Is there any reason to play a cleric instead of a favored soul?

[MRMechMan]

As someone who has capped both cleric and fvs on the same character with very similar gear, here are some thoughts...

What do clerics get that fvs do NOT?

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.

Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame. Where are all the undead? It's generally better to use turns to heal/burst the undead anyway.

Compared to what a FVS gets...

-capstone 10 DR
-3x 10 stacking energy resistance
-weapon enhancements
-+6 refex saves
-wings
-700+ odd sp
-capstone free searing light/cure light wounds
-up to 50% more divine punishment damage from AOV and -50% FORT. That is HUGE, particularly with the new boss fort. Bring a fvs, or the rogues are useless....
-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
-lantern archon
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells

...think I got everything?



Solutions?

Spells-Improve the weaker choices at each level to make the 4th, 5th and 6th options something that is somewhat decent. Give divines more than 5 choices for 9th level spells! Make fvs at least SOMEWHAT regret the lack of those spells slots. They ought to be trading SOMETHING-I know sorcs at least feel slightly less versitle than wizards. Fvs do not feel that way in the slightest.

Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."

FvS SHOULD be more powerful than clerics as they are harder to unlock, but they should at least somewhat close...

I've probably ticked off a lot of clerics by posting this but anyone who has capped both a cleric and a fvs knows that they are barely compareable.

And I'm not looking for a fvs nerf either. People need more reasons to play divines.

Just SOME of those reasons should point towards cleric over fvs. Right now that isn't the case.

[Antheal]

If you think it's bad now, just wait until the Beacon of Hope FvS Prestige is released...

I, for one, can't wait!

[wax_on_wax_off]

Cleric is much more versatile when it comes to multiclassing.
Cleric is much easier to level up (easy to swap spells as appropriate, better spells sooner).
Cleric is much better vs undead (not turn but burst), not too relevant at end game except abbot/SoS but still useful while leveling.
Cleric gets more use out of wisdom (SP, DC, maximum caster level) while FvS are split.

I've not played a pure cleric yet (I'd like to but other builds first) but I love my splashed clerics (clonks mostly).

[maddmatt70]

FVS are overall better then clerics, but clerics do have some advantages. There are actually a number of quality spells - not a ton, but a number of spells such that a FVS has to make choices. The cleric capstone is actually pretty strong although it is much maligned on these forums because it is not very well understood. The capstone is nice in places like LOB raid for e.g.. The multi-classing as a cleric is easier to do. That is really about it. FVS are just about better in every other aspect of play other then1 or 2 damage points for the melee clerics sigh...

[morticianjohn]

I find the aura ticks to be far more valuable than you make them out to be. Let's use the example of epic velah (PRE U12 since I haven't done that one since and TR'd my cleric anyway). She attacked so slow that if there were 2 clerics with aura you would only have to cast mass heal half to 2/3 as much. Also top ups mid combat are frequently useful. A FvS can't justify a spell to heal 2-3 people for 25-50 HP but those HP may mean the difference between life and death when the enemy hits you with a cometfall. Epic laitat I can keep the party healed with aura and bursts alone except when she's swinging. Last time I was there we had her down to ~3% and she hit cometfall 3x the cleric aura saved us from a wipe as the 8 or so people still alive stood up with less than 100hp each.

I can't go over each situation where the cleric aura is superb but let's just say I miss it on my FvS. I know the silver flame capstone CLW can make up for not having aura in some cases but don't sweep this and the many other benefits to CLR aside. Wax on wax off mentioned the level up process and the ability to splash monk (IMHO better than a FvS). There are more spells that are situationally useful end game that is troublesome for a FvS.

[epopotamus]

Cleric is much more versatile when it comes to multiclassing.
Cleric is much easier to level up (easy to swap spells as appropriate, better spells sooner).
Cleric is much better vs undead (not turn but burst), not too relevant at end game except abbot/SoS but still useful while leveling.
Cleric gets more use out of wisdom (SP, DC, maximum caster level) while FvS are split.

