Why don't Clerics get force enhancement lines?

[Riggs]

You can make all sorts of arguments about Artificers and making them viable I suppose;

but the plain and simple fact is Clerics have gotten the shaft for most of the game in updates and loot since day 1.

Clerics had blade barrier and cometfall long before Artificers ever saw the light of day, so why have they never been given enhancement lines for their damage spells like every single other class has for theirs?

And why have clerics never gotten a single good/light spell for higher levels? Yeah the pnp rules dont have them, but the pnp rules also dont have all the massive dps adders that melee and arcanes get now either, so it is a moot argument. Clerics also need a set of higher level, higher damage light spells than level 3 searing light. I want to see a level 9 spell - Sunbomb or whatever.

Maybe it is the same mentality that makes every single piece of epic/raid loot for clerics that ever came out have one of two enhancements - devotion, and more turn undead per day.

Every single piece of spell booster that is not healing is called 'arcane lore', not 'divine lore'. Something that could enhance all divine spells - no, anything that causes damage is considered arcane only, even if it affects divine spells, it is the mentality behind the wording that clearly shows the focus of the game.

"Stay in the back and hjeel people - that is your job and dont get all trying to get your own kills and stuff - we will boot you" The mentality seems like a cut and paste of other mmo's "Everyrone has a job and doing damage is not yours".

When will cookie cutters and set roles ever change? That will be a good day.

[k1ngp1n]

Because they're free.

[Aashrym]

Because they're free.

So are favored souls and artificers. Buying them from the store is just a time saver and paying for convenience.

I have an specific opinion on that topic already. ;)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=354839

As for the OP, I wouldn't be surprised if we see the improvements in a PrE as opposed to the base class.

[dkyle]

Clerics and FvS are in absolutely no need of any buffs whatsoever right now.


Every single piece of spell booster that is not healing is called 'arcane lore', not 'divine lore'. Something that could enhance all divine spells - no, anything that causes damage is considered arcane only, even if it affects divine spells, it is the mentality behind the wording that clearly shows the focus of the game.

It's a word. "Devotion" applies to Bard and Arti heals, even though they're not Divine.

But yes, the Devs do have an unfortunate habit of designing loot for some idealized notion of the classes that doesn't reflect the reality of what people actually play. See: ToD ring sets.


"Stay in the back and hjeel people - that is your job and dont get all trying to get your own kills and stuff - we will boot you" The mentality seems like a cut and paste of other mmo's "Everyrone has a job and doing damage is not yours".

When will cookie cutters and set roles ever change? That will be a good day.

Sounds like you're playing with idiots; the existence of them will certainly never change. Outside of the nastiest Raids, a healbot is a waste of a slot. And even then, a competently built Melee or Evoker Divine can easily play "healbot" for the few times it's needed.

[Adken]

And why have clerics never gotten a single good/light spell for higher levels? Yeah the pnp rules dont have them


Yes, there are nice alignment spells in pnp. For example, holy word (a lvl 8 spell), which causes several effects on evil targets. Horoth uses the evil version of the spell, blasphemy.

I say yes to more divine spells, particularly light/alignment spells.

[justagame]

Maybe it's a function of when I started playing D&D, but it just seems unfortunate to me that:

1. Artificers can get much higher damage, and crits, on BB than a cleric can -- the original class with the spell. But the population breaks out in hives and calls for nerfs any time a divine class gets something boosted that isn't healing, so I can see how giving clerics the ability to boost this might would disturb folks.

2. Artificers can have heal scrolls hit for more than clerics can. What I cannot get, is that with much current endgame content requiring/expecting clerics to blow through wads of heal scrolls, why aren't we expecting artificers to do the scroll healing more often?

[k1ngp1n]

So are favored souls and artificers.

No, in fact they are not. They have the potential to be free, but many do not acquire them in that manner. Turbine has a revenue flow from them that is greater than Cleric, and so to them they are not free. And when it comes to gameplay decisions, it is their viewpoint that matters.

You may have gotten them free, but Turb made a lot of cash off of other people - cash they didn't get for Cleric.

[dkyle]

1. Artificers can get much higher damage, and crits, on BB than a cleric can -- the original class with the spell. But the population breaks out in hives and calls for nerfs any time a divine class gets something boosted that isn't healing, so I can see how giving clerics the ability to boost this might would disturb folks.

Clerics/FvS are already highly capable of things outside healing, and have gotten massive boosts recently. The problem is when they can do almost everything dedicated melee can do just as well or better, plus tons of stuff melee can't do.


2. Artificers can have heal scrolls hit for more than clerics can. What I cannot get, is that with much current endgame content requiring/expecting clerics to blow through wads of heal scrolls, why aren't we expecting artificers to do the scroll healing more often?

Cleric on scrolls and SP heals is usually sufficient to keep a Tank up. Arti alone on Scrolls often isn't. Cleric on SP heals, plus Arti on scrolls is a very small improvement in healing efficiency over Cleric alone, but at the cost of two party slots put on healing instead of one, a big disadvantage.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Artificers can have heal scrolls hit for more than clerics can. What I cannot get, is that with much current endgame content requiring/expecting clerics to blow through wads of heal scrolls, why aren't we expecting artificers to do the scroll healing more often?

Same reason you see Shrouds with no more then 2 arcanes, Bards been refused in healer roles and need trapmonkey lfms without artificers in them = old habits die hard.

[Bogenbroom]

Maybe it's a function of when I started playing D&D, but it just seems unfortunate to me that:

1. Artificers can get much higher damage, and crits, on BB than a cleric can -- the original class with the spell. But the population breaks out in hives and calls for nerfs any time a divine class gets something boosted that isn't healing, so I can see how giving clerics the ability to boost this might would disturb folks.


Yes, Artificers can get much higher damage on their blade barriers, but they can not cast nearly as many of them. I think that is a reasonable trade-off.

Artificers also have a harder time getting the potency items necessary to getting that extra damage... unless they want to carry a potency repeater.

So, no, I do not think that Divines should get the force line (unless it were to be specific to a PrE as someone else suggested.) I do think, though, that expanding their repertoire of spells would be great. Divine casters are already VERY powerful offensive casters, but they are largely cookie-cutter in terms of spell selection, because the useful choices are limited.

