Take care of your healers, please.

[protokon]

Did a LOB tonight, took a few first timers through it. I am a bit upset at the outcome - the second healer ran out of scrolls (didn't have any pots to drink either) so I ended up solo healing for nearly half the raid (with my handy guildy artificer who tossed scrolls when he could). Drank 14 pots to complete the raid after a near wipe. Our caster also drank 4.

We had a few first timers in the raid. I don't mind taking first timers, really. I don't mind teaching, I don't mind people making mistakes. What I do mind, is people not contributing to the resources consumed.

There are plenty of times a healer shines and drinks pots / uses a ridiculous amount of scrolls to keep the party going. a lot of the times it is the difference between completing, and wasting 45 minutes getting to the near end of a raid and just wiping. if your not playing a healer, show a little courtesy - toss a major pot or two at them. if you don't have any, toss 10k plat at them to help pay for scrolls.

I am seriously bothered that I mentioned 3 times to the party to donate pots to the caster who we wouldn't have completed without, not to mention myself. crickets each time. I am disgusted as the cleric who ate the entire 14 pot bill, that I had to mail all 4 pots to this guy just out of respect for him contributing.

I will probably think twice before taking newcomers to this raid again. very frustrated indeed. perhaps I will start having to charge entry to the group, as stupid as that is.

[BDS]

This is part of the reason why I rarely pug my healers unless I know a good amount of the players in the runs. I don't mind downing pots and using resources, but getting atleast some back would be nice.

At some point as a healer you just have to say to yourself, these people dont deserve to be dragged through the raid by my resources. Newcomers are fine on normal LoB as long as they are equipped and willing to listen. It is when they are not that I have problems using my resources to get the completion. Things go wrong, disconnects happen, but nothing annoys me more then people not listening and being SP sponges due to it.

LoB is a bit tricky because its such a pain to run back out to and I guess it depends on the circumstances but I wouldn't be likely to chug 14 pots on anything less than epic. Part of the problem seems to have stemmed from the other healer was unprepared as well.

[Ssdprref]

Come on man, Head up and keep forward.
If you don't teach US, then who will?.

[protokon]

Come on man, Head up and keep forward.
If you don't teach US, then who will?.

speaking of teach, keep your eyes open on the Thelanis boards. I have big plans coming soon :)

[SaIamander]

speaking of teach, keep your eyes open on the Thelanis boards. I have big plans coming soon :)

Is it time for that class with the banana and the condom again? :D

[Rasczak]

I don't think many new players understand resource use. They get to have a hireling babysitting them all the way up to raiding levelling (and hirelings drink pots to!!!).

I go through crazy resources sometimes because I get bored and start tossing DP's and bb's etc around a little to much, or comet fall a portal to death :D

It's also to easy to "escape" at the end of the raid with the mentality of, "someone else will get it".
If you need to guarentee resource replacement, then you have to either have a buy in or run with people you know.

[DrawingGuy]

Well, when it comes to us noobs that haven't played proper healers, don't always realize the cost associated (expensive mats for buffs, pots, scrolls, etc). But if a party cleric ever makes a comment to that fact, I'm always willing to give some pp to cover that. Unfortunately I would hesitate to pay an upfront cost for a party unless I knew the cleric and that he was good and worth the mats/funds.

However as a frenzied zerker main (self-hurting and **** AC that goes with that) AND being a noob, I want to start carrying needed items to support/reward people that keep me alive. Have a suggested list of items to stock myself with?

[somenewnoob]

That's just kind of a crappy thing to do.

I'll mail a cleric a pot or two if they go above and beyond the call in a raid. Had a part 4 shroud wipe when U12 hit and this guy chugged a couple trying to keep the only other person alive going, we wiped but I mailed him a couple for his trouble.

I've got a mid level cleric and I don't know if I even want to cap her just because of the crazy resources that are sometimes needed.