I've not played a pure cleric yet (I'd like to but other builds first) but I love my splashed clerics (clonks mostly).

adding to the list

Cleric's are currently also the best group healers with aura/burst and the big mass heals (since they get +25% extra healing onto emp heals...and a lot of fvs's go more offensively specced and might not take emp heals at all)

With the current PrE's fvs are slightly more offensively focussed, while clr are more defensively focussed.
But they still play almost identical.

[MRMechMan]

Cleric is much more versatile when it comes to multiclassing.
Cleric is much easier to level up (easy to swap spells as appropriate, better spells sooner).
Cleric is much better vs undead (not turn but burst), not too relevant at end game except abbot/SoS but still useful while leveling.
Cleric gets more use out of wisdom (SP, DC, maximum caster level) while FvS are split.

I've not played a pure cleric yet (I'd like to but other builds first) but I love my splashed clerics (clonks mostly).

Clerics are more versitile to multiclass, I'll give you that. Splashing 2 for evasion means only 1 9th level spell on a fvs, which does hurt (I did that...energy drain or mass heal was a tough choice). 18cleric/2monk is much more forgiving.

I wouldn't say clerics are easier to level up. There are generally only 3 spells that are useful at each level. Sometimes less. You get heal and blade barrier a bit earlier, and implosion at level 17 on a pure cleric probably makes the vale quite fun. But that content isn't really an issue regardless.

Blade barrier6/destruction7/heal6/mass heal9/slay living5/implosion9/divine power4/divine favor1/nightshield1/resist energy2/divine punishment5/holy aura8/energy drain9/symbol of death8

are spells I cast in just about every quest

cometfall6/soundburst2/remove curse3/FOM4/DW4/raise5/res7/true res9/greater command5/magic circle3.

are spells I just about always keep slotted. Most spell levels on a cleric I have to fill the 5th and 6th slots with something that just about never gets cast. There just aren't that many good spells.

1st level=2
2nd level=2
3rd level=2
4th level=3
5th level=4
6th level=3
7th level=2
8th level=2
9th level=4

So the only issue if I switched to fvs right now would be dropping a single 9th level spell.

Clerics DO get more out of wisdom, but it's not really a huge advantage considering fvs only need to start with 10-12ish charisma to cast 9th level spells, get more SP anyway than cleric, and can achieve similar DCs of instakills via aura of menace.

I would miss the aura definitely and the % to empower heal sometimes-when running with undergeared warforged melee with very little amp or something.

As for the capstone, the char is question is a gimpy wf clonk atm so doesn't have it...I can see how it can be very useful in some situations. But I would much rather have the fvs capstone personally...not that I had that one either...

[erikbozelie]

ow joy. i am sorry, these topics just come and go every now and then. and i seem to have a habit of getting negative reputation for them.

as far as it comes to fvs to cleric comparisonA.

A cleric has the ability to splash, adding other classes features and abilities to its own while losing nothing important. a splashed favorite soul will lose a huge amount of abilities.

due to this inability to splash a fvs will lose to any specific cleric build.

here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=332824) is the thread some while ago where we already discussed every single statement and broken it down.

conclusion:
if your a new player and don't know how to multiclass: go fvs, its a good average class and hard to screw up.
if your a veteran player and love multi classes: go cleric, takes more ability to get the build right but if you do, but cannot be beaten.

call me a disbeliever, but i have yet to see any fvs build that can even compare to the 2 specific cleric build posted as a challenge on that thread to this date. ( there used to be more then 225 posts in that thread, but due to allot of namecalling etc. thread got modified).

happy reading
zack

[Koowluh]

I would just like to add one advantage of the cleric over the Favored Soul, which is mostly important for new players: it's free.

Granted, the favored soul can be played too for free, but requires quite a bit of crunching on other toons first, while a cleric pops out of the box ready to be played.

Since the favored soul can be purchased, I always expect it to be a little better than the free alternative, the cleric. I don't expect Turbine to sell "hey, here's another cleric class guys." I do expect them to sell "hey, here's an uber cleric guys!"

The cleric is good for new players to get started on a healer/cleric. The Favored Soul is a good variation for the more advanced player or the player willing to pay some dough for it right at the start.

[arjiwan]

I have a level 20 Cleric as my main. I don't own an FVS. So I will definitely have bias in favor (pun not intended) of the Cleric Class. Here is my opinion:

For a pure level 20 Raid Healer Support / Offensive Caster perspective. Again, I am not saying of multiclassing for DPS or anything. The aim is pure offensive caster / Raid Healer.

