Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

[Kinerd]

The overall difficulty level is fine.

One problem is that somebody in charge somewhere has confused tedium and frustration with difficulty. Case in point: air elementals for melees. They are in no way a test of skill. They're just tedious.

Escort missions should always be of the form of Power Play and never of the form Threnal. If Power Play was an experiment, please make a note: huge success.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Dungeon scaling really has made a lot of quests seem easy.

But...while I do not enjoy soloing, a lot of players do...so maybe that is a good thing.
(at least until they get in a group a brag about how easy this quest was when they soloed it. :rolleyes: )

Traps!
I am still very upset about the across the board elite traps boost awhile back.
Really bothers me that the most fearsome monster in any dungeon is a trap.
And "if" the trap is required to pass through to complete the dungeon, any group without a Rogue is hurt by this. (and then there are those traps that cannot be disabled...Litany force trap at end)

Also, my Dex based, I even took feats for saves, toon fails way too many trap Ref saves.
(don't even talk to me about those "illusionary" I can't disbeive or evade traps in Party Crashers!)

Raids
and lvl 20 characters.

If you make the raids to challenge lvl 20s, then the correct lvl guys cannot do the raids.
this is a bad thing.

Why are lvl 20 guys in my Reaver raid anyway?!
Why even think about putting loot into a lvl 14 raid that a lvl 20 guy would even want?!

This situation will only get worse if you ever give us epic lvls (21+).


lvl 20s need lvl 20 stuff to do. And tempt them to do.
They have no business running below lvl raids.

Even Shroud elite would be lvl 19. So why are there lvl 20 guys stil doing the Shroud? (on normal!)

Get them out of there!
not by making it impossible for them to do. But by giving them lvl 20 content to run instead.

But...green steel takes awhile to make.
longer than it takes to get to 20.
So... I guess you can't just keep them out.
find another option.


And I guess if nothing else, try to get them to do elite at least.

Elite! in general, should be tough.
That is the lvl to challenge the TRs (or experienced players).


End fights.
Really kinda depressing to get all the way to the end of a quest, and be blindsided by a super tough end fight.




Something to think about.

Everyone who posts on the forums claims to be a DDO God who soloes epics with ease.
They are not the average player. (even if they are telling the truth)

I PUG all the time. I love a challnge. Most PUGs cannot handle the slightest challenge IMO. Not even PUGs of TRed vets. Seriuosly, the average player sucks.
Oh...they might have DPS and HP.... but they still suck!

I don't know what the fix to this is.
On one hand, we are raising a generation of playeers who cannot handle a really tough challenge.
But if you make things too otugh for them, they will quit. And we need players.

I also hate when people feel a quest has becme tough, so they get all exclusive, and selective in who they let come along to ensure their vistory.

But I guess the only way to handle this is to have normal for casual guys, hard for vets. And elite for those who really are elite. (not just who think they are)

But I'm against changing older quests.

Make new (lvl 20!) ones.

[ferrite]

Well I was gonna write some long-winded diatribe about uber vs. average player but decided whats the point.

But my thought is, yes, the game is currently slanted towards the uber-player. And I think its a primary reason why, the population of the game has been decreasing slowly for some time now, to the point where you can't even find groups for some raids anymore. Its possible the game has become frustratingly difficult for the average player (see below for a definition of 'average player')

All raids should be puggable. ALL raids. This includes Titan, Abbot, and LOB and all the rest. The average player simply hasn't the time to consult the wiki nor work out strategies, they have to cook dinner and/or play with the kids and put them to bed, then go to work the next day. This is the average player.

Challenges should be soloable, with an option to suppress or remove the clock entirely, perhaps less rewards for doing so. Same concept as above.

Basically a policy of opening up all content to be experienced by the average player. Average player doesn't include vets with hundreds of larges or epics, nor forum loudmouths who've been around since beta and whine about extreme challenges. These are not your average player, and are not the market Turbine should be catering to at all.

Because, if you create content to only be enjoyed by the uber player, the less than 1% audience of DDO.. then what is the point of creating it at all? All should be able to experience it in one form or another, or its simply wasted development.

Forgive the long-winded diatribe. But you did ask for opinions, and you now have mine.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Let me add something else.

Monsters that do super damage and have a zillion HP is not the only way to challnge people.

In fact, if you read the thread aboit the hardest quests, you will see many listed that are not difficult because they have high damaging mobs with lots of HP. But because they are challenging in some other way.

Enemy Spell casters for one.
kill the casters first, came about because it is those casters that really mess up most players.

All that melee DPS and HP just doesn't seem to work so well when the Flame Strikes start dropping.

I don't like mobs that can endlessly spam the same disabling spell forever though.
(at least give them more variety in what disabling spells they spam. :D )

But provide defenses.

Actually we already have a lot of defenses that no one uses. (one reason those quests are so difficult)

(I am really against no-dispellable ship buffs, and 30pt resists at lvl 1 btw)

Constructs were a step in the right direction.
Elementals, oozes, (undead...ok...maybe not)

Things that cannot be critted.
Things with natural DR.
Monsters that the usual weapons are not so good at killing.
(and golems really shoul dbe immune to almost all magic!)

Anyway there are many ways to challenge players without using super damage and HP.

Variety in the same dungeon is good for balance btw.
cause even though you need to reduce players ability to use their favorite tactics to challenge them; you also need to give them times to have fun using those favorite super powers as well.

[Hakushi]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

I like the variety of difficulty, I don't remember finding myself with troubles doing normal.

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

Personally, I consider my time to be important since it's a "limited ressource". Joining a group and failing isn't fun if I end up with nothing. I don't like to waste my time. That dosn't mean quests should be a guaranteed success but if a lot of time is spent in a quest, a failure with nothing isn't what I call a good thing. A short quest with easy access is different as you just jump back in. Examples of this is DQ2 compared to Titan and Von6, DQ2 you just jump back in, both Titan and VoN6 have the time sink that are the first parts. If on a failure, the entire group would be teleported back at the entrance with a reset on the entire encounter, that could be something good to consider.

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

The Black Abbot is a good example here. I personally don't like much that raid because it's always a very long raid with very little to no reward. Only one chest at the end isn't enough. Normal Abbot should have one side chest, Hard 2 and Elite 3 chests (all added to the main chest). I rarely join groups for the Abbot because of the great time sink this raid is, the items are nice, but while doing the raid, I'm almost basically nerfing my guild by not brigning anything while any other raids have more rewards. The Tiles puzzle is almost always the longest part, if the person falls down, they die instantly and the puzzle fails, what about water in there like the ice puzzle, you fell down, you're in the water taking damage and have to jump back on a platform or simply you fall down, you are teleported back at the beginning of your puzzle and takes 200 damage and have a 10% slow debuff for a few minutes. Make the zone a no healing zone.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

From what I've seen, this is entirely true. Is it bad, yes and no, it all depends of the situation.

I think the changes to the Reaver's Fate are bad. One example, 500 damage disintegrate in a level 14 quest, 16 on elite? Most epic monsters don't even have a disintegrate that deal so much damage, and not even the Black Abbot, a super caster.

Some people think the changes to The Shroud blades were a good change, I disagree on this one, I think a change was needed, but this one is too much imo. On any difficulty, in part4, Harry isn't the main threat but it's now the blades. Beware if you lag or place yourself at a bad spot. Seriously, Harry could be replaced with a huge Training Dummy and it wouldn't make much difference. Why it is now a much better option to go in with only casters?

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Here's a quest that I consider silly on Elite: Acute Delerium. How many people actually completed this thing with a ful group of lvl 20s. This is insanely harder than most epic quests.

Another quest that a lot of people like: Weapons Shipment on elite. If you do it with a full group of 6, there's so much monsters that the game becomes unplayable due to lag and I've seen people dc because of this. Great change I agree compared to the snoozefest it used to be, but too much. Also, why did you made that quest so much easier to solo and invite people only for the end fight?

Bastion of Power with Dungeon Alert. I don't really think I need much to elaborate on this one, we all know DA is broken in that quest.

Another point, Air Elementals and the stupid knockdown effect. I tought you guys realized how air elementals were not fun, but extremely annoying and made changes accordingly. They were too easy, and now are back to their extremely annoying state.

Spies in the House on Epic needs to be reviewed seriously. That also bring to a different point: Have anyone ever tought it's silly that one of the main quests in the Sentinels pack storyline isn't Epic, but the side quest is Epic?

First of all, I would like to thank you for this, I really appreciate and makes me feel our toughts are important. I think it's never too late for a good thing, and this level of communication is a great thing to please the customers.

I havn't put much time into it, but my awnsers are colored in the quote.

[Perryc]

Is DDO too easy? too hard? just right?

This is not an easy question to answer. Some quests are easier than they should be, others are much harder, and some are jsut fine. To put it another way, the content is not balanced. The only way to appreciate the differences is to run through all of the content with a veteran player/group. I'm about to start another 2xTR to take advantage of the bravery and holiday XP bonuses, although I'm sure there are other players that would be willing to step up ... :D

[nibel]

I just skimmed through the topic. Probably I'll repeat what someone already said.


What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

As a whole, I would put DDO on the "newbie friendly" zone. Sure, endgame requires some gear, but we have very few quests where completion on normal is not guaranteed, no matter the group. Farming gear is relativelly easy compared to other games, and the Store is good without being essential (so, the game isn't pay to win). Even with the changes to Shroud, the game is still fairly easy on general.


If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

The worst parts are when you change from an "old pack" to a "new pack". The last parts of Tangleroot is theoretically done on level 6-7 range. Sharn Syndicate is a level 4 chain and is much harder than it.

Old packs were buildt with some loot in mind. New packs are build with the new power creep in mind (power creep is unavoidable in any updating game, thanks for keeping them slow enough), like khortos sets.

We can set paralels through the whole game. Gianthold is easier than Plaza, Sorrowdusk is easier than Fens, STK is easier than Carnival. Tangleroot is easier than Sentinels.


What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I think that any party should still be capable to complete any quest on normal, no matter what. Hard should see some failures if the team is unprepared, and Elite should see some failures sometimes even on the most prepared teams.

Raids are a separate topic. We need to remove the tinted glasses and admit that level 20 toons are running it. Since when the cap raised, very few people expect to run VoN 5 at level. Much less on elite. "If the opportunity appear, I'll jump on it, but not a priority". I think normal raids should be balanced for at level parties, but Hard and Elite could be balanced for higher level parties. Eg, VoN should be level 10 normal, 14 hard, 18 Elite. And give some incentive to run even the pre-raids on raised difficulty. Maybe elite only can drop one raid chest with Normal drops. Of course, this would requires the completion of pre-raid to start the timer on VoN and Titan. (DQ already have something like that)

And of course, please, remove the raids from the bravery bonus. This is basically killing almost all at-level raid pugs.


We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Yes, you are balancing the game for the uber players. I have absolutelly no problem with it - IF that was set to hard and elite settings. Changing Normal to set with the new power level of the random player is good (like raising Splinterskull to Carnival levels), but there is no reason for a random beholder on a level 11 quest hit you for unavoidable 180 damage (successful save on finger of death)

And yes, the game is too easy for anyone reasonably geared. That's why you should incentive them to play on elite for a challenge. See Reaver's Refuge for an example of how not do things. Everyone run it only on casual for a good reason.


Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Specific quests: In the Demon's Den is the most perfect quest on DDO when you talk about difficulty scaling. Sure, the mobs are beefed up, but no one enter it on elite saying "beware the fortified mobs". Difficulty scaling should be more like that. To the point where they can be called 3 separated quests with the same map.

A Small Problem is another hit on the nail. The extra mobs only appear on Elite/Epic, but they change the quest enough to be an extra challenge.

Lord of Blades is a great example of a hard quest done right. It's not "MOAR HP". It requires tactics, timing, knowledge, and preparation. More quests should require this.

Specific mechanics: Guild buffs. All your low level experience changes A LOT depending if you have ship buffs or not. A +2 to hit, +4 damage, and resists on a capped toon is one thing. The same buffs on a low levle toon basically turn it into a god.

let's do some basic math. A 16 str level 2 fighter have +5 to hit. Add khortos set khortos googles, and +2 str (+1 khortos necklace, +1 fighter enhancement), and this up to +9. He deal ~1d8+4 damage per swing. Add 1d6 from flaming just because we can. This turns into ~12 damage average.

Now let him into a massive ship buff festival. He gets +4 damage (1 str shrine, 1 kobold, 2 hobgoblin), +3 AC, +4 to-hit (kobold, str shrine, dummy), resist 30 to all elements, +2 to all saves (+1 from kobold, +1 from con/dex/wis shrines), and tons of skill buffs.

Anything that is moderatelly challenging for the unbuffed fighter will be boring for the buffed one. This is a wide gap, and any difficulty balance at low-mid levels should ask if they need ship buffs or not. If they need, any unguilded player is facing a harder game. If don't, the guilded ones will think the game is too easy.

The best solution is limiting the ship buffs in some way. I have no idea how, I'm just throwing the rant on the wind.

[BadBuy]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

I started playing the game not so long ago, so I still remember how it was back then. Puged and soloed up to level 20 (since I was f2p I completed the slayers in the vale and other places). Played a Ranger so the limited self healing abilities were quite usefull. So overall the difficulty of it all is ok. I didn't think it was too hard.

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

The real problem is that later in the game it get's more complex than "smash and bash". It may be something simple as "carry a restoration potion and this won't be a problem", but the new players need to be forced to read or learn some key things. Because even after reaching lvl 20 I didn't know much about basic "self preservation". The real problem is not the actual difficulty, but the knowledge gap: most new players don't read the forums or DDOWiki and are clueless about how things work.

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

As mentioned before you should be able to succeed IF you use your head. You can be wilard with a Greataxe till about level 7 and do quite good, but that doesn't mean that you should blame the game difficulty for that tactic no longer working. I really don't think that letting players get to lvl 14+ without knowing about the most important potions, game mechanics and self preservation is a good idea. Then they start getting some gear, go play with the big boys and... "I keep dying and can't do everything by myself it must be too hard because I did so well before and could just smash through any quest". Encourage, no, make them learn how the game works before reaching the end game. You will be doing them a favor and they will see that in most cases it's not that hard.
For those that want to always win without any endeavor there is Progress Quest. ;)

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

Seriously - Progress Quest. You CAN'T loose there. Nothing more boring or pointless. Some of the most fun and educating quests were those that were failed. I'd choose a Fligh simulator over a Train driver simulator any day.
Where would the no failure limit be? Hard? Elite? Epic? People have to be able to fail otherwise there is no point to become better. This is not a lame game where you just put on gear and mash attack and spell buttons. I play DDO because it's much more. DDO is using knowledge about the enemies, spells and items in your possesion, it's about using tactics and quick action game reflexes and much more. If you remove these you will make it more like other games out there. Remove the knowledge and thinking and you will be competing with Diablo. I loved Diablo 1&2 in it's time for relaxation because because it was quick action, feeling of great power with no brains required. I really don't think that DDO should get a lobotomy. Teach the new players instead.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

I don't think there are many major problems with game difficulty, but there are some:
Class ballance should be addressed because instakilling Arcanes are the only real scroll farming choice for a reason. The gap starts widening after lvl 10 and is especially affected by gear.
People don't use their heads, they don't want to learn, but they still want to be uber - so they want the game to be easier. This game is not WoW gear is not everything here.
I agree that Epics should either have grades: lvl 21 for House P and D, lvl 23-25 for Sands or all be made the same HARDER difficulty. I fully agree that it should be something to strive for, something for truly the best of the best. Am I the best of the best? H*ll no! But I wan't to try to become one. Being able to do it after less than half a year takes the point out of playing further. Why continue if you can already accomplish what is meant for "the best fo the best"? Congratulations you won DDO! Where will you go to seek new challenges?

I agree with Casual being a solo/walk in the park for a party difficulty. Scale it reasonably according to party size. Casual Solo should be about as difficult as Normal in a party.
Normal is not easy! Normal is normal! It shouldn't be hard, but shouldn't be too forgiving either. You do something very stupid=you die. Death is a traumatic, but educational experience.
Hard should give all groups at level a hard time and failing should be quite likely if people are not using all of their strengths - teamwork, knowledge, reflexes and others.
Elite should be truly difficult. Not properly (allround) prepared groups should meet their death here.
Epic - can we all really be "the best of the best"? Kinda looses it's point then doesn't it? Sadly too many people want to feel that they are "teh uberz" even if they have no idea how to cure a mummy rot.
Overall I would suggest kepping the current gap between casual and normal and making the other gaps bigger. If grading difficulty 1 to 10. 10 being the highest:
Casual - 1-1,8
Normal - 2
Hard - 5
Elite - 8
Epic - 12

Soloing is good, but if you want to solo all the time why are you playing an MMORPG? Here Teamwork is key and one person does not a team make. There are lot's of single player RPGs with better graphics, increadible storylines, great replayability value and...they're oriented towards solo play. Asking an MMORPG to be 100% solo friendly is asking more than for DDO to balance everything for PvP.

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

Replies in the quote.

[Phemt81]

Yes it appears from where Im sitting that you guys keep adjusting the game to suit a very small group of people.

I play a ton. Probably more than most, but not near as much as some. I know the game well enough and now have my toons geared ENOUGH to start running epics. But there have been unintended consequences to making the game more of a challenge to 'that group' of players: Most Epic LFM's require epic gear to run epic content. That ruins it for 'new to epic' players to get into epics.

Most folks playing this game do not have a large guild to make guild runs with, therefore they have to pug epic content and raids.

While I can run some epic content with my guild mates(3 of us total) and none of us have a single epic piece of gear, I personally still can't get into PUG epics because of the requirements (unintended consequences).

As far as a specific quest: You guys ruined NORMAL Shroud. Unintended consequence: Greensteel and epic gear and over 400 HP's are now an accepted REQUIREMENT to run the raid........ON NORMAL. Hard and elite? Sure. They are dame difficult to run and should be. To get into the high end content to include epics, you should strive to get to making GS weapons and items.

Most hi end raid LFM's anymore specifically state "No new people" or "no non GS or Epic geared NOOBS" etc.........

After constantly looking since the content first came out, I was finally allowed into my first Master Artificer raid last night.

I know that you guys aren't purposely trying to exclude any group of players, but the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES are there and are hurting the game.

In the last 48 hrs I have only seen 3 or 4 Shroud LFM's up on Argo. Im sure there were more up at different times, but before the last update, there was constantly 1 or 2 LFM's up at any given time, all of the time.

I usually lead Shroud and constantly accept new people. I have no problem teaching the raid. New people to the raid and or the game are afraid to speak up do to the UNINTENDED consequences of making the game harder for a select few.

When you make certain changes, it causes a select few people to turn into complete idiots because they are afraid of failure. "new to the raid? You can't join because I don't hold hands".

There are side effects to every change that you make.

I think the worst thing about that is that the "old people" (if this is offensive, ban me please!) do not seem to get it.

[Phemt81]

i really don't think that ddo should get a lobotomy.

Welcome to my sig :D

[pjstechie]

There are only 2 things i find askew with game difficulty.

The first are the places of low forgiveness - really low forgiveness. Best example of this is the abbot - the old version of ice puzzle and still currently goggles. Both of these puzzles involve a high degree of twich movements and coordination - and 1 misstep or hitch and DING! This is too low of tolerance imho. They are great puzzles, just 1 mistep and its over and you either 1) restart the raid (most peoples choice) or go through another draining battle to try again...and if you fail you are again faced with the same dilemma.

The second place is where a quests realtive difficulty suddenly spikes. 3 places come easily to mind: exploding bats in VoD, the quori mobs in LoB (more so on harder difficulties), and the end fight of New Invasion. Each of these phases of the quest are significantly more difficult than what comes before - and whats worse is that they are at the end. The easiest place to wipe and its after you spend upwards of an hour forming, doing the quest.

otherwise the variation in difficulty seems appropriate accross the board. Different difficulties are noticeably harder, raids are easily puggable on normal, perhaps more raids would like to see an increase in rewards like the shroud did on higher difficulties, but quests in general have a HUGE xp bonus now on those difficulties.

disclaimer: power end gamer

[Sarisa]

Escort missions should always be of the form of Power Play and never of the form Threnal. If Power Play was an experiment, please make a note: huge success.

Good escorts: Power Play, Last Stand, the new version of Gladewatch Outpost (social skills can keep her back, just ignore the horrible experience), Epic Small Problem, Assault on Summerfield.

The mobs are either invulnerable, are incredibly durable, or you have ways to control them. The escorts usually happen early enough in the quest to not waste much time if you fail.

Bad escorts: Threnal (all three, but especially Hold for Reinforcements), Ritual Sacrifice, Elite Small Problem.

Your charge is able to be 1-shotted, or the escort happens very late in a long quest, and will cause a failure wasting upwards of an hour of time.

It's incredibly easy to fail Elite Small Problem because of the Messenger of Pits level drain on hit proc, when it's unlikely that the average player will have access to Deathward (Deathblock does NOT work) when done at bravery level. Not everyone has Tangleroot, and not everyone is lucky enough to pull multiple Visors of the Flesh Render Guards. Brawnpits is also rather fragile (unlike his stats on epic).

[BitkaCK2]

Howdy,
I did a full read of the first 11 pages but skimmed the last few because it's a lot of reading, I've been at it for almost 2hrs and Skyrim awaits.

Couple quick thoughts
1) Quest inconsistency - Very frustrating. Yes I expect a jump in difficulty when they are labelled as challenging so please only make average-to-average and challenging-to-challenging comparisons when addressing this issue.

2) Raid accessibility - Normal at level raids should be accessible for normal at level players.

3) Party (dungeon) scaling - This is a tricky on. I've seen folks advocating getting rid of dungeon scaling. It may have issues but I don't want to have to join a party just to run a normal quest. Now I've read the "this is an MMO get over it" for the past couple of years and you may be right but my "getting over it" will send me elsewhere. I'm not sure exactly how it works but the specific instances where 6-man runs are avoided in favor of 4-man runs should be addressed rather than dumping the whole system.

In closing a quick story of The Cursed Crypt nightmare my friend and I had recently. The quest is labelled as challenging but me as a level 14 HotD pally and my friend as a WF 12 AM wiz/2 rog figured we could handle it with a couple of SP battery hirelings. Three hours, 5 wipes later, 1000+pp repairs later I was ready to run screaming from my apartment looking for small woodland creatures to strangle. We read the wiki. We had a vague idea what to do and came up with a plan. We get to the prison cells looking for the key and lo and behold open one with Silver Flame dudes that we aren't supposed to kill. Okay, hirelings to passive I charge in, intimidate and turtle. He paralyses them... after a few attempts because they kept saving. Okay cool, back into the hallway and close the door to lock them in... oh wait... So yep great plan in the crapper, meanwhile they follow us and get dead fighting at the alter in the other wing. On normal. Over leveled. This is where a simple tweak like being able to close the cell doors rewards strategy without messing with mob AI/HP/fort/SR/blanket immunities/etc. To me that should be the kind of thing that separates average from challenging quests.

ttfn,
bitkaCK2

[Credinus]

Please, PLEASE, read over everything sirgog posted and mull on it for a while. I don't disagree with a single thing he said, and he said a lot; it's probably the most accurate detailing of where the existing problems are and what can be done to fix it.


On a side note, there's something else I'd like to chime in on as far as casual/sololable difficulties go... There are players (myself included) that actually enjoy the storylines in the quest arcs. Something you guys could really work on is making sure that quests with storylines attached are actually soloable. I missed out on so many story points and references by grouping that it really disappointed me. When you group, there's a) the problem of only one person getting to talk to most of the NPC's to read the dialog and b) groups want to rush through a quest, not wait for you to read through stuff and explore it all.

A perfect example is Chronoscope. Having been away from the game for a long while and recently coming back, I've done three Chronoscope runs. My first two were done roughly at-level with groups, and I didn't catch any of the cool references there because of it. Then at level 16, while bored because there's apparently never any good PUGs for that level on Sarlona during the times that I play, I decided to clunk my way through Chronoscope for fun. It was awesome to see all the references to other storylines in the game, like Velah up in the tower for instance.


That's really one of my big beefs with raids, too. There's really cool storylines to be found in them, but you're going to miss out on most of it until you are super epic TR'd and able to solo the normal versions of them. You guys work hard on making cool stories, so do yourselves and us a favor and let us experience them!

[lugoman]

It would be useful if you could post how many LoB's are being run and at what difficulty. The forums are full of people saying they want challenges, but do they actually play the way they say they do on the forums? How many epic master artificer's and LoB's are run on each server?

[soloist12]

I have posted on this subject in length before so let me see if I can sum up my thoughts...

There are a few things here. The most important being that viewing the game as too hard or too easy is simplistic and not the source of the real complaints that you get about difficulty.

The real issues are...


Content is not consistently difficult for it's level or difficulty setting. It is an enormous mistake to have difficulty differences between equal level and equal difficulty setting content. It filters people into easier content and when they hit one of those hard quests it feels like they hit a wall.
Jumps in content difficulty based upon difficulty setting is random and sometimes just plain badly designed for it's level. Into the Flesh on elite is one of the hallmarks of this bad design. It is dramatically harder then alot of other content on elite of it's level range. This was done to cater specifically to players who were annoyed at the easy mode high level quests in IQ and DD that were produced to cater to the opposite side of the player base...both being extremes that did not understand nor care that difficulty level needs to scale upwards as you get higher in level and be consistent so that players feel that they are both being consistently challenged, but not suddenly hitting a brick wall. There are lots of easymode elite ones that I could point out, but I do not really think I need to do that as they are the same issue as the too hard for it's level elites.
Reworking of old favorite quests to make them 'fresh'. Lots of wasted dev time. People like those quests or they would not be favorites. Shroud was the most successful raid made. The only things which should have been touched were the real issues in it having to do with no incentives to run higher difficulties and not monkeying with mechanics in any way shape or form. Another problem with this approach is that it recently (note recently because prior to that it could have been the polar opposite) catered to the same element that thought that Into the Flesh elite was awesome...because they do not actually understand how critically important it is to have content balanced for it's level NOT for level cap.
Dungeon Scaling. This was the worst idea in DDO's history. It made in many places it better to solo then to bring a group which is the opposite of what MMOs are all about and hurts the main sticking point for having people stay...strong connections to the community and other players. It also had a crippling effect on challenge scaling. By making content easier (which is it's direct result not the intended, but impossible to actually achieve goal of making the content equally challenging in a group or solo) it lead to lots of players not having the same scaling challenge that helps prepare them for the harder challenges later in the game (which have scaling removed...). This then makes the wall when they hit it even higher and more frustrating for them. There is also the critical issue that it never worked right and in theory was an idealistic dream that was impossible to implement...so instead of having that equally challenging in a group or solo which could allow the dungeon to be balanced properly for it's level and difficulty rating...instead you got a whole bunch of different challenge levels based upon the group size and composition. Dungeon scaling needs to be removed if you are serious about addressing challenge in the game. Without it's removal it will be impossible to ever balance all the content for it's level and difficulty rating in a comprehensive fashion.
Lag is often the most challenging part of quests and when quest design makes it even more dependant on lag then you have the recipe for annoyance. Instant wipes in raids when someone DC's is a HUGE issue. It killed my enjoyment of raids after too many occurances. Blades in the shroud and abbot in general is another example of design which highlights the issues with lag in the game...shroud blades and the abbot are dramatically easier with less lag and with heavy lag can become incredibly difficult to overcome.
Incentives need to truly scale dramatically based upon difficulty level. That is a real issue that the developers have finally started to pay attention to. The reward/time ratio has to be MUCH higher each difficulty level you go up in a quest/raid. A flat scale does not work (remember harder difficulties take longer to complete in almost all cases). Again the work done so far is encouraging, but much more can be done and should be done.
Epics are the ultimate random developer desire of the moment. It really is frustrating to have a quest change numerous times (through specific or universal changes) in a year. Even more so when it yo-yo's around in difficulty so much that the only conclusion one can draw is that a random dice roller is being used each update to determine it's difficulty. Knock it off. Pick a difficulty for each dungeon and stick with it already.
Mana pots (particularly being available in the store) completely distort endgame play. You can power through stuff you would have failed and people do...sometimes alot.
The spell pass...well that is class balance partly...but it also created a huge power jump for parties in general (particularly all caster parties!). Casters were critical parts of parties before the spell pass. Apparently people were upset that the average number of casters wanted for content was the same as the number of caster classes compared to the total number of classes. It was a mistake to take those complaints seriously unless the developers actually think that some classes should be more desirable then others...if so tell the players so we know to delete our melee non-tanks now.
Unequal difficulty throughout the dungeon. This is a huge one. It's not a huge deal to wipe at the beginning of a dungeon, realize it is too much for the party, and go in on a lower difficulty. It is much more annoying to fairly easily run 40 minutes of a quest and then hit an end fight that is leaps and bounds tougher then the rest of the dungeon.
Some suggestions that may not have been apparent from the above...


Pick a desired success rate for normal/hard/elite based upon certain party criteria which gets higher the higher the difficulty setting and scale challenges of the content to that. My concern is less the particular rate decided on, but more that it is consistent throughout the game. It is desirable to have this success rate scale downwards as you increase in level. At no point in time should higher level characters be considered when balancing. They should have much higher success ratios in lower level dungeons.

My personal example is...normal at level party (always full party), balanced enough to have heals and respectable dps, average non-rare gear has a 80% success rate. This would equate to a near 99% sucess rate for well geared for the level....it's normal after all. Note, the rates given are for mid-level play to endgame play with better rates for lower level parties (balanced by the fact that lower level parties tend to be less skilled).
Hard at level party, balanced with cc if they need it and heals, decent but not really great gear has a 75% success rate. This would equate to near 95% succss rate for a well geared party. Better xp and loot then now.
Elite at level party, balanced, well geared. 75% success rate. So one time out of four they would still fail. That is not easy...actually harder in most cases compared to elite dungeons currently. Much better xp and loot then now.

Epic is special. It is one difficulty setting. Either split it in three (again with heavy duty boosts to loot) settings or have different dungeons set up as different difficulties based upon their listed level (which of course would mean no more lazy button all the same level listed). I prefer the latter with better loot from the higher level ones of course.
Put a three minute shared cooldown on all mana pots. This should reduce the powering through options and allow the developers to finally balance based upon these very powerful items.
Add a save to the new caster dots for half damage.
Never ever again cater to the must have super easy content at high level or must have really super hard content at non-cap players again. Seriously, it has messed the game up enough already. Balance the content consistently for it's level and difficulty setting. If it is easier then the rewards should be MUCH less (difficulty setting).
Do NOT go through the entire game and rework the difficulties of all the quests. Change the level of the quests to reflect their true difficulty. Then go through and make changes on a case by case basis where needed in specific cases...like end fight of elite Into the Flesh which will not make sense no matter what level you set the normal quest to.


Couldn't have said it better. Read it twice, even.

[soloist12]

Things that have always bugged me were:

- Higher difficulty has almost no effect on rewards except in special cases. (why not 3 tempest runes for elite prey?)
- Quest difficulty is way too sporadic and quest situation specific. Normal/Hard/Elite not accurate for a vast amount of quests as a result (In the Flesh, Stealer of Souls, etc). For example, Enter the Kobold: The quest is fairly easy at level for a first life party - until the last room. All of a SUDDEN, you have a red named, with a red named helper, with respawning massive damaging spells, with named fire elementals, in a small room with lava in a relatively smooth going dungeon... Epic fight sure, but how about just stop with the red named kobold? Are all those monsters necessary, really? Maybe add the additional stuff on hard/elite, but then also add more eldritch runes to that chest then to make it WORTH it (ties back to making difficulties worth it, such as 2 ingredients from a hard mode Coalescence Chamber run).
- Dungeon scaling = ruins team play = promotes me soloing as a tr = reduces grouping with new players = turns them off from your game = not good for you. Higher difficulties sometimes benefits from more players, but the rewards don't = rarely happens = loop begins again and is a never ending cycle unless someone breaks apart and does it for "kicks".
- Air Elementals - either revert this change or create an item that we can aquire to get around them. They are NOT fun.
- Casters are now more powerful than the quests were designed for. Melee are appropriate and the caster spell pass was too much. I don't gear my first life fvs because he doesn't need more than a 6 wis item and already does a 19 quest solo in 15 minutes with 200 kills - This is wrong.

The above points chase me away from the game from time to time, as the logic behind them gives me a headache.

[Zargarx]

Difficulty in general is not too bad, but I think there is plenty of room to improve.

Here are a few to be considered:
Dungeon scaling is too high (currently solo is often much to easy as compared with a group). I'd suggest scale the scaling, somewhat on normal up to significantly more so on elite. However, suggest to reduce the impact of hirelings on scaling.

Powerful elemental resist ship buffs at low levels does a major disservice for newer players. Neutering low level quests effectively turns many of them to be very low challenge even on elite. It should be scaled for level like other elemental resists.

The change to lightning bolts for double-strike should be reverted back to single strike for lower levels. Effectively doublestrike = insta-kill (for those without massive ship resist buffs) for most at low levels.

Bravery streak... will be left for another thread

[BitkaCK2]

I have posted on this subject in length before so let me see if I can sum up my thoughts...

There are a few things here. The most important being that viewing the game as too hard or too easy is simplistic and not the source of the real complaints that you get about difficulty.

The real issues are...
-snip-

Dungeon Scaling. This was the worst idea in DDO's history. It made in many places it better to solo then to bring a group which is the opposite of what MMOs are all about and hurts the main sticking point for having people stay...strong connections to the community and other players. It also had a crippling effect on challenge scaling. By making content easier (which is it's direct result not the intended, but impossible to actually achieve goal of making the content equally challenging in a group or solo) it lead to lots of players not having the same scaling challenge that helps prepare them for the harder challenges later in the game (which have scaling removed...). This then makes the wall when they hit it even higher and more frustrating for them. There is also the critical issue that it never worked right and in theory was an idealistic dream that was impossible to implement...so instead of having that equally challenging in a group or solo which could allow the dungeon to be balanced properly for it's level and difficulty rating...instead you got a whole bunch of different challenge levels based upon the group size and composition. Dungeon scaling needs to be removed if you are serious about addressing challenge in the game. Without it's removal it will be impossible to ever balance all the content for it's level and difficulty rating in a comprehensive fashion.
-snip-


With this one point I have to respectfully disagree. If I cannot run a normal quest on my own or if my friend and I are required to have a full group to run a normal quest it disenfranchises the casual player. Yes dungeon scaling needs to be addressed but its removal will alienate and ultimately drive away more players than a "we need a group for this" mechanic will attract. I understand where you are coming from but removing dungeon scaling altogether won't solve the problem. Fixing the scaling is a better solution. It should never be better to run a quest with fewer people but removing the option to do so creates more reasons to not play than it does to play.

ttfn,
bitkaCK2

[fuzzy1guy]

Knowing everything that i know about d&d and ddo. I really don't expect a challenge from 95% of the content. And that other 5% needs to be done by choice. NOT because item X or crafting X is in there and it's considered required to get accepted into groups.

But lately it seems the power gamers are the only ones with any input. And the in game activity from the majority is reflecting that. They don't run the stuff. They don't like wasting their time and resources to end up with nothing just in the off hope that they might eventually get a CHANCE at an item everyone tells them they MUST have.


I can only imagine how unfun some of the latest ddo changes are for anyone with average playtime and moderate gear and skills has become. Shroud, reaver, abbot, lob, ma, epics, epic raids.


Greensteel is a perfect example. Most of the people saying they liked how hard shroud got already had theirs made on a dozen tr characters. And see no irony in denying people for normal shrouds because they don't have greensteel hp items and dr breakers already.......

Epic is another great example. i've actually seen groups deny players because they did not have any epic items showing on myddo..

Is it every group doing this? No.. But it's quickly becomming a majority. must have X hp. must have item X. Must have 40,41,42,43 dc, Must have pots, Wizards only, no sorc, fvs only, no clerics, pure only no battleclerics, byoh, name your seal, name your shard, must be able to solo a tower, must have must do must be....

It's getting rough for anyone but powergamers. Who still don't see much of a challenge because they are powergamers.

[umeannothing]

Knowing everything that i know about d&d and ddo. I really don't expect a challenge from 95% of the content. And that other 5% needs to be done by choice. NOT because item X or crafting X is in there and it's considered required to get accepted into groups.

But lately it seems the power gamers are the only ones with any input. And the in game activity from the majority is reflecting that. They don't run the stuff. They don't like wasting their time and resources to end up with nothing just in the off hope that they might eventually get a CHANCE at an item everyone tells them they MUST have.


I can only imagine how unfun some of the latest ddo changes are for anyone with average playtime and moderate gear and skills has become. Shroud, reaver, abbot, lob, ma, epics, epic raids.


Greensteel is a perfect example. Most of the people saying they liked how hard shroud got already had theirs made on a dozen tr characters. And see no irony in denying people for normal shrouds because they don't have greensteel hp items and dr breakers already.......

Epic is another great example. i've actually seen groups deny players because they did not have any epic items showing on myddo..

Is it every group doing this? No.. But it's quickly becomming a majority. must have X hp. must have item X. Must have 40,41,42,43 dc, Must have pots, Wizards only, no sorc, fvs only, no clerics, pure only no battleclerics, byoh, name your seal, name your shard, must be able to solo a tower, must have must do must be....

It's getting rough for anyone but powergamers. Who still don't see much of a challenge because they are powergamers.


Very well said fuzzy, very well said!

[magnefique]

Sorry NO idea why this posted 2x. see below.

[magnefique]

Long time MMO player, not a PnP D&D player, but someone who is a bit unhappy with the recent ( and not so recent ) MMo releases as they are becoming just far too watered down.

On DDO difficulty: ( Short version )

1. Quest to quest there are unexpected jumps in difficulty, especially as you get up in levels.

2. ** Most important thing to me here **
- Respecing should be almost free with no time limit.
- Respecing should be easy with a clean UI that shows:
a. Feat choices + dependencies + resulting skills / stats
b. Enhancement choices + dependencies + resulting skills / stats
c. at a minimum all you to MAKE ALL CHOICES WITHOUT SAVING ANYTHING PERMANENTLY and see what your char would look like ( skills / stats )

(#2 Long version )
Please note the context above ( why i came here ). To provide more context, lets talk about what is most attractive about DDO - Character customization - Hands down this is the draw for me and for anyone I talk to about DDO ( that and an amazing dungeon crawling experience ).

Now the challenge is it is far too hard to respec characters along the way. TR is great, I am about to do my first one but it is very frustrating to realize how HARD it is to respec as you go. In a game with multi-classing and such flexibility there should be a way that is easy to respec. I am not even talking about costs .....

It is just too difficult. I have a rogue2/wizzy15 and up until level 15 or so I was doing very very well, but I realized i wanted to switch a couple feats around so...

A. It takes 3 days to swap 2 feats
B. Then I need to redo my enhancements, but the UI is just painful, not only do i have to know pre-requisites, you cant fully spec out all your enhancements because of the "spent issue" the fact that you won't have SPENT the proper number of action points until you actually "ACCEPT" the changes... this is horrible.

I think it is pretty well known that often players give up on DDO ( like any game ) and we are talking about difficulty here, I am betting that its not the content, but its the lack of tools and ease of fixing things in your character that really drives people away... I know it almost did it to me several times.

[Targonis]

Another thought on this topic:
Whenever new content comes out without an increase in level cap, that new content will tend to be more difficult for the quest "level" compared to previous content. This is generally to address the desire by the top geared players for more challenge. The problem is that you now have the problem that for a given "level", newer content will be more difficult than older content, and you have no accounting for how good your equipment is when the "level" is decided.

I've said it a few times in this thread, but the only way to address this is to re-visit ALL existing content and assign appropriate levels to the quests based on their difficulty, just for the sake of consistency.

From there, a new rating that I suggested is a "power level" of the characters, which is a combination of race, class, TRing(a character who has TRed will be more powerful), plus the average + rating on equipment(on almost all items, there is a + rating to show how powerful it is). So if a character has +15 rated equipment in all slots, that character will be far more powerful than the same character with +8 as the average of all equipment. To avoid exploits, equipment in inventory that CAN be worn(UMD included) should also be a function of this. This way, you could have ten different level 20 quests, but if the power level rating is 35 on one, and 40 on the other, you KNOW the one with the higher power rating will be more difficult.

There is nothing wrong with expecting that a level 20 raid will EXPECT that you have done at least MANY level 10-16 raids to get equipment there. Epic difficulty expects you to have done SOME raiding, so the character SHOULD have better than the randomly generated loot. Expecting those running epic difficulty to not have run raids just doesn't make sense.

[bigolbear]

I find lvls 1 to 19 offer a sufficient selection of dificulty for a wide player base.

at lvl 20 this changes, as only 1 dificulty is offered: epic.

I would suggest that epic is a seperate tick box to dificulty and simply makes a quest appropriate to lvl 20's. then use the normal hard elite options to select dificulty. (higher drop rates and more epic tokens on harder settings, min 1 epic token from normal and fragments from casual)

This would give the option to add truly mindboglingly epic hard stuff when running 'epic elite' but still let those who just want to gather tokens to TR or are just getting into epic to play on casual or normal mode and have some fun. It would also open up the harder epics for such players.

In addition making all epic loot (shards seals and scrolls) unbound would enable newer players to sell these items and vets to buy them - thus avoiding grind for all and transfering some wealth from old players to new ones.

Id also like to see dificulty selections on explorer areas, as they curently dont have an option. XP should probly remain constant but loot should of course go up with higher dificulties.

In additon to these changes, I find it an issue that high lvl experienced well geared players are trivialising lvl 16 to 19 content for newer players in their groups/raids. This is going to happen to some extent no matter what due to player experience, but as a partial rememdy Id suggest that epic items have their augment slots temporarily disabled when not in epic content. This would atleast reduce the impact gear has on this situation without invalidating the desire to aquire said epic gear.

further regarding epic dificulty:
A giant bag of hit points is not a good way to make things more challenging, it simply leads to a battle of attrition and feels more 'wow' - long drawn out fights where the skill likes in watching the timers/cooldowns.

In order to make things harder, have the enemies hurt us more. debuff us more, dispell us more. make the threat greater, not the time. make us play on the ball.


regarding mana pots:
many feel casters are overpowered, i think this is noticable that this perception changed with the additoon of DOTS and store mana pots, which combined give casters sustainable damage. The DOTS arent realy the issue in my opinion although i wouldnt be averse to a save for half damage, store mana pots however should have some limitations such as cooldown or decreasing effectiveness (ie first pot you drink in a quest gives full amount, second gives half, third gives a third) This would go a long way towards balance which affects dificulty.

[mobrien316]

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.


It always irritates me when people complain about how the game is too easy. If I felt the game was too easy to run on my multi-TR, ubertwinked character, I would TR him again into a weaker build, or roll up a new character and see if the game was more of a challenge with a fighter with 14 STR and 12 CON. Or roll up a wizard with 14 INT, or a sorcerer with 14 CHA. They would be more challenging to play. What I wouldn't do is complain that the game was too easy.

Normal difficulty should be able to be successfully completed by 28-point characters with normal gear. Stupid play should certainly cause death, but a normal effort by a normal at-level character with normal gear should result in a successful completion.

I'm sure there will be people who respond by boasting of soloing their 28-point character with no gear and no pots and one arm tied behind their back through every quest in the game on elite while two levels under; there always is. But they are certainly not representative of the majority of players.

I think if elite quests are made much more difficult, that would be fine. They should be much more difficult than normal, and if your party of (for example) 6th level characters completes a 6th level quest on elite that should be a huge accomplishment.

In other words, in my opinion, the difficulties should be something like this:
Normal - completely achievable by first life, 28-point characters with no GS or other raid loot
Hard - more difficult, but still achievable by a group who works together and has some moderate gear
Elite - very difficult, successful completions only achievable by well-built characters who work together as a team.

At the moment, in general I feel that at-level normal is often a bit too hard for at-level first life characters, while elite is often too easy for TR'd characters with GS and other raid loot. The opposite should be true. If at-level first life characters find Normal a bit too easy, that is far better than them finding it a bit too hard. And multi-TR'd characters should find elite to be a challenge, which they often don't. Elite should be so hard that a first life character has little to no chance of successfully completing, and well-geared TR's have to work at it.