[cdr]

Easy: Don't use pots if there wasn't an up-front pot buyin. If the raid wipes, well maybe the leader'll consider a buy-in next time. You don't have anyone to blame but yourself if you use any resource not acquired up front.

[Chette]

While I respect your position, I don't particularly agree with it. Yes, there are occasions when my arcane or divine will use a large amount of resources, it hurts the pocketbook a bit, but I move on. I move on because 99% of the time I use no resources.

My main, a divine caster, has two greensteel items, not 6 like some of my other melee characters. She has one epic item which required a valuable scroll, not five like some of my other melee characters. If I decide that I need some more red scales or scrolls, I jump on my main and go solo farm epics, or drag a group of thugs with me if I feel like being lazy.

In short, the amount of income I bring in on any of my casters, divine or arcane, FAR outstrips the occasional resources I use. I am more than willing to use those resources to help a group succeed if they have all put in a good effort, and if I have reason to think that using those resources will result in a success. I wouldn't ask another player to supplement that resource use, especially not a new player, who might not have character they can use to farm new income.

The only situations I can see asking for resources would be from a repeat offender, or somebody who was clearly making no effort, despite knowing better.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Did a LOB tonight, took a few first timers through it. I am a bit upset at the outcome - the second healer ran out of scrolls (didn't have any pots to drink either) so I ended up solo healing for nearly half the raid (with my handy guildy artificer who tossed scrolls when he could). Drank 14 pots to complete the raid after a near wipe. Our caster also drank 4.

We had a few first timers in the raid. I don't mind taking first timers, really. I don't mind teaching, I don't mind people making mistakes. What I do mind, is people not contributing to the resources consumed.

There are plenty of times a healer shines and drinks pots / uses a ridiculous amount of scrolls to keep the party going. a lot of the times it is the difference between completing, and wasting 45 minutes getting to the near end of a raid and just wiping. if your not playing a healer, show a little courtesy - toss a major pot or two at them. if you don't have any, toss 10k plat at them to help pay for scrolls.

I am seriously bothered that I mentioned 3 times to the party to donate pots to the caster who we wouldn't have completed without, not to mention myself. crickets each time. I am disgusted as the cleric who ate the entire 14 pot bill, that I had to mail all 4 pots to this guy just out of respect for him contributing.

I will probably think twice before taking newcomers to this raid again. very frustrated indeed. perhaps I will start having to charge entry to the group, as stupid as that is.

Sad fact is that many of the culprits of this type of behavior are those that can well afford to cough up a pot or two or even some plat. Pure selfishness.

[B0ltdrag0n]

**** auto log out ate my post :(

so TL;DR

Chette that is simply not the case. Proto is not saying anyone was obligated to pick up a tab, only that it was rude for the comment to be outright ignored. If people had explained they didn't have (in game resources) to help no annoyance would be felt.

[danotmano1998]

Happens...

If I have them, I use them. If I don't, I'll mention it when things start getting close.
If all my sp is gone and people are dying because scroll healing just isn't up to the job?

Well, sorry, did the best I could with the resources I had.
(Recent TOD wipe because of this.. Sorry guys, not my fault the other healer forgot to put his boots on!!)

[Jaid314]

odds are good that many of them could have easily had stuff to contribute to healers, however. just save the mnemonics you gain as you level up.

[protokon]

That's just kind of a crappy thing to do.

I'll mail a cleric a pot or two if they go above and beyond the call in a raid. Had a part 4 shroud wipe when U12 hit and this guy chugged a couple trying to keep the only other person alive going, we wiped but I mailed him a couple for his trouble.

I've got a mid level cleric and I don't know if I even want to cap her just because of the crazy resources that are sometimes needed.
The horror stories are actually quite uncommon. that is probably the first lord of blades in 10 runs that I've even had to drink pots - I took a bunch of newcomers in a rather unorthodox group setup, and to make things worse, the second healer came unprepared. In all fairness, I should have let the group wipe - but I value my time more than a few major pots, so I chugged away just to complete. The fact that nobody had the common courtesy to donate or support me was a slap in the face and showed me the lack of appreciation for such effort - which is discouraging for someone who is relatively good to newbs trying to get into raids.



