scrolls, wands, rechargeable charges) whereas consumables are more difficult to replace (mnemonics, non-rechargeable charges).

Although I do not expect to fail when playing Normal, it is a possibility however remote. No chance of Normal failure would be incredibly boring and completely negate the necessity of Casual.

One of the problems (if not THE problem) is the scaling you introduced. It essentially invalidates (or at least overwrites) the difficulty setting: it is often far easier to solo Elite, than full man Normal… I frankly cannot think of a worse mechanic to introduce into a cooperative game than one that DISCOURAGES grouping.


Yes, it sucks to fail - even more so after spending 45+ minutes in the quest - but it happens, and when it happens because of player choice it is acceptable outcome. Even then, between re-entry and the DDO: Store even failure is not a certainty anymore. Not to mention there is an easier difficulty setting than Normal as well. It also is worth noting that DDO is decidedly NOT most MMOs, and doing something different should not be seen as bad. Rewarding player skill is something the game should strive for, not run from!


Yes, currently you are needlessly RE-balancing the game for the ultra-elite. Aside from the stupidity of targeting this extremely small subsection of your player base at the expense of the VAST remainder, the fact remains that changing old content takes time away from new content and bugs/fixes that do require changes.

Let us reference the Reaver. This was the capstone raid for the game’s fourth module and first anniversary. The level cap was raised to 14 with its release. It was over 4 YEARS old when it was selected to be balanced for an end game 6 levels further on. Not surprisingly if the goal was to challenge level 20s, this lvl14 Raid FAILS utterly. It is however significantly more challenging at level, being incredibly difficult on elite especially for the original cap of 14. Net result: everyone runs it at cap… great investment of development resources.

There exists a difficulty setting for challenging the uber-player: EPIC. Had development not waffled from the original statement of every release would include an Epic difficulty to oh we are going to avoid epics and then back to here are some more Epic raids to challenge you this might have actually been useful. Ultimately rather than finishing Epic Gianthold you ****ed away time and effort to change the base quest needlessly and did not even accomplish your goal.

The bigger issue with changing old content is that the people that are uber that you apparently want to challenge have ALREADY FARMED IT DOWN. The only people that are punished by these changes are the newer players that have not gotten everything they need (let alone all they want) to move on.


J-

[sirgog]

I find the overall difficulty of at level Casual, Normal, Hard & Elite settings pretty good and just about correct. I find Epic more tedious than challenging however…

If by find Normal too much like Hard you mean that there is not a noticeable increase in difficulty then yes.

I actually find difficult settings cluster by Module and Update: that is that quests released closer together (often as part of a single release or as parts of a chain) have similar difficult on similar settings which differ from those of other quests of the same level released previously or subsequently. Logically the rotation of level designers probably explains this, but I am not familiar with who is doing what quest and I do not believe it has been made public since Vale (Mod6). Nevertheless this would be something worth considering.

For challenge vs. success on normal I expect to not need resources/consumables in order to succeed, although those would make it easier, but it should require average teamwork and tactics to do so. For Hard, good teamwork and tactics should be able to succeed without needing consumables although resources maybe expended. Elite requires great teamwork and tactics while needing resource expenditure and potentially consumable usage. With Casual I expect to be able to succeed with all party members phoning in their performances drunk.
For this purpose resources refer to easily replaced items (scrolls, wands, rechargeable charges) whereas consumables are more difficult to replace (mnemonics, non-rechargeable charges).

Although I do not expect to fail when playing Normal, it is a possibility however remote. No chance of Normal failure would be incredibly boring and completely negate the necessity of Casual.

One of the problems (if not THE problem) is the scaling you introduced. It essentially invalidates (or at least overwrites) the difficulty setting: it is often far easier to solo Elite, than full man Normal… I frankly cannot think of a worse mechanic to introduce into a cooperative game than one that DISCOURAGES grouping.


Yes, it sucks to fail - even more so after spending 45+ minutes in the quest - but it happens, and when it happens because of player choice it is acceptable outcome. Even then, between re-entry and the DDO: Store even failure is not a certainty anymore. Not to mention there is an easier difficulty setting than Normal as well. It also is worth noting that DDO is decidedly NOT most MMOs, and doing something different should not be seen as bad. Rewarding player skill is something the game should strive for, not run from!


Yes, currently you are needlessly RE-balancing the game for the ultra-elite. Aside from the stupidity of targeting this extremely small subsection of your player base at the expense of the VAST remainder, the fact remains that changing old content takes time away from new content and bugs/fixes that do require changes.

Let us reference the Reaver. This was the capstone raid for the game’s fourth module and first anniversary. The level cap was raised to 14 with its release. It was over 4 YEARS old when it was selected to be balanced for an end game 6 levels further on. Not surprisingly if the goal was to challenge level 20s, this lvl14 Raid FAILS utterly. It is however significantly more challenging at level, being incredibly difficult on elite especially for the original cap of 14. Net result: everyone runs it at cap… great investment of development resources.

There exists a difficulty setting for challenging the uber-player: EPIC. Had development not waffled from the original statement of every release would include an Epic difficulty to oh we are going to avoid epics and then back to here are some more Epic raids to challenge you this might have actually been useful. Ultimately rather than finishing Epic Gianthold you ****ed away time and effort to change the base quest needlessly and did not even accomplish your goal.

The bigger issue with changing old content is that the people that are uber that you apparently want to challenge have ALREADY FARMED IT DOWN. The only people that are punished by these changes are the newer players that have not gotten everything they need (let alone all they want) to move on.


J-

Excluding runs with fewer than six people, I have not seen a Reaver failed at-level as a result of anything other than puzzle failure. It is widely PUGged, on elite, by 14-16s. I've solohealed Bravery runs.

When it came out, Reaver was a pure puzzle quest. Figure out the puzzle, and you had a guaranteed completion. A couple of individuals dying was common, but the completion was assured.

Now, it's back to the same. One tank rolls a 3 on Disintegrate and dies, the next steps in, and the Reaver seldom casts it twice in a two minute period. Some groups kite him instead of tanking him, and that is easier still.

The only reason it is mostly run at 20 is because people are 14-16 for such a short time, and flagging through Crucible is very hard without breaking Bravery streaks. So there are not many flagged 14-16s, and the lockout timer makes it very difficult to get a group - most people are 17 by the time they've done the raid two or three times.


Reaver elite at level is easier than a LOT of quests noone has mentioned in this thread. I've wiped a lot more in Co6 part 5 elite, or Dreams of Insanity elite, or even Xorian Cypher Hard - all MUCH harder to do at-level than the Reaver raid is.

The old elite Reaver (the 35000hp one from pre U11) would fit well as a quest boss in a Normal difficulty level 16 6-person quest.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

To improve the "fun factor" for teams of all sizes (1 player to a full team), here's one suggestion:

Let team leaders choose the difficulty level per mission (casual, ... elite) and also let the team leader specify the number of players for which mobs will be scaled - with a key constraint as outlined later.

For example, somebody who loves extreme challenge can choose to play all missions on elite difficulty with mobs scaled for the maximum number of players. A brand new player can play as "one player" on casual / normal / ... A moderately experienced, reasonably well geared player can play as one player on hard difficulty, or as two players on normal (or casual) difficulty. Or whatever. Teams can do the same thing, scaling the overall challenge level up or down, in accordance with what makes sense for them.

The basic idea is that by giving players more control over their chosen challenge level, they'll choose whatever allows them to have the most fun -- really, why would players make any other choice? Teams would (generally) pick a player scaling value and difficulty level that suited their desired pace and level of challenge, as well.

A key balance consideration is to set a "floor" on how a mission can be scaled, vis a vis the number of players selected, that is equal to or greater than the number of players on the team. Thus, a team of six could not select "equal to one player" for a mission, for obvious reasons related to game balance; a team of six players would always be set for six players, for missions for which a team of six is the maximum size. A team of five, however, would get the chance to select mission difficulty level, as well as having mobs scaled for either 5 or 6 players.

This kind of player control over both the number of players to which a character is equivalent and the "overall" difficulty level of mobs exists in at least one more game that I know about, and I really liked having that flexibility. More player choice = more fun for teams of all sizes.

[ddobard1]

DDO's difficulty is acceptable! But if you wanna make the game a better game.... make it tougher! With more difficulties to overcome......

Normal difficulty right now is a joke!!!!! Never fail a quest? Who wants success guaranteed in an MMO? Come on.....

I feel the game is balanced through the levels..... No more easy buttons, plz.

Heroes shouldnt run freely around foes' territory without taking any penalty..... Reality is welcome... Keep dungeon scale!

You've been balancing the game for the uber-player.... LOL

Keep tuned with d&d! Bring in the next years the DRUID, the GNOME, the GOBLIN, etc. DDO is the best of all because you respect D&D! (Yes Gnomes are +2 Constitution and -2 Strength)

STAY DDO

[BossOfEarth]

DDO's difficulty is good because of the broad spectrum of choices. There are a handful of quests that are notoriously difficult at level and that's good! And for risk free questing, there's always slayer -- each kill counts towards the goal. Personaly, I'd like to have more activites like slayer where you can come and go as you please.

The best quests offer a late game chance to increase the difficulty. I really enjoy that aspect of Tower of Despair. If you want Sulo's chest you've gotta pull off the rest of the quest with style. The first quest that has such a meaninful decision point is the Sewers of Azagkor, the choice to risk fighting the Clay Golum in the waterfall is a choice fraught with danger.

I'd also like the ability to level-down. Personaly, I love the Pit and I would run it nonstop if I could get my main in there. But usualy my main is the wrong level. And when I had a friend join DDO, I had difficulty grouping with him because his lowby leveled up faster than my TR but my alts were too high level, and then he quit. So... the option to level-down to enter lower level quests and group with friends would be great.

[sirgog]

DDO's difficulty is good because of the broad spectrum of choices. There are a handful of quests that are notoriously difficult at level and that's good! And for risk free questing, there's always slayer -- each kill counts towards the goal. Personaly, I'd like to have more activites like slayer where you can come and go as you please.

The best quests offer a late game chance to increase the difficulty. I really enjoy that aspect of Tower of Despair. If you want Sulo's chest you've gotta pull off the rest of the quest with style. The first quest that has such a meaninful decision point is the Sewers of Azagkor, the choice to risk fighting the Clay Golum in the waterfall is a choice fraught with danger.
...

Slayer IMO needs more XP so that running it actually advances your character. I'd rather a clear warning is given for the 'notoriously tough' quests too.

On TOD - I like the idea, but not so much the implementation in TOD. Fighting Suulo doesn't really make the fight harder, just longer (and more SP strained) as Suulo doesn't really interact with Horoth at all. An example of an optional that really makes a fight harder is the Domination optional in Lord of Blades (doing it the proper way, i.e. not marking LOB until the Quori are up), where doing the optional adds a lot of new, nasty mobs.

The problem with these optionals is that they make it harder to form a group for the exact way you want to run a raid. Not only do you need 11 other flagged and prepared players, but they all need to be willing to run 'Hard + Optional' or whatever.

[Shade]

The biggest thing being done wrong lately with game difficulty:

The lack of difficulty options.

It's a massive step in the wrong direction. As you can see from this thread, there is a huge diversity in what players want.. So more options is the answer.

The fact U12 came out with ZERO difficulty settings was a huge disapointment. Along with U9/10/11 lacking any real epic options for quests is holding the game back.

All new content from now on should have all difficulty settings available.

It's something we always had great choices in the past, yet seems to have been forgotten lately. If theres to be progress, we can't be going backwards like this.

The new challenges are great. Can be really fun, lots of cool loot, etc.. Yet they very rarely get ran because they have no difficulty settings, and I the the default just can't cater to everyone. It's too easy for the hardcores, yet too hard for the casuals.. A few simple normal/hard/elite settings could solve all that.

If anything, we want more options, not less. Not silly scaling to try to make a one size fits all, it just doesn't work. The players are smart enough to use simple selection boxes, let us have them.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Really? Because I distinctly remember doing an elite dragon back in the day with 560 spell points on a cleric. The problem is that unlimited healing presents as many problems as unlimited wail of the banshee.

Sure, if you cap the number of times a melee toon can swing his weapon as well :D

I sense that you have limited propects as an MMO game designer.

[Claymorep]

If Devs opened a similar tread is a good sign that something are under study to do things better, so in the hope this will help doing a better game and some of my feelings are a bit usefull let me examine the situation.
It's near 2 monthes that I don't play this game cause I don't like so much as before (I started playing in 11/2006 and left the game after Necro 3-4 modules and returned after Shroud module and I'm feeling the exact same situation of those mods: Lack of GOOD content and left back classes).

There is a lot to say about game difficult in general and how to create happy customers but let us limit the focus on quest hardness...

Considerations:
Nerfing some classes or overpowering some others and change quests difficult (both things done at the same time) is a completely bad thing to do as You'll have 2 parameters that can create too many cases (a single class that can solo the entire quest and a 6 well geared alts that have difficulties in doing it)... A friend exping was using a monk and he can solo a lvl 17 quest in elite without difficulties and when He came at my home and played my fully geared lvl 17 reincarnating ranger was unable to do the same quest in normal. I hope this can stimulate some thoughts...
How many do lfm raids report: "Casters only"? Isn't there something wrong? Probably something on the players side by I don't think it's an all players fault...

Quest level:
As a lot of others said in this tread new content is completely much harder than old content... Let's take Chronoscope. Do You really think that a normal grouping of 12 lvl 6 alts can enjoy in doing that raid? Lvl 6 has never been endgame lvl so noone played that quest 100 times to find every single know how that comes with human experience.
Why a lvl 2-3 elite quest is so easy even with a undergeared and wrong builded alt while a lvl 16-19 normal is so hard with a fully builded-geared-reincarnated alt?
Why a lvl 17 raid (Shroud and Abbot) or a lvl 14 raid (Reaver) are not scaled about a lvl 17/14 raid party?
Normal should be affordable by casual players, hard by a not fully geared alts and elite by perfectly builded-geared-expert players (geared I mean at that lvl gear not fully epic geared alts). And clearly Epic is the last frontier and all is ok as it is now so please don't try to touch epic quests as they are ok as they are. Do I need to repeat? DON'T TOUCH EPICS.

Challenge:
Create more challenge in quests or raids doesn't mean simply add Hp/fort (or evasion in the Abbot case) but add something more... Beat a pinata for 10 minutes is not more fun than beat it for 5 minutes...
Dragon fire eggs are a right and perfect add on in the right direction and the community appreciated it but a Reaver <No good idea You die spell> is a bit "***?"
Ok to add some more hp in hard and elite but double or more it and add fortification is all You can do? Some good ideas are to add an ally to the boss in hard and elite, some more environmental effects, one more puzzle, a crash of parts of the dungeon or something similar...

A bit OP but not at all. A 30-45 minutes explorer area and a prequest to do before the raid like Titan, LOB, MA are the better thing You can do to kill a raid interest. If I'm a 2 hour evening player how can I have time to do a Titan-like raid? Or what about a LOB wipe? How much do You think that player will stay in this game? Long prequests or explorable are a time wasting thing. Come on, do You really think it is fun to do casual ADQ 1, Von 5, The Twilig forge (I write the right name as noone knows the short name anymore...) by lvl 20 alts that are there to do it in epic? What's the fun of 30-45 minutes reach-the-fun-raid parts? (LOB and MA too).
All others MMO are some years that bases their quests/missions in 15-30 minutes as it's well know that something is funny if it envolve 15-25 minutes player attention and DDO that require a party too (loss oftime to create it) have no fun-gear-worthless-funkilling-timewasting prequests...

The last consideration.
Take in consideration that 95% of those that write in forum are endgamers, so don't balance all the game to these 10% (Even if I doubt it is 10% anymore after 4 no epic Updates...).

Sorry for my english and I hope it can help ;)

[suszterpatt]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
Imagine the following two characters.

Bob is a 28pt first lifer. He's not very optimized, but fairly decently built. At level 12, he still has a couple pieces of Korthos gear because it's better than random drops and he doesn't have the money to live off the AH. By level 20, he will have acquired one or two GS/raid items at best, and can only begin to farm epics.

Drizzt is a completionist with 3 past lives in all classes. At level 12, he has greensteel loot in all slots and +2 tomes eaten. He has fully upgraded raid/GS/epic loot for all slots that he can equip as soon as he hits level 20.


You just asked this question from both Bob and Drizzt. Do you think there is going to be any sort of consensus?



But to give an actual answer: I feel that DDO is taking a fundamentally wrong approach to difficulty. It's always about how much damage enemies do, how high their saves are, how much HP they have, etc. And still, enemies will happily keep running through firewalls and blade barriers, wait patiently while you kill them with ranged attacks from atop a crate, cast the same couple spells and use the same tactics regardless of how effective they are, etc. Being a programmer myself, I know how unpopular I'm going to be when I say this, but for the love of god, can we have some proper AI? You could vastly reduce the power gap between the Bobs and Drizzts if the enemies relied on tactics instead of stats to beat players.

[MadFloyd]

Imagine the following two characters.

Bob is a 28pt first lifer. He's not very optimized, but fairly decently built. At level 12, he still has a couple pieces of Korthos gear because it's better than random drops and he doesn't have the money to live off the AH. By level 20, he will have acquired one or two GS/raid items at best, and can only begin to farm epics.

Drizzt is a completionist with 3 past lives in all classes. At level 12, he has greensteel loot in all slots and +2 tomes eaten. He has fully upgraded raid/GS/epic loot for all slots that he can equip as soon as he hits level 20.


You just asked this question from both Bob and Drizzt. Do you think there is going to be any sort of consensus?



Nope, don't expect a consensus at all. Doesn't mean the feedback isn't useful.



Being a programmer myself, I know how unpopular I'm going to be when I say this, but for the love of god, can we have some proper AI? You could vastly reduce the power gap between the Bobs and Drizzts if the enemies relied on tactics instead of stats to beat players.

We're hiring.

[ComicRelief]

...We're hiring.

You couldn't afford me.
;)

[Kilnedric]

Nope, don't expect a consensus at all. Doesn't mean the feedback isn't useful.



We're hiring.

Telecommuting an option or do you need to be in the area? :)

[Hafeal]

We're hiring.

I think I have found part of my new sig at long last.


You couldn't afford me.
;)

Ah, they have WB money now - don't be so sure; if you are THAT good of course ... ;)

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Some Epic/Elite Quests take way to long to complete now due to the higher boss HP. This leads to some very annoying consequences.

Pot Chugging for Divines to complete (biggest bugbear ... far less divines willing to cast many raids)
Crazy SP regen tactics - leading to things taking much longer
Very selective lfm's excluding all but the best - leads to less successful raid groups.
Caster Tanks ?? Dots, arrow sp regen and shield block to win.... ***?? It works but is slow ... leading to more pot chugging

IMHO - More often than not .....
Elite Tod is un-pugable
Hard/Epic LOB un-pugable
Elite (even hard) Abbot un-pugable
Epic Chrono un-puggable except for all caster (and even seen those fail many times)
Elite Shroud un-pugable
Epic VON 6 un-pugable or 50/50 at best with completions

With anything but an all guild run (or very selective friends) the above raids are failing 4 out of 5 times.

All the raids are easy if you chug and I've been in plenty that complete with chuggers. I've been in more that fail with divines yelling "im outa pots"

On Cannith with the current high end player population this is my experience.