[vilhazarog]

Yes, there are nice alignment spells in pnp. For example, holy word (a lvl 8 spell), which causes several effects on evil targets. Horoth uses the evil version of the spell, blasphemy.

I say yes to more divine spells, particularly light/alignment spells.

Neverwinter had level 8 'Sunbeam' (20d6 light damage plus blindness, save for half and no blindness) This would probably make the pale masters scream bloody murder.

Not sure why there's no level 8 'Earthquake', that's srd and cool, damage with a knockdown.

Level 9 'Storm of Vengeance' would be nice too, NWN version is 3d6 acid per round for 60 seconds, fail reflex and get an additional 6d6 electric plus stun for 12 seconds. Srd version is more complicated, includes ice bludgeon damage.

There's also the level 9 'Miracle' that allows the cleric to cast *any* level 7 spell or lower... can't imagine that getting implemented though...

[Matuse]

Clerics had blade barrier and cometfall long before Artificers ever saw the light of day, so why have they never been given enhancement lines for their damage spells like every single other class has for theirs?

The other types can be resisted and are not durable AOEs. Absolutely nothing in the game resists or is immune to blade barrier damage, unless it has a special boost making it immune to ALL damage (like Suulomades jumping up on his pole in VoD). The same cannot be said for any other spell, except for things like disintegrate and force missiles which are single target. I've hit the same monster over a dozen times with the SAME casting of blade barrier. Not that there are many who can survive that. 3 hits is fatal for almost everything outside of epic.

Artificers have a comparatively miniscule SP pool to work with, even compared to clerics (to say nothing of FvS). They don't get to use BB very much.

[Aashrym]

No, in fact they are not. They have the potential to be free, but many do not acquire them in that manner. Turbine has a revenue flow from them that is greater than Cleric, and so to them they are not free. And when it comes to gameplay decisions, it is their viewpoint that matters.

You may have gotten them free, but Turb made a lot of cash off of other people - cash they didn't get for Cleric.

Those would be players who are:

A) Paying for the convenience, not the ability. The classes are free by playing the game and I pay my subscription to enjoy more than 2 or 3 classes. I am paying for those other classes.

B) Buying what they want so they can stop paying and supporting the game once they have it. That is not the type of payment structure to support long term revenue and therefore a bad idea to make it the best choice. Someone who spent the points on one class does not entitle them to get better benefit out of that one class compared to someone who pays to enjoy a different class.

The entire notion that premium classes need to be somehow superior to other classes is complete hogwash. Can you please explain to me why I should continue to support a game I purchased before F2P and continued to pay a sub on for years to enjoy playing a bard, cleric, ranger, paladin, rogue or any other class if the design objective is to make premium classes send those other classes to the obsolete bin?

I pay my sub for other classes, not premium classes as do many other players. Long term payment structure for those classes is worth more than a one time purchase of any premium class. Stating that the revenue from paying for a premium class (which is still FREE and only a convenience) only looks at short term profits instead of long term sustainability.

[k1ngp1n]

Those would be players who are:

A) Paying for the convenience, not the ability. The classes are free by playing the game and I pay my subscription to enjoy more than 2 or 3 classes. I am paying for those other classes.

B) Buying what they want so they can stop paying and supporting the game once they have it. That is not the type of payment structure to support long term revenue and therefore a bad idea make it the best choice. Someone who spent the points on one class does not entitle them to get better benefit out of that one class compared to someone who pays to enjoy a different class.

The entire notion that premium classes need to be somehow superior to other classes is complete hogwash. Can you please explain to me why I should continue to support a game I purchased before F2P and continued to pay a sub on for years to enjoy playing a bard, cleric, ranger, paladin, rogue or any other class if the design objective is to make premium classes send those other classes to the obsolete bin?

I pay my sub for other classes, not premium classes as do many other players. Long term payment structure for those classes is worth more than a one time purchase of any premium class. Stating that the revenue from paying for a premium class (which is still FREE and only a convenience) only looks at short term profits instead of long term sustainability.

Because Turbine makes more revenue when they offer a superior class for a cash option.

You may disagree, but Turbine's point of view is the only reason that matters. I also don't agree with it, but hammering heads over this is really a waste of time: Turbine operates under a Pay2Win mechanism. That is all there is to it, there is no other explanation - hence answering the OP's question.

Also, since you seem to be an expert on Short term vs Long term, I would love to see the retention models and P&L statements to support the claims you made. I do that stuff for a living and I'd say pretty clearly they're headed down the best path for the company... maybe not the game, but the company.

[Aashrym]

Because Turbine makes more revenue when they offer a superior class for a cash option.

You may disagree, but Turbine's point of view is the only reason that matters. I also don't agree with it, but hammering heads over this is really a waste of time: Turbine operates under a Pay2Win mechanism. That is all there is to it, there is no other explanation - hence answering the OP's question.

Unless Turbine can guarantee a never ending supply of new players who will purchase it they lose revenue long term. Your logic is faulty and you do not have any more information to state your opinion as fact than I do. ;)

Inevitably sustaining a model of revenue from premium classes means keep getting new customers (that will always hit a limit at some point) or keep making newer and better premium classes. That creates more power creep, TR issues and dissatisfaction, and dissatisfaction with players who are enjoying their current classes. It is easier and more cost effective to keep current customers than it is to add new customers to replace them in any other business. I cannot see this one being different.

The idea that a premium class should be better to promote sales only has one possible outcome: short term profits at the expense of long term health of the game. I would like to think that Turbine is looking at more than just short term profits on those decisions because if they are not they will be creating more issues for themselves at a later date.

If premium classes are pay to win the players paying for them to win are being silly because they are free and if turbine thinks making them pay to win is the way make money so are they. A one time purchase pay to win item has no recurring revenue. So again, free class to any player playing the game by buying game packs or on a subscription, store purchase is nothing but a convenience purchase and therefore is not a reason to ignore other classes.

[dkyle]

The idea that a premium class should be better to promote sales only has one possible outcome: short term profits at the expense of long term health of the game.

I agree.


I would like to think that Turbine is looking at more than just short term profits on those decisions because if they are not they will be creating more issues for themselves at a later date.

I would certainly like to think that, but I don't. Half-orc is blatantly superior to free races for most melee. And if it's not Half-orc, then WF is the next best. They've gone out of their way to squeeze as much short-term profit out of Artificer as possible; not having a favor unlock, getting VIPs to buy it, then making the favor unlock very challenging to reach. Even FvS is intimidating to earn for a new player, encouraging purchases.