If you are one of the totally awesome players who find yourself soloing epic quests on auto-attack and complaining that the game is too easy, please reroll your character into a 8 bard/6 sorcerer/6 wizard with 8 CHA and 8 INT. If you still find the game too freaking easy you are just too godlike for a game mere mortals were meant to play and should probably go elsewhere.

Cheers!

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I've been playing for several months now, so I'm new enough to still be going through many missions for the first time, but also long enough in the tooth to have gone through some missions multiple times. In case it helps in "framing" the context in which I'm drawing conclusions, I play solo exclusively, as I like taking my time and exploring (exploring is a key part of what I like about the game), and often real life will take me away from the keyboard, with little advance notice.

Other background information: I play missions on normal or casual difficulty, except when over-leveled enough to play on hard or elite (for favor). Old Grey Garl and a particularly long invasion mission (level 7 or 8, I forget which) involving giants and other humanoids, with an initially invulnerable end boss who traps you in the cave are the missions which stand out for me as frustrating in the end-battle mechanics -- you take a loooong time to get to the end, then you're trapped and fighting a boss that's considerably more difficult than for all preceding fights.

What influences mission difficulty? -- It seems like knowing the quest has the single biggest influence on mission difficulty -- with "knowing the quest" referring to knowing the physical layout in which the mission takes place, knowing where levers and clickies are, and how to use them, knowing where mobs spawn (and respawn), knowing trap locations, and knowing about the composition of mob types and how they are mixed together. Then, a general understanding game mechanics and the characteristics of particular mobs has the second biggest influence on mission difficulty. After that, having suitable gear becomes the key influence on difficulty. These statements seem generally true, although probably not always true.

A few implications and thoughts follow, based at least loosely on the above observations:

Dungeon randomization -- If you want "elite" missions to pose a challenge to more experienced players, then it would be helpful to have a significant amount of dungeon randomization. You could try that out with a couple of less popular F2P missions first, to get a feel for how to do that in a way that raises the "challenge" bar, without becoming unfair and annoying, then with a new adventure pack once you're more comfortable with how it's being implemented, and then roll it out more broadly -- without forcing it into every mission, which would take too long and not necessarily be loved by all players anyways, even if some value it. Dungeon randomization is one the very best antidotes to the potential boredom of grinding, as well as bringing back into play one of the most crucial influences on mission difficulty (ie: the extent to which a player "knows" a mission before entering it).

Trapping players and a sudden difficulty increase at the end of a long mission -- I've taken over an hour and a half and failed on missions before, which is indeed frustrating; situations in which you're suddenly trapped in a confined space, without warning, and the scale of difficulty of the ensuing encounter suddenly rises far beyond anything you've seen in that same dungeon, are even more frustrating -- it can at times be difficult to even see what's happening, so you can react. It is even more annoying when encounter difficulty suddenly rises up like a sheer cliff standing in front of you, after you've been confined in a small place, after you just spent one hour plus wending your way through a dungeon. I know it might be a bit of a compromise, with regard to the experiences the source materials can be used to provide, but consider not putting all three of these design choices together (trapped player, large encounter difficulty increase, at the end of a long mission) overly often.

Mission length and timing -- I've taken over two hours on a new mission before, multiple times, which is a big commitment out of one's day. I like exploring, very much, but a fair number of missions seem to put a little more emphasis on providing a memorable, even epic experience than many players will want to have. Whether or not I'll have time to finish has been a question I've needed to ask myself many times more than I would like to ask, and in a way that increases the difficulty (I feel the need to rush, which I'd rather not do because it cuts into my enjoyment and I sometimes make mistakes and fail missions because of it). Consider having shorter missions in sufficient numbers to allow a little more flexibility for fitting in a fun mission. Having some epic missions is a great thing, though, so please don't remove or significantly shorten the mission length for content you've already got in the game. The challenges are a good step in that direction, by the way, and that was a key reason why I bought that pack.

Hopefully this feedback helps, and thank you for asking.

[Jendrak]

......We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!.....

Just saw this thanks to another post (dont know how I missed it:confused:) and would like to adress this alittle.

While there was a cry a few years ago about the "easy button" you need to look at what that cry was in regards to. It had nothing to do with the mechanics of any quest but rather a percieved "dumbing down" of the current content via mechanincs like casual difficulty and the removal of the very old xp system where bonus xp was given for doing quests under lvl. While the intent was to improve solo play for those that wanted it and I have no idea why the decision to jack with the exp was made (im gonna guess so that people would be forced to buy adventure packs due to "lack of xp" :rolleyes:) there was a secondary affect. People started taking the easy way out. With no incentive to "challange your self" or any real payoff for doing so quest chains like Deleras went from the standard group of lvl 5-6 running it on elite for the big bonus to players running everything +1 lvl over the quest. This made the current content way to easy.

The other objection to the easy button was the implimentation of the DDO store. Which I understand there isnt much to be done about now (and the bean counters would have a stroke at the mere thought of removing it). In either case whoever made the call to start randomly screwing with things that were/werent brokne to begin with and try to hide behind our words, even though this is clearly a case of we said one thing and you (Turbine) heard another, should be smacked around a little bit (no real damage just a few....love taps :D)

On the plus side with the addition of the bravery bonus there is atleast some reason now (other than favor) to try and run everything elite. However, the damage has been done as even with that people (espically TR's) are simply running things at lvl now instead of 1 over. Is there anyway of "fixing" this? I don't think so other than maybe blending the very old xp system and the bravery bonus as the revolt for complely removing bravery would be legendary.

Again for clarification the crys of "easy button" had nothing to do with the quests themselvs but rather the "policy" changes being made to the game at the time.

[LOOON375]

Guild renown end reward should also reflect difficulty. Finishing an elite quest only to be rewarded with a heroic deeds at the end is lame.

[glouky]

The difficulty is globally too low.

For new players: I remember loving the game when it was launched. With hirelings, no more XP lost on death, crazy gears, casual difficulty and so on, it has become way too easy... however, I don't care as I'm not a new player anymore.

For me: just leveling is no more an interesting challenge, just a matter of time to hallenge VSspend. I needed to find new challenges (full solo without gear, play all quest ASAP I can open, and now get the longest solo elite streak -- not like MrCow, but more than 200).

What would be nice is to favor challenges VS wasting time doing always the same things. Here is a couple of ideas:
* replace the increase of requiered XP for TRs by changing the XP malus due to level difference : level 20 is always 1.9M XP, for computing the malus, add +1 for TR1, +2 for TR2, +3 for TR3, +4 for higher TRs to the character level before comparing with quest level. This really restore some challenges.
* restore XP penalty for death and TRs
* friendly fire would be ultimate (as a quest opening option).
* minimal level for gear should be the max between object level and the character level when it is looted (not all lvl 11 with GS items)

To conclude: at the begining, what made DDO really unique compared with other MMOs was the challenge (not just get XP to kill one mob, but do a quest, manage the mana and skills, etc.). It is good to make it easier to start for beginers, but it would be nice to keep many challenging things for more ancien players.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The difficulty is globally too low.

For new players: I remember loving the game when it was launched. With hirelings, no more XP lost on death, crazy gears, casual difficulty and so on, it has become way too easy... however, I don't care as I'm not a new player anymore.

...

To conclude: at the begining, what made DDO really unique compared with other MMOs was the challenge (not just get XP to kill one mob, but do a quest, manage the mana and skills, etc.). It is good to make it easier to start for beginers, but it would be nice to keep many challenging things for more ancien players.
Your observations don't match my own, at all, concerning the "global" difficulty level.

I hope that the developers don't take from this thread the notion that they need to "toughen up" the new player experience; they're probably drive away a goodly percentage of new players, if they made that choice.

I'm not a vet, so I won't comment on what veteran players would like to see.

[arkonas]

ok my personal thought is that normal should be left alone for the sake of the new casual player to ddo or the ones who need to get flagged or get a item for a raid. they should not be made harder by any means. if you want to attract people to the game this should be the option they can play and get to know the quests. for the uber players hard and elite is where its at for them. make it challenging but not where you will fail 75% time.

[mobrien316]

The difficulty is globally too low.

For new players: I remember loving the game when it was launched. With hirelings, no more XP lost on death, crazy gears, casual difficulty and so on, it has become way too easy... however, I don't care as I'm not a new player anymore.

If you find casual too easy, or questing with hirelings too easy, then don't do quests on casual and don't use hirelings. That seems more logical than saying the entire game is too easy because some people can do quests on casual and can use hirelings, and you think that makes it too easy for them. Some people enjoy questing on casual and enjoy using hirelings, and prefer to play the game that way. It is probably better for the game if people who want "casual" play can get it, and people who want "epic" play can get that, too.

"Casual" should be easy. Elite and epic should be insanely difficult.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes it appears from where Im sitting that you guys keep adjusting the game to suit a very small group of people.

I play a ton. Probably more than most, but not near as much as some. I know the game well enough and now have my toons geared ENOUGH to start running epics. But there have been unintended consequences to making the game more of a challenge to 'that group' of players: Most Epic LFM's require epic gear to run epic content. That ruins it for 'new to epic' players to get into epics.

Most folks playing this game do not have a large guild to make guild runs with, therefore they have to pug epic content and raids.

While I can run some epic content with my guild mates(3 of us total) and none of us have a single epic piece of gear, I personally still can't get into PUG epics because of the requirements (unintended consequences).

As far as a specific quest: You guys ruined NORMAL Shroud. Unintended consequence: Greensteel and epic gear and over 400 HP's are now an accepted REQUIREMENT to run the raid........ON NORMAL. Hard and elite? Sure. They are dame difficult to run and should be. To get into the high end content to include epics, you should strive to get to making GS weapons and items.

Most hi end raid LFM's anymore specifically state "No new people" or "no non GS or Epic geared NOOBS" etc.........

After constantly looking since the content first came out, I was finally allowed into my first Master Artificer raid last night.

I know that you guys aren't purposely trying to exclude any group of players, but the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES are there and are hurting the game.

In the last 48 hrs I have only seen 3 or 4 Shroud LFM's up on Argo. Im sure there were more up at different times, but before the last update, there was constantly 1 or 2 LFM's up at any given time, all of the time.

I usually lead Shroud and constantly accept new people. I have no problem teaching the raid. New people to the raid and or the game are afraid to speak up do to the UNINTENDED consequences of making the game harder for a select few.

When you make certain changes, it causes a select few people to turn into complete idiots because they are afraid of failure. "new to the raid? You can't join because I don't hold hands".

There are side effects to every change that you make.
Just because LFMs are barring people doesn't mean the content has been adjusted out of range for more casual players. For instance, The Shroud didn't change at all for about a year after the level cap went from 16 to 20, but all the LFMs for The Shroud went from 12-16 to 18-20. It's almost impossible to form an at-level Shroud (16-18), and that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the raid, especially when considering how much power characters have received since The Shroud was released.

You say you run your own Shrouds wherein you accept new players, right? How often do you fail those? Is it too difficult to complete with a few new people in the mix?


I have to add to my previous comment after some further comments that elite quests (not raids) SHOULD be soloable by a well geared and skilled player.

With the current game set up for favour rewards and how XP works and the amount of XP needed for someone with multiple lives I personally would find it annoying as heck to have to group with people just to run elite content and run the same content multiple times.

As it stands, elite is fairy easy to solo (for someone well geared and knows the quest) until about level 14 then gets way too time consuming, and soloing elite in any quest with undead in it is something I do not like to do, hence I avoid the necropolis like the plague.

So in regards to elite quests (not raids) I say tone it down a little for solo play at higher levels, and make it more accesable for any class that wants to solo it, melee or caster.

Or, if DDO's intention is to make elite only playable with a group please rework how favour rewards work as it is not possible or enjoyable for me to find a group to run every quest on elite for house favour.
Elite should definitely NOT be easy to solo. It's elite! Just because it can be soloed doesn't mean it should be designed for that.

If you don't like playing with others, there are other difficulty settings for you. This is an MMO, not a single-player game. Yes, the devs have made concessions to the soloing crowd that have come over from games like WoW that heavily emphasize such things, or people who simply don't have time to be grouping, or who can't for some reason or another, and I think some of that is fine, but the whole game doesn't need to be sacrificed to that crowd. You have Casual and Normal, which should both be fairly easy to solo, and on top of that you have dungeon scaling making things even easier.

You shouldn't get to have dungeon scaling, solo-friendly quests that award the top-tier of XP and rewards. If you don't want to repeat quests, join a group, buy some XP potions or meet the challenge that is elite.

The overall difficulty level is fine.

One problem is that somebody in charge somewhere has confused tedium and frustration with difficulty. Case in point: air elementals for melees. They are in no way a test of skill. They're just tedious.

Escort missions should always be of the form of Power Play and never of the form Threnal. If Power Play was an experiment, please make a note: huge success.
Agreed.

[muffinlad]

There are only 2 things i find askew with game difficulty.

The first are the places of low forgiveness - really low forgiveness. Best example of this is the abbot - the old version of ice puzzle and still currently goggles. Both of these puzzles involve a high degree of twich movements and coordination - and 1 misstep or hitch and DING! This is too low of tolerance imho. They are great puzzles, just 1 mistep and its over and you either 1) restart the raid (most peoples choice) or go through another draining battle to try again...and if you fail you are again faced with the same dilemma.

The second place is where a quests realtive difficulty suddenly spikes. 3 places come easily to mind: exploding bats in VoD, the quori mobs in LoB (more so on harder difficulties), and the end fight of New Invasion. Each of these phases of the quest are significantly more difficult than what comes before - and whats worse is that they are at the end. The easiest place to wipe and its after you spend upwards of an hour forming, doing the quest.

otherwise the variation in difficulty seems appropriate accross the board. Different difficulties are noticeably harder, raids are easily puggable on normal, perhaps more raids would like to see an increase in rewards like the shroud did on higher difficulties, but quests in general have a HUGE xp bonus now on those difficulties.

disclaimer: power end gamer

Agree with this (It nearly made me cry).

A) Get rid or reduce as many Twitch Fails as possible. Game is too laggy still, and the skill level of players is too varried. One person failing = 11 other people having poor experience is never what you want to do.

B) Get rid of or reduce "Difficulty Explosions". Start off hard, and then go soft if you must...but hopping though the land of poppies, one will be surprised and angred when the death ray suddenly reduces the party to a smoking ruin. Start off with the death ray, so folks can reform and learn to bring their tin foil death ray reflecting hats.

Normal should NOT be made harder, and I say that as someone who tries to always play Hard or Elite. The game is not just about ME (6years of play)...but about the folks that have been here 6 days as well.

muffinspoke

[~Cavalier9999]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?


Most are fine from level 1 to 17 or so. Some of Amrath is over the top on elite. Shroud blades need to be scaled down.

Abbot needs major work. Lower the Abbot hp a bit on all levels. Revise tiles completely. Too often you see ice complete, roids complete, wait 5 more minutes while they study the tiles, then ding, recall, reform. Yeah, that's fun. If it is going to be a choke point, put it at the beginning and make it resolve more quickly.





What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?



Normal should be pretty easy and almost no fail. Sometimes you just want the xp or loot or to just socialize a bit. Save the challenge for elite or running quests above your level.




I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.



Yes, failure is annoying. If you are reaching it is expected and the risk is part of the fun. But on normal it sucks.




We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'



Yes, it is too much uber-ville at the moment. Work on the variety of difficulty. Normal on all quests should be pugable at level virtually no-fail (change Abbot). Save the challenge for elite.

Also, epic difficulty should vary. Some can be an uber challenge, but some should be accessible by non-tr's with good raid gear.

[slimkj]

The second place is where a quests realtive difficulty suddenly spikes. 3 places come easily to mind: exploding bats in VoD, the quori mobs in LoB (more so on harder difficulties), and the end fight of New Invasion. Each of these phases of the quest are significantly more difficult than what comes before - and whats worse is that they are at the end. The easiest place to wipe and its after you spend upwards of an hour forming, doing the quest.
To be fair, in New Invasion there are a ton of chances at orange named along the way whose chests drop named loot. When I've farmed for gear in there, I've often got stuff I wanted without even needing to complete. So for that one at least, I think the end fight is ok to be difficult.

Generally speaking, I do dislike the feeling that I've wasted an hour in a tough quest because it spikes at the end and I can understand that it is annoying. But knowledge of the quest and appropriate retooling/spell switching usually sorts that out with some practice.

It is a fairly silly way to think of design though... it's that old end-of-level-boss mechanic some devs (generally in the industry, not just some at Turbine) are still hung up on. Consistent difficulty throughout a play experience seems much more appealing to most, whether they like their difficulty cake or cackyerpants hard.

[fuzzy1guy]

Also. Consider this.

For all the whining about 'easy button' and 'i want a challenge'. Those same people will do everything they can to have their easy button and remove any challenge at all by stacking the party and odds in their favor. Myddoing characters. denying anyone they feel might not be uber. Restrictive and elitest lfms. Expecting and demanding the best. Making fun of anyone who falls short.

And then come here telling everyone how easy everything is. You see it often here.

I'd pretty much ignore anyone who says remove the easy button and they want a challenge. They really don't.

What they say. And what they do. Have little relation to each other for most of the people here.



Why? Well thats a topic for the psychologists. Kinda beyond the scope of a game here.

[sephiroth1084]

Also. Consider this.

For all the whining about 'easy button' and 'i want a challenge'. Those same people will do everything they can to have their easy button and remove any challenge at all by stacking the party and odds in their favor. Myddoing characters. denying anyone they feel might not be uber. Restrictive and elitest lfms. Expecting and demanding the best. Making fun of anyone who falls short.

And then come here telling everyone how easy everything is. You see it often here.

I'd pretty much ignore anyone who says remove the easy button and they want a challenge. They really don't.

What they say. And what they do. Have little relation to each other for most of the people here.



Why? Well thats a topic for the psychologists. Kinda beyond the scope of a game here.
It's possible to have a challenge with a good, strong group, especially in quests that really call for good team play.

Having a difficult time because your group is incredibly weak or cannot communicate/follow directions doesn't necessarily equate to a "challenge" in the sense that people are looking for, and often is not fun.

It is challenging to beat Epic Wiz King with a decent group, especially if you add the caveats of "no mana pot usage" and "in under 45 minutes."

It isn't a challenge to beat Epic Wiz King with a group that consists of a bunch of melees who can't break golem DR, and who can't do more than 5 damage a swing to Raiyum and all have under 350 HP. There is a difference between challenge and misery.

[LucidLTS]

I've gotten fed up with the game over the past few months and have been half-heartedly looking for alternatives, but your willingness to hold this dialog and your apparent ability to do something about it has me cautiously optimistic about the game.

Maybe I'll even go out on a limb and say excited.

You (personally) and MajorMal have a lot of "street cred", if you are both committed to this and have been given enough free reign (this is actually the only thing I question) then I think you can still turn the pig on ice-skates around. And if you can't, well, we'll cheer your attempt and say "Awww, it was Epic anyway and it was supposed to be a challenge"


We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case?
It sure feels this way and it's a real sore spot. Our D&D club joined DDO just over a year ago and 80% have since left. Feeling like they were marginalized because they were not l337 enough was a universal complaint. Case in point is Cannith Crafting - super idea but then ingredients like Soul Gems and favor rewards requiring all Necro quests on elite were added.

I think the game absolutely must offer challenges to (said with great envy) 3rd life tome fattened ship buffed veterans with Dirty Harry reflexes and every trap location and the spell list of every boss memorized (and a TR cache packed with top end gear). I've had an overwhelmingly positive experience with this category of player - the ones who have said anything to me at all have been patient and generous and I want them to keep playing the game and not to be jaded or bitter. But I don't want them to be the standard that difficulty is set by.


What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
0% fail= boring, 25% fail=too frustrating to bother
5% (maybe 10% tops) fail on normal with an "on path" or well built "at level" 1st life shipless untwinked character in an average PUG of similar characters is ideal, slightly higher fail rate is OK on a very few quests or on solo. Decent rewards along the way make failure less painful.

Causal should give a similar fail rate for gimped characters (flavor characters, they are called "flavor characters") or for a decent group below level. Casual should be "almost always win" for decent at level characters.

Hard and Elite should offer all the same loot but with better percentage chances at "the good stuff" but should have higher fail rates for baseline characters - when our static group has plenty of play time and can afford to retry, we shoot for "over our head" stuff and don't mind 3 consecutive failures, we knew what we were getting into.


What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
Quests below 10 or so seem quite good (with a few exceptions like Proof in the Poison), but by 10 or 12 even our static group can take quite a beating on some quests. Not an "I hate this game" beating, but a switch from "yeah no problem if we don't do something stupid" to "Let's really think about this first". Not that this is a big complaint, just an observation that your difficulty curve is steeper than the baseline player advancement curve.

I think a lot has to do with not having great gear - mostly we have what we pull from chests, with a few pieces off the AH funded by collectables we've auctioned. We don't do a ton of farming - Tangleroot for Drowshood or Catacombs for dusts - so we can't afford great gear. Our stuff is good, but it's maybe a couple of levels below what we could be wearing if we had a twink daddy. We have jobs and real lives, we can't afford the time to really grind.

I think the biggest problem for DDO difficulty lies not in quest balance, but in what obstacles are chosen. In a server based game that is subject to lag, the choice of lag sensitive challenges astounds me. Jump skills in The Pit or climbing the pipes in Haywire Foundry, for example, or current targeting mechanics. Make those much more forgiving and let tactics for defeating monsters be the limiting factors. Contrast "Hey, let's buy a stack of Resist Electricity potions and try it again" with "Hey, let's try it again and hope there is no lag" - which do you think is more likely to get a positive response?

Also, any mechanic that prohibits solo play is a huge fail. If the monsters are too tough to solo at level that's fine. Not having enough feet to step on pressure plates is not. Even for people who strongly prefer to group, sometimes they just can't and the more you impose arbitrary restrictions the more likely they are to just switch games, and you can only hope they remember to switch back. Nobody switches games because they had the option to solo a quest and didn't want to, but they sure do switch because they wanted to but you wouldn't allow them to. As long as they are playing there is the chance to join a group.

Thanks for listening, I hope the time I've taken to make this feedback makes a difference.

[grodon9999]

The more I think about it I'd just like to see some more consistency. Lordsmarch elite being harder that GH elite though they are lower leverl, Elite "In the Flesh" being harder than many epics though it's a level 17 quest, etc . . .

Heck, it might just need XP adjustment.

[Hendrik]

MadFloyd;

The answer is in your sig.

No CHALLENGE, no FUN!

Casual: cake walk with very little reward.
Normal: Anyone should be able to complete with a limited understanding of DnD/DDO.
Hard: Should be a challenge.
Elite: Needs to be quite challenging.
Epic: Best of the best as it should be.

Casual and Normal should be able to be completed by just about anyone - horrid character builds not withstanding.

Hard should be the break point where player skill is needed to overcome the challenge. Player skill comes with experience, time and yes, skill is gained by failure.

The longer one has played the more experienced and more skill at playing is gained. This experience is then used to take on tougher challenges and then gain more.

One theme I an constant reading here; Quests are quite difficult without cooperation and teamwork. There is NO coding that can fix that, so don't even attempt it. DDO is not about 6/12 individual hero's it is about the GROUP of Hero's working together.

Maybe it is time to add a new disclaimer to Hard and above? Cooperation and Teamwork Required.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

I think the biggest problem for DDO difficulty lies not in quest balance, but in what obstacles are chosen. In a server based game that is subject to lag, the choice of lag sensitive challenges astounds me. Jump skills in The Pit or climbing the pipes in Haywire Foundry, for example, or current targeting mechanics. Make those much more forgiving and let tactics for defeating monsters be the limiting factors. Contrast "Hey, let's buy a stack of Resist Electricity potions and try it again" with "Hey, let's try it again and hope there is no lag" - which do you think is more likely to get a positive response?

Also, any mechanic that prohibits solo play is a huge fail. If the monsters are too tough to solo at level that's fine. Not having enough feet to step on pressure plates is not. Even for people who strongly prefer to group, sometimes they just can't and the more you impose arbitrary restrictions the more likely they are to just switch games, and you can only hope they remember to switch back. Nobody switches games because they had the option to solo a quest and didn't want to, but they sure do switch because they wanted to but you wouldn't allow them to. As long as they are playing there is the chance to join a group.

Thanks for listening, I hope the time I've taken to make this feedback makes a difference.This post was composed of "pure win", and I went ahead and highlighted the parts of it that spoke most clearly to me.

Allow solo play for all (non-Raid, at least) content that you create, going forward. There is already more than enough gameplay that excludes solo players for reasons that seem arbitrary and pointless, and more of it isn't needed.

[sephiroth1084]

Allow solo play for all (non-Raid, at least) content that you create, going forward. There is already more than enough gameplay that excludes solo players for reasons that seem arbitrary and pointless, and more of it isn't needed.
Usually, the point of these solo unfriendly mechanics is to forcibly split up a full group.

Take Xorian Cipher for instance. Neither the puzzle room nor the room with the 4 named frostmarrows is especially difficult for a full group, but when you have to send just 1-4 people to one side or the other, then you have something challenging.

I think we could use better situations that use these mechanics, as many of them feel rather contrived, but I feel that they serve an important function in the game when used sparingly.

I will say, however, that I think it would be more reasonable for these mechanics to be a little more solo-friendly, such as by having only 2 pressure plates instead of 4, and by having levers that open one side for the other closer together.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Usually, the point of these solo unfriendly mechanics is to forcibly split up a full group.

Take Xorian Cipher for instance. Neither the puzzle room nor the room with the 4 named frostmarrows is especially difficult for a full group, but when you have to send just 1-4 people to one side or the other, then you have something challenging.

I think we could use better situations that use these mechanics, as many of them feel rather contrived, but I feel that they serve an important function in the game when used sparingly.

I will say, however, that I think it would be more reasonable for these mechanics to be a little more solo-friendly, such as by having only 2 pressure plates instead of 4, and by having levers that open one side for the other closer together.
Another way of organizing party splitting would be to allow only one or two characters through a choke point; that would allow groups to be split, without eliminating solo play for those same missions. There's also a story-driven reason for why people setting up traps would want one or two intruders to move forward, while the others are prevented from doing that; splitting a party up is an effective way of weakening it.

Ironically, the example of Xorian Cypher is annoyingly familiar because I set out to run it very recently, and then found out that it can't be solo'd. No warning from the NPC, of course; you generally need to find the wall barring solo play in a given mission or chain of missions by running into that wall.

[voodoogroves]

Another way of organizing party splitting would be to allow only one or two characters through a choke point; that would allow groups to be split, without eliminating solo play for those same missions. There's also a story-driven reason for why people setting up traps would want one or two intruders to move forward, while the others are prevented from doing that; splitting a party up is an effective way of weakening it.

Ironically, the example of Xorian Cypher is annoyingly familiar because I set out to run it very recently, and then found out that it can't be solo'd. No warning from the NPC, of course; you generally need to find the walls barring solo play by running into them.
Just a nit - it can certainly be solo'd, though you won't get all the optionals.

It does require a few tricks though - things a new player wont' know how to do (like backing up archers, etc.)

[jkm]

MF,

I wish you'd give us guidelines of what YOU think the difficulty should be on quests and then let us answer if we find that to be correct.

For example, I think that VON 5 on elite is out of reach for most new rogues until they are level 15 or so. The combination of 37 reflex save for 277 points of damage is just too much.

What would be best is to give us the archetype Quest|Player Type|Quest Type|Difficulty|At Level|Shortman|Class

So for my above example:

VoN5|3TR|Raid|Elite|At Level|Short Man|Rogue -> Challenging
VoN5|2TR|Raid|Elite|At Level|Short Man|Rogue -> Seriously Challenging
VoN5|32 PT|Raid|Elite|At Level|Short Man|Rogue -> Extreme Challenge
VoN5|28 PT|Raid|Elite|At Level|Short Man|Rogue -> Extreme Challenge

Focusing on the 28 Pt build
VoN5|28 PT|Raid|Elite|At Level|Full Party|Rogue -> Extreme Challenge
VoN5|28 PT|Raid|Elite|Level +1|Full Party|Rogue -> Seriously Challenging
VoN5|28 PT|Raid|Elite|Level +2|Full Party|Rogue -> Seriously Challenging
VoN5|28 PT|Raid|Elite|Level +3|Full Party|Rogue -> Seriously Challenging
VoN5|28 PT|Raid|Elite|Level +4|Full Party|Rogue -> Challenging

[sephiroth1084]

Ironically, the example of Xorian Cypher is annoyingly familiar because I set out to run it very recently, and then found out that it can't be solo'd. No warning from the NPC, of course; you generally need to find the wall barring solo play in a given mission or chain of missions by running into that wall.
I'm pretty sure that quests that require X number of players to complete now say so on the quest entrance screen (under the difficulty check boxes).

[LOOON375]

Just because LFMs are barring people doesn't mean the content has been adjusted out of range for more casual players. For instance, The Shroud didn't change at all for about a year after the level cap went from 16 to 20, but all the LFMs for The Shroud went from 12-16 to 18-20. It's almost impossible to form an at-level Shroud (16-18), and that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the raid, especially when considering how much power characters have received since The Shroud was released.

You say you run your own Shrouds wherein you accept new players, right? How often do you fail those? Is it too difficult to complete with a few new people in the mix?


When the majority of the group is experienced, you can get by most of the time. A few new people can be overcome, but at the same time, a mistake by one player (new or experienced) can cause a party wipe. And not because of being new or stupid, but by the blades and the blades alone.

With the blades the way they are right now and you add in some random lag bombs, a certain % of completions can be attributed to just plain blind luck. Same with wipes now. Bad luck plays too much into it.


The shroud wasn't made more difficult. The quest is identical to what it was before the update. The only difference is the blades. That's like making a lower level quest more difficult by making the walls randomly fall on you from time to time with absolutely no defense.

When the environment is causing more wipes than the quest itself, that says everything. Shrouds on Argo have dropped through the floor since the update. Coincidence? I think not.

That is what I would call an "unintended consequence" to trying to make the quest "harder".

My point is that the changes have made it extremely harder for new people to get into the higher content, Shroud included.

A few of my capped toons are pretty well geared. Geared enough to run epics and I am a very experienced player and with numerous types of character classes. I have yet to be allowed into a Lord Of Blades raid, simply because I haven't done it yet. "no first timers". It's all too common to see high level content with those types of requirements and it makes it even harder for new people to get into the higher content.

This is an unintended consequence.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Just a nit - it can certainly be solo'd, though you won't get all the optionals.

It does require a few tricks though - things a new player wont' know how to do (like backing up archers, etc.)
Somebody provided similar help with getting weight on 4 pressure plates at the same time for a Necro 1 mission, which made that AP playable, and now I'll be able to give Xorian Cypher a go.

Thank you for the tip.

[sephiroth1084]

A few of my capped toons are pretty well geared. Geared enough to run epics and I am a very experienced player and with numerous types of character classes. I have yet to be allowed into a Lord Of Blades raid, simply because I haven't done it yet. "no first timers". It's all too common to see high level content with those types of requirements and it makes it even harder for new people to get into the higher content.

This is an unintended consequence.
This is an unintended consequence of what? Designing the LoB to require teamwork and strategy?

In nearly every one of your examples of unintended consequences, the impetus is all on the player side of things. The devs cannot anticipate how players will react to something like that in regards to LFM postings, nor should they.

Here's a similar unintended consequence:
Many players find it more enjoyable to play a melee character or an arcane caster than to play a divine healer. Once those players get good enough, they run many quests on elite shortman, often with LFMs that read BYOH, essentially barring weaker players who cannot support themselves from their groups.

Should elite quests be made to be easier so the weaker players can get into those groups?
Should divines get a tremendous boost to make them more enticing to play? Is there any way to do this that will both entice players otherwise uninterested in playing a healer without totally overpowering the classes for everyone else?
Do healing options need to get much better? Will doing so actually allow those weaker players to catch up, or will it just allow the stronger players to push harder and faster?

The fact is, some people are willing to take inexperienced or undergeared players along and some aren't; some players want to tackle content as fast and smoothly as possible, and some are willing to take a slower approach to it; some are willing to teach and support others, while some are not.

I see plenty of standard Shroud LFMs up these days that make sure to get 2 healers and then take whichever other 10 players hit the LFM. I do those sometimes, and we almost always complete. Sometimes the party make-up just can't cut it.

The blades, barring lag, haven't made The Shroud all that much more difficult...they have just forced players to stop hitting auto-attack before going afk and to actually pay attention to, and react, to their surroundings. The new Shroud requires a little more teamwork and a little more communication and strategy. Not a lot.

[sephiroth1084]

Introduce casual difficulty on raids.

A raid run on casual does not drop any raid loot, does not count as a completion, and does not have a lock-out timer.

The point of running a raid on casual is to have an environment in which you can learn the raid, and as a way for players to experience the story of the raid without having to split their focus so heavily with trying to stay alive and contribute.

For example, The Shroud on casual would drop no small, medium or large ingredients, no power cells, no shards or power and no horns, would not count toward completions for obtaining a Cleanser on a 20th list, and could be run as many times in a day as you choose. Damage and HP on the monsters therein would be much less. The blades would function as they do currently, but would do a pittance of the damage in other difficulties.

[Lence]

Eh....well....I had typed up a nice long winded post with various points and counter points and examples....but the forum timed me out before hitting post and I lost it. So here is the shorts:


1) Difficulty is generally ok.

2) Some quests of equal level are not equally scaled in actual difficulty, especially on hard/elite.

3) The game has historically nerfed player strategy and smart play. D&D is not about narrowminded game play...otherwise it would be called WoW. It should not always be about who swings the hardest and who can nuke more. Smart play, intelligence, and strategy should be just as/if not more important. However, players usually end up getting punished for this.

4) More mob HP/fort is not a fix. Its just a grind of beatdowns. Not fun. Old school example: Skeleton Archers, they have more HP than anything similar and are relatively useless mobs. No one likes spending so much time beating them down, so we run by them. Then you added more of them, or doors that only open once we kill them all, or the infamous dungeon alert mechanic, etc.

5) There are those of us that do want to run a raid 100 times a life to get 1 item to run the next raid 100 times, etc. There are plenty that will, and good for them, I personally just don't care. However, do not just assume that everyone will, and scale everything towards those that do. I won't even run a raid 20 times. The game isn't called Dungeons of Grinding.

[Aashrym]

The fact is, some people are willing to take inexperienced or undergeared players along and some aren't; some players want to tackle content as fast and smoothly as possible, and some are willing to take a slower approach to it; some are willing to teach and support others, while some are not.

The concern I would have is a discrepancy in what is considered under geared for what levels of play and by whom. A lot of the players who complain about not getting into runs are not complaining because it's elite at level. They are complaining because over leveled and over geared players do not let them in to normal runs and the concern is the content actually does require being over geared and over level.

That's why I stated earlier normal should be realistic for what new player will have at those levels and higher difficulties would be there for challenge.

The concern is the devs are actually balancing content that new players cannot even participate in because of the tendency to balance it for geared and experienced players.

I saw another normal shroud requiring 400 minimum hit point characters again last night. The leader has the right to pick and choose who he wants but the message that sends to new players is something I can see as disenheartening and if it were to actually be a necessary requirement very much out of the reach of many if not most of them depending on class at level.

[sephiroth1084]

The concern I would have is a discrepancy in what is considered under geared for what levels of play and by whom. A lot of the players who complain about not getting into runs are not complaining because it's elite at level. They are complaining because over leveled and over geared players do not let them in to normal runs and the concern is the content actually does require being over geared and over level.

That's why I stated earlier normal should be realistic for what new player will have at those levels and higher difficulties would be there for challenge.

The concern is the devs are actually balancing content that new players cannot even participate in because of the tendency to balance it for geared and experienced players.

I saw another normal shroud requiring 400 minimum hit point characters again last night. The leader has the right to pick and choose who he wants but the message that sends to new players is something I can see as disenheartening and if it were to actually be a necessary requirement very much out of the reach of many if not most of them depending on class at level.
And my point is that what LFM posters require and what the quests actually require as minimum standards are not one and the same, and that just because players are pickier than necessary doesn't mean that the game has been unfairly scaled.

As far as I'm aware, the only significant changes to The Shroud in the last 2 years are:


Blades
Harry actually throws Mass Hold now, instead of just pretending to
His HP got scaled up by something like 25% on normal

The old minimums for The Shroud were, I think, 350 HP unless you had Evasion, in which case you could get by with 300. Again, everything else in the game has shifted upward--the damage we can deal, our to-hit, HP, saves, skills, debuffs, mana efficiency...


Those 400 HP minimum LFMs have very little to do with the realities of the quest's design.

[Vormaerin]

Aashrym,

The problem with that analysis is that the normal shroud doesn't require any of those things for completion. Competent players can complete the Shroud on normal with first life lvl 17s who have made some effort on their gear in other quests. Nothing insanely difficult to have at lvl 17, either.

But a lot of players are very narrow. They only know one way to do something or have strange beliefs about how things work. All the usual stuff we complain about: thinking rogues are only for traps, clerics only for heals, barbs don't need potions, paying attention to the plan is pointless, and so on.

Players posting LFMs like described are either complete idiots who don't know what they are doing OR they are hoping that screening with silly requirements will double as screening for competent players.

It seems like a lot of the arguments here are "we should be able to play badly and still succeed reliably." Sure, if some wizzie Wails a bunch of devils and runs screaming for the cleric, its going to be really ugly. Does that mean that the raid is too hard or just that the wizzie is a 'tard (assuming the leader explained the fight mechanics, anyway)?

People take their 20s because its easier, not because its necessary. And the LFMs are 18-20 because most people just accept the default, which is set to avoid powerleveling problems.

[arcticsparro]

Is DDO easier now than "it used to be" absolutely - is that bad, NO.

I like the difficulties where they are now for most content - elite on my TR's at level seems perfect, just enough challenge - the threat of failure is there and happens, but not so much that I am afraid to try it - and I get that sense of accomplishment from completion. My son who is new to the game still struggles with things on Normal - seems just right. Having an easier game (than it used to be) has certainly made the game much more accessible to more people - I like having people to group with (instead of 50 total on the server like it was for a while) but I like having a challenge available when I want one. I like being able to solo more than I used to as it means I can PLAY more than I used to - very frustrating to having to get a full group just to play at all, which used to be the case and now is much less so. I like the difficulties where they are at with a few exceptions of course. But even that is part of the charm - I loved doing Proof is in the Poison at level - it was hard as hell and felt awesome to finish it - 'course I was then disappointed to get my choice of 4 varieties of +1 leather armor as a reward...

As for Power Creep - it happens - it should! I think completing multiple lives with the xp penalty combined with years of player experience SHOULD allow quests to be easier. I see no problem with twinking to the point things are easy - just shows the value of the gear and the time you invested into producing those things, be they crafted items or DT armor, or greensteel. AND that those obstacle CAN be overcome by targeting the narrow range of "that thing's" weakness. It is WHY we feel powerful using new and snazzy gear, smiters, banishers, disruptors, Greater Banes, Paralyzers, etc - they are their own reward! As long as I don't have to buy a weapon from the DDO store to overcome the "Store bought only DR" and/or I can still manage to get by with a random off the shelf piece of gear I'm all for it.

I think quests on Hard and below should be balanced for a well built 28 pt first life with no Green Steel. Elite - all bets are off - scale up difficulty to where it is extremely difficult for those characters to do it without twinking to the nines - i.e. balanced more to Vets/TR's, multi tr's, and those with 100's of hours into crafting twink gear - that's why we do it! If for example it doesn't really matter if you break DR because it's trivial since you do so much damage anyway - then why bother?

For Raids - Normal should adhere to difficulty of a quest on HARD, Hard should be like an Elite quest, and Elite should be freaking insane - that's why it's elite. Drop rates should be better for Raid loot, harder difficulties should reward that with more loot/better lists rather than a token bit of extra xp. Make 20th lists happen on 10th completions instead, and/or shorten Raid Timers to 24 hours. It's hard enough for new players to get into some of the RAIDS because the people doing them want completions - especially since the drop rates are so low the only real chance of getting what you are doing it for is your 20th list.

Certain turn-ins - like Dragon Scales and adamantine ore need to be toned down - Although I think the change of allowing more than one adamantine turn-in was good toward this - 20 scales (instead of 25 whoopee) is a little crazy for stuff that isn't all that much better than random drops or cove stuff or mabar stuff, etc etc. I would cut that in half. GH is not end-game anymore, the gear is outdated and no longer competes with other stuff at it's level for the time invested - so update it or leave it the same and reduce the grinding.

Crafting is rewarding but after you get to the 40's takes FOREVER to go up in levels - maybe tone down the exponential growth of what you need to get there.

One complaint regarding difficulty is that 20 Raid completions are tough for the casual player to get which makes the gear that much MORE of a grind - Getting a few hours of play time a few times a week sort of relegates you trying to raid (or at least hoping to find one) every time you log on whether you want to or not because otherwise you will NEVER get equipment "X".

AC should matter more - or equate to ACTUAL DR or something meaningful - as is it's nearly pointless. I thought the recent changes to the Shield feats were good steps to help with this.

IMO the loot tables are in need of a pass. Very dissapointing to go from Korthos to the Harbor and take steps backwards in the loot - IMO korthos gear is way OP for the level. Also sucks to do an at level elite run of the PIT and get a crappy selection of **** for rewards - chance at muck doom is to low also (40+ completions looking for 1 and still haven't got one- though I have gotten all the OTHER named stuff from there)

[DANTEIL]

First of all, I'm very glad to see these threads and I hope that the relevant Devs take the time to drop in and reply to some of the comments rather than just treat this as a one-way bulletin board for feedback.

Concerning difficulty: I am currently a very casual and occasional player -- although I own all the packs, I have never TRed a character and mostly solo after some bad experiences in groups. My impression is that the difficulty of the game has definitely been increasing in recent updates, to the point where I basically feel blocked out of most endgame content, due to having only ordinary quest gear and limited playtime. As many people have pointed out, the actual vs. stated difficulty of individual quests can vary widely. Most frustrating for me, however, is when a quest is fairly 'routine' on Normal through 90% of the quest but then you have a boss fight which is suddenly WAAY harder and ends up in a wipe. If the quest is hard to get to or really long, then this is just a demoralizing failure. Finally, it seems as if many of the newer quests have been tuned toward the assumption that players will automatically have super gear. The supervocal veterans with multiple TRs here on the forums are not the only player-type out there. While this might be fine for Elite, Normal difficulty should definitely not be this way.

[Vormaerin]

Danteil,

You can't complete the quests on casual? That is the difficulty put in place for poorly equipped soloing players. Normal should be the for "normal" player: someone with decent but not great gear, small or poorly balanced group, etc.

[DANTEIL]

Danteil,

You can't complete the quests on casual? That is the difficulty put in place for poorly equipped soloing players. Normal should be the for "normal" player: someone with decent but not great gear, small or poorly balanced group, etc.

Well, I don't believe I mentioned Casual difficulty, but it is true that I often try a quest on Casual first if I am not sure about it, and usually, yes I can complete it. However a) there are times that I still can't complete due to a suddenly much more difficult final boss (Enter the Kobold comes to mind) and b) the rewards for Casual in both XP and favor are really limited (as they should be) and so Normal or Hard would often be preferred.

Also, I don't believe I mentioned "poor" gear -- or at least I didn't mean it that way. I meant only 'ordinary' gear (as you put it 'decent but not great') that is not crafted, not greensteel -- perhaps one or two Named items from quest drops, enough knowledge to understand 100% fort, but nothing more special than that.

[Aashrym]

And my point is that what LFM posters require and what the quests actually require as minimum standards are not one and the same, and that just because players are pickier than necessary doesn't mean that the game has been unfairly scaled.