Turbine - You didn't make it harder with your end boss changes... you've made it longer ... its the boredom, RSI or lack of pots that is causing quest fails and they are failing a lot on the above quests. This is not fun, people are leaving because of this.

[sirgog]

Some Epic/Elite Quests take way to long to complete now due to the higher boss HP. This leads to some very annoying consequences.

Pot Chugging for Divines to complete (biggest bugbear ... far less divines willing to cast many raids)
Crazy SP regen tactics - leading to things taking much longer
Very selective lfm's excluding all but the best - leads to less successful raid groups.
Caster Tanks ?? Dots, arrow sp regen and shield block to win.... ***?? It works but is slow ... leading to more pot chugging

IMHO - More often than not .....
Elite Tod is un-pugable
Hard/Epic LOB un-pugable
Elite (even hard) Abbot un-pugable
Epic Chrono un-puggable except for all caster (and even seen those fail many times)
Elite Shroud un-pugable
Epic VON 6 un-pugable or 50/50 at best with completions

With anything but an all guild run (or very selective friends) the above raids are failing 4 out of 5 times.

All the raids are easy if you chug and I've been in plenty that complete with chuggers. I've been in more that fail with divines yelling "im outa pots"

On Cannith with the current high end player population this is my experience.

Turbine - You didn't make it harder with your end boss changes... you've made it longer ... its the boredom, RSI or lack of pots that is causing quest fails and they are failing a lot on the above quests. This is not fun, people are leaving because of this.

Those are all optional high difficulty settings, they should not be easily PUGged. Otherwise we are back to the U9 days of masses of people leaving because there is no challenge left in the game. I witnessed multiple guilds fall apart as people were lost to other games.

For what it's worth, I've PUGged:

Hard LOB many times. Normally more pots looted raidwide (including the preraid) than are used, although there's been a couple of expensive runs.
eChrono (usually everyone has half a blue bar left at the end too)
Elite Shroud (unlike the others, this is SP pot negative every time, but it's FUN)
eVON6 (which is only ever PUGged on Khyber, noone bothers with guild runs because it is easy enough to be a sure win)

Sounds like the healer types you group with need to learn to use scrolls properly.

[ComicRelief]

...Ah, they have WB money now - don't be so sure; if you are THAT good of course ... ;)

Well, I guess that would depend on "what" I would need to be *that* good with...
;)

[Desonde]

I think the game difficulty is pretty good up until certain select raids/epic quests (where they used to be complex puzzles that are now solved and have had the difficulty ramped up in terms of more hp and more dps, neither of which make it harder, just longer and more resource intensive).

My biggest problem with your design however is the random bs that you've added. 1d4 neg levels on attack on failed save in a lvl 7 dungeon? That's a 40% chance of being reduced to level 1 in two hits, and a 100% chance of being level 1 in 6 if you are extremely lucky (6.25%), and if your saves are great (not decent, great) you roll one 1 and suddenly you have to roll 8+ on a d20 if you luck out and lose 1 level (25% chance of best case scenario), all while having to protect a squishy who doesn't have great saves and will be reduced to level one quickly and killed after an hour long quest.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Those are all optional high difficulty settings, they should not be easily PUGged. Otherwise we are back to the U9 days of masses of people leaving because there is no challenge left in the game. I witnessed multiple guilds fall apart as people were lost to other games.

For what it's worth, I've PUGged:

Hard LOB many times. Normally more pots looted raidwide (including the preraid) than are used, although there's been a couple of expensive runs.
eChrono (usually everyone has half a blue bar left at the end too)
Elite Shroud (unlike the others, this is SP pot negative every time, but it's FUN)
eVON6 (which is only ever PUGged on Khyber, noone bothers with guild runs because it is easy enough to be a sure win)

Sounds like the healer types you group with need to learn to use scrolls properly.

You are not on Cannith so your experience doesn't add value to my comments.

You are implying no healers on Cannith know how to scroll heal? elitest bs and not helpful.

Experienced well geared player on Cannith complete EChrono easily with np. Pug group I see fail more often than complete. EChrono is the worst example out of my list anyway.

What you are missing is that the population numbers and number of high end players on Cannith compared with your server are different. Much lower on Cannith I am guessing as the server is newer.

Therefore on Cannith - to get the easy completions like you say you experience regularly - it requires all guild runs or like i originally described. I have completed LOB on Normal with Puggers ....BUT ..... it is rare on Cannith - Because due to the server population being lower the % numbers of experienced vs noob/undergeared players is much lower.

This thread is for the DEVS to get feedback ..... put your feedback by all means (in YOUR threads) .... but keep your incorrect opinions about MY experience on Cannith out of my thread ... It does not help the devs to hear Elitist comment like ... nah its still to easy when the raids I list are failing more often than completing on Cannith. It has nothing to do with scroll healing.

Turbine make global changes, but all our servers are different. If they had different difficulties based on different servers then I would have no issue. Drop the Boss HP on Cannith and I bet no one on Cannith would complain. Make boss HP higher on your server .... win win

Longer does not = harder

Blades spawning on gnoll deaths = harder (and fun)
Beating Harry for 4 rounds on Elite = longer not harder(and is less fun)

[lugoman]

It would be nice to get a comment from the devs about their previous attempts at making raids harder. Abbot, evon6 and edq2 all were made 'harder'. I wonder how the players are reacting to the changes? More or less of these being run lately? How many LoB's/MA's are being run on elite/epic?

[sephiroth1084]

It would be nice to get a comment from the devs about their previous attempts at making raids harder. Abbot, evon6 and edq2 all were made 'harder'. I wonder how the players are reacting to the changes? More or less of these being run lately? How many LoB's/MA's are being run on elite/epic?
Abbot got over-tweaked. He needs to lose Evasion and get his HP on elite knocked back down about 25%.

The big problem with Evasion is that he is also immune to level 4 and below spells, cold and electricity, which removes almost all the tools casters have for dealing damage to him. If he simply had a high Reflex save, half damage would have to suffice, and the raid would still be tough and long. With Evasion, it just makes casters a weak choice, especially for Savants that are semi-locked into using spells that don't work on him.

eDQ still feels easier than it was when the raid first came out, but is more difficult than it was during the time that the "ball method" strategy was the strategy of choice. This is good.

eVoN 6 is a little harder than it was, but not significantly so. I still see more runs failing on the bases, or due to pitiful DPS than the fire eggs, but the eggs keep groups on their toes and help the casters (arcane and divine) get through the last 20% or so of her health.

I see very few elite and epic LoBs up--mostly guild runs I suspect, and have only been in 1 run of each of those difficulties myself. In my opinion, the LoB has too much HP on elite and epic (maybe drop by 15 and 25% respectively), and needs to have his to-hit on elite and epic nerfed so that AC is relevant on the harder difficulties.

I hardly see MA run at all, and don't think I've seen it run on elite or epic at all. I don't know what value there is in running it on higher difficulties other than for the rune arm parts (maybe?), and there is little reason to run it more than 5 or 10 times in general.

[sirgog]

I see very few elite and epic LoBs up--mostly guild runs I suspect, and have only been in 1 run of each of those difficulties myself. In my opinion, the LoB has too much HP on elite and epic (maybe drop by 15 and 25% respectively), and needs to have his to-hit on elite and epic nerfed so that AC is relevant on the harder difficulties.

I hardly see MA run at all, and don't think I've seen it run on elite or epic at all. I don't know what value there is in running it on higher difficulties other than for the rune arm parts (maybe?), and there is little reason to run it more than 5 or 10 times in general.

Elite LOB and MA are never run.

Epic MA is run quite a bit, because the limiting factor for t3 Alchemicals is t3 binding shards. Actually now I seldom see anything else run.

[sephiroth1084]

Elite LOB and MA are never run.

Epic MA is run quite a bit, because the limiting factor for t3 Alchemicals is t3 binding shards. Actually now I seldom see anything else run.
Are you looking at the LFM panel, Numot? I see normal runs up usually 2 or 3 times daily, with 0-2 hards up a day. I see about 1 epic run up every 2 days or so.

Elite doesn't drop anything that hard doesn't? Or it doesn't drop the t3 binding shards?

What does MA offer on elite? On epic? I see far fewer MA runs of any difficulty level.

[red_cardinal]

We're hiring.

Excellent, by the end of the year, I guess there will be some improvements to monster AI and will include some of the following things:
- when a mob doesn't see a player and has ranged ability AND player is BLOCKED - don't stand in the same place and shoot at the obstacle/wall/door,
- when a mob sees a player and doesn't have ranged ability and can't reach it and player is ranging the mob, back off,
- when a mob sees a player and has a ranged ability and uses it and player isn't blocked and player is targeted (eg. tieflings in elite Small Problem target me behind a rock), MAKE SURE that their ranged attack can reach me - they are throwing daggers which are rendered as an arc, instead of a straight line (like when a player uses thrown weapon),
- when a mob thinks that there's a hidden enemy nearby and goes to check it out and targets an enemy - make sure it doesn't 'hit shadows' - it should only follow player's path, but player should be doing checks to HIDE/MOVE SILENTLY to avoid being spotted. Key skills to use here for the mob: SPOT/LISTEN check against player's HIDE/MOVE SILENTLY,
- when a mob follows a hidden enemy path, make sure animation of mob moving forward is INDEED A MOB MOVING FORWARD.

Mob spells:
- they should be adjusted to the dungeon scaling - kobold shaman is scaled the best :) - normal - magic missile, cause fear, hard - hold person, elite - curse, lightning bolt.

[Madryoch]

Well perhaps the first time someone gets to level 20 everything is fun and all to explore. Yet after a second time or a third time it just gets less interesting. There are two possible solutions to this problem in my opinion. Either make the quests longer but significantly increase the exp they provide to reduce the number of repetitions that are required in order to level up or make em shorter and give exp as u ve been giving. And by longer i do not mean kill n mobs but we want to make it long so make it 2xn mobs. Try to make em more fun and something new to experience during the quest every momment.I know that completionists are going to hate me for saying the above but oh well my personal opinion is that a game should be fun to play not a job to be done.

Increase the difficulty between levels by making more spells useful . For example mass curse that the curse pots do not remove and requires xyz spell to take care of it. Add usefulness to certain classes in raids like sp regeneration ... and by that i mean serious sp regeneration not 2-3 sp per 2 seconds when my toon has 3k sp.

Do not make it nearly impossible for people who do not have access to store items often , to deal with a specific raid. Resources SHOULD be used when people make serious mistakes but shouldn't be required if people play smart and carefuly without mistakes.

Increase the limit of times required for the loot to degrade in chests so people can at least farm them. By increasing a quests duration and placing such interesting chests at the end u also make players run the quest in parties more often and you also have em farm for the item without following the same repetition method they always do in most cases.

Upgrade loot quality for higher difficulties. I need to see more items drop only on the higher difficulties in more quests or have a significantly better chance to drop. When someone beats elite on a quest they should be rewarded with better stuff than someone completing it on normal and getting lucky. Seals of abbot and reaver's were nice examples but the rewards provided by the upgrade of the items was not always that gr8.

When designing items to bring out keep in mind that there are more than casters and dpsers out there. What do i mean ... For example i made a tank toon. I need incite i need healing amp and i d also like to be able to create guards. Taking Lotb loot for example. On my tank the only thing interesting there is the alchemical constitution for me ...Everything else is bad and i don't find it worthy replacing my levik's shield for something like that. You might want to argue that a weapon from therewith higher damage output would be better than my ... Epic Chimera's Fang ... well not really ... I have the 3 dragonmarks of sentinel so i don't think there are any weapons for sword and board build better than that one.

I ve suggested this before on savant nerf of icy prison.While i find that the LotB fight was very nice and refreshing a change due to the reason i ll mention in a bit , I still believe that it has a long way to go.The encounters are based on 3 roles still that encapsulate all the other things but not well enough. My suggestion is return things like Icy Prison working on boss (make it a 6 sec duration 30 seconds cooldown ability for example) and add new abilities that are class specific to all classes that are unique and useful and sometimes even required in raids. For example ... boss A is doing this kind of devastating attack or gets this defensive buff or does this miscelaneous effect that needs to be either countered after it happens or be prevented to begin with. Perhaps the boss can get very high AC that would ruin dps and have a class specific ability lower it again.Add more game mechanics. Make each class desirable if possible in the raids for the abilities they offer to the pool and not for being just another healer/caster/dps. In my opinion more distinct roles should be introduced. Then design the raid accordingly so these new abilities are to be used and in highest difficulties aim for a very balanced party. That way u reward both pure class builds and u also increase the ''player skill'' required in order to play ur game and the challenge of it.

Finaly readjust the roles. I am tired of seeing a tank having to rely on high damage output to maintain aggro. Make tanks paragons of defense and dps paragons of offense and hybrids be half assed in both aspects ... No class shouldbe able to take the role of more than one or other classes that can't, become less desirable throughout the raids which results in cookie cutter builds that people are so proud of having.

I understand the need to stick to d&d rules since that's the name of the game yet if we make so many alterations to these rules we might need to do more to make the game more fun.I personaly don't care what the game is called even though i like playing pen and paper version of d&d. I want the game i am playing to be fun.

P.S. I know some of the things i mentioned might have nothing to do with the difficulty ofthe game but i am trying to give a different designing perspective. This post might belong to enhancements revamp as well .

P.S.2 LoL don't hate me but reduce events like Fail games of Risia cause the only thing they add to the experience of someone of the game is ... LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAG

[morticianjohn]

IMHO - More often than not .....
Elite Tod is un-pugable
Hard/Epic LOB un-pugable
Elite (even hard) Abbot un-pugable
Epic Chrono un-puggable except for all caster (and even seen those fail many times)
Elite Shroud un-pugable
Epic VON 6 un-pugable or 50/50 at best with completions

With anything but an all guild run (or very selective friends) the above raids are failing 4 out of 5 times.



I agree with some of what you've said however, I don't know if you have a good feel for how frequently these complete and/or don't complete. That or you're exaggerating for emphasis when you say they fail 4/5 times.

Elite ToD - only seen one or two LFM's up for it. I tried it once, would likely have been a 0 pot completion but ended in a wipe when someone stole aggro from the AC tank.
LoB - Even for normal I hardly ever see LFM's for it. I did get one completion this past week. I don't play as often during peak hours though so maybe there are plenty of normal PuG's. I drank a couple of pots but as there were at least 2 first timers (in addition to me) I don't know if that would be the norm for a normal LoB pug.
Abbot - We've never had very many Abbot PuG's even before the changes but for the first time we are starting to see party wipes after the puzzles are completed which rarely (if ever) happened before.
eChrono - I haven't had an all caster eChrono fail in months. In ~20 all caster eChrono's I've been in I've experienced 1 failure (well 2 if you count the marketplace lag near the bank which wiped one group but the group just reformed and ran it no problem). Although it is near impossible to form a traditional party for this raid and even harder to get a completion from that party makeup.
Elite Shroud - Probably 50/50 success rate I've had with all caster elite shrouds. Sometimes I'll drink a pot if too many people die round 1 of part 4 but it can be pot free if you get the right people.
eVon6 - 50/50 here as well although never on Velah. If the party wipes it's generally on the islands. I've never had to drink a pot on this raid since my first completion.
eDQ2 - even though you didn't list it my PuG completions for this is only about 50/50 and I see quite a few pots go into this raid.

Also you made a very good point about how people's experiences will differ from server to server (maybe even play hours on a given server). So for people to assume that because things have become easy for their server everyone else is experiencing the same thing is a bad assumption.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Bob is a 28pt first lifer. He's not very optimized, but fairly decently built. At level 12, he still has a couple pieces of Korthos gear because it's better than random drops and he doesn't have the money to live off the AH. By level 20, he will have acquired one or two GS/raid items at best, and can only begin to farm epics.

Drizzt is a completionist with 3 past lives in all classes. At level 12, he has greensteel loot in all slots and +2 tomes eaten. He has fully upgraded raid/GS/epic loot for all slots that he can equip as soon as he hits level 20.


Korthos gear is AWESOME! All my blue bars have Archivist's Necklace and at least half of my lvl 20s carry Bracers of Assistance. More than 1 time I've gotten an incapped raid or epic healer back on their feet with this uber-clickie!

[goblean]

Imagine the following two characters.

Bob is a 28pt first lifer. He's not very optimized, but fairly decently built. At level 12, he still has a couple pieces of Korthos gear because it's better than random drops and he doesn't have the money to live off the AH. By level 20, he will have acquired one or two GS/raid items at best, and can only begin to farm epics.

Drizzt is a completionist with 3 past lives in all classes. At level 12, he has greensteel loot in all slots and +2 tomes eaten. He has fully upgraded raid/GS/epic loot for all slots that he can equip as soon as he hits level 20.


They could change Epic to a difficulty level for all quests that would be tough as nails for Drizzt type characters. The favor would remain the same with maybe a slight bump to xp and chance for loot. Level 20+ would still be required to get epic shards/seals. Bob would still get his max favor, loot and xp. Drizzt would get his challenge he has always wanted.

[KanedaEX]

Grinding have decreased a little. It would be sweet to keep balancing things so the game feel less grindy.

Aside that, shroud blades feel a bit over exagereted, abbot is so unreliable that is becoming inexistent. Puzzles shou
ld fail the whole quest. Maybe if they were optionals for extra chests.

[allaanon]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

I don't believe the game is too "hard" in general, but I do feel most raids take way too much time. I typically play from 7pm - 11pm CST, I have a mid 70's level guild of solid players that typically have to fill 4-5 slots in a raid with others or outside guild friends. My characters are pretty well equipped and my main is a 44dc necro (43dc enchant) and my melee have full epic chrono gear.

Taking Epic Chronoscope as an example, the challenge of the quest is perfect right now in my opinion. However, by the time we fill that last needed slot, ship buff and raid we have over an hour into that one quest. The newer content is even worse with MA and LoB taking an hour and a half each even on low difficulties by the time you form, buff, clear adventure zones and raid.

Now I played EQ for 5-6 years and these times don't even come close to the old 80 person raids that took all night to clear a wing, or forever just to break into a plane. However, I've really enjoyed this game and the faster pace.

It just seems like in trying to make things more challenging, or releasing more challenging new content... things have got much longer. I'd rather have strategy > endurance.

Thanks for listening.

[Solmage]

We're hiring.

/Pwned.

[monsoon22]

Personally my take is that the game is reasonably consistent at lower levels, with some exceptions already mentioned here such as scaling for elite in some packs so I won't bother repeating. Where things start to deviate is at the higher levels or when talking TR's and this comes down more to player choices rather than dev responsibility to balance. What I mean by that is the player who has all his greensteel waiting for him as well as full suites of mithral, icy bursted weapons, etc through his levelling process, that player is making a choice to overpower the content with gear and abilities that they simply should not have on a first run. I don't see a problem with this as I do this myself on my characters as what I am after is getting back to 20 again fairly quickly. Rebalancing to make things challenging for those who make the choice to use overequipped toons leaves out those who are not so and simply slows down the progress of those who make this choice to level more quickly.

Another aspect is the much debated changes to Shroud. When a player like myself chooses to take a geared 20 into a normal level 17 quest I don't expect to be challenged. I take the 20 in to achieve a goal which is to aquire more ingredients for making greensteel which is all but a requirement for running appropriate level 20 quests. Balancing these quests for the highest denominator only increases the time and frustration level of a newer build before they can get into quests that are designed around this gear already being available.