Pay2Win makes sense in the short term. I absolutely agree that it's toxic in the long-term, but I'm not so sure they're all that concerned about that. With Neverwinter MMO coming out, I have to wonder if there are some major licensing issued looming for DDO.

[Riggs]

Clerics and FvS are in absolutely no need of any buffs whatsoever right now.



It's a word. "Devotion" applies to Bard and Arti heals, even though they're not Divine.

But yes, the Devs do have an unfortunate habit of designing loot for some idealized notion of the classes that doesn't reflect the reality of what people actually play. See: ToD ring sets.



Sounds like you're playing with idiots; the existence of them will certainly never change. Outside of the nastiest Raids, a healbot is a waste of a slot. And even then, a competently built Melee or Evoker Divine can easily play "healbot" for the few times it's needed.

You misread most of the post.

"Its a word 'Devotion"...umm devotion doesnt affect damage spells, and clerics do not have enhancement lines for anything other than two low level light spells. The fact that Bards can heal better with devotion...so? I was not talking about Bards - that have been nurfed so many times in the game over the years it is not funny.

"Sounds like your playing with idiots"
I was speaking as 'this is how Turbine has designed the class and loot and enhancements to favor this line of play exclusively' - not that I play with people or have a guild full of people that say stupid things like that.

Yes people say that in bad pugs, and I have played with a few people like that, but only a few because i learn to avoid them. But the fact that I avoid them doesnt mean they do not exist, because they see the game designed around some of the same mechanics as other mmo's...and play with that mentality. Turbine encourages it through design.

[Riggs]

Yes, there are nice alignment spells in pnp. For example, holy word (a lvl 8 spell), which causes several effects on evil targets. Horoth uses the evil version of the spell, blasphemy.

I say yes to more divine spells, particularly light/alignment spells.

One divergence from pnp is that damage is so powered up in DDO that a straight up conversion of a spell is probably going to be useless.

How many people use Meteor Swarm? Unless you have a rare/epic combustion 9 or potency 9 item - Meteor Swarm is a low damage, high sp cost spell - when you can be using a level 7 or 8 spell that is boosted by 50-75% from items.

Any higher level spells also have to be supported by enhancement lines, and items - or else the sp cost is still cheaper to do damage with a lower level spell that will end up doing MORE damage than a high level spell - which is a really absurd, and dare I say foolish design for a game.

The frantic tight grip of high level potency items has lead to years of people using lower level spells to do damage - and it saddens me that Turbine does not see this as a problem in game design.

[Riggs]

Yes, Artificers can get much higher damage on their blade barriers, but they can not cast nearly as many of them. I think that is a reasonable trade-off.

Artificers also have a harder time getting the potency items necessary to getting that extra damage... unless they want to carry a potency repeater.

So, no, I do not think that Divines should get the force line (unless it were to be specific to a PrE as someone else suggested.) I do think, though, that expanding their repertoire of spells would be great. Divine casters are already VERY powerful offensive casters, but they are largely cookie-cutter in terms of spell selection, because the useful choices are limited.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Lucid_Dreams

[Riggs]

Neverwinter had level 8 'Sunbeam' (20d6 light damage plus blindness, save for half and no blindness) This would probably make the pale masters scream bloody murder.

Not sure why there's no level 8 'Earthquake', that's srd and cool, damage with a knockdown.

Level 9 'Storm of Vengeance' would be nice too, NWN version is 3d6 acid per round for 60 seconds, fail reflex and get an additional 6d6 electric plus stun for 12 seconds. Srd version is more complicated, includes ice bludgeon damage.

There's also the level 9 'Miracle' that allows the cleric to cast *any* level 7 spell or lower... can't imagine that getting implemented though...

Yeah, I never even went into the list of good divine spells NOT added to the game. Straight up damage spells, not even anything fancy like the arcane spells not added - Shapechange, Wish....Spiderclimb...Fly...and about 200 other useful spells.

Just straight up divine damage spells - not added.

[Vormaerin]

I agree.



I would certainly like to think that, but I don't. Half-orc is blatantly superior to free races for most melee. And if it's not Half-orc, then WF is the next best.

I don't generally make comments based on a poster's join date, but its pretty clear that your evaluation of things is skewed by not joining until 2009 and the Eberron Unlimited version of the game.

Warforged have been in the game since the very beginning. They aren't "better" to sell more. They are the way they are because that's how they are designed in D&D. Nor are they clearly better than other races except in specific roles.

Even without that, your analysis is bit flawed. Half orcs have higher strength than other races, but they have 4 less Con than WF or Dwarves and fewer toughness enhancements. They are a good melee race, but hardly totally dominating, even if you stick to barbarians and fighters. They aren't the best for paladin or rogue or stalwart fighters.

Half elves do tend to make elves look second rate, but to be fair, elves have looked second rate since day one.

The favored soul and artificer favor points just follow the existing pattern from well before you could buy things. Whenever a new thing came out in the pre Unlimited days, it was either automatic or was part of the new favor cap. FVS were priced at 2500 favor because that was the next favor goal at the time. Endgame players pretty much got them right away; everyone else just said "oh well, not right now" or bought them. Same thing with artificers, though the favor award there was kind of botched.

[dkyle]

Warforged have been in the game since the very beginning. They aren't "better" to sell more. They are the way they are because that's how they are designed in D&D. Nor are they clearly better than other races except in specific roles.

WF became premium in DDO unlimited for a reason. Whether they existed from the start or not is irrelevant. I'm well aware of their history. I do know that, for example, they were considered terrible and undesirable for much of the game's history.

Also, the biggest benefit of WF comes from the importance of healing curses in DDO's metagame, which is not typical of D&D PnP.


Even without that, your analysis is bit flawed. Half orcs have higher strength than other races, but they have 4 less Con than WF or Dwarves and fewer toughness enhancements. They are a good melee race, but hardly totally dominating, even if you stick to barbarians and fighters. They aren't the best for paladin or rogue or stalwart fighters.

OK, they're the best for melee DPS.

[Vormaerin]

WF became premium in DDO unlimited for a reason. Whether they existed from the start or not is irrelevant. I'm well aware of their history. I do know that, for example, they were considered terrible and undesirable for much of the game's history.