FVS is way way stronger.

1. Spell change on the go
Quests are not varied that spell change is needed. All you need is Blade barrier. You can make it level 20 just using BB.

2. Stats
I've seen FVS that has dumped stat their SP stat (I don't know which), and still has more SP than me. Take note, I have Archmagi and even a 150 GS item. Maxxed my Wisdom on all stats and items. I even mistakenly took Mental Toughness becuase it is an old toon. Still the FVS who dump-stated the SP stat has more SP than me.

3. Damage on spells that matters a lot.
BB damage and I think DP damage. FVS > Cleric.

4. Aura and Burst
Yes, I really really like my Aura and bursts. But there are places that I can't use my aura or bursts.
Example is EADQ2. I need to be outside the group to avoid cometfalls. No aura and burst there. I rather have more sp for mass heals.

So why don't I play FVS? I love my gimp cleric, that's why.

[Hellllboy]

FvS Advantages:
H.P.
Capstone
Elemental resist
Weapon Proficiency (w/o use of a Turn)
Wings
Mana
Past Life

Cleric Advantages:
Healing, Healing, Healing
Capstone
Spell versititly
Single Stat based DC/Mana
Heavy Armor
Radiant Aura/Burst

*******************************
It all depends on what you want to do with the character-but you can argue both ways that they had pro's and con's.

Personally I play FvS, but I enjoy my Clerics too. :)

[Candela90]

I prefer very much to platy my FvS, BUT i really miss 2 things on my fvs:
1. Aura, but only when we play by beholders. U can still use bursts with antimagic (at least from what i was told from my cleric friend).
2. I only miss 2 slots. 1 eight and 1 nine level spell.


BUT.
I would never exchange my mana and resists for more spell slots (where only 2-3 are usefull, others are just not beeing used) and AC, that is hardly working.
I mean for scroll farm, long term healing i prefer FvS.

FvS get better dmg with spells, and clerics get stronger healing (their empwoer is prettty cheap with enhanc.). Th problem is I dont even use empower healing or anything on my heals and can heal epics... I prefer to do bettr dmg than overheal (and overhealing seems to me as a mana loss).

But for mutliclass cleric is better. Still Id nevr multiclass cleric or FvS. Theyre too good to multiclass. Maybe some days ago clonk seemed good for me. But as i prefer FvS it would be a bad idea.

About dumping stat. My FvS always have low charisma at start. 10-12 or so. I mean 2 charisma points = 29 sp in end game ... and 2 wisdom points = 1 DC. Much more worthy for a caster. For a melee i think more its the same besides he/she will put more in str than in charisma.

[Habreno]

Put things this way. You look at builds and say" Hmmm... Favored Soul is better because of X, Y, Z and the Cleric has A and B, but neither is really that good.


Aura is awesome HoT, especially when you're doing a bunch of small healing. And it's available to Clerics regardless of race. The Favored soul equivilent, the CLW capstone, is single target that hits more then the aura does. But when the entire party is taking damage, the aura is more beneficial as it is an AoE HoT vs the CLW capstone (which is race and feat specific, mind you) as it is an AoE heal. Plus, the aura is available from level 12, while the capstone is only available at level 20.

Clerics can get 1 higher DC than a Favored Soul from WIS. Therefore, while your Favored Soul has a situationally "higher" DC than a Cleric, with the two together the Cleric will have more DC than the Soul.



I'll definitely post more in a bit. Just what I could think of in the lunch break I have.

[danotmano1998]

Clerics = Aura
Clerics = More spell choices


May as well argue that sorcerors are better than wizards or vise versa.
Matter of opinion and playstyle.

[Meat-Head]

Put things this way. You look at builds and say" Hmmm... Favored Soul is better because of X, Y, Z and the Cleric has A and B, but neither is really that good.


Aura is awesome HoT, especially when you're doing a bunch of small healing. And it's available to Clerics regardless of race. The Favored soul equivilent, the CLW capstone, is single target that hits more then the aura does. But when the entire party is taking damage, the aura is more beneficial as it is an AoE HoT vs the CLW capstone (which is race and feat specific, mind you) as it is an AoE heal. Plus, the aura is available from level 12, while the capstone is only available at level 20.