Easy: Don't use pots if there wasn't an up-front pot buyin. If the raid wipes, well maybe the leader'll consider a buy-in next time. You don't have anyone to blame but yourself if you use any resource not acquired up front.
Think you missed the point here - I'm not upset that I had to use resources, I am discouraged because I went above and beyond (so did the caster) to complete the raid for a group of unprepared players, and they were not even grateful enough to help with the resource consumption. And people wonder why veterans refuse to bring noobs into their raids...


Well, when it comes to us noobs that haven't played proper healers, don't always realize the cost associated (expensive mats for buffs, pots, scrolls, etc). But if a party cleric ever makes a comment to that fact, I'm always willing to give some pp to cover that. Unfortunately I would hesitate to pay an upfront cost for a party unless I knew the cleric and that he was good and worth the mats/funds.

However as a frenzied zerker main (self-hurting and **** AC that goes with that) AND being a noob, I want to start carrying needed items to support/reward people that keep me alive. Have a suggested list of items to stock myself with?
Simply take a major pot from time to time when you complete quests. having a couple on hand to donate when needed (which is not all the time - actually, I find it uncommon that I even need to drink pots) can help when someone goes above and beyond to save a raid. Barbarians are much less a burden than you think, keep in mind healing amp + staying in a tight group with party members will maximize healing efficiency and healers will love you for it.

[Zenako]

It is unfortunate that one of the dominant play styles in many quests presupposes that there is an unlimited amount of healing on tap. That using tactics or ways of reducing damage is pointless when you can merely outheal the incoming damage. Well, there are times that works easily and there are clearly times that does not work. Compound this with the desire to complete quests in a little time as possible that many prefer, which further negates other recover over time boosts and features. As long as the quest does not have an overall timer (VOn6 for example) or a need to kill within x minutes or it becomes stupid hard, then that leaves open the possibilities for a lot alternative approaches to overcoming quests which will succeed, although they do take longer.

If I need the quest or something from it, I will drink/use resources as required, but if it is not something I have a stake in other than helping others, I will be reluctant to use pots most of the time (scrolls are another matter, since I view them as the cleric equivalent to CSW pots for melees.)

[Ministry]

~snip~
I will probably think twice before taking newcomers to this raid again. very frustrated indeed. perhaps I will start having to charge entry to the group, as stupid as that is.

This is the reason I stopped playing my healers with anyone other than a full run of people I know, or at least full of a guild I know.

This is one of the reasons I stopped playing DDO.

It wasn't just the average level of quality of play that stopped me from wanting to play as much as it was the average level of qualities of players.

We've always had bastiches in the game, but if they were competent, at least you could put up with their attitudes.

In any guild I was in... X, The Unbound, Legion, and Archangels, we ALWAYS took a pot count and compensated casters, or you were within your guild and / or friends and never worried about pot counts, because it always came around that someone else was healing when you weren't.

For me, it was newer players who thought they knew it all, but DEFINITELY didn't and who also had the most atrocious manners / mannerisms.

No thank yous for carrying them, no pots or scrolls back when you spent your whole time saving their arses.

So vets are ****ed at newbs and noobs and they are conversely ****ed because the vets aren't there to help them.

So, I stopped playing. Now and then I drop in to see if its any better, pug a little here and there. Well, still afk and less interested.

[B0ltdrag0n]

This is not a vet vs. new player thread. It has nothing to do with that. Nor does it have to do with quality of play. This is only about manners. The only reason pots were used was due to half the party being their first run, and LOB has a learning curve of at least a couple runs. We completed so it wasn't a lack of play skill so much as a lack of experience.

Please don't equate experience with play skill, nor get into a argument about it in a thread that is discussing etiquette. Something, I might point out, also is a learned and acquired skill set.