Further it has been mentioned by many others but changing the bosses/encounters where it is just grinding hit points away is not increasing the challenge but rather the resource expenditure. This is a big part I feel behind the cleric/healer war that is currently raging and very much highlights the current class inequities. Basically the spell pass has done a lot to 'uberize' the caster classes and the balancing changes 'aka fort' have minimized melees to the point where the whole flavour of the game has changed. Much of the high end content including epic is a cake walk to solo for my pretty much out of the box pale master where my not yet optimized melees are struggling on at level normals. Now I am not saying a toon should not struggle on an at level if not fully geared, what I am saying if one toon struggles shouldn't all if the player is the same (aka the knowledge of the player is obviously the same if the same player is playing both toons)?

Basically what I am saying is that balancing for the ubers includes the uber classes, not just uber geared, and it has created an end game which is nothing like the experiences at lower levels. Also, the balancing should not be done in the first place for a player who chooses to overpower a quest with an inappropriate toon if you will. Just because I run deleras on my 20 to find a carnifex or tangleroot to get deathward googles for a new toon I want to build does not mean the devs should rebalance the quest streams for epic grade 20's just because I am so shortsighted that I cry out it is boring for my 20. This is what has been done imho with the Shroud and Reaver, can't comment on Abbot as that quest is so hopelessly unfriendly to people learning it outside of guild that the few times I have gone in pug style it has proven to be a total waste of time. All balancing did for the Abbot is put the final nail in that new players to the quest are simply not welcome there.

As it is good form not to complain without offering solutions, I suggest toning down rebalancing the lower quests for the highest denominator and instead work on the true end game. There a spell 'un'pass seems in order to me along with undoing some of the boss changes. If changes to quests are in order, make them truly challenging vs upping the grind. Variable monster placement and densities is far more interesting then simply upping boss hp. For this I have to aplaud the changes to trap placement and type as well as lethality. This made things both more interesting and deadly without having to resort to standing in magic spots or kiting unbeatable mobs or other such blatantly cheesy tactics.

[Marlanus]

I am sure this has been brought up numerous times. Even so here is my spin on it.
I strongly believe that the end reward for any quest or raid should scale according to the difficulty in which it is played. Take Devil Assault for instance, regardless of the difficulty its played, the end reward is the same as though it were played on Normal.
This being said, the more difficult a quest/raid the greater the end reward should be.

As for difficulty it should stay as is. Because if something is tweeked a little here or a little there, it will make some foilks happy and frustrate others. There really is no way make everyone happy. However what I would suggest is scale the number of mobs to the number of players in a group/raid group. This will increase the risk and should increase the reward as well.

[parvo]

DDO is absurdly easy. If it weren't for permadeath play, I would have quit during the great exodus back in the day when the cap was ten. I understand there are some small percentage of quests that even the best players might have difficulty soloing on epic or pugs or whatever but that does not mean the game is difficult. Any player, even the worst, can quickly and easily cap a character to level twenty. Below is a list of design flaws that make the game too easy:

1. XP rewarded for adventures well below capability of the average player. There should be no XP given without danger of failure. None.

2. Cheap, infinite supply of commodity magic. Any player in the game can stock up on healing, protections, cures, etc, at a cost that is negligible.
"Hmmm....let's go in this quest called taming the flames."
"Oh look, there are flame gushers and fire elementals."
"Well fellas, the magic shop is like one block from here..."
"Let's recall and stock up on items that make us immune to the difficulty of the quest"
Does that sound heroic in any sense? No. Its the absurd reality of having powerful commodity magic available on every other corner.

3. Lack of random traps. Memorization is not nearly as heroic as reacting to the unknown. I'll use the first trap in waterworks as an example. It is always there. It always sprays acid. It can always be bypassed by opening the valve and shooting a mob to draw it in. The trap goes off one time and not again. Imagine this scenario instead. 8 out of 10 times, there is no trap there at all. When the trap is there, 4 out of 10 times it is fire (what should be the most common elemental damage). 3 out of 10 it is cold. 2 out of 10 it is acid. 1 out of 10 it is electric. The location of the trap does not need to be random, yet it will play and feel like a random trap! Using this technique we could double or triple the number of potential traps in every quest and it will feel just as if the locations are randomized. I've seen posts before stating random traps are too difficult to code. I can't bring myself to believe that. The current design is uninspired.

4. Lack of random encounters. Rote memory is not nearly as heroic as reacting to the unknown. I'll give one good and one bad example in the same quest. Swiped Signet. There are two locked doors. One locked door is standard and can be unlocked with knock or rogue skills. When it is unlocked and opened, a pack of iron defenders always spawns with one named spawn. In another area of the quest, there is a door sealed with a rune (the rune is always wisdom, but that is another topic). Inside the rune-locked door there can be a variety of different mephits. Sometimes it is a named air mephit. Sometimes a fire mephit and so on. This is a much better design. It would be better if sometimes it was something besides mephit, but at least the players might use a different part of their brains to deal with it. They have to observe what the enemy is and decide if they want resists or protections before engaging. Reaction and problem solving play is much better than memorized actions.

5. No penalty for character death. Without penalty for failure there is no sense of heroic accomplishment. No reason to save your group mates in peril. No reason to struggle against the evil that wants your character dead. It all becomes a meaningless time consuming grind toward the inevitable loot pull. For what? So the player can do it again but with another +1. No penalty for character death = no challenge. No challenge = no fun. Back in the day, you mistakenly attributed part of the exodus to the XP death penalty. Most of those players really left because they were capped with nothing left to do. Players don't leave a game because it is too challenging. They leave because there is no challenge left.

6. Ever-increasing character capability. Characters are just too powerful. Damage output is ridiculous. Healing capability is ridiculous. AC. HP. everything else. It's so inflated the only way to challenge a character is some extreme challenge where the enemies are ridiculously inflated too. The mudflation in DDO goes well beyond anything I saw in previous games I played. I think it is simply a lack of consistent design philosophy.

[nayozz]

i realize many players ditch their characters around level 12
so, somehow level 12 is the hard point...

quests start easy and become harder... till the point of reaching a brick...
then from level 14 to 17 they are "easy again" and you can reach lvl 20 doing shroud or some inspired quartier which give less xp, are more harder and "boring" for the inflated monsters hp but still doable...


probably the problem around lvl 12 is that quests lvl 8-9-10 are too hard, or raids...

von series is the most "easy" despite having a regenerating troll with perma lock + ally who regenerate and heal that makes groups with low dps awful

von 2 has been modified and now despite beholder presence is more doable

von 3 is doable... the marut at end may be a problem but it seems his regeneration rate is worse than von 1 sidekick troll shaman

von 4 is doable

von 5 should be split from von 6 (and adq1 from adq2)
------------------

threnal chain should be reworked a bit...

low xp, boring quests... (funny when you clear the path to reach the guy suddenly monsters repops and he can't simply cast a ddoor... but has masochistic suicidal tendencies to just get killed and make you fail and waste time)

also the fight in the library with coyle could be improved a bit... giving coyle at least the prowless and skill of an hireling... (like those guys in standing your ground in the tavern of sharn syndicate.. they do their part)
if coyle could have some defensive spells to survive better, boost the party that could help making the quest less frustrating.

compare also rewards of delera to those of threnal and based on that comparison boost reward of threnal to put them on pair with delera's... why i always see more lfm of deleras instead of threnal ?

cause threnal needs a rework ! (as you did with gladewatch defence lvl 6 free quest, you made it less frustrating btw if you can make it more as the lvl 19 shavarath quest... a quest long 10min max but with strong waves of monsters...)

[Ungood]

No challenge = no fun.

I have come to honestly hate it when people cite this as a justification for wanting to add annoyances to the game.

Annoying != Challenge

Death Penalty is not "Hard Core" it's an annoying waste of my time and everyone else. Loosing progression deters people from wanting to take risks to start with which is counter intuitive, or just outright poor design to want people to take a risk and punish them when they fail. That is a great way to alienate players not inspire them to play more, which is why it was taken out.

No Challenge = No Fun does NOT mean "Harder is Better"

It is a catch phrase to mean: Fun is the fine line, between winning and loosing by tight margins.

But the real question is, are the people who think the game is too easy, "Average" players?

Personally, I do not find this game to be all that easy, so I am not in favor of adding difficulty for the sheer sake of it.

[Hafeal]

The current design is uninspired.

In so many instances. And it is not that he devs do not have inspirational ideas - it just seems that everyhting for the past year or more is so 'rushed" and, well, just not well thought and 'slapped' into the game.


I think it is simply a lack of consistent design philosophy.

Well, when you consider that, naturally, there has been quite a turnover from the devs who were here in beta and the ones who are here now, there is bound to be this schism. I would just like the current regime to actually tell us what their philosophy IS, 'cause right now it feels like 'hodge podge'.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

DDO is absurdly easy. ....

I don't find this game easy. I doubt that other newer players do, either, unless they are very hardcore, constantly playing the game.

Also, there already are death penalties. When you die you lose resources because you need to repair stuff and your mission can re-set, forcing you to begin again. Plus, you lose the "flawless" bonus if you don't start over, after dying. Vets swimming in plat may see the repairs as a non-issue, but that's not true for all players. The XP loss isn't major, but it isn't zero. Having to re-start a mission can be very frustrating, especially if you've just spent over an hour or an hour and a half to get to that final fight, only to have the difficulty of that fight suddenly spike way beyond anything that came before, and then you die -- speaking from experience on this last point.

If the devs spend too much time listening to this kind of talk from vets, and then set out to fix this allegedly "general" problem of "absurdly" easy missions, then there's a good chance they will seriously screw up this game for newer players.

The one set of suggestions I agree with, from the quoted post, is that more randomization would be a *GREAT* idea for keeping the game fresh for players of all experience and wealth levels.

[BOgre]

The more I play the less I'm concerned with difficulty. I'm not sure I can explain, but I'll give it a shot.

When I first started, and everything was new, and I had no idea how much I'd play, there were indeed many times I got frustrated and bummed out about how difficult some quests were, and some level ranges too. 10-15 was a tough stretch. Invaders, Delirium, Acid Wit were brutal on me. Framework still gives my at-level alts a headache... Things got easier, friendships got forged, PUG dynamics got worked out, and my main capped.

Now I've been here a year and I'm less concerned with difficulty. I can contribute to ePartyCrashers and get a token, but I'm nowherez near tough enough to anything but pike in eDevilAssault. Normal Shroud is normal, Hard is very Hard, Elite I wouldn't attempt, knowing that I'd be more of a drain than a gain. None of that bothers me in the least really, because I'm happy to stay in the game for the long term. It's a fun hobby, it's easy on my entertainment budget, and I have friends here. I know that gear will come, tricks to beating a tough raid or quest will come with experience, there will always be someone better geared and more experienced, there will always be content I'm not ready for, there will always be a new class, class-split, PrE, gear-out, or flavor for me to try. If I can't succeed in eWizKing today, I can run nADQ2. While I'm gearing up for MasterArtificer and LordofBlades, I've got plenty of 'work' to do farming ingredients in the Vale. If I want something easy I can bring my lvl20 into the Lordsmarch chain to farm loot solo. If I want a challenge I can try elite Chronoscope solo, or put a LFM for epic.

To make a long story short, I think you've done a great job with dungeon scaling, I think highest level content is sufficiently tough for 90% of the top level players, and Casual and Normal difficulties are a decent intro for newbies, or those that will just never be 'great' gamers. That said, I wouldn't be against granting slightly better rewards in the form of xp or loot for players that MUST run casual. And i wouldn't be against a lot better rewards for that uber top 10% of the highest level players that demand an uber-epic mode. NOR would I be against a decision by Turbine that boils down to: 'We've crunched the numbers, and found that x dollars means y timesink, therefor difficulty levels will be set at z.' I understand that you have to walk a line between easybutton and failgrind, and I'm at peace with it.

[Callavan]

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.


Spending 45 minutes in a quest only to fail is frustrating. If it's due to mistakes on my part as a player, than it's part of the risks associated with adventuring. I don't expect to auto-win anything just because I've been tooling around a sewer or crypt for an hour. If I ever do, then I deserve to get knocked into Soulstone City; I've fallen asleep at the wheel. That's when failure isn't bad.

However, being forced to run a gauntlet of acid blasts, lightning bolts, and twenty-to-one ambushes against monsters with thousands of hitpoints and nary a shrine in sight isn't fun either. Not all the time, anyhow. If I've done my best and it still seems impossible to complete the mission, then it starts looking like a game balance issue. That's when failure starts being bad.

I personally have a problem with the way traps and spells scale between the difficulty levels. Going from normal where we get blasted by a trap or spell for let's say 20% of our health and then doing the same quest on hard and suddenly getting one-shot by the same traps or monsters is pretty frustrating. Especially if we chugged resistances the second time around. I have a hard time understanding why the curve is so steep regarding energy/trap/spell damage between the difficulty settings. It's ridiculous.

The sheer amount of hit points and other numbers that get dumped on top of the bad guys between the difficulty settings is similarly ridiculous, but slightly easier to handle. This also should be balanced better.

Fix your scaling. "Ur doin it rong."

To frame that in slightly different terms:

Casual -- should be soloable at level, with some challenge.
Normal -- should be challenging at level for a normal (untwinked) party of four.
Hard -- should be a challenge for a normal (untwinked) full party of six.
Elite -- should be a challenge for a party with twink gear.

At no point should any of these be patently impossible for a full party at level with good gear. The way things scale sometimes makes them feel this way. Epic is another story altogether. i don't have a dog in that fight, so no comment there.

[Synnestar35791]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
Over all; there really is a partial unbalance. With that said, it's simply people playing on differing levels of expertise that creates the unbalance. A brand new person, never having been on the realms, isn't warmly accepted sometimes. The flip side of that is veteran players assuming that new people WON'T sign up to play... BUT the question is answered in the not knowing the game or functionality. Starting out is hard. Once a person gets a feel for options and user settings, it changes a little. Most people that have experience can solo the quests upto level 6ish.
The hirelings make it possible along with multi-classing. Still, TR'z do expect a level of experience and wisdom when they form a party. the quest constructions, in my opion, are respectable upto level 5, there are 3 spots that could use examination, but considering we should expect to battle equal opposition, it's about right upto there. Beyond that, it's case specific.

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
I think , in all honesty , some sections are off balance, but these things are extremely specific. I really would think a system could be developed in a software code that the characters entering an adventure are examined for structure & the opposing forces could be scaled to meet this with respecting challenge... but again, it would require some calculations and what-not beyond the scope of my ability to speak of further as I am not software/script specialist...

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
Normal should be very little challenge, a surprise is good, something that takes effort to do - sure, but questing depends on story-line & for the most part story-lines seem short till level 6, then it begins to build into longer arcs...

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.
Very much agreed here on this. spend an hour of real life playing a game to be met with a challenge that is insurmountable & beyond hope of completion is disheartening & frustrating. There are a lot of DDO'ers that expect to be met with challenge above & beyond the scope of their characters & they like it that way, others(like me) simply want to be met with challenge equivelent to character capability, and have to work for it but our characters and items should not be equal to that of the foe, more that the foe should pose it's own unique challange that creates enough difference that it should require coordinated effort to pass...

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!' When we learned to ride bicycles, was it not really hard to understand the balance part of being on the bike pedaling? Once we mastered that - we started jumping curbs, riding hills, and all other sort of adventurous things. inside this game.... the enemy are of differing intelligence, differing challenges, each character enemy monster has a unique quality that demands the party work together to pass... somethings are meant to be class specific challenges. It's upto the people playing to conquer those things in accordance with the law set within said adventure... the whole debate is the adventures are set-up with predetermined settings that do not vary, so a 5th life TR plays the same elite a first life character.... yes , the 5th life TR is not met with enough challenge then...

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.
I'm glad that one of you actually asked. I hope the community response provides enough constructive feed-back to create a desire to structure things with more group/individual quest entry examination.... the group should be challenged according to group player capability....

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Quoting myself from elsewhere (a totally Newbie point of view) :


I'm suspicious that the higher the level, the less is possible to do solo - it's to me as if they were nudging / gently forcing me into going into a group at higher levels.

I don't know if that's a design decision and/or really their agenda, but … it's just my subjective perception.

And maybe it's just "common bahaviour" ? Like … as if it was expcted to form groups at higher levels ? "Everyone does it so !" ?


I do know that MMOs are "social games", but I'd also like to see quests or -gasp! - even Raids which can be done solo.

Now, Raids - Solo ? you'd ask. How would this be possible ? And : Wouldn't that be a breach of the definition of the term "Raid" ?

I'd say : Invention. We do not need to stick to certain formulas. Why not trying out something new ?

Anyway, I'd like to see even rather "normal" quests for high levels. Plain normal, only with increased difficulty.

And I'd like to see more "puzzle" quests as well. With the player's skill being the one that is important. But that is a different story altogether.

To better understand my point of view I must say that my character is now in the middle of level 8 and I did everything solo (only F2P, except Tangleroot Gorge & The Catacombs) - except The Pit, where I had to retreat.

[Ungood]

Big Note here: And this is one thing that has annoyed me though all their tweaking and tinkering of raids, because by some unforeseen force moving the dev's actions so that a 14th level raid has to be "fun" for a level 20 now days for reasons that I will never understand.

But Letts get real here MadFloyd, If you are going to buckle and tumble like a house of cards and make every raid a challenge for 20's, because they are making a fuss that they rushed up to cap and now need to have their fun, at least have the decency to remove Bravery effects from raids.

Really, to even put that into raids, knowing how much you borked them, was a bad call from the outset.

[gloopygloop]

Big Note here: And this is one thing that has annoyed me though all their tweaking and tinkering of raids, because by some unforeseen force moving the dev's actions so that a 14th level raid has to be "fun" for a level 20 now days for reasons that I will never understand.

Probably because people tend to be level 14 for only a few days while they tend to stay at 20 for weeks or months at a time.

Check out the who tab and see how many level 14 characters there are. Then look at how many level 20 characters there are.

[dotHackSign]

This is a difficult question to answer... the differences between first life and TR'd characters are almost night and day. There are also many other things that influence difficulty now like Guilds and guild ships. The difference here is huge. If I'm a new character and I'm part of a guild with access to all kinds of guild buffs, then I am immediately more powerful than those without. If the higher level members of the guild give me cast off equipment then my advantage jumps again. If experienced members of the guild help me though quests or 'guild only' raids, then I gain another advantage. The Auction house is another factor, how much more difficult with the game be if all items were bound to account and there was no auction house? If a character does not have the money for the auction house this becomes another large disadvantage because the equipment that normally drops in the quests is typically vastly inferior to what you can pickup in 10 mins at the auction house IF you have the cash. I think the new player with no guild and no money is going to have a very difficult time competing with those who have access to these things. These benefits skew the perspectives of even the first life players as far as difficulty, let alone the experienced player.

That said, I think the shift in the game over the past few years that I've been playing has been a shift toward higher hit points mobs and bosses against an ever shifting class balance that prefers specific specialized builds and equipment. We have seen hit points and damage increase while things like curses and blindness put on timers so they are more of an annoyance than a threat. We see the same on the opposite side of the fence with vorpal weapons being nerfed. It seems that the game is pushing more and more toward a hit point grind and therefore a equipment grind than a game with a wider variety of risks an situations that characters must be prepared for. Perhaps I'm old school but, I'd prefer to have the curses that must be removed, the blindness or disease that must be cured, the real vorpal strikes, and no timer on being turned to stone, than sit locked in a damage versus hit point battle with some over inflated red label for 10 minutes while my weapon becomes worn from a single fight, the caster has gone through several mana pots and a cleric has basically set up a HP IV for us.