They were terrible at first because they had to buy their immunities with enhancement points, like the drow used to have have to buy their SR. So you had a huge healing penalty and rust monster vulnerability and nothing really to show for it except free waterbreathing...

That got fixed, fortunately.

Healing Curse is not a reason to consider them overpowered. Its important at the moment. Its entirely likely that something else will be important in the future.

[Forzah]

The reason is that clerics/fvs are divine casters. Hence, they do not get arcane spell enhancement bonusses.

[DukeNukem.]

You can make all sorts of arguments about Artificers and making them viable I suppose;

but the plain and simple fact is Clerics have gotten the shaft for most of the game in updates and loot since day 1.

Clerics had blade barrier and cometfall long before Artificers ever saw the light of day, so why have they never been given enhancement lines for their damage spells like every single other class has for theirs?

And why have clerics never gotten a single good/light spell for higher levels? Yeah the pnp rules dont have them, but the pnp rules also dont have all the massive dps adders that melee and arcanes get now either, so it is a moot argument. Clerics also need a set of higher level, higher damage light spells than level 3 searing light. I want to see a level 9 spell - Sunbomb or whatever.

Maybe it is the same mentality that makes every single piece of epic/raid loot for clerics that ever came out have one of two enhancements - devotion, and more turn undead per day.

Every single piece of spell booster that is not healing is called 'arcane lore', not 'divine lore'. Something that could enhance all divine spells - no, anything that causes damage is considered arcane only, even if it affects divine spells, it is the mentality behind the wording that clearly shows the focus of the game.

"Stay in the back and hjeel people - that is your job and dont get all trying to get your own kills and stuff - we will boot you" The mentality seems like a cut and paste of other mmo's "Everyrone has a job and doing damage is not yours".

When will cookie cutters and set roles ever change? That will be a good day.


yeah healers got booted, but giving divine anything at all to give them abit more chance and not force them to group is asking to much. we all know that.

[Yvonnel-1]

id be happy if the enhancement costs would be a bit reduced at least.... much got changed on other classes to 1/1/1/1... on cleric? 1/2/3/4/17/42/113 :(

would be nice to be able spread a bit more at least ;)

[DukeNukem.]

id be happy if the enhancement costs would be a bit reduced at least.... much got changed on other classes to 1/1/1/1... on cleric? 1/2/3/4/17/42/113 :(

would be nice to be able spread a bit more at least ;)

that would be nice ;)

[Vormaerin]

id be happy if the enhancement costs would be a bit reduced at least.... much got changed on other classes to 1/1/1/1... on cleric? 1/2/3/4/17/42/113 :(

would be nice to be able spread a bit more at least ;)

This isn't really true.

The cost for a Smiting/prayer of smiting/prayer of incredible smiting being maxxed out is 10+6+6= 22. That covers all the cleric's direct damage spells. They need a second line for heals.

There are six arcane enhancement lines: Force/Fire/Lightning/Acid/Cold/Repair.

To max out each of those is 7+6+6 = 19.

So, as long as they are tightly focused, an arcane is slightly cheaper in this regard. But not insanely so. The cleric might save 3AP if they had the arcane system. Its something, but its not exactly a massive difference maker. And an arcane with 2 elements is more expensive than a cleric.

[Yvonnel-1]

This isn't really true.

The cost for a Smiting/prayer of smiting/prayer of incredible smiting being maxxed out is 10+6+6= 22. That covers all the cleric's direct damage spells. They need a second line for heals.

There are six arcane enhancement lines: Force/Fire/Lightning/Acid/Cold/Repair.

To max out each of those is 7+6+6 = 19.

So, as long as they are tightly focused, an arcane is slightly cheaper in this regard. But not insanely so. The cleric might save 3AP if they had the arcane system. Its something, but its not exactly a massive difference maker. And an arcane with 2 elements is more expensive than a cleric.


stop calculating and start moaning, NOW !!

[DukeNukem.]

stop calculating and start moaning, NOW !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2-OSiCqf-I&feature=related

[Blackmoors]

This isn't really true.

The cost for a Smiting/prayer of smiting/prayer of incredible smiting being maxxed out is 10+6+6= 22. That covers all the cleric's direct damage spells. They need a second line for heals.

There are six arcane enhancement lines: Force/Fire/Lightning/Acid/Cold/Repair.

To max out each of those is 7+6+6 = 19.

So, as long as they are tightly focused, an arcane is slightly cheaper in this regard. But not insanely so. The cleric might save 3AP if they had the arcane system. Its something, but its not exactly a massive difference maker. And an arcane with 2 elements is more expensive than a cleric.

Well, this calculations is a bit biased since you forgot to add the percentage of boosts, but even without them, Its clear Arcane is cheaper (22 to 19 - means it costs more than 10%). Now, lets break it done a Fire Enhancement Line from a Arcane and compare to Smiting Line for a Divine:

Arcane Fire:
:: Bonus to Critical chance - 9% (6 AP)
:: Bonus to Critical Damage - 125% (6 AP)
:: Bonus to base Damage - 50% (7 AP)
:: Number of Spells Affected - 14 spells

Divine Smiting:
:: Bonus to Critical chance - 9% (6 AP)
:: Bonus to Critical Damage - 125% (6 AP)
:: Bonus to base Damage - 40% (10 AP)
:: Number of Spells Affected - 8 spells

So, by just a simple comparison, you see that Arcanes not only boost their damage more, they do it by using less AP and at the same time boosting almost double the number of spells when compared with a Divine. Furthermore, Arcane now has Enhancement Lines for ALL their Damage Spells while Divines dont Have anything for untyped (force), which should affect Cometfall, Blade Barrier and both the Glyphs of Warding, not to mention they have Fire Spells but again, not enhancement line whatsoever!

Im sure the Devs are aware of this and I would expect a correction to the Divine enhancement lines to reflect the changes that were made to Arcane and add more enhancement lines to boost damage (Fire and Force). Also, since FvS has a boost to it by the AoV line (Fire, Physical and Untyped - btw, Physical and untyped are the same right now so either remove this altogether or change to alignment or light), I think we can expect a Cleric Prestige Line to boost Spells (would make sense having one for healing, as we have, and add one for Melee and Another to Offensive Casting IMO).