As far as I'm aware, the only significant changes to The Shroud in the last 2 years are:


Blades
Harry actually throws Mass Hold now, instead of just pretending to
His HP got scaled up by something like 25% on normal

The old minimums for The Shroud were, I think, 350 HP unless you had Evasion, in which case you could get by with 300. Again, everything else in the game has shifted upward--the damage we can deal, our to-hit, HP, saves, skills, debuffs, mana efficiency...


Those 400 HP minimum LFMs have very little to do with the realities of the quest's design.

My experience is most players who are posting shroud lfm's seem to be in the pickier category these days. ;)

It's not just shroud tho. A lot of the newer content is harder than the older content in the same level ranges. Other raids have had increases in boss hit points. I actually disagree on needing 350 hit points on a bard, sorc, or artificers for shroud (for example) or that it is easily achievable on a 28 point first life character who still needs to get equipment depending on class.

When you say the damage we can do has gone up in which way are you referring? Auto crit is gone, fortification has increased on several bosses, CC was nerfed in general and save bonuses went up in epics, THF glancing blows while moving was nerfed, TWF was nerfed.

Sure, bards got +1 to hit and +1 to damage when the level cap hit 20 in some cases and casters got access to 9th level spells since then, savants appeared with nice spell damage, AoV got a bonus, but most of the damage that we see is based on gear for most characters. It's not like most classes had anything added to the classes for higher damage output. Anything given for levels higher than the quest level should not be relevant to the difficulty of that quest.

New players don't have gear yet. If a new player starts his own guild with his own friends they don't have guild augments slots or ship buffs of their own to rely on. They do not have plat to buy gear or consumables. They don't have crafting levels or built up supplies to build crafting levels and craft the better items.

These are the players we should see Turbine balancing normal content for and being in that situation means we should not be considering them under geared when the game does not currently provide the opportunities they need until after they need it so to speak.

I think someone who decides to run an elite quest who is not prepared for it deserves to fail. I do not expect other players to carry a player through elite either. I do expect to have settings available for these players to play so that they have the opportunity to develop their skills and add to their equipment and I expect Turbine to provide that environment for them.

[Glenalth]

5) There are those of us that do want to run a raid 100 times a life to get 1 item to run the next raid 100 times, etc. There are plenty that will, and good for them, I personally just don't care. However, do not just assume that everyone will, and scale everything towards those that do. I won't even run a raid 20 times. The game isn't called Dungeons of Grinding.

This is true with any game where there are a wide variety of players.

I like the idea of having tiered raid loot with the "basic" item as a somewhat easy pull for casuals such as in Chronoscope, with 1 upgrade tier such as the unlock for Gianthold and Abbot for people that can handle higher difficulties, followed by a full epic upgrade for the top-tier folks.

Lord of Blades/Master Artificer loot is pretty close, but the entry level may be a bit steep for the lower end players. At least in it's own defense, it is an end game raid.

[sephiroth1084]

My experience is most players who are posting shroud lfm's seem to be in the pickier category these days. ;) That has a lot to do with things outside of the quest design and overall difficulty of the game.


It's not just shroud tho. A lot of the newer content is harder than the older content in the same level ranges.That's true (Lordsmark vs. Gianthold comes to mind), but the ways in which it has gotten more difficult is largely non-linear (quests are more complex, but monsters aren't hitting much harder, that I can tell). And, as I'll outline below, a bump in difficulty was required due to benefits we've received.


Other raids have had increases in boss hit points.
Boss HP increasing is something I'm against, mostly, but again, we've gotten a ton more DPS than we had when those raids came out, so at least part of that shift is to keep the raid close to the level of challenge that it was at before. For example, when VoD came out I would never have considered the all-in DPS approach to the second half of the raid, where everyone ignores the devils, orthons and bats and just beats Sulu down as fast as possible, which is exactly what I've done several times with great groups after the level cap went up. Now that his HP has gotten buffed, that strategy is once again a rather poor idea.

Look at it this way; since the raids came out (Shroud and VoD are what I'm looking at here, and including only set-bonus items from ToD and level 17-20 class benefits):


Barbarians have gotten +6d6 Vicious damage per swing, between +6 and +12 Str
Bards have gotten the ability to give us another +2 (?) damage per swing, and 5% double-strike
Clerics have gotten a healing aura that is incredibly cheap to keep up, a healing burst that removes a lot of negative status effects and is fairly cheap as supplemental healing, more SP and Mass Heal
Fighters have gotten +8 Str, +10% double-strike, +1 to their threat range and between +4 and +6 damage per swing, or +6 Str, +6 Con, +20% HP, +4 to 6 AC, DR 6 and 10% double-strike
Paladins have gotten +6 Str, +6 Con, +20% HP, +4 to 6 AC, or +6d6(?) damage per swing, 10% double-strike, up to +8 damage per swing, and another +3d6 damage per swing
Rangers have gotten...not a whole lot I think (was Tempest I out when Shroud and/or VoD came out?)
Rogues have gotten +8d6 SA and +100 damage on vorpals
Sorcerers have gotten whatever the boosts are from their PrE and capstone (not all that familiar with these), slightly lowered spell point costs, more SP, Niac's Biting Cold and Eladar's Electric Surge, among other things
Wizards have gotten slightly lowered spell point costs, more SP, Niac's Biting Cold and Eladar's Electric Surge, among other things, like free/super-cheap nukes that do mediocre damage

You don't see the need for bosses to gain some HP in order to remain at all relevant and threatening in light of all of that?


I actually disagree on needing 350 hit points on a bard, sorc, or artificers for shroud (for example) or that it is easily achievable on a 28 point first life character who still needs to get equipment depending on class. I actually meant those as the melee requirements. The idea used to be that if you were going to be in melee, you needed 350, 300 with Evasion. If you weren't meleeing (archer, caster, healer), you needed 250. Honestly, though, 250 has always been too low in Shroud for characters without Fire Shield: Cold, as a failed Reflex save can kill you if you have other damage on you already, and clerics are not known for their Reflex saves.


When you say the damage we can do has gone up in which way are you referring? Auto crit is gone, fortification has increased on several bosses, CC was nerfed in general and save bonuses went up in epics, THF glancing blows while moving was nerfed, TWF was nerfed. See my above explanation. We gained a ton of DPS on bosses, even in light of the Fortification boosts, and we have been given tools to drop Fort below even where it was before, if we use them.

DPS on non-bosses has gone down versus what it was when Mass Hold meant auto-crits, but that isn't especially relevant here, and since Epic monster HP dropped by a lot, is irrelevant in that context as well, leaving Elite Inspired Quarter, Amrath and Vale as the hold-outs there. They could stand to have a slight reduction in HP on things on elite.



New players don't have gear yet. If a new player starts his own guild with his own friends they don't have guild augments slots or ship buffs of their own to rely on. They do not have plat to buy gear or consumables. They don't have crafting levels or built up supplies to build crafting levels and craft the better items. I would imagine that, if you were crunching most of what you loot while leveling, you would get up to a high enough crafting level by the time you hit The Shroud to at least make yourself some of the necessary gear for the raid (DR breaker, Heavy Fort, +6 Stat items, GFL), or sell off your essences to buy the stuff you can't craft on your own.

That said, a lot of the gear that drops in level 12-17 content is significantly stronger than what could be achieved in that range before (barring greensteel), which means that players could be heading into Shroud with better gear than was possible when the cap was 16 as well.


These are the players we should see Turbine balancing normal content for and being in that situation means we should not be considering them under geared when the game does not currently provide the opportunities they need until after they need it so to speak.
Who is being considered undeargeared for what, and by whom? The LFM posters? That has only very little to do with the difficulty of the raid. Look at The Titan! It's all but impossible to get a group together for that at level these days, and it is easier than it was in almost every way when the cap was 16.


I believe that normal should be scaled to be beatable by at-level characters with average gear for that level with a reasonable strategy and communication/awareness. I don't feel that The Shroud has suddenly been propelled beyond that mark.

[Vormaerin]

Also, I don't believe I mentioned "poor" gear -- or at least I didn't mean it that way. I meant only 'ordinary' gear (as you put it 'decent but not great') that is not crafted, not greensteel -- perhaps one or two Named items from quest drops, enough knowledge to understand 100% fort, but nothing more special than that.

If you have that gear, then with dungeon scaling, most quests should be doable on normal and some on hard. A few are particularly challenging to do solo, but I'm not sure that is really a basis for saying the game is too hard.

I hardly do any raiding because my guild is rather small and casual, but I don't consider that a reason to make the Shroud easier to do with three for four people like most of our parties tend to be.

A quest that can't be done by 2-3 people on normal is, imho, too hard because that's the normal size of groups that don't linger around begging for players. There are lots of couples or small groups of friends playing in that group size. A quest that is very hard to solo is not as compelling an argument. In my opinion.

I do a lot of soloing, but there are quests I don't bother with without friends. I don't think that's a game balance problem, really.

[jkm]

Seph,

I'm not sure what you are arguing here. The devs ARE in charge of the meta-game of DDO. If they weren't there wouldn't ever be a need for a nerf. Heck the one thing that I NEVER see mentioned to increase game difficulty is to bring back permanent damage to bound weapons. Talk about something that would even up the differences between the haves and have nots on normal quests, that would do it.

[Kathul]

I feel that DDO difficulty is fine as it is.

I remember when i first started, it was a bit difficult, and as i saw better players with better gear i was inspired to become one of them. ( And i still am being inspired, there are some awesome players out there with awesome gear, and i want that.)

The playerbase, I feel, seems to have enjoyed easy button style.When changes were made alot of them cried, and still are.

I have run multiple shrouds since the change with 3 fails and 16 no fails, mostly one rounders with the blades.

So all in all low levels can be a challenge, even with ship buffs. Mid level is still fun and challenging, and High level /end game/Epic is also fun and challenging.

I will elaborate more on other Dev concerns as they come up.

So far i have a couple of issues with certain things(mostly gear stuff) but overall the game seems fine, some people may be forgetting the outside resources that are available that can help them along the way if it gets tough.

Keep the threads coming and I appreciate the concern and feedback.

[ArcaneMelee]

...
Rangers have gotten...not a whole lot I think (was Tempest I out when Shroud and/or VoD came out?)
...

Tempest1 came out with the Shroud, but there wasn't any Tempest2 or Tempest3. That's OK, because the old Tempest1 was worth more than the current Tempest1 + Tempest2 + Tempest3 put together.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Module_6

Ah, the good ole days...

[FranOhmsford]

I'm currently in Chamber of Insanity {A lvl 5 quest} on Elite {Lvl 7} on my tempest ranger {Lvl 11}.

I grabbed rogue hireling Istrin Teken'ar {Lvl 11} to do the traps.

I really didn't expect him to blow up a trap box even though I knew these traps had a high DC for the level BUT THIS IS WHAT HE DID!

I previously noted that Rest for the Restless {in House P} has it's search DCs set too high...Now I'm gonna to add that some of the trap DCs in this game are ridiculous too.

Durk's Got a Secret
Chamber of Insanity
Haywire Foundry

3 places where if you can possibly crit fail it's guaranteed I will crit fail - strangely enough the first roll is usually a standard fail and the second will crit fail.

I'm sure there are plenty of others but these are the three that readily come to mind.

A lvl 11 Drow Rogue SHOULD NOT be crit failing in a lvl 5 quest {7 Elite} never mind whether he's JUST a hireling...BTW he also does not have the int for the rune - It may be that this hireling needs to be looked at but I'm leaning towards the DC of the trap being too high for the lvl of the quest.

[verad]

Casters both player and monster forms are owning melee.
(monsters seem not to suffer from spell cool down or mana pool.)
AC –seems broken. Either you get enough so your untouchable or don’t bother at all.
I suggest ac giving some form of damage resistance. The more you have the less you take players that wish to get 90+ ac will have very good damage resistance and players that neglect their ac may suffer from it. It should scale to level of course having 40 ac at level 5 should be ungodly but at level 20 be par.
Get rid of ship buffs. It’s made some of the content easy and boring having 30 resists that can’t be dispelled has made some content boring. I think guild level should give some other form or benefit.
Also sitting around waiting for one guy to buff when we should be doing the quest just plain sucks.
Level 10 1% increase in xp earned per 10 levels would be fair enough. Maybe scrolls and pots and such that are level based would be rewards. I think level of guild should effect what they can buy as far as potions and scrolls like have scrolls and potions that are higher level like a level 10 haste pot or a level 20 stoneskin scroll. Etc.
Air elementals *** give them knockback not knockdown as a melee I cannot even have a chance to complete some quests /challenges now as a melee . either that or make the saves vs reflex not vs str roll at best an average guy has 30 str which is a +10 roll which it most cases is perma knocked down.

[verad]

I remember when cap was level 10 and i got +5 mithril platemail from a chest and i was so happy and then a few seconds later i was kinda depressed. I thought wow the max level is 10 and I just got the best armor in the game??? what the hell is gonna happen later when they add more levels. Some time later after Shroud came
up i did quit the game because what i saw was the trend was just making the game easier and easier. Now with epic content/crafting and LOB gear whats the point of even looting chests anymore?

[slimkj]

Introduce casual difficulty on raids.

A raid run on casual does not drop any raid loot, does not count as a completion, and does not have a lock-out timer.

The point of running a raid on casual is to have an environment in which you can learn the raid, and as a way for players to experience the story of the raid without having to split their focus so heavily with trying to stay alive and contribute.

For example, The Shroud on casual would drop no small, medium or large ingredients, no power cells, no shards or power and no horns, would not count toward completions for obtaining a Cleanser on a 20th list, and could be run as many times in a day as you choose. Damage and HP on the monsters therein would be much less. The blades would function as they do currently, but would do a pittance of the damage in other difficulties.
This is a very good idea. Nice work.

[Aashrym]

Look at it this way; since the raids came out (Shroud and VoD are what I'm looking at here, and including only set-bonus items from ToD and level 17-20 class benefits):


Barbarians have gotten +6d6 Vicious damage per swing, between +6 and +12 Str
Bards have gotten the ability to give us another +2 (?) damage per swing, and 5% double-strike
Clerics have gotten a healing aura that is incredibly cheap to keep up, a healing burst that removes a lot of negative status effects and is fairly cheap as supplemental healing, more SP and Mass Heal
Fighters have gotten +8 Str, +10% double-strike, +1 to their threat range and between +4 and +6 damage per swing, or +6 Str, +6 Con, +20% HP, +4 to 6 AC, DR 6 and 10% double-strike
Paladins have gotten +6 Str, +6 Con, +20% HP, +4 to 6 AC, or +6d6(?) damage per swing, 10% double-strike, up to +8 damage per swing, and another +3d6 damage per swing
Rangers have gotten...not a whole lot I think (was Tempest I out when Shroud and/or VoD came out?)
Rogues have gotten +8d6 SA and +100 damage on vorpals
Sorcerers have gotten whatever the boosts are from their PrE and capstone (not all that familiar with these), slightly lowered spell point costs, more SP, Niac's Biting Cold and Eladar's Electric Surge, among other things
Wizards have gotten slightly lowered spell point costs, more SP, Niac's Biting Cold and Eladar's Electric Surge, among other things, like free/super-cheap nukes that do mediocre damage

You don't see the need for bosses to gain some HP in order to remain at all relevant and threatening in light of all of that?

Some of those are valid but I question the value of some of them given the loss of autocrit, more constructs and more undead (it's not all about raids or higher end content), fortification and the time loss that comes with bypassing it on bosses.

Some of those spells are not an increase in damage, just an increase is sustaining damage. Wizard SLA's, for example, are not high damage. Radiant aura and bursts are an increase in healing and can provide more SP for offense but not really an increase in damage. I think sorcs did score pretty well with the higher caster level and curse and capstone but they paid for it as well with changes to casting speed and cooldown timers.

The bonus to bard damage has been rather negated by the lower number of melees in the groups I am in. A typical 6 man group I jump in to has 3-4 casters these days, me being one of them.

If you want to compile a more complete list I would add horcs and helves in there as increased damage options. I would agree that there are more damage options available but I think it is questionable that there has been an overall increase with other changes, and autocrit was a big one.


I actually meant those as the melee requirements. The idea used to be that if you were going to be in melee, you needed 350, 300 with Evasion. If you weren't meleeing (archer, caster, healer), you needed 250. Honestly, though, 250 has always been too low in Shroud for characters without Fire Shield: Cold, as a failed Reflex save can kill you if you have other damage on you already, and clerics are not known for their Reflex saves.
See my above explanation. We gained a ton of DPS on bosses, even in light of the Fortification boosts, and we have been given tools to drop Fort below even where it was before, if we use them.

Those make more sense as melee requirements. Unfortunately some of them were looking for much higher melee requirements. I am usually looking for 300+ on shroud normal and give casters or ranged a bit of leeway.

The problem with fortification is getting the fortification down is not instantaneous and that creates lost (delayed might be a better word) damage during the process. Higher hit points cause longer fights and melee to lose finite boosts resulting in lower damage. Sneak attack loss can still be pretty significant but tbh I haven't played on a rogue in some time.


DPS on non-bosses has gone down versus what it was when Mass Hold meant auto-crits, but that isn't especially relevant here, and since Epic monster HP dropped by a lot, is irrelevant in that context as well, leaving Elite Inspired Quarter, Amrath and Vale as the hold-outs there. They could stand to have a slight reduction in HP on things on elite.

Non-bosses cover most of the quests most of the time. As far as elite I think that is where we should see high difficulty. I'm advocating normal as the setting that should be friendly to new players on first lives, no guilds, no plat, etc. Through the entire game. I would start using hold person for autocrit pretty early in the game. It was an option through most of the game.


I would imagine that, if you were crunching most of what you loot while leveling, you would get up to a high enough crafting level by the time you hit The Shroud to at least make yourself some of the necessary gear for the raid (DR breaker, Heavy Fort, +6 Stat items, GFL), or sell off your essences to buy the stuff you can't craft on your own.

That said, a lot of the gear that drops in level 12-17 content is significantly stronger than what could be achieved in that range before (barring greensteel), which means that players could be heading into Shroud with better gear than was possible when the cap was 16 as well.

I tried going to a new server with nothing just to test that out recently. Selling essences and guild slot items was definitely the way to go but actually purchasing equipment on the AH was not just from vendor trash income. Unfortunately the inflation that hit the AH did not carry over to the vendors and they do not pay well in comparison.

I ended up with a DR breaker as a quest reward for sleeping dust. I had not purchased one up to that point or had one drop and did not work on crafting levels. I considered it fluke luck. :D

Iron ore trade in for heavy fort is pretty straight forward. I had 2 heavy fort robes drop in end rewards before I got to shroud too.

Improved false life was easy to get, greater false life cost me 120k plat at level 18. That is also when I was able to acquire a +6 CON item from Amrath (Shintao necklace) and settled for +4 CON ring before that. The CON ring was a quick and easy purchase from a vendor.

The problem I would have with crunching loot while leveling is it means I have less plat from vendor trash and needed it for the first while until I did find something valuable and that it is a time sink.


Who is being considered undeargeared for what, and by whom? The LFM posters? That has only very little to do with the difficulty of the raid. Look at The Titan! It's all but impossible to get a group together for that at level these days, and it is easier than it was in almost every way when the cap was 16.

Under geared was the term you used and I thought could be rather subjective. Under geared or not should be a benchmark set by the dev team and based on what new characters would have instead of what geared characters might state is needed, as a general statement and not directed at anyone in particular.


I believe that normal should be scaled to be beatable by at-level characters with average gear for that level with a reasonable strategy and communication/awareness. I don't feel that The Shroud has suddenly been propelled beyond that mark.

I agree. I agree 100%. I just want everyone on the same page as what average gear is at level and want it based on new players and not players acquiring it for 2+ years. Except maybe the shroud blades should offer a save. ;)

Shroud blades are not because I think they are too difficult. I do not agree the mechanic is fair to players in general. It is too similar to blanket immunities and those also annoy me.


SIDE NOTE: Work is keeping me busy. If anything appears disjointed in the comments it's likely caused by a lot of pausing in the writing of the material. ;)

[Antheal]

Get rid of ship buffs. It’s made some of the content easy and boring having 30 resists that can’t be dispelled has made some content boring.

I have a better idea. Just ban Verad from getting ship buffs and leave the rest of us alone.

[ArcaneMelee]

I have a better idea. Just ban Verad from getting ship buffs and leave the rest of us alone.

I'm always amused by people who cry "easy button" because they've taken advantage of a mechanic to make the game easier. Isn't that the whole point of using the mechanic?

[sephiroth1084]

Some of those are valid but I question the value of some of them given the loss of autocrit, more constructs and more undead (it's not all about raids or higher end content), fortification and the time loss that comes with bypassing it on bosses.
Wait. What? Are you claiming that we've gotten more undead than we had previously? More constructs because of the Cannith quests? The WF aren't running 100% Fort. Man, are you going to complain about everything that poses any difficulty? Oh! And we actually have MORE DPS vs. undead and constructs now than we did before thanks to the Challenge items that grant Fortification penalties to constructs and undead, the ability to get +50% damage on undead with Halt Undead, +50% on WF that can now be earthgrabbed, when they could not otherwise be made helpless before.


Some of those spells are not an increase in damage, just an increase is sustaining damage. Wizard SLA's, for example, are not high damage. Radiant aura and bursts are an increase in healing and can provide more SP for offense but not really an increase in damage. I think sorcs did score pretty well with the higher caster level and curse and capstone but they paid for it as well with changes to casting speed and cooldown timers.

The bonus to bard damage has been rather negated by the lower number of melees in the groups I am in. A typical 6 man group I jump in to has 3-4 casters these days, me being one of them.

If you want to compile a more complete list I would add horcs and helves in there as increased damage options. I would agree that there are more damage options available but I think it is questionable that there has been an overall increase with other changes, and autocrit was a big one. That's a lot of nitpicking right there.



The problem with fortification is getting the fortification down is not instantaneous and that creates lost (delayed might be a better word) damage during the process. Higher hit points cause longer fights and melee to lose finite boosts resulting in lower damage. Sneak attack loss can still be pretty significant but tbh I haven't played on a rogue in some time.The fact is, only raid bosses got Fort bumps, and most had Fort already, and we can drop it below where it started in most cases. The few seconds it takes to get those abilities up and running dramatically reduces the time it takes to take down these bosses. Just because players haven't adapted doesn't mean that we don't have the tools to beat stuff faster than we did before in many cases.

As for Sneak Attack, rogues were never very welcome in The Shroud, because they do pitiful damage against portals and are losing half their SA against Harry...except now, we have many ways to drop that so that rogues are getting SA more often.



Non-bosses cover most of the quests most of the time. As far as elite I think that is where we should see high difficulty. I'm advocating normal as the setting that should be friendly to new players on first lives, no guilds, no plat, etc. Through the entire game. I would start using hold person for autocrit pretty early in the game. It was an option through most of the game. Uh...I run with very few people who bother using Hold Person or Hold Monster, since stuff dies so fast before you get Mass Hold that it's usually not worth the SP. When you get Mass Hold Person, most of what you're fighting is not a humanoid, so the spell isn't all that meaningful.

So what you're complaining about is that Mass Hold Monster isn't as effective as it was before? You can just WAIL stuff! Stuff you couldn't just kill outright before. That's MUCH faster than Mass Hold ever was.

[AsburyParker]

Also, any mechanic that prohibits solo play is a huge fail. If the monsters are too tough to solo at level that's fine. Not having enough feet to step on pressure plates is not. Even for people who strongly prefer to group, sometimes they just can't and the more you impose arbitrary restrictions the more likely they are to just switch games, and you can only hope they remember to switch back. Nobody switches games because they had the option to solo a quest and didn't want to, but they sure do switch because they wanted to but you wouldn't allow them to. As long as they are playing there is the chance to join a group.

I agree with this as well.

These types of mechanics make sense when a group is involved, but only provides an obstacle for anyone who, for whatever reason, wants to solo the quest. If mobs in a quest can adjust to how many players are involved, why can't mechanics do the same? Maybe there is more involved from the coding standpoint, but if it would serve to keep a sufficent number of players interested in the game, it may be worth the cost.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think the biggest difficulty problems I've encountered are these:

1.) casters in low-level quests get caster levels way, way too quickly. I don't care if it's on elite, if you're doing a level 2 quest it should not have casters with FOURTH LEVEL SPELLS in it.
2.) Beholders are way, way, WAY more difficult than they ought to be. Now, personally I'd prefer it if antimagic were implemented the way it's supposed to work in 3.5, where it just suppresses everything, not dispelling it, *including* the beholder's own eye-beams, and spells from people outside the antimagic, etc. For the most part, however, this can be dealt with. The only real exception is that Chol'thuzz in Litany has about FIVE TIMES too many hit points. And he's incorporeal. And he's randomly immune to damage types that NO BEHOLDER EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME HAS EVER BEEN IMMUNE TO. Chol in Ghosts is okay because you get breathing room. In Litany, ZOMG no. FIX IT FIX IT FIX IT.
3.) Stormreaver is now too hard to do on elite at-level. If you have to wait 2 hours to get a raid together and be more selective than with an elite ToD, it's TOO HARD. Chronoscope elite at-level is pushing it, too, although I will say that I haven't tried this since the latest update/patch so I don't know if/how it's been tweaked.
4.) Dungeon scaling in low-level quests is too much. If a quest gets harder (in relative terms, not absolute terms) when you add more people, this is a massive disincentive to group and can leave newbies high and dry because experienced players want nothing to do with them. I'm not opposed to dungeon scaling in general, it's just that in the lower-level quests the impact is felt much more and thus it's a bigger problem.
5.) Trap DC's increase too quickly at low levels and too slowly at high levels. Newbies and low-level characters are necessarily not going to have the best gear, which means they aren't sitting at maximum potential spot/search/disable for their level. I've done some quests at level where even with every buff we could pull off, the rogue STILL couldn't find the trap. Highbies not only will have the +15 items, they'll have access to buffs like Greater Heroism. By all means stagger the traps in a given quest, but don't put one in the middle of a hall that everyone has to pass through and make the DC stupidly high. Heck, that's not just trap DC's, that's most skill DC's at low levels. I can do Bluff and Diplomacy optionals at level 15 with just stat and an item on my sorc, but NOBODY can do the ones in Partycrashers even with max ranks and an item. That's just SILLY.

[Aashrym]

Wait. What? Are you claiming that we've gotten more undead than we had previously? More constructs because of the Cannith quests? The WF aren't running 100% Fort. Man, are you going to complain about everything that poses any difficulty? Oh! And we actually have MORE DPS vs. undead and constructs now than we did before thanks to the Challenge items that grant Fortification penalties to constructs and undead, the ability to get +50% damage on undead with Halt Undead, +50% on WF that can now be earthgrabbed, when they could not otherwise be made helpless before.

Nope, I am not complaining. I am discussing. I might need more smiley's. ;)

We have more undead. Look at sentinels as an example of something that seems to be more difficult at level than other quest of equal level and increase the number of undead in the last 2 years. New players do not start out in level 16+ content.

Now that earthgrab affects WF how many player characters can effectively earthgrab WF for that +50% let alone new players?

Halt undead is not exactly carried around by most characters either. The scrolls are sometimes for mindless undead but the spell is normally carried by wizards when they know they will need it.


That's a lot of nitpicking right there.

Accusing me of nitpicking doesn't dispute what I said. Just sayin' ;)


The fact is, only raid bosses got Fort bumps, and most had Fort already, and we can drop it below where it started in most cases. The few seconds it takes to get those abilities up and running dramatically reduces the time it takes to take down these bosses. Just because players haven't adapted doesn't mean that we don't have the tools to beat stuff faster than we did before in many cases.

As for Sneak Attack, rogues were never very welcome in The Shroud, because they do pitiful damage against portals and are losing half their SA against Harry...except now, we have many ways to drop that so that rogues are getting SA more often.

We are still talking more than just shroud. You already agreed that outside of bosses damage has gone down with the loss of autocrit and that is true at many levels.

A break down of what classes and equipment you are using to reduce fortification and keep it reduced might be an idea though. My first thought is not all new players have access to FvS by the time they hit shroud and that is a typical method to lower fortification. That might be a smaller issue when it comes to raids, I admit, because not all the players would be new.

My second thought is outside of shroud when new players run into undead with their rogues and bards they are going to find content more difficult the more they run into those. Not necessarily at level 18 but level 8 or 9 or 5 might be a different story. Increasing numbers of mobs with immunities to specific class ability does impact difficulty, and it isn't always about damage.


Uh...I run with very few people who bother using Hold Person or Hold Monster, since stuff dies so fast before you get Mass Hold that it's usually not worth the SP. When you get Mass Hold Person, most of what you're fighting is not a humanoid, so the spell isn't all that meaningful.

So what you're complaining about is that Mass Hold Monster isn't as effective as it was before? You can just WAIL stuff! Stuff you couldn't just kill outright before. That's MUCH faster than Mass Hold ever was.

I can wail stuff, yes. Can you do this at level 12? ;)

I think mass hold monster is more effective that it was before for wizards and sorcerers. They can cast it. They get damage bonuses from helpless mobs that they did not have before too. Other classes cannot cast it and lost damage based on the changes to helpless.

Let me know how many bards you run with who cast either mass hold or wail, and any sorcs or wizard who can demolish party crashers at level on normal with those spells. :D

I might be coming across as a bit snarky (which is not actually the case, btw ;) ) but being a new player means being a new player from level 1 onwards. Talking about spells that can be cast by 2 classes out of 12 when they hit level 17 or 18 doesn't mean much for the other 10 classes or first 16 levels. Players use hold person because it becomes available at level 3 or 4 and available to 5 classes instead of 2, not because it is an answer to high level content.

None of those spells have anything to do with my comments that the game needs to have normal content geared towards new players and what they have or can do. What makes those spells more effective for some players,though, is having gear and past lives for better DC's and spell penetration. That is something a new player might not have when he hits level 17 or 18 regardless. That is a discrepancy and normal content should not be designed to the players who do have those extra benefits.

You seem to be fixating on only one part of the game. The impact might be debatable on what the fortification does and whether it can be worked around and that is easy enough to acknowledge but you have yet to dispute the comment that most of the damage increases that came were from equipment and not classes. Equipment does not magically appear for any new player.

This isn't even restricted to existing content or what has been done in the past. We are talking about a development cycle the runs several updates long before we would see them in preview or production. I want to be clear with the dev team that I want the content balanced for new players on normal so they can play, enjoy themselves, stick around, develop their skills, grind their gear, learn the game, and be able to run content on harder settings.

A new quest chain for levels 4-6 could be the beginning of one of the new story arcs down the road, for example, and we don't need new players stepping off the boat from Korthos or jumping in on their veteran character they've never played or bought from the store and then get scared off as they fall flat on their faces because the development team decided that it should be challenging on normal for 3rd life TR's with 4.3 million plat for consumables and a level 75 guild. That doesn't build up the player base.

I want you to understand I am talking about what I consider the bigger picture in my comments and that they may or may not be in regards to low, medium, or high levels because we will find new players and eventually new content at various for everyone including those new players.

[Vormaerin]

I think you are just plain wrong about the undead issue. The game has a lower % of undead now that it did when it came out.

Catacombs, Delera's and every other House J quest, a number of House P quests.

Then we got Necropolis and the Desert before it started getting better.

Very few of the "new" quests have undead in them. You mention Sentinels, but there's Red Fens, Phiarlan Carnival, Harbinger/Reign of Madness, Lord's March, Amrath, Mindsunder, the stand alone Twelve Quests, and so on that have come out to seriously dilute the undead quotient of the game.

It used to not be possible to level without a constant diet of Undead. Now there is enough content that you can bypass much of it if you really want to.

[Aashrym]

I think you are just plain wrong about the undead issue. The game has a lower % of undead now that it did when it came out.

Catacombs, Delera's and every other House J quest, a number of House P quests.

Then we got Necropolis and the Desert before it started getting better.

Very few of the "new" quests have undead in them. You mention Sentinels, but there's Red Fens, Phiarlan Carnival, Harbinger/Reign of Madness, Lord's March, Amrath, Mindsunder, the stand alone Twelve Quests, and so on that have come out to seriously dilute the undead quotient of the game.

It used to not be possible to level without a constant diet of Undead. Now there is enough content that you can bypass much of it if you really want to.

Fens has undead, just not many. ;)

You could be right about he lower percentage. That doesn't change what adding too many more could mean. Undead generally tend to fall into frustrating for some players or classes. That would be my concern.

I'm also pretty sure that is why we had less undead quests coming out for a while.

[Elaril]

Harder is good...in new content. The challenge is in the discovery.

Making old content harder is fail in my opinion. Balancing lower level quests and raids around twinked out tr's/well geared capped characters is even more fail. People grind out gear and tr's to dominate content compared to what their character used to be able to do. It's a natural progression element evident in all rpg's. Upping difficulty of older content removes this element. Adding new content does not.

[sephiroth1084]

Nope, I am not complaining. I am discussing. I might need more smiley's. ;)

We have more undead. Look at sentinels as an example of something that seems to be more difficult at level than other quest of equal level and increase the number of undead in the last 2 years. New players do not start out in level 16+ content. Uh...undead appear in about 1.5 of the 5 Sentinels quests, and the .5 doesn't even need to be run to flag for Tides. Black Loch is definitely not the hardest of the quests in the series, and the hardest enemies in the quest are the casters and the hobgoblins (bugbears? I can never tell the difference). I just ran these, and the undead were definitely not the problem, and certainly not for being undead.



Now that earthgrab affects WF how many player characters can effectively earthgrab WF for that +50% let alone new players? Actually, we're getting more and more items with Earthgrab on them. The challenges and alchemical items have Earthgrab access, and we're getting more access to Shroud ingredients which makes crafting an Earthgrab greensteel more reasonable as well. Earth Savant sorcerers also gain the ability to use this attack.

Oh, and we've gotten Stone Prison which (I think) works on some of these enemies (at least on elementals) and is also showing up on items in addition to being a monk attack.


Halt undead is not exactly carried around by most characters either. The scrolls are sometimes for mindless undead but the spell is normally carried by wizards when they know they will need it.
My point wasn't that every party will have this, but that it's a new option that increases DPS in these situations. Just because you don't use it (such as by not taking a wizard along), doesn't mean it isn't there for consideration.



Accusing me of nitpicking doesn't dispute what I said. Just sayin' ;)

Actually, it does. My point was that we have received access to a lot more DPS. Your response was to point out that Radiant Aura/Burst aren't DPS (ignoring that the mana saved will allow clerics to use more on damage...with their new, excellent spell, Divine Punishment), and that the boost to Inspire Courage and from Inspire Recklessness is mitigated by arcanes becoming more popular, which is silly--the boost is there and has its effect; if your groups are taking more arcanes, it is likely not resulting in a loss of DPS. Wizard's DPS does go up over long fights/quests with their cheap, weak SLAs, because instead of going nova in 2 min and then sitting around waiting for the fight to end while at 0 SP, they're applying damage for longer.

We got MUCH more DPS. There's really no way around accepting that.


We are still talking more than just shroud. You already agreed that outside of bosses damage has gone down with the loss of autocrit and that is true at many levels. Nooo. We didn't. Damage went down due to the helplessness change in parties that are melee-heavy with low caster-based DPS in high level content. In quests with a lot of caster damage, or at low level, DPS got ramped up in a big way, and even in that narrow niche where it dropped a bit, it did so only a small amount, and in most of that content, the drop was less than the drop in enemy HP, which means that relative damage went up.


A break down of what classes and equipment you are using to reduce fortification and keep it reduced might be an idea though. My first thought is not all new players have access to FvS by the time they hit shroud and that is a typical method to lower fortification. That might be a smaller issue when it comes to raids, I admit, because not all the players would be new. FvS can drop Fort. Both Light and Dark monks can. Destruction does. Improved Sunder does. Rogues can personally and against constructs for the group. Artificers can on constructs. A couple new Challenge items can for constructs and undead. I'm probably leaving out a couple.


My second thought is outside of shroud when new players run into undead with their rogues and bards they are going to find content more difficult the more they run into those. Not necessarily at level 18 but level 8 or 9 or 5 might be a different story. Increasing numbers of mobs with immunities to specific class ability does impact difficulty, and it isn't always about damage.
We haven't gotten more undead and constructs at the low levels. They were already packed with undead, and were largely not very fun for rogues as of 5 years ago. Nothing has changed, except that we have received better tools for dealing with this stuff.



I can wail stuff, yes. Can you do this at level 12? ;) No, but you aren't Mass Holding at 12 either, and are probably only rarely using the single-target version at that point, for that matter, especially if we're talking about normal, which is what you're doing. When things die in 2-4 hits, it's simply not worth casting a debuff on a single monste


You seem to be fixating on only one part of the game. The impact might be debatable on what the fortification does and whether it can be worked around and that is easy enough to acknowledge but you have yet to dispute the comment that most of the damage increases that came were from equipment and not classes. Equipment does not magically appear for any new player. I'm focusing on one part of the game, because nothing else has changed that would warrant this part of the discussion. What quests aren't completable by new players on normal? More importantly, for what reasons aren't they completable?

I keep talking about The Shroud, because people are pointing to that and saying the devs made it too hard, and because you are referring to that as an example of something out of reach of new players.



A new quest chain for levels 4-6 could be the beginning of one of the new story arcs down the road, for example, and we don't need new players stepping off the boat from Korthos or jumping in on their veteran character they've never played or bought from the store and then get scared off as they fall flat on their faces because the development team decided that it should be challenging on normal for 3rd life TR's with 4.3 million plat for consumables and a level 75 guild. That doesn't build up the player base. Is that happening? I thought that new players enjoyed the Sharn series. Carnival is pretty easy on normal.


I want you to understand I am talking about what I consider the bigger picture in my comments and that they may or may not be in regards to low, medium, or high levels because we will find new players and eventually new content at various for everyone including those new players.
It's all well and good to say that here, but it's completely disconnected from what you've been saying throughout the rest of your posts. You say you aren't talking about specific levels, but you keep referring to stuff that appears at only high levels or is irrelevant at low levels.

And as for DPS boost coming from gear...everything I listed was from class abilities (mostly PrEs and spells). Do I really have to enumerate the changes that we've received to boost our DPS in the last 4 years that aren't tied to gear?



Barbarians got +2 Str and Con from Mighty Rage at level 20 and +2 Str from the capstone, as well as Frenzied Berserker which adds +6 Str, +6d6 damage per swing and x3 to their crit multiplier on 19-20 rolls, and Supreme Cleave.
Bards got a few more points on Inspire Courage and received Inspire Recklessness for direct DPS boosts. Spellsingers can help other casters run longer, acting as psuedo-DPS boosters.
Clerics got Divine Punishment and a way to funnel mana that would have been used for healing into DPS (Aura/Burst/more efficient heals/regenerating turns).
Fighters got Kensei, which adds +2 damage (+4 for 2-handers), +2 damage from new enhancements, +1 to threat range, 10% doubel-strike on their capstone and Power Surge for +8 Str, not to mention better Stun DCs; and Stalwart, which adds +6 Str and enough extra HP for them to keep on swinging for a long time.

I'm not listing the rest of these, but suffice it to say that we got a ton of DPS from class abilities that everyone has access to.

[Farayon]

2) Some quests of equal level are not equally scaled in actual difficulty, especially on hard/elite.

3) The game has historically nerfed player strategy and smart play. D&D is not about narrowminded game play...otherwise it would be called WoW. It should not always be about who swings the hardest and who can nuke more. Smart play, intelligence, and strategy should be just as/if not more important. However, players usually end up getting punished for this.

4) More mob HP/fort is not a fix. Its just a grind of beatdowns. Not fun. Old school example: Skeleton Archers, they have more HP than anything similar and are relatively useless mobs. No one likes spending so much time beating them down, so we run by them. Then you added more of them, or doors that only open once we kill them all, or the infamous dungeon alert mechanic, etc.

5) There are those of us that do want to run a raid 100 times a life to get 1 item to run the next raid 100 times, etc. There are plenty that will, and good for them, I personally just don't care. However, do not just assume that everyone will, and scale everything towards those that do. I won't even run a raid 20 times. The game isn't called Dungeons of Grinding.

From all the excellent and dedicated posts in this thread, this post maybe sums it up the best for me.

[Vormaerin]

A new quest chain for levels 4-6 could be the beginning of one of the new story arcs down the road, for example, and we don't need new players stepping off the boat from Korthos or jumping in on their veteran character they've never played or bought from the store and then get scared off as they fall flat on their faces because the development team decided that it should be challenging on normal for 3rd life TR's with 4.3 million plat for consumables and a level 75 guild. That doesn't build up the player base.



I want at least one example of what the heck you are talking about. Even if we ignore the fact that the "fresh off Korthos" folks actually run the same old harbor quests that everyone has run since 2006 before they wander off into "new" content, I don't believe in the slightest that this hypothetical of yours is happening.

What are the chain quests in the 3-6 range?

Waterworks
Shantokor
Catacombs
Sharn Syndicate
Phiarlan Carnival
Tangleroot?

Are you seriously arguing that new players are being scared off by any of those on normal even if the completely skip the rest of the harbor (which they don't)?

Further, what is this utter nonsense about noobs with never before played lvl 4s bought from the store? Very few players buy veteran before they do anything else in the game. And, if they do, do we really need to mollycoddle them when the obvious solution is to play the easier content that they tried to skip?

[Aashrym]

Uh...undead appear in about 1.5 of the 5 Sentinels quests, and the .5 doesn't even need to be run to flag for Tides. Black Loch is definitely not the hardest of the quests in the series, and the hardest enemies in the quest are the casters and the hobgoblins (bugbears? I can never tell the difference). I just ran these, and the undead were definitely not the problem, and certainly not for being undead.

Did you run them with a new character on a new server without the resources your currently have to supply?


Actually, we're getting more and more items with Earthgrab on them. The challenges and alchemical items have Earthgrab access, and we're getting more access to Shroud ingredients which makes crafting an Earthgrab greensteel more reasonable as well. Earth Savant sorcerers also gain the ability to use this attack.

Oh, and we've gotten Stone Prison which (I think) works on some of these enemies (at least on elementals) and is also showing up on items in addition to being a monk attack.

This would be equipment again, which I flat out stating new players don't have so content should not be balanced on normal as if they do. That was a question in the original post.


We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'


We got MUCH more DPS. There's really no way around accepting that.

Then accept the fact that damage from equipment went up significantly and that is still something a new player won't have. There is no denying equipment was a huge factor in any damage increases starting with greensteel and this is still something we should not expect new players to instantly have.


Nooo. We didn't. Damage went down due to the helplessness change in parties that are melee-heavy with low caster-based DPS in high level content. In quests with a lot of caster damage, or at low level, DPS got ramped up in a big way, and even in that narrow niche where it dropped a bit, it did so only a small amount, and in most of that content, the drop was less than the drop in enemy HP, which means that relative damage went up.

It wasn't just autocrit although that was a big one on my picks. It was also the changes to TWF and THF glancing blows while moving. Back to my point though, any damage increases were increased more with things new players do not yet have. Content should be based on the new players and not the geared players.


FvS can drop Fort. Both Light and Dark monks can. Destruction does. Improved Sunder does. Rogues can personally and against constructs for the group. Artificers can on constructs. A couple new Challenge items can for constructs and undead. I'm probably leaving out a couple.

If they have a FvS. If they have a monk. If they have a weapon with destruction or improved destruction. If they were able to fit improved sunder into their feats yet. I would not expect every new player to have access to everything listed. This is something that can work and be planned around because we will have other players. This is not something that works well for new players if it is required and if content is getting balanced for 'uber players' because that means if the player doesn't have the equipment to be ready for the content then the player will have trouble getting it because he's not ready to run that content. That's a catch 22.


We haven't gotten more undead and constructs at the low levels. They were already packed with undead, and were largely not very fun for rogues as of 5 years ago. Nothing has changed, except that we have received better tools for dealing with this stuff.

I would like to keep it that way. Are you agreeing that undead are still not fun for rogues? Also, what are these tools new players would have if we were to suddenly have if a new low level quest were to appear that was balanced for multiple TR's?