Clerics can get 1 higher DC than a Favored Soul from WIS. Therefore, while your Favored Soul has a situationally "higher" DC than a Cleric, with the two together the Cleric will have more DC than the Soul.



I'll definitely post more in a bit. Just what I could think of in the lunch break I have.



The aura is pretty big to me. I've been annoyed on my FVS how much i have use mana on myself that I wouldn't use on a cleric. Either that, or I buy heal scrolls to self heal. Annoying either way. For RAIDS I think healing fvs might edge out for the longer ones (eDragon, eChrono). For quests, I like clerics.

[GermanicusMaximus]

A cleric can generate an enormous amount of healing from the Radiant Servant aura if it is well constructed.

When my cleric solos, he seldom has to resort to casting a heal on himself, the aura carries the full load. That leaves my entire blue bar for offensive casting. Since the turns regenerate over time, that means I can solo almost indefinitely. When my cleric solos the SubT, he often stays down there until his Min2 falchion breaks from the wear.

In raids, the aura often has similiar applicability. In LoB, I park my cleric behind the boss while he is being tanked, right with the DPS melee. The aura is enough the heal the DPS melee, and hits the tank with enough healing that it reduces the load on the dedicated tank healer. At the end of the raid, I have enough spell points left to close out the raid. My heal scrolls are getting dusty.

When I start a raid with a FvS, he almost always has more spell points than I do. It usually doesn't take long before I have more than he does.

Of course, FvS are sold as the divine caster easy button. A lot of people buy FvS and believe thats all that it takes to be an uber divine caster. FvS are a lot less uber if you don't take the time to actually learn how to plan a divine caster.

I have FvS unlocked, thanks to my cleric. I will roll a FvS someday, but I really am not in any hurry to do so.

[Firesmall_at]

I keep thinking I want to do a favSoul because their prestige enhancements are for offensive spells. Cleric enhancements are for healing, and buffing.

What kills a Cleric are airship buffs. Before these Cleric spells and the amount of Cleric spells would be needed. After that hour of ship buffs runs out everyone hopes there is a Cleric in the party for the end fight to buff us. Without protections and resists the party will prob wipe.

Aside from all this I will take my Cleric for now with mana pots from the DDO store over the FavSoul simply because I am too lazy to lvl one just for the offensive spell enhancements.

And there are pugs that deserve to stay dead, but that hurts quest completion which would then be a waste of my time.

[goodspeed]

As someone who has capped both cleric and fvs on the same character with very similar gear, here are some thoughts...

What do clerics get that fvs do NOT?

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.

Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame. Where are all the undead? It's generally better to use turns to heal/burst the undead anyway.

Compared to what a FVS gets...

-capstone 10 DR
-3x 10 stacking energy resistance
-weapon enhancements
-+6 refex saves
-wings
-700+ odd sp
-capstone free searing light/cure light wounds
-up to 50% more divine punishment damage from AOV and -50% FORT. That is HUGE, particularly with the new boss fort. Bring a fvs, or the rogues are useless....
-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
-lantern archon
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells

...think I got everything?



Solutions?

Spells-Improve the weaker choices at each level to make the 4th, 5th and 6th options something that is somewhat decent. Give divines more than 5 choices for 9th level spells! Make fvs at least SOMEWHAT regret the lack of those spells slots. They ought to be trading SOMETHING-I know sorcs at least feel slightly less versitle than wizards. Fvs do not feel that way in the slightest.

Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."

FvS SHOULD be more powerful than clerics as they are harder to unlock, but they should at least somewhat close...

I've probably ticked off a lot of clerics by posting this but anyone who has capped both a cleric and a fvs knows that they are barely compareable.

And I'm not looking for a fvs nerf either. People need more reasons to play divines.

Just SOME of those reasons should point towards cleric over fvs. Right now that isn't the case.

You forgot to add they could hypothetically also umd some things. Actually with helves they wouldn't even have to. They just take sorc dili and then all those nice scrolls are available while leveling. (Mainly stoneskin, and displacement.)