So yeah, I think 2012 will be the year of consolidation were Devs will focus less on adding new stuff and more on correcting bugs and completing all the things that are incomplete ingame, be it Prestige Enhancements one of thous things! One can wish at least... ;)

[DukeNukem.]

So yeah, I think 2012 will be the year of consolidation were Devs will focus less on adding new stuff and more on correcting bugs and completing all the things that are incomplete ingame, be it Prestige Enhancements one of thous things! One can wish at least... ;)

im hoping your completely right ;)

[Vormaerin]

Well, this calculations is a bit biased since you forgot to add the percentage of boosts, but even without them, Its clear Arcane is cheaper (22 to 19 - means it costs more than 10%). Now, lets break it done a Fire Enhancement Line from a Arcane and compare to Smiting Line for a Divine:

)

I think you misunderstand the point. No one is claiming that clerics can nuke like sorcerers. For one thing, the majority of their spells only do 1d6 per 2 lvls to the majority of targets. Its only against Undead and certain other things that their spells do comparable base damage.

However, claiming that converting clerics to the arcane enhancement line would be a big advantage for clerics is dubious.

The arcanes' enhancements only boost their damage by 7% over what a cleric would get with the same amount of base damage. It does cost a little more, but its not a dramatic savings, especially since the costs are screwy. A cleric could drop the last 10% and save 4pts.

If you want to talk about disingenuous, picking the arcane line with the most spells is a bit cheap :P Lightning, Force, Acid, and Cold are only 8-10 spells each.

Btw, you are aware that multi-type spells are enhanced 100% by any any of the lines that could effect it? I haven't specifically checked with Flame Strike, but the whole thing should be enhanced by smiting. Just like Force or Cold boost Ice Storm. You don't need both. Most of the arcane lines only reach that 8-10 because of cross listed spells like Prismatic ray, Ice Storm, etc. There is only 6 actual lightning spells, for example.

[Blackmoors]

I think you misunderstand the point. No one is claiming that clerics can nuke like sorcerers. For one thing, the majority of their spells only do 1d6 per 2 lvls to the majority of targets. Its only against Undead and certain other things that their spells do comparable base damage.

However, claiming that converting clerics to the arcane enhancement line would be a big advantage for clerics is dubious.

The arcanes' enhancements only boost their damage by 7% over what a cleric would get with the same amount of base damage. It does cost a little more, but its not a dramatic savings, especially since the costs are screwy. A cleric could drop the last 10% and save 4pts.

If you want to talk about disingenuous, picking the arcane line with the most spells is a bit cheap :P Lightning, Force, Acid, and Cold are only 8-10 spells each.

Btw, you are aware that multi-type spells are enhanced 100% by any any of the lines that could effect it? I haven't specifically checked with Flame Strike, but the whole thing should be enhanced by smiting. Just like Force or Cold boost Ice Storm. You don't need both. Most of the arcane lines only reach that 8-10 because of cross listed spells like Prismatic ray, Ice Storm, etc. There is only 6 actual lightning spells, for example.

I never compared Divines to Arcanes in terms of Damage output because clearly they cant compete since not only that have inferior spells, they have less spells to choose from and they cant boost them as much. Im not comparing Arcanes to Divines or at least thats not my point, what Im saying is that the Arcane Enhancement lines for spells were reviewed while the Divines weren't. I think the new Arcane enhancement Lines make sense and let you modify and customize your character as you like it and I believe Divines could benefit from the same changes.

As for your math, I think you did the calculations wrong. The Difference between 50% and 40% damage boost to spells its:

:: From a Arcane point of view that has maxed out the lines (Arcane - 7 AP for 50% damage), the Divine will deal less 20% damage for less AP (Divine - 10 AP for 40% damage);
:: From a Divine point of view that has maxed out the lines (Divine - 10 AP for 40%), the Arcane will deal more 25% damage for less AP (Arcane - 7 AP for 50% damage);

Also, heres the breakdown of Arcane Spells (counting muklti-type effects):

Fire - 14
Lightning - 8
Acid - 9
Cold - 9
Force - 8

Every Enhancement Line a Arcane takes has at least the same number of spells of the Smiting Line (and this by using less AP) so at least. IMO, it makes all sense to change the Divine Enhancement lines for spells to reflect the changes made on Arcane. Also, I think that if you have both enhancement lines, spells like Meteor Swarm will deal more damage (Fire+bludgeoning, meaning you would need Fire + Force line). That said, Im not certain and as such, dont want to discuss that until I can confirm it (or someone shows me some testing). For now, ill take your word, assuming you have done conclusive testing that is ;)

[Rusty_Can]

The other types can be resisted and are not durable AOEs. Absolutely nothing in the game resists or is immune to blade barrier damage, unless it has a special boost making it immune to ALL damage

Uhm ... what about decent reflex saves coupled with Evasion? *ducks and hides*

[GermanicusMaximus]

Uhm ... what about decent reflex saves coupled with Evasion? *ducks and hides*

Well, yes, there is that.

Plus the fact that to be effective mobs must be kited through a Blade Barrier, and there are all kinds of mobs that don't like to be kited in DDO.

Blade Barrier is hyped as some killer spell, and it is in the right circumstances. However, I also see Divine Casters throwing it all the time in situations where it is completely ineffective. I guess they are either

1) completely clueless

2) or simply using the limited weapons at their disposal and hoping for the best

A divine caster who is not melee capable can be pretty gimp in large sections of this game.

[voodoogroves]

So yeah, I think 2012 will be the year of consolidation were Devs will focus less on adding new stuff and more on correcting bugs and completing all the things that are incomplete ingame, be it Prestige Enhancements one of thous things! One can wish at least... ;)

Hope is the beginning of unhappiness


I'll hope with you though ... that'd be great ;-)

[Vormaerin]

As for your math, I think you did the calculations wrong. The Difference between 50% and 40% damage boost to spells its:

:: From a Arcane point of view that has maxed out the lines (Arcane - 7 AP for 50% damage), the Divine will deal less 20% damage for less AP (Divine - 10 AP for 40% damage);
:: From a Divine point of view that has maxed out the lines (Divine - 10 AP for 40%), the Arcane will deal more 25% damage for less AP (Arcane - 7 AP for 50% damage);





Sorry, math doesn't work like that.