No, but you aren't Mass Holding at 12 either, and are probably only rarely using the single-target version at that point, for that matter, especially if we're talking about normal, which is what you're doing. When things die in 2-4 hits, it's simply not worth casting a debuff on a single monste

I used to single target hold monster all the time at that level when I came back to the game. For the same reasons I am reinforcing my opinion: The monsters did not drop in 2-4 hits because I did not have the same quality of gear players who have been around for a while had.


I'm focusing on one part of the game, because nothing else has changed that would warrant this part of the discussion. What quests aren't completable by new players on normal? More importantly, for what reasons aren't they completable?

I'm answering the question in the OP. Nothing else may have changed yet but that has absolutely nothing to do with future development. Generally if someone asks for an opinion on how the difficulty of the game should be scaled in general I provide my opinion based on what I would like to see and what I would not like to see, and why.

Ultimately content should be scaled to new players regardless of level. You would be better off asking the dev's which quests new players might be having issues with or if they have a concern and that is why they asked. All I have is an opinion on why I think we should not scale normal difficulty to uber players.


I keep talking about The Shroud, because people are pointing to that and saying the devs made it too hard, and because you are referring to that as an example of something out of reach of new players.

Just to be clear (and I apologize if I was not earlier) I actually think The Shroud normal is within the reach of a new player. I think the blades should have a save based on my expectations of game mechanics and think no defense mechanisms are cheesy.

I want players to understand that does not mean every single character or class does not need 400+ hit points to run this quest on normal. I do not want the dev's to make changes that balance it for higher level characters who might claim they want more challenge in the shroud when running it on normal.

I also want a few players out there to realize that the blades can hurt, that when the raid leader calls out blades the appropriate response is not, 'We have good DPS just heal through it' followed by several dings. Not to mention any names or anything on G-Land. :D


Is that happening? I thought that new players enjoyed the Sharn series. Carnival is pretty easy on normal.

I enjoyed Sharn. When it came out I had several friends complain about it though. They wiped on the end fight in come out and slay because they were not expecting so many casters. They wiped quite a few times on that until they learned the game a bit better and could afford some consumables.

I still hear players complain about the auto fail in bookbinder when I have no issues with it while running through those levels again.

The biggest issue I hear from any of them with the carnival series was party crashers and swarmed by mobs because they couldn't make the jump to go over top, missing the jumps in small problem, and the traps on the wheels in big top.

That is the kind of thing I'm talking about though. I have no trouble with those quests but I cannot say if Turbine is balancing them out based on what I might have, what you might have on TR, or what a brand new player does not have. What I know is MadFloyd asked how we think it should be balanced. ;)


It's all well and good to say that here, but it's completely disconnected from what you've been saying throughout the rest of your posts. You say you aren't talking about specific levels, but you keep referring to stuff that appears at only high levels or is irrelevant at low levels.

I did state in one of the posts that I was at work and apologized for disjointed information. That happens when I am busy or sleepy. ;)


And as for DPS boost coming from gear...everything I listed was from class abilities (mostly PrEs and spells). Do I really have to enumerate the changes that we've received to boost our DPS in the last 4 years that aren't tied to gear?

I removed that list because it's going to just lead our discussion back in a circle. If we look at any specific class it doesn't matter on our opinions about the damage increase from the class or not because the class is the same whether a player is new or whether the player has been here 3 years.

The difference between what any class at any level when comparing a new player to a seasoned player is experience (learned or taught), and equipment, guild, plat, possibly past lives.

I want to bring our focus back to this: Do you think content that comes out (it doesn't have to be existing content) should be developed with the intent to balance the challenge based on what a new player might realistically have or what player with more equipment than he knows what to do with? I stated new players.

That question is why I keep coming back to equipment. It's one of the main differences between players.

I'm apologizing for any disjointed information again. ;)

[Vormaerin]

Did you run them with a new character on a new server without the resources your currently have to supply?



Yes, I have. The Undead in Sentinels are in no way a significant element of the series or a big threat.

Anyone who is running sentinels has survived Catacombs, all the undead scattered through the lvl 4-5 Deneith, Phiarlan, Kundarak, and Jorasco quests, and (most likely) Delera's.

They aren't impressed by the weaksauce undead of Sentinels.



I want to bring our focus back to this: Do you think content that comes out (it doesn't have to be existing content) should be developed with the intent to balance the challenge based on what a new player might realistically have or what player with more equipment than he knows what to do with? I stated new players.



That's all well and good, but you have to give some evidence that this is actually a problem. Where is the evidence they are balancing content, especially low level content, for twinked out vets? I sure don't see it.

[Aashrym]

I want at least one example of what the heck you are talking about. Even if we ignore the fact that the "fresh off Korthos" folks actually run the same old harbor quests that everyone has run since 2006 before they wander off into "new" content, I don't believe in the slightest that this hypothetical of yours is happening.

What are the chain quests in the 3-6 range?

Waterworks
Shantokor
Catacombs
Sharn Syndicate
Phiarlan Carnival
Tangleroot?

Are you seriously arguing that new players are being scared off by any of those on normal even if the completely skip the rest of the harbor (which they don't)?

Further, what is this utter nonsense about noobs with never before played lvl 4s bought from the store? Very few players buy veteran before they do anything else in the game. And, if they do, do we really need to mollycoddle them when the obvious solution is to play the easier content that they tried to skip?

No, I'm saying don't scare them off, but you can look at my comments on Sharn Syndicate and the Carnival in the above quote. The difference in twinked or geared characters and non twinked or geared characters is pretty apparent playing them so the real question is simply which should turbine be trying to balance the challenge for.

The comment on the level 4 character was that the character was not played before, not that the player didn't try the game if that is what you are saying. You should probably play with one sometime to determine if they are noobs or not before making that assumption. ;)

[Aashrym]

Yes, I have. The Undead in Sentinels are in no way a significant element of the series or a big threat.

Anyone who is running sentinels has survived Catacombs, all the undead scattered through the lvl 4-5 Deneith, Phiarlan, Kundarak, and Jorasco quests, and (most likely) Delera's.

They aren't impressed by the weaksauce undead of Sentinels.



That's all well and good, but you have to give some evidence that this is actually a problem. Where is the evidence they are balancing content, especially low level content, for twinked out vets? I sure don't see it.

A person running sentinel might not have catacombs and might not have delera's. I would expect delera's for XP but that would be an assumption. I have the conversations with friends and they were having issues on their new character, many of them rogues.

I think that is a discussion getting off on a tangent. Undead are frustrating for some players and impact the difficulty for some classes. There isn't evidence of it. It's a question on what they should be doing listed in the OP.

My answer is still to balance content for new players.

[karhon]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?


Personally, I like the current variety of difficulties(For the most part). Something for everyone, you just have to look for it to make it most fun for your playstyle.

I also feel that's near impossible to balance out that, for example, all lvl 10 quests are equally challenging on N\H\E. Some will be tougher, some will not. They have different type of mobs, traps, designed differently and so on. Some will have easier time doing it, some won't. At most you could do is check out which are ran the least and why that is the case.

However, there are quests which are over the top (Someone mentioned In the flesh earlier in the thread?) which seem to be inconsistent in the term of difference in challenge (like getting warmed up for a nice easy walk only to end up doing a marathon).

Also, I disliked messing you did with the old raids, even though some changes are applauded (To me it just seems you guys have a bipolar disorder or something through last 2 updates). If you wish to cater to powergamers, please do not do it by changing existing raids (300k+ hp abbot and evasion, really?). Just fix what was broken with old ones, and introduce new ones that will challenge said powergamers. New players will eventually come to that level as well, and old players will have something new to do.

Also, I do not expect to succeed every run I make, normal or epic, and yes, while it is frustrating at times, it's all part of the game.

[Vormaerin]

No, I'm saying don't scare them off, but you can look at my comments on Sharn Syndicate and the Carnival in the above quote. The difference in twinked or geared characters and non twinked or geared characters is pretty apparent playing them so the real question is simply which should turbine be trying to balance the challenge for.

The comment on the level 4 character was that the character was not played before, not that the player didn't try the game if that is what you are saying. You should probably play with one sometime to determine if they are noobs or not before making that assumption. ;)


The difference between twinked and untwinked characters is pretty apparent in all content. Twinked, guilded guys completely faceroll any lowbie content even on elite. The rest of us have to put in a bit more effort.

I'm not a new player, as you can see from my join date. But I don't twink. All my characters are first lifers and all of them exist pretty much on what they can get questing themselves. About the only exception is +skills items for my rogues.

So I know how that content plays on new characters with minimal gear. No, I'm not clueless about how to play, which is why I run everything on hard or elite, but the content is absolutely NOT too hard for the CHARACTERS that a new player is likely to have.

I spent about an hour in game the other day teaching a lvl 4 ranger how spells worked and what he needed to do to actually use them (he had an 8 Wisdom, which is not a bad vet plan, but he didn't know how to deal with it). So I know full well that inexperienced players can have problems.

But that's got nothing to do with any supposed balancing for twinked characters, which I see no evidence of whatsoever.

[Vormaerin]

A person running sentinel might not have catacombs and might not have delera's. I would expect delera's for XP but that would be an assumption. I have the conversations with friends and they were having issues on their new character, many of them rogues.

I think that is a discussion getting off on a tangent. Undead are frustrating for some players and impact the difficulty for some classes. There isn't evidence of it. It's a question on what they should be doing listed in the OP.

My answer is still to balance content for new players.

Undead do suck for rogues and they aren't really great for anyone else, for that matter. The same is true of robot dogs, oozes, and a few other things that are rather abundant in the game.

Luckily, a number of the oozes in the game were replaced by bats (though not everyone thinks that's an improvement).

However, anyone whose first experience with undead is the pansy versions in the Sentinels series is pretty far ahead of the frustration curve if you ask me. I don't feel sorry for them at all. The rest of us suffered a whole lot more.

[Claver]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

Turbine has been doing a little better as of late making newer content more accessible on Normal. Take Schemes of the Enemy from Update 11, I solved the puzzle and completed the quest solo on Normal my first time through as opposed to Sins of Attrition which after 80 minutes of soloing on CASUAL I simply abandoned due to time constraints. Compare a quest like Siegebreaker or The Missing with an older quest like The Crucible - which is more challenging for a small group unfamiliar with the quest to complete on Normal?

There are so many ways in the game now to facilitate success it almost feels like cheating:
- Hirelings
- Dungeon Scaling
- Iron Defenders/Pale Master Undead Summons
- Augment Summons Feat
- Festivault Cookies
- Air Elemental Summons from Pirate Cove event (This is my big fat red easy panic button)
- Shipbuffs - my how that has trivialized many low level quests
- House P buffs
- TRs in the party with past life feats and twinked gear (Greensteel is soooo balanced)
- Crafted gear for your specific needs

Normal has never been easier! Perhaps some quests throughout the game could be brought on par with each other (and the EXPERIENCE adjusted appropriately) but overall I am happy with the ease of Normal.

Where I am dissatisfied is with the lack of difficulty of Elite (more on this later).


the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

One of the best things about DDO is the customization of characters. I can play whatever I want - crazy builds like monk with 6 levels of wizard for Pale Master so that I can fight in Zombie form. I shouldn't expect to shine in raids or be able to acquire the top gear with these strange character choices but it is important to me and I would argue for the game to be able to experience much of the content with suboptimal FUN builds. If the game were so difficult that we were all pushed into playing just certain builds (two weapon fighter or pale master etc.) to be able to experience the newer challenging content the game would lose interest.

Here are MY expectation for difficulty. This is what I would consider Ideal Turbine

NORMAL: First time through fail 50% of the time. Second time through with good game play and a group who is also familiar with the quest fail less than 7.5% of the time. Only lower tier named loot available. Solo play should permit access to 50% of the quest content. Some areas/puzzles may require multiple players to access or need specialist (locked doors, wisdom runes, etc.).

HARD: Almost impossible to solo - it should require a group of 4 or more. 50% of named loot available. 50% chance of failure for sloppy game play - party splitting up, running through traps, or even being too impatient to wait for bard songs and buff before a major fight.

ELITE: No Scaling. It should be impossible for ME to solo (maybe an uber player but not someone casual like me). 100% chance of failure for sloppy game play and a 5% chance of failure even if the party plays well (sometimes even the boss monster rolls a 20). Top tier named loot can ONLY be obtained by running elite.

RAIDS: I see raids as different from quests. While every character, even unusual builds, should be able to experience the content of quests, this does not necessarily hold true for raids -especially as it pertains to soloing. I would skew My difficulty scale for raids moving Normal a little closer to hard, hard a little closer to Elite and leave Elite as it is.

CHALLENGES: This is a new animal so I'm not sure how to rate these. It seems like they should be party focused rather than solo focused (although I solo them almost exclusively). I would say solo play should be able to achieve 2-3 success while 5 star success would mandate an extremely capable party.


This my ideal set-up. Returning back to DDO as it stands today, the game doesn't seem as challenging in part because it lacks good incentives for making the effort of running Elite at lower and lower levels.

The bravery xp bonus is an excellent start but lets go further and motivate people who are driven to acquire loot. What if loot drops were based on your level relative to level and difficulty of the quest.

Say you wanted the Garments of Equilibrium from Siegebreaker which is a level 13 quest. Say the Garments have a 0.1% of dropping on normal, a 0.5% chance of dropping on hard and a 1% chance of dropping on Elite.

Each level below the set level of the quest increases your chance of getting the loot by an additional 1% with a bonus +2% for every 3 levels below capped at a maximum of 10%. Each level ABOVE the set level would need to subtract -.2% to discourage people for just taking overpowered toons into quests for loot runs (Chronoscope I'm talking to you!!!!).

So, Siegebreaker Elite is a 15 level quest

Highest party member level is 15 the chance for Garments = 1%
If a party of level 14 runs Siegebreaker on Elite chance for Garments is 2%
Level 13s versus Siegebreaker on Elite chance for Garments is 3%
Level 12s versus Siegebreaker on Elite chance for Garments is 5%
Level 11 on Elite chance is 6%
Level 10 on Elite versus level 15 Siege breaker chance for Garments is 7%
Level 9 on Elite chance is 9%
Level 8 on Elite would cap out at 10% and if the level 8s can complete Siegebreaker on Elite they deserve their loot!

If an overpowered character such as a level 19 ran the level 15 quest their chance for the Garments under this system would be 0.2% wheres a level 16 character would have a 0.8% chance for the garments.


These percentages were arbitrary. I am not proposing this system per se but there should be some disincentive when it comes to running content above level for loot and some incentive and reward for taking on challenges below level.

Help give us good reasons to play Elite turbine.

[EatSmart]

Epic quests are too easy. (Epic Raids seem ok)

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7701/screenshot00257.jpg

1st life sorceror with bad gear. Solo clearing the quest, including all optionals. Note the Necro DC of 33, this was not done by simply wailing everything. (That is a seperate discussion) This character is conspicuously missing: shroud HP item, shroud SP item, bauble, torc. She does have an eardweller (used 2 clicks on Inrakos, but nothing on the other bosses). Her gear has improved since the screenshot, but at the time her "best" item was a teir 1 wind bracer. Some of her gear included the min level 5 version of abishai boots and cloak because I was too lazy to ever replace them. Also, she was using level 53 airship buffs. (so no + stats, and perma-resists of 20)

I would be fine with this quest being completed with 4+ characters geared like this as house P is traditionally the "entry" level for epic questing. Epic was billed as being extremely challenging content for end game play, and I dont feel that it is. As a derail since we're here: I'd ideally like to see scrolls being distributed through chests that require completion of optional objectives, with the drop rate being influenced by how early in the quest that optional is. (so Inrakos in partycrashers would have a high drop rate, but mandible in snitch would have a low drop rate) Scroll being dropped on kills were supposed to encourage taking risks to do more of the quest potentially failing the quest as a result (or at least requiring resources). Currently they encourage soloing a small early subset of a quest where a large group of mobs can be AOEd in safety.

Epic balance does need to be talked about hand in hand with class balance though. Currently some fun well balanced quests (eg Epic Chains of Flame) are actually paced well even with a good caster in the group, but once you get 2-3 decent casters in there we bend it over and make it call us ***** as we speed zerg. I dont want a return to the "casters only mass hold and buff" days though, so I'm not sure what can be done to fix the issue.

[Ungood]

2700+ Spell Points and 300+ Hp on a wizard is Bad Gear?

Alright, Ummm. Yah. I suppose we will just have to disagree at were That Bad Gear line is drawn.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

... <snip> ...
You're clearly writing from the perspective of a well equipped, well funded veteran who knows very well how to twink their characters. If the "back in the day, we needed to walk barefoot, backward, uphill in the snow" reference wasn't a dead giveaway, then the detailed list of ways to trivialize normal difficulty certainly was.

Indirectly and probably without any such intention, you point out a key source of difficulty for efforts to retain newer and casual players, which is the level of complexity of DDO online. The budgeting process for MMOs, in general, is based around making each game "bigger and better", which leads to a higher level of complexity over time. Various kinds of complexity are a source of revenue for the DDO store, as well, which gives Turbine a perverse incentive to add even more complexity over time than they otherwise might (ie: more P2P classes and races, more consumables of various kinds, such as ingredients, more ...), without ever going on a "simplicity diet" (which brings in no incremental revenue). A key problem is that a constant increase in complexity becomes toxic to efforts to retain newer (and some casual) players at some point that is probably quite difficult to see in advance. I don't envy Turbine the challenge of striking that particular balance, as I'm not certain how they can best address that issue.

On another note, a heartfelt "/unsigned" on access to 50% of content for solo players. Just scale the dungeons for the number of players so that failure rates aren't wildly different, whether solo or partied, for any given difficulty level, and keep the substantial majority of content open to players of all kinds. Balance challenges the same way. Solo-unfriendly development is player unfriendly development, and a major turnoff for a portion of those who currently play this game.

[ristretto93]

Casual was introduced (IMO) as the never fail difficulty. Normal should still have some challenge to it.
On a scale of 1-10 though (10 being the hardest), I think:
casual should be a 1
normal should be a 3
hard should be a 6
elite should be an 8
epic should be a 10


Currently, normal is closer to a 2 and hard is closer to a 4
The difference between hard and elite is night and day

I kind of like this scale of 1-10 idea...I would change it a little though. First, I do not think there should be guaranteed success on even the easiest difficulty. I think that stupid play should earn quick failure. That said, the Casual difficulty should be as close to assured success as it gets. Using the 1-10 idea as above:

Note that I am pretty much just looking at the quests used to level a character...say 1-16ish - higher lvl stuff and raids while I do some of this stuff I think there are people way more qualified to give feedback than me.

Casual:1-3 (currently @about .5)
Normal:4-6 (currently is @ about 2-3)
Hard:7-8 (currently is @ about 4-5...its time that the the word 'hard' actually imply a notable challenge)
Elite:9-10 (currently about 7ish? - come on, step this up and make it TOUGH and then add more tough after that)
Epic: As this is ONLY for well geared and experienced lvl20 characters I do not think that it should be on this scale at all, in fact it should be well above this scale or the word 'epic' has been misused.

There is a lot of variation in quests of similar level, thus the range (4-6) instead of a set number. An example would be Proof is in the Poison as a lvl 4 quest vs. Depths of D...(which ever are the lvl4 ones). Proof is tough (at least before ship buffs) at level even on normal. The Depths of D quests are quite easy. Both are level 4... I dont necessarily think one should be made easier or one made harder. I think it provides options with variety for people of that level depending on the level of challenge they want - even at the same difficulty.

I do think the normal difficulty is too easy. I think casual should be bumped up to where normal is now, and have its exp reward bumped up as well. Even new undergeared players should be able to complete on normal if the difficulty was increased, and if not, the casual option should give adequate rewards for newer players to make it worth some time put in.

When it comes to increasing the challenge, I agree with the people who are saying that this does NOT mean to just add more HP to the mobs and to give it some extra fortification. Consider things that make situations tougher - fewer shrines, more areas where mobs respawn and mechanics like this rather that longer fights with trash mobs. I'm confident that the development staff there at Turbine can come up with more than HP and fort to challenge players.

EDIT: Consider making more timed quests as a method of increasing the challenge for higher difficulty settings. I love timed quests, and the idea of having to move fast in order to succeed (think Freshen the Air, Dead Girl, necro3 crypt, etc.) and I think adding this mechanic to quests that are not timed on normal or hard to elite quests would add to the fun as well as cater to a large part of the experienced player base (long live the Zerg!).

Also: Im not going to sit here and say casters are overpowered. I dont think they should be nerfed. I do think they are underchallenged though. In fact, I avoid playing arcanes altogether because I feel melee characters get the best of the active combat aspect of the game and get challenged a lot more than casters. Find ways to make life harder for them (again without nerfing), and that will weed out the people who just play arcanes for the easy ride.

[Claver]

On another note, a heartfelt "/unsigned" on access to 50% of content for solo players. Just scale the dungeons for the number of players so that failure rates aren't wildly different, whether solo or partied, for any given difficulty level, and keep the substantial majority of content open to players of all kinds. Balance challenges the same way. Solo-unfriendly development is player unfriendly development, and a major turnoff for a portion of those who currently play this game.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same things. I'm not saying solo players should fail on normal 50% of the time. Nor am I saying that 50% of ALL quests available in the game should be capable of being solo'd and the other 50% of ALL quest should not be able to be solo'd. Rather, 100% of quest should be able to be soloed in quest on Normal (I too solo quite frequently) rather than requiring a party for completion. Within DDO there are a number of quests that favor having a party or having specific skills. I don't think that should change. For me the strength of DDO is that it promotes group play and emulates D&D where set skills are of value. I would ask the developers of the game to design quests that can still be accessed by solo players even if the content can be more fully realized by a full party. If my fighter can't open a locked door or get past a deadly trap or detect a secret door or open a locked chest for a key or use a wisdom rune to access an area of the dungeon or stand on 4 separate pressure plates similtaneously to open a gate as in the Necropolis -- then that shouldn't prevent me from completing the quest. I'm ok with missing out on part of the quest if I choose to solo but no more than 50% of that particular quest content should be "optional" (Tear of Daarkhann is a good example). If I want to experience the missing content than I better rerun as rogue or with a hireling or a cleric friend but I should be able to complete the quest itself the first time around by myself (and loot at least half the chests i.e 50%)

[Claver]

This is a scary proposal, but what about a casual option for raids for beginners? This would give people the ability to run raids that they normally can't get in or complete and at least learn the raid or learn what to expect. Make no raid loot drop from casual completions and the casual completions should not count towards their raid counter. This way they would still get random loot, but only benefit from the learning experience.

I would very much like this. For me, one of the greatest joys is going through a quest at my own pace spoiler free with the DM narration turned up reading all the background text. Raids rarely provide an opportunity to do this; someone often has an agenda. Its usually serious business for someone. Having a casual named loot Free option would provide many different benefits.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

I'm not sure we are talking about the same things. I'm not saying solo players should fail on normal 50% of the time. Nor am I saying that 50% of ALL quests available in the game should be capable of being solo'd and the other 50% of ALL quest should not be able to be solo'd. Rather, 100% of quest should be able to be soloed in quest on Normal (I too solo quite frequently) rather than requiring a party for completion. Within DDO there are a number of quests that favor having a party or having specific skills. I don't think that should change. For me the strength of DDO is that it promotes group play and emulates D&D where set skills are of value. I would ask the developers of the game to design quests that can still be accessed by solo players even if the content can be more fully realized by a full party. If my fighter can't open a locked door or get past a deadly trap or detect a secret door or open a locked chest for a key or use a wisdom rune to access an area of the dungeon or stand on 4 separate pressure plates similtaneously to open a gate as in the Necropolis -- then that shouldn't prevent me from completing the quest. I'm ok with missing out on part of the quest if I choose to solo but no more than 50% of that particular quest content should be "optional" (Tear of Daarkhann is a good example). If I want to experience the missing content than I better rerun as rogue or with a hireling or a cleric friend but I should be able to complete the quest itself the first time around by myself (and loot at least half the chests i.e 50%)
I had some difficulty figuring out exactly what you meant, in your earlier post. This response goes a long way toward clearing it up for me.

Having incentives to party seems like a very good idea -- one other MMO I play made the mistake of giving little incentive to team and I have experienced firsthand how that one choice has led to a game composed mostly of solo players, with very little teaming. And, D&D was always about team play, so that stays true to the source material, as well.

Having a kind of "rule of thumb" regarding a floor for the amount of content that can be solo'd, in a given mission, also seems to me to be a good idea.

On a semi-related note, Tears is one of my favorite missions. Pure win.

[sephiroth1084]

Aashrym, if your entire argument is that, going forward, normal content should continue to be balanced around the expectations placed on new players, then I agree, but I don't know why you've been arguing about that for pages and pages, since that is very much the case for most quests.

As for players failing on normal because of a quest mechanic, I'm fine with that. Just because it's normal doesn't mean that there shouldn't be danger, or that people shouldn't have to learn how to avoid it or find a better approach to completion. If players can't fail normal content they will have no respect for the challenges presented in Hard, Elite and Epic content. Too much of the game already gives a free pass to poor or dumb play--it's the reason that we see so many players with HP that is much too low in the later levels.

And to address gear, some expectations should be placed on everyone. You shouldn't be able to complete The Shroud wearing Korthos and Chronoscope items. If there is no emphasis on gearing up, why would anyone bother? There has to be a balance between simply leveling as fast as you can, and having to sidetrack the XP grab to acquire some equipment to continue pressing forward. Sure, there are difference in gear between vets and newer players, but that largely means that the vets can, and should, be running content on hard or elite, and not normal. Again, The Shroud is the poster-child for the "content has been scaled out of the reach of new players in order to challenge vets," but the scaling up of HP I see in there seems more directly related to all of the non-gear bonuses we've received. You keep trying to discount those, playing up gear, or talking about this was nerfed or that was, but the fact remains that everyone got a rather large DPS bump in the last 2 years (except rangers) and that the content had to be scaled with that.

Hold Monster in the low levels didn't lose much of anything. If it took 4 swings to kill something that is held, it now probably takes 6, since bonuses that weren't being doubled before are now, and it got significantly improved from the caster's side of things. The change hasn't slowed down any content at all except for a few endgame quest packs when run on elite, and I already mentioned that, in those few cases, HP should be scaled back a little bit.

Finally, undead are not fun for rogues, no. On my rogues, I tend to avoid undead-heavy content as much as I can, and when I do go in, I get by okay because I buy or make excellent weapons...and I'm still not thrilled with it. That needs to be changed in some way.

[Impaqt]

Hey folks :)

played a lot last night and getting back into the game, but I've been watching and trying to keep up on things.....

havent run a shroud yet, but all the chatter I hear is that the blades are way overboard....

Seems to me that the raids in particular are being "Balanced" for end game well geared characters rather than level appropriate moderately geared toons. Shroud Normal is a Leel 16(17?), the adjustments are a bit excessive.

Its always been my feeling that normal shouldnt be too difficult. a group of casual gamers should be able to complete the quest in a reasonable time frame. Let hard and elite be the difficulties for people who want more challenge...

Of course, now we have this silly bravery bonus which encourages EVERYONE to want to run quests WAY over their capabilities. It looked like a bad idea on paper to me, and after experiencing it.. I cant say I think its good. but thats another thread....

[FranOhmsford]

Turbine has been doing a little better as of late making newer content more accessible on Normal. Take Schemes of the Enemy from Update 11, I solved the puzzle and completed the quest solo on Normal my first time through as opposed to Sins of Attrition which after 80 minutes of soloing on CASUAL I simply abandoned due to time constraints. Compare a quest like Siegebreaker or The Missing with an older quest like The Crucible - which is more challenging for a small group unfamiliar with the quest to complete on Normal?

There are so many ways in the game now to facilitate success it almost feels like cheating:
- Hirelings
- Dungeon Scaling
- Iron Defenders/Pale Master Undead Summons
- Augment Summons Feat
- Festivault Cookies
- Air Elemental Summons from Pirate Cove event (This is my big fat red easy panic button)
- Shipbuffs - my how that has trivialized many low level quests
- House P buffs
- TRs in the party with past life feats and twinked gear (Greensteel is soooo balanced)
- Crafted gear for your specific needs

Normal has never been easier! Perhaps some quests throughout the game could be brought on par with each other (and the EXPERIENCE adjusted appropriately) but overall I am happy with the ease of Normal.

Where I am dissatisfied is with the lack of difficulty of Elite (more on this later).



One of the best things about DDO is the customization of characters. I can play whatever I want - crazy builds like monk with 6 levels of wizard for Pale Master so that I can fight in Zombie form. I shouldn't expect to shine in raids or be able to acquire the top gear with these strange character choices but it is important to me and I would argue for the game to be able to experience much of the content with suboptimal FUN builds. If the game were so difficult that we were all pushed into playing just certain builds (two weapon fighter or pale master etc.) to be able to experience the newer challenging content the game would lose interest.

Here are MY expectation for difficulty. This is what I would consider Ideal Turbine

NORMAL: First time through fail 50% of the time. Second time through with good game play and a group who is also familiar with the quest fail less than 7.5% of the time. Only lower tier named loot available. Solo play should permit access to 50% of the quest content. Some areas/puzzles may require multiple players to access or need specialist (locked doors, wisdom runes, etc.).

HARD: Almost impossible to solo - it should require a group of 4 or more. 50% of named loot available. 50% chance of failure for sloppy game play - party splitting up, running through traps, or even being too impatient to wait for bard songs and buff before a major fight.

ELITE: No Scaling. It should be impossible for ME to solo (maybe an uber player but not someone casual like me). 100% chance of failure for sloppy game play and a 5% chance of failure even if the party plays well (sometimes even the boss monster rolls a 20). Top tier named loot can ONLY be obtained by running elite.

RAIDS: I see raids as different from quests. While every character, even unusual builds, should be able to experience the content of quests, this does not necessarily hold true for raids -especially as it pertains to soloing. I would skew My difficulty scale for raids moving Normal a little closer to hard, hard a little closer to Elite and leave Elite as it is.

CHALLENGES: This is a new animal so I'm not sure how to rate these. It seems like they should be party focused rather than solo focused (although I solo them almost exclusively). I would say solo play should be able to achieve 2-3 success while 5 star success would mandate an extremely capable party.


This my ideal set-up. Returning back to DDO as it stands today, the game doesn't seem as challenging in part because it lacks good incentives for making the effort of running Elite at lower and lower levels.

The bravery xp bonus is an excellent start but lets go further and motivate people who are driven to acquire loot. What if loot drops were based on your level relative to level and difficulty of the quest.

Say you wanted the Garments of Equilibrium from Siegebreaker which is a level 13 quest. Say the Garments have a 0.1% of dropping on normal, a 0.5% chance of dropping on hard and a 1% chance of dropping on Elite.

Each level below the set level of the quest increases your chance of getting the loot by an additional 1% with a bonus +2% for every 3 levels below capped at a maximum of 10%. Each level ABOVE the set level would need to subtract -.2% to discourage people for just taking overpowered toons into quests for loot runs (Chronoscope I'm talking to you!!!!).

So, Siegebreaker Elite is a 15 level quest

Highest party member level is 15 the chance for Garments = 1%
If a party of level 14 runs Siegebreaker on Elite chance for Garments is 2%
Level 13s versus Siegebreaker on Elite chance for Garments is 3%
Level 12s versus Siegebreaker on Elite chance for Garments is 5%
Level 11 on Elite chance is 6%
Level 10 on Elite versus level 15 Siege breaker chance for Garments is 7%
Level 9 on Elite chance is 9%
Level 8 on Elite would cap out at 10% and if the level 8s can complete Siegebreaker on Elite they deserve their loot!

If an overpowered character such as a level 19 ran the level 15 quest their chance for the Garments under this system would be 0.2% wheres a level 16 character would have a 0.8% chance for the garments.


These percentages were arbitrary. I am not proposing this system per se but there should be some disincentive when it comes to running content above level for loot and some incentive and reward for taking on challenges below level.

Help give us good reasons to play Elite turbine.

I've been playing DDO for almost 2 years now.

I have one TR {currently level 7}, one capped Cleric and a bunch of characters between lvl 4 and 17.

On no character have I flagged for raids before over levelling the normal level of that raid.

I regularly run quests on elite for -99%xp.

I prefer to start my own groups when not soloing rather than joining other people's.

So by your rules I'm never going to get any useful loot.

No thank you.

[ArcaneMelee]

...Help give us good reasons to play Elite turbine.

There is already a good reason to play Elite - because you find the other settings too easy.

Giving "good reasons to play Elite" will just cause the people who aren't capable of rising to the challenge feel like second-rate citizens, thus feeding the cycle of "easy-button, too-hard, easy-button, too-hard, ..."

If the only reason one will run truly challenging content is to become even more powerful, they aren't looking for a challenge. Just the opposite, actually.

[Kurukaze]

Here it comes;

I and my GF, duo the game, sometimes I solo a little.

The variance in difficulty between areas and quest lines is pretty great, and this causes us no end of headache. As it is we have stopped playing around lvl 15-16, because we cannot get though most content at our level on normal. We don't get to go on raids and mods take us a lot longer to complete.

So it is that we level very slowly, and get pretty **** gear as it is, farming and grinding is not fun for us because we don't play games for tedium. So making end rewards dependent on difficulty setting alone is just not going to appeal to us well, ever.

What we have discussed would be great is if more mods took into account the number of participants in the mod, as well as the difficulty and was able to scale to some extent.

As far as gear is concerned, have it expected that most of the gear will be along the lines of what can be cannith crafted at that level. That way if someone has their stick of hu'na they got in some fit of luck, then it is cool and good on them, instead of expected.

As far as the vocal minority that loves posting how easy this game is and how they want it to only be for their super elite endless hours of their life spent memorizing each mod, twinking and perfecting equipment, characters give them a mode for that call it what you like, "impossible but for the spectacularly dedicated difficulty" or whatever. Let them have a pip on their name or whatever. I just don't want to have to compete.

I am not a casual player, it is not by accident that I play.
I play to have a good time, I play because it is hard to get a game of D&D together, I play to spend time with my GF, and have some fun.

Further the powercurve in this game gets kinda crazy around 9-12th level, Things like the need for absurdly high Armor Class and npc hit points should not just scale into the stratosphere.

[Ungood]

If the only reason one will run truly challenging content is to become even more powerful, they aren't looking for a challenge. Just the opposite, actually.

That is some epic Truth right there!

[Phemt81]

Epic quests are too easy. (Epic Raids seem ok)


http://static.tumblr.com/dqzhpsj/KFVlcpck8/o_rly2.jpg

[Aashrym]

Aashrym, if your entire argument is that, going forward, normal content should continue to be balanced around the expectations placed on new players, then I agree, but I don't know why you've been arguing about that for pages and pages, since that is very much the case for most quests.

I tend to over explain. If you saw that as arguing why did you decide to argue with me for pages and pages? ;)


As for players failing on normal because of a quest mechanic, I'm fine with that. Just because it's normal doesn't mean that there shouldn't be danger, or that people shouldn't have to learn how to avoid it or find a better approach to completion. If players can't fail normal content they will have no respect for the challenges presented in Hard, Elite and Epic content. Too much of the game already gives a free pass to poor or dumb play--it's the reason that we see so many players with HP that is much too low in the later levels.

If by danger you mean appropriate challenge for new players with gear that is reasonably obtained by the time they get to those levels then I agree.

The question would by why is there a need for those hit points in later levels. If those levels were to be balanced for reasonable equipment for uber players and not for regular players then the issue would be the content and not the gear or expectations.

At some point someone has to sit down and benchmark what is reasonable for a new player to obtain on a first life.


And to address gear, some expectations should be placed on everyone. You shouldn't be able to complete The Shroud wearing Korthos and Chronoscope items. If there is no emphasis on gearing up, why would anyone bother? There has to be a balance between simply leveling as fast as you can, and having to sidetrack the XP grab to acquire some equipment to continue pressing forward. Sure, there are difference in gear between vets and newer players, but that largely means that the vets can, and should, be running content on hard or elite, and not normal. Again, The Shroud is the poster-child for the "content has been scaled out of the reach of new players in order to challenge vets," but the scaling up of HP I see in there seems more directly related to all of the non-gear bonuses we've received. You keep trying to discount those, playing up gear, or talking about this was nerfed or that was, but the fact remains that everyone got a rather large DPS bump in the last 2 years (except rangers) and that the content had to be scaled with that.

That's moving away from my point again. My point is that new players do not have the resources seasoned players have. It still doesn't matter which content or what level or which class.

Obviously some expectations on gear should exist, but not, for example, a 14th level quest with the expectation of guild benefits, past lives, or greensteel items. To be clear, I am not saying this has been happening, to what extent, or where. I believe you and another player both asked me earlier if this was happening and asked for quest information.


We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player.

You have a quote from a dev admitting that is what has been happening.

I do not know at what level of gear or experience the development team was trying to balance content. I know a lot of players believe Shroud normal was adjusted for level 20's running it on normal. I cannot say which quests were intended to be balanced based for the 'uber player' or if shroud was one of them. What I know is that I think those quests should not be, regardless of any intended changes in the past or future.


Hold Monster in the low levels didn't lose much of anything. If it took 4 swings to kill something that is held, it now probably takes 6, since bonuses that weren't being doubled before are now, and it got significantly improved from the caster's side of things. The change hasn't slowed down any content at all except for a few endgame quest packs when run on elite, and I already mentioned that, in those few cases, HP should be scaled back a little bit.

Tell that to my casting bard who relied on it for the damage increase while soloing. ;)

Casters having more damage doesn't necessarily mean everyone has more damage. That would be much less of a topic for here and more of a topic for class balance.


Finally, undead are not fun for rogues, no. On my rogues, I tend to avoid undead-heavy content as much as I can, and when I do go in, I get by okay because I buy or make excellent weapons...and I'm still not thrilled with it. That needs to be changed in some way.

Yes, but my original comment seems to have gone way over what I intended with it. I was not stressing it as a major factor.

[Aashrym]

Hey folks :)

played a lot last night and getting back into the game, but I've been watching and trying to keep up on things.....

havent run a shroud yet, but all the chatter I hear is that the blades are way overboard....

Seems to me that the raids in particular are being "Balanced" for end game well geared characters rather than level appropriate moderately geared toons. Shroud Normal is a Leel 16(17?), the adjustments are a bit excessive.

Its always been my feeling that normal shouldnt be too difficult. a group of casual gamers should be able to complete the quest in a reasonable time frame. Let hard and elite be the difficulties for people who want more challenge...

Of course, now we have this silly bravery bonus which encourages EVERYONE to want to run quests WAY over their capabilities. It looked like a bad idea on paper to me, and after experiencing it.. I cant say I think its good. but thats another thread....

I don't think Shroud is as bad as some players are stating. It just takes some caution with the blades and acceptance of the fact it's okay to have a 2 rounder instead of a 1 rounder.

Elite streaking is nice for TR's but everyone seems to think they should be capable of running elite on first lives just because the streak exists and that isn't necessarily true. Leveling a first life goes pretty fast IMO.

[roguebaby]

My BF and I duo through most of the game. Our highest level characters are about 15/16 (but we have tons of alts)
We have sort of stopped advancing on our highest toons because I very much dislike pugging and that seems to be the only way to continue forward. We can't get into raids because we are not uber geared ect.

I love this game but sometimes it is frustrating. I do wish the system could tell if you have 2 players, no hirelings versus 6 players all with hirelings. I've noticed people scream about stuff being too easy, but they are also the first to say that they have a fully twinked, buffed, hired and filled group... sure things are easy then.

I do not find grinding for gear fun, so I don't have that gear. I enjoy the adventures, the dungeons, the story, NOT the grind. Why should we be punished for that by everything being made so hard we can't run it?

Someone above mentioned casual raids. I would love that. I have never gone on a raid... and I have been playing this game for years. But it can be hella intimidating to see how people expect you to know every corner of every mod and have specific high level gear for every different raid... I get performance anxiety ( :D ) and therefore know I will die like crazy or get totally lost during a raid, so therefore I don't try to join one and get yelled at for being a crappy player. It is sad, but that is the attitude that has been fostered here with your high level content.

I have a lot of fun running with my bf and soloing sometimes when he is busy, but as it stands, I will not see a lvl 20 toon :/

[Expalphalog]

As a "fresh off the boat from Korthos" player myself I thought I'd toss my two pennies in here.

For early game content, I think the difficulty is just about perfect. Perhaps a tad on the easy side, but not enough to warrant complaining about.

I am not a power-gamer, so it's not that I'm just awesome at video games (quite the opposite - I'm the guy your kids cuss out on XBox Live lol). I'm running a pure Dex Ranger, which I have never seen anyone accused of being an OP build. Now, I will grant you that I've only gone through the Korthos, Harbor, Marketplace, Catacombs, House P and a few House D quests, so keep that in mind. But so far I have been able to solo everything on Normal. Sometimes I die, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I bring a Hireling with me for heals, sometimes I don't. I try to run everything at-level but every now and again I peek a little above and run something 1-2 levels higher and I find these quests to require much more caution on my part. And sometimes (Kobold Assault and Irestone Inlet, I'm looking at you!) I have to wait until I'm a level higher and dip down for quests, but these are usually listed as 'Extreme Challenge' or at the very least 'Party' quests.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is: As a brand new player of average skill, the difficulty is just about what I would expect. But I've always been an 'endgame should be the destination, not the whole journey' kind of guy. Probably why I hated DCUO so much (well, one of the many reasons anyway) Kudos, Turbine!

[Vormaerin]

You have a quote from a dev admitting that is what has been happening.



That's not what MadFloyd said. He said "Perhaps there is some truth in that". Which means he's willing to entertain the idea that their idea of appropriate power for a quest has been skewed; its not an admission that they are doing that on purpose or as a matter of policy.

Again, your entire post is a long series of statements about how the game should be designed for hypoethetical "normal" characters without 1) any definition of what these "normal" characters are, or 2) any evidence that the game is not appropriate for them.

What about the undead in Sentinels you keep mentioning is so overwhelming? Why is bad to think characters doing a lvl 17 raid might have gear you get reliably from lvl 13 to 15 content? I play these first life, untwinked, limited or no raid gear characters all the time. They are more capable than you seem to think.

Again, I ask, what evidence is there that content is being made too hard for the CHARACTERS that can reasonably be made by a moderately competent player? Because you aren't going to convince me that a lvl 17 raid should be balanced to be easy for someone who's managed to get through 17 lvls without learning how to play. That's what casual quests are for.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I think a variance in difficulty between quests of the same level is just fine. Especially considering that experience, party makeup, player ability, and (yes) gear have as much, if not more, impact on how difficult a particular quest is than the quest itself.

That said, I think a bigger difference in difficulty between 17-20 quests and the easier epics isn't a bad idea either. If there's a plan to make more epic content, and the endgame shifts more towards that, then toning down some of the 17-20 content wouldn't hurt either.

Personally? I don't want a cakewalk, but this is what I do to unwind. I can't say most of the stuff I run all the time is too difficult, since it's so familiar. But when three forths of the LFMs up have "link X item" or "minimum HP" requirements, and they no longer seem unreasonable, the difficulty might need some tweaking.

[jkm]

Epic balance does need to be talked about hand in hand with class balance though. Currently some fun well balanced quests (eg Epic Chains of Flame) are actually paced well even with a good caster in the group, but once you get 2-3 decent casters in there we bend it over and make it call us ***** as we speed zerg. I dont want a return to the "casters only mass hold and buff" days though, so I'm not sure what can be done to fix the issue.

Epic quests aren't too easy, its that caster mechanics are assinine. Tell me how easy that quest would have been if the following things were true:

1. Quicken Feat didn't work while moving
2. Casting a spell while moving (including jumping) imposed a -100 concentration check
3. You can't cast for 5 seconds after you jump out of water

or how about:

Damage reduced by 90% when the spell is cast while moving AND all AoE persistent spells are removed if the caster moves.

One of the reasons that I feel the devs have no pulse on this game is the way they horribly overreact to any ranged dps and let casters get away with murder.

[Vormaerin]

One of the reasons that I feel the devs have no pulse on this game is the way they horribly overreact to any ranged dps and let casters get away with murder.

While I don't think the devs have no feel for the game, I do agree that the situation has changed enough in the last year or two to make this statement have some validity.