[Xyfiel]

Haven't played my healer in a pug since a elite shroud(announced it was a elite run after I stepped in quest, was when portal was still buggy). We had to stop the group between 4 and 5 so me and the other healer could buy more mana pots. 36 store majors, was given nothing. Not even the ones in the chests. Between me, the cleric, the bard, and one wizard, we went thru 100+. We mentioned how many at the end, multiple times. Everyone looted and left. Glad to help some noobs, but after 10$ of real money spent, from now on they can go without me.

[taurean430]

For the at level Titan Elite we ran on Khyber last night we only had one person dedicated to healing. That raid can be brutal at level on a divine. I was running my pally. One of the ways to help out that isn't too expensive on a melee toon is to supply some heal scrolls. Cost me like 10k to pick up 50 to pass to our party healer along with a couple of greater pots I'd looted along the way. It's not much, but it helps quite a bit when either running something difficult, or a raid where things can go pear shaped quickly.

Showing a willingness to share the cost is one of the best ways to foster goodwill imo. And I run divines myself as well...

[protokon]

Showing a willingness to share the cost is one of the best ways to foster goodwill

This is almost my exact point...

I didn't care that I didn't get my pots back. what I cared about was people not caring enough to even offer anything, even when asked. especially people who knowingly got carried through it.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Proto, I was taught long ago by yours & several other guilds a long time ago to ask for a pot count at the end of a raid.
To this day I still do it.

Even now on the TR Im enjoying, in regular quests I do that.

I agree with the thread & OP for sure.

But things have changed a little. I've seen people demanding compensation. I booted a guildie for doing just that in a shroud.

Asking, or at least watching the blue bars & how they manage them, then offering is the right thing to do.

But then again, it depends on whom you're running with.

This is why Thelanis and all the guilds Ive known thru the years is awesome.

+1

[Djeserit]

My observation is that, as a healer, I never use many resources until a quest goes bad. When things go well, all is smooth, people are happy and get their loot. They even offer me a pot maybe. When I didn't need it.

When things go bad, even into a wipe, which even the best cleric can't always prevent;
then people are unhappy, leave quickly, don't offer me anything.

So I just maybe don't invest so much trying to keep things going. I cut my losses quickly and get out. I hope this doesn't upset people who expect me to go all in on their raid.

But if it does, well enough people know me and know I can heal a raid. I don't need love from the kind who expect to be carried.

I am at peace with it and happy to play a healer as my 'main'. Just got to get to the end of this @#$@ completionist!

[sirgog]

After a pot-intensive run (and they do sometimes happen), I've started asking people 'If you get raid loot this run, please give 3/5/10/20 Majors to the healers'.

Most people are fine with that. I had a pretty ugly elite VOD recently that saw ~50 pots used raidwide, but after winning the roll on Tharne's Goggles I wasn't at all unhappy to pony up 25 of those.

[Crankymonky]

I know that after every raid, whether I lead it or not, I always ask for a pot count. It makes people aware of resource consumption and acts as a reminder to reimburse your arcanes and divines, for those familiar with this etiquette.

With rare exception, at the end of any raid, I make sure to reimburse all arcanes and divines 100% of their pot usage. Personally, I don't reimburse scrolls as I expect people to be using scrolls. My goal is always to use 0 pots, but I don't care what our scroll consumption looks like. However, for newer players, scrolls might be expensive, and helping them pay for them: helpful.

While I usually try and reimburse a significant amount of the potions, I am not always happy to do so. It pains me when a healer drinks potions unnecessarily or with no discretion. For whatever reason, many healers don't use scrolls when raid healing (or what I'll call conservation mode). As a result, their pot usage will be higher. Combine this with the fact that those who don't use scrolls are the people less skilled at healing (according to what I value in healing, namely SP conversation), and you often have people drinking multiple pots in a situation that required zero.