And as said before many are still waiting on pre's that hopfully come out before the game shuts down or we world explodes next December some time lol.

Plus theirs one great thing about favored. You can walk into a party duel wielding a couple of daggers whippn BB and whatever else and no one really even notices. But let a cleric start casting spells and have a 2 hander in er hand and all hell breaks loose.

[PurdueDave]

The big advantage is that cleric is free.

Outside that, cleric just needs a good PrE and maybe a few more useful divine spells.

[Habreno]

You forgot to add they could hypothetically also umd some things. Actually with helves they wouldn't even have to. They just take sorc dili and then all those nice scrolls are available while leveling. (Mainly stoneskin, and displacement.)

And so can Clerics. Actually, a Cleric would be even more likely to do this than a Favored Soul, since Clerics use TU quite a bit for all their other uses especially the aura. To sustain this use, many Clerics start with a higher CHA than a Favored Soul would. So UMD is not a valid reason to go Favored Soul, as Clerics can do the exact same thing, and often better.

And as said before many are still waiting on pre's that hopfully come out before the game shuts down or we world explodes next December some time lol.

And this also plauges the Favored Soul. They only have one PrE up to tier 2. Plus, Favored Souls don't even have ToD rings for their PrE's. Clerics do have them, and hopefully when they actually get their PrE's will acquire extra benefits due to tier 3 PrE's affecting ToD set bonuses, which will be unavailable to Favored Souls.

Plus theirs one great thing about favored. You can walk into a party dual wielding a couple of daggers whipping BB and whatever else and no one really even notices. But let a cleric start casting spells and have a 2 hander in er hand and all hell breaks loose.

LOL.


You have no clue how a good solid Cleric can do. I for one TWF while casting spells and solo-healing raids, on a first-life Cleric. A solid cleric will be able to both melee and heal parties, even in epic raids, if they properly gear themselves and build their toons.

The reason you are thinking that a Cleric cannot do more than healing is because a solid Cleric is hard to find. A Favored Soul is a P2P class, so the people who build them have at least a small clue about how a toon is built.

Comments in Red, and below:

When it comes to leveling, Favored Souls get more SP, but they both have fewer spell slots and get spells one level later. While spell slots may not be a problem at cap, they are certainly a factor while leveling. Which do you take at level 4? CMW or energy resists? Or do you grab CSW at level 6, or Protection from Energy?
This comes seriously into play while leveling: Level 8 means the Favored Soul can grab CCW, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, any of the AoE alignment spells. And can only take ONE of those at level 8. Level 10 will let you acquire level 5 spells. But do you take your first mass cure, or do you take that juicy Divine Punishment, or Raise Dead, or Greater Command? And it only gets worse from here. Level 12 means you can grab level 6 spells, and now you're picking from four very solid spells for the level. Heal, MCMW, Banishment, Blade Barrier. And delaying any of those is very hard to do. Level 14 means you can grab level 7 spells. Resurrection, MCSW, or do you grab a mass buff? Or do you grab a soldi instakill-Destruction?
So spell slots are a serious leveling problem.

Second, you don't have the versatility of Turn Undead on a Favored Soul. You can't restore spellpoints to a fellow caster. You can't create an AoE HoT without using spellpoints. You can't increase your own damage without using spellpoints. The healing aura is only one minor factor in this. Turn Undead can also be used for a HoT ranged, though it is solo-target only; up to 3d3 points per tick, 1 tick/2 seconds, 30 second duration.

Third, you are outhealed by a Cleric. Clerics get 75% on Empower Healing; Favored Souls get only 50%. Also, Clerics get an extra 2 caster levels on healing spells. That doesn't sound like much, but it means that with your enhancements, Heal, Mass hits for 539 on a Cleric, but 420 on a Favored Soul. That is quite a large difference of 119 points healed; 22% less healing done. On Heal, which caps at CL 15, you're doing 52.5 less points of healing, for a percentage difference of 14% less healing done (367.5 vs 315). And that adds up quite a bit, especially for tank healing and end-game raiding. And that is even worse if you boost both of them up with a clicky; let us go with 50% on Mass Heal and 75% on Heal. 731.5 vs 570 on Mass Heal and 564.375 vs 483.75, which gives percentile differences of 22% and 14%, as without the clickies (Numbers are excluding any crits with Empower Healing metamagic, as no other metas affect either spell, and full healing lines for heals. Clickies for the second set of numbers is based off Epic Dragon's Eye for Superior Efficacy IX (50% boost to all L9 and lower spells, lasts 1 minute/click) and any randomly generated Superior Devotion VI clicky or either Amrath belt for Superior Devotion VIII (75% boost to all L6/L8 and lower healing spells, lasts 3 minutes/click) and are only modified by the caster level differences of Radiant Servant II and the Empower Healing metamagic difference of 75% vs 50% due to Radiant Servant II.)