The availability of nearly limitless spell points, between pots and raid gear, has pretty much put well geared casters in the kite zone that everyone wanted to keep ranged characters out of.

However... its also true that a lot casters don't have that kind of gear and don't buy blue pots for day to day use. My lvl 18 raid gear free Air Savant can easily end up running on Echoes of Power if I'm not judicious in my spell usage since we run everything on hard or elite.

Even with that, I do smoke the two lvl 19 arcane archers in our guild (one fighter, the other ranger/rogue) for overall DPS even when I'm not using Wail/FoD to just kill things.

[Elaril]

Why does every thread on game difficulty always result in an 'I'm right..no I'm right...no I'm right' ****ing contest. People are entitled to their opinions, and people have different opinions. Everyone's opinion is based on their own experience, so in essence, everyone's opinion is acurate. There is no need to try to prove everyone who holds a contrary opinion to yours wrong, when you do you usually look like a fool.

[umeannothing]

Why does every thread on game difficulty always result in an 'I'm right..no I'm right...no I'm right' ****ing contest. People are entitled to their opinions, and people have different opinions. Everyone's opinion is based on their own experience, so in essence, everyone's opinion is acurate. There is no need to try to prove everyone who holds a contrary opinion to yours wrong, when you do you usually look like a fool.


Well said. Wish I could +1 you for this.

[jkm]

While I don't think the devs have no feel for the game, I do agree that the situation has changed enough in the last year or two to make this statement have some validity.

The availability of nearly limitless spell points, between pots and raid gear, has pretty much put well geared casters in the kite zone that everyone wanted to keep ranged characters out of.

I started playing right after mod 3 came out and casters kited then just as well. The only difference was we HAD to jump to not slow down.

[jkm]

Why does every thread on game difficulty always result in an 'I'm right..no I'm right...no I'm right' ****ing contest. People are entitled to their opinions, and people have different opinions. Everyone's opinion is based on their own experience, so in essence, everyone's opinion is acurate. There is no need to try to prove everyone who holds a contrary opinion to yours wrong, when you do you usually look like a fool.

A lot of this has to do with the open framework of the original post. If they collapsed it down with some taxonomy (like I showed in an earlier post) they could then formulate a player survey.

[hewimeddel]

I'm only soloing this game, cause playing in groups (or even raids) is not my thing. Besides, "Wayfinder" is not well enough populated to always get a group in my limited playtime.

Since Level 10 i have really problems with some quests, esp. in "Ruins of Threnal" there is a really hard level 10 quest where you have to protect someone - i can't do this even on casual with my level 12 paladin.

So i think, the game is getting a little bit to hard for me, but since i'm only level 12, maybe this will get better once i can continue. The Demon Sands, where i'm playing right now, seem to be very playable with my level and difficulty seems okay.

What bothers me more than the quest difficulty is the quest length, which seem to be much longer than in earlier levels with the same label - and additionaly there seem to be no more short or medium quests.
Since i normaly have only limited time per play-session this is a real problem for me.

bye
hewi

[ddohombre]

I'm with many that have posted before: I prefer to solo. My main gripe is the difficulty disparity within certain quests. There is nothing I hate more than spending an hour on a challenging quest, just to watch it jump off the scale in difficulty for the end fight. Enter the Kobold and Ghosts of Perdition come to mind.

Also, as others have said, the disparity in difficulty between same-leveled quests needs work.

IMHO, with proper scaling, I should be able to solo any at-level quest with a hired healer or pots. As it stands, I sometimes have trouble on certain quests if I'm over leveled. Mind you, this is at higher levels.

A final confounding thing: many quests are easier for me to solo than if my buddy jumps in with me. Two people shouldn't make the scales tip that much. I LIKE the concept of dungeon scaling, but it seems off kilter.

[Vormaerin]

I started playing right after mod 3 came out and casters kited then just as well. The only difference was we HAD to jump to not slow down.

but back then we kited through firewalls because if we did anything else, we'd run out of spell points pretty quick. The idea of casters doing sustained direct fire DPS was laughable. And the instakills were pretty weak, too. I think we had FoD by mod 3, but we didn't when the game came out. Lots of casters back then were using a ranged weapon regularly.

Anyway, its not kiting that's the problem per se. The argument is that melee needs to do a lot more DPS than ranged because the ranged don't get beat up as much, etc. Which is fine, as far as it goes. But now that casters are sustained ranged DPS (and not just criss cross the Firewall), its a very leaky argument.

The power of casters is predicated on limited supply of spell points. If there is no practical limit on my spell casting ability, then I shouldn't be doing as much DPS as the melees.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Also. Consider this.

For all the whining about 'easy button' and 'i want a challenge'. Those same people will do everything they can to have their easy button and remove any challenge at all by stacking the party and odds in their favor. Myddoing characters. denying anyone they feel might not be uber. Restrictive and elitest lfms. Expecting and demanding the best. Making fun of anyone who falls short.

And then come here telling everyone how easy everything is. You see it often here.

I'd pretty much ignore anyone who says remove the easy button and they want a challenge. They really don't.

What they say. And what they do. Have little relation to each other for most of the people here.



Why? Well thats a topic for the psychologists. Kinda beyond the scope of a game here.

This isn't univerally true, but it certainly is true to a very large extent.

Restrictive and elitest lfms are probably the single biggest problem in the game today.

Its certainly no big mystery as to why there is a persistent shortage of divine casters. A lot of people prefer to spend their time talking about how uber they are rather than actually doing the heavy lifting in this game.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Should divines get a tremendous boost to make them more enticing to play?

The basic laws of supply and demand clearly say "Yes".

The majority of players in this game consistently take the path of least resistance. For the most part, "more challenge" is all about forum bravado and not about actual game play.

If you doubt that, you simply don't understand the popularity of the Bravery Bonus.

This game has a glut of melee characters and a sparcity of divine casters. Its a lot easier to click your left mouse button to attack the mob directly in front of you than it is to keep a group of 6/12 toons alive. That is especially true in any kind of challenging content and/or if one or more of the players in the group is making less than optimal decisions.

Failing to make divine casters more appealing as a play option simply leads to more LFMs hanging with the text "need healer".

[GermanicusMaximus]

Introduce casual difficulty on raids.

A raid run on casual does not drop any raid loot, does not count as a completion, and does not have a lock-out timer.

The point of running a raid on casual is to have an environment in which you can learn the raid, and as a way for players to experience the story of the raid without having to split their focus so heavily with trying to stay alive and contribute.

For example, The Shroud on casual would drop no small, medium or large ingredients, no power cells, no shards or power and no horns, would not count toward completions for obtaining a Cleanser on a 20th list, and could be run as many times in a day as you choose. Damage and HP on the monsters therein would be much less. The blades would function as they do currently, but would do a pittance of the damage in other difficulties.

Agree. We need a casual mode on raids, and I consider this to be the perfect description of how it should be implemented.

[Angelus_dead]

This game has a glut of melee characters and a sparcity of divine casters. Its a lot easier to click your left mouse button to attack the mob directly in front of you than it is to keep a group of 6/12 toons alive.
That reasoning could be applicable only to the number of people playing healers, not the number playing divine casters.

A divine caster doesn't necessarily have any more obligation to go keep you alive than a ranger or monk does. To add power to Cleric and FVS on the theory that there aren't enough healers would be a massive miscalculation.

[ArcaneMelee]

...A divine caster doesn't necessarily have any more obligation to go keep you alive than a ranger or monk does...

Completely agree on this point - unfortunately, many of the people in the game and on the forums feel like that little white icon next to your name in the party list says otherwise. The FvS icon tends to blend in better...

Edit: I also agree that boosting their power (especially the clerics) would do nothing to address the problem, but I wouldn't object to my clerics getting domains or something nice.

[Vormaerin]

Well, given that GM has repeatedly indicated that he thinks the epitome of melee game play is hitting left click, its hardly surprising that he doesn't seem to grasp that divine casters are far more than healers.

Neither of those things is true and I bet he actually knows that, despite his assorted posts to the contrary.

[fn_Chopper]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

IMO ur missing the point.

When I hit level 11 (which takes no time at all) there's *nothing* to do. If I want to go to Gianthold, I need a party .. of which, there are rarely pugs. If I want to run the sands, I need a party .. of which there are rarely pugs. This is the case all the way to end game. If you don't have a group of people already setup to play with, then *there's nothing to do*.

It's not about making it 'easy' or 'difficult' it's about making the game *accessible*. If it's hard but soloable, people will find a way. If it's impossible to solo, it's a complete dead end.

This is because there are hundreds of people who can't find people to play with. Inexperienced players can't break the experience barrier ... ppl hate you for trying, even if you're actually a *good player* (which I'm not). The experienced players don't want to play with the inexperienced players, they want the 'easy' runs.. after which they troll the forums saying 'oh, that was too easy!'. It's not about the difficulty, it's just people getting bored.

Want to know how to stop ppl from getting bored? Don't make the game repetitive!

The OP is completely off target. So set on building the game a certain way that it misses the point entirely. If there were 10 times as many end game quests, then nobody would complain about difficulty. It's hard to believe that you'd waste time trying to induce involvement in the forums rather than actually building new content.

Here's a really (REALLY!) constructive suggestion. Open quest design to players. Have players design the content they want in the way they want it. Either that or finally go about creating something (anything) random. Like (for example) an explorer area where things spawned in random locations. A revolutionary idea, but not knowing what to expect provides a very simple challenge, will make people behave cautiously and reduces expectations of success. Which in itself is a measure of difficulty.

Good luck, but personally .. I think ur dooooomed.

[jkm]

but back then we kited through firewalls because if we did anything else, we'd run out of spell points pretty quick. The idea of casters doing sustained direct fire DPS was laughable. And the instakills were pretty weak, too. I think we had FoD by mod 3, but we didn't when the game came out. Lots of casters back then were using a ranged weapon regularly.

Anyway, its not kiting that's the problem per se. The argument is that melee needs to do a lot more DPS than ranged because the ranged don't get beat up as much, etc. Which is fine, as far as it goes. But now that casters are sustained ranged DPS (and not just criss cross the Firewall), its a very leaky argument.

The power of casters is predicated on limited supply of spell points. If there is no practical limit on my spell casting ability, then I shouldn't be doing as much DPS as the melees.

FoD was mod 4 which is where the balance for casters started to shift (mod 5 they dominated with firewall). In Mod 3 our only real instakill was PK which was a double save (so we used FtS on casters). Also in Mod 3 we tended to use firewall scrolls since an extended emp'd max'd firewall cost like 140 mana (out of 1200 or so for sorcs).

[Vormaerin]

FoD was mod 4 which is where the balance for casters started to shift (mod 5 they dominated with firewall). In Mod 3 our only real instakill was PK which was a double save (so we used FtS on casters). Also in Mod 3 we tended to use firewall scrolls since an extended emp'd max'd firewall cost like 140 mana (out of 1200 or so for sorcs).

Yeah, that sounds right. I never quite remember what came with which mod without looking it up. It was too long ago. But it does trigger my old fogey reactions when newcomers tell me how things have "always been that way" because they've been around for a year or two. Heh.

They've buffed ranged characters a bit recently, but its still nowhere near enough to compete with the other options in the game. Can make pretty solid mixed archer/melee builds now, at least. That's something.

[morticianjohn]

I feel the game difficulty is fine overall. I think that the biggest thing that needs to be looked at is balancing rewards for the effort involved. A good example of this is the XP rewards from amrath. Let's be honest even with the loot rewards these quests are only worth running for favor, and flagging (exception of weapons shipment for bauble).

The more challenging the content the better the reward needs to be IMHO. While this is the case for many things I think this could be done better.

[Aelgerion]

I feel the game difficulty is fine overall. I think that the biggest thing that needs to be looked at is balancing rewards for the effort involved. A good example of this is the XP rewards from amrath. Let's be honest even with the loot rewards these quests are only worth running for favor, and flagging (exception of weapons shipment for bauble).

The more challenging the content the better the reward needs to be IMHO. While this is the case for many things I think this could be done better.

I would totally echo these comments. My general sense is that the level of difficulty is just fine. The overall itemization and xp rewards for questing are not. As an example, quest difficulty goes way up after level 10 and again at 16. I need more xp at those levels (which is practically mmo canon) but I'm not getting any more xp for the time invested nor am I getting gear that helps me succeed at the new challenge level 95% or more of the time.

[Aelgerion]

IMO ur missing the point.

When I hit level 11 (which takes no time at all) there's *nothing* to do. If I want to go to Gianthold, I need a party .. of which, there are rarely pugs. If I want to run the sands, I need a party .. of which there are rarely pugs. This is the case all the way to end game. If you don't have a group of people already setup to play with, then *there's nothing to do*.

It's not about making it 'easy' or 'difficult' it's about making the game *accessible*. If it's hard but soloable, people will find a way. If it's impossible to solo, it's a complete dead end.

This is because there are hundreds of people who can't find people to play with. Inexperienced players can't break the experience barrier ... ppl hate you for trying, even if you're actually a *good player* (which I'm not). The experienced players don't want to play with the inexperienced players, they want the 'easy' runs.. after which they troll the forums saying 'oh, that was too easy!'. It's not about the difficulty, it's just people getting bored.

Want to know how to stop ppl from getting bored? Don't make the game repetitive!

The OP is completely off target. So set on building the game a certain way that it misses the point entirely. If there were 10 times as many end game quests, then nobody would complain about difficulty. It's hard to believe that you'd waste time trying to induce involvement in the forums rather than actually building new content.

Here's a really (REALLY!) constructive suggestion. Open quest design to players. Have players design the content they want in the way they want it. Either that or finally go about creating something (anything) random. Like (for example) an explorer area where things spawned in random locations. A revolutionary idea, but not knowing what to expect provides a very simple challenge, will make people behave cautiously and reduces expectations of success. Which in itself is a measure of difficulty.

Good luck, but personally .. I think ur dooooomed.


Minus the doom and gloom portion of this comment, I think this poster makes some good points. The game is inaccessible on normal to the casual player. That's a real problem when you have competition that does this really well out there.

[sephiroth1084]

The basic laws of supply and demand clearly say "Yes".

The majority of players in this game consistently take the path of least resistance. For the most part, "more challenge" is all about forum bravado and not about actual game play.

If you doubt that, you simply don't understand the popularity of the Bravery Bonus.

This game has a glut of melee characters and a sparcity of divine casters. Its a lot easier to click your left mouse button to attack the mob directly in front of you than it is to keep a group of 6/12 toons alive. That is especially true in any kind of challenging content and/or if one or more of the players in the group is making less than optimal decisions.

Failing to make divine casters more appealing as a play option simply leads to more LFMs hanging with the text "need healer".
What's going to make them more appealing to play? I can say that for myself and I'm sure others, the barrier to playing one of these has nothing to do with the strengths or weaknesses of the classes involved, but with the role of party healer. Some of the least fun I've had in DDO has been when, as a wizard, I've had to babysit a WF tank through this raid or that one. I'll do it when I have to, because I'm a team player, but I'm not thrilled with the prospect of having to do that on a regular basis. So, my two attempts at rolling a cleric have stalled at around level 7.

Now, that isn't the case for everyone, but what could be done to entice people to play a healer? Making divines more interesting in the early levels would help, but I don't think that that is ultimately going to get more people to play healers throughout the game/levels.

[Silverleafeon]

If difficulty of the game is a major concern, then I would like to discuss the future of endgame.

I have in the past been a fan of adding epic levels to DDO. However pondering the consequences gives me pause in my enthusiasm. Many play by post pen and paper D&D campaigns do not survive the demands of epic levels.

What would happen to the overall difficulty levels of raids and endgame content if epic levels were added?

Hmm…me thinks upping the level cap to 25 would start the perception that all raids are too easy, thereby bringing pressure to change the raids to be even more difficult. Also this would destroy the possibility of gaining level 18 then using all the raid to procure enough xp to cap one’s character over a period of weeks.

New content would also have to created just for this new group of characters.


But if the decision was made to not create epic levels what options should be offered to those who had reached level 20?

Balancing out the epic gear presently available, adding more epic quests and raids perhaps (epic shroud anyone?)

Beyond that, somewhere down the road, one needs more, and too that end, True Resurrection has already been added to the game. But if this is to be the path to greatness, then True Resurrection does need to be carefully reviewed.

The first thing to work on would be making sure that tomes (especially +3 and +4 tomes) are not lost during the True Resurrection process. This would free many a veteran player to follow this path.

The second thing would be to review all the past life feats carefully, both active and passive seeking out balance and harmony.

The third thing would be to carefully consider reclassifying past life feats into past class life feats and create racial past life feats (possibly even offering a racial completionist feat for those characters who have played every race at least once.) These racial past life feats might only be passive and only stack once? (The completionist feat could be renamed class completionist feat.)

The fourth thing to carefully consider is redoing the character creation machine for players having 3 or more past lives. Consider these offhand examples and work from there:

Example #1:
On a character’s fourth life = receive 5 bonus skill points at level one.
On a character’s fifth life = receive 5 bonus hit points and 5 bonus spell points at level one.
On a character’s sixth life = receive 1 bonus action point at level one.
On a character’s seventh life = receive a bonus feat (possibly taken from a selected list such as active past life feats, fighter bonus feats, wizard bonus feats, etc…) at level one.
On a character’s eight life = gain the 37 point build.
On a character’s ninth life = repeat this cycle.

Example #2
On a character’s fifth life, fifteenth life, twenty fifth life etc.. = receive a bonus feat (possibly from a selected list) at first or even a higher level.
On a character’s tenth life, twentieth life, etc… = receive a higher point build such as 38, 40, 42...
On any other life not listed above = gain +2 hit points, +2 spell points, +1 action point at first level.


The fifth thing to consider is continuing onward with new prestige classes, new races, and new classes.



As to the current difficulty to the game, it would be nice to see some xp even if one failed. Perhaps something along these lines:

Optional ~~ explore the entire dungeon and gain 8% of the quest in xp.
Optional ~~ smash every breakable and gain 8% of the quest in xp.
Optional ~~ disarm every trap and gain 8% of the quest in xp.

This rewards those who wish to stop and smell the flowers which most newcomers like to do in order to enjoy the grandeur of the game. It also gives a bit more xp for TR characters as well.


Of course if one did shuttle future advancement into True Resurrection, one would pause and look at the xp required to level a character up. Some might consider reducing that, but most who are familiar with leveling up a TR character would prefer big effort = nice rewards.


Thank you for the genius of bravery bonus!
Well done there.
It has certainly upped the difficulty of the game in a good way.

[Hughgrim]

I don't mind failing. If I won every time, snore. My question is, why am I failing?

If I fail because the boss is too tough, so be it. I'll go away, get stronger and smarter, and come back to it. Whisperdoom is an example of this. If, however, I fail because of meta-gaming from the devs, I will grow frustrated.

Metagaming, on the part of the devs at least, means setting things up to occur outside the context of the rules or of expected reality. An example is the kobold ambushes in the waterworks and other places, or the Tieflings that pop up right in front of you as you are finding the Altar of the Sky in A Small Problem. One could have a spot skill of 1000 and not see these ambushes coming; one could defeat the Tiefling ambush a dozen times and have to fight through it one more time because it respawns - something that does not occur in reality.

The newer a quest, the less likely it is to include metagaming. Newer stuff is increasingly realistic. Nice job. Now when will you go back and scrub the older quests of the content that relegates the game to video-game status and instead elevate it to D&D status?

[GermanicusMaximus]

Undead do suck for rogues and they aren't really great for anyone else, for that matter.

Undead are actually a lot of fun for my radiant servant cleric. Yeah, he's actually more than a healbot, and not all content in the game needs to be designed with melee toons in mind.

[ArcaneMelee]

FoD was mod 4 which is where the balance for casters started to shift (mod 5 they dominated with firewall). In Mod 3 our only real instakill was PK which was a double save (so we used FtS on casters). Also in Mod 3 we tended to use firewall scrolls since an extended emp'd max'd firewall cost like 140 mana (out of 1200 or so for sorcs).

I seem to recall that PK was only requiring a single save (can't remember if it was Will or Fortitude) for quite a while, before it was fixed to properly apply both.

[redraider]

In answer to the original question - Is DDO too hard right now: yes and no.

It is too easy 1-20 for TR's although the new elite bravery bonus thing has been one of the best changes to the game in a long time. There are now lots of groups doing normal, and lots doing elite.

There are certain really tough quests at lvl (In the Flesh has been mentioned repeatedly) which I hope you don't mess with. There should be a smattering of really tough quests throughout the levels. You certainly don't need to do In the Flesh at level unless you REALLY want to.

As a guy who Tr's frequently, I spend a good deal of time at the lower levels and love to PUG elite bravery groups. Elite is too tough for some players at level, but then it should be. They have 4 settings they can run. I love the choices available.

I guess what I am saying is that DDO Devs, you have it right with the 1-20 non-raid current mix. Quit tweaking for a while. Let it settle for six months and then ask us again.

Now on the raids - someone early said they are a bit schizophrenic - and that is certainly true. The new Cannith stuff is fine. Von, ToD, and Reaver are fine as is on all settings. Love the new egg thing in Von on epic.

DQ is fine N-E, but Epic is now silly and needs to be toned down a bit.

Shroud is mostly fine. Maybe drop 30% off the blade damage in pt 4 on norm, but otherwise I wouldn't change anything on H or E.

Abbot is just f'd up now and needs a serious fix.

Titan - Titan needs to be totally revamped. Dang near no one runs it. If I was in charge of the devs, I would completely change the Restless Isles loot mechanic to an upgradeable style with some new loot drops in Ghola and Slavers - give us a reason to run it. We all currently ignore what used to be a really cool part of the game.

Final comment that I think most of us agree with: Quit tweaking and tinkering for a while and just add content (lvl 12-19 especially) and finish the PRE's already!

[sweez]

One could have a spot skill of 1000 and not see these ambushes coming; one could defeat the Tiefling ambush a dozen times and have to fight through it one more time because it respawns - something that does not occur in reality.

I'm pretty sure tieflings, as such, don't occur in reality. Could be wrong tho.


Now when will you go back and scrub the older quests of the content that relegates the game to video-game status and instead elevate it to D&D status?

I'd wager that most people that play DDO expect to play a video-game, and most people that expect to play p&p, well, play p&p. Again, could be wrong.

[GermanicusMaximus]

If by danger you mean appropriate challenge for new players with gear that is reasonably obtained by the time they get to those levels then I agree.

The question would by why is there a need for those hit points in later levels. If those levels were to be balanced for reasonable equipment for uber players and not for regular players then the issue would be the content and not the gear or expectations.

At some point someone has to sit down and benchmark what is reasonable for a new player to obtain on a first life.


I agree, without some kind of benchmark for gear expectation by level, its difficult to make assertions about whether quests/raids are too difficult for new players.

I also believe that there should be an increasingly small room for error in quests as the level increases. Level 1 normal quests should be able to be completed by new players who have mastered basic game play unless they make some egregious errors. The entry level experience should not be punitive.

By level 16, new players should be able to complete on normal, but the margin for error should be substantially reduced. This is in preparation for level 17, when the world changes...

Enter Shroud, the gateway to end game, and the point where new players have the opportunity to mix with level 20 toons on a consistent basis. Lord of Blades normal is only 3 levels away.

At this point, at least raids (if not quests) should have normal difficulty start to take into account both level 20s and new players at level. New players should be able to get into these raids and reasonably be expected to make a meaningful contribution, but the reality of how this game is played is that seldom are there groups composed entirely of toons at level in these raids.

The gear required to make a meaningful contribution in Shroud should not be something exotic, by it shouldn't be trivial either.

No green steel obviously, no epic items, nothing pulled from Amrath.

Certainly a +6 Constitution item, heavy fortification, striders (need to run away from the blades). A melee toon needs a DR breaker, and probably should have either a Greater False Life item or a Toughness item (e.g. Minos helm).

Are all of these guaranteed to drop from a chest in a random sprint from Korthos to Shroud? No. Welcome to the gear grind. Shroud is all about grinding for green steel ingredients. Most of the quests/raids after Shroud are about grinding for gear. If not for that, in 3 levels you would be done and have nothing to do.

[jkm]

Titan - Titan needs to be totally revamped. Dang near no one runs it. If I was in charge of the devs, I would completely change the Restless Isles loot mechanic to an upgradeable style with some new loot drops in Ghola and Slavers - give us a reason to run it. We all currently ignore what used to be a really cool part of the game.

We run this every TR life. I do wish they'd get rid fo the stupid mario bridges though.

[GermanicusMaximus]

That reasoning could be applicable only to the number of people playing healers, not the number playing divine casters.

A divine caster doesn't necessarily have any more obligation to go keep you alive than a ranger or monk does. To add power to Cleric and FVS on the theory that there aren't enough healers would be a massive miscalculation.

Who do you group with? In the groups I play in, people do expect the FvS or cleric to keep them alive. Those classes certainly have the latitude to do other things as well, but I have never been in a group where there was a wipe and people decided they died because the ranger/monk failed to heal them.

People in this game simply want divine casters to only be healbots, and any mention of giving them additional capabilities is viewed as a problem because divine casters might become something MORE than healbots. I guess free nannying services are a hard thing to give up.

The current game is based upon a melee mentality. The number of LFMs hanging with one spot open with the text "need healer", even with the advent of cleric hirelings, shows the complete failure of that mentality.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Well, given that GM has repeatedly indicated that he thinks the epitome of melee game play is hitting left click, its hardly surprising that he doesn't seem to grasp that divine casters are far more than healers.

Neither of those things is true and I bet he actually knows that, despite his assorted posts to the contrary.

Actually, my main toon is a cleric, so I am well aware of the capabilities of a divine caster. He's not a healbot, but I certainly meet a fair number of people in this game who wish that's all he was.

I have also played melee toons, so while I wouldn't categorize hitting left click as the epitome of melee play, I would say that it is probably the maximum skill level achieved by around 70% of the non-monk, non-tank melee toons in this game. A sad number of melee that I see can't even properly execute a simple "tank and spank".

[Ungood]

Actually, my main toon is a cleric, so I am well aware of the capabilities of a divine caster. He's not a healbot, but I certainly meet a fair number of people in this game who wish that's all he was.

Ouch.

Not telling you how to play, but, Man, maybe it is time to revisit the build you are using if people wish you were just a heal-bot. Just saying.

[Ungood]

To add power to Cleric and FVS on the theory that there aren't enough healers would be a massive miscalculation.

This is a very good point. It is not that their is a shortage of healers or divine players, my wife and I both have capped Divine Characters. It is the fact that we don't want to break out our clerics just to have 11 other people give us grief for keeping them alive.

Honestly, the last thing a Divine Build needs at this point is "More power" to be enticing, because that is not why others are waiting on them, in fact I think boosting the power of the Divine classes right now would have a negative effect, as Divine casters can solo most content, and thus do not need to group, ergo leaving groups that may be looking for a "healer" clean out of luck until it becomes time to raid.

The problem of healers not joining groups because they have the power and ability to easily solo most content has auxiliary effect on the rest of the game, IE: Due to a lack of being able to find divines to join groups, players who want to play Melee Toons, are forced to either turn to hires or builds that are far more self sufficient.

The former makes the Melee toon dependent on Heal-Bots, the Later makes Divines insignificant to the party formulation.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

I personally feel that as far as this goes, there are right now, a sold number of PRE's left undone, as well as Racial PRE's that could be added in to balance the game out better overall. I would like to see these avenues taken with the spirit to complete the game, as opposed to trying to balance the game step by step. Yes, I am aware that each update, XYZ class get "OMG OPed" while ABC Class will be "OMG Nerf!" but that is what will happen, with the hope that in the long run, it will all even out.

[jkm]

The problem of healers not joining groups because they have the power and ability to easily solo most content has auxiliary effect on the rest of the game, IE: Due to a lack of being able to find divines to join groups, players who want to play Melee Toons, are forced to either turn to hires or builds that are far more self sufficient.

The former makes the Melee toon dependent on Heal-Bots, the Later makes Divines insignificant to the party formulation.

Just some thoughts to ponder.


This is a totally different thread, but the problem is that thus far the only way the devs can make content "harder" is by putting the burden on the healer. I have an offensive caster that spends more of my blue bar on keeping the party up in epics than actually having fun and casting. I'm a team player so I do it, most of the time.

Some examples:

Frenzied Berserker vicious damage - ***? So I have to heal this guy more because that way he does more damage? If a barb wants to kill themselves I'm okay with it, but seriously bar them from receiving incoming healing when they kick this on. They chug 80 pots and maybe they'll think twice about using the stupid thing.

Twisted Talisman - actually had a caster ask me to throw a heal scroll on him after he used it. I was like "they have pots for that".

Upping incoming damage and making AC nearly useless - Once again, the burden of this is on the healer not the person taking the damage. At some point they need to take a step back and penalize the player taking the damage, not the person in the group who can heal the damage.

[Calebro]

Who do you group with? In the groups I play in, people do expect the FvS or cleric to keep them alive. Those classes certainly have the latitude to do other things as well, but I have never been in a group where there was a wipe and people decided they died because the ranger/monk failed to heal them.

People in this game simply want divine casters to only be healbots, and any mention of giving them additional capabilities is viewed as a problem because divine casters might become something MORE than healbots. I guess free nannying services are a hard thing to give up.

The current game is based upon a melee mentality. The number of LFMs hanging with one spot open with the text "need healer", even with the advent of cleric hirelings, shows the complete failure of that mentality.

The problem with your line of reasoning here is that you obviously come from another MMO that favors the sacred trinity.
DDO is not such a game. There are extremely few quests that actually require a dedicated healer in this game as long as you play intelligently.

What AD was saying was just because a cleric or a favored soul has the ability to keep you alive does not mean that they are obligated to do so. If you play smart, you can keep yourself alive. The divine casters know this, and expect some effort on your part.
The fact that many quests which would in many players' eyes "require a healer" have been solo'd by pure melee classes proves this point beyond doubt. If a pure barbarian can solo elite Sins sans hireling, then why are groups constantly searching for a dedicated healer?

Let's look at the classes, shall we?
Favored Souls and Clerics can heal.
Bards and Artificers can heal and have UMD.
Sorcs are Cha based, so it's easy to get UMD up, or you can just be a WF.
Wizards have tons of skill points, so it's easy to get UMD, or you can be a PM or a WF.
Paladins have LoH, need a decent Cha (for UMD), and have Cures.
Rangers have Cures and have plenty of skill points for UMD.
Monks have WoB and light Monks have FoL.
Rogues have UMD.
Fighters and Barbarians are the only ones with any issues self healing, and they can and have solo'd some of the tough content which you would claim "need" a dedicated healer. So if the two of them can keep themselves alive in tough content, anyone can.

Take a moment and think about what you just said:
"I have never been in a group where there was a wipe and people decided they died because the ranger/monk failed to heal them."
Now take responsibility for your own actions and make some attempt to keep yourself alive. If you die, 99% of the time it's not the healer's fault. 99% of the time it's your own fault.

[GermanicusMaximus]

What's going to make them more appealing to play? I can say that for myself and I'm sure others, the barrier to playing one of these has nothing to do with the strengths or weaknesses of the classes involved, but with the role of party healer. Some of the least fun I've had in DDO has been when, as a wizard, I've had to babysit a WF tank through this raid or that one. I'll do it when I have to, because I'm a team player, but I'm not thrilled with the prospect of having to do that on a regular basis. So, my two attempts at rolling a cleric have stalled at around level 7.

Now, that isn't the case for everyone, but what could be done to entice people to play a healer? Making divines more interesting in the early levels would help, but I don't think that that is ultimately going to get more people to play healers throughout the game/levels.

That's an excellent question.

To some extent, the willingness to play a divine caster in this game does come down to personality type. Multiple facets come into play:

1) Gaining pleasure from the overall success of the group rather than the micro battle going on directly in front of you. Yes, everyone in a group contributes to its success, but as a divine there are times you step back from the micro battle in front of you to enable everyone else to succeed in THEIR micro battles. It seems that a lot of people in this game simply don't find that aspect of the game enjoyable.

2) A strong but flexible personallity. In any challenging content in this game, the group is often just a few seconds from a wipe at any point in time. Consider Shroud part 4 before the changes. A misclick from the divine and you drop all the melee in the penalty box. Misclicks will happen if you play long enough, and more than a few people in this game will quickly and profanely give you feedback about it.

At other times, you will get feedback about how to play something that is actually useful. Its important to be able to shake off the useless feedback while being open to the useful feedback.

3) The willingness to set limits. I PUG my cleric extensively, and I used to often run Shroud with someone who always killed the last mini-boss in part 5 as quickly as possible, no matter how marginal the group was or how many spell points were expended to get to that point. He would then get on his mic and start screaming "Drink pots! Drink pots!" While an extreme example, divine casters see similar circumstances far too often.

A long preamble, but in short the divine caster experience in this game is such that a substantial portion of the player base is never going to take that role for any length of time. Anyone who will needs to receive the proper encouragement to do so.

The low level divine experience in this game is horrendous. There is an entire forum thread dedicated to it.

Where is the divine specific gear in this game? For the most part, the best divine gear is the arcane gear.

I have seen threads that attempt to address this topic by giving divines bonus XP or bonus loot just for being divines. In my opinion, that seems inconsistent with the overall game design and is a bad idea.

Something that is consistent with the overall game design and would be helpful would be to simply give the divine classes an extra feat. That would be a meaningful boost, while at the same time giving everyone playing a divine a chance to determine for themselves what would keep them interested in playing those classes. Most people I know who play divines like playing divines, they don't like being slotted into a nannybot/healbot role. An additional feat would give players more options to roll a well rounded divine caster.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Ouch.

Not telling you how to play, but, Man, maybe it is time to revisit the build you are using if people wish you were just a heal-bot. Just saying.

My toon has over 60 epic raid tokens at the moment (there would be more but I actually spend some of them

[Vormaerin]

Undead are actually a lot of fun for my radiant servant cleric. Yeah, he's actually more than a healbot, and not all content in the game needs to be designed with melee toons in mind.

Not sure why you think that comment is relevant to my post. Presumably you weren't following the conversation, because my point was that undead are not an inappropriate challenge, even if they tend to negate significant abilities of almost every class.

The general point of your comment is pretty amusing, too. Just what content in the game is "designed with melee toons in mind?"

It seems to me that, based on your comments in these threads, that you play with a lot of bad players and then transfer the bitterness that engenders to the game system itself. "I don't use my abilities fully, save me!" does not mean "fighters suck".

There are quite a lot of bad divine and arcane casters out there, too.

[Ungood]

This is a totally different thread, but the problem is that thus far the only way the devs can make content "harder" is by putting the burden on the healer. I have an offensive caster that spends more of my blue bar on keeping the party up in epics than actually having fun and casting. I'm a team player so I do it, most of the time.

Some examples:

Frenzied Berserker vicious damage - ***? So I have to heal this guy more because that way he does more damage? If a barb wants to kill themselves I'm okay with it, but seriously bar them from receiving incoming healing when they kick this on. They chug 80 pots and maybe they'll think twice about using the stupid thing.

Well I do not play a barb, so I am not sure on the mechanic, but you would think of a Barb was blitzed out of their mind in a middle of a combat frenzy they would get a Vamperic/Life shield kind of effect, till the rage wears off. That whole "Fueled off battle" kinda of deal.

Maybe some revising of those PRE's might be in order as well to balance them out to be more group dynamic friendly as opposed to everything being a heal fest.


Twisted Talisman - actually had a caster ask me to throw a heal scroll on him after he used it. I was like "they have pots for that".

Upping incoming damage and making AC nearly useless - Once again, the burden of this is on the healer not the person taking the damage. At some point they need to take a step back and penalize the player taking the damage, not the person in the group who can heal the damage.

All Good Points.

As far as AC goes, I would settle for just having Armor Styles play a role in Damage Mitigation, in the form of Heavy Armor offers 33%, Medium 22% Light 11% and Cloth 1% As well as adding in Combat feats for melee classes that can amp these up, perhaps just for heavy and medium armors.

I would also like to see the "Heal Skill" and "Repair Skill" go away, and just have a Rest Shrine restore all HP and SP. That would make things a little easier on the healer.

But yah. I see what you mean. It is an attrition game of the Mobs HP vs the Divines Spell Points. And to be honest, that is not a great means of fun.

[Vormaerin]

Well I do not play a barb, so I am not sure on the mechanic, but you would think of a Barb was blitzed out of their mind in a middle of a combat frenzy they would get a Vamperic/Life shield kind of effect, till the rage wears off.

The point of vicious is that, properly used, you kill the mobs significantly faster and, therefore, come out ahead. Because, in general, the mobs will hit you harder than your vicious does. So mobs dead sooner = less healing needed.

[Ungood]

The point of vicious is that, properly used, you kill the mobs significantly faster and, therefore, come out ahead. Because, in general, the mobs will hit you harder than your vicious does. So mobs dead sooner = less healing needed.

Well. this again, does little but to return to the question of what makes playing a Divine Enticing. And to be honest, Divines do not need any more abilities to make them fun. They are Already a Blast to play.

Divine builds are dynamic, powerful, and highly versatile, they can be mixed with great success. They are fun to play.

Personally, I love playing my Clonk, (18/2, Cleric/Monk) what I don't like is dealing with people who feel that I am their slave.

I don't like the idea that someone is going to fuss at me when they get themselves killed because I was not following them around like a hire healing them. And at the end of the day, there is nothing Turbine is going to do to the Divine Class to fix that problem.

Thus, the only answer lies in beefing up (Revamp perhaps) the melee classes to be less dependent upon the Divine classes, I honestly believe that is the only way to fix the problem of players not wanting to play "Healers"

[GermanicusMaximus]

LMAO, let me help you out here.


The problem with your line of reasoning here is that you obviously come from another MMO that favors the sacred trinity.


This is the second MMO I have ever played, and no, the prior one didn't have a trinity, sacred or otherwise. It was a strategy game involving entire armies, not individual toons.



Bards and Artificers can heal and have UMD.
Sorcs are Cha based, so it's easy to get UMD up, or you can just be a WF.
Wizards have tons of skill points, so it's easy to get UMD, or you can be a PM or a WF.
Paladins have LoH, need a decent Cha (for UMD), and have Cures.
Rangers have Cures and have plenty of skill points for UMD.
Monks have WoB and light Monks have FoL.
Rogues have UMD.
Fighters and Barbarians are the only ones with any issues self healing, and they can and have solo'd some of the tough content which you would claim "need" a dedicated healer. So if the two of them can keep themselves alive in tough content, anyone can.


The game mechanics quite clearly do allow for all the things that you mention, and players SHOULD be taking advantage of them. In fact, a fairly low percentage of non-casters do, and it appears the trend for non-casters is in fact downward.

We will soon embark on a discussion on class balance, where no doubt melee toons will complain about not being as powerful as casters, who in fact are powerful because they make investments in self healing. It should be an entertaining discussion.



Take a moment and think about what you just said:
"I have never been in a group where there was a wipe and people decided they died because the ranger/monk failed to heal them."
Now take responsibility for your own actions and make some attempt to keep yourself alive. If you die, 99% of the time it's not the healer's fault. 99% of the time it's your own fault.

My main toon is a cleric, which I play well over 95% of the time. The quote you have included is based upon my experience playing that cleric. I do appreciate your attempt at helping me, however. :D

[Kasiddy]

/delurk


What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?
Inconsistency, though after some experience this isn't so much an issue, I think. It may make for some nasty surprises for new players.

But I am still miffed that my pre-U11 monk who used to work fine in epics is now considered gimp by a great deal of the community. This is not entirely a developer issue... but not entirely a playerbase issue either. (HP + Fort + more damage) might make a quest more challenging by some definitions, but this hardly equates to more fun, especially at the expense of resources. There also seems to be a growing expectation that casters are supposed to be chugging sp pots on normal, even in quests. I really don't expect normal runs to cost pots even in raids or a well-coordinated epic.



What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?
For a lot of us, especially if we've been around a while, there are two things to get from play: rewards for overcoming some challenge we set for ourselves, and/or socialization and recreation.

Rewards are kind of obvious, I think, whether in-game loot items or personal satisfaction.

Socialization and Recreation Examples:
* Rolling dice for the Reaver tank then setting up disco balls and using /dance emotes while cracking jokes over in the corner in reaver, waiting for elementals to spawn.
* Naked Dragon/Drunken Dragon/some combination of the two.
* General goofing off in shroud or on the platform at quest entrance, with multiple back-to-back runs. (That's right, complete but don't finish - because it takes an awful lot of chests to get enough larges for a double-shard Tier 3... and new loot mechanics don't really change this, and it seems like there are fewer shrouds now.)
* Rolling dice for mind-flayer tank duties in Titan pre-raid (we can still do this).
* Dashing through DQ with whoever/whatever, especially newbies, just for a fast, fun completion. (can still sorta do this.)

I am aware that "inconsistency" makes some of the examples possible. I guess do whatever you want with hard and elite difficulty, but some recent changes really make me wonder if you understand the part of your playerbase who value the social rewards they get from casual (not necessarily meaning difficulty) play.


I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

After half a dozen TRs, as many GS items, and whatever raid loot you want (except maybe that torc that never drops...) and some +3 tomes.... well, yeah, maybe things *should* be easy-ish. Or maybe a very few high level epics just became accessible. I don't have a problem with "easy epics." I don't have problems with extreme challenges either and see no reason why there can't be both. (Provided the challenges aren't stand around and whittle down the uber hp and heavy fort boss fights. Oh, and respawns/kiting challenges. I hate respawns and kiting.)

I think as a general rule, a reasonably-built 28-point character should be able to cap, craft some GS, and run some epic content (not necessarily all epic content), including a raid or two. I nominate VON, DQ, and *maybe* Chrono, as entry epic raids because they have decent loot and are lower level to start with. Ramp up House C all you want. I would even dare say that "reasonably-built" would include the final stats and feats (though not necessarily enhancements) you get after completing a pre-built path. Otherwise you are completely screwing over new players who don't know any better. They are, after all, following a developer's suggestion, and after putting effort and time into their MMO character they should expect to get progress/reward out of it... not get to level 14 or 18 and discover they are gimp.

Finally, I'd like to mention game refinement, as this thread comes close to that and I'm not sure if there will be a thread specifically about that... and it does have to do with game play, or at least enjoyment, frustration, and disappointment while playing.

DDO is not refined.
*There are floating trees in the Red Fens that nobody has bothered to plant properly. (Really, the only floating trees that make any sense at all are in House J...)
*Shroud collectibles have never worked.
*Necro 1 flagging issues.
*The "I hit the bottom of the ladder and climb up 3 feet then hit the bottom of the ladder and climb up 3 feet then hit the bottom of the ladder and climb up 3 feet..." bug. (Surely I'm not the only one?)
*Lag.
*More lag.
*Insert amusing/frustrating shroud anecdotes concerning lag here.
*Certain recent exploits that have become semi-well-known but which I still must not mention.
*Handwraps
*Ancient loot tables (Threnal, anyone?)
*Awkward flagging dialogue or glitches in quest chains. (Threnal, anyone? or maybe Deleras?)
*Can you still lose your GS in Abbot? I don't mess with Abbot....
*How long have some of those "Known Issues" been on the "Known Issues" list anyway?
*Etc.

While I applaud your efforts to introduce new content and refine game play... my VIP dollars would be very happy to see your entire 2012 update cycle pushed back an update or three and instead have those months spent fixing existing issues in the game and making sure the new content does not introduce new issues to an already too-long list. Oh, and do something with Threnal. Dave deserves better.

/relurk

[Ungood]

Note: All the Class with UMD is a cross Class skill, they can only get to a 11 Base, which is not enough to get any real use out of it, perhaps bypassing Race Required, but that is pretty much it. Just want to clear that up. However, if you get the faction for SP pots, self healing at the Higher levels becomes more viable. IF you get the favor that is. So. Among your List Calebro, many of them will not be able to get the UMD they want or need even if they have the skill points to play with.


