Non-WF Caster, Rejected from Shroud

[Plutocracy]

My 18 human air savant just got rejected from Shroud group for not being a WF. :) What can I say, the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off.

[smallstones]

My 18 human air savant just got rejected from Shroud group for not being a WF. :) What can I say, the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off.

Morons Abound. Don't worry about it, the next shroud leaves in 15.

[Simplesimon1979]

Unfotuanly you just found a bad leader. He probably wouldn't take any rogues ether cause all they do are traps. :)

[voodoogroves]

Count yourself lucky and move on.


Some people are arbitrarily picky and, at times, kinda rude and jerky. Don't let it spoil your day.

[Kits]

They did you a favor, join the next one.

Did a shroud couple days ago, and we had 4 casters;
PL said "who wants to do crystal?
One of the sorcs (level 20) volunteered.

The FvS in party objected to his doing the crystal with:
[party chat]: he can't do the crystal! What if he dies? I'd much prefer if a WF or PM did it instead.

LOL. noobs.

[danotmano1998]

Well, serves you right.

How dare you make a character that does not fit the prescribed MIN/MAX template that all people must build to or be social outcasts?

Next thing you know, people will be wanting to play this game for fun.
Really, what the heck is WRONG with you??


(// For those of you that cannot hear the sarcasm above, let me assure you that I am saying all of the above completely in jest. It's meant to be amusing, not taken seriously)

Yeah, well... You didn't want to be in that party anyhow.
They wanted a chest blesser as well. (only gnomes need apply) :p

[Bobthesponge]

They did you a favor, join the next one.

Did a shroud couple days ago, and we had 4 casters;
PL said "who wants to do crystal?
One of the sorcs (level 20) volunteered.

The FvS in party objected to his doing the crystal with:
[party chat]: he can't do the crystal! What if he dies? I'd much prefer if a WF or PM did it instead.

LOL. noobs.

ummm... the crystal hits back now?

ha ha!

[smallstones]

ummm... the crystal hits back now?

ha ha!

Well, While Agree it is silly remark, The last handful of shroud runs, People didn't clear all of the trash... Yeah, I was getting knocked around by a kitty for a few before I got a wail off... My only scare is that I wasn't ready to kill the crystal, and luckly, Killed the kitty before the bosses dropped.

[In_Like_Flynn]

10 ARCANES MUST BE WARFORGED
20 GOTO 10

It's a difficult thought process to interrupt without being able to do a Dog Whisperer style poke.

*poke* Fshhht!

[smallstones]

10 ARCANES MUST BE WARFORGED
15 IF ARCANE NOT WARFORGED; PRINT "ERROR, DOES NOT COMPUTE, RE-ROLL YOU GIMP"
20 GOTO 10


Fixed that. However, It is Amazing at how many believe this to be true.

[Cauthey]

My 18 human air savant just got rejected from Shroud group for not being a WF. :) What can I say, the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off.

It is times like this when I will actively compete with a group leader for fills.

If you reject my application to join your party for something unreasonable (don't like my build, don't like my HPs, don't like that you already have 1 arcane, whatever), I will post up my own LFM.

And mine might fill before yours. :p Cause for Shroud, I'm taking the first 9 + 2 heals. :D

[DeafeningWhisper]

What? You're saying that you don't use your SP to heal yourself but instead you kill stuff with it!? Insanity I tell ya!

Seriously tho, it happens and seen how Shroud is one, if not THE, most run raid you see all types of leaders.

Sometimes it feel like amateur raid leader night: "no more arcanes, I can solo cast this", "no rogues, we need dps", "no arties, they are useless", "no bards, they bring nothing to the group", "no more then 2 healers, 3 is waste of space" and so on...

On WF arcanes, I'll never run one not because they aren't good or are too easy to solo lvl (which they kinda are) but because to me a caster shouldn't be 6.4 feet, be built like a wrestler and weight 400 pounds.

[mobrien316]

My dwarven cleric was once booted from a Shroud because he showed up carrying a greataxe.