In short, the game is becoming more difficult and more of a grind in the encounters if not for the equipment. More importantly, it is loosing depth. To me this is the larger issue. Do away with some timers, bring back vorpal, add deadly poisons on both sides. I would say scrap mana pots but that would get me lynched. <end of ramble>

[gelgoog]

The difficulty of DDO is a bit flawed at the moment.

A good example of difficulty/time/reward/xp is the level 7 mission Tear of Dhakkan.

At level there is a slim chance of failure on Normal if you solo/hireling.
At level there is a very slim chance of failure on Normal if in a group.

At level there is some chance of failure on Hard if you solo/hireling.
At level there is a slim chance of failure on Hard if in a group.

At level there is decent chance of failure on Elite if you solo/hireling.
At level there is a decent chance of failure on Elite if in a group.

Either way at level you get plenty of chests to loot. Optional quests are many with good xp. Even if you fail at the quest you still walk away with something. The length of the quest is up to the player, Zerg to the end or do the Optionals. End reward is decent for level.

I wish more quests in game felt this way in DDO.

Most missions (85%) on normal in DDO I am able to solo with my melee builds (at lvl) as long as I have a hireling to heal me. I like to see/learn the quests at my pace with decent gear.

As for RAIDs in DDO and Difficulty I can not say for certain. I can only play in short bursts due to RL so pugging a RAID is time consuming and not rewarding to me.

I cannot solo a RAID since I mostly have melee builds and need a pocket hireling with me. RAIDs don’t allow me to bring a hireling.

I have only seen a few RAIDs in my time in Ebberon. I have very few items from raids from all my years of playing even when I was in a great guild (a no longer active guild).

Once I get to level 20 on a character I tend to stop playing them. I hate seeing XP go to “waste” at lvl 20. I know I can never get all the epic gear which is useful for a level 20 (another deterrent). I rather level up another character and enjoy the huge list of quests with gear I have ready to distribute.

A bit Off topic at the end sorry bout that.

/shrug

[Ungood]

Probably because people tend to be level 14 for only a few days while they tend to stay at 20 for weeks or months at a time.

Check out the who tab and see how many level 14 characters there are. Then look at how many level 20 characters there are.

Thanks for supporting my point. Not only it seems are these raids being skewed in their difficulty, finding groups to run them on elite at level is even harder.

Again, Bravery Penalty should removed from raids.

[sirgog]

Thanks for supporting my point. Not only it seems are these raids being skewed in their difficulty, finding groups to run them on elite at level is even harder.

Again, Bravery Penalty should removed from raids.

There is no bravery penalty in the game. There is a totally optional bonus you can achieve if you choose to run elite at-level. If you don't want to run those settings, then you are more than free to level up the way players did before bravery streaks and will not be at any disadvantage. Or you can run, say, Hard VON5 with a 10-13 group or Normal Shroud with a 17-20 and maintain your Elite streak.

Bravery is the ONLY reason at-level elite VON5, Twilight Forge and Reaver really ever get run. Remove the Bravery bonus, and we are back to VON5 elite groups bringing in 14s and 15s because the 10-25% loss of base XP is more than offset by the speedier completion. And then we are back to 'why should I spend 40 minutes in VON5 for 20k XP when I can get more doing Wiz-King runs #10, 11 and 12 - this would be the absolute death of at-level raiding. I'd bet there's a lot more '16 down' elite Reavers now than there were '17 down' elite Reavers pre-U11.

The Subterrane raids are the only raids pre-20s often run that you cannot 'cheat' the bonus on by having overlevel toons. But by this stage of levelling, elite streakers have usually fallen back to their Hard streak as XP/min is much better that way. Unless they have something to prove, in which case they should be running the Sub-T raids on Elite.

[sirgog]

i realize many players ditch their characters around level 12
so, somehow level 12 is the hard point...

quests start easy and become harder... till the point of reaching a brick...
then from level 14 to 17 they are "easy again" and you can reach lvl 20 doing shroud or some inspired quartier which give less xp, are more harder and "boring" for the inflated monsters hp but still doable...


probably the problem around lvl 12 is that quests lvl 8-9-10 are too hard, or raids...

von series is the most "easy" despite having a regenerating troll with perma lock + ally who regenerate and heal that makes groups with low dps awful

von 2 has been modified and now despite beholder presence is more doable

von 3 is doable... the marut at end may be a problem but it seems his regeneration rate is worse than von 1 sidekick troll shaman

von 4 is doable

von 5 should be split from von 6 (and adq1 from adq2)
------------------

threnal chain should be reworked a bit...

low xp, boring quests... (funny when you clear the path to reach the guy suddenly monsters repops and he can't simply cast a ddoor... but has masochistic suicidal tendencies to just get killed and make you fail and waste time)

also the fight in the library with coyle could be improved a bit... giving coyle at least the prowless and skill of an hireling... (like those guys in standing your ground in the tavern of sharn syndicate.. they do their part)
if coyle could have some defensive spells to survive better, boost the party that could help making the quest less frustrating.

compare also rewards of delera to those of threnal and based on that comparison boost reward of threnal to put them on pair with delera's... why i always see more lfm of deleras instead of threnal ?

cause threnal needs a rework ! (as you did with gladewatch defence lvl 6 free quest, you made it less frustrating btw if you can make it more as the lvl 19 shavarath quest... a quest long 10min max but with strong waves of monsters...)

The thing with 8-12 is that much of that content was designed when the level cap was 10, had been 10 for a while, and so was designed to be challenging for veteran players. The Devs did not hold back at all - VON3, Dreams of Insanity and Invaders in particular are just full of rooms that were designed to wipe parties. Rednamed Beholders with other minions before Silver Flame necklaces, spammed Dispels alongside Ice Flensers and Fire Reavers, etc.

A while back Waterworks was raised in level to clarify to players that it was harder than its level indicates. This really should be done to the pre-Desert level 10-ish content. Normal Dreams of Insanity will slaughter players that trounce Elite Trial by Fire. IMO Dreams would make a perfect level 14 or 15 'Extreme Challenge' quest with no further changes. The whole VON chain as well - just because us veterans have found approaches to easily speedrun a quest like VON3 doesn't mean it it not difficult. We just metagame around our extensive prior knowledge of the quest to trivialise difficult encounters.

[Ungood]

There is no bravery penalty in the game.

Sure there is, if I do a raid on normal it breaks my streak. And since these raids have all be jacked up on "I'm 20th level I should be Catered to", Steroids, Turbine should Remove that Penalty.


this would be the absolute death of at-level raiding.

I see you missed the memo. At level raiding was killed a long time ago when all the 20th level players started making a fuss they should still be challenged by a 14th level raid.

Make the raids back to the level appropriate, sure, but now that Turbine bucked like a wet magic card, they should remove the Bravery Penalty from Raids.

[sirgog]

Sure there is, if I do a raid on normal it breaks my streak. And since these raids have all be jacked up I'm 20th level I should be Catered to, Steroids, Turbine should Remove that Penalty.

And you still end up with more XP than you would have had before the bravery bonus came in, and except for VON6, you will have more total XP after rebuilding your streak than you would have if you never broke it.

I see a LOT of VON5 elite at-level runs now. Likewise Reaver (less of them because Crucible is so hard on Elite). Pre-U11 you never saw these happen unless it was a forum-organised special event.

Removing Bravery would make sure that we went back to those days. Hell I remember how hard it was to get a group to do the Titan pre-raid elite for favor - it took me 10 or so tries to get a group for that. Now I see 11-13 LFMs up around once a week.

[Ungood]

And you still end up with more XP than you would have had before the bravery bonus came in, and except for VON6, you will have more total XP after rebuilding your streak than you would have if you never broke it.

Umm. I see you missed my point totally. I am not asking that Bravery Bonus be removed, I am demanding that raids not break streak.

I am all for them adding to the streak. In fact, more power to people who can do them at level. but when you have raids, like VoN6 that have been dorked with too infinity to placate capped toons they should not break the streak of the players who are trying to do them at level and realizing they can't because. oh right, they have been dorked with!

Like VoN6 for example. Yah, I get it, VoN6 needs to fun for 20's who need to farm it for loot, but right now, at level, when I am trying to do this raid, have it so if we end up doing this raid on hard or even normal, just to get it done, it does not shaft our current streak.

It's a pretty simple idea, again: Have Raids not break streak.

Having them add to streak is fine.:p

[sweez]

Like VoN6 for example. Yah, I get it, VoN6 needs to fun for 20's who need to farm it for loot, but right now, at level, when I am trying to do this raid, have it so if we end up doing this raid on hard or even normal, just to get it done, it does not shaft our current streak.

Huh, are you saying that elite von6 caters to level 20 toons difficulty-wise? :confused: Elite Shroud, sure, elite Abbot, definitely, but cmon, von6?

[Ungood]

Huh, are you saying that elite von6 caters to level 20 toons difficulty-wise? :confused: Elite Shroud, sure, elite Abbot, definitely, but cmon, von6?

Don't take my word for it, Go try yourself with at level toons. Show me the screen shot.

[sirgog]

Don't take my word for it, Go try yourself with at level toons. Show me the screen shot.

Didn't screenshot it last life as I didn't feel a 10-12 elite VON6 was an accomplishment.

Velah does hit insanely hard, but she dies so fast that you can just manadump heal through it. Sub 20k HP too, so if you have a caster with Quicken or a ranger with Manyshot or an Arti with Endless Fullisade they can knock off half her HP solo. VON4 elite was much more difficult than VON6 even though the death count in VON6 was not low.

[sweez]

Don't take my word for it, Go try yourself with at level toons. Show me the screen shot.

Um, I did complete an elite von5-6 run about 2 months ago, full BB applied. She lived through 1 breath afaik, and we 11-manned it after someone dropped because he was dying in the traps in von5 repeatedly and came to the conclusion that elite von5 at level is 'impossible'. I didn't take a screenshot because if someone told me at that time that it was an accomplishment worth of screenshoting, I'd have LOL'd. Any decently geared level 12 can solo a base (gimps can guard home base :p), and on Velah just choose as many 'tanks' as you have healers and single heal them while everyone else takes pot-shots.

Anyway, any 20 should be able to solo elite von6 without much issue were it not for the need to drop pillars simultaneously. If you can't 3-man it with level 20 toons, re-roll is in order :p

[Ungood]

I didn't take a screenshot because if someone told me at that time that it was an accomplishment worth of screenshoting, I'd have LOL'd. Any decently geared level 12 can solo a base (gimps can guard home base :p), and on Velah just choose as many 'tanks' as you have healers and single heal them while everyone else takes pot-shots.

Anyway, any 20 should be able to solo elite von6 without much issue were it not for the need to drop pillars simultaneously. If you can't 3-man it with level 20 toons, re-roll is in order :p

Feel free to do it again then, if you are as good as you seem to come across, it should be a small matter for you to get to 12th again, while you are at going up the level again add Reavers Fate @ 16th, Shroud at 19th, Abbot at 19th, as I would like to see this.

However, because unlike some people who feel that they are right no matter what, I will say, if provide this to me, I'll admit that the problem is on my end. Otherwise, meh. Words, everyone has them.

Raids should not break streak.

[Ungood]

Didn't screenshot it last life as I didn't feel a 10-12 elite VON6 was an accomplishment.

I have to say, I hear this soo much on the forums. And to be honest Sirgog, you are as far as I know, a highly skilled player, who has done quite a bit in the game, so I did not quite expect this from you.

But it seems that almost every discussion, at some point when I try to express that something is hard, or over the top, I get a response like "Oh that is easy, I did that at half your level, naked, with only a festival twig as a weapon, blah, blah, blah"

...and yet the second I ask them for a screen shot. I get some kind of canned response, almost always "Well I did not think it was screen shot worthy" or something along those lines.

Not trying to be rude here, but you and I know, that "Screen Shot or didn't happen" is a cultural standard in the gaming world for a reason, and a well expected and established one at that.

But more then that, this is what gets me a bit, you did not feel that perhaps your first time getting Bravery off Veliah, was screenshot worthy? Really?

Different worlds I suppose, I take screenshots when I pull good loot.

[sweez]

Feel free to do it again then, if you are as good as you seem to come across, it should be a small matter for you to get to 12th again, while you are at going up the level again add Reavers Fate @ 16th, Shroud at 19th, Abbot at 19th, as I would like to see this.

However, because unlike some people who feel that they are right no matter what, I will say, if provide this to me, I'll admit that the problem is on my end. Otherwise, meh. Words, everyone has them.

Raids should not break streak.

I'm not that good lol, I wasn't leading that run, I'm "good" enough to contribute in an elite von5-6 run, as is anyone who cares about being self-sufficient and listens to instructions. I'll ask the guy who lead that run if he has a screenie since you seem to be so hell-bent on it lol.

And yeah I also did an elite 14-16 reaver a few weeks back, I even tanked him on my dark monk that at that time had maybe 350ish HP. No screenie unfortunately :(

Funny thing is, without your insane hyperboles, I kinda agree with you - elite shroud or elite abbot indeed require a group of well-geared well-organized 20s that know those quests very well, and are willing to spend resources to have a good chance of completion (in my experience, others' experience may vary). Elite von6 and elite reaver should be absolutely steam-rolled by a couple of geared 20s and are absolutely doable at-level.

I also hope you don't take this personally, but really, do you go around screen-shotting everything you do? I'm sorry but that seems like a gigantic waste of time to me, and a proof that you have a bone to pick lol.

[Ungood]

I'm not that good lol, I wasn't leading that run, I'm "good" enough to contribute in an elite von5-6 run, as is anyone who cares about being self-sufficient and listens to instructions. I'll ask the guy who lead that run if he has a screenie since you seem to be so hell-bent on it lol.

A screen shot is a small matter, a simple trivial and easily providable means of proof. You would think people would be more apt to take them, especially when they want to come to a forum and make claims of what they have done.

"Oh I did That, yes, it was easy, no, I can't prove it" It would seem I have an endearing relationship with discussions that go in that direction, or perhaps it is enduring as it they never seem to go away.


And yeah I also did an elite 14-16 reaver a few weeks back, I even tanked him on my dark monk that at that time had maybe 350ish HP. No screenie unfortunately :(

Funny thing is, without your insane hyperboles, I kinda agree with you - elite shroud or elite abbot indeed require a group of well-geared well-organized 20s that know those quests very well, and are willing to spend resources to have a good chance of completion (in my experience, others' experience may vary). Elite von6 and elite reaver should be absolutely steam-rolled by a couple of geared 20s and are absolutely doable at-level.

I also hope you don't take this personally, but really, do you go around screen-shotting everything you do? I'm sorry but that seems like a gigantic waste of time to me, and a proof that you have a bone to pick lol.

I take screenshots of anything that strikes my fancy, either good or bad. From hilarious defeats to just cool images. Part of the fun of the game is also having a scrap book of what you did right, and what you did wrong, and in some cases, who you did it with.

Equally so, I have no bone pick, I made a claim, and in return, I have had others make counter claims. Since I find those claims, based on my personal experience of the game less then believable, I made a request proof.

You would think, people would be spamming me with a screenie to shut me down after asking for such an easy means to do so.

Especially when they start off by telling me how easy it is to begin with.

You would think at least...

[mikesharpshooter]

on cannith (server) there are no more lfm on normal, all on elite
usually new gamers will not run elite and do not want lead a group, just want have fun and learn
bravery bonus is killing the game (imho)

[Fensen]

My opinion is, of course, based on my usual play style, which is running with just a hireling 90% of the time. I enjoy running with groups when I do, but most of the time I just want to log on and play without waiting, or I do not want to be rude and have a group suffer from possible interruptions which may occur (think young children). From that standpoint, I generally find the game difficulty fair enough, at least up through level 15 quests. I really like the Vale quests, but find they are over powered for solo play. IQ, Lord of Eyes series seem ok for solo work on normal. Amrath...no way. I would like to see normal difficulty made a little more amenable to a solo experience on these higher end quests. For those who group up more often or want the extra challenge, keep the hard and elite difficulties where they are, but give those who have a more casual play expectation a little more to work with at the high end.

[ArcaneMelee]

...
I take screenshots of anything that strikes my fancy, either good or bad. From hilarious defeats to just cool images. Part of the fun of the game is also having a scrap book of what you did right, and what you did wrong, and in some cases, who you did it with.
...

I do this as well - I even keep them after I uninstall DDO in an attempt to break free of the addiction, and that's probably not such a hot idea. Going through them awakens the monster again :D

Ungood, I'm guessing that you PUG a lot of your raids, instead of running in a mostly static/guild? The reason I ask is that I've noticed the same kind of behavior when PUGging with the general population. For quite a while, I had given up on VON completely until I had gotten to level 20 and was either running it way over level or doing VoN5 normal/VoN6 epic.

Nothing like spending an hour+ only to wipe at the Knight, or maybe getting past him only to have coordination issues dropping the pillars. And then when half the group quits in disgust, finding out that the other half aren't quite as prepared for soloing a base as you are.

Yeah, static groups vs. true PUGs are wildly different beasts.

[Caliban]

Umm. I see you missed my point totally. I am not asking that Bravery Bonus be removed, I am demanding that raids not break streak.

I am all for them adding to the streak. In fact, more power to people who can do them at level. but when you have raids, like VoN6 that have been dorked with too infinity to placate capped toons they should not break the streak of the players who are trying to do them at level and realizing they can't because. oh right, they have been dorked with!

Like VoN6 for example. Yah, I get it, VoN6 needs to fun for 20's who need to farm it for loot, but right now, at level, when I am trying to do this raid, have it so if we end up doing this raid on hard or even normal, just to get it done, it does not shaft our current streak.

It's a pretty simple idea, again: Have Raids not break streak.

Having them add to streak is fine.:p

Eh, just make sure that you do the raid with someone 4+ levels over the base level of the raid and it won't affect your streak one way or the other. It's pretty easy to find VON6, DQ2, and Reaver raids loaded with lvl 18+ characters. :p

Raids are for loot, not XP.

[Ungood]

Raids are for loot, not XP.

This is exactly why Raids should not break streak!

[hewimeddel]

I have a wildly different suggestion for the difficulty setting:

Instead of making the choice a "per adventure"-setting, it could be a "per character"-setting. A player, who plays on "normal" would interact with the monsters normaly, while a charakter who picks "Elite" would make only half the damage and receive double damage, the mobs would have a higher resistance against his spells and so on.
Of course, this changes in the numbers should not be visible to the player, only the effect: tougher monsters for tougher settings, but also better rewards.

This way Casual-players could join in a group with Elite-players easily and groups could be filled much faster.

bye
hewi

[Sarisa]

Specifically about VoN6 elite at "bravery" level:

It's at a level where divines have very poor Mass Cure spells. Keeping up a group even with Empower Heal, Empower, and Quicken on for the two mass cures they have will drain even a well equipped (meaning Magi+Greensteel) Cleric of SP in a hurry. Velah does 100-120 per HIT to the entire group on elite. That's almost epic Velah type damage, but at level you have Mass Cures doing 50-80 per cast on the average player and costing ~80SP.