Take a moment and think about what you just said:
"I have never been in a group where there was a wipe and people decided they died because the ranger/monk failed to heal them."
Now take responsibility for your own actions and make some attempt to keep yourself alive. If you die, 99% of the time it's not the healer's fault. 99% of the time it's your own fault.

True this!

But I would like to see the Melee classes be given more options for Self healing, as UMD the skill is not enough in it's own right.

[mystafyi]

most divines can solo a quest easier then having a full group. Sadly the biggest problem is dungeon scaling and this wont be changed.

[mystafyi]

Note: All the Class with UMD is a cross Class skill, they can only get to a 11 Base, which is not enough to get any real use out of it, perhaps bypassing Race Required, but that is pretty much it.

my pure wiz can no fail heal scrolls while buffed. and I dumped cha. just saying.....

[GermanicusMaximus]

The general point of your comment is pretty amusing, too. Just what content in the game is "designed with melee toons in mind?"


Actually, most of the game is designed with melee in mind, aside from the Necro packs. That's fairly evident whenever something pops up in the game that DOESN'T have melee in mind. Crystal Cove and Mabar spring to mind immediately. The amount of complaining that goes on in the forums is amazing. Usually, it follows the line of "my toon can't do this, this is just ^*&* game design". Of course, melee toons can do this content, its just not optimized around their strengths.

Do I need to even mention the changes to Shroud where epic geared melee got shredded because they insisted on standing in the blades, and then jumped onto the forums and proclaimed Shroud normal to be "impossible"?



It seems to me that, based on your comments in these threads, that you play with a lot of bad players and then transfer the bitterness that engenders to the game system itself. "I don't use my abilities fully, save me!" does not mean "fighters suck".


Actually, I PUG fairly extensively. At the lower end of the spectrum, whenever I am off timer I'm always willing to drop down to Reaver's elite and help some lower level toons get a completion. At the upper end of the spectrum, I run the standard high end raids (ToD, MA, LoB, eVon6, eChrono,eADQ).

I get to see a fairly wide slice of the player spectrum, both in terms of toon level and player skill. That doesn't leave me embittered (if it did, I would simply adjust how I play or quit playing altogether), but it does give me some empirical data that allows me to make fact based observations about how the game operates.

The quotes you have tried to attribute to me are not anything I remember saying. They appear to be something you fabricated.

Frankly, you are the one who seems to be getting a tad emotional here.



There are quite a lot of bad divine and arcane casters out there, too.

If you look at the standard Shroud party pre-Update 12 (its a bit early to determine whether its changed), it was 1-2 divines, 1-2 arcanes, and the rest melee. Bad arcane and divine casters quickly become marginalized simply because

1) there are not enough slots for them.
2) bad arcane and divine play leads to party wipes

They either become bank toons, are rerolled, or deleted.

There is ample room for less than stellar melee toons in groups.

[Vormaerin]

they can only get to a 11 Base, which is not enough to get any real use out of it, perhaps bypassing Race Required, but that is pretty much it.Just want to clear that up. However, if you get the faction for SP pots, self healing at the Higher levels becomes more viable. IF you get the favor that is. So.

Among your Lost Calebro, many of them will not be able to get the UMD they want or need even if they have the skill points to play with.



Except that there are all kinds of bonuses to that. Persuasion for +3, Heroism & Greater Heroism, Luck items/spells, Deneith skill potions, one's Cha score, etc.

Plus, most of the classes mentioned have curing ability of their own. Paladins & Rangers have notable self healing, if they bother to develop it, even without UMD. Sorcerers who can't repair themselves have very high Cha bonuses to strengthen their UMD.

[Calebro]

Note: All the Class with UMD is a cross Class skill, they can only get to a 11 Base, which is not enough to get any real use out of it, perhaps bypassing Race Required, but that is pretty much it. Just want to clear that up. However, if you get the faction for SP pots, self healing at the Higher levels becomes more viable. IF you get the favor that is. So. Among your Lost Calebro, many of them will not be able to get the UMD they want or need even if they have the skill points to play with.

That's a common misconception.

Any class, regardless of Cha as a primary or even secondary stat can attain semi-useful UMD with a little effort.

8 base +2 tome = 10 / 0 mod

11 ranks
5 (or 6) GS cha skills
3 (or 5) competence from Cartouche (or 7 fingered gloves), etc
3 enhancement from epic spyglass or big top, etc
3 Cha +6 item
4 GH scroll (yes, you have enough to get a GH scroll off, just not 100% yet)
2 luck HoGF
----------------
31 (or 34), and that's without a ton of work on building it up.

That's a 60% chance on Heal scrolls (or 75% in some cases) for someone with a 10 Cha with UMD as a cross class skill.
For classes that have any sort of Cha requirements, it gets even easier. So Sorcs and Pallys have it quite easy if they choose to. And as I said, you could just be a WF Sorc or use LoH and Cures as a Pally to supplement.
Wizards and Rangers have it a little harder on UMD than Sorcs and Pallys, but they also have other ways to heal themselves via PM or WF for Wiz and Cures for Rangers. Monks have WoB and sometimes FoL, as I said.
If you have a Bard in the group it's even easier.

UMD as a cross class skill is absolutely not relegated to using RR items. It just takes a little more work to get past that point.

Every single class in DDO has the ability to be self sufficient if built for it. Even Barbarians and Fighters, although they admittedly have a much harder time with it than other classes.

[jkm]

my pure wiz can no fail heal scrolls while buffed. and I dumped cha. just saying.....

Yes, but heal scrolls have this nasty little thing called a concentration check. While your arcane put points into it, the melee classes above didn't. That means that heal scrolls are useless if there are still mobs swinging at you since you'll pretty much auto-fail them.

I'm also going to point out there is a significant portion of the player base that is downright nasty about divines that don't use their blue bar to heal them. I've been in multiple raids/quests where people would start yelling at you about not healing them. Going so far as to purposely die or sabotage the raid because they threw such a hissy fit about it.

Heck Cal, haven't you noticed on Khyber for the last 2 years that our "power guilds" just farm out healing to pugs? The entire raid will be melees from their guild with 2-3 pug healers. Why should they have the expense of being a healer?

[Vormaerin]

The quotes you have tried to attribute to me are not anything I remember saying. They appear to be something you fabricated.


Sorry, should have used ' ' instead of " ". But you have repeatedly said things like 'all a melee needs to do is left click' and other comments implying that more skill is necessary to play a non melee character. But that's simply not true.

Its equally easy to play a bad caster as it is to play a bad melee. The only difference is that the bad caster is more obvious.

In many ways, its far more difficult to play a good melee character because they have fewer abilities just handed to them. You claim that your casters "invest" in self healing, but that's kind of disingenuous. Its IMPOSSIBLE to make a cleric that can't self heal. Its very easy to make a wizard, fvs, or sorcerer who self heals. What's the "investment"? You pick a spell? Gosh, I'm totally impressed with your skill and effort there.

Melees have to gather gear for their resists, heals, and other buffs. Clerics just have all that for existing. The only "investment" is remembering to use it.


Is the /role/ of party healer harder than other roles in the game? Yes. Part of that is because so many players are bad at the game, part of that is just the nature of games. DPS roles are easy. Tanking and Healing are more difficult and more obvious when they fail. However, only a small amount of content requires either.

Btw, your argument about content that is melee centric is spurious. Which of that melee centric content could you not complete with casters just as easily? Where's the content that has clerics and wizards saying "OMG, the barb can do that and I can't."

LFMs are kind of stupid way to evaluate things, considering how many people put entirely unnecessary restrictions on their groups. Besides, its not like you are going to seriously claim that you can't get a group on your cleric? Or even that you ever need one, except on a raid?

[Calebro]

Heck Cal, haven't you noticed on Khyber for the last 2 years that our "power guilds" just farm out healing to pugs? The entire raid will be melees from their guild with 2-3 pug healers. Why should they have the expense of being a healer?

One of my toons has completed more Titans than he has Shrouds, because every single time I want to run Shroud on him I get tired of waiting and end up swapping to one of my healers instead.
Since his TR, he has over 30 Titans, but doesn't have a cleanser yet. It's kind of sad.
But I don't see what that has to do with this. Raids need nannybots. It's a fact of life.
Most quests do not need nannybots like that.

[Seb]

"No challenge, no fun" reflects my sentiments perfectly. The Abbot raid has long been my favorite quest, specifically because it requires some learned skills. Failure is not uncommon in Abbot but it generally happens pretty quickly and reforming is easy.

I like the recent increases to difficulty in epic Von and shroud as well. Makes those old quests more interesting. The normal version is still there for people just learning.

If I had one quest to change it would still be threnal east part 3. It is better now that we can knock out coyle but it is still really frustrating to fail just because he is so squishy and stupid. It feels almost like the old von2 where you could do everything right and fail the whole quest by falling.

Most quests feel like playing poker. There is luck involved but over the long run skill counts. Threnal east 3 is more like Russian roulette. I've learned enough tricks to get through it most of the time but sometimes I do everything right and coyle still shoots himself in the head.

[sweez]

If a pure barbarian can solo elite Sins sans hireling, then why are groups constantly searching for a dedicated healer?


How many barbarians have you seen solo elite sins without SF pots? It's a silly example, since I'd wager that less than 1% of the population (and by that I mean population that actually has the packs to get 400 favor) has access to SF pots.

True, the situation is changing, slightly, due to the bravery bonus, but not by much.

[sweez]

The point of vicious is that, properly used, you kill the mobs significantly faster and, therefore, come out ahead. Because, in general, the mobs will hit you harder than your vicious does. So mobs dead sooner = less healing needed.

Exactly. The faster mobs die, the less you have to heal. That's why 0 AC tanks work - sure, you'll have to heal them more often, but the boss also dies faster, so it evens out in the end :p

I've never found frenzy to be of any significance while playing my healers, there's plenty free healing sources available to divines (RS aura, FvS capstone). Now if a barb has low enough heal amp that you don't just have to throw a freebie at him once in a while, then yeah, it can become an issue. But that's a gear issue (really it's 2011, not having at least 150ish heal amp is just sad), not a frenzy issue.

[Monkeytoe]

I'm not sure that this thread was intended to solicit opinions on how to get more people to play healers, But here is my reponse to some of what I read about that in this thread:

When I play one of my healers, often because I saw an lfm requesting heals or because someone (usually, but not always, a guildy or someone I know from pugging other characters asks me to) it is my intention to keep the party healed and protected with whatever divine magic I can bring to bear. I don't play my healers to dominate the kill count, to do traps, or to CC... although I suppose I could if I wanted to make the trade-offs.

If encouraging people to dust off their healers or start new ones is an issue, I think that could be done by putting something in the xp report showing how much healing each character contributed and how many hit points each character had to be healed. That way the party would have proof that it was, it in fact, the Warforged Sorcerer that sucked up all of the healers sp, not the poor Half Orc Barbarian. I'm not saying that the only reason people worship kill count is because its in the XP report or that the only reason people don't play healers is because it gets no XP-report love, but just because I'm not saying it doesn't mean it isn't true.


I'm not sure that this thread was intended to solicit opinions how much better it is to solo quests than to learn how to play with other people, But here, again, is my reponse to some of what I read about that in this thread:

When I started playing this game it seemed like we were ALL noobs. It was great. We had to figure out the quirks of all feats, skills and gear, figure out each quest, and work together to successfully complete them. There was alot of fighting in doorways and using other tactics, there was tanking and dps'ing and cc'ing and people learning different, and sometimes counterintuitive, roles for different classess.

But never mind all of that, what I liked was that it was social: we played in groups, maybe only because we had to to do it to succeed, but the game wasn't nearly as antisocial an activity as people (well, people that post alot) seem to think it should be. I'm not saying I think players should be beat into grouping, but I liked this game because it was a team oriented tactical roleplaying game, not because I wanted to log onto to a massively multiplayer persistent world scenario and prove how above it all I was by playing alone.

Now... If I read the OP correctly, this was intended to solicit opinions on the difficulty of the game. Well. The most difficult part of this game is understanding equiptment and the second most difficult thing is navigating certain quest chains. I beleive that those are the two most off-putting things to new players.

If the devs were to go after only one of those two things, I'd say go after un-complicating the quest chains.

I don't know what could be done about understaning equiptment except maybe putting a link to DDOWiki on the splash screen. Learning (and exploiting!) the byzantine and often occluded desideratta of proper equiptment has always been one of the charms of D&D. Well, *I* think so, anyway.

The difficulty of the quests themselves seems ok to me. Its hard to judge, though, because the equiptment can vary so broadly between a toon fresh off the boat and even another 28 pt. build with well crafted gear. I don't blame crafted gear, I've aquired some pretty sweet low level race restricted gear that, for my lowbies, I still prefer over cannith crafted gear for the application. What I mean is, that quality of gear was always available if you were the kind of nut who looked for it, and it was possible well before cannith crafting to twink a character out to perform at a significanly higher CR than level alone would indicate.

I think that, when designing a quest's encounters to fit a certain level range, if you take the max of gear and character optimisation as the max Character CR for that character level and index that to your Creature CR for the encounters at Elite difficulty and then work backwards towards some rational model of how well equipt and optimised a new character of the character-level in question usually is and index that to your creature CR for Normal difficulty, and then split the difference for Hard difficulty... I think that you could relegate "dungeon scaling" to Casual difficulty (giving everything a Casual difficulty box) and then... every one might be able to play all of the content, level appropriate, solo or with friends. Assuming they have friends.

Oh sure, just skip to the bottom!

[GermanicusMaximus]

Its equally easy to play a bad caster as it is to play a bad melee.

I don't know if it is fruitful to talk about the relative ease of doing anything poorly. The bottom line is that doing anything poorly really isn't that much fun, at least to me.

I think its more interesting to talk about the relative ease of playing

1) an average melee vs an average caster
2) a stellar melee vs a stellar caster

As I have said, from what I have seen the average, 50th percentile non-monk, non-tank melee doesn't do much more than click and hold left mouse button. That 50th percentile includes all the melee that simply have auto attack turned on. I'm pretty sure that the average caster, arcane or divine, requires more than that. Either that, or I am really, really good and simply not giving myself enough credit.

A stellar melee vs a stellar caster? This could be an interesting experiment. Imagine taking 2 of the iconic figures on the forums: Sirgog and Shade. Have Sirgog roll a barb, Shade roll a FvS. Throw those toons into some moderately interesting content, say eChrono. Which toon do you think would perform better? My bet is on the barb, assuming the FvS could keep him up for any length of time.


The only difference is that the bad caster is more obvious.


We have this that we can easily agree upon.



In many ways, its far more difficult to play a good melee character because they have fewer abilities just handed to them. You claim that your casters "invest" in self healing, but that's kind of disingenuous. Its IMPOSSIBLE to make a cleric that can't self heal. Its very easy to make a wizard, fvs, or sorcerer who self heals. What's the "investment"? You pick a spell? Gosh, I'm totally impressed with your skill and effort there.


The cleric investment here is pretty substantial. Its taking a class that has significantly less DPS potential in return for the ability to heal. That certainly seems like significantly more than just picking a spell.

The FvS has more DPS potential (to be expected for a P2P class), but can't match or exceed the average melee DPS unless he goes past the 50th percentile effort and actually does something more than auto-attack or hold down left mouse button (sorry, reality of average melee play once again).

To obtain self healing, an arcane is usually a Pale Master (an entire PrE enhancement) or a WF (a race with less than optimal stats for a caster).

The average investment of a melee toon in healing? Typing "Hjeal me!" in party chat.




Is the /role/ of party healer harder than other roles in the game? Yes. Part of that is because so many players are bad at the game, part of that is just the nature of games. DPS roles are easy. Tanking and Healing are more difficult and more obvious when they fail.

Agreed, and to be honest I think tanking, when you look at the entire picture of what it takes, is probably even more demanding than being a healer in this game. I sure wish we had more good tanks. When I run a raid with a good tank, the first thing I do is scan my chest loot for anything I can toss his way, because he certainly deserves it.

If MadFloyd wants to start buffing melee, I certainly hope he looks at tanks first.




However, only a small amount of content requires either.



On tanks, agreed.

Healers? The game, as most mere mortals play it, seems to require a party healer unless the party is specifically constructed with a self healing entry requirement. The LFMs for those are easy to spot. They seem to say either "all caster" or "BYOH". I don't run in BYOH parties, but I assume that is often met with a cleric hireling per player.




Btw, your argument about content that is melee centric is spurious. Which of that melee centric content could you not complete with casters just as easily? Where's the content that has clerics and wizards saying "OMG, the barb can do that and I can't."



That would depend upon whether we are talking about

1) the average, 50th percentile, hold down left mouse button melee vs the average, 50th percentile, hold down left mouse button (AKA bank toon) caster

2) an elite melee vs an elite caster.

The bank toon has a hard time competing in scenario (1). In scenario (2), the caster kicks butt, but then going back to my theoretical Sirgog vs Shade challenge, I don't believe most top melee players can play the caster at an elite level of effectiveness. Those we can probably play both already, and its the caster which tests the limits of their player skill.




Besides, its not like you are going to seriously claim that you can't get a group on your cleric? Or even that you ever need one, except on a raid?

As you would expect, my cleric isn't exactly begging for opportunities to join a group.

Sadly, I have never been able to successfully solo eWizKing. Or a lot of other things for that matter. Of course I can solo a great deal of content. To be honest, when I want to just kick back and relax, I run something solo. Yes, keeping myself healed, and offensive casting and/or meleeing through a dungeon is actually easier and more relaxing than throwing party heals in this game.

That's not to say that soloing is easy. Its just easier than healing a party. Its much easier than healing a party full of people who seem intent on doing foolish things.

[Vormaerin]

It looks to me like we largely agree, except that you like to emphasize the average (bad) player as being the class' expectation, whereas I think its more useful to discuss what the character can/should be doing.

I'm not convinced that between blade barrier, cometfall, destruction, and Divine punishment, the cleric is really giving up a whole lot of destructive power compared to the barbarian or fighter in the course of a typical quest.

You are right that good play is uncommon. Many players come from other games that have very strict role division and expect that to apply here. Neither of us have played those games, so maybe that's an advantage to us. In a classic MMO trinity game, the tank and the healer are pretty close to incapable of doing meaningful damage, so any time they do anything except defend or heal (respectively), they are weakening the party. Players used to that come here and think that's how it works in DDO.

Good players know better. A good melee should be using CC (stunning blow, trip), debuffs (improved sunder), have pots for removing status effects, and made some provision for self healing (usually SF pots at the high end, other pots earlier), and have an assortment of buffs from clickies.

Is that the norm? No. But, to be fair, there are plenty of clerics who think they are pulling their weight by hitting Mass Heal every time it comes off cooldown, which isn't exactly complex gameplay either.


I'm not going to get into what particular players can do. In my experience, top players tend to play well with a wide range of classes because its more about wanting to be the best than about DDO having any tasks that physically complex. Whether an individual is better at top quality twitch play or better at watching the big picture of 6 or 12 status bars, is not really a useful thing to discuss. It doesn't say anything objective about the class, just about the person's interests/skills.

[Ungood]

In my experience, top players tend to play well with a wide range of classes because its more about wanting to be the best than about DDO having any tasks that physically complex. Whether an individual is better at top quality twitch play or better at watching the big picture of 6 or 12 status bars, is not really a useful thing to discuss. It doesn't say anything objective about the class, just about the person's interests/skills.

This is very true. Many players who like challenge in it's own right have a diverse portfolio of builds, many may be at cap. And while typically imho it seems that each player has a flavor of class they like, IE: Some love FvS, and Mix them into every build, while others have a thing for Monks. A Guild mate of mine has a thing for Bards, and has found a way to mix bard into almost every build they played. But they, like me, still have a capped melee, divine, and arcane, and if you look at most top players, they also typically has a split of each kind of class at cap.

It has been my experience that many of the top players and tight knit guilds do this so that there is no shortage of any class for raiding, so that they are not in fact "waiting on the healer" as any and every one of them should be able to "log on their Divine", and equally so, in my sampling, people who are skilled at playing their melee builds, play solid with their every-build.

As I said.

Divines are fun to play, the problem is not in the class. And while yes, every class could do with finished PRE's and the like, revision is not really needed. To me it was more an issue of dealing with people who wanted to treat me like their private slave.

[Sarisa]

Now if a barb has low enough heal amp that you don't just have to throw a freebie at him once in a while, then yeah, it can become an issue. But that's a gear issue (really it's 2011, not having at least 150ish heal amp is just sad), not a frenzy issue.

While any sane and well played Melee will acquire the good Healing Amp gear (and why not, eClaw set is one of the best DPS sets too), there are a HUGE number of Warforged Barbs on Sarlona (heavy East Asian population) that don't bother with even Healer's Friend 1. They're wearing Red scale docents, eSoS's, but have 0 amp whatsoever.



It has been my experience that many of the top players and tight knit guilds do this so that there is no shortage of any class for raiding, so that they are not in fact "waiting on the healer" as any and every one of them should be able to "log on their Divine", and equally so, in my sampling, people who are skilled at playing their melee builds, play solid with their every-build.

As I said.

Divines are fun to play, the problem is not in the class. And while yes, every class could do with finished PRE's and the like, revision is not really needed. To me it was more an issue of dealing with people who wanted to treat me like their private slave.

Yes, biggest issue is how divines are treated in the general PUG scene. I play my Cleric 90-95% of the time, and almost always will gladly heal a raid instead of playing my Pali or Sorc. Just sometimes, I would just like to try to get a ToD ring for my Pali instead of healing every single one.

Another big problem is that BtC ingredients (and to a lesser extent raid loot for the huge loot table raids) make it so that people are less likely to want to bring their healer if they want to gear up their other characters. While raid loot I can understand being BtC, it does get frustrating to finally see that Ravager ring or Marilith Chain drop when you're on the wrong character, when you switched to help the group. Ingredients (LoB in particular) should be BtA.

As for UMD on a CHA dumped half-rank class, reaching the 39 UMD to no-fail Heal scrolls is not easy. For example, my Cleric is heavily invested in UMD. I can only reach up to 37 UMD, and that involves a lot of gear-swapping and buffs. Granted, since I'm a Cleric, I have less need for reaching that 39 UMD mark, but I still use Greater Teleport (for Titan), Teleport (general travel), Invis, Knock, Blur, DDoor (when I have the scrolls and need to), and a Staff of Arcane Power.

The breakdown looks like:
11 Ranks
5 CHA mod (8 base+3 tome+2 enhancements+7 item)
5 Greensteel CHA skills/Conc Opp item, I could get 1 more if I used a wasted tier 1.
5 Seven Fingered Gloves - I wouldn't count on many people having these due to the pathetically low drop rate.
4 Greater Heroism
2 Good Luck
3 Epic Big Top (Tier 3 Epic Spyglass works too)
1 Ship buffs CHA shrine
1 CHA Yugoloth potion
--
37

My normal unbuffed standing UMD without gear swaps is 26 (11 ranks+5 CHA+5 Greensteel+2 Good Luck+3 Persuasion).

Yes, it's possible to get viable UMD on a pure fleshy wizard who dumped CHA, but it requires a great deal of equipment to do so. I can only hit this high with a number of gear swaps and temporary buffs.

[Habreno]

Here's my thoughts on this situation.

Levels 1-4 are an absolute joke, but that's good because I know the quests at those levels. For new players, these are fun, but still not that challenging, which is good.

Levels 5-10 are a bit harder, but still fairly easy to run. Elite starts to become an actual challenge at this point, but new players being careful can still complete everything quite easily while having fun.

Levels 11 and 12 start to increase the difficulty a bit. This is okay, because this is past the first cap in the game. You're also starting to get new spells and more abilities that improve your character a lot. This is where areas start to get difficult unless you know the content, but not undoable.

Levels 13-16 really ramp the difficulty up. What was on elite before, being a 5 , is now on elite, a 7. Normal has gone up slightly as well, from what I'd rate a 2 before level 13 to a 3 in this range. However, nothing is undoable by any solid group, even elite is possible.

Levels 17-19 start to make things extremely difficult. Quests on Normal become slightly more difficult, and Elite is now a major threat. Normal I'd have to give a 4 now, and Elite would be a 9. Most quests can be completed on Normal quite easily, but some get harder to do.

At cap, you get Epics. These vary greatly by pack. However, the general concensus is that some packs are difficult and some are downright impossible, while some are fairly easy.

[Yagisan]

I'll preface this by stating I am a new ( and paying ) player - fresh off the Korthos boat if you like - and do not have all the gear that it is assumed one will have before doing various quests. I also find myself soloing often, with occasionally a hireling.

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?
I've made it to level 10 so far, and yes, there have been quests that I have found to be too hard on Normal _at level_ - I can usually solo them once I am 1-3 levels above what they should be.


If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout? I do feel there is some inconsistancy. Korthos starts off well, and makes you think that you can continue on at normal for the rest of the game. Then you get to the harbour and discover that actually, no, it's now a lot harder.


What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you? I expect to solo any quest on casual and expect to win. This is currently not possible - Hold for Reinforcements gets a special mention here for thus far being the only quest I am simply unable to finish on casual with a hireling - at level, it and Escort the Expedition are the only times I've had to drop back to casual to solo these in this chain. Perhaps it will get easier when I'm over level - but I want to follow the story now. I expect that on Normal, I will be challenged, but with a hireling I should have a reasonable chance of success. I detest any quest where I simply can not progress because a single player and hireling is not enough party members to continue. This means I can not complete Necropolis 1. I hope not to discover any more quests like this.


I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating. It is. I think casual ( the "Story/Easy" button ) should be an expected win. I would like there to be more distinction between the 5 difficulty levels, casual, normal, hard, elite, and epic. hard and elite feel much the same. Epic ? well, given that I've hit quests that casual is hard on, I'll let you know if I ever make it to epic!


We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!' I think that perhaps on the easier difficulty levels you are.


Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests. Thank you for taking the time to gather feedback. I hope this helps improve the game.

[jkm]

I expect to solo any quest on casual and expect to win. This is currently not possible - Hold for Reinforcements gets a special mention here for thus far being the only quest I am simply unable to finish on casual with a hireling - at level, it and Escort the Expedition are the only times I've had to drop back to casual to solo these in this chain. Perhaps it will get easier when I'm over level - but I want to follow the story now. I expect that on Normal, I will be challenged, but with a hireling I should have a reasonable chance of success. I detest any quest where I simply can not progress because a single player and hireling is not enough party members to continue. This means I can not complete Necropolis 1. I hope not to discover any more quests like this.

Coyle is the DDO version of Newman.

The only near fullproof method that we have found to finishing this stupid quest on elite is to use air elementals and invisibility.

IMO, there are 3 Fail Mission Types in DDO.

1. The Guard X Mission - The primary problemchilds here are Cannith Crystal and Coyle. I think I've failed Cannith Crystal on Elite solo more than I have all of the harbor quest combined. The worst failure ever was when i twitch dodged the niacs to have it hit the crystal behind me and shatter it.

2. The Escort X Mission - I'm broadening the scope on this to be any quest where they force one party member to do nothing while the rest get to adventure. The worst culprit is Prison of the Planes. As a matter of a fact, our guild uses that quest as the final test for guild membership. If they don't volunteer to sit on the switch at least once, they fail.

3. Gather Your Party - Holy griefing mechanic. Misery's Peak is the first time you see this until mainly the carnival series. Lets see. We've had guys go AFK and never come back at the entrance, guys get called into work mid quest and we couldn't finish, guys throw a fit and purposefully not allow us to finish.

And the sad part about this? 2 of these 3 fail mechanics are present in Korthos. I can't emphasize enough the frustration with Misery's Peak. I tried to run with some pugs for a while and more than 1/2 would get griefed out. I wouldn't be surprised if Turbine lost 25% of their new players in that quest alone.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Coyle is the DDO version of Newman.

The only near fullproof method that we have found to finishing this stupid quest on elite is to use air elementals and invisibility.

IMO, there are 3 Fail Mission Types in DDO.

1. The Guard X Mission - The primary problemchilds here are Cannith Crystal and Coyle. I think I've failed Cannith Crystal on Elite solo more than I have all of the harbor quest combined. The worst failure ever was when i twitch dodged the niacs to have it hit the crystal behind me and shatter it.

2. The Escort X Mission - I'm broadening the scope on this to be any quest where they force one party member to do nothing while the rest get to adventure. The worst culprit is Prison of the Planes. As a matter of a fact, our guild uses that quest as the final test for guild membership. If they don't volunteer to sit on the switch at least once, they fail.

3. Gather Your Party - Holy griefing mechanic. Misery's Peak is the first time you see this until mainly the carnival series. Lets see. We've had guys go AFK and never come back at the entrance, guys get called into work mid quest and we couldn't finish, guys throw a fit and purposefully not allow us to finish.

And the sad part about this? 2 of these 3 fail mechanics are present in Korthos. I can't emphasize enough the frustration with Misery's Peak. I tried to run with some pugs for a while and more than 1/2 would get griefed out. I wouldn't be surprised if Turbine lost 25% of their new players in that quest alone.I've only played DDO online solo, to date, and so I never previously understood the remark at the end of Misery's Peak "I'll wait until your whole party gathers", or something like that. Many games don't have this mechanic at all and they're still fun; it isn't needed here, either.

Guard missions *can* be fun when they're balanced so that your character has some difficulty surviving the ensuing fireworks; the one being guarded may or may not be invulnerable, and it can be fun even if they're not. But, in multiple games it seems that those in charge of design make the one being guarded into far and away the weakest link by making them quite fragile and/or suicidal. There's something inherently frustrating about guarding a viable candidate for a Darwin Award, but that doesn't seem to fully register with developers in many games; it seems to be very common that "guard <insert dummy's name here>" missions are amongst the most frustrating in any given game.

[Scraap]

One note I'd like to add, is that when the difference in a given strategy is based purely on metagame numbers acquired through gear and bufs, and you can go from godly to grease-stain for lack of them, it will hit both ends of the spectrum. The long time players get bored, and the folks just acquiring those numbers get left in the cold. It's likely why we see so much of a disparity between folks calling content easy and hard. I do think more could be done to take advantage of the active component of the active combat system, but that'll be better served when we come to discussing AC and class balance.

[voodoogroves]

One note I'd like to add, is that when the difference in a given strategy is based purely on metagame numbers acquired through gear and bufs, and you can go from godly to grease-stain for lack of them, it will hit both ends of the spectrum. The long time players get bored, and the folks just acquiring those numbers get left in the cold. It's likely why we see so much of a disparity between folks calling content easy and hard. I do think more could be done to take advantage of the active component of the active combat system, but that'll be better served when we come to discussing AC and class balance.

"Active" and "AC" are kinda on different ends of the spectrum. There was thread a while back on AC per level to not get hit ... and Shade replied "WASD is all the AC I need" or something similar.

Active combat, dodge-able rays, etc. ... minimize the value of AC and completely remove touch AC from the equation. Those are both "passive" effects - things you kinda "have" and the system, somewhere, rolls against them.

Don't get me wrong, I love the active components of the system - really gives it a fun and immersive feel. That said, in PNP D&D you can play the dodgy, hard to hit monk ... in DDO you can build the same stats, but the dodgy part is more about your keyboard skills than the build.

[Ungood]

Yes, biggest issue is how divines are treated in the general PUG scene. I play my Cleric 90-95% of the time, and almost always will gladly heal a raid instead of playing my Pali or Sorc. Just sometimes, I would just like to try to get a ToD ring for my Pali instead of healing every single one.

Another good point as well, some days, we just want to play something different. I mean nothing quite says "ARRGHHH" like seeing two Ravnger Rings drop while playing your Cleric and then Seeing the RS ring Drop when you are playing your barb :D

[Scraap]

"Active" and "AC" are kinda on different ends of the spectrum. There was thread a while back on AC per level to not get hit ... and Shade replied "WASD is all the AC I need" or something similar.

Active combat, dodge-able rays, etc. ... minimize the value of AC and completely remove touch AC from the equation. Those are both "passive" effects - things you kinda "have" and the system, somewhere, rolls against them.

Don't get me wrong, I love the active components of the system - really gives it a fun and immersive feel. That said, in PNP D&D you can play the dodgy, hard to hit monk ... in DDO you can build the same stats, but the dodgy part is more about your keyboard skills than the build.

To a degree, yes. One thing PnPs got that DDO doesn't though is attacks of opportunity, flatfooted, and the principles behind them from a design aspect, and that largely is influenced by battlefield geometry and motion. I should probably have said 'compensating for the low end of the spectrum with applied tactics'. We see this at present in caster mobility, hiding on the other side of a tank, and ranging it before it gets close. Not so much the folks that have little other option than to dps it down. It'll probably make a bit more sense once I break the suggestion on down , but that's a fairly long post, as well as premature, since we haven't gotten into that specific discussion yet.

[FranOhmsford]

As for UMD on a CHA dumped half-rank class, reaching the 39 UMD to no-fail Heal scrolls is not easy. For example, my Cleric is heavily invested in UMD. I can only reach up to 37 UMD, and that involves a lot of gear-swapping and buffs. Granted, since I'm a Cleric, I have less need for reaching that 39 UMD mark, but I still use Greater Teleport (for Titan), Teleport (general travel), Invis, Knock, Blur, DDoor (when I have the scrolls and need to), and a Staff of Arcane Power.

The breakdown looks like:
11 Ranks
5 CHA mod (8 base+3 tome+2 enhancements+7 item)
5 Greensteel CHA skills/Conc Opp item, I could get 1 more if I used a wasted tier 1.
5 Seven Fingered Gloves - I wouldn't count on many people having these due to the pathetically low drop rate.
4 Greater Heroism
2 Good Luck
3 Epic Big Top (Tier 3 Epic Spyglass works too)
1 Ship buffs CHA shrine
1 CHA Yugoloth potion
--
37

My normal unbuffed standing UMD without gear swaps is 26 (11 ranks+5 CHA+5 Greensteel+2 Good Luck+3 Persuasion).

Yes, it's possible to get viable UMD on a pure fleshy wizard who dumped CHA, but it requires a great deal of equipment to do so. I can only hit this high with a number of gear swaps and temporary buffs.

Just have to ask here: Why did you dump Charisma on a cleric?

Couldn't you spare the build points for 12 or even 14 Cha for Turns?

[jkm]

Just have to ask here: Why did you dump Charisma on a cleric?

Couldn't you spare the build points for 12 or even 14 Cha for Turns?

Because you can acquire turns in other ways that charisma its a handy stat to dump. If that character is a melee build or a high ac clonk then other stats may have been a priority. 6 build points for 3 turns that most of the time you never run out of vs +3 to hit/damage vs +3 AC is a big dealio.

And also remember that she's a cleric - she doesn't umd heal scrolls ;)

[jkm]

"Active" and "AC" are kinda on different ends of the spectrum. There was thread a while back on AC per level to not get hit ... and Shade replied "WASD is all the AC I need" or something similar.

Active combat, dodge-able rays, etc. ... minimize the value of AC and completely remove touch AC from the equation. Those are both "passive" effects - things you kinda "have" and the system, somewhere, rolls against them.

Don't get me wrong, I love the active components of the system - really gives it a fun and immersive feel. That said, in PNP D&D you can play the dodgy, hard to hit monk ... in DDO you can build the same stats, but the dodgy part is more about your keyboard skills than the build.

Shade's WASD is more a factor of a borked collision model with 2 handed weapons than anything else. Don't believe me? Grab a Greatsword and run backwards in a circle in the vail swinging while **** is chasing you, nothing will touch you while you do damage. Pre-DQ Change I "solo'd" the queen in DQ2 doing this much to the hilarity of everyone in our guild. Our premise is that it takes a reading at the location you are at when you start swinging but doesn't actually take a reading on the mob location until the swing gets later in the arc. This time delay causes a chaser to miss and a chasee to auto-hit. Please note that this doesn't work as well when the weapon arc gets shorter.

Now that being said, when I first started this game we were allowed to tumble out of attack range while mobs were swinging. It was some of the most fun I've ever had in a game. However, this was considered "not working as intended" and was more or less nerfed except in the kiting situation above.

[Sarisa]

Just have to ask here: Why did you dump Charisma on a cleric?

Couldn't you spare the build points for 12 or even 14 Cha for Turns?

My Cleric was built before Radiant Servant was added to the game. Turns were FAR less important then. I maxed WIS, CON, and put the rest into STR.

That breakdown would be similar to what a CHA dumped Wizard would have. Similar gear layout. I could reach the 39 necessary by doing a 6 CHA skills Greensteel instead of 5, and putting exceptional +2 CHA on a ToD ring. I personally don't need the 39, but a fleshy 20 WIZ Archmage might want the extra. Just do note that it is not easy on a half-rank UMD class who dumped CHA to reach 39 UMD for Heal/Recon scrolls. It's definitely doable, but it requires a lot of gearing and grind to do so.

----

As for Escort missions, the devs seem to be acknowledging that they're annoying for a lot of people. The newest one, Power Play, your charge will go invulnerable so you don't have to worry about her at all. The previous one, Last Stand, has an NPC that self heals and is rather durable (especially on epic). Weapon's Shipment gives the Planescaller 200% Healing Amp and has her cast CC spells that occasionally actually work.

The devs also changed the horrendously annoying fail condition of Gladewatch from keep the monsters out to a less annoying protect the captain. You can use social skills to place the captain in a decent spot and keep her out of danger.

The devs also made Small Problem a bit easier on normal, hard, and epic. Elite is still on the "rough" side, mostly due to the danger of the Messenger of Pits and his level drain on hit proc, which can kill a non-Deathwarded Brawnpits in a matter of seconds.

It's mostly old quests, *cough*Threnal, that have the obnoxious types of escort missions.

----

The "gather your party" mechanics I understand, but something needs to be done about the annoyance of AFK'ers, Pikers, and deliberate Griefers in those types of quests. I understand the reasoning of having it for Misery's Peak, but it does cause a lot of strife and grief for newer players. It's especially frustrating due to the sheer length of Misery's Peak.

[Kinerd]

I had another thought, please forgive me if this has been addressed.

It is not clear what the intended difficulty is for raids. They have a quest level associated with them. For quests, it is pretty clear that in general a level 19 quest will have stronger/more dangerous challenges than a level 2 quest. It has been frequently claimed by a vocal poster on the forums that raids are in general intended as endgame content, and recent changes to various raids have borne out that claim.

Put shortly, is it the developer intent that all (or most) raids are intended to be challenging for level 20 parties? If so, why aren't all (or most) raids given a quest level of 20?

[GermanicusMaximus]

I'm not convinced that between blade barrier, cometfall, destruction, and Divine punishment, the cleric is really giving up a whole lot of destructive power compared to the barbarian or fighter in the course of a typical quest.


If my cleric was toothless, he wouldn't be able to solo anything. But to a large extent it becomes a battle of attrition where I just wear down the mobs as opposed to a quick obliteration. There are some things that are really a PITA for my cleric. Self healing bosses immune to insta-kill is one of them.

Clerics have weapons, but those weapons have limitations:

1) Blade Barrier

Mobs that have range attack capability tend to refuse to be kited through a blade barrier. Note that enemy casters fall into this category.

Kiting things through a Blade Barrier (even with Superior Potency, Maximize Spell, and Empower Spell) isn't exactly a quick kill. Better have a pair of striders too.

2) Cometfall

Utterly unimpressed. Given the options of spells at that level, it isn't even prepped. I tend to chain group and solo runs, and seldom take the time to change what spells I have.

3) Destruction (and his big brother Implosion) are nice against trash, assuming that you have the DCs and Spell Penetration to make it land. Heighten Spell and items for DCs and Spell Penetration help. Can only dream of Spell Penetration and Spell Focus feats.

Cool down timer (especially one minute cooldown on Implosion) is a downer.

4) Divine Punishment

Proof that MadFloyd likes Divine casters at least a little bit. A Rahkir's set from ToD and a Green Blade are nice for the crits. You better Cannith craft at least one Superior Brilliance 5 clicky though. As far as I know, it doesn't drop from random loot gen or on any named loot.

Of course, you can further work on your Blade Barrier, Destruction/Implosion, and Divine Punishment. Just need enough runs of LoB hard to craft a few items.

In a long dungeon, you can blow a fair amount of spell points using the above. It helps to have a HoX shield and a torc so you can reload those spell points.

Even with all of the above, I took one level of fighter so I have full martial weapon access so I can pull out a green steel weapon or 2. Even with my gimp melee skills, some things just die more conveniently by whacking them.

A fair amount of equipment, build investment and situational knowledge to know when to apply what.

Did I mention that I feel obligated to slot in some group healing ability as well? :D

Its really a fun build to play, and I like it a lot, but some how I doubt that its the easiest path through DDO. I suppose I could just healbot, but I can really only stand so many back to back runs of Bastion of Power elite where 5 people zerg off in different directions. :D

[FranOhmsford]

My Cleric was built before Radiant Servant was added to the game. Turns were FAR less important then. I maxed WIS, CON, and put the rest into STR.

That breakdown would be similar to what a CHA dumped Wizard would have. Similar gear layout. I could reach the 39 necessary by doing a 6 CHA skills Greensteel instead of 5, and putting exceptional +2 CHA on a ToD ring. I personally don't need the 39, but a fleshy 20 WIZ Archmage might want the extra. Just do note that it is not easy on a half-rank UMD class who dumped CHA to reach 39 UMD for Heal/Recon scrolls. It's definitely doable, but it requires a lot of gearing and grind to do so.


Thank you for the details Sarisa.

I've always wondered to be honest {I came to DDO from AD&D 2nd Ed.} why turns were charisma based in this game when Wisdom {Willpower} seems far more apt.

If the devs want to make Clerics more widely used this would be a good place to start as I see it.

Fav Souls have many benefits as a p2p class {as they should} but it has been said on these forums that charisma can easily be dumped in favour of wisdom for them.

Let's give Clerics a boost and change the turn system to wisdom based - then Clerics can more easily go str and con {maybe even add a coupla build points into int for skills} without worrying about dumping cha.


Because you can acquire turns in other ways that charisma its a handy stat to dump. If that character is a melee build or a high ac clonk then other stats may have been a priority. 6 build points for 3 turns that most of the time you never run out of vs +3 to hit/damage vs +3 AC is a big dealio.

And also remember that she's a cleric - she doesn't umd heal scrolls ;)

I wasn't saying to max cha but it seems strange to me that someone would dump it entirely.

Sarisa's reply has helped me understand the reasons why one would a bit more.

[jkm]

Let's give Clerics a boost and change the turn system to wisdom based - then Clerics can more easily go str and con {maybe even add a coupla build points into int for skills} without worrying about dumping cha.


Then you would screw over pallys who don't need much wisdom.

[FranOhmsford]

Then you would screw over pallys who don't need much wisdom.

I don't see why the devs couldn't give Pallies a free feat to use cha instead of wisdom.

Frankly I have a HotD Pally {TRd once - Currently lvl 7} and they already need an almighty boost to turn undead just to be on par with a radiant servant {never mind to be able to actually destroy anything}.

A Hunter of the Dead specialises in destroying the undead - He should be as good if not better at it than a Cleric of equal level.

[oradafu]

I don't see why the devs couldn't give Pallies a free feat to use cha instead of wisdom.

Frankly I have a HotD Pally {TRd once - Currently lvl 7} and they already need an almighty boost to turn undead just to be on par with a radiant servant {never mind to be able to actually destroy anything}.

A Hunter of the Dead specialises in destroying the undead - He should be as good if not better at it than a Cleric of equal level.

It's not the actual Turn Undead that will mess with Paladins, it's the two major enhancements tied to Turn Undead (Divine Light and Divine Might) that are the bread and butter to paladins. Changing Turn Undead to WIS will destroy the little bit of vitalibity of paladins left in the game. A free feat converting Turn Undead into different stat might be a way to go...

[FranOhmsford]

It's not the actual Turn Undead that will mess with Paladins, it's the two major enhancements tied to Turn Undead (Divine Light and Divine Might) that are the bread and butter to paladins. Changing Turn Undead to WIS will destroy the little bit of vitalibity of paladins left in the game. A free feat converting Turn Undead into different stat might be a way to go...

And adding this feat would allow for them to use cha too.

[Vormaerin]

:D

Its really a fun build to play, and I like it a lot, but some how I doubt that its the easiest path through DDO.