If I have +50% and you have +40%, that means for 100pts of base damage, my sorcerer does 150 and your cleric does 140. That's a 7% (150/140) advantage to me. You can't disregard the base 100%....

If you want to compare using the same AP, drop the last 10% for clerics and last 5% for sorcerers. Then they are both spending the same amount.

So you get 145/130. That favors sorcerers a bit more, as the damage in now 11.5% greater. That's an artifact of clerics having 4 levels and sorcerers 7.

[Razcar]

Not sure why there's no level 8 'Earthquake', that's srd and cool, damage with a knockdown.
It was supposed to be released many years ago (like 3-4), but was withheld due to some bug. The devs at the time said they were going to fix it and put it in a later patch, but instead it became a vapourspell.

[oweieie]

They have to compensate for the SP system and not having to assign spell slots by limiting access to spells. A PnP cleric has to slot an aweful lot of heal spells, deathward etc. and often doesn't have room for more than a couple damage spells. Being able to just run around casting destruction and implosion and killing 100 enemies is already so far beyond what a PnP cleric can do it's not even vaguely the same class already.

[gloopygloop]

Clerics and FvS are in absolutely no need of any buffs whatsoever right now.

Not true. Clerics and FvS need to have the Light enhancements changed to Light+Force so that we can redirect the melee's screams of rage away from my Wizard and over to my Favored Soul.

"Hjealers" need drama too!

[gloopygloop]

They have to compensate for the SP system and not having to assign spell slots by limiting access to spells. A PnP cleric has to slot an aweful lot of heal spells, deathward etc. and often doesn't have room for more than a couple damage spells. Being able to just run around casting destruction and implosion and killing 100 enemies is already so far beyond what a PnP cleric can do it's not even vaguely the same class already.

A PnP Cleric doesn't have to slot any healing spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Spontaneous Casting
A good cleric (or a neutral cleric of a good deity) can channel stored spell energy into healing spells that the cleric did not prepare ahead of time. The cleric can "lose" any prepared spell that is not a domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm) spell in order to cast any cure spell of the same spell level or lower (a cure spell is any spell with "cure" in its name).
An evil cleric (or a neutral cleric of an evil deity), can’t convert prepared spells to cure spells but can convert them to inflict spells (an inflict spell is one with "inflict" in its name).
A cleric who is neither good nor evil and whose deity is neither good nor evil can convert spells to either cure spells or inflict spells (player’s choice). Once the player makes this choice, it cannot be reversed. This choice also determines whether the cleric turns or commands undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm#turnorRebukeUndead).

[Aashrym]

Not true. Clerics and FvS need to have the Light enhancements changed to Light+Force so that we can redirect the melee's screams of rage away from my Wizard and over to my Favored Soul.

"Hjealers" need drama too!

FvS Evokers are already beasts and worthy of screams of rage. :D

[gloopygloop]

FvS Evokers are already beasts and worthy of screams of rage. :D

I absolutely agree. My FvS isn't really all that good and he can already solo a rediculous amount of content (more than my WF Pale Master can and my Wizard has some pretty good DCs), but I never hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth that people offer up over the "overpowered" Wizards.

My Favored Soul wants wailing and gnashing of teeth, darn it!

[Vormaerin]

well, you can't wail and gnash your teeth at them, then ask them to heal you the next day. At least, not very successfully.

Who needs wizards anyway? Just buy haste pots and you have 90% of their contribution to the group anyway :D

[Gremmlynn]

A PnP Cleric doesn't have to slot any healing spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htmExcept that he said 'heal" spells not healing spells. The "heal" spell has no "cure" in it's name. So you are just looking at level 1-4 spells here.

[goodspeed]

I think if their was a force line, BB would turn into the firewall of old...only it wouldn't die off at lv 15!!!

Ok im for it, jack BB up lol. Just think of it, the ultimate soloer. Id definitely start creating healers.

[NaturalHazard]

well, you can't wail and gnash your teeth at them, then ask them to heal you the next day. At least, not very successfully.

Who needs wizards anyway? Just buy haste pots and you have 90% of their contribution to the group anyway :D

I remember running some low level content on my wizard, he had just gotten haste, i was hasting but got a bit too carried away with my sp so ran out before the next shrine. The fighter demanded *haste* and I tried to trade him some haste pots and he totally lost it over the mic at me, screaming about me not doing my job. Geez at that low level the pots I offered him lasted around as long as my hastes even with extend.

[NaturalHazard]

I think if their was a force line, BB would turn into the firewall of old...only it wouldn't die off at lv 15!!!

Ok im for it, jack BB up lol. Just think of it, the ultimate soloer. Id definitely start creating healers.

How long before there will be wails and screams for a nerf? ;)

[Matuse]

How long before there will be wails and screams for a nerf?

You've definitely never spent any time in the Cleric/FvS forum area, where there have been cries for nerfs for a long, long time now.

[smatt]

I remember running some low level content on my wizard, he had just gotten haste, i was hasting but got a bit too carried away with my sp so ran out before the next shrine. The fighter demanded *haste* and I tried to trade him some haste pots and he totally lost it over the mic at me, screaming about me not doing my job. Geez at that low level the pots I offered him lasted around as long as my hastes even with extend.


We had a guildie do just that.... He announced "Haste on me" and then started passign out pots.... Funny stuff.... I'm more than happy to hand out buffs etc.... But demanding them, gets you no where with me..... I would've told the douchbag to go... Oops.. Well you know ;)

[Riggs]

Neverwinter had level 8 'Sunbeam' (20d6 light damage plus blindness, save for half and no blindness) This would probably make the pale masters scream bloody murder.

Not sure why there's no level 8 'Earthquake', that's srd and cool, damage with a knockdown.

Level 9 'Storm of Vengeance' would be nice too, NWN version is 3d6 acid per round for 60 seconds, fail reflex and get an additional 6d6 electric plus stun for 12 seconds. Srd version is more complicated, includes ice bludgeon damage.

There's also the level 9 'Miracle' that allows the cleric to cast *any* level 7 spell or lower... can't imagine that getting implemented though...

Indeed - missing damage spells makes the issue more pronounced.

Everyone on the side of 'no buffs' is arguing that blade barrier is fine and clerics dont need any more buffs.

That is completely missing the point.

If wizards and sorcs could NOT boost acid spells because "Well you have firewall so shut up and stop compaining" that totally would not fly.