Quicken is not always taken by level 12, often kept until 15. Quicken is sadly pretty much necessary due to the 50-80 damage Wing Buffets Velah does to the "back" group. Wing Buffet now hits behind the rock, where prior to u11, it did not.

Arcanes do not have the really good damage spells at this level. Same type persistent AoE's don't work well together. The best single target spell available (Disintegrate) is practically useless due to Velah's sky high Fort save.

The bases themselves can be difficult due to the high damage to non-evasives from any uncontrolled trash. The high (40 or 50) piercing DR of the pillars make them difficult for many to deal with. Many at-level runs do not have a Bard, and many at-level PUG runs do not understand the concept of Fascinate even when explained in the cases where you do have a Bard.

The times I have succeeded at an elite-streak VoN6 have been done with multiple healers each choosing a "hero" melee with good DPS and high HP and just worrying about keeping them up with the Heal spell. Every one else is pretty much on their own.

If you manage to have an "Inferno" happen, Velah's insane regen will heal her completely while everyone is hiding behind the rock.

VoN5 is definitely manageable, if you can deal with the traps. VoN6 is definitely overtuned at level.

[Kmnh]

snip

Please don't tune elite raids to newbie leveling parties. VoN 6 isn't even the hardest quest to do on elite at its level. Threnal and the restless isles are good to tune down TR egos :)

[Candela90]

Well besides LoB/MA I think game is balance pretty well.

Normal/hard LoB take some practise but for me now normal is like a walk inm sunny park.
But difference between hard - elite and epic (taking into consideration LoB alone is 19-20 lvl quest) is def. too big.
And the only thing that shrine removal do, is that I and other mana-owners have to stay in one place with archers and torc/conc opps... Taking like 20 mins. Sooo boring.

[sweez]

Specifically about VoN6 elite at "bravery" level:

It's at a level where divines have very poor Mass Cure spells. Keeping up a group even with Empower Heal, Empower, and Quicken on for the two mass cures they have will drain even a well equipped (meaning Magi+Greensteel) Cleric of SP in a hurry. Velah does 100-120 per HIT to the entire group on elite. That's almost epic Velah type damage, but at level you have Mass Cures doing 50-80 per cast on the average player and costing ~80SP.

If you're mass curing people on Velah, you're doing it wrong. Assign as many 'tanks' (highest DPS people) as you have healing capable toons (clerics, fvs, bards, artis) on Velah, single heal them, and have other people take pot-shots.



Arcanes do not have the really good damage spells at this level. Same type persistent AoE's don't work well together. The best single target spell available (Disintegrate) is practically useless due to Velah's sky high Fort save.

This is just incorrect. Best single target spells available are Eladar's electric surge and Niac's biting cold, and they're available to wizards from level 9, and to sorcs from level 10. At 12, they'll also have Ball lightning, Otiluke's sphere/Chain lightning (not exactly single-target spells but they work well as nukes, as long as you use +75% clickies which are easily craftable), and tier 2 savant SLAs in case they're sorcs.


The bases themselves can be difficult due to the high damage to non-evasives from any uncontrolled trash. The high (40 or 50) piercing DR of the pillars make them difficult for many to deal with. Many at-level runs do not have a Bard, and many at-level PUG runs do not understand the concept of Fascinate even when explained in the cases where you do have a Bard.

Bards are the big easy button of von6, they're not 'needed' even on epic. As long as you have 3 geared and prepared people, all you need to do smooth bases is 9 people that listen, and an authoritative leader. If people are being stupid, that has nothing to do with game difficulty (even yet, on elite they should be punished for being stupid, they should get their asses kicked :p).


The times I have succeeded at an elite-streak VoN6 have been done with multiple healers each choosing a "hero" melee with good DPS and high HP and just worrying about keeping them up with the Heal spell. Every one else is pretty much on their own.

Well there you go. :)


If you manage to have an "Inferno" happen, Velah's insane regen will heal her completely while everyone is hiding behind the rock.

Um, this is incorrect, she doesn't regen as fast, and at most you should see 1 fire breath. Not to mention a GS-geared TR can take 1/3 of her health down in one haste boost anyway. If you're running the group with first-life first timers I can see how it can get ugly, but balancing elite raid content in a six year old game should not cater to first-timers.

[grodon9999]

Well besides LoB/MA I think game is balance pretty well.

Normal/hard LoB take some practise but for me now normal is like a walk inm sunny park.
But difference between hard - elite and epic (taking into consideration LoB alone is 19-20 lvl quest) is def. too big.
And the only thing that shrine removal do, is that I and other mana-owners have to stay in one place with archers and torc/conc opps... Taking like 20 mins. Sooo boring.

Hard LOB feels about right to me.

Normal might be a little too rough for casual players who just want to see how the story ends. I mean experienced people blow through it like it's nothing now, but it's probably at bit much compared to the other level 20 raid on normal.

Epic is simply a contest of kiting mobs and tossing hjeal scrolls, and i expect more from the developers than what was given to us with that. The lack of the shrines is just silly as it's circumventable if you feel like wasting a ton of time torcing up.

eChrono is a much better raid. Multiple parts, great story (and loot), and a boss that can be tanked with skill and not just absorb damage and yell "hjeal meh!!!" I'm bringing this up as it's the only other epic raid that was never re-hashed content.

[voodoogroves]

Hard LOB feels about right to me.

Normal might be a little too rough for casual players who just want to see how the story ends. I mean experienced people blow through it like it's nothing now, but it's probably at bit much compared to the other level 20 raid on normal.

Epic is simply a contest of kiting mobs and tossing hjeal scrolls, and i expect more from the developers than what was given to us with that. The lack of the shrines is just silly as it's circumventable if you feel like wasting a ton of time torcing up.

eChrono is a much better raid. Multiple parts, great story (and loot), and a boss that can be tanked with skill and not just absorb damage and yell "hjeal meh!!!" I'm bringing this up as it's the only other epic raid that was never re-hashed content.

As players gear better and get more options in their enhancements, etc. the new content needs to keep up.

I still don't think lots of the old content needs reworking. I got owned on F2P quests when I started playing ... the same ones I'm taking first life toons through on a Bravery Streak.

Mostly I'm sure it's gear, but there's a bit of player skill in there too. I still see some LFMs popping up for folks who are over-level just completing on normal.


I'm a fan of epics with gateway points ... like Crateos and the mini-bosses in eChrono (and the guardian scorps in Claw in some ways). I wish there were a few more as those are the points that really encourage group play. I'm sure some uber people solo all of them, but I'm not concerned about what the top handful of players do.

[voodoogroves]

Specifically about VoN6 elite at "bravery" level:

It's at a level where divines have very poor Mass Cure spells. Keeping up a group even with Empower Heal, Empower, and Quicken on for the two mass cures they have will drain even a well equipped (meaning Magi+Greensteel) Cleric of SP in a hurry. Velah does 100-120 per HIT to the entire group on elite. That's almost epic Velah type damage, but at level you have Mass Cures doing 50-80 per cast on the average player and costing ~80SP.

Quicken is not always taken by level 12, often kept until 15. Quicken is sadly pretty much necessary due to the 50-80 damage Wing Buffets Velah does to the "back" group. Wing Buffet now hits behind the rock, where prior to u11, it did not.

Arcanes do not have the really good damage spells at this level. Same type persistent AoE's don't work well together. The best single target spell available (Disintegrate) is practically useless due to Velah's sky high Fort save.

The bases themselves can be difficult due to the high damage to non-evasives from any uncontrolled trash. The high (40 or 50) piercing DR of the pillars make them difficult for many to deal with. Many at-level runs do not have a Bard, and many at-level PUG runs do not understand the concept of Fascinate even when explained in the cases where you do have a Bard.

The times I have succeeded at an elite-streak VoN6 have been done with multiple healers each choosing a "hero" melee with good DPS and high HP and just worrying about keeping them up with the Heal spell. Every one else is pretty much on their own.

If you manage to have an "Inferno" happen, Velah's insane regen will heal her completely while everyone is hiding behind the rock.

VoN5 is definitely manageable, if you can deal with the traps. VoN6 is definitely overtuned at level.

You know, we did this yesterday and I totally forgot to screenshot it.

At level VON5/6 elite bravery streak (so max level 12). Only maybe 8 TRs in the group.

VON5: 3 deaths ... 1 rogue twice in the traps and one cleric who fell through the bridge (love that bug) on the way to the final boss and into the lava below and roasted.

VON6: Split and managed bases; no deaths until Velah. No bard for the bases, we just killed and prepped. Hero'd one guy on the dragon, she breathed twice, everyone else ranged. We had about 4 deaths in part 6 Velah fight.

And I didn't screenshot it.


I'm not saying it is easy, but with a good set of folks who know the deal, it is definitely doable.


Please don't tune elite raids to newbie leveling parties.
Hard should be a challenge for decently (but not optimally) geared and skilled folks.

Elite should be challenging even for good players with good gear. The unprepared and under-geared should be (and expect to be) destroyed in them.

[grodon9999]

As players gear better and get more options in their enhancements, etc. the new content needs to keep up.

But a level 20 raid should be about as tough as another level 20 raid. My biggest peeve with this game is the lack of consistency regarding that.

it's why we have different levels in the first place.

As mentioned the Lordsmarch elites are significantly harder than the HG walkups that are a higher level, the Shroud blade make it harder than VOD which is higher level, etc . . .

Normal LOB is much harder than Normal TOD which is the other level 20 raid, it shouldn't be like that, I don't care if one came out later than the other. Make it a level 22 raid with the appropriate trash loot (and +4 tomes) or scale it's difficulty (nerf it) to what the other level 20 raid is. The LOB base to-hit is too high on normal, same for many of the trash mobs, and he hits too hard on all difficulties.




I still don't think lots of the old content needs reworking. I got owned on F2P quests when I started playing ... the same ones I'm taking first life toons through on a Bravery Streak.

New players have normal and casual, twinked TRs have elite.



Mostly I'm sure it's gear, but there's a bit of player skill in there too. I still see some LFMs popping up for folks who are over-level just completing on normal.

Gear, ship-buffs (beyond ubber at low levels, the elemental resistances really should scale with your level), and meta-gaming. When you know where everything is and exactly how to get there you can turn off your brain and just zerg.



I'm a fan of epics with gateway points ... like Crateos and the mini-bosses in eChrono (and the guardian scorps in Claw in some ways). I wish there were a few more as those are the points that really encourage group play. I'm sure some uber people solo all of them, but I'm not concerned about what the top handful of players do.

I'm not sure what this has to do with a reply to my post.

[voodoogroves]

But a level 20 raid should be about as tough as another level 20 raid. My biggest peeve with this game is the lack of consistency regarding that.

it's why we have different levels in the first place.

As mentioned the Lordsmarch elites are significantly harder than the HG walkups that are a higher level, the Shroud blade make it harder than VOD which is higher level, etc . . .

Yeah but as more gear gets introduced things are going to creep. How much re-adjustment should they do? That's the question.

Or start calling LoB "Level 21" ... etc.


Gear, ship-buffs (beyond ubber at low levels, the elemental resistances really should scale with your level), and meta-gaming. When you know where everything is and exactly how to get there you can turn off your brain and just zerg.
Our boat just has 20s, but that's enough to trivialize a great deal of content.





I'm not sure what this has to do with a reply to my post.
Not all epics are kite and heal through it; and the quests that have different mechanics are more interesting then those where you just kite or beat on a sack of HP.

Unless you were more thinking of the trash around the bosses in some of the raids, etc. Those I agree are pointless and annoying. It's almost like a player-tax ... you complete this raid with X of the 12 people because 12-X people are simply set aside for boring (but essential) trash control.

[grodon9999]

Yeah but as more gear gets introduced things are going to creep. How much re-adjustment should they do? That's the question.

Or start calling LoB "Level 21" ... etc.

I don't like re-balancing content for us mooks who have all the gear because it's not fair to newer people who don't have it yet.

If Tower is a level 20 raid there is no reason to not just make LOB a level 21 raid and give the appropriate loot in the chests, including tomes.





Not all epics are kite and heal through it; and the quests that have different mechanics are more interesting then those where you just kite or beat on a sack of HP.

Unless you were more thinking of the trash around the bosses in some of the raids, etc. Those I agree are pointless and annoying. It's almost like a player-tax ... you complete this raid with X of the 12 people because 12-X people are simply set aside for boring (but essential) trash control.

Ahh, got it.

MOST epics aren't "scroll and kite" and that's a good thing. ELOB is and I'd like it not to be or at least not have any other raids that are like that. Don't get me wrong there's some cool stuff to it but mostly it's an obnoxiously boring war of attrition.

I bring up eChrono of an example of a good Epic boss. he has devastating attacks that can be avoided with player skill, that's the best way to handle it. He can be tanked on a 550 HP toon if the player knows what he's doing. The ELOB is just absorb damage, hjeal, abosrb damage, heal, get too many mournlands procs (possibly the silliest mechanic in the game as all it adds is boring time spent trying o get rid of it), switch tanks, rinse and repeat. I expect more from the devs than that.

Sure it takes some skill to tank the ELOB, but it's really just knowing when to jump in the water and yell "hjeal meh!!"

[voodoogroves]

If Tower is a level 20 raid there is no reason to not just make LOB a level 21 raid and give the appropriate loot in the chests, including tomes.

Totally on board with this. Call the next one Level 23, whatever. Make it one louder. We can still cap at 20; after that it is all gear right?

In fact, can we call most of house D and P level 20? Can we call Spies and Small Problem 21? Fens 20 maybe, 21 for Into the Deep?

Call the deserts 21 or 22?



Ahh, got it.

MOST epics aren't "scroll and kite" and that's a good thing. ELOB is and I'd like it not to be or at least not have any other raids that are like that. Don't get me wrong there's some cool stuff to it but mostly it's an obnoxiously boring war of attrition.

I bring up eChrono of an example of a good Epic boss. he has devastating attacks that can be avoided with player skill, that's the best way to handle it. He can be tanked on a 550 HP toon if the player knows what he's doing. The ELOB is just absorb damage, hjeal, abosrb damage, heal, get too many mournlands procs (possibly the silliest mechanic in the game as all it adds is boring time spent trying o get rid of it), switch tanks, rinse and repeat. I expect more from the devs than that.

Sure it takes some skill to tank the ELOB, but it's really just knowing when to jump in the water and yell "hjeal meh!!"

What kills me is if there's some sort of mechanic we're missing on these. Some little nugget the devs dropped somewhere "Duh you newbs casting bless or greater restoration removes that" where we just have missed it so have devolved to the most boring strategy that works.

[Aashrym]

Um, this is incorrect, she doesn't regen as fast, and at most you should see 1 fire breath. Not to mention a GS-geared TR can take 1/3 of her health down in one haste boost anyway. If you're running the group with first-life first timers I can see how it can get ugly, but balancing elite raid content in a six year old game should not cater to first-timers.

No game should balance a quest based on gear acquired at much higher levels than the quest. By the time the character has the greensteel items and run Shroud several times he would be far over level; before he even started shroud. Balanced by TR's only is a horrible approach.

It doesn't need to be balanced around first timers but balancing it for over-geared TR'd characters is so far on the opposite end of that spectrum that it almost defies description.

[Ungood]

I don't like re-balancing content for us mooks who have all the gear because it's not fair to newer people who don't have it yet.

You know. you are right.

And I would love for Turbine to give players that have it all, something more to do then just run epics and rip though lower level content.

That is why a while back I proposed this idea of how to add Higher Level Content (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=330959), without breaking the current game.

I would like it of they gave players more options then Epic or TR.

And again, Raids Should Not Break Streak.

[dumbbunny]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

order of issues:
ac needs to matter again and it needs to be attainable for a marginal sacrafice on most toons. long gone are the days when a 40 ac made at least a marginal difference in trash fights and i personally feel that at least a 70 ac should matter throughout the standard trash fights all the way through epic. maybe the line should be 80 but it needs to be attainable for a marginal sacrafice so it is a trade off not just gimping a toon.

intimitanks lose out on their most powerful feature:shield blocking. yes the 25% reduction is a step in the right direction however 25% is only so so. also it should be considered that adding a defensive pre should up this percentage by maybe 5% per tier of the pre. yes the active blocking gets a buff but not that many people can active block all the time(actually if you always want to have agro no one can any more)

Ranger needs some serious love. if you dont believe me look around how many dps rangers do you see? and no ranged rangers do not count as dps rangers they are nitch role toons and to be honest pure fighter with a sorc past life makes a better ranged dps toon anyway.

pally needs a bit of love. the defensive pre is nice but their dps pre needs a reduced effect but something vs all evil monsters in my opinion even if its only 1d6 each for tier 2 and 3 it would be a huge help. yes they are the best damage in the game versus evil outsiders but once you leave that realm they are fairly low dps. the only melee class they are probably better than is ranger.

melee dps needs to be put back on par with sorcs. they now have access to cheap dps effects and thus their sp goes a lot farther than it used to. its not typical for a sorc to not only out dps a melee but to also outlast fighters and even some barbarians in their high dps duration(basicly till sp runs out)

and finally as much as it pains me to say it i feel monk is overpowered compared to other classes. the earth stance changes made them into almost ideal tanks only slightly worse in the dr% and hate bonus than the fighter and pally tank bonuses. it is too much or the other classes need a boost. yes it is not as effective does not grant nearly as many hp and comes with some small downside however the fighter/pally pres are much much more expensive to get to. personally i think monk should be left alone except maybe fire stance and possibly a slight bonus to wind stance and the other classes buffed.

to address the catering to the uber player i feel it is marginally true however in any mmo there is a cycle of gear gathering. you must achieve a certain level of gear in order to go for the top end gear and completely removing this is going to be impossible(you cant complete epic lob with korthos starter gear nor should you be able to) however i feel some situations should at least be eased up like ac gear and maybe clerics should get some love as well as they are often behind fvs though i dont know what a top notch vs top notch comparison would be as i dont play either much.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

I have a wildly different suggestion for the difficulty setting:

Instead of making the choice a "per adventure"-setting, it could be a "per character"-setting. A player, who plays on "normal" would interact with the monsters normaly, while a charakter who picks "Elite" would make only half the damage and receive double damage, the mobs would have a higher resistance against his spells and so on.
Of course, this changes in the numbers should not be visible to the player, only the effect: tougher monsters for tougher settings, but also better rewards.

This way Casual-players could join in a group with Elite-players easily and groups could be filled much faster.

bye
hewi

This sounds interesting, but ould be difficult to implemernt, imho.

Because there would be the need to do "instances" of every monster one encounters in a quest - at least when a group enters the quest.

Because every monster would have to behave differently, depending on who interacts with the monster. This would require imho quite a lot of work from the programmr's side.

The only way I could imagine it right now would be a monster's check (read: a check on the monster's side) about whom the monster is attacking : The actual damage should be ... increased or decreased depending on the level of the char/toon the monster hits.


Besides, what I noticed a while ago was tht there is a small "drought" of F2P quests from level 5/6 up. I think, there is a small "hole" there, which can onl be "closed" by bying adventure packs.


As players gear better and get more options in their enhancements, etc. the new content needs to keep up.

Of course.

But the danger is, that middle levels and even Newbies are overlooked in this process.