No, the easiest path through the game is warforged arcane. Self healing, immunities, better insta-kills, direct damage, DoTs, and persistant AoEs than a divine, and more mobility.

But I would really be interested in a list of quests you think can be done easier by a melee than a divine. I'm not aware of any quest where you are better off taking a solo melee character than solo divine. If there are some, I'd be glad to know about it.

I prefer to play melees. In LotRO, I have a Guardian (tank) and a Captain (functionally like a warchanter). I'm considered pretty terrible at ranged classes in most games. And I find it vastly easier to blow through hard and elite content solo on my human sorcerer than any of my more numerous melees.

Though it does get a little ugly sometimes when I'm limping through on Echoes of Power and Wands to reach the next shrine. :P

[Kindoki]

First off, I love DDO. Started playing during headstart, and played pretty steadily through the end of 2009. RL pretty much took me away after that, but I've enjoyed it enough to continue to pay $99+/yr just for the dozen or so times I've been able to play since early 2010. It's been very interesting to me to see the changes that have come in that time, as they are very apparent when you're only logging in every few months.

My opinion is that DDO is suffering from two things:

1. Losing focus in an attempt to recover after the dark ages of Atari.
2. The test server, dungeon scaling, hirelings

With regards to difficulty specifically, I think that DDO started running into trouble when they started trying to please everyone. In 2006, this was a team based game. I think changing the first quest so a rogue could actually complete it was a good change, but at least it was clear, even with every other class, that this was a group based game. In today's DDO, there is no purpose for anyone to group, unless you're brand new to the game.

With every group of people, there comes the overachievers - the Mr.Cow's and the Shade's (and others, those two are just easy to point at). These overachievers work their tails off to get the biggest, baddest, and best of everything, so that they can be better than everyone else. Then they go to the forums, and YouTube, and show everyone that they can be better than everyone else.

What the community ends up with is instant stratification. A whole bunch of people want to be uber, and they go out and try to replicate the feat - and fail. And take to the forums and complain. And leave the game. And, etc. This is not a bad thing, nor am I placing any blame on the uber gamers; heck, if I could do that stuff, I'd do so in a heartbeat. We need those guys/gals. I'm just making the statement; and I'm pretty sure it holds true across the breadth of gaming, as equal in mmo's and in Monopoly. There are have's and have not's.

However, in a group focused game, even the uber's need to come down from their lofty perch every so often and slum it with the rest of us. And, more importantly, slum it with the newbs. Even if it's just while learning new content. That constant mixing of talent is what keeps the game fresh, and introduces new people to new goals. The "Wow, my +1 flaming touch sword WILL get better! I want to that!".... The old uber's create a new set of up and coming ubers, and those ubers eventually do the same...

However, with the test server, dungeon scaling, and hirelings, that forced mixing between the have's and the have not's, was removed. There is never going to be any reason for the Mr.Cow's of the world to group with my gimpy cleric, Gwyar. Shade can learn everything he needs to know, before he even hits the live server, and by himself, if he likes. Which means my game isn't going to improve, I'll never have the chops to get to that next level of gear, and I'm not going to be able to pass on skills/tricks to others either. Instead, I'm potentially just left feeling envious.

Well, for those who felt envious, they wanted an easy button, and they got it. Dungeon scaling, DDO store, and hirelings. So now, even the middling players (like myself) don't have to group with anyone, if we don't want to. For example, I've got an original AC exploiter (18/1/1), a straight cleric (20), and an archmage (13). None are gimp, but none are cutting edge either. All have reasonable gear, but are also probably subgeared in comparison to others who have been around as long as I. But, those three characters can solo any quest (which doesn't require extra people to pull a lever) up to about Amrath (the archmage maybe not quite yet...), usually up to and including elite level. That's simply a combination of knowledge of the game and some disposable in game income. However, that's not possible for new players, who don't have that knowledge and plat.

So, now, there is a third stratification.

I probably won't ever get to the uber level because I don't have time/gear/patience for VOD, Abbott, etc., which would bring my game/gear up to the next level. I don't run with new people because I'm too impatient to teach people things nowadays, and I don't have the time for 'failure'. I do, however, recognize this about myself, and therefore I don't ask Turbine to help. I didn't need hirelings, or solo/casual, or the world's easiest crafting system. I am happy living in my little niche. But, I don't think most people who come to the forums, and fill out comment cards, have that level of personal responsibility for their own enjoyment.

So, we end up with people complaining. It's 'too easy' for the ubers because Turbine gives them too many options to make it easy. It's too hard for the casuals because Turbine gives us Epics and red named immunities to give the ubers a challenge; and the casuals are completely cut out of that opportunity based on skill and gear. It becomes a downward spiral.

So, to sum up a long ramble... if you want to fix difficulty, spend a weekend and come up with a mission statement for DDO. Decide if you want a casual game that anyone can play, or if you want an uber game. Decide if you want to force the majority of people to have to group together to succeed, or if you want them to be able to solo everything. Etc., etc. Then, go public. Say - "This is our intended direction. This is what we want to do with OUR game. I hope you like it. Sorry if you don't; we'll take your feedback on everything but changing our mission statement". Then, build that game.

Obviously, that's potentially something more long term (though it doesn't have to be). My simple point is that the difficulty isn't the problem; the myriad of ways you've created to eliminate difficulty is the problem.

So, my suggestion on how to fix difficulty now - without some form of overhaul to the systems currently in place - I suggest ditching the test server. Force people to learn on the public server. There will undoubtedly be a few guilds that become isolationist, but I don't think that will be significantly different than now. More likely, people will PUG more, and work together more (ala Abbott when it was first 'unbeatable', but before it became just annoying), and share more. A rising tide floats all boats.

If you could make one change to the difficulty system - 1. throw out dungeon scaling, or 2. tie it only to difficulty (solo/casual/norm/etc), or 3. tie only to specific areas (quests don't scale, but challenges do?).

My recommendations overall:

1. Ditch the test server. spend some RL money and hire some additional QC people like the rest of the world. Or, run test server weekends; but choose something that doesn't allow people to do all their 'gaming' on the test server, but their 'loot collecting' on the live servers.

2. Tie dungeon scaling solely to difficulty, not party size. Build quests/raids for 4/5ths group completion (i.e. 4-5 people in a quest and 8-10 people in a raid). If players can do with less, or need extra, so be it.

3. Limit hireling level (maybe 6th - 10th level hireling max? -why is a 20th level cleric hireling PUGing anyways?). Hirelings should be treated like any other consumable... they assist, but aren't capable of changing the outcome on their own.

4. Let the player outliers go. Find your sweet spot and let the ubers and the fairweathers go. You were handed a solid system of characters and questing. Stay true to those roots. The uber players who choose to leave will be replaced by others. The fairweathers will go back to Farmville. Of the ubers who leave, some will come back.

4a. I don't know enough about the gaming business to speak in anything other than basic business sense. So, if what I suggest doesn't hold true in this industry, then that's fine... but do the research to know what does hold true about customer retention/churn, and make a decision based on that. Then let people know that decision.

[zwiebelring]

So, to sum up a long ramble... if you want to fix difficulty, spend a weekend and come up with a mission statement for DDO. Decide if you want a casual game that anyone can play, or if you want an uber game. Decide if you want to force the majority of people to have to group together to succeed, or if you want them to be able to solo everything. Etc., etc. Then, go public. Say - "This is our intended direction. This is what we want to do with OUR game. I hope you like it. Sorry if you don't; we'll take your feedback on everything but changing our mission statement". Then, build that game.

Obviously, that's potentially something more long term (though it doesn't have to be). My simple point is that the difficulty isn't the problem; the myriad of ways you've created to eliminate difficulty is the problem.

So, my suggestion on how to fix difficulty now - without some form of overhaul to the systems currently in place - I suggest ditching the test server. Force people to learn on the public server. There will undoubtedly be a few guilds that become isolationist, but I don't think that will be significantly different than now. More likely, people will PUG more, and work together more (ala Abbott when it was first 'unbeatable', but before it became just annoying), and share more. A rising tide floats all boats.

If you could make one change to the difficulty system - 1. throw out dungeon scaling, or 2. tie it only to difficulty (solo/casual/norm/etc), or 3. tie only to specific areas (quests don't scale, but challenges do?).

My recommendations overall:

1. Ditch the test server. spend some RL money and hire some additional QC people like the rest of the world. Or, run test server weekends; but choose something that doesn't allow people to do all their 'gaming' on the test server, but their 'loot collecting' on the live servers.

2. Tie dungeon scaling solely to difficulty, not party size. Build quests/raids for 4/5ths group completion (i.e. 4-5 people in a quest and 8-10 people in a raid). If players can do with less, or need extra, so be it.

3. Limit hireling level (maybe 6th - 10th level hireling max? -why is a 20th level cleric hireling PUGing anyways?). Hirelings should be treated like any other consumable... they assist, but aren't capable of changing the outcome on their own.

4. Let the player outliers go. Find your sweet spot and let the ubers and the fairweathers go. You were handed a solid system of characters and questing. Stay true to those roots. The uber players who choose to leave will be replaced by others. The fairweathers will go back to Farmville. Of the ubers who leave, some will come back.

4a. I don't know enough about the gaming business to speak in anything other than basic business sense. So, if what I suggest doesn't hold true in this industry, then that's fine... but do the research to know what does hold true about customer retention/churn, and make a decision based on that. Then let people know that decision.
+1 for every brick I quoted out of that wall of text. That is connected to the question I asked MadFloyd before. How do the devs want us, the community, to deal with the ingame challenge?

[gloopygloop]

So, to sum up a long ramble... if you want to fix difficulty, spend a weekend and come up with a mission statement for DDO. Decide if you want a casual game that anyone can play, or if you want an uber game. Decide if you want to force the majority of people to have to group together to succeed, or if you want them to be able to solo everything. Etc., etc. Then, go public. Say - "This is our intended direction. This is what we want to do with OUR game. I hope you like it. Sorry if you don't; we'll take your feedback on everything but changing our mission statement". Then, build that game.

I don't understand why DDO has to be an "easy" game or an "uber" game. There is room enough for both because there are close to 300 quests in the game.

If a dozen or so of those quests are just too hard for some players, then there are still well over two hundred quests that aren't too hard.

Some quests can be hard. Some quests can be easy. And that's okay.

[Kindoki]

I don't understand why DDO has to be an "easy" game or an "uber" game. There is room enough for both because there are close to 300 quests in the game.

If a dozen or so of those quests are just too hard for some players, then there are still well over two hundred quests that aren't too hard.

Some quests can be hard. Some quests can be easy. And that's okay.

I don't disagree with this. Please don't take my comments as asking to exclude anyone; but I think a little direction regarding intent would identify outliers for the community. i.e. "We fully anticipate that most players won't be able to run Epics. We fully anticipate that most players will graduate from Casual/Normal after a while. Therefore, don't expect us to spend a lot of time on these points because we're building our game experience for the 80% of people who usually run things on hard/elite."

Or something to that effect... basically, make a plan, explain it, and stick with it. Only change it based on concrete financial reasoning, or because the change fits in with the overall plan for the game.

A plan that favors the middle to high middle skill/focus level of gamer is my personal suggestion.

[Ungood]

I don't understand why DDO has to be an "easy" game or an "uber" game. There is room enough for both because there are close to 300 quests in the game.

If a dozen or so of those quests are just too hard for some players, then there are still well over two hundred quests that aren't too hard.

Some quests can be hard. Some quests can be easy. And that's okay.

That would be fine, if the rewards were not contingent upon the difficulty. And there were just some hard quests and some easy quests open for the people who like challenge for the sake of challenge.

But that is not the way it is, As it stands, the harder quests give the best rewards thus these "hard" quest deny some players gear they need to progress in the game, in effect stone walling them.

No one likes to be stonewalled.

Now. Yes, Instance Based games do allow for the difficulty to be vast, they could add in 100 different difficulty tiers for every quest, but even the most Uber player is not going to do the hardest difficulty if there is nothing in it for them beyond what they could get for doing it on the easiest setting. IE: No one would run elite quests if they got the exact same rewards if they ran it on casual.

So, yah. even the Uber players want more rewards for doing harder content, but equally so, no one wants to feel left out.

In that reform, Turbine really should take an assessment of who their target is. Even if they do not tell us, they should have a distinct direction of which demographic this game is targeted towards, and build in that direction. While some people outside that demographic will find it fun, and enjoy it, Turbine should keep to their path. Right now, the biggest problems seem to arise when they come across as inconsistent with the games direction, IE: putting in easy quests and then putting super hard quests, making things harder then easier, then harder again.

Thus Leaving people wondering what in tarnation is going on.

[FranOhmsford]

However, with the test server, dungeon scaling, and hirelings, that forced mixing between the have's and the have not's, was removed. There is never going to be any reason for the Mr.Cow's of the world to group with my gimpy cleric, Gwyar. Shade can learn everything he needs to know, before he even hits the live server, and by himself, if he likes. Which means my game isn't going to improve, I'll never have the chops to get to that next level of gear, and I'm not going to be able to pass on skills/tricks to others either. Instead, I'm potentially just left feeling envious.

Well, for those who felt envious, they wanted an easy button, and they got it. Dungeon scaling, DDO store, and hirelings. So now, even the middling players (like myself) don't have to group with anyone, if we don't want to. For example, I've got an original AC exploiter (18/1/1), a straight cleric (20), and an archmage (13). None are gimp, but none are cutting edge either. All have reasonable gear, but are also probably subgeared in comparison to others who have been around as long as I. But, those three characters can solo any quest (which doesn't require extra people to pull a lever) up to about Amrath (the archmage maybe not quite yet...), usually up to and including elite level. That's simply a combination of knowledge of the game and some disposable in game income. However, that's not possible for new players, who don't have that knowledge and plat.

So, now, there is a third stratification.

I probably won't ever get to the uber level because I don't have time/gear/patience for VOD, Abbott, etc., which would bring my game/gear up to the next level. I don't run with new people because I'm too impatient to teach people things nowadays, and I don't have the time for 'failure'. I do, however, recognize this about myself, and therefore I don't ask Turbine to help. I didn't need hirelings, or solo/casual, or the world's easiest crafting system. I am happy living in my little niche. But, I don't think most people who come to the forums, and fill out comment cards, have that level of personal responsibility for their own enjoyment.

So, we end up with people complaining. It's 'too easy' for the ubers because Turbine gives them too many options to make it easy. It's too hard for the casuals because Turbine gives us Epics and red named immunities to give the ubers a challenge; and the casuals are completely cut out of that opportunity based on skill and gear. It becomes a downward spiral.

So, to sum up a long ramble... if you want to fix difficulty, spend a weekend and come up with a mission statement for DDO. Decide if you want a casual game that anyone can play, or if you want an uber game. Decide if you want to force the majority of people to have to group together to succeed, or if you want them to be able to solo everything. Etc., etc. Then, go public. Say - "This is our intended direction. This is what we want to do with OUR game. I hope you like it. Sorry if you don't; we'll take your feedback on everything but changing our mission statement". Then, build that game.

Obviously, that's potentially something more long term (though it doesn't have to be). My simple point is that the difficulty isn't the problem; the myriad of ways you've created to eliminate difficulty is the problem.

So, my suggestion on how to fix difficulty now - without some form of overhaul to the systems currently in place - I suggest ditching the test server. Force people to learn on the public server. There will undoubtedly be a few guilds that become isolationist, but I don't think that will be significantly different than now. More likely, people will PUG more, and work together more (ala Abbott when it was first 'unbeatable', but before it became just annoying), and share more. A rising tide floats all boats.

If you could make one change to the difficulty system - 1. throw out dungeon scaling, or 2. tie it only to difficulty (solo/casual/norm/etc), or 3. tie only to specific areas (quests don't scale, but challenges do?).

My recommendations overall:

1. Ditch the test server. spend some RL money and hire some additional QC people like the rest of the world. Or, run test server weekends; but choose something that doesn't allow people to do all their 'gaming' on the test server, but their 'loot collecting' on the live servers.

2. Tie dungeon scaling solely to difficulty, not party size. Build quests/raids for 4/5ths group completion (i.e. 4-5 people in a quest and 8-10 people in a raid). If players can do with less, or need extra, so be it.

3. Limit hireling level (maybe 6th - 10th level hireling max? -why is a 20th level cleric hireling PUGing anyways?). Hirelings should be treated like any other consumable... they assist, but aren't capable of changing the outcome on their own.

4. Let the player outliers go. Find your sweet spot and let the ubers and the fairweathers go. You were handed a solid system of characters and questing. Stay true to those roots. The uber players who choose to leave will be replaced by others. The fairweathers will go back to Farmville. Of the ubers who leave, some will come back.

4a. I don't know enough about the gaming business to speak in anything other than basic business sense. So, if what I suggest doesn't hold true in this industry, then that's fine... but do the research to know what does hold true about customer retention/churn, and make a decision based on that. Then let people know that decision.

Remove hirelings and I will be stuck waiting for groups for every quest from lvl 4 onwards.

No thank you!

Remove hirelings above lvl 10 and I will be stuck waiting for groups from lvl 12 onwards

No thank you!

Hirelings aren't exactly uber anyway - Half the time they stand there looking at you as you're getting beaten to death.
Those people soloing epics with a hireling are leaving them at the start of the quest and calling them when needed - My hirelings are constantly with me and I still wouldn't even consider attempting some of the things posted on these forums.

Please Devs...Do not remove hirelings - In fact many of them need reworking to be actually useful thanks to the changes this game has gone through.
For Example: None of the Cleric hires past Natasha {Lvl 16} has DV or Turn Undead - Give Ayron, Heystack, Klin and Wyoh Rad Servant 2. Give Isadora, Beleth, Flagon, Samuel and Fergus Rad Servant 1.
Certain Fighter hirelings are wielding weapons that give neg levels - change the alignments of these hirelings to match the weapon please.

[Zlingerdark]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

My take on difficulty in a perfect world would be forget casual as I believe normal is pretty easy enough for most average casual players. I for one never used solo/casual mode.

Normal difficulty should be solo-able WITHOUT a hireling in most situations. Normal should be a difficulty that challenges the new player, but otherwise would not challenge a knowledgeable one. Normal should be designed to TEACH the new player the quest at hand. Such as it is a tool to learn never before run quest (and game concepts) and with just enough difficulty to allow for the eventual mishaps, and excessive use of resources to learn it without causing a total quest failure. It should be difficult for the first timer, without taxing them too severely in the process.

In most cases, currently, normal difficulty is about on par until about level 5 for an at level ease of difficulty. After that it seems the normal difficulty is progressively harder for a new learning solo player AT LEVEL or one above. Hirelings start becoming necessary for some classes to survive. Experienced players can probably still cruise through the level 5-10 solo with any class without a hireling (regardless of gear).

Between 10-20 the normal difficulty for solo players start to get completely out of line for a new player to attempt AT LEVEL or one above. Keeping in mind that the challenge of the quest is to run them at the levels they are designed for. Thus the challenge should be appropriate for characters of that level. It is not too much of an expectation to be able to have a reasonable chance of succeeding any quest at level on normal.

Hard difficulty should be a step up in difficulty much like it is now. It will certainly challenge the new players looking for an even more extreme at level play. It should even challenge some experienced players with less than optimal builds and gear. The success rate should be more in line with 75-90% with the oddball bad luck combined with poor decision making under the heat of battle, or poor planning of critical resources or tactics against certain foes and situations. So even an experienced player with a 28 pt build and no uber gear will be challenged, but not one who is a decked out 36+pt TR.

Elite difficulty is a level of extreme play. Designed to challenge even the most decked out TR, and may be even beyond the typical new player 28pt ability to succeed in solo play or even with a hireling. It will set a bar high enough to not allow any Tom, **** and Harry to breeze through AT LEVEL or one above. Elite difficulty should give an experienced player 28pt build and reasonably expected gear (not totally decked) less than 75% success rate. Yes, you should expect to fail sometimes, even if you managed to do all the right things. A TR should expect to fail roughly 0-10% and thus not a guarantee completion every time.

Group play ought to be encouraged, but not required for obvious and various reasons. However one should not be able to expect to complete quests on elite soloing your way through the game. Certainly not at level, with TR or 28pt build. Hard or normal? Sure! But elite should have that aura of fear and dread about them. It should also be accompanied with great shouts of joy when successful! It should be a remarkable achievement and one that would make any group (or soloist) proud of themselves.

I won't even comment much on epic, other than it should be again a step above elite which challenges the most experienced, and uber gear players in the game. It might be impossible for a mere 28pt build (even decked out) to have a chance to succeed with near perfect play, and use of critical resources. Okay, maybe a 25% chance to a TR 50-75% of success.

Obviously raids need to be based on a totally different standard than that of a soloist at level. It simply should not be possible to solo a full-fledged raid, but it should be possible to 6-man it on normal (with 28pt builds) and perhaps 9-man it on hard. Elite ought to require a full party of 12 for a reasonable chance of success for a well decked out 28pt build.

I believe that this will allow more raids to be run and reduce the ridiculous waiting time it takes to fill a full group of 12. Got 6 in your party and you only have 30-45 minutes to run the raid? No problem, go in on normal or hard depending on how much of a challenge you are looking for. Feel brave? 6-man it on elite then!

There is your challenge!

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[BattleCircle]

BAH

I had a reply all typed up and ready to post.

But of COURSE it took to long and I was auto logged out :mad:

Long and short.

Puging is a difficulty setting all its own.

[anatomyofaghost]

This.
+1


The difficulty in this game is schizophrenic. For example the Lordsmarch quest on elite are much harder than the GH quests on elite yet the GH quests are a higher level.

In the Flesh elite is harder than some epics, and definitely harder than Mindsunder elite.

I'd like to see stuff evened out and level appropriate, no more balancing a level 17 raid on people who have epic gear. A level 15 elite should be about as hard as a level 15 elite in a different pack.

Sentinels Elite mobs have DOUBLE the HP of old-school level 8 quests. Even it out. The "new" content feels right for close to level twinked people, it's hell on first-life non-twinked toons. Whichever you chose, please be consistent, level 8 elites mobs should be closer in HP to each other than they are in what we have now.

Regarding raids:

VoD and ToD: are fine right now, U11 elite was stupid hard, this is just difficult but not terrible.
Shroud: The blades do too much damage, this needs a nerf in all settings. I cannot believe your intention is for Elite Shroud to be harder than Elite ToD.
Titan: the drop-rate suck, please increase so we don't have to run this tediously annoying content over and over again.
Reaver: A level 14 raid shouldn't throw a 500 point spell at people, other than that it's fine.
Abbot: The HP on hard/elite are insane, cut them in half. And evasion? Really?
EChrono, eDragon, EQQ: are fine, leave them alone
LoB and MA: Have only done up to hard so I cannot comment on higher settings. Normal could be toned down a little so more people could learn the raid without it being so painful. One things though . . . FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE STOP MAKING NEW JUNK THAT REQUIRES KITING OF MOBS. It is stupid, it is lame, it is boring and un-fun. Any time I see something like LOB where it's "kite this, kite that, etc . . ." it makes God kill a kitten. It's just so stupid and "MMO," please stop this silliness.

Challenges feel about right, other than the to-hit on the red-named mobs is stupid high meaning a melee requires a healer to follow him around to fight these things. Thats okay, we only bring our casters into these any way.

I don't think I want you touching Epic quests as I don't trust you not to make things worse.

[freelove]

compared to all games I have played is to deal with the wierd jump/equipment change/spell - LAG

If I did not own all modules I would have stopped playing this game - but thankfully my work has not figured out how to block this site but already have done so with RIFT so I play away.

[Malidiction]

The problem with balancing the difficulty of the game now is the disparity between a skilled/veteran TR, in a high level guild with years of experience and the gear and resources to show for it and the new or casual player with very little resources and/or experience.

The disparity is multiplied many times over when you consider that the veteran may be TRing with others of the same caliber. Does anyone seriously expect to compare six tweaked veterans on an XP train with a PUG of inexperienced players?

How can the game be balanced with 4 levels of difficulty to be inclusive to our wide and diverse player base? Dungeon scaling helps. Hirelings help. That simply isn't enough.

Casual should be well, casual. The reward for a casual completion should be minimal.

Normal shouldn't be too difficult for a group of players. Success is NOT guaranteed, but is reasonably expected.

Hard should be challenging for normal players. TRs could be expected to dominate. Rewards should be better than on normal.

Elite should be difficult for non-veterans. The possibility of failure is real. A few well geared veterans would likely dominate in this scenario also as they do now.

The most logical solution is to create additional tiers of difficulty. Not just up the HP or AC of the mobs. Toss in a few extra traps (not necessarily the instant death kind) and de-buffs to keep things interesting. Call it 'Hero', 'Champion', of 'Legendary' difficulty or difficulties. Non-veteran players should expect certain death. Veterans should expect a real challenge and receive a very generous XP bonus as the reward. If you remember that xp trains are always watching the XP/minute metric, it isn't too hard to make the added difficulty worthwhile and less monotonous to multi-TR players by rewarding the players with generous XP and keeping in mind the added time the dungeon took to complete. You can always lure your TR-XP trains into the dungeon and difficulty of your choosing with a fat XP reward!

Raids should be scaled to the stated dungeon level not based on a party of capped toons. Raid loot rewards should be increased on higher difficulties. Period. Added difficulty setting(s) for raids could provide the challenge and reward the capped players seek while not scaling the normal/hard/elite dungeon difficulty settings out of the range of the average player at level.

[Silverleafeon]

I guess in my earlier post, I was wrong.

I mentioned not bringing in Epic levels due to concerns.

I suspect you the designers already discussed these concerns.

One was that with higher level toons, people would become bored with raids.
Anticipating this, you raised the difficulty of raid bosses.
A public outcry occured and duly so.
You adjusted accordingly.

The other was that there would not be enough xp available due to more raiding parties containing level 25 characters.
Anticipating this, you offered the bravery bonus and created several packs of higher level content.

[Silverleafeon]

Difficulty is super hard to perfect due to the fact that quality healers with good resources can make a huge difference.
Ask any good DM.

Having played a quality healer in DDO, I will mention that this situation is costy and stressful when overcoming very difficult conditions.

I will compliment you on the vast improvements to hirlings.
My completionist project is now playing barbarian and I am using hirlings in elite bravery runs successfully while enjoying the melee life.
Thank you so much!

I will compliment you on the year of the rabbit.
I consider it a success.

Regarding failure, it is not fun...I stopped healing many of the raids and am now starting to come back to them.
I play DDO to have fun.

[GermanicusMaximus]

No, the easiest path through the game is warforged arcane. Self healing, immunities, better insta-kills, direct damage, DoTs, and persistant AoEs than a divine, and more mobility.

But I would really be interested in a list of quests you think can be done easier by a melee than a divine. I'm not aware of any quest where you are better off taking a solo melee character than solo divine. If there are some, I'd be glad to know about it.

I prefer to play melees. In LotRO, I have a Guardian (tank) and a Captain (functionally like a warchanter). I'm considered pretty terrible at ranged classes in most games. And I find it vastly easier to blow through hard and elite content solo on my human sorcerer than any of my more numerous melees.

Though it does get a little ugly sometimes when I'm limping through on Echoes of Power and Wands to reach the next shrine. :P

At this point, we have had a fairly wide ranging discussion on the relative power of casters vs melee across the various levels of player skill.

In my post, I hope you noted that my toon has made some reasonable investments in healing, offensive casting and melee. He is a three dimensional character. Thats not unusual. Arcanes don't melee often (although I see a lot of them with woo woo sticks), but they do invest in both healing and offensive casting.

For a sizeable length of time, the easiest path through this game was as a melee toon. Casters, arcane and divine, were expected to buff them. There's a reason why the term Axer Package exists. Divines were expected to nannybot them.

Melees took advantage of this and crafted one dimensional toons. The melee forums are replete with threads arguing about how to increase DPS by less than 1%.

The game has changed. People are no longer content playing buffbots and healbots. The people crafting melee builds on the forums for the most part simply have not caught up. That is a problem in a game where the Turbine provided build paths are junk, and every new player quickly gets advised to visit the forums to find a "good" build.

If I spent all my energies designing and gearing my cleric to achieve that last fractional 1% of healing ability at the expense of everything else, I'd have a nannybot. If I didn't want a nannybot, that would be a failure on my part, not a lack of balance in the game.

Everyone who understands the dynamics of this game knows exactly where the "balance" discussion is headed. Melee want to keep their over focused, sub-optimal builds while enjoying the same benefits that casters have derived from creating well rounded builds.

As you have undoubtedly surmised, I am completely unmoved by the melee agenda.

However, if that's the direction that Turbine wants to head, I won't swim against the tide. I'll simply mothball my cleric, roll a melee toon, and play him by holding the left mouse button down and getting any healing, buffing, and offensive casting abilities that Turbine wants to layer on top.

Heck, we can all play the same build then, with microscopic variations that have no meaningful impact on the actual play of the game. Won't that be fun?

[Cyr]

So now that the devs (presuming they follow my advice) have adjusted the level of content to actually match it's difficulty level with higher difficulty levels being intentionally harder (but uniformly so across the same difficulty) and made quest design tweaks as needed now they need to address the other half of the picture...

Incentive Structures based upon difficulty

No Challenge = No Fun. A nice saying, but meaningless unless there are powerful reasons to challenge oneself. Everyone's skill and gear level is different and they should have the no brainer choice of choosing the hardest challenge that they can reasonably accomplish or even barely accomplish whenever possible.

We have already laid out that normal is for competent, but not geared or moderatly geared, but barely competent players. Hard is for competent moderatly geared or well geared less competent players. Elite is for competent well geared players. So now we need to make it so that those competent well geared players never set foot in normal again and those competent moderatly geared players are pushing themselves in elite or just getting their footing solid in hard and not doing normal instead for the easy completion.

A proper incentive structure leads to a steady upwards climb to challenges as you advance through the difficulty levels or through the levels at the same difficulty level.

The building principles of this incentive structure...


Higher difficulty runs of a quest grant loot that is superior and not just more plentiful then lower difficulty runs. This eliminates the it is easier to farm it out 3 times on normal then run it once on elite pattern that happens with most content in DDO when it comes to loot aquisition. LoB has an example of this type of idea in it. There should be zero reasons from a loot perspective to ever run a lower level version of the quest...NO drops that only come from lower difficulties unless they are strictly inferior versions of the same item to the one found in the higher difficulty.
Loot should NOT be based upon twinkage for future toons. It's ML and viability should be based upon the level of the quest being run. This keeps players advancing on the toon they are playing and not having the priority be in having a higher level alt farming out their gear for them. This is a lesser concern for vets, but one which most certainly is important for more casual or new players.
XP rewards for higher difficulty settings are DRASTICALLY better for higher difficulty settings. If a hard quest would take the same party two times the time as a normal run then the XP needs to be way more then two times as much. Average run time data for quests depending upon difficulty rating should be done to figure this out. A premium of 150% to 200% to the average xp/min per difficulty setting advanced should be sufficient so that the party above would be recieving we will say 3 times the xp of what the quest would bestow on the next lowest difficulty. Yes, this would mean that more competent better geared toons would level faster.
20th and other rewards end rewards based upon the difficulty ran. 20 runs of elite reaver should grant superior rewards to 20 runs of normal reaver.
Elite, hard, normal, solo completions listed in the favor menu AND able to be viewed by others when you are not anon. This is a solid quick way to see if someone might be a fit for your party.
Grouping is preferable to soloing. MMOs live and die by their community and DDO is no different. I have talked about the disincentives already in my past post now I will talk about the incentives that should be added. A 5% xp bump and a 5% bump in the odds for any drop (as in a 1% chance becomes 1%*5% + 1%= 1.05%) for every member of your party not including hirelings and yourself. The quest will not be easier, but hey you will get more rewards for doing it.
A little more detail on loot...

A possible system would use the barter box AI with different token types for different quests and difficulties. Not all quests should have seperate tokens since many should share the same type, but difficulty levels SHOULD have different tokens basically being superior versions of the lower ones... How this would work is you would run let's say von3 on elite and get an elite token of the vault of night. You could exchange this token (barter UI) to upgrade a few items or get a few hard tokens of the VON(which can be used to purchase lesser tiers of upgrades or get a few normal tokens of the VON). Normal tokens of the VON would purchase a base item (like the tier 1 alchemical or cove items), hard tokens would upgrade to tier 2, and elite would be the final upgrade. An elite token as mentioned could be downconverted for multiples of the lesser currencies, but the lesser tokens could not be upgraded. You could get these same tokens (perhaps in different numbers) from other quests in the VON series.

These tokens like all psuedo currencies would go into a new tradable only through shared bank currency exchange, zero weight, infinite slots and stack size space, called a characters wallet. Making spam new currencies a non-issue forever more.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Remove hirelings and I will be stuck waiting for groups for every quest from lvl 4 onwards.

No thank you!

Remove hirelings above lvl 10 and I will be stuck waiting for groups from lvl 12 onwards

No thank you!



I have to agree with this. I never use hirelings except for quests that require simultaneous pulling of switches or a similiar game mechanic, but thats because I really don't need a hireling. I do want the option to solo content in some reasonable manner.

Look at the server population. Its down, and to a large extent I think we no longer have the critical mass of players to support a "group only" design point.

I'd prefer to run in a group, but if thats not an option I want a reasonable opportunity to solo. Dungeon scaling is the mechanism that provides that.

If the only reasonable way to quest is in group, I'll log on, check for groups, and log off if there aren't any available in a short amount of time. That hardly seems like a good way to maintain overall interest in the game.

[Chai]

. . . FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY PLEASE STOP MAKING NEW JUNK THAT REQUIRES KITING OF MOBS. It is stupid, it is lame, it is boring and un-fun. Any time I see something like LOB where it's "kite this, kite that, etc . . ." it makes God kill a kitten. It's just so stupid and "MMO," please stop this silliness.

I hereby nominate this as suggestion of the year. The Nascar® strategy should not be the best practiced tactic needed to be mastered in order to beat content regularly.

Minions of demi gods and Generals of Shavarath should not be so ******** that they will run after the same person and do nothing else the entire time while everyone else pounds the snot out of the leaders they are sworn to protect.

[MadDruid]

The question of difficulty is basically can a specific quest be done at lvl by characters of that lvl with players with average lvl of ability with the resources that character can have.

certain quests can i.e. most of harbour, certain quests can't i.e Shroud which average players probebly need +2 lvls to have a chance and non TR super beings will rarely if ever complete elite dispite it's lvl being the same as some relatively easy amrath quests. This is not the only quest with this issue but the one that is most run.

I am not saying nerf these quests to make them uber easy but prehaps reevaluating the lvl of the quest for xp and loot purposes to make it more akin the the lvl of toon required to do it, would people be so upset about shroud difficulty if it was listed as a lvl 20 quest as it would then have to be compared to TOD which is similar (if not easier) difficulty. To class it in the same vein as enter the kobold (a vastly easier quest of equal lvl) even with a raid squad is nowhere near balanced.

another issue is the ability of high lvl guilds being able to super up low lvl toons by buffs. Prehaps limiting the effect certain guild buffs can have on characters would help the low lvl balance. i.e. resist shrine only give +10/20/30 depending on character lvl regardless of how powerful the guild is. 30 resist at lvl 15 might be a handy buff at lvl 3 it's elevation to godlike status.

I would suggest a game wide review of difficulty lvls of quests of equal lvl and as a easy first step change lvls of those overall too easy or too hard only then can you say this specific quest is vastly too hard/easy for the lvl range it is designed for.

[Ungood]

If the only reasonable way to quest is in group, I'll log on, check for groups, and log off if there aren't any available in a short amount of time. That hardly seems like a good way to maintain overall interest in the game.

*Gasp* I am finding myself agreeing with you.

[Aashrym]

So now that the devs (presuming they follow my advice) have adjusted the level of content to actually match it's difficulty level with higher difficulty levels being intentionally harder (but uniformly so across the same difficulty) and made quest design tweaks as needed now they need to address the other half of the picture...

Incentive Structures based upon difficulty

No Challenge = No Fun. A nice saying, but meaningless unless there are powerful reasons to challenge oneself. Everyone's skill and gear level is different and they should have the no brainer choice of choosing the hardest challenge that they can reasonably accomplish or even barely accomplish whenever possible.

We have already laid out that normal is for competent, but not geared or moderatly geared, but barely competent players. Hard is for competent moderatly geared or well geared less competent players. Elite is for competent well geared players. So now we need to make it so that those competent well geared players never set foot in normal again and those competent moderatly geared players are pushing themselves in elite or just getting their footing solid in hard and not doing normal instead for the easy completion.

A proper incentive structure leads to a steady upwards climb to challenges as you advance through the difficulty levels or through the levels at the same difficulty level.

The building principles of this incentive structure...


Higher difficulty runs of a quest grant loot that is superior and not just more plentiful then lower difficulty runs. This eliminates the it is easier to farm it out 3 times on normal then run it once on elite pattern that happens with most content in DDO when it comes to loot aquisition. LoB has an example of this type of idea in it. There should be zero reasons from a loot perspective to ever run a lower level version of the quest...NO drops that only come from lower difficulties unless they are strictly inferior versions of the same item to the one found in the higher difficulty.
Loot should NOT be based upon twinkage for future toons. It's ML and viability should be based upon the level of the quest being run. This keeps players advancing on the toon they are playing and not having the priority be in having a higher level alt farming out their gear for them. This is a lesser concern for vets, but one which most certainly is important for more casual or new players.
XP rewards for higher difficulty settings are DRASTICALLY better for higher difficulty settings. If a hard quest would take the same party two times the time as a normal run then the XP needs to be way more then two times as much. Average run time data for quests depending upon difficulty rating should be done to figure this out. A premium of 150% to 200% to the average xp/min per difficulty setting advanced should be sufficient so that the party above would be recieving we will say 3 times the xp of what the quest would bestow on the next lowest difficulty. Yes, this would mean that more competent better geared toons would level faster.
20th and other rewards end rewards based upon the difficulty ran. 20 runs of elite reaver should grant superior rewards to 20 runs of normal reaver.
Elite, hard, normal, solo completions listed in the favor menu AND able to be viewed by others when you are not anon. This is a solid quick way to see if someone might be a fit for your party.
Grouping is preferable to soloing. MMOs live and die by their community and DDO is no different. I have talked about the disincentives already in my past post now I will talk about the incentives that should be added. A 5% xp bump and a 5% bump in the odds for any drop (as in a 1% chance becomes 1%*5% + 1%= 1.05%) for every member of your party not including hirelings and yourself. The quest will not be easier, but hey you will get more rewards for doing it.
A little more detail on loot...

A possible system would use the barter box AI with different token types for different quests and difficulties. Not all quests should have seperate tokens since many should share the same type, but difficulty levels SHOULD have different tokens basically being superior versions of the lower ones... How this would work is you would run let's say von3 on elite and get an elite token of the vault of night. You could exchange this token (barter UI) to upgrade a few items or get a few hard tokens of the VON(which can be used to purchase lesser tiers of upgrades or get a few normal tokens of the VON). Normal tokens of the VON would purchase a base item (like the tier 1 alchemical or cove items), hard tokens would upgrade to tier 2, and elite would be the final upgrade. An elite token as mentioned could be downconverted for multiples of the lesser currencies, but the lesser tokens could not be upgraded. You could get these same tokens (perhaps in different numbers) from other quests in the VON series.

These tokens like all psuedo currencies would go into a new tradable only through shared bank currency exchange, zero weight, infinite slots and stack size space, called a characters wallet. Making spam new currencies a non-issue forever more.

I'm not sure I would agree on the better loot for higher difficulties. If players are say they want a challenge then a higher difficulty is meeting that need. If a player says he needs an incentive to play that higher level of difficulty then that player isn't looking for a challenge, he's looking for better rewards.

If the better rewards include gear not available at other difficulty settings that just increases the gap in acquiring gear at for new characters at the same level because elite is balanced toward players with the resources and we would just be giving those players with resources something outside of the reach of new players again. Inevitably that will lead to builds using the better gear, expectations on what players should and shouldn't have like we already see, and complaints from newer players that elitist players are shutting them out of content they need to gear up.

I can see higher level chests, increased drop rates, more experience from higher difficulties. I disagree that higher difficulties should grant far superior and different loot and this gets back to complaints that it is not challenging: If challenge is the concern better loot will just remove the challenge again and if a player wants a challenge a better challenge can be created without better loot.

[GermanicusMaximus]

*Gasp* I am finding myself agreeing with you.

Cool! I'm enjoying it! Hope the feeling is mutual :D

[Cyr]

I can see higher level chests, increased drop rates, more experience from higher difficulties. I disagree that higher difficulties should grant far superior and different loot and this gets back to complaints that it is not challenging: If challenge is the concern better loot will just remove the challenge again and if a player wants a challenge a better challenge can be created without better loot.

Better loot can obselete a challenge if it is stronger then the jump in challenge. If it is not then it merely decreases the challenge compared to doing it without that loot.

The law of diminishing returns should be practiced on increases in loot power as you increase in difficulty level.

In other words, the power jump on an item from normal to hard would be greater then the power jump from hard to elite even though hard to elite is much more of a jump in difficulty then normal to hard is.

Alchemical weapons actually do an okay job of this type of idea. The last stage is the weakest boost in power.

The whole idea here is that this is not about players demanding more challenges. It is about players actually enjoying being challenged as long as they feel it is rewarding and not a huge leap. Build it and they will come is a dumb design strategy. Make it worth running and they will come actually works. By merely speeding up aquisition of loot the developers end up shooting themselves in the foot. Their best players, who are also major drivers to get people really into the game, get what they want faster and end up playing less not more. What is worse, if you balance rewards for those players you end up by ripple effect end up balancing it for everyone.

Instead having better loot the higher the challenge level drop rates can be reasonable for both the hard core and the less hardcore. The less hardcore of course have their slightly lesser gear, but still respectable enough gear with the opportunity to actually run some of the harder stuff with the more elite players because they have not moved onto another game after farming out the new mod a month into it.

I can not imagine the less hardcore players response if shroud drop rates had been modified originally based upon the current higher difficulties drop more mats. Anyone who knows Turbine development knows that a new raid (which for them is a raid 1-2 years old) is expected to keep the power gamers busy for awhile. I would imagine that the cost of making a GS item would be double to triple the cost currently if that same loot decision was made today. Otherwise, all their hardcore gamers would have been long gone before the content crisis even got into it's first few months.

[ArcaneMelee]

I'm not sure I would agree on the better loot for higher difficulties. If players are say they want a challenge then a higher difficulty is meeting that need. If a player says he needs an incentive to play that higher level of difficulty then that player isn't looking for a challenge, he's looking for better rewards.

If the better rewards include gear not available at other difficulty settings that just increases the gap in acquiring gear at for new characters at the same level because elite is balanced toward players with the resources and we would just be giving those players with resources something outside of the reach of new players again. Inevitably that will lead to builds using the better gear, expectations on what players should and shouldn't have like we already see, and complaints from newer players that elitist players are shutting them out of content they need to gear up.

I can see higher level chests, increased drop rates, more experience from higher difficulties. I disagree that higher difficulties should grant far superior and different loot and this gets back to complaints that it is not challenging: If challenge is the concern better loot will just remove the challenge again and if a player wants a challenge a better challenge can be created without better loot.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, you're not going to get those who are addicted to the power-acceleration-curve to admit that they're trying to trivialize the challenges.

[Aashrym]

Better loot can obselete a challenge if it is stronger then the jump in challenge. If it is not then it merely decreases the challenge compared to doing it without that loot.

The law of diminishing returns should be practiced on increases in loot power as you increase in difficulty level.

In other words, the power jump on an item from normal to hard would be greater then the power jump from hard to elite even though hard to elite is much more of a jump in difficulty then normal to hard is.

Alchemical weapons actually do an okay job of this type of idea. The last stage is the weakest boost in power.