The leader said, "Sorry, no battleclerics" and booted me.


Their LFM was still posted for a healer twenty minutes later.

Meh.

[Chauncey1]

My 18 human air savant just got rejected from Shroud group for not being a WF. :) What can I say, the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off.

LOL
That's just plain silly.
I've run with all types of casters in shroud, they're all equally valuable IMHO.

[LordMond63]

Although I would have to agree that the most likely reason this happened is, as mentioned above, you ran into a really bad leader, I'll posit another possibility:

We've pretty much always had too few healers to go around, right? So I guess the leader might have taken this into consideration and thought that having a character with excellent self-healing skills (or several, for that matter) might take a bit of pressure off the healer(s) in the group. If the alternative is sitting there for a half hour waiting for a 'real' healer to show up, then maybe this makes a smidgen of sense.

Or perhaps I am engaging in a bit of over-analyzation here.....

[Enoach]

My dwarven cleric was once booted from a Shroud because he showed up carrying a greataxe.

The leader said, "Sorry, no battleclerics" and booted me.


Their LFM was still posted for a healer twenty minutes later.

Meh.

Actually, I would have booted you if you didn't show up with an Ax in your hand :)

To the OP are you sure you were rejected for not being a Warforged or was it because you didn't have red eyes... hehehe

I enjoy listening to some of the Inane reasons why people won't group with {Insert Class/Race here}. And in almost every case their argument is vague enough it could be applied to any Class/Race.

Example: "I don't heal warforged, they cost too much"... But then don't have any problem healing the Barbarian that jumps in front of every swing and through every trap.

[Ralmeth]

Although I would have to agree that the most likely reason this happened is, as mentioned above, you ran into a really bad leader, I'll posit another possibility:

We've pretty much always had too few healers to go around, right? So I guess the leader might have taken this into consideration and thought that having a character with excellent self-healing skills (or several, for that matter) might take a bit of pressure off the healer(s) in the group. If the alternative is sitting there for a half hour waiting for a 'real' healer to show up, then maybe this makes a smidgen of sense.

Or perhaps I am engaging in a bit of over-analyzation here.....

You're first idea is the right one, irregardless of what the leader was thinking. Shroud on normal only takes 9 of anything + 2 healers, all of the appropriate levels. You just need to fill up and go.

To the Op, that stinks but as others have mentioned perhaps it was a good thing you didn't get into that leader's group.

[morticianjohn]

My 18 human air savant just got rejected from Shroud group for not being a WF. :) What can I say, the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off.

For every sorc that can successfully scroll heal themselves I have seen 2 who have failed misreably in key situations. While I don't screen for (nearly) anything I run I can see the reasoning here if they were running elite or something. It's not just about having the UMD and concentration.

[Such755]

lol noob leader.

[Bowser_Koopa]

It's Bowserkoopa!!!!!!


Well obviously this just proves that Koopa's are the master race and all you silly plumber wannabe's should re-roll.

[grodon9999]

best sorc I know is a Human. What's not to love about an maxed out Air-Savant with a 42 necro DC?

[KingOfCheese]

best sorc I know is a Human. What's not to love about an maxed out Air-Savant with a 42 necro DC?

Sounds good to me. Could probably benefit from a little more WF though :)

[twigzz]

I've also been declined from raids because I'm a "melee" FvS and not a "healer".... Makes me laugh, then I laugh harder when I post my own LFM, solo heal and practically their whole group will jump ship.

I can't say my sorc has ever been declined for not being WF tho.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Yeah, what makes the leader really look dumb is that fleshy is the optimal choice for sorcerer at higher levels of gear (HP GS item, epic gear, 100% heal scroll chance etc).

[Paleus]

I can one up you on that. I recently got rejected from a shroud because the leader "Already had a caster." That's right, he had already filled the one caster spot allowable in a normal shroud.

In my heart, I like to think that the leader was instituting some kind of affirmative action policy to get more melees into shroud runs to compensate for the recent changes giving rise to a dot-mageddon.

[NaturalHazard]

they did you a favour.