In raids that my guild or I lead, we often will instruct a healer not to pot, to slow down on sp usage, or to let the other healer take over. By doing this, not only do we limit pot usage, but hopefully motivate people to change their healing ways and attempt to not use potions.

But hey, everyone enjoys something different. For some, they enjoy buying store pots and drinking them like crazy. For me, I enjoy using 0 pots (and sometimes 0 sp).

Protokon, even though I wasn't in the raid that you were talking about, I'm mailing you the four potions that the arcane drank. Why? Because it rewards people to reimburse potions.

[DakotanSky]

speaking of teach, keep your eyes open on the Thelanis boards. I have big plans coming soon :)

Hola FirstAid, you allowed me to join your guild run for LOB my on my healer this week. It was my 1st run through and you really made the quest seem easy. Only used half of the scrolls I purchased for the run and still had 1/4 of my sp left at the end of the quest. I will definitely run more pug raids on my healer after that education. I am looking forward to this 'teach' on the Thelanis boards. Maybe I could learn a few of the other raids out there. Well, enough of the admiration, back to work.

[FacepalmWTF]

14 pots! Did you raise anyone 14 times? Did the lord of blades drop 14 Litanys? 14... 14.... 14........

I have a similar view as Ranit's post above. I'm usually happy to share my pots to ease a healer's burden but have seen some overheal to the extreme and be exceedingly inefficient. When that kind of healer whines I find myself reluctant to send them any.

On the other hand, I know you're not that kind of healer Firstaid, so am sorry to hear you got snubbed by the very kind of puggers you have been so generous to teach. Having to solo heal LOB with lots of newcomers sounds very painful. I hope your message gets through to at least some, though I suspect most of the people who should be reading the OP never actually check the forums.

Personally, what bothers me most are people who only play melee toons / toons that never need to pot or scroll and yet don't regularly offer up resources in raids. I've met a few of those. Doesn't seem to bother them that others bring their blue bars and use resources so they can enjoy the autoattack-watch-scrolling-DPS-numbers that is their entire DDO experience, without giving some consideration.

[jeremyt]

holy effin el!

i got those pots in the mail from you I figured because you got some love from the newbs and they just didnt comprehend that the arcane had to pull out the stops as well. I had no idea they where coming from the firstaid pot fund exclusively. I feel dirty accepting those pots, they shall be returned shortly

[B0ltdrag0n]

I tossed a handful of pots back at First for his efforts there Jeremy don't feel dirty. Just assume they were mine you got ;)

[jeremyt]

heh i already tossed em back. no worries tim deserves em, its the principalities smokie

and facepalm: this definitely wasnt a situation where the blue bars where wasting SP and playing stupid. Me and tim have played the clutch roles in LoB many many times now and we both work our toons very well in that raid. I dont think its possible anyone there could view our performance otherwise.

[Dragaer]

Tim and I have played the clutch roles in LoB many many times now

Hey captain clutch, that isn't what Facepalm was saying ;)

What Ranit (aka snuggie man) said and Facepalm referenced is that over the past year there has been a noticeable amount of overhealing/abuse of their blue bars by inexperienced healers who think spamming their manna is the way to go. Those type of folks do not need to be rewarded with more pots to drink, but with instruction on how to be a better healer.

They didn't point out you or Firstaid.

[protokon]

Hey captain clutch, that isn't what Facepalm was saying ;)

What Ranit (aka snuggie man) said and Facepalm referenced is that over the past year there has been a noticeable amount of overhealing/abuse of their blue bars by inexperienced healers who think spamming their manna is the way to go. Those type of folks do not need to be rewarded with more pots to drink, but with instruction on how to be a better healer.

They didn't point out you or Firstaid.

Very problematic. There are some people who have a very poor feel for healing efficiency, and I've seen a favored soul with a 3k sp pool blow through all his sp healing an AC tank on horoth (taking only badge damage) before sully even drops, out of sheer ignorance. may times these people just consider drinking pots the norm, and often have several hundred store pots. pretty annoying to watch someone sucking down store pots for no reason, just because they can - and more than likely due to them being too lazy to actually learn to heal correctly/efficiently.