Clerics and Fvs get damage spells, and are even missing damage spells from pnp (where arcanes are also missing damage spells, they are mostly missing utility spells that would break have of DDO - like spider climb or fly for example).

If you get a line of damage spells, there is zero reason you should not be allowed to use enhancements to boost that line of damage spells just like any other class, any other line of damage spells.

People focus on blade barrier (no one cares much about cometfall but that should be included too), because the AI is stupid, and the damage affects everything pretty much.

The AI is an issue for all aoe, so that doesnt fly. The fact that the spell affects everything ignores the fact that clerics are missing a lot from pnp still, and the fact that there is TWO good damage doing spells for clerics seems to be TWO too many for a lot of people.

Anyone who wants to keep arguing that clerics should not be able to boost ALL their damage spells either has to admit they are being illogical - or also argue that ALL casting classes have HALF of their damage lines taken away too.

Or else they are admitting they just want healbots to sit in the back and let the 'real classes' do the fun stuff.

[Impaqt]

Eladrin still hates Divine casters.

[jwdaniels]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't cast blade barrier with my cleric nearly often enough to really care. Implosion kills mobs faster and doesn't leave little bits of monster all over the place - it's a much cleaner kill.

[Impaqt]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't cast blade barrier with my cleric nearly often enough to really care. Implosion kills mobs faster and doesn't leave little bits of monster all over the place - it's a much cleaner kill.

Implosion can only kill 5 at a time best case scenario. BB can clean up a Red alert.

[Riggs]

On a side note - the fact that "Well divines get to heal and that makes them overpowered if they can also kill stuff" only hints that healing has become too unbalanced in DDO.

The amount of healing that you need at high levels keeps going up, with more and more unavoidable damage of various types being thrown at players.

If a non-divine wants to be considered remotely self sufficient they are supposed to be able to umd heal scrolls, or have silver flame pots.

The need for massive healing to do anything is a power creep issue - that has resulted in meta game where any caster is expected to heal themslves, any melee is expected to heal themselves, and divines can completely overheal a group now - yet damage comes so fast in raids they are not given a second to run around doing something other than healing.

If Turbine, and a big chunk of players, doesnt want clerics and fvs to run around doing damage and stuff - petition for a new class called - Healer Only - that has zero damage spells and no weapon proficiencies at all. Their sole role is to buff, heal, and stay in the back and keep their mouth shut.

That would be fun eh? I am sure a lot of people would roll up Healers. Cause its fun.

[Memek]

Because BB isnt a "real" Force spell, it has just been crammed into the Force amplification because there was nothing to boost it in the first place. Only classes with "real" Force spells get Force enhancements. Like it or not, but at least Clerics get Implosion, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain and single target insta kills and Artis have nothing of that - so leave the poor Artis alone ;-).

[jwdaniels]

Implosion can only kill 5 at a time best case scenario. BB can clean up a Red alert.

And blade barrier is already good enough at doing just that - giving clerics an enhancement line to make it better is just win more.

[Niv-mizzet]

On a side note - the fact that "Well divines get to heal and that makes them overpowered if they can also kill stuff" only hints that healing has become too unbalanced in DDO.

The amount of healing that you need at high levels keeps going up, with more and more unavoidable damage of various types being thrown at players.

If a non-divine wants to be considered remotely self sufficient they are supposed to be able to umd heal scrolls, or have silver flame pots.

The need for massive healing to do anything is a power creep issue - that has resulted in meta game where any caster is expected to heal themslves, any melee is expected to heal themselves, and divines can completely overheal a group now - yet damage comes so fast in raids they are not given a second to run around doing something other than healing.

If Turbine, and a big chunk of players, doesnt want clerics and fvs to run around doing damage and stuff - petition for a new class called - Healer Only - that has zero damage spells and no weapon proficiencies at all. Their sole role is to buff, heal, and stay in the back and keep their mouth shut.

That would be fun eh? I am sure a lot of people would roll up Healers. Cause its fun.

There is, in fact, a 3.5 class simply called "Healer." They work pretty much how you said. Heals, spells that fix conditions, they get their charisma mod added into any healing they do (meaning using cure minor from level 0 spells even, they can heal for a handful of hp, and potions they personally brew are awesome,) and they have **** for hit die, skills, proficiencies and other class features. Iirc, they get a unicorn or something randomly though.

I kinda agree that the game has largely restricted people outside of raids to constant BYOH. Dunno what anyone can do about it now though.

Oh I will add to the main topic of blade barrier increasing. As someone said, divines have half base-damage compared to arcanes due to the thematic less-damaging more-fixing-stuff nature of divine magic. Even the situations where they DO get massive damage such as certain spells against undead/evil outsiders etc, that kinda fits in with "fixing stuff that ain't right."

Blade Barrier in pnp has the arcane formula for damage because it's a barrier. It's defensive in nature. Yeah you can throw it ON someone as well in pnp, but generally after one hit, they'll move to one side of the barrier and be **** sure they don't go through it again.

DDO's version, thanks to the AI or lack thereof, enemies will dance through your blade barrier as much as you can get them to. Maybe when that issue is different, I might be inclined to see divines getting the force/untyped damage AP line (and I'd still be very iffy on it,) but DEFINATELY not before that.

[countfitz]

I'm just one TR away from having every single one of my toons being a divine caster (the other is a Paladin...) and all I can say is

NO.

Clerics are already massively overpowered. Wizards of the Coast designed them that way on purpose, to give people and incentive to playing "healers."

Yes, Favored Souls are "better" (in some opinions, mine is that they are equal but for the highest level of players with the highest skills, of which I am not) but they are also a paid for class (and until recently getting them "free" was just silly, no true F2P player can realistically ever get them, and even most VIPs paid, even with their "free" TP, for them, same with artis).

Boosting them even more would only encourage what almost all of us do already, Solo, Duo, or guild run.

Hell, honestly, if my toons get any better I wouldn't even have a reason to guild run!

What I still can't understand is why people play any other classes but casters/divines.

[testing1234]

think clerics and fvs are the only class if MASSIVE nerfed would still be just as needed in partys. they are basically immune to nerf cant think of any nerf which would diminish the need for them in party.
agree with a earlier post said about powercreep of both enemy and equip and other classes lead to it almost being impossible get anything done without a healer. either its trivial or you "need" a healer and only 2 of those around.