[NaturalHazard]

Yeah, what makes the leader really look dumb is that fleshy is the optimal choice for sorcerer at higher levels of gear (HP GS item, epic gear, 100% heal scroll chance etc).

The op is awesome with his scroll healing, lately ive had a gutsful of level 20 fleshy sorcs with no self healing whatsoever, and these are the sorcs that often have a conga line of mobs after them, while they jump around screaming for jheals, expecting you to chase after them and heal them, and its a task and a half because they are kiting willy nilly getting blocked.

Or even in shroud they are on the opposite side of map in part 4 from your healer so you have to run forward dodge blades to give them a heal, its a bloody pain, I dont understand why they go for 40+ charisma and ignore the umd skill. Mass heals are on the party, i will spot heal other healers, and will try to heal the AA's, arti's, and other ranged/casters, but is it so wrong of me to expect these guys to have some form of self healing? Because it gets really annoying to heal all these people scattered all over the place often out of range, I hate running after people to heal them.

[Candela90]

My 18 human air savant just got rejected from Shroud group for not being a WF. :) What can I say, the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off.

Trurh i wouldnt play non-WF sorc, but its only cause my main is fvs, and i just cant play without fast self healing (and lest be honest, in blades inm shroud helaing yourself with scroll is not a great option).

BUT I know that e.g. human sorc can be really an great addition. on WF i can have max 38 on all schools, and 39 on choosen 1. Ewentually more on evo/conj with cleric/sorc past lifes.
On human u can get it 41/42 for all spells, and 43 for choosen school. Its a dynamit. I mean =- unknockable as an air savant nuker, with big pool of sp, fast casting and good enough DC for instant kills/ench.


But partially i CAN understand this in shroud. As a divine i prefer to have all melees in the middle, and all others self healing. Because sometimes caster just standso on the other side of map and u cant heal him/her. Still... I suspect that if the leader just said to u to keep in part 3 close to him u wouldnt make any problems with that.

[MRMechMan]

And let that be a lesson to you OP.

BOW DOWN BEFORE THE CHOSEN RACE OF EBERRON!

[Moltier]

And let that be a lesson to you OP.

BOW DOWN BEFORE THE CHOSEN RACE OF EBERRON!

Yes OP! Bow before the Halflings!

[keefer1]

As stated above, prob noob leader.

Though some valid points are being brought up in the leaders defense, A 18 Sorc of any race should understand that you're kinda on your own in part 4 anyways. My two Arcanes 20 WF Wizzy and 20 Drow sorc ( no savant) self heal beacause I understand that i'm jumping all over Hades trying to stay out of the blades and aggro from Harry.

My WF and Sorc have close to the same completion ratios so i don't see any validity in the leaders decision, unless it was a posted all WF run....

They're right better off not being in that run IMO

Devilsbane...G-Land

[Urjak]

yeah just yesterday I got rejected from a shroud run, because they "already had 2 arcanes" ... I loled and moved on ... back to topic: for a normal or even hard shroud this is total nonsense. On elite I might understand it, if the leader was trying to make an all arcane elite run (which I see now and then). All in all, just laugh about that leaders noobness and move on^^ (its not as if shroud pugs were rare ;) )

[MRMechMan]

yeah just yesterday I got rejected from a shroud run, because they "already had 2 arcanes" ... I loled and moved on

Old habits die hard.

[tasslehofff]

dont feel bad my rogue get rejected from a vod cause he had no DR breakers (was the reason the leader said )
as if he knew what i have in my backpack guess a 590 hp rogue is just gimp without dr breakers lol

[tinyelvis]

Two factors are in play here. One, hitpoints are visible and two, the vast majority of people playing this game have no idea what really is going on.

I like visible hitpoints. What we need now is a break down of damage output in the quest log; and perhaps in your hitpoint bar a rating that shows how much damage you typically do compared to total party damage. This way, the typical neanderthal in the game would have an easy stat to gauge player ability that actually has some baring on his performance.