[Missing_Minds]

Rather hard to give what I don't carry.

Meaning my non casters do not carry neumonics unless they happen to pull them. I take names and send them via mail after the fact.

Also, only FvS and Clerics tend to be given pots. Never once have I ever been given pots when I've played a bard or arcane. Nor was I given any when I ended up playing party healer when I was on my ranger. (I know, ranger healing the party. But I have done it. :) )

Lastly, I personally tend to pay attention when/if I can to who is doing the healing. I want to say thank you to the correct party, not just assume it was a cleric/fvs who just buffed and piked when the bard did all the healing. (I've been there/done that too many dang times.)

[Zenako]

You know what would be cool. A self reliance bonus to EXPERIENCE. Make it thru a quest without using SP pots for example and you get the 2% bonus (size of bonus hardly matters since it is the principle of the thing). Keep it small so having to fall off the wagon so to speak is not a big hurt.

Group has a 1% bonus for not using any shrines along the way (in quests with shrines that is). Have to use them, no big deal, not much lost, but if you can get thru the quest without, a tiny perk.

Given how much some players obsess over maxing out DPS to the smallest %, there would be some who would treasure hitting those benchmarks too as a gameplay goal.

Just a thought. Combine them all into a standing 5% Self Reliant bonus (granted at the end IF things are successful). Loose 2% for drinking SP pots, 1% for shrining, 1% for using any Store only items, and 1% for normal hirelings.) Small bonuses. Enough to encourage self reliance but not enough to be a big hit.

[Dragaer]

Very problematic. There are some people who have a very poor feel for healing efficiency.....pretty annoying to watch someone sucking down store pots for no reason, just because they can - and more than likely due to them being too lazy to actually learn to heal correctly/efficiently.

Exactly the point. Running into any casting class not carrying scrolls, and tons of them. Healers carrying heal scrolls you would think is a given but it isn't. When every class that can cast spells should carry scrolls they don't have mem'd (if they use a scroll instead of a spell when they can they gain another slot)...GH, Heal, Reconstruct, hero's feast, mass invis, break enchantment etc etc etc.... If you can use a scroll instead of using a spell slot that is the smarter way to do it, especially for classes with less slots such as FvS, Bard, Sorc, Arti. A lot of folks do not realize how much better they will become, which is why I said they need instructions instead of just passing them pots to compensate them for their poor play.

[cwfergtx]

Having a number of clerics myself, I too know that feeling. Which is why when I do wtt or wts items in the games I take a quick peek to see what class they are. Clerics and Favored Souls always gets better deals from me. Then if I am doing wtb if a cleric depending on the level of cleric I always add extra pp to the deal to help them with their costs as they level.
Then if I have ran with the particular cleric or favored soul a few times I even give more to them. When I notice that the divine and arcane casters are using pots in the raids I don't hesitate to mail them replacement.

[Vint]

I don't think many new players understand

This is the reason I dont pug much outside of people I know.

[jeremyt]

Hey captain clutch, that isn't what Facepalm was saying ;)

What Ranit (aka snuggie man) said and Facepalm referenced is that over the past year there has been a noticeable amount of overhealing/abuse of their blue bars by inexperienced healers who think spamming their manna is the way to go. Those type of folks do not need to be rewarded with more pots to drink, but with instruction on how to be a better healer.

They didn't point out you or Firstaid.

heh, captain clutch. didnt think much of the word till you brought it out and highlighted it. good times/thumbs up :)

I think shroud healing makes some newer healers think endgame is all about spamming masses. Obviously a very bad idea in most all situations. Had a healer that spot healed me in lob a few times..using mass cure mod. WF sorc w/ 0 heal amp and no healers friend, running around all by myself, maybe mass cure mod isnt the hottest choice? :p