[parvo]

...A while back Waterworks was raised in level to clarify to players that it was harder than its level indicates. This really should be done to the pre-Desert level 10-ish content. Normal Dreams of Insanity will slaughter players that trounce Elite Trial by Fire. IMO Dreams would make a perfect level 14 or 15 'Extreme Challenge' quest with no further changes. The whole VON chain as well - just because us veterans have found approaches to easily speedrun a quest like VON3 doesn't mean it it not difficult. We just metagame around our extensive prior knowledge of the quest to trivialise difficult encounters.

No! These are the fun quests. In my guild with all our PD restrictions, we recently completed Invaders! elite. We also progressed to the end of Dreams of Insanity hard before retreating. Both were very exciting and fun. If the level is changed higher, they will be boring romps at level. If these are too difficult for bad players, that is what normal and casual difficulty are for.

The game should not be adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can easily complete all elite quests and gain all the bonuses that good, organized and prepared players do.

[BOgre]

I have a wildly different suggestion for the difficulty setting:

Instead of making the choice a "per adventure"-setting, it could be a "per character"-setting. A player, who plays on "normal" would interact with the monsters normaly, while a charakter who picks "Elite" would make only half the damage and receive double damage, the mobs would have a higher resistance against his spells and so on.
Of course, this changes in the numbers should not be visible to the player, only the effect: tougher monsters for tougher settings, but also better rewards.

This way Casual-players could join in a group with Elite-players easily and groups could be filled much faster.

bye
hewi

I'm going to go out on a limb and say impossible. At the very least, completely impractical. Area of effect spells, for one thing, break this right away. What about mobs being hit by multiple players? What about passing of loot inside of chests? Nope. Not doable.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The game should not be adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can easily complete all elite quests and gain all the bonuses that good, organized and prepared players do.

Okay, then the should be adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can get their fun as well and don't need to feel inferior towards good, organizd and well prepared players.

You sound to me as if you were saying that fun should be exclusively restricted to good, well organized and prepared players.

[scoobmx]

What kills me is if there's some sort of mechanic we're missing on these. Some little nugget the devs dropped somewhere "Duh you newbs casting bless or greater restoration removes that" where we just have missed it so have devolved to the most boring strategy that works.

Bless doesn't work, we tried that already. Unyielding sovereignty works, iirc, but few people have that and the cooldown is too long...

Greater restoration doesn't work either.

[nibel]

You sound to me as if you were saying that fun should be exclusively restricted to good, well organized and prepared players.

I hate to say that, but I agree with Parvo.*

Most quests on the game should be toned up on Elite. A lot. Elite should be something that a full party of twinked and/or experienced players should sweat to win. In no way this is "forgetting the casual players" or something like that. Elite should be a difficult setting for people looking for a challenge. Not an easy completion if you know the quest. If you want your easy completion, go casual or normal.

Elite mobs should be set against what a full-twinked first life character can attain. Like: Elite IQ should have mobs with ~30 saves because a twinked first-life level 18 pale master can attain ~40 DC on their spells. Maybe up that to ~35 will, so they expect him to cast Crushing Despair (also an AoE effect) before wailing, or setting a mind fog first.

If he isn't twinked, he should be capable to prevail on IQ with alternate tactics. Like specific mob weakness (let's say, the brainwashed soldiers are really, REALLY vulnerable to charm effects), or cautious pulling, or setting traps, or stealth, or... you got the idea. What matter is: He is just a gear to complete Elite. He can't cover all situations alone. He need a group, and everyone on the group should be (equally) capable. Elite Solo at bravery level should be an impressive achievment by itself.

*No offense, but sometimes Parvo just comments as if everyone should be playing permadeath.

[Kushiel]

Most quests on the game should be toned up on Elite. A lot. Elite should be something that a full party of twinked and/or experienced players should sweat to win. In no way this is "forgetting the casual players" or something like that. Elite should be a difficult setting for people looking for a challenge. Not an easy completion if you know the quest. If you want your easy completion, go casual or normal.

At least not when progressing through those difficulties is tied so closely to opening up additional content and perks of... "playing" a *game* for enjoyment. Include being a long-term paying customer and I'd like to see all sorts of ways to make various sections of what already exists not such a GD PITA to play through on Hard or Elite.

[This being said after an ATDQ run on Hard with a full party of 6 good players of reasonable class distributions... where game mechanics, length and stupidity of dungeon, and the final capabilities/speed/AC/HP of the foe's made it something less than a terrific hour+ of deaths, repair bills, running back to a full boss (and inexplicably alive-again companion djinn and consort). Great folks - stupid game mechanics. Also had a solo Elite run, at level with Elite Bravery Bonus (deathless and with almost all full bonuses) of Raid The Vulkoorim that was, although successful, the preverbial Root Canal.] ... For the ATDQ portion of that story, even on Hard, it probably would have been a lot closer to *fun* to run it solo on a Cleric and avoid all the amazingnly jacked up scaling that happens with a full party. heh

Or provide enough content of differing levels of Elite encounters (beyond roughly 10th level) that enough experience and favor can be achieved by relatively easy, fun, simple play for people who aren't the uber-geared and challenge-seeking.

The thing I will always support, however, is a means for people who want to experience the world via the most difficult trials and trauma-filled ordeals to have a check-box option that lets them do that without impacting the gameplay possibilities of all other Classes/Races/Players. If they want the whole life of their character to be like that, a check at creation would be good.

[parvo]

Okay, then the should be adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can get their fun as well and don't need to feel inferior towards good, organizd and well prepared players.

You sound to me as if you were saying that fun should be exclusively restricted to good, well organized and prepared players.

The game is already adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can have fun. It is called casual and normal difficulty. The bad players are the ones who want to restrict fun. They want the entire game to be easily beaten.

MadF,
Most of this thread is a confirmation of the simple truths. Regardless of how easy you make the game, it will never be easy enough for everyone. Players may scream loudly that the game is too hard, but they will stay and play if it is so. When the game is too easy, they just quietly leave. When it is quiet, that is when you have a problem. Challenge them. Encourage them to struggle against unbeatable odds. It is then, they will feel like heros. It is then you have done your job.

[nibel]

At least not when progressing through those difficulties is tied so closely to opening up additional content and perks of... "playing" a *game* for enjoyment.

You may remember the time when achieving 1750 favor for the 32-pts unlock was something hard to do. Things like silver flame potions and yugoloth potions should be a special reward, not something guarranted to everyone. Some time ago, even the house P buffs were special (before ship buffs destroyed them).

Today, very few things are really special to be considered a "reward" for getting favor. The most rewarding is the free 25 TP for each 100 favor. Changing the difficulty to achieve that rank may add incentive for the devs to rework the rewards.

[Willibold]

Shorter quests at 'end game' may be a possibility. There are sometimes when I log on and just don't have enough time to wait around for a raid group to fill and then run a long quest. This is a little bit discouraging for me at times.

I'm not an uber player, and I like to get in on a game whenever I log on. The quote above describes me too. Please can we have some more short and medium quests. Dont have to be easy (tho sometimes......) just shorter,maybe even designed for solo , but higher lvl play all the same. Thans for even asking the question Mad.

[Zlingerdark]

Shorter quests at 'end game' may be a possibility. There are sometimes when I log on and just don't have enough time to wait around for a raid group to fill and then run a long quest. This is a little bit discouraging for me at times.

I'm not an uber player, and I like to get in on a game whenever I log on. The quote above describes me too. Please can we have some more short and medium quests. Dont have to be easy (tho sometimes......) just shorter,maybe even designed for solo , but higher lvl play all the same. Thans for even asking the question Mad.

I like short quests over long ones. I actually hate any quest that would normally take more than 30 minutes to run it, IF YOU KNOW it. Thus if a zerging maniac soloist is running he ought to be able to complete most or all of the objectives in under 30 minutes. That to me is a good quest. Actually, between 15-30 minutes is ideal quest length for me.

Waiting around more than 10-15+ minutes to fill groups is not what I call fun (or efficient) use of my time. I would rather just solo for that amount of time and actually get a quest accomplished instead of waiting around for a full party to begin.

I am very casual DDO player and can play (and do) various play-styles (PD, Static, Guild, Twinked/Untwinked, etc.) that suits my mood. Like Willi above (Great Guild by the way!) I do not have more than an hour to play most times and unless I schedule the time to meet before-hand with guildies for various outings, I am not likely to guarantee more than 45 minutes of continuous time to play.

I think the difficulty over all is fine for most casual players. It is challenging to those who have not yet gotten all the uber lootz, or may never because they simply will never have the time to invest to get it.

Those that DO have all the uber lootz screaming for more difficulty will never be appeased without alienating the more casual player base. Perhaps give these folks YET another difficulty level above elite (or even EPIC) and call it UBER. Make it twice the difficulty of elite quests, but count as merely one level higher than elite. You gain no more favors than elite would give you, and remove rest and rez shrines by half. If the quest normally only has one, remove it altogether or round down.

That might be a start for the ubers. Should keep them around for a while too while they fail more than they succeed until they manage to beat even that regularly. I am sure some hard core PD folks would love it...

;)

[ArcaneMelee]

The game is already adjusted so that bad, unorganized, unprepared players can have fun. It is called casual and normal difficulty. The bad players are the ones who want to restrict fun. They want the entire game to be easily beaten.
...

The only problem is that when Turbine sets rewards that can only be gotten from harder settings, they are sending the message that Casual/Normal isn't good enough. So the folks who aren't capable of the higher challenge complain, Turbine adjusts the difficulty, and the cycle starts all over again.

If the only reason that one runs harder content is to get better rewards, they aren't looking for a challenge.

Note: Even though I quoted you, parvo, I'm not talking about people who play permadeath.

[Ungood]

I hope with the new epic levels, that we won't get a slew of posts from people complaining that 14th and 17th level raids are too easy for their epic'ed out 25th level toons now.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

The only problem is that when Turbine sets rewards that can only be gotten from harder settings, they are sending the message that Casual/Normal isn't good enough. So the folks who aren't capable of the higher challenge complain, Turbine adjusts the difficulty, and the cycle starts all over again.

Sounds reasonable.


If the only reason that one runs harder content is to get better rewards, they aren't looking for a challenge.

That, or more favour.

Because you don't get much with the relatively small amounts of "favour points" you receive from doing easier quest levels.

The only real exception to this is the few quests which can be done solo only, like "Arachnophobia", for example.

[Sinsyne]

Normal difficulty is ok as it is. However I wouldn't mind hard being harder and elite being much harder with additional features like the quasi-permadeath in LOB.

But one thing is worth noting: I know several people whose perception of a good quest depends on whether he dies in a quest or not.
Specifically these people don't like to die they don't have fun dying they don't log in after work to grind or to suffer through a long quest (just to die in the end). That's why they mostly ignore end game content and play with different toons on low level. And they don't come to the forums either, but they exist.

[sirgog]

Shorter quests at 'end game' may be a possibility. There are sometimes when I log on and just don't have enough time to wait around for a raid group to fill and then run a long quest. This is a little bit discouraging for me at times.

I'm not an uber player, and I like to get in on a game whenever I log on. The quote above describes me too. Please can we have some more short and medium quests. Dont have to be easy (tho sometimes......) just shorter,maybe even designed for solo , but higher lvl play all the same. Thans for even asking the question Mad.

There are a few of these - Epic Snitch, Epic Bargain of Blood, all of the epic Fens except Into the Deep, and in a zerging group, quite a few more epics can be done in under 10 minutes (yes, even including VON3).

The problem IMO is that most of those offer no loot except if you also run much longer linked quests. e.g. the Seal of the Bracers of the Claw comes from a ~12 minute quest (at PUG speed), but the Shard comes from a ~45 minute quest (again, at PUG speed). Even the challenges are like this to an extent.

I could see some merit to difficult short quests (think, for instance, just wave 5 of Epic Devil Assault without the earlier waves, that's a ~8 minute quest there, or just Hound of Xoriat without the run in) that have self-contained loot and maybe even dungeon scaling.

[mikesharpshooter]

casual= good for new people learn game, but solo, because there are never lfm
normal= good for "normal people with real life" but lfm? one in 100
hard= experienced player who love more reward and test of skill. lfm very very few
leeeeeeeet= super uber who want 750 hp wizzy or rogue, no AA, dc 640, ac 900, etc etc (you know) ;)

so new people come play alone for a while get bored quit
super uber are happy to be so, but do not help new people come in.
imho: selfishness will kill this "COOPERATIVE" game

[voodoogroves]

I could see some merit to difficult short quests (think, for instance, just wave 5 of Epic Devil Assault without the earlier waves, that's a ~8 minute quest there, or just Hound of Xoriat without the run in) that have self-contained loot and maybe even dungeon scaling.

I've been a big proponent of these.

Give me a few late-game hard quests - let me fail, but let me fail fast enough to try it again. The worst part of failing on a 7 minute Hound or the end fight of In the Flesh isn't that you can't handle the end fight again - it's that you have to do all that not-hard tax work first.

eDQ is great. Groups can still fail that, sometimes they may come to here and say it was just lag - whatever. Heck, maybe the healers get TK'd off. Thing is, recall/reform and back in can happen ... and the reason it happens is just about everyone can get back to the quest for another try within the 5 minutes.

It may be a gimme for some groups, but it is still something a PUG even of good people can fail ... and given the opportunity to reform, communicate a bit they'd succeed. That's good content.

I did a Hound hard last night in a complete PUG - they are very popular on Ghallanda to my experience for a shot at the wraps and bracelet. Anyway, it was a total PUG, smattering of folks from different places ... but all pretty savvy it seemed. We had a bit of poor luck on the first wave of dogs one with an errant reaver and one after losing his charm died from something (presumably bees). That's ok - group knew what they were doing. One dog left, recharmed and started chewing away. Collected more stones and kept plugging. We didn't succeed but we worked it close and nearly did ... but the big black beholders in wave 3 or 4 were too much.

Seriously a lot of fun. Group was great and having a good time, communicating well.

So, a failure. And one that was fun. No one minded the failure in and of itself.

No one wanted to make the run again because if we could have just done the quest, we'd have tried again immediately. As it is, folks staring at the clock with less than 30 minutes were simply out.

Love the unique loot. Love the fun mechanics and failure chance. Wish it didn't have a straight-up time tax

[parvo]

Some folks want 10 minute quests so they can do 20 quests in their three hour sessions...
I think there are probably already many quests that go that fast in "normal" play, so I don't see the issue, but don't eliminate the quests that take longer.

[voodoogroves]

Some folks want 10 minute quests so they can do 20 quests in their three hour sessions...
I think there are probably already many quests that go that fast in "normal" play, so I don't see the issue, but don't eliminate the quests that take longer.

Right. I want a few.

More to the point, if I want a long slog, I'd prefer for it to be consistent. I like Chronoscope. The end fight is harder, but the two lead-up bosses are also not a cakewalk. Compare that to In the Flesh or Hound + walk.

[Jaguras]

Personally i find the Difficultylevel in DDO very appropriate. But since ive been around so long and have played so many of the available Quests (some more than a hundred Times), this feeling may not be mutual. Right now, im playing a Lvl 9/2 Fighter/Rogue and im doing Lvl 9/10 Quests for the Elite Bravery Bonus (currently at 40 Elite quests done in Bravery). Even though i have only 2 Lvls of Rogue, i spotted/found/disarmed every Trap so far. But im using max. Gear which helps a lot. Mobs are not too hard either usually. The only thing i wasnt able to do was Inkrakos in the Phiarlan Carnival Chain. He wiped my Party several Times pretty good (Hirelings only) so i decided to leave the Bonus XP and 2 Chests there. On Normal i wouldnt have had any Problem with him. Even less in other Quests. Id like to see only minor Changes, one being more shorter Quests. Theres so many long/very long Quests ingame but only a handful of shorter Quests.

Jag

[sirgog]

I've been a big proponent of these.

Give me a few late-game hard quests - let me fail, but let me fail fast enough to try it again. The worst part of failing on a 7 minute Hound or the end fight of In the Flesh isn't that you can't handle the end fight again - it's that you have to do all that not-hard tax work first.

eDQ is great. Groups can still fail that, sometimes they may come to here and say it was just lag - whatever. Heck, maybe the healers get TK'd off. Thing is, recall/reform and back in can happen ... and the reason it happens is just about everyone can get back to the quest for another try within the 5 minutes.

It may be a gimme for some groups, but it is still something a PUG even of good people can fail ... and given the opportunity to reform, communicate a bit they'd succeed. That's good content.

I did a Hound hard last night in a complete PUG - they are very popular on Ghallanda to my experience for a shot at the wraps and bracelet. Anyway, it was a total PUG, smattering of folks from different places ... but all pretty savvy it seemed. We had a bit of poor luck on the first wave of dogs one with an errant reaver and one after losing his charm died from something (presumably bees). That's ok - group knew what they were doing. One dog left, recharmed and started chewing away. Collected more stones and kept plugging. We didn't succeed but we worked it close and nearly did ... but the big black beholders in wave 3 or 4 were too much.

Seriously a lot of fun. Group was great and having a good time, communicating well.

So, a failure. And one that was fun. No one minded the failure in and of itself.

No one wanted to make the run again because if we could have just done the quest, we'd have tried again immediately. As it is, folks staring at the clock with less than 30 minutes were simply out.

Love the unique loot. Love the fun mechanics and failure chance. Wish it didn't have a straight-up time tax

Yeah DDO handles wipes really badly.

In other games if you wipe - you are usually back in the action in 2-3 minutes.

In DDO if you wipe in, say, Shroud part 4 - it's 15 minutes to get back there. 20-30 if you have people drop group (and you do a lot, because suddenly a 25-30 minute raid is looking like taking a total of 40-50 minutes, some may not have time).

Other quests - present and future - should be more like DQ2 than LOB or HOX.

[parvo]

Yeah DDO handles wipes really badly.

In other games if you wipe - you are usually back in the action in 2-3 minutes.

In DDO if you wipe in, say, Shroud part 4 - it's 15 minutes to get back there. 20-30 if you have people drop group (and you do a lot, because suddenly a 25-30 minute raid is looking like taking a total of 40-50 minutes, some may not have time).

Other quests - present and future - should be more like DQ2 than LOB or HOX.

What games get you back in the action in 2-3 minutes?

[Chai]

What games get you back in the action in 2-3 minutes?

Most MMOs instance where if you kill up to a certain point in a raid, you are up to that point for the duration of the timer. WOW, EQ 1 and 2.

If you wiped in Shroud part 4 using that system, for three days, you would be able to run straight to part 4 as parts 1-3 would be considered "done" until the three day timer is up.

Currently if you wipe in part 4, you have to kill through parts 1-3 again if you wanted to finish the raid.

I consider this more of a convenience factor than a difficulty factor though....

[sweez]

Yeah DDO handles wipes really badly.

In other games if you wipe - you are usually back in the action in 2-3 minutes.

In DDO if you wipe in, say, Shroud part 4 - it's 15 minutes to get back there. 20-30 if you have people drop group (and you do a lot, because suddenly a 25-30 minute raid is looking like taking a total of 40-50 minutes, some may not have time).

Other quests - present and future - should be more like DQ2 than LOB or HOX.

This.

[parvo]

Most MMOs instance where if you kill up to a certain point in a raid, you are up to that point for the duration of the timer. WOW, EQ 1 and 2.

If you wiped in Shroud part 4 using that system, for three days, you would be able to run straight to part 4 as parts 1-3 would be considered "done" until the three day timer is up.