[MRMechMan]

And a stat showing monsters CCed, a stat showing party hp healed, a stat showing how much hp overhealed, a stat showing damage absorbed, a stat showing bosses killed, a stat showing bardsongs sang, a stat showing party members lives saved, etc. etc. etc.

A kill count is enough. It's a fairly decent measure of damage in MOST quests. When you've played this game long enough you know who is putting out damage and who is not.

[Urjak]

Two factors are in play here. One, hitpoints are visible and two, the vast majority of people playing this game have no idea what really is going on.

I like visible hitpoints. What we need now is a break down of damage output in the quest log; and perhaps in your hitpoint bar a rating that shows how much damage you typically do compared to total party damage. This way, the typical neanderthal in the game would have an easy stat to gauge player ability that actually has some baring on his performance.

First off visible dps-meter would be a really really bad idea, BUT thank god this is not really possible :) (I mean yes it is, but would require a real lot of work^^) ... I mean how does the engine now which attacks you will cycle, which weapons of those you have in your inventory you will use, when you will use which boosts/clickies, will you switch to your optimal weapons all the time when encountering different foes? which spells will you cycle? dps varies greatly when encountering different foes (different AC, DR, saves, SR, resists, ...) ... I mean it would be somehow possible by the engine logging how well you did the last time you ran that specific quest ... but I dont see this happen (just imagine the insane amount of resources required for that) ... and will need an ai implementation that actually tries to figure out your typical playstyle and reaction time and, and, and, .... not gonna happen ;)

[Philibusta]

And let that be a lesson to you OP.

BOW DOWN BEFORE THE CHOSEN RACE OF EBERRON!

WF aren't a race. They're a production line. Like Hyundais.

OP: Maybe you weren't the Droid they were looking for.

[Truga]

WF aren't a race. They're a production line. Like Toyotas.

FYP. Never breaks down, ever!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I can one up you on that. I recently got rejected from a shroud because the leader "Already had a caster." That's right, he had already filled the one caster spot allowable in a normal shroud.

In my heart, I like to think that the leader was instituting some kind of affirmative action policy to get more melees into shroud runs to compensate for the recent changes giving rise to a dot-mageddon.

There was an LFM on Thelanis yesterday that was only looking for melee types. I think he only wanted Brbs, Ftrs or Mnks. Think he had two arcanes in group already.

I had to go check the clock in the TARDIS. :cool:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Two factors are in play here. One, hitpoints are visible and two, the vast majority of people playing this game have no idea what really is going on.

I like visible hitpoints. What we need now is a break down of damage output in the quest log; and perhaps in your hitpoint bar a rating that shows how much damage you typically do compared to total party damage. This way, the typical neanderthal in the game would have an easy stat to gauge player ability that actually has some baring on his performance.

This is the real factor. (in blue) :cool:

[PNellesen]

My 18 human air savant just got rejected from Shroud group for not being a WF. :)

Was this on Orien? I was called a "moron" once for trying to join a pre-U12 Normal Shroud on a 19C/1F...

[MRMechMan]

Was this on Orien? I was called a "moron" once for trying to join a pre-U12 Normal Shroud on a 19C/1F...

No capstone, no fifth 9th level spell slot and ~100 fewer sp, why even bother applying!

(kidding)

[Chauncey1]

I saw an lfm up for shroud last night that was for melees only, min hp 350....
let that sink in.

[grodon9999]

First off visible dps-meter would be a really really bad idea, BUT thank god this is not really possible :) (I mean yes it is, but would require a real lot of work^^) ... I mean how does the engine now which attacks you will cycle, which weapons of those you have in your inventory you will use, when you will use which boosts/clickies, will you switch to your optimal weapons all the time when encountering different foes? which spells will you cycle? dps varies greatly when encountering different foes (different AC, DR, saves, SR, resists, ...) ... I mean it would be somehow possible by the engine logging how well you did the last time you ran that specific quest ... but I dont see this happen (just imagine the insane amount of resources required for that) ... and will need an ai implementation that actually tries to figure out your typical playstyle and reaction time and, and, and, .... not gonna happen ;)

Just put "Total Damage Scored" in the combat log next to kill counts.