The whole idea here is that this is not about players demanding more challenges. It is about players actually enjoying being challenged as long as they feel it is rewarding and not a huge leap. Build it and they will come is a dumb design strategy. Make it worth running and they will come actually works. By merely speeding up aquisition of loot the developers end up shooting themselves in the foot. Their best players, who are also major drivers to get people really into the game, get what they want faster and end up playing less not more. What is worse, if you balance rewards for those players you end up by ripple effect end up balancing it for everyone.

Instead having better loot the higher the challenge level drop rates can be reasonable for both the hard core and the less hardcore. The less hardcore of course have their slightly lesser gear, but still respectable enough gear with the opportunity to actually run some of the harder stuff with the more elite players because they have not moved onto another game after farming out the new mod a month into it.

I can not imagine the less hardcore players response if shroud drop rates had been modified originally based upon the current higher difficulties drop more mats. Anyone who knows Turbine development knows that a new raid (which for them is a raid 1-2 years old) is expected to keep the power gamers busy for awhile. I would imagine that the cost of making a GS item would be double to triple the cost currently if that same loot decision was made today. Otherwise, all their hardcore gamers would have been long gone before the content crisis even got into it's first few months.

Higher level random drop loot, more chests, more experience, and higher drop rates on existing named loot should cover that tho. I wouldn't want DDO to be put into a situation where any unique items only available from elite difficulty become expected level of gear or highly sought after to max out a build ability because that type of thing really does force players to play elite for their builds instead of provide difficulty options. Elite would allow for a better build faster and normal would still allow for the acquirement of any necessary gear but at a slower pace if we just had drop rate adjustments.

IMO a player should be able to acquire the gear eventually by putting in the extra time grinding normal instead of being forced into elite if there is something he or she wants and that is the only option there.

[Aashrym]

I agree with this. Unfortunately, you're not going to get those who are addicted to the power-acceleration-curve to admit that they're trying to trivialize the challenges.

Cyr makes a lot of excellent posts. I wouldn't go into the power addict discussion on that. ;)

I could play devil's advocate a bit on the what if game and point out that if there are not enough players who want to play just for the challenge then who would the players who do play with? At least some incentive makes sense, just the degree might be open to discussion.

It's not like I have access to Turbine's information on who plays what or why so and so decided to quit. I'm not vain enough think I know everything. Just share my opinions and reasoning behind them. ;)

[Ungood]

Higher level random drop loot, more chests, more experience, and higher drop rates on existing named loot should cover that tho. I wouldn't want DDO to be put into a situation where any unique items only available from elite difficulty become expected level of gear or highly sought after to max out a build ability because that type of thing really does force players to play elite for their builds instead of provide difficulty options. Elite would allow for a better build faster and normal would still allow for the acquirement of any necessary gear but at a slower pace if we just had drop rate adjustments.

While I agree with you. Different gear on different Difficulties is a bad idea as then it would just force an "Elite" difficulty upon people to have that special gear, and that would in turn discourage players even more.

I personally feel that the last thing this game needs is yet another way to stonewall of discourage casual to moderate players.

I would like to see a revision to the loot system, but I feel that this is not the place for it.

[Aeolwind]

This may be a TL;DR response, but try to stick with me here.

I may be off the mark here, but generally what makes a quest hard isn't the difficulty selection you make at the beginning of a quest. It can have an impact, don't get me wrong. A first life 28pt character scrounging for gear on the brokers with limited resources has a significantly harder time with everything than someone who has a couple 20s and better access to equipment. What I'm getting at is take Threnal. Love it or hate it, Coyle is what makes that quest line a pain, and I'm OK with that, completely! It is just one series with some really nice rewards honestly. Difficulty shouldn't just be HP bags. Quest mechanics can be some of the most unforgiving taskmasters under the sun. How much more difficult would every quest become if you had to protect Coyle when you chose elite? (You can stop screaming, it won't happen.)

Perspective is what is required & some common sense. Normal should be geared to those first life folks, hard for the 'Veteran' status folks & elite for the face grinding TR folks. Also, keeping within that perspective, quests should be geared not towards who is running it, but who the quest was designed to be run by.

Shroud, Reaver & Abbot are great examples of this. Appears those elite raids are now more geared towards players with several epic weapons & items. While I feel a good bit of that is hyperbole, I can agree with the sentiment. A level 17 elite raid should be 'geared' for level 19 characters which will have no access to Epic items. The flagging mechanic alone for Abbot is reason enough for me not to run it much less the fact that I have no desire to grind my face on 20 grit sand paper that is 'farming' an epic.

Staying within that perspective still, a level 20 raid on elite should not 'require' the group to consist mainly of characters with epic items. It should require very well geared level 20 characters with solid builds & a modicum of consumables. A level 20 epic raid however should make those items a necessity in general.

Content should do what content is designed to do, not let power creep draw it along with it. If you need Shroud, Reaver & Abbot to creep up, give it epic setting, make your changes & unleash it. But for folks to get to those 'epic' content places, you need those stepping stones to be what they are, stepping stones. Yeah, they become trivial. So did Waterworks, STK & Co6. It happens.

[Ungood]

Their best players, who are also major drivers to get people really into the game

I wonder, since to make many of our claims, especially one like this, all we have is our limited scope of our social situation, I am left to ponder is this actually true?

Do the best players drive people to get into the game more or do they have exactly the opposite effect of driving people away, or perhaps is their effect so minimal that is borderlines little more then academia for the average player?

To use an example: Capone and OR can do 1 - 20 in as little as 27 hours or so, and do many quests in around 4 min. Does this:


Inspire others to try and shoot to get to that goal.
Intimidate or discourage them, to ask "Why should I bother? I'll never be that good" and while it may be true, in the fact they will never be that good, does it demoralize them.
A non issue, It simply become a matter of academia to them, "That's nice" IE: Yes this quest can be done in 4 min, but for us mortal folks it takes 30.

Now while we may all have our different views on how we think this would affect the vastness of the DDO population, and to be fair, their may be different varying levels of each, IE: "I would like to be that good, but realize such things are beyond my skill"

We each may hold true to our views of that as well, based on our limited sampling of the games population.

But really, again, this brings to me to return to what Kindoki (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4233057&postcount=446) said, that for Game Difficulty to become balanced at all, Turbine really needs to reassess and make a personal or public statement about who they are trying to target with this game, and design (or redesign) their quests to hit this demographic.

Yes, there will be always be people who fall below the mark and people who fall above it. And while they may derive fun from the game in either case, they will need to find their fun within the game.

[magnefique]

The problem with balancing the difficulty of the game now is the disparity between a skilled/veteran TR, in a high level guild with years of experience and the gear and resources to show for it and the new or casual player with very little resources and/or experience.

The disparity is multiplied many times over when you consider that the veteran may be TRing with others of the same caliber. Does anyone seriously expect to compare six tweaked veterans on an XP train with a PUG of inexperienced players?

How can the game be balanced with 4 levels of difficulty to be inclusive to our wide and diverse player base? Dungeon scaling helps. Hirelings help. That simply isn't enough.

Casual should be well, casual. The reward for a casual completion should be minimal.

Normal shouldn't be too difficult for a group of players. Success is NOT guaranteed, but is reasonably expected.

Hard should be challenging for normal players. TRs could be expected to dominate. Rewards should be better than on normal.

Elite should be difficult for non-veterans. The possibility of failure is real. A few well geared veterans would likely dominate in this scenario also as they do now.

The most logical solution is to create additional tiers of difficulty. Not just up the HP or AC of the mobs. Toss in a few extra traps (not necessarily the instant death kind) and de-buffs to keep things interesting. Call it 'Hero', 'Champion', of 'Legendary' difficulty or difficulties. Non-veteran players should expect certain death. Veterans should expect a real challenge and receive a very generous XP bonus as the reward. If you remember that xp trains are always watching the XP/minute metric, it isn't too hard to make the added difficulty worthwhile and less monotonous to multi-TR players by rewarding the players with generous XP and keeping in mind the added time the dungeon took to complete. You can always lure your TR-XP trains into the dungeon and difficulty of your choosing with a fat XP reward!

Raids should be scaled to the stated dungeon level not based on a party of capped toons. Raid loot rewards should be increased on higher difficulties. Period. Added difficulty setting(s) for raids could provide the challenge and reward the capped players seek while not scaling the normal/hard/elite dungeon difficulty settings out of the range of the average player at level.

Been playing a few months and it is a real problem what you are saying here. Playing on a first life character ( wizzy ) managing spell points is critical in every dungeon, it puts quite a bit of pressure on you ( which i like ) to think about how to approach things...

That said, I don't know how you can possibly balance things ( and continue to draw new players ) with the TRs.. People TRing so many times puts them at such a higher level than the new player which should be the way it is, however if you start adding content for TRx5 that newer players will never see, I think you have a problem..

Perhaps as the quote above suggests, more difficulty levels are needed ?

[GoRinNoSho]

Had a nice descriptive post describing several of the flaws, but evidently I am too wordy for the forum session timeout and it went to the bit bucket. That might be another avenue where a lot of community feedback is lost.

Right now IMO, it isn't a question of difficulty. The problem is the gameplay has become 1 dimensional. Simply I have more hp can deal more dps than monster so I win.

Less focus on defensive play/strategies has basically changed this to a zerg or exploit-based game. New players need to focus on being over 9000 or left behind. For the emerging player that doesn't know better you have a veteran community that tells them they need to re-roll, their effort was wasted since they didn't follow a pre-planned build that they need to be pouring over the forums/wikis for.

If the game becomes more tedious than what the player is attempting to escape from (work, school, etc.) then the game loses its luster quickly. Add to that the gateway of numerous "You must be this awesome to quest with me." posts that fill the lfms.

IMO, more depth into good/bad buffs and more explanation on how to use/counter them. Of course the fact that bad buffs simply don't work on purples/reds in itself brings the system back to a straight numbers game.

Spell pass and epic items have exacerbated this issue. Cannith crafting cut a steady supply of items to newer players, so that creates a large rift between the groups. The solution has been to just pile on more mandatory grouping situations which will only further the issue because people that want to play with friends or casual players will be forced to play with people that don't share that idea.

It has become a "You can play any type of character, but to play with the in crowd you need to kiss the ring or only be a specific pre-generated build off of the forums/wiki."

Ex. Fix things that encourage more rounded players. Crushing despair should be countered by protection from evil since it is a negative mind affecting spell, but it sure doesn't seem to. ;)

The weakness of the fully epic geared characters is that they lack certain basic protections that the char required in early or mid levels. Instead of exploiting that weakness as an example, the game is simply focused on generating higher numbers between player and monster.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I havent read any of the posts, dont need to.

This game isnt unbalanced?

This game is too hard?

This game is nerfed!

Since when SHOULD a person be able to solo a raid!
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=356117

Even w/ scaling, LOGIC tells me NO one should be able to do this.

As gratifying as doing a RAID solo is. It is a clear example of how bad things are out of control & balance.

If we should be able to solo raids, then why have an mmo? Just turn this into a console game!

There's your answer Madfloyd. Solo a raid Pffttt:mad:

[sweez]

I havent read any of the posts, dont need to.

This game isnt unbalanced?

This game is too hard?

This game is nerfed!

Since when SHOULD a person be able to solo a raid!
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=356117

Even w/ scaling, LOGIC tells me NO one should be able to do this.

As gratifying as doing a RAID solo is. It is a clear example of how bad things are out of control & balance.

If we should be able to solo raids, then why have an mmo? Just turn this into a console game!

There's your answer Madfloyd. Solo a raid Pffttt:mad:

Um, so this game is unbalanced because some people can solo a raid? Is running also unbalanced because some people can run 100 meters in under 10 seconds?

I can guarantee you that if you just randomly picked a lvl 20 from the who list and asked him to solo vod, there's 95% chance they'd never make it to the actual quest.

[slimkj]

Um, so this game is unbalanced because some people can solo a raid? Is running also unbalanced because some people can run 100 meters in under 10 seconds?

I can guarantee you that if you just randomly picked a lvl 20 from the who list and asked him to solo vod, there's 95% chance they'd never make it to the actual quest.
Yep. Soloing raids like that usually takes planning, sometimes gear farming, quest knowledge, game knowledge, preparation, relevant consumables, etc. Using one (or more) person's achievement is not a good barometer for need for balance.

[Kindoki]

Yep. Soloing raids like that usually takes planning, sometimes gear farming, quest knowledge, game knowledge, preparation, relevant consumables, etc. Using one (or more) person's achievement is not a good barometer for need for balance.

I agree with this statement. And I go back to my original statement - which is for Turbine to tell the player base what your intent is; and then fulfill that intent. Those who like it will stay, those who don't, won't.

Just like saying - "we put PvP in the game, but that's not our focus". Say - "we have some stuff to keep the player with 20 lv20 fully epic'd characters interested, but that's not really our goal".

Unfortunately, people with a day job (like devs), and a life outside of that job (hahaha), are never going to be able to keep up with the person who can play a video game for 20+ hours/wk, let alone those who are online for 40+hours/wk. Those players just need to recognize that they need to play a few games. The devs need to realize that they can't build for those people, even if those people are the biggest complainers/forumites.

Lastly, Devs, not players, need to decide what is 'normal'. I ran across an article that I think is appropriate to this discussion.... http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/222501?cm_mmc=Market-_-Outbrain-_-NA-_-NA

The problem hasn't been enough feedback from the players to Turbine. The problem has been a lack of communication from Turbine to the players. So, while I appreciate the chance to give advice, what I'd most prefer is for Turbine to make a decision, implement it well, and communicate it fully, whether it's regarding 'difficulty', the Shroud, or otherwise.

[der_kluge]

I guess it depends on the intention. Is the intention to make the game more overall pug friendly?

My capped, Tr'd FvS has over 3,000 favor. She's ran most quests on elite. But there are a couple dozen that, to-date, she still can't do on elite. Mostly, she pugs. So, I think it's safe to say that the ones that she has on elite, are probably ok.

The rest, might need some tweaking.

The Titan Awakes
To date, after over two years of playing, I have completed the Titan Raid exactly ONE time. Failed it two other times.

Ascenscion Chamber
I have probably ran this 15 times. I have ZERO completions.

The Shroud
I don't see people offering this up for 16s and 17s anymore. Which isn't fair. The blades do too much damage. If my 500 hit point bardbarian is tanking Harry in point 4, if I don't leave early enough, I'm insta-killed. That's just insane. I've tried and failed elite (with good groups, I might add), a couple of times. I saw an "all-caster" elite Shroud LFM up yesterday. Please don't turn this into eChrono. This shouldn't be as hard as an epic!

HoX and VoD
I've done these on hard, and the challenge felt good. Never done them on elite. I imagine the challenge level there would be on par with the level of those quests, though. So, these seem OK.

In the Flesh
On elite, the reaver's are just way too nasty.

Lord of Blades
This quest is just stupid. I've absolutely zero desire to run it again. It is not puggable, IMHO.

Gianthold Tor
I've never done this on elite. I would imagine it's quite insane. Especially for the quest level.

ToD
I've only ever ran this on normal. I can't imagine why anyone would be glutton for punishment enough to do it on elite. Nor can I imagine how ridiculously difficult that would be. ToD elite should also probably not be harder than an epic quest.


Drop rates:
While we're on the topic of difficulty, let's talk drop rates.
ToD boot parts are just WAY too rare. Some pieces are a bit more common than others, but overall, the process is like having a root canal. Those quests are pain enough without having to run them a hundred times. I would have never flagged for ToD if my guild didn't give me the parts I needed. And they only acquired those because certain casters in my guild are awesome enough (and patient enough) to solo the quests in order to get the parts.

From a product perspective, if you sell the Shavarath pack, how unfair is it to make the customer farm quests a hundred times before they can enjoy the -entire- pack?

Planar shards should drop in Devil Assault.

[underpants]

Stop changing things that aren't broken (abbot HP, shroud etc . . .) Don't mess with the old develop new also the game needs another big splash to bring some of the excitement backs and I'm not talking about escorting the kolbolds around some dangerous mine.

The new raids are unfair to healers and pots are way to expensive as soon as I saw the Reports I TR'd my cleric. Also with hirelings there is not as much need for a healer until you get to the end game then everyone is like what happened to all the clerics we didn't need at the lower levels.

Quit expecting players to have 400+ HP to do anything above Hard at the higher levels to have 400 HP you have to sacrifice some of the more nifty enhancements of the class / race or have some great gear.

let TR's Keep there crafting level (you could charge for this)

[jkm]

Some points here:


Stop changing things that aren't broken (abbot HP, shroud etc . . .) Don't mess with the old develop new also the game needs another big splash to bring some of the excitement backs and I'm not talking about escorting the kolbolds around some dangerous mine.

There is nothing wrong with going back and balancing content if completion % exceed the thresholds that they set. I play World of Tanks and they make balancing passes on pretty much every tank every release.



The new raids are unfair to healers and pots are way to expensive as soon as I saw the Reports I TR'd my cleric. Also with hirelings there is not as much need for a healer until you get to the end game then everyone is like what happened to all the clerics we didn't need at the lower levels.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier. The biggest issue in this game is the primary way that devs make the game harder is by increasing incoming damage. The problem is that while on the surface it seems as if this impacts the player taking damage in reality a lot of players view this as the hjeelers domain to fix. It isn't as bad in 6 man groups as 12 man, but most players view a blue bar as a cheap source of CSW pots.

Like I said before, the WORST thing that they ever did was take out permanent damage to items. It keeps a permanent gulf between the haves and have nots with regard to gear. It also eliminates a method by which you can make quests more difficult (IE mobs cause extra equipment wear) that WOULD affect that person and not the healer.



Quit expecting players to have 400+ HP to do anything above Hard at the higher levels to have 400 HP you have to sacrifice some of the more nifty enhancements of the class / race or have some great gear.

Hit points as a system are broken beyond belief. Because there is no penalty for min/maxing, casters have more hit points than a d6/d8 melee class (because they can max con with no drawbacks, whereas the d6/d8 classes have other things they need to spend points on). Seriously, 550-600 hit points isn't out of the realm of possibility for Wizzies and Sorcs. Madfloyd and Co need to figure out a way to recapture the spirit of the d20 rules and get some balance back into surviveability.



let TR's Keep there crafting level (you could charge for this)

They already do this

[Feithlin]

I didn't read all the posts so maybe I'll repeat some things that have already been said.
I see different problematics associated with difficulty:

* The difficulty highly depends on the characters doing the quest: knowing a quest well, being a 32-points (or even more a TR1 or a TR2) character, having eaten tomes, having a good equipment (again, many TRs will have GS items at mid level), having a good build (many new players will make errors on their 1st toon), pertaining to a strong guild (ship buffs are very strong, especially at lower levels), and of course having strong playing skills, which certainly count, but not as much as some ppl think.
With such a large spectrum, it's hard to settle difficulty reliably, i.e. for everyone.

* Some associate difficulty with their desire for more grouping, but it's only a part of the problem. It's not because a quest is difficult that ppl will want to group for it. Look at Amrath quests: they're hard (especially on elite), but you almost never see LFMs for more than norm difficulty, because it's hard and ppl prefer doing it in guild/channel runs. Having more groups implies setting the difficulty to the vast majority of players, which means that it will probably feel a lot easier for more experienced characters/players.
But do we really want more grouping? For my part, for example, most often I don't know how much time I can stay and may have to drop at any moment. I don't want to have to group, because that would affect the group if I leave in the middle of a quest. I think there are many other players in my situation. And when I'm more confident about the time I have, I simply prefer to do raids with my guild. Lastly, if I (or anyone) want a group, I just put LFM. It usually fills very quickly (last I did was a proof is in the poison hard at level, not a popular quest and not on elite for streak, and it filled in a few minutes) if you don't wait for the 'perfect party' or for a healer. All characters have a way to heal themselves, be it with a hireling.

This was on the player part. On the quest's part now, what affects difficulty?
* The requirement for multiple players: TBH, I don't like it much. When you can go it with a hireling, it's fine, but when you need a full group (or some specific abilities), it's very annoying. And it doesn't make the quest more present in LFMs.
IMO, this kind of quest conception should be avoided.

* The requirement for a specific class: I mean a hard requirement. I feel it's fine when you can find a way to resolve the problem without the class. This can be done with most traps (however, good luck doing crucible elite without evasion and good reflexes).
I'm not totally opposed to favoring some kind of builds in some specific quests, but the presence of said class should give a bonus instead of being required. Some examples: a locked door or a trapped passage could allow to skip a part of the quest (lair of summoning for example).

* The HP/to-hit/damage of the mobs, obviously. There should be more coherence between quests though. Quest designers should also take available AC at that level into account imo. They should also take into account the impact on various class types (a 1000 hp monster is the same as a 500 hp monster for a wizard: a fod).

* The special attacks used by the mobs. This is imo the single most important feature making some quests more difficult than others. Some monsters are really nasty (BH, mummies, etc.) but that's ok. This is part of the game.
I only have some problem with self healing: it should be tuned down on lower difficulties (at least casual and norm), otherwise it can become impossible to succeed for a moderate dps character (remember: the basis is the Joe Citizen DDO player).
It's also ok if DDO store gives access to some tools making it easier to deal with dangerous monsters. I like when Turbine gains money, as it allows me to play for free :)

What's the reward of difficulty?
Let's face it, many forumites say they want a more difficult game, but will still go norm if harder difficulties don't give them more reward.
The reason to do a quest at a higher difficulty comes from the reward. Turbine made a very good thing with the change to 1st completion bonus and streak. That makes running quests on higher difficulties a lot more appealing.
But this doesn't work very well for caped characters obviously. The reward for raids, for example, should be more focused on loot. IMO, all the loot should be accessible at any difficulty, but you should require a lot more norm runs than elite runs. The % of getting a raid item and/or the number of ingredients should follow this proportion imo:
* Normal: Reference.
* Hard: Reference x 2.
* Elite: Reference x 3.
* Epic: Reference x 4.
So if, for example, you have 5% of getting a raid item on norm, you should have 10% on hard and 20% on elite.
Another way to do things would be to let loot as it is, but to change the number of completions depending on the difficulty: normal counts as a completion, hard as 2, elite as 3, and epic as 4.

[GlorifyQuC]

The game is overwhelmingly easy from my perspective. There are just a lot of little things that make the game much easier than it should be. Most notably is the guild ship buffs, as it turns just about every quest into a walk in the park provided you have a full team of players.

The biggest problem I have with ship buffs is players who don't earn them can use them, it's not that they're overpowered(they are), it's because everyone can use them. In terms of a 28 point build and a 1st TR(34pt build), the TR'd character could be considered overpowered. But, naturally, they had to work quite a bit to get to that point. This isn't how ship buffs work. Get an invite, get full benefits. I feel like there needs to be some restriction that prevents players from simply receiving invites and getting the buffs, like a personal guild experience bar that unlocks them or something.

Finding decent players is actually hard. And it's not even that, finding a composition to complete a quest(assuming you need an arcane for CC, a healer, a trap finding class, and the rest is fluff) is pretty challenging especially since healing has absolutely no depth to it.

Other than that, the only actual difficult thing about this game from what I've seen so far are traps on elite. You can't really survive them, without someone who can disarm them you can't pass them, and while I see a decent amount of traps that can be run through without theoretically getting hit, the lag in game makes that impossible.

[Dinglebarry]

Lag & Raid changes have become unfriendly to melee classes with a naturally lower HP die:
- blades in shroud
- reaver disintegrate
It is unfortunate that lower HP die melee class need to focus on a splash class, feats, equipment and enhancements to meet the magic numbers that group leaders are requiring. It's easy to say scale down normal/hard and make elite or epic the killers. BUT, this just moves the problem to a higher difficulty level, not fixing a thing.


There is an imbalance in the game when it comes to Raids vs 6-man quests.

This has come about due to the implemented dungeon scaling:
Positives:
+ solo friendly
+ no need to wait for groups to fill to start the quest
Negatives:
- Players have become selfish, buffing, teamwork
- Players get a shock when they enter a raid
- self sufficient classes don't see the need to help those LFMs as they can do the job themselves.

The spirit of being a party and helping each other is gone compared to how the game initially was created.
I'm torn between the ease of soloing vs the waiting time to get a group going in the old days (critical when you don't have that time to wait).

[karl_k0ch]

To my experience, the gravest difficulty and the most important thing to finish a quest is knowledge.
If you don't know what's going to happen, where to go, and which mobs are dangerous, every quest can be challenging. The more you know, the less challenging it becomes.

I've found it much easier to solo quests (up to level 8, that is so far) on a Sorcerer than on a Rogue or Bard, even though the latter were 32pointers with some twink gear.

[Fomori]

The problem with your question MadFloyd is that difficulty is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. Each person's individual setup and play stlye make certain quests more/less difficult. Thus what is easy for one is not so easy for another.

Because of that you just have to set the bar somewhere and be done. The trick is setting it right, not too high and not too low. What should NOT be done is up the bar because of power creep. I think that if you TR or grind out gear (greensteel and/or epics) that you should be "rewarded" with the game being easier for you.

One thing that I have noticed since I started playing the game back in 2006 is that the newer content does seem to be creeping closer and closer to the WoW/EQ2 model of "healer required". DDO is great in that "any 6" can complete almost any content. Having healing capable classes makes it faster and easier! That is the role they should play, or in fact any class should play. Thus the "casters make it easier" argument is pointless because that is, in fact, what they are designed to do...

Inflated HP and inflated damage output is not fun, its just micromanaging red bars. If you want to break the game down to the basics, sure its always about that, but in most quests there is usually a way to retreat... collect thoughts... prep... and go back into the fray. The quests where its micromanage or wipe, suck! If mobs have the potential for a surge of high damage, that is great. If they do excessive damage 100% time, then its boring. Ogres are a prime example of that. They are fine but you never know when a triple strike is coming. Thus they are dangerous but manageable.

Another point I want to make is about raids. MMO's seriously need a new mechanic. "Raids" were an cool idea when they first came out. Now they are overused. Too many people associate them with elite content and they only really matter in community epeen. In DDO they are simply; 12 man quests, slightly harder base, better loot, lockout timer. DDO should do away with the moniker and just give those special abilities to any quest that deserves them.

I think that ALL, yes ALL, quests in DDO should have a player scalable option to 12 man, perhaps even 18 man. But the base should be 6 man. Each bump of 6 players adds new things to each quest. This would be one way to make content harder and give twinked out players something of challenge to short man them. Also I think that all loot should be evaluated and quests that give solid named loot should also be put in lockout timers, not just raids. Since the point of locking out is the stop continuous farming of solid gear why stop with just your "raids".

[Dagolar]

What are your thoughts on the overall difficulty of DDO? Sure, we offer difficulty choices, but do you find yourself in a postion where even Normal difficulty feels too much like hard?

If so, do you associate this with a given level in the game (e.g. 10+) or do you think there is just too much inconsistency throughout?

What's the right balance of challenge vs success for YOU? Do you expect to never fail when playing Normal - or would that simply bore you?

I'm raising this subject for a few reasons. I think a lot of people expect that when it comes to an MMO, if you put time in you must get progress/reward out of it - and that failure is just plain bad. Spending 45 minutes into a quest only to fail can be very frustrating.

We have been accused (and perhaps there's truth to this) that we've been balancing the game for the uber-player. Are you finding this to be the case? It seems like a couple years ago the salient message from the community was 'enough with the easy button already!'

Would love to know your thoughts on this. Feel free to reference specific quests.

There is catering to the uberplayer, but this seems to be more due to a stagnation at high levels. Adding in Epic Levels/Questing that is DESIGNED for uber-play/post-gearing-up would fix a lot of it; Especially since, if someone can't cut it, they have the option available to TR and try again; Or just ignore it altogether if they don't care for it.
The only problem would be, as always, balancing..

As far as overall difficulty..
Challenges are the most erratic, and seem to scale rather..peculiar.
As for other quests.. well, we've gotten used to the unreliable difficulty/base quest levels, widely varying DCs at similar levels, and so forth. It's a mess, but it adds a good variety to what would otherwise be a predictable and bland progression. So, as to overall difficulty? No, the quests are fine*, and any gross problems will ever be well noted in due time..

*[Though the wide variance in epic level difficulties between packs, that in no way correspond [and, perhaps, oppositionally correspond] to the quality of the items they grant- that's a bit off. But that may just tie in to..]

But items, classes; They could use a solid balancing out, and then not being touched again [until game mechanic changes force the need].

While we're on the topic of balancing..
The game would do quite well with more solo quests across the level ranges. Not even just for us players that enjoy solo questing, but so as to give people a focus during 'off-times', outside of Slayers.

The quests wouldn't even need to give quality items.. Just have, say, 15 solo quests added, and have a selectable one-time character reward [Along the quality and nature of Draconic Vitality, list of 5 or so to choose from] for 10 solo completions. Those that appreciate soloing can do all of them for favor, those that are ambivalent or apathetic can do the quests they enjoy most, and those that don't care for soloing won't feel any overwhelming compunction to run them.

Regardless of the merits or attraction of that particular design, more solo quests of any sort would be appreciated.

[umeannothing]

While we're on the topic of balancing..
The game would do quite well with more solo quests across the level ranges. Not even just for us players that enjoy solo questing, but so as to give people a focus during 'off-times', outside of Slayers.

The quests wouldn't even need to give quality items.. Just have, say, 15 solo quests added, and have a selectable one-time character reward [Along the quality and nature of Draconic Vitality, list of 5 or so to choose from] for 10 solo completions. Those that appreciate soloing can do all of them for favor, those that are ambivalent or apathetic can do the quests they enjoy most, and those that don't care for soloing won't feel any overwhelming compunction to run them.

Regardless of the merits or attraction of that particular design, more solo quests of any sort would be appreciated.

This.^^^^^^^^ And many times over.....^^^^^^^This. I would love to group. In fact, I often start my OWN LFM for quests I have solo'd so many times I know them inside and out and I am comfortable leading the group, explaining to new players what to expect, the content, etc. etc.

But I have never been able to solo any level 18+ content on my melee characters at L20 (first lifer's). This is not so bad, but I also have issues soling L14 content on my L20 melees. I LOVE playing a Kensai III fighter. This is my preferred build for DDO. I spent my first 14 months playing this game finding a class I could solo things so I could LEARN the game, just to get 2 of them to end game and find out that I had no chance of a group. Not even a group so I could so much as top off favor so I could get some SF pots and try soloing content with those in an attempt to LEARN the content so I do not look like/sound like a complete inept moron once I get into the content with a full group.


For crying out loud, I have problems solo'ing L12 content on normal at level. There is a serious flaw in the issue of power creep and content relevant to absorb said powercreep anymore. Add more HP/fort to raid bosses. Toss in/"fix" some blades so that even L25 geared players are insta/barely a moment to live killed.


If you guys at Turbine really want tro make things harder, then honestly, you need to make FRESH/NEW harder content for the players that have already grown out of the L20 content.

MA/LoB is a good start, but you also ruined that start by ?nerfing/un-nerfing? raids that are L16 to make them L21+. It makes no sense.

And then, when a person takes into account that several classes do not even have finished PrE's?Look, I played WOW right up until I started playing this game. Any Turbine rep can look at my account/ IP addy and see my old forum account I ASKED to have banned (Infract me for that, I dare you, I honestly dare you to infract me Turbine for my voluntary request to ban my old forum account, especially since I am unable to post from it, as per forum guidelines) That parenthesis out of the way, I played WoW and you know what? Honestly? For all the immature kids in chat, the one thing WoW got right, and DDO seems to just be flustered over, is that EVERY. SINGLE. CLASS. has 3 separate tiers to choose from for a set of talents (We call them prestige enhancements on DDO)


Seriously, some of the things I have seen on WoW in just 5 or so hours of playing yesterday/ this morning.....hmmmm......If only WoW had the player base that DDO has right now. Or lets just flip that........If only DDO payed as much attention to what the player base is asking for as WOW.........

Yup, I always have a complaint that is for sure, I admit it. I certainly do have a complaint when I see the one brightest star in the sky slowly getting dimmer and making it harder for me to stay focused on it. That star was you DDO. WAS you, and is in a slow death of what DDO could have been.


I sure was impressed with 3 full tiers of talent (PrE) on both my Paladin and my Death Knight on WoW. I forgot the years I spent building them, was kind of fun running around one shotting mobs because I out leveled them.

Or better put, I earned the right to call the content easy there, I earned the gear (even only pathetic level 80 gear) I did my time, by all rights I should be allowed to waltz through the content with accordian music, there is no exception that makes it o.k. to make content harder for the next generation, just because I paid my dues to make the content easy. (Take an hint here Turbine, just take a hint and create power creep appropriate content.)

Well, I am done complaining for a few hours, it is 4:30 am here, and I really want to curl up next to my wife now. I may complain a lot, but I at least complain about valid issues.

G'night community posters, and thank you MadFloyd, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for allowing me a chance to voice my concerns. In essence, you have ruined lower level gameplay/grouping just to justify your allowance of major power creep. It really ruined the game for more solo players than you can possibly fathom.

[mystafyi]

The game would do quite well with more solo quests across the level ranges.

All quests can be currently solo'd on every difficulty, with every class. just saying ;) btw the proof is on the forums.

[Targonis]

The issue with pure melees having a more difficult time soloing is something of a given, and that is what a hireling is for in those cases. Level 18-20 content on the other hand can get a bit tricky, but that is what happens in the "end game". Casual difficulty is there for just that sort of situation, but at levels beyond 17, it SHOULD be seen as more difficult.

The balance issue is really about armor class and hit points and damage output being so out of balance, that if you don't have something VERY high, AC doesn't seem to mean very much, since it always seems to be an all or nothing, and when you are getting hit for 100+ damage, it really does feel like all or nothing when solo. This also goes back to spell damage and how things play out for class balance.

I feel that there are four classes that have it TOUGH in DDO when it comes to soloing: a pure rogue, a fighter, a barbarian, and a cleric. All four of these as pure classes, can handle themselves decently, but healing is needed for three of these, and at higher levels, or with multiple enemies, it can be tough. Clerics generally don't have the damage output, so while they can be soloable, it's going to be slow, or you have battle cleric builds, and then the players don't focus as much on party play.

From my own perspective, I love the Sorcerer, and the Artificer for pure fun, but sorcs are not ALWAYS the easiest to solo with in the low to mid level game. Artificers...can't beat self healing plus decent damage output, and an included tank.



This.^^^^^^^^ And many times over.....^^^^^^^This. I would love to group. In fact, I often start my OWN LFM for quests I have solo'd so many times I know them inside and out and I am comfortable leading the group, explaining to new players what to expect, the content, etc. etc.

But I have never been able to solo any level 18+ content on my melee characters at L20 (first lifer's). This is not so bad, but I also have issues soling L14 content on my L20 melees. I LOVE playing a Kensai III fighter. This is my preferred build for DDO. I spent my first 14 months playing this game finding a class I could solo things so I could LEARN the game, just to get 2 of them to end game and find out that I had no chance of a group. Not even a group so I could so much as top off favor so I could get some SF pots and try soloing content with those in an attempt to LEARN the content so I do not look like/sound like a complete inept moron once I get into the content with a full group.


For crying out loud, I have problems solo'ing L12 content on normal at level. There is a serious flaw in the issue of power creep and content relevant to absorb said powercreep anymore. Add more HP/fort to raid bosses. Toss in/"fix" some blades so that even L25 geared players are insta/barely a moment to live killed.


If you guys at Turbine really want tro make things harder, then honestly, you need to make FRESH/NEW harder content for the players that have already grown out of the L20 content.

MA/LoB is a good start, but you also ruined that start by ?nerfing/un-nerfing? raids that are L16 to make them L21+. It makes no sense.

And then, when a person takes into account that several classes do not even have finished PrE's?Look, I played WOW right up until I started playing this game. Any Turbine rep can look at my account/ IP addy and see my old forum account I ASKED to have banned (Infract me for that, I dare you, I honestly dare you to infract me Turbine for my voluntary request to ban my old forum account, especially since I am unable to post from it, as per forum guidelines) That parenthesis out of the way, I played WoW and you know what? Honestly? For all the immature kids in chat, the one thing WoW got right, and DDO seems to just be flustered over, is that EVERY. SINGLE. CLASS. has 3 separate tiers to choose from for a set of talents (We call them prestige enhancements on DDO)


Seriously, some of the things I have seen on WoW in just 5 or so hours of playing yesterday/ this morning.....hmmmm......If only WoW had the player base that DDO has right now. Or lets just flip that........If only DDO payed as much attention to what the player base is asking for as WOW.........

Yup, I always have a complaint that is for sure, I admit it. I certainly do have a complaint when I see the one brightest star in the sky slowly getting dimmer and making it harder for me to stay focused on it. That star was you DDO. WAS you, and is in a slow death of what DDO could have been.


I sure was impressed with 3 full tiers of talent (PrE) on both my Paladin and my Death Knight on WoW. I forgot the years I spent building them, was kind of fun running around one shotting mobs because I out leveled them.

Or better put, I earned the right to call the content easy there, I earned the gear (even only pathetic level 80 gear) I did my time, by all rights I should be allowed to waltz through the content with accordian music, there is no exception that makes it o.k. to make content harder for the next generation, just because I paid my dues to make the content easy. (Take an hint here Turbine, just take a hint and create power creep appropriate content.)

Well, I am done complaining for a few hours, it is 4:30 am here, and I really want to curl up next to my wife now. I may complain a lot, but I at least complain about valid issues.

G'night community posters, and thank you MadFloyd, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for allowing me a chance to voice my concerns. In essence, you have ruined lower level gameplay/grouping just to justify your allowance of major power creep. It really ruined the game for more solo players than you can possibly fathom.

[Targonis]

All quests can be currently solo'd on every difficulty, with every class. just saying ;) btw the proof is on the forums.

Just because people who are willing to buy stuff off the DDO store can solo stuff with all classes does not mean those who don't use the store can do it. Having to save up resources for a month or two to get the supplies also isn't a valid reason to say "you can solo this with a given class".

[mystafyi]

Just because people who are willing to buy stuff off the DDO store can solo stuff with all classes does not mean those who don't use the store can do it. Having to save up resources for a month or two to get the supplies also isn't a valid reason to say "you can solo this with a given class".

If you look at MrCow's diaries he solo's everything and has video's and equipment lists and whatnot. he doesnt use the store or outlandish supplies. many others have posted their solo accomplishments but none have archived like the cow, hence I refer to his.

what quests cant you solo?

Disclaimer: I have never used the ddostore to solo a quest and have solo'd most quests on barb and/or multiclass melee

[crimsonknights2]

One thing I have noticed is that on any quest that has an opportunity for failure, if it can be handled without a PUG, it will be. There are rarely pugs for any quest that could fail, unless it is a raid and it cannot be filled by a guild. For some of the quests you used to find PUGS for all the time, think amrath, SOS flagging, etc, I no longer ever see LMFs.

It is a combination of guilds, difficulty, bravery streak, and TR xp loss, but it all stems from the difficulty, and as MadFloyd mentioned, the possibility of failure and what that means to the XP.

[sweez]

I feel that there are four classes that have it TOUGH in DDO when it comes to soloing: a pure rogue, a fighter, a barbarian, and a cleric.

Lolwut? Ever heard of 'blade barrier' and 'divine punishment'? If you're purposely gimping yourself out by not taking both maximize and empower that's your problem, not a game design problem.

[Sarisa]

what quests cant you solo?


Impossible to solo:
Twilight Forge - Need 3 actual people, or 2 active people and an Arti dog if they function underwater.
Vault of Night - Need 2 actual people, Arti dogs can help but can't hit all three levers on a side.

Possibly impossible to solo:
Plane of Night - Dropping the pillars, depends on if you can range ice and fire from air.
Titan Awakes - Arti dog MIGHT make it solo'able, I strongly doubt it could be done on a non-Arti effectively.

Incredibly difficult to solo, but has been done:
Hound of Xoriat, Shroud, Tower of Despair.

Master Artificer and Lord of Blades might end up in this category someday.

Hard to solo, but doable if you have ways of disabling mobs or with creative use of "turret" archers or dead mob bodies, specialized spells, and/or hirelings:
Xorian Cipher, Tomb of the Burning Heart, Fleshmaker's Laboratory, Tomb of the Shadow Lord, Tomb of the Forbidden.

A few others just require a hireling, without any other difficulties:
Part 2 of the Delera's chain, Genesis Point, Tomb of the Shadow King (unless Nsu bugs out and is vulnerable without the light)

I probably forgot a few.

[Targonis]

Lolwut? Ever heard of 'blade barrier' and 'divine punishment'? If you're purposely gimping yourself out by not taking both maximize and empower that's your problem, not a game design problem.

I said tough, and just because you can solo at high levels does not mean it is easy for these classes to solo. Try soloing a place like running with the devils above casual and at level.

[DragonMageT]

Impossible to solo:
Twilight Forge - Need 3 actual people, or 2 active people and an Arti dog if they function underwater.
Vault of Night - Need 2 actual people, Arti dogs can help but can't hit all three levers on a side.

Possibly impossible to solo:
Plane of Night - Dropping the pillars, depends on if you can range ice and fire from air.
Titan Awakes - Arti dog MIGHT make it solo'able, I strongly doubt it could be done on a non-Arti effectively.

Incredibly difficult to solo, but has been done:
Hound of Xoriat, Shroud, Tower of Despair.

Master Artificer and Lord of Blades might end up in this category someday.

Hard to solo, but doable if you have ways of disabling mobs or with creative use of "turret" archers or dead mob bodies, specialized spells, and/or hirelings:
Xorian Cipher, Tomb of the Burning Heart, Fleshmaker's Laboratory, Tomb of the Shadow Lord, Tomb of the Forbidden.

A few others just require a hireling, without any other difficulties:
Part 2 of the Delera's chain, Genesis Point, Tomb of the Shadow King (unless Nsu bugs out and is vulnerable without the light)

I probably forgot a few.

Most of what you listed are raids and not 6 man quests. Raids are designed to be ran by multiple players.

Just because some raids can be solo'd by some, it doesn't mean that all raids should be designed to be ran solo.

[mystafyi]

Impossible to solo:

I did say quests. obviously some raids/preraids cant be solo'd due to lever throwing ect.

there are a few quests that require a hire to complete, technically you are not solo, but game mechanics force the use of an extra pair of hands.

[sweez]

I said tough, and just because you can solo at high levels does not mean it is easy for these classes to solo. Try soloing a place like running with the devils above casual and at level.

Yeah, a few quests* can be a bit tricky, but as a general rule leveling a divine after they get BB is cake, and certainly not comparable to the melee experience in 95% of the content.

* Mostly, if not exclusively, quests with self-healing quest-progression mobs (usually just the end-boss, mobs that self-heal but you don't need to kill you can just ignore) that can't be kited. Quests like say, Rainbow, with bosses that can't be BB-kited used to be hard, but even those are trivial since DP was introduced.

[Dagolar]

All quests can be currently solo'd on every difficulty, with every class. just saying ;) btw the proof is on the forums.

Who says I don't already? :P
Putting aside Targonis' solid points on difficulty-balance and class-specification for such-
There's an altogether different flavor and level design for solo-only quests, as Raiding the Giants' Vault showed.
Not to mention a completely different approach to running a normal quest solo, running a normal quest in a group, and running a solo quest. The first requires focus [since I assume Elite running], the second coordination, the third provides, regardless of difficulty, a sort of relaxed explore-at-your-own-pace feel, with more story-emphasizable flair.

The fact that I play at the hardest difficulty available as a rule is part of the matter, here; And being a completionist..




Hit points as a system are broken beyond belief. Because there is no penalty for min/maxing, casters have more hit points than a d6/d8 melee class (because they can max con with no drawbacks, whereas the d6/d8 classes have other things they need to spend points on). Seriously, 550-600 hit points isn't out of the realm of possibility for Wizzies and Sorcs. Madfloyd and Co need to figure out a way to recapture the spirit of the d20 rules and get some balance back into surviveability.

They did! They made sorcerer abilities con-based!

..wait.

In any case, I like the old school wizard specialist pnp approach:
Illusionist required dex as a secondary stat, etc. The only specialist that required con as a secondary was Conjurer, and, well, that fits.

[Silverleafeon]

Please adjust xp in accordance to difficulty.

Amarath Elite is very difficult with low xp.