[Anneliese]

the CLW capstone (which is race and feat specific, mind you)

Just a quick note, every race can take the CLW capstone. (it locks you into the longsword faith tho..)

[MRMechMan]

Ok did an epic dragon today. Aura was definitely very helpful, as were bursts. Was first healer up, lasted 100%-->30% or so...way longer than I thought with my 1700 or so sp.

But would rather have been fvs still :)

BTW the new velah is...actually a lot of fun!

[goodspeed]

Comments in Red, and below:

When it comes to leveling, Favored Souls get more SP, but they both have fewer spell slots and get spells one level later. While spell slots may not be a problem at cap, they are certainly a factor while leveling. Which do you take at level 4? CMW or energy resists? Or do you grab CSW at level 6, or Protection from Energy?
This comes seriously into play while leveling: Level 8 means the Favored Soul can grab CCW, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, any of the AoE alignment spells. And can only take ONE of those at level 8. Level 10 will let you acquire level 5 spells. But do you take your first mass cure, or do you take that juicy Divine Punishment, or Raise Dead, or Greater Command? And it only gets worse from here. Level 12 means you can grab level 6 spells, and now you're picking from four very solid spells for the level. Heal, MCMW, Banishment, Blade Barrier. And delaying any of those is very hard to do. Level 14 means you can grab level 7 spells. Resurrection, MCSW, or do you grab a mass buff? Or do you grab a soldi instakill-Destruction?
So spell slots are a serious leveling problem.

Second, you don't have the versatility of Turn Undead on a Favored Soul. You can't restore spellpoints to a fellow caster. You can't create an AoE HoT without using spellpoints. You can't increase your own damage without using spellpoints. The healing aura is only one minor factor in this. Turn Undead can also be used for a HoT ranged, though it is solo-target only; up to 3d3 points per tick, 1 tick/2 seconds, 30 second duration.

Third, you are outhealed by a Cleric. Clerics get 75% on Empower Healing; Favored Souls get only 50%. Also, Clerics get an extra 2 caster levels on healing spells. That doesn't sound like much, but it means that with your enhancements, Heal, Mass hits for 539 on a Cleric, but 420 on a Favored Soul. That is quite a large difference of 119 points healed; 22% less healing done. On Heal, which caps at CL 15, you're doing 52.5 less points of healing, for a percentage difference of 14% less healing done (367.5 vs 315). And that adds up quite a bit, especially for tank healing and end-game raiding. And that is even worse if you boost both of them up with a clicky; let us go with 50% on Mass Heal and 75% on Heal. 731.5 vs 570 on Mass Heal and 564.375 vs 483.75, which gives percentile differences of 22% and 14%, as without the clickies (Numbers are excluding any crits with Empower Healing metamagic, as no other metas affect either spell, and full healing lines for heals. Clickies for the second set of numbers is based off Epic Dragon's Eye for Superior Efficacy IX (50% boost to all L9 and lower spells, lasts 1 minute/click) and any randomly generated Superior Devotion VI clicky or either Amrath belt for Superior Devotion VIII (75% boost to all L6/L8 and lower healing spells, lasts 3 minutes/click) and are only modified by the caster level differences of Radiant Servant II and the Empower Healing metamagic difference of 75% vs 50% due to Radiant Servant II.)


sorry man; I read the stuff in red..( well actually a lil after LOL when the rant started I dropped). But that sheer wall of letters, numbers, is tighter then stonewall jacksons ranks. Enter. Sweet Jesus enter.