Currently if you wipe in part 4, you have to kill through parts 1-3 again if you wanted to finish the raid.

I consider this more of a convenience factor than a difficulty factor though....

I see. What is the penalty for character death in those games? I assume WoW has almost none, but just an assumption.

[praetor]

I think this is a valid question and I appreciate your seeking our input. I don't think that the game is too hard, in fact I think that it is actually too easy. I think that the vast majority of people who find this game "too hard" are roughly at the same play level as myself, and have simply lost sight of what makes a game entertaining in the first place: defeating challenging quests. Instead they are fixated on the reward items from these quests and so badly want these rewards that they no longer care about the challenge. This is the same reason why these players immediately quit the game or stop paying into it after they've achieved their "reward". Your goal, and it is not an easy one, is to find a way to continually challenge the player without frustrating them. Epic LoB was a good example of this: over a long period of time, players had to gradually work together, across the server, to adapt and improve how they ran this quest. This made the game extremely engaging, highly entertaining, and promoted community and player-to-player interaction. There are easy buttons at every level of the game, including recent patches which have already made it easier to attain what was easily hitherto the rarest and most sought-after loot in the game. What did these players do once they acquired their loot? I simply ask you to survey the difference in the number of raiding LFM's before and after this change to find the answer. I think you will find it not only intrinsically important, but also financially sound, to continually challenge the player, little by little, than to hand them shortcuts to success so they can quit the game faster.

[grodon9999]

quest run-ups are boring.

[wonkey]

I think what is obvious is that different players want different things out of the game.

Some think that every player, no matter skill or loot level, should be able to do all content with a decent chance of success, because they don't want to 'work' at a game. and to them, success is the best loot. Making any loot inaccessible to less skilled players with less gear is not acceptable to them.

On the flip side, you have those who want everything to be a challenge, with a real chance of failure to earn any kind of rewards.

And, of course, you have all positions in the middle.

So you're not going to make everyone happy, but how about a few suggestions that might work for most (imo, of course)


1. Currently, the rez shrine mechanic is a bit borked. Because if anyone survives, the lone survivor can cart all the stones back to a shrine, and the party can go on like nothing happened. In turn, that means the devs have to aim at a party wipe if they want to add any actual challenge to completion. But they don't want to wipe you all the time, so they space it out with relatively easy and boring sections, punctuated by either cheesy party-wipe mechanics, or really tough, potentially party-wiping fights or traps that make people feel frustrated when they have to go through the easy part again if they wipe.

I suggest putting a limit on rez shrine usage, and put less of them in. Not every rest shrine needs a rez shrine, just as you'll occasionally find a rez shrine without a rest shrine.
Alternately, there can be a higher penalty for death, though I think this will upset more people.

2. Make it so that everyone can get all loot, but those who do higher difficulties can get it faster. Significantly faster if they do elite than normal. Also, make the character levels vs quest level factor into the equation, so that people have a reason to do quests at level. The best stuff should be at the highest levels anyway, so there's less worry about leveling past.

3. Randomize traps. We know you can do it, cause there are some in game. i'm not asking for a lot of randomization, or that every trap be randomized. Simply that there be a few options for each 'random' trap, and they are enabled or disabled when the quest starts. The best would be if they were of different types (dif elements, or element vs physical, for example) and covered each other's safe zones. Each coming with some kind of hint might be nice, so those who stop to think can easily figure out which one is active, and a rogue, while nice, is not required for those who want to metagame it. For example, you can have a hallway. Either there's an acid trap that covers the left side, or spikes on the right. If the acid is active, put some corrosive marks on the floor, if spikes, put some blood on the wall.

I might come back with some more soon...

[StrikerDroid]

Hello, I would like to consider myself an above casual gamer skill level so here is my opinon on difficulty. I run with a static group of six with a balanced class spread and also a spread out game skill level. We took our characters all the way to 20 and mostly ran quests on normal at level sometimes on hard. We almost never ran a quest on elite at level. Our group also had a rule that we could not use any loot on them that we did not find while questing and we would only run with our six party group. So we have a good expierence with levling the first time without getting hand-me-down gear or buying from the auction house.

Our group was made up of (we have since renicarnated), Sorc, Fighter, Rogue, Palidin, Ranger, and Cleric.

I would like to point out that all quests of a given level are not made equal with difficulty. We ran into several quests that we had to level past the quest level to beat, even after looking online for stratagy and tips. The big difficulty spike that I saw was around level 17, in reavers refuge and out on Shaverath. A giant leap in HP and Fort caused almost a grinding halt to our group. We had to resort to buying wounding puncturing weapons to pass those quests. We ran every quest in the game and had eventually beaten them all, except raids. We were only able to beat 5 of them. (we pugged out the remaining spots or invited guildies) the five we beat were the Dragon, Reaver, Shroud, DQ, and VoD. We reincarnated before we had enough boots to run ToD so no imput there. We ran on several occations Titan and Abbot only to make small mistakes and fail miserably. An hour or more on each titan run wasted time. We were way above level to include Chrono in any logical sense. And we only ran the raids on normal, except the reaver we got that on elite.

I do understand that to an experianced player with any "free" loot that the current normal is just cake but to the average person that wants to get there there are inconsistoncies with level to quest difficulty and if you are a casual player with limited time to play raids are out of the question unless you get into a group that is filled with leet toons with uber gear. I belive that no quest in the game should be built on Normal to account for any "twinked" gear or TR'ed characters, and I belive now there are several quests in the game that are built for that on Normal difficulty. We have in this game the ability to add difficulty with hard, elite, and epic, so don't make normal able to kill the uber players.

I am not saying that normal should be a cakewalk and have no option for failure that wouldn't be any fun. I just want to add my two cents from a casual and balanced perspective, that at the moment some quests on normal are balance to give challange to the uber leet thus making the hard and elite versions untouchable to the casual player wanting to learn and grow in skill. Also some raids have a fail trigger with a twichy switch, how can any casual player expect to learn how to get through them on normal to be able to run them on hard, leet, or epic with one mistake causing instant failure.

[Chai]

I see. What is the penalty for character death in those games? I assume WoW has almost none, but just an assumption.

EQ 1 death penalty was losing 2/3 of a level of XP. You could even be de-leveled. All your gear is left on your toons corpse which is still laying wherever you died, which may be the bottom layer of some god forsaken dungeon that takes 90 minutes for a full party with gear to clear.

EQ 2 death penalty was XP debt. While you didnt lose XP, further XP gained was at a -%, and accumulated as more deaths occurred. If you died once, 20% of your entire level could be penalized until you reach X value for XP. DDO had a similar system in the beginning and players complained about it, until we got the repair bill "penalty".

WOW death penalty? repair bill, like the current DDO. Players even got bonus XP for not logging onto that toon for a few days.

[Chai]

Hard LOB feels about right to me.

Normal might be a little too rough for casual players who just want to see how the story ends. I mean experienced people blow through it like it's nothing now, but it's probably at bit much compared to the other level 20 raid on normal.

Epic is simply a contest of kiting mobs and tossing hjeal scrolls, and i expect more from the developers than what was given to us with that. The lack of the shrines is just silly as it's circumventable if you feel like wasting a ton of time torcing up.

eChrono is a much better raid. Multiple parts, great story (and loot), and a boss that can be tanked with skill and not just absorb damage and yell "hjeal meh!!!" I'm bringing this up as it's the only other epic raid that was never re-hashed content.

I agree that Hard LOB is about right, currently.

This is where I was with hard TOD a few months after its release.

I think it will become a cakewalk on everything but epic sooner than later, because the more people run it, the more routine it gets, and the more people can run it with their eyes closed.

I remember when chronoscope came out and alot of the self proclaimed elite veterans were wanting the level raised for non epic, and for epic they wanted it toned down a bit. Nowdays its still one of the best raids in the game IMO. Its still fun to run and challenging enough to run on all difficulties at level.

[grodon9999]

I agree that Hard LOB is about right, currently.

This is where I was with hard TOD a few months after its release.

I think it will become a cakewalk on everything but epic sooner than later, because the more people run it, the more routine it gets, and the more people can run it with their eyes closed.

Hard is already easy with the ideal group.

We've done normal with no healer.

People are speed running Epic but burning through a bunch of resources to do so. it's not really hard, it's more resource intensive with very few ways around that (1000ish heal scrolls a run . . . come on Turbine you can do better than that).



I remember when chronoscope came out and alot of the self proclaimed elite veterans were wanting the level raised for non epic, and for epic they wanted it toned down a bit. Nowdays its still one of the best raids in the game IMO. Its still fun to run and challenging enough to run on all difficulties at level.

And it's more than just kiting mobs and tossing heal scrolls, it's a much better raid by far with better loot.

I think a lot of the "must . . . beat . . . ELoB . . ." attitude is just to say you did it. Whereas eChrono was just plain fun. i've said it before the CAD is a much better boss, all his big attacks can be avoided with player skill and can be tanked on a 500 HP monk/ranger/whatever. ELOB is damage absorption and "hjeal meh" with skill playing a much smaller part, a much more poorly designed enounter.

The second other gear comes out that are better than Alchemical Weapons (and let's face it . . . they really ain't that great) this raid becomes the new "Titan Awakes" and nobody will bother with it.

[Chai]

Hard is already easy with the ideal group.

We've done normal with no healer.

People are speed running Epic but burning through a bunch of resources to do so. it's not really hard, it's more resource intensive with very few ways around that (1000ish heal scrolls a run . . . come on Turbine you can do better than that).

And it's more than just kiting mobs and tossing heal scrolls, it's a much better raid by far with better loot.

I think a lot of the "must . . . beat . . . ELoB . . ." attitude is just to say you did it. Whereas eChrono was just plain fun. i've said it before the CAD is a much better boss, all his big attacks can be avoided with player skill and can be tanked on a 500 HP monk/ranger/whatever. ELOB is damage absorption and "hjeal meh" with skill playing a much smaller part, a much more poorly designed enounter.

Yeah I agree. I dont mind megatron so much as a boss mob, but voltron is better by far. :p


The second other gear comes out that are better than Alchemical Weapons (and let's face it . . . they really ain't that great) this raid becomes the new "Titan Awakes" and nobody will bother with it.

I was hoping they would put items in like shroud gear where you could make bracers, necklace, boots, gloves, cloak, goggles, etc.

LOB
http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/lord-of-blades-01.jpg

Megatron
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090808021511/transformers/images/7/7d/Rotf-megatron-1.jpg

[ddobard1]

So a party wipes and... who cares? np we'll try again in 1 minute??! wow

And then some people whines that many Characters dont spend their Action points!! lol

[zex95966]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.


I have been playing this game since my join date, and find it difficult.
I do feel that the game is balanced for the experienced, super-equipped player.
new players with 28 points, limited races, limited bank space and all of 2 character slots... just don't stand a chance.
I can only recommend one path for the above which of course very few new players will actually be that specific: A human or dwarven barbarian who has a good guild and/or lots of friends. Human lets you make a mistake with a feat and not break your character, while dwarves are just more survivable as a race.

My first character: I made a Battlecleric based on advice here on the forums, even followed a 28 point build, but bought 32 points to have some leeway and made sure I knew what equipment to get: heavy fort, hp items, etc...
I only made it to lvl 7 before I had to give up. Other than Hirelings, I admit I didn't party much - I knew that people didn't want an inexperienced cleric on their team. The rare times that I did party up, I would get yelled at by teamates for swinging my weapon. I learned rather quickly you have to know the quest, are expected to have the best equipment and if you don't your not welcome.
This meant solo - which means most quests were exponentially harder. As I said, I made it to lvl 7 before finally giving up on the character.

the story hasn't changed much today. my highest character just made it to 15 not long ago... but look at my join date. Since then, I have bought all races, classes, and have become VIP thinking that all of those things would make the game a little easier for me.
I have tried every class at least once by now, looked up many guides builds and other things nearly everyday. yet I still die in normal at-level quests. I have decent equipment now, even some festival items, but I don't have raid gear (except chronoscope stuff, and I'm not using it because I have better stuff now)
I'm hoping once I hit 17, that I will be able to do all the popular raids so I can get said gear.

But I digress.
Yes, I find the game to difficult.
one major problem... which will never be addressed I'm sure, is that you have a million different clickies you need to remember, and a lot of them are duplicates - I admit I don't remember them all.
Just a small example:
Bulls strength potion/Wand of Bulls strength/scroll of bulls strength/Item clickie of bulls strength (don't forget the hotswap if your using something else as your main)
Do we really need that many bulls strength variants?

so lets say you have a belt of bulls strength clickie with a heavy fort belt as your hotswap. 2 spots right there.
Even if your something simple like a fighter, you end up with tons of bars all over the place with your kensai power surge, any tactics feat you might have, all your different weapons for different monsters, all your pots/wands/scrolls.
newbies are not going to be aware of more than half these things (as well as all the things that don't stack) and will quite simply die. Not to mention they just don't have the plat to buy those pots etc. It doesn't help that the online community (not so much here on the forums but the actual game community) are elitists who will not hesitate to tell you how useless you are to the team.

I don't expect to never fail, but we are way beyond never failing.

What I propose and what will never happen is:
more simplicity - less bars to worry about.
for newer players, more character slots - 2 characters is simply not enough to experience all that ddo has to offer or for them to know what kind of character they want to play.
more bank space for newer players.
they would still have to buy races and classes as well as everything else - but you will make more profit if newer players do not give up in frustration. I gave up for about a year a long time ago, and came back because friends started playing.

[ThomasMink]

Megatron
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090808021511/transformers/images/7/7d/Rotf-megatron-1.jpg
**** ugly Bay-formers..

Megatron
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070929224341/transformers/images/9/99/Megatronguido.jpg

[Feithlin]

One of the problems of difficulty with usual quests (not raids) is the lack of scaling of self healing capacity of bosses. Toons with average dps will usually face a real difficulty handling those bosses, because they heal more quickly than the player character can damage them (for example Running with the devils or I dream of Jeet).

[Kushiel]

One of the problems of difficulty with usual quests (not raids) is the lack of scaling of self healing capacity of bosses. Toons with average dps will usually face a real difficulty handling those bosses, because they heal more quickly than the player character can damage them (for example Running with the devils or I dream of Jeet).

There are cases I've encountered against just Scorrow Priests/Acolytes/Prophits, Windlasher Shamans, Hobgoblin Shamans, and something else that is slipping my mind atm... where my reaction is; REALLY! ARE You Frelling Kidding me!!! Self-healing to full, uninteruptably dropping Blade Barriers (or dispelling me of my important buffs), or SoundBursts, chain-summoning mephits as soon as they die - where most of my summons are on ungodly long timers, and having spell resistances, and goofy AC/HP/speed without self-hasting or taking precious time to throw buffs... and seemingly being able to (in the case of scorrow) still manage Claw/Claw/Tail-whip attacks after having just done some combination of dropping an offensive spell and self healing.

Sure - some of my annoyance is that I'm an AA... and even with Rapid Shot and Multi-Shot all-to-often I just can't keep up with what the foes are capable of regarding their damage output or recovery abilities. The dispell almost always strips my arrow imbue - which situationally can be an intigral part of my ability to do damage (ghost touch via force arrow). The Foes have unlimited sp, aren't inturupted, move like they are on crack and have a solid target-lock for most anything they cast or swing at (and like Ogres/Trolls have no cooldown at all for a triple-smash attack that all 3 seem to get resolved on one roll - my "best" most basic attack *True Shot* has a huge cooldown compared to the "good" it is actually capable of.. and the cooldown on Multi-Shot compared to an Ogre/Trolls' ablilty to triple-smash, hop, triple-smash, hop, triple-smash is just dumb.

It's not that the difficulty of encounters is Hard in the game, it is that sometimes what we are faced with (while trying to remember and pick and target hotkeyed things and managing cooldowns and being blocked, and loosing that stupid little mouse cursor, and misclicking) is at best *unforgiving* at worse... just stupid.

[parvo]

There are cases I've encountered against just Scorrow Priests/Acolytes/Prophits, Windlasher Shamans, Hobgoblin Shamans, and something else that is slipping my mind atm... where my reaction is; REALLY! ARE You Frelling Kidding me!!! Self-healing to full, uninteruptably dropping Blade Barriers (or dispelling me of my important buffs), or SoundBursts, chain-summoning mephits as soon as they die - where most of my summons are on ungodly long timers, and having spell resistances, and goofy AC/HP/speed without self-hasting or taking precious time to throw buffs... and seemingly being able to (in the case of scorrow) still manage Claw/Claw/Tail-whip attacks after having just done some combination of dropping an offensive spell and self healing.

Sure - some of my annoyance is that I'm an AA... and even with Rapid Shot and Multi-Shot all-to-often I just can't keep up with what the foes are capable of regarding their damage output or recovery abilities. The dispell almost always strips my arrow imbue - which situationally can be an intigral part of my ability to do damage (ghost touch via force arrow). The Foes have unlimited sp, aren't inturupted, move like they are on crack and have a solid target-lock for most anything they cast or swing at (and like Ogres/Trolls have no cooldown at all for a triple-smash attack that all 3 seem to get resolved on one roll - my "best" most basic attack *True Shot* has a huge cooldown compared to the "good" it is actually capable of.. and the cooldown on Multi-Shot compared to an Ogre/Trolls' ablilty to triple-smash, hop, triple-smash, hop, triple-smash is just dumb.

It's not that the difficulty of encounters is Hard in the game, it is that sometimes what we are faced with (while trying to remember and pick and target hotkeyed things and managing cooldowns and being blocked, and loosing that stupid little mouse cursor, and misclicking) is at best *unforgiving* at worse... just stupid.

Did you try casual setting?

[Antheal]

Did you try casual setting?

Did you try not trolling?

[Kushiel]

Did you try casual setting?

Ah, Parvo ol' pal, believe me... if I could run just casual and get the XP needed to gain levels and Favor rewards each life, I would run nothing but - and have less frustration and more fun. That's a brilliant idea. Thank you so much.

But, sadly that is not to be, it is from Elite that good XP and the best favor drops and sitting on an Elite streak of ~160 so far this life (life number 8) I think is telling that I'm either an extraordinary piker, very lucky, or do put some effort into getting things done.

[Chai]

Ah, Parvo ol' pal, believe me... if I could run just casual and get the XP needed to gain levels and Favor rewards each life, I would run nothing but - and have less frustration and more fun. That's a brilliant idea. Thank you so much.

But, sadly that is not to be, it is from Elite that good XP and the best favor drops and sitting on an Elite streak of ~160 so far this life (life number 8) I think is telling that I'm either an extraordinary piker, very lucky, or do put some effort into getting things done.

C-c-c-combo breaker!!!

Yeah, I agree.

I will also add that bravery bonus is the single best incentive Turbine put into this game in a long time that encourages people to challenge their own abilities and challenge others.

[zex95966]

I really truly hope they don't listen to the people that are saying this game is to easy.
I already fail lvl 12 quests in normal on my lvl 15, 32 point build with good equipment. - not the absolute best equipment that took me 30 raids to get, but I have heavy fort items, feather fall item, hp item, and all the immunities, as well as following builds on these forums that were said to be "doable" at 28 points, but I'm failing at 32...