[maddmatt70]

Although for the shroud on normal this is clearly overboard by the Raid leader there is two points for the OP.

1. Wizard and Sorcerers are the most difficult classes to play. Pug spellcasters often cast the wrong spells and are squishy. A warforge caster will at least be not squishy generally.

2. Why are you making a human sorc anyway? Where the game is at warforge sorc are just far superior from a surviveability standpoint. A palemaster obviously can be and should be fleshy. Heal Scrolls are not comparable to the reconstruct spell. I would not make a fleshy sorc and to be honest would think that somebody that is making a fleshy sorc probably would not know there stuff and would also cast the wrong spells. The one exception to this rule is the player that has tons of past lives, excellent gear, quality hit points, and silver flame favor so that they can drink silver flame pots and still be effective. In epic MA leave your fleshy sorc at home and in elite shroud leave it home, etc.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just put "Total Damage Scored" in the combat log next to kill counts.

I still want "total damage taken". :cool:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Although for the shroud on normal this is clearly overboard by the Raid leader there is two points for the OP.

1. Wizard and Sorcerers are the most difficult classes to play. Pug spellcasters often cast the wrong spells and are squishy. A warforge caster will at least be not squishy generally.

2. Why are you making a human sorc anyway? Where the game is at warforge sorc are just far superior from a surviveability standpoint. A palemaster obviously can be and should be fleshy. Heal Scrolls are not comparable to the reconstruct spell. I would not make a fleshy sorc and to be honest would think that somebody that is making a fleshy sorc probably would not know there stuff and would also cast the wrong spells. The one exception to this rule is the player that has tons of past lives, excellent gear, quality hit points, and silver flame favor so that they can drink silver flame pots and still be effective. In epic MA leave your fleshy sorc at home and in elite shroud leave it home, etc.

Where will the game be next mod?

When they change the rules and all WF are suddenly gimped (read: "not the best") are you going to reroll?

I play what I think is fun to play.

Sometimes I do base that opinion on some ability or advantage of the race/class..etc.

But only playing what you think is the "best" race or build based on the current rules...just guarantees disappointment when something gets nerfed.

Anyway, there are still many people in ths game who play what they think is fun, not what they think is the best.

[dkyle]

As long as you can heal yourself (with Heal scrolls, most likely), you're fine. Self-healing as a caster is simply assumed these days, and rightfully so.

If you can't heal yourself, good luck. Go stand with the melee, I guess? In part 4 and 5, I heal the melee (centered on myself, in melee). If you're not with them, you're on your own.

[danotmano1998]

Although for the shroud on normal this is clearly overboard by the Raid leader there is two points for the OP.

1. Wizard and Sorcerers are the most difficult classes to play. Pug spellcasters often cast the wrong spells and are squishy. A warforge caster will at least be not squishy generally.

2. Why are you making a human sorc anyway? Where the game is at warforge sorc are just far superior from a surviveability standpoint. A palemaster obviously can be and should be fleshy. Heal Scrolls are not comparable to the reconstruct spell. I would not make a fleshy sorc and to be honest would think that somebody that is making a fleshy sorc probably would not know there stuff and would also cast the wrong spells. The one exception to this rule is the player that has tons of past lives, excellent gear, quality hit points, and silver flame favor so that they can drink silver flame pots and still be effective. In epic MA leave your fleshy sorc at home and in elite shroud leave it home, etc.

Not necessarily true. In some cases, people have a problem with the WF race period in a D&D setting and refuse to play it. Some just plain hate the way WF look.

In my case, I have a lot of fun on my human sorc because my UMD is good enough to not only heal, but to use raise dead scrolls, and even a handful of arti scrolls. Plus there's the fact that as a human you get +1 skill points and an extra feat. Granted, quickened reconstruct is obviously a far better means to self healing, and typically a sorc doesn't need a whole lot of skill points, but these can be some decent reasons.

Plus you have to consider the fact that some folks don't want to do the same old cookie cutter, "everybody and their dog made" one kind of builds.