Now from the looks of the last reply in red you might be going on about prolly a cleric being awesome or something with spells, I see the word clickie a bit, so im guessing gears in there.

At some point i'm guessing you got ****ed about the battle cleric joke thinking it was stating something. Well it wasn't. Anyway that's all.

[Mellkor]

As someone who has capped both cleric and fvs on the same character with very similar gear, here are some thoughts...

What do clerics get that fvs do NOT?

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.

Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame. Where are all the undead? It's generally better to use turns to heal/burst the undead anyway.

Compared to what a FVS gets...

-capstone 10 DR
-3x 10 stacking energy resistance
-weapon enhancements
-+6 refex saves
-wings
-700+ odd sp
-capstone free searing light/cure light wounds
-up to 50% more divine punishment damage from AOV and -50% FORT. That is HUGE, particularly with the new boss fort. Bring a fvs, or the rogues are useless....
-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
-lantern archon
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells

...think I got everything?



Solutions?

Spells-Improve the weaker choices at each level to make the 4th, 5th and 6th options something that is somewhat decent. Give divines more than 5 choices for 9th level spells! Make fvs at least SOMEWHAT regret the lack of those spells slots. They ought to be trading SOMETHING-I know sorcs at least feel slightly less versitle than wizards. Fvs do not feel that way in the slightest.

Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."

FvS SHOULD be more powerful than clerics as they are harder to unlock, but they should at least somewhat close...

I've probably ticked off a lot of clerics by posting this but anyone who has capped both a cleric and a fvs knows that they are barely compareable.

And I'm not looking for a fvs nerf either. People need more reasons to play divines.

Just SOME of those reasons should point towards cleric over fvs. Right now that isn't the case.


This sums up my experience very well also, having multiple capped clerics and FvS's of every flavor!

I think a radiant savant III prestige that adds more of a boost to the aura and bursts are all that is needed to make clerics more competitive. and maybe a better tod set!

[Mellkor]

...call me a disbeliever, but i have yet to see any fvs build that can even compare to the 2 specific cleric build posted as a challenge on that thread to this date. ( there used to be more then 225 posts in that thread, but due to allot of namecalling etc. thread got modified).

happy reading
zack

Ask veteran players who have played both to cap, even those so called "challenge builds" and most will say FvS is better at endgame, hands down. Those challenge builds simply cannot do some things a good Lord of Blades build can do at high-end end game content. I for one can attest to this. Anyone who says otherwise has either not really played both at endgame very much or have only played clerics.

[smatt]

It simply depends... There' sno question that a capped, geared out FvS is VERY powerful end game. But I would say taht for many players, a capped geared out cleric is an easier clas to play as a healer in tight situations, simply due to the amount of spells a cleric can toggle through. It makes it EASIER, not neccesarily better from the "uber tuber" perspective. I much prefer my cleric in pure heal/buffbot situations over my FvS hands down.

That being said clerics DO deserve some love..


But alas...... The POOR whittle monks take all the DDO game love most of the time :eek::D

[MRMechMan]

This sums up my experience very well also, having multiple capped clerics and FvS's of every flavor!

I think a radiant savant III prestige that adds more of a boost to the aura and bursts are all that is needed to make clerics more competitive. and maybe a better tod set!

I actually got a radiant ring yesterday...no one wanted it for some reason...here is the set:

Belt: Superior Ardor VIII clickie, Wizardry VI
Ring: Wisdom +6 (already on both concops, don't need it in a 3rd place thank you) +1 exp charisma (1/2 a turn attempt, amazing)
Set Bonus (here is where it gets good): ONE additional turn undead attempt. "exceptional bonus to turn undead cleric level" (I've hit "turn undead" exactly 10x this life. All of them were in that lich quest in deleras)

UBER. Concops are wiz VI, +6 wis already so...basically giving up 2 slots for +1 exp charisma and 1 turn attempt.

But I also pulled rahkirs so was not too upset. :)


Perhaps I was spoilt by the soloability/raw power of wf palemaster, fvs and earth savant. Cleric just doesn't compare.

But as a raid healer I think they are in the same ballpark, maybe even better in some situations. Still suprised at how many dragon breaths could go as cleric, dinky sp pool almost lasted entire time ^^.