I think the people who make these builds are relying on a higher lvl character with mountains of plat in order to optimize his lower lvl character and wondering why the game seems easy. Not to mention the guild buffs which honestly should just be removed, except maybe for the experience shrine. when a lvl 2 character can get 30 in all resistances by joining a guild, and wondering why casters are pansies, you have a problem.

well whatever... if you make the game harder I doubt the 28 point noobies who have to choose all of 2 classes and have enough bank space maybe to support some basic equipment but not enough room for the pots, and various buffs, and no guild buffs are going to stick around.
I quit and would have never come back if some RL friends didn't start playing. As is, I can only play if one of them is on, as it's impossible without plat to get past my lvl 15 now. well, maybe not impossible, but the amount of effort it would take is not worth it - running every single quest in casual (including the p2p ones) until the quests stop giving me xp, and then running all the slayer areas until they are maxed out might lvl me - but I don't consider grinding out a million kills "fun"
That's assuming i don't die in the explorable areas, which I probably will.

worse, you don't get any experience for killing a monster.... you only get experience at certain numbers. I can spend an entire day killing monsters and not gain a single experience point.

[voxson5]

What class are you running Zex95966?

I found the majority of the content pretty easy on normal as a human water savant, wf Fvs, and elite most of the way to 20 on my reasonably geared main (exploiter life)

Some build really depend on others to survive, while others work very well solo. Likewise, the quest plays a huge part in the surviuval of some class/race combos.

Could you try differnt tactics on the quests you are having trouble with? Like try to use the terrain to your advantage, use a summon (cast/clickie/scroll/consumable) & invis (pot/scroll/clickie/cast) so you dont get initial agro & can escape or take them down?

Just ideas.

[zex95966]

What class are you running Zex95966?

I found the majority of the content pretty easy on normal as a human water savant, wf Fvs, and elite most of the way to 20 on my reasonably geared main (exploiter life)

Some build really depend on others to survive, while others work very well solo. Likewise, the quest plays a huge part in the surviuval of some class/race combos.

Could you try differnt tactics on the quests you are having trouble with? Like try to use the terrain to your advantage, use a summon (cast/clickie/scroll/consumable) & invis (pot/scroll/clickie/cast) so you dont get initial agro & can escape or take them down?

Just ideas.

I have made all classes at least once, and several have been attempted multiple times - my lvl 15 main is a fighter with rogues splash for umd and evasion.

but once I hit lvl 10+ I find the game simply to difficult.
I have tried many tactics, some of which you have suggested.
of course I know to fight in doorways with melee, take out the casters first, and if my UMD atm was high enough I would start using summons etc as well.

I haven't had much luck with invis I'm guessing I'm using it against the wrong mobs, they seem to see me anyways. I haven't tried it again in a long time, so I couldn't tell you which mobs I last used it on.

yes, my wf fvs so far was probably the easiest... he's only lvl 7 atm though and it's really not till around 10+
where giants who hit pretty hard, and the monsters AC really starts getting high (I don't have problems hitting with my fighter, but I imagine I might with my FVS, bards, or even pallies.)

more caster oriented classes are simply to expensive for me to outfit to land any CC spells. I tried a Pale master long ago but found he kinda sucks before lvl 12 until you get your form - assuming you don't splash rogue for evasion and traps, which I do.
That + in groups my webs would get burned away if there were other casters in the group, etc. Tried a sorc even longer ago - before they had prestiges for em. Made several bards, I like them - but solo they aren't a great class, and I solo a lot.

...as I said I've tried all classes at least once some I quit at 6, knowing right away I wouldn't like them, most at around 8-12 when I can no longer group with pugs as they are rare and the few that I group up with tell me I need better equipment, and are better off without me.

[Deathdefy]

I'm hoping this thread is still being read, and just remembered I needed to share this:

Hold for Reinforcements is a terrible quest.

On Elite, there are I think 3 points when 2 Flesh Renders spawn and bee-line for coyle. Even with temp HP from GH and Ablative Armor, it is very rough to distract them in the 1-2 seconds before he's dead.

Please make him more like Lady Adzel from "The Captives". She just gets back up like a champ.

[wonkey]

Ah, Parvo ol' pal, believe me... if I could run just casual and get the XP needed to gain levels and Favor rewards each life, I would run nothing but - and have less frustration and more fun. That's a brilliant idea. Thank you so much.

But, sadly that is not to be, it is from Elite that good XP and the best favor drops and sitting on an Elite streak of ~160 so far this life (life number 8) I think is telling that I'm either an extraordinary piker, very lucky, or do put some effort into getting things done.

Ah, so your problem is that there are some monsters in the game that are actually hard for a single player to kill when they are on the hardest regular difficulty setting, which is designed to challenge a group?

Wow, that's rough.

And, of course, they NEED to be made easier, because how could it possibly be fair to require a group, or a challenge, to get the very best rewards in game?

I'm not saying everyone has to play like us PDers. I know we are a small minority, and the devs should cater to the majority. But you won't convince me that the game is just too hard, at least until level 12 or so, which is where I've gotten up to in 2 years + of PD play.
I don't know why people feel that the game has to hand out the best gear easily. You can do fine in pretty good gear. Getting the best SHOULD, imo, require good play, a good team, and decent gear already acquired. It should be a goal to work towards, not a given.

[Kushiel]

Ah, so your problem is that there are some monsters in the game that are actually hard for a single player to kill when they are on the hardest regular difficulty setting, which is designed to challenge a group?

Wow, that's rough.

And, of course, they NEED to be made easier, because how could it possibly be fair to require a group, or a challenge, to get the very best rewards in game?

I'm not saying everyone has to play like us PDers. I know we are a small minority, and the devs should cater to the majority. But you won't convince me that the game is just too hard, at least until level 12 or so, which is where I've gotten up to in 2 years + of PD play.
I don't know why people feel that the game has to hand out the best gear easily. You can do fine in pretty good gear. Getting the best SHOULD, imo, require good play, a good team, and decent gear already acquired. It should be a goal to work towards, not a given.

It is not that I find some monsters "hard" to kill solo on a difficulty setting that is meant for a group; it is that on any difficulty setting I find some monsters have abilities, capabilities, AC/HP, unlimited SP, an ability to move at speeds (smoothly and with a solid target-lock for their attacks and spells) and/or immunities that make them incredibly UnFun to fight. Sometimes even in a group.

And, for this point in particular, since I'd stepped into the mission solo I think I do rather expect the system to take into account "better" that I am not after the killer foes with truly jacked up AC/HP as when going in with a full party. There are some critters which I find to be just stupid. What they are capable of for damage output or self-healing, compared to what characters can manage (often times only in bursts with rediculous cooldowns the foes are not subject to) is a disparity that causes me frustration.

I'm not saying all critters for all people NEED to be made easier. I guess those people exists... but I'm not sure I've encountered any of them. In most of my posts I've tried to make clear an interest in peoples having an option (a range of options) to experience the world in whatever way they most find fun. More Choices. More Options. More Variety.

I, also, don't know "why there are people who feel the game has to hand out the best gear easily" - I'm not one of them. I don't know any of them. I don't chase gear... I'm not a gear grinder. Almost 6 years playing and I've no GS items (have never entered Shroud, am not likely to), no DragonTouched (did that mission once on another server and completely hated it), and no Epics. I get along life-after-life just fine with the gear I've gotten as rewards (and a couple okay raid bits).

I'm not playing a game to have a "goal" to *work* towards. That's more effort than I care to expend. I'm playing a game to... Have Fun.

And, finally, regarding "Wow, that's rough" - thank you for your compassion and understanding. So often on the forums it is hard to find people who are capable of basic empathy and a willingness to view anothers opinion with an open mind.

Oh, wait....

[dougnugget]

Getting the game right isn't just about setting the right difficulty, it's a careful balance between difficulty and reward, and an even more careful balance between different players with different builds, gear and skill levels.

Since it's very hard to balance builds, and impossible to balance gear and skill levels; DDO needs a wide range of difficulty options and i believe that the most important thing is to balance the rewards appropriately. I think that the current implementation of Shroud is the clearest example if where the team has Got It Right, for the following reasons:

* You can get everything that you want from Shroud from running it at any difficulty level...
* But you can get it a lot quicker by running it on elite.
* There are clear rewards (XP, loot, ingredients) for completing each stage of the raid...
* But there is still a clear incentive to complete it rather than just farming the first few stages.
* The raid challenges more than just gear/power levels
* The rewards are flexible and useful to all characters and not just specific builds
* Because the rewards are in the form of ingredients, each raid completion represents incremental progress towards better gear
* If you have mastered the raid on one character, you can pass some of the rewards on to an alt, but you still have to run the raid (well, if you want cleansing items - everything else can be farmed in Amrath) to finish the items you need.

I think Lord of Blades is an example of a raid where the team have Nearly Got it Right. The raid is skill testing in the right way, and (for me - I'm not uber) getting a completion is quite a rush. The "marking" mechanic is a really neat way of giving people extra rewards and they don't have to decide on this before going in - this is genius.

however, the pre-raid is too long, and if the group manage to get LOB down to 5% and then wipe, they have very little to show for it except a cool story and maybe some light forum drama. This means that the experience is way too grindy. I think the raid desperately needs:

* A way to bypass some or all of the pre-raid area - perhaps someone you can talk to at the quest entrance? I'm thinking something like the shortcut to ToD in Amrath. This would significantly cut down the grind of subsequent repetitions.
* Some chests before LOB that can drop shards and maybe a very small chance of something more interesting (maybe the lowest level of elemental spirit)
* Significantly increase the loot rewards for "marking" LOB additional times.
In other words - don't drop the difficulty - but make the rewards reflect that difficulty, and throw people a fricking bone for getting part way through.

I'm specifically using LOB raid as my example as I think that U13 and Epic levels will turn LOB into the Next Level Shroud - a raid below cap which provides gear that is still useful to get to cap. It's also (rightly or wrongly) perceived as significantly harder than most of the other content.

Finally, using different dungeon scaling for different classes is a horrible way to balance the game. It manages to be arbitrary while pretty much acknowledging that "blue bars" are generally superior classes. i strongly hope that the devs use the Enhancement makeover and other changes for U13 as a way to redress the balance. Please give all classes a broadly equal chance to shine, and just drop class-based scaling altogether.

i could say a lot more, but this is already hitting tldr territory, so in summary: we need a wide range of difficulties, rewards should reflect that difficulty, there should be rewards for partial completions, just fix the freaking class balance already and this will help to manage quest difficulty.

[dodger72]

Since the Thelanis server is down...unexpectedly...and I was bored with the day off....

Ataraxia's Haven quests
Reclamation • Sykros' Jewel
Meh….usually only run through these once on elite at level. Don’t really bother too much with this area….no named items, decent xp for the level…but nothing to really write home about. Maybe tie it closer to Three Barrel Cove?

Gianthold quests
Gianthold Tor • Madstone Crater • The Crucible • The Prison of the Planes • The Reaver's Fate
Lots of repeat quests here….great xp for at level. Some so-so named items, Tor contains the really good stuff for here. (Personally, I’d like to see these epic…much like many folks…in time I suppose)
NOTE: It is possible (I know, I’ve had it happen to me and heard of it happening to others) to hijack The Crucible. I was in this quest once and a rogue got the horn of agility and “went afk”….except that his toon would move slightly every few minutes. Not cool.

Temple of the Sovereign Host quests
A Relic of a Sovereign Past
Would like to see the Sword of Tesyus in game as a player-useable weapon. Other than that….great quest.

KorthosIsland quests
Misery's Peak • Necromancer's Doom • Redemption (quest) • Sacrifices • Stopping the Sahuagin
It’s a start. Good xp for level, grindy for TR’s as they are what we all cut our teeth on at one point or another. These are quests that are mechanical and robotic for those that have played this game for a while. Could use a re-vamp on these to keep things fresh….just a thought.

ShipwreckShore quests
The Grotto
Oi….haven’t even thought of this one for a while….

KorthosVillage quests
Heyton's Rest • The Cannith Crystal • The Storehouse's Secret
Much like the Island quests noted above….it’s a start; however, could use a re-vamp on these to keep things fresh. (NOTE: I did like how Heyton’s Rest had been updated….much appreciated…more please?)

Restless Isles quests
Bring Me the Head of Ghola-Fan! • Slavers of the Shrieking Mines • The Titan Awakes • The Twilight Forge
Argh….the flagging quests are fun….but painfully long. The pre-raid-raid and raid are just….oi….the end fight is two or three people while the rest pike. Something needs to be done with this. Not that it’s difficult…but bloody boring. Both raids need some love and care.

Ruins of Threnal quests
Entering the Gate Chamber • Escort the Expedition • Hold for Reinforcements • In Need of Supplies • Secure the Area • The Gate Chamber • The Giant Lieutenants • The Giants' Lair • The Giants' Supplies • The Library of Threnal • The Missing Expedition • The Rescue • The Threnal Arena
Arguably the most hated of area’s and quest chains in the entire game….we, as players, should be allowed to kill Coyle ourselves as an end to this chain, just for spite. I despise this chain….there is not enough dark hatred for this chain to even fathom my desire to slit Coyle’s throat (breathing in and out now). Most of the chain is good, except for Coyle. Please…please….please….please….do….somet hing. The side quests out there need some love and favor as well. But for the love of all that is good and just….please do something to make this a quest chain/area that folks WANT to run for the enjoyment and not just the very good end rewards.

The Harbor quests
Waterworks
The Kobold's Den: Clan Gnashtooth • The Kobold's Den: Rescuing Arlos • Venn's Trail: Clan Tunnelworm • Venn's Trail: Venn's Fate
Wouldn’t mind seeing these updated a bit and made slightly more difficult.

An Explosive Situation • Arachnophobia • Durk's Got A Secret • Garrison's Missing Pack • Haverdasher • Home Sweet Sewer • Invaders! • Irestone Inlet • Kobold Assault • Recovering the Lost Tome • The Captives • The Kobolds' New Ringleader • The Miller's Debt • Walk the Butcher's Path
wouldn’t mind seeing these updated a bit and made slightly more difficult.

The Leaky Dinghy quests
Bringing the Light • Information is Key
wouldn’t mind seeing these updated a bit and made slightly more difficult.

The Wayward Lobster quests
Hiding in Plain Sight • Protect Baudry's Interests • Retrieve the Stolen Goods • Stealthy Repossession • Stop Hazadill's Shipment • The Smuggler's Warehouse
wouldn’t mind seeing these updated a bit and made slightly more difficult.

The Inspired Quarter quests
Dream Conspiracy • Eye of the Titan • Finding the Path • I Dream of Jeets • In the Demon's Den • The Mindsunder • The Shipwrecked Spy
All good with the exception of In the Demon’s Den. For some reason…I just do not like this quest. Yes, I know…free to play for high-level and what not…but this could use…something. I just don’t know what.

Three-Barrel Cove quests
Brood of Flame • Ghost of a Chance • Guard Duty • Legend of Two-Toed Tobias • Old Grey Garl • Prove Your Worth • The Scoundrel's Run • The Stones Run Red • The Troglodytes' Get
I really like this area. The xp is actually good but it NEEDS LOVE. It could be tied into something more besides what it is. I've read of suggestions of tying it to the cove event...may want to think closely on that. Could have drops here with an altar for crafting for pieces of the Event to a certain level (say 10 or so), then use the Event to complete those levels to epic. That way this area doesn't go the way of the Dodo and folks just may run it more often.

[parvo]

Ah, Parvo ol' pal, believe me... if I could run just casual and get the XP needed to gain levels and Favor rewards each life, I would run nothing but - and have less frustration and more fun. That's a brilliant idea. Thank you so much.

But, sadly that is not to be, it is from Elite that good XP and the best favor drops and sitting on an Elite streak of ~160 so far this life (life number 8) I think is telling that I'm either an extraordinary piker, very lucky, or do put some effort into getting things done.

So you want the game to be easily solo'ed on elite setting with bad character builds. Where does that leave those of us who like challenging progression in teams with great builds? My point is this; you have your setting. Leave one for us.

[parvo]

I really truly hope they don't listen to the people that are saying this game is to easy.
I already fail lvl 12 quests in normal on my lvl 15, 32 point build with good equipment. - not the absolute best equipment that took me 30 raids to get, but I have heavy fort items, feather fall item, hp item, and all the immunities, as well as following builds on these forums that were said to be "doable" at 28 points, but I'm failing at 32...

The game will never be easy enough for everyone. It doesn't matter how easy you make it.

[zex95966]

Ah, so your problem is that there are some monsters in the game that are actually hard for a single player to kill when they are on the hardest regular difficulty setting, which is designed to challenge a group?

Wow, that's rough.

And, of course, they NEED to be made easier, because how could it possibly be fair to require a group, or a challenge, to get the very best rewards in game?

I'm not saying everyone has to play like us PDers. I know we are a small minority, and the devs should cater to the majority. But you won't convince me that the game is just too hard, at least until level 12 or so, which is where I've gotten up to in 2 years + of PD play.
I don't know why people feel that the game has to hand out the best gear easily. You can do fine in pretty good gear. Getting the best SHOULD, imo, require good play, a good team, and decent gear already acquired. It should be a goal to work towards, not a given.

1. REQUIRE to play with a group? so your saying nothing should be soloable? as I mentioned earlier my lvl 15 will prob not lvl up again unless I run all explorable areas and do every quest in casual available to me. I can't imagine what it will be like at 18, most quests at those levels do REQUIRE a group which means all that's left is explorable areas. I'm fortunate to be VIP, but for those newer to the game trying to get there without buying the high lvl packs... Prob not happening.

2. I'm not asking for the best equipment, I just want SOMETHING that I can either hit them with and not have them immune or heal faster than the damage I can output without spending millions of plat which I simply do not have. atm I have a +1 holy weapon of shattermantle, and a +2 Metalline weapon of everbright. They do well for the most part... however I got them as gifts from my high level guild. I would prob be using or farming chronoscope for the carnifex if I didn't have those gifts. Isn't chronoscope p2p? I have no idea what a non p2p player would use/farm for... the starter weapons are seriously the next best thing I've seen and/or gotten through natural means in terms of a generic weapon. I've gotten other situational useful stuff like muckbanes or ghost touch stuff but as a general weapon, not so much.

expanding on the above:
AC should really be redone. it shouldn't take so much AC that your character can do nothing else before it even starts to become useful.
I think there should be some incentive to wear heavy armor past lvl 10ish. It doesn't have to be huge, hell, even changing one mob type to miss more often at lower ac levels than they currently are would make it situationally useful. at least situationally useful is still better than completely useless.
my suggestion to change it would completely change the game though:
It would be to get rid of AC altogether, replace it with DR, and make all mobs hit harder. (except maybe the casters)
In the end, every bit of AC helps but you would have to weigh it's importance to other stats yourself.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

So you want the game to be easily solo'ed on elite setting with bad character builds. Where does that leave those of us who like challenging progression in teams with great builds? My point is this; you have your setting. Leave one for us.
Dungeon scaling helps toward resolving at least part of what you're concerned about If you need to take further steps to make the game enough of a challenge to be fun for you, then take those steps.

On that note, naked Diablo 2 hardcore was lots of fun, whether solo or teamed. Nothing stops you from doing something similar in DDO.

[parvo]

Dungeon scaling helps toward resolving at least part of what you're concerned about If you need to take further steps to make the game enough of a challenge to be fun for you, then take those steps.

On that note, naked Diablo 2 hardcore was lots of fun, whether solo or teamed. Nothing stops you from doing something similar in DDO.

You don't know me very well.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

You don't know me very well.
And vice versa.