(going to be intresting to see what impact druid has on this only thing that could hurt the cleric/fvs is a competing class that has as good or better healing)

[Krago]

Same reason you see Shrouds with no more then 2 arcanes, Bards been refused in healer roles and need trapmonkey lfms without artificers in them = old habits die hard.

Just depends on who starts the LFM. If its a melee, he knows the pain his fellow brothers in arms are feeling and so keeps those caster types to a max number allowed in his LFM.

If a caster starts an LFM, he just knows what his fellows are capable of and is perfectly fine running with a full group of demi-gods. :)

[DeafeningWhisper]

Just depends on who starts the LFM. If its a melee, he knows the pain his fellow brothers in arms are feeling and so keeps those caster types to a max number allowed in his LFM.

If a caster starts an LFM, he just knows what his fellows are capable of and is perfectly fine running with a full group of demi-gods. :)

So you agree that melees are classists jerks and casters are not? Cool with me :)

[Riggs]

DDO's version, thanks to the AI or lack thereof, enemies will dance through your blade barrier as much as you can get them to. Maybe when that issue is different, I might be inclined to see divines getting the force/untyped damage AP line (and I'd still be very iffy on it,) but DEFINATELY not before that.

So - by that logic - All arcane Aoe spells should have NO enhancement lines as well.

Because of the AI. Monsters stand or run around in firewall/clouds/ice storm just as much as they run around in blade barrier.

So - take away ALL arcane damage lines that affect aoe spells too - check.

[Riggs]

Because BB isnt a "real" Force spell, it has just been crammed into the Force amplification because there was nothing to boost it in the first place. Only classes with "real" Force spells get Force enhancements. Like it or not, but at least Clerics get Implosion, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain and single target insta kills and Artis have nothing of that - so leave the poor Artis alone ;-).

How exactly does giving a divine damage line take something away from a different class?

Artificers get nothing else either? No repeater damage, no rune arm damage, no unlimited level 20 wand spamming damage?

Maybe read what artificers can do again.

[Riggs]

And blade barrier is already good enough at doing just that - giving clerics an enhancement line to make it better is just win more.

See above - so you also are on the 'take away all arcane aoe damage lines' - which would include at least fire, acid, and cold.

Check.

[Lifespawn]

You can make all sorts of arguments about Artificers and making them viable I suppose;

but the plain and simple fact is Clerics have gotten the shaft for most of the game in updates and loot since day 1.

Clerics had blade barrier and cometfall long before Artificers ever saw the light of day, so why have they never been given enhancement lines for their damage spells like every single other class has for theirs?

And why have clerics never gotten a single good/light spell for higher levels? Yeah the pnp rules dont have them, but the pnp rules also dont have all the massive dps adders that melee and arcanes get now either, so it is a moot argument. Clerics also need a set of higher level, higher damage light spells than level 3 searing light. I want to see a level 9 spell - Sunbomb or whatever.

Maybe it is the same mentality that makes every single piece of epic/raid loot for clerics that ever came out have one of two enhancements - devotion, and more turn undead per day.

Every single piece of spell booster that is not healing is called 'arcane lore', not 'divine lore'. Something that could enhance all divine spells - no, anything that causes damage is considered arcane only, even if it affects divine spells, it is the mentality behind the wording that clearly shows the focus of the game.

"Stay in the back and hjeel people - that is your job and dont get all trying to get your own kills and stuff - we will boot you" The mentality seems like a cut and paste of other mmo's "Everyrone has a job and doing damage is not yours".

When will cookie cutters and set roles ever change? That will be a good day.



clerics have dots that can be some serious dps i do agree they need more light spells tho

[licho]

Becouse Devs hate cleric and want to make them suffer.
Also the idea of clerics doing offensive casting is a odd one.
Nevertheless clerics are free, so there will be no profit in investing time in them.

Personally i wish the clerics enhacements will be tidy up, the rule of thumb is that if some class get a certain element spells, there should be a way to boost effectivness of it. So Clerics should have the way to boost: fire, force, light, alligment based dmg in the same way as arcanes can do with own lines.

[justagame]

think clerics and fvs are the only class if MASSIVE nerfed would still be just as needed in partys. they are basically immune to nerf cant think of any nerf which would diminish the need for them in party.
agree with a earlier post said about powercreep of both enemy and equip and other classes lead to it almost being impossible get anything done without a healer. either its trivial or you "need" a healer and only 2 of those around.

(going to be intresting to see what impact druid has on this only thing that could hurt the cleric/fvs is a competing class that has as good or better healing)

Interesting definition of "immune to nerfs" there.

Go ahead, try massively nerfing them, and see how many people are even playing them.

[justagame]

Becouse Devs hate cleric and want to make them suffer.
Also the idea of clerics doing offensive casting is a odd one.
Nevertheless clerics are free, so there will be no profit in investing time in them.

Personally i wish the clerics enhacements will be tidy up, the rule of thumb is that if some class get a certain element spells, there should be a way to boost effectivness of it. So Clerics should have the way to boost: fire, force, light, alligment based dmg in the same way as arcanes can do with own lines.

The idea of clerics doing offensive casting is only odd for those not familiar with DnD. They prefer the idea of a helpless priest in robes doing nothing but healing. That is a pretty far cry from the origin of the class in the game.

I have an old players handbook open in front of me. "Clerics do not have as many offensive spells at their disposal as wizards, but the ones they do have are very powerful."

[bigolbear]

Why dont clerics get force enhancements?

The same question should be asked about fire enhancements (flame strike and fire storm), and electricity (glyphs), sonic (soundburst)

And why dont wizards(non pms) and sorcs get negative energy (lesser death aura, death aura, necrotic ray, negative energy burst) and sonic (shout, greater shout).

What about truly untyped spells such as horid wilting which actualy causes 'dehydration' damage.

And how come a character with dragon marks cant take the relevent enhancement line to boost their effectiveness, meaning that dragon marks are only working to full effectiveness on certain classes, anoyingly the classes that probly benefit the least from them.

Ive ranted about this state of affairs in the Lets talk: enhancements thread - where i advocated full access to all classes/races to all these enhancements. Im glad your asking these sorts of questions and the right place to discuss them is in that thread - If you care about these choices as much as I do then please pop in that thread and voice your opinion.