[tinyelvis]

First off visible dps-meter would be a really really bad idea, BUT thank god this is not really possible :) (I mean yes it is, but would require a real lot of work^^) ... I mean how does the engine now which attacks you will cycle, which weapons of those you have in your inventory you will use, when you will use which boosts/clickies, will you switch to your optimal weapons all the time when encountering different foes? which spells will you cycle? dps varies greatly when encountering different foes (different AC, DR, saves, SR, resists, ...) ... I mean it would be somehow possible by the engine logging how well you did the last time you ran that specific quest ... but I dont see this happen (just imagine the insane amount of resources required for that) ... and will need an ai implementation that actually tries to figure out your typical playstyle and reaction time and, and, and, .... not gonna happen ;)

Have you ever noticed the little numbers floating above the head of a mob you damaged. Well guess what, that is the damage you are doing. Guess what else. Those numbers dont just appear and disappear into some magic ether. They are associated with just you and the damage you do. You actually are also sitting in front of this thing called a computer. Software runs on this thing and it specializes in counting up all sorts of little numbers.

Knowing the above. Program the software to keep a running total of all of the numbers and then .... wait for it.... print it out in the quest log. You could then have it do the really tricky thing of taking your number and dividing it by the sum of all the damage produced in the quest by other party members.

As someone else suggested, you could do the same for damage taken. Though not a perfect index, it would have more meaning than whether someone plays a WF or how many hitpoints his toon has. Lacking real problem solving skills and game knowledge, the Neanderthals and brain dead masses need some simple way to choose party members. Give them this.

[Plutocracy]

Although for the shroud on normal this is clearly overboard by the Raid leader there is two points for the OP.


2. Why are you making a human sorc anyway? Where the game is at warforge sorc are just far superior from a surviveability standpoint.

It was on normal. Also, if you read my initial post it answers your question: "the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off."

Sorcs are feat starved, I end up with +3 more DC on EVERY spell as a human than as a WF. This helps with necro spells, and saves on disintigrate, web, (chain)(ball)lightning, etc...

I don't play epics, feel its too much of a grind to run same content over and over, would rather just TR and play the other 90% of the game again.

I get that WF are more survivable, but its not like I'm a dwarf or something. Even if I was, whatever, could still do well.

[Philibusta]

WF aren't a race. They're a production line. Like Hyundais.

OP: Maybe you weren't the Droid they were looking for.


WF aren't a race. They're a production line. Like Toyotas.


FYP. Never breaks down, ever!

Only WF Barbs and Monks are like Toyotas. None of them know when it's time to slow down. :p

[Iwinbyrollup]

Yes OP! Bow before the Halflings!

Way, way down!

[morticianjohn]

It was on normal. Also, if you read my initial post it answers your question: "the extra feat for wiz PL, healing amp, +3 CHA, and heal scrolls seems like an okay trade off."

Sorcs are feat starved, I end up with +3 more DC on EVERY spell as a human than as a WF. This helps with necro spells, and saves on disintigrate, web, (chain)(ball)lightning, etc...

I don't play epics, feel its too much of a grind to run same content over and over, would rather just TR and play the other 90% of the game again.

I get that WF are more survivable, but its not like I'm a dwarf or something. Even if I was, whatever, could still do well.

What does a sorc need a necro DC (or enchantment for that matter) for in non-epic content? 2-3 tics of acid rain kills (almost) anything or if you really want to splurge acid blast is as good as wail at insta killing.

[Cogdoc]

1 - Warforged while being a solid and forgiving race choice for new players (nonF2P obviously) are not the best choice for sorcerers regarding game mechanics, if we are already going down this min/max route. Best choice for a seasoned player would be human atm, drow coming up nicely, and only after those WF and the rest.

2 - I still play WF sorcerer, because as an other sensible poster already said, its my game, I play what I like, how I like. I purely play robots, even when they are obviously not the best choice, because *oh the horror* I like them. If I would like the look of helf chicks, I would not play robots just because they do +1 damage.

3 - In most cases you will get a feel about which party member is more useful than others without reading any dps charts, combat logs or kill counts. Its just visible. If I am in a party with paladins and knights in shiny armor, and they all stand around the corner waiting for me to go ahead and lead on with my sorcerer = get all aggro all the time, I know that they are either new, or generally dont know how to play their role.

You can tell that about healers and rogues, and gerenally all the roles if you have a bit of experience in the game already. I dont mean that we should exclude all the underperforming players, quite the contrary, we should embrace them and teach them in a careful and polite way. What I mean is that by no means we need tools like dps meters in DDO to judge player skill. A pair of eyes is sufficient...:)

Cogdoc

[tinyelvis]

3 - In most cases you will get a feel about which party member is more useful than others without reading any dps charts, combat logs or kill counts. Its just visible. If I am in a party with paladins and knights in shiny armor, and they all stand around the corner waiting for me to go ahead and lead on with my sorcerer = get all aggro all the time, I know that they are either new, or generally dont know how to play their role.


Cogdoc

This is the problem. People who think they have a "Feel" for what is right. So many folks also think the visible stats correlate closely with performace. The problem is not the new players but the somewhat experienced players who think they have a feel for the almost infinitely complex game. Currently stats like class, hitpoints, and race are used. These are often very poor indicators of performance.

In your example above, perhaps you put out the most DPS and where the most survivable party member. Maybe you should have the role then of leading the charge. At the very least it seems they were confused and from your comments its clear you were clearly confused about who the candidate SHOULD be.

A DPS metric if setup correctly would be much better than current metrics used. In this way, before a quest started (say shroud) the party leader could have some real guidance (above some gut feel) whether normal, hard, or elite should be attempted. In a quest like epic VON 6 or TOD, the party leader may have second thoughts about putting the guy with the highest DPS and damage capability (usually the sorcerer) on kiting duty.

Upon conclusion of the quest. Folks could then get a real sense who contributed and will often be inspired to modify their play or build. Healers might question their focus of healing and modify for the good their play. Melee might actually take debuffing (like greater sunder) serious. New players would see what values vets actually get and inquire why. Just putting up HPs has lead to a huge across the server increase in player hps in just a few weeks (I dont claim this is necessarily good or bad, but it definitely happened.) A stat that more closely relates to performance would easily do the same for player performance.

A simple metric that shows damage output divided by party damage would do wonders here. Perhaps in this way. So called experienced players would stop dictating party roles based on class, race, and/or hitpoints and more on actual performance. Honestly, the only reason I see not to do it is that it might expose a lot of charlatans and lead to much embarrassment on their part.

[morticianjohn]

1 - Warforged while being a solid and forgiving race choice for new players (nonF2P obviously) are not the best choice for sorcerers regarding game mechanics, if we are already going down this min/max route. Best choice for a seasoned player would be human atm, drow coming up nicely, and only after those WF and the rest.

Cogdoc

Coming from the perspective of someone who has been an end game healer for quite awhile I totally disagree. I've played with good sources and bad sorcs of all races and by far the WF are superior. If it was even close I wouldn't say this but scroll healing/SF pots can not replace quickened reconstruct and survivability that comes from being WF. You can min max builds all you want but in practice I feel much more confidence in the group if the sorc is WF.

Still play what you want and it shouldn't matter except maybe the most extreme circumstances.

[goodspeed]

ummm... the crystal hits back now?

ha ha!

I like how some people even still cast ice storm and **** on that thing. 1 ball of ice aimed and it's down.

If anything shows up just whip a disco ball and let displace save the knockdowns. Nuke em, freeze em, let em dance, all the same.

[Jsbeer]

A point that deserves to be re-mentioned is that perhaps the raid leader was looking for the safest route to completion. True a human sorc will outperform an equivalent WF sorc. BUT the WF sorc will usually have higher HP and (hopefully quickened) reconstruct which massively adds to their survivability when in a typical PUG.

Not saying the leader was right to decline a fleshy sorc, especially in normal, but its not a ridiculous attitude to have either.