[Mellkor]

I actually got a radiant ring yesterday...no one wanted it for some reason...here is the set:

Belt: Superior Ardor VIII clickie, Wizardry VI
Ring: Wisdom +6 (already on both concops, don't need it in a 3rd place thank you) +1 exp charisma (1/2 a turn attempt, amazing)
Set Bonus (here is where it gets good): ONE additional turn undead attempt. "exceptional bonus to turn undead cleric level" (I've hit "turn undead" exactly 10x this life. All of them were in that lich quest in deleras)

UBER. Concops are wiz VI, +6 wis already so...basically giving up 2 slots for +1 exp charisma and 1 turn attempt.

But I also pulled rahkirs so was not too upset. :)


Perhaps I was spoilt by the soloability/raw power of wf palemaster, fvs and earth savant. Cleric just doesn't compare.

But as a raid healer I think they are in the same ballpark, maybe even better in some situations. Still suprised at how many dragon breaths could go as cleric, dinky sp pool almost lasted entire time ^^.


For a tod radiant savant ring, I would have put +6 cha, +1 excep cha, and a set bonus that adds a healing lore, say 9% + a bonus to crit, that applies to auras and bursts only. This set bonus would stack with regular healing lore for auras/bursts. And maybe also 2 additional turn undeads or something like that.

[MRMechMan]

For a tod radiant savant ring, I would have put +6 cha, +1 excep cha, and a set bonus that adds a healing lore, say 9% + a bonus to crit, that applies to auras and bursts only. This set bonus would stack with regular healing lore for auras/bursts. And maybe also 2 additional turn undeads or something like that.

I think for the non exceptional stat bonus (+6) it is always

barbs/fighters/pally=str
rogue/rangers=dex
wiz=int
cleric/monk/fvs=wis (oh wait there ARE no fvs tod rings, my bad!)
sorc/bard=cha

Even if cha would be better. Clerics=wisdom, apparently. :(

Ironically, the best tod rings for divines are either thamors (6 cha 1 con) or telvis/dragonmarked (6 cha 1 wis). Or Rahkirs if set.

And the best belts barring a few seconds every 3 minutes are either any archmagi belt; or a +6 con/GFL belt for slot consolidation.

[Habreno]

Just a quick note, every race can take the CLW capstone. (it locks you into the longsword faith tho..)

Thank-you. Wasn't sure, thought it was race-specific but apparently I was wrong.


sorry man; I read the stuff in red..( well actually a lil after LOL when the rant started I dropped). But that sheer wall of letters, numbers, is tighter then stonewall jacksons ranks. Enter. Sweet Jesus enter.

Now from the looks of the last reply in red you might be going on about prolly a cleric being awesome or something with spells, I see the word clickie a bit, so im guessing gears in there.

At some point i'm guessing you got ****ed about the battle cleric joke thinking it was stating something. Well it wasn't. Anyway that's all.

I'd love to know what you considered a rant, because there was none in there. I was simply stating fact, and I am correct, because if I wasn't, you would have realized it wasn't a rant. You have not seen a solid Cleric played well, and honestly, I'm not as surprised as you'd thing since they are rare.

Being honest, half that was simply explaining every single detail about the calculations. So you don't have to truly read it if you believe my calculations, or may read it if you don't believe them.

Did two sets of calculations; one with clickies and one without.

Being honest here. If you want to make a false joke about a specific thing which is something you claim is inferior to what you are claiming, then you're picking the wrong thread to make a very poorly-constucted "joke" about, as in a thread such as this it will NOT be seen as a joke. And thus, my reaction was just and as it was posted.

Lastly, playing a pure capped cleric, I have partied with many Favored Souls and Clerics. I have met quite a few Clerics which I consider quite solid and competent divines, but have met very few Favored Souls which are of the same caliber. Perhaps it's because Favored Souls are not as versatile, perhaps it's because it's very hard to be able to melee, offensively cast, and heal all at once on a Favored Soul. It is easy to do this on a Cleric, though, and that I can tell you from experience as someone who does it.

[GermanicusMaximus]

I actually got a radiant ring yesterday...no one wanted it for some reason...here is the set:

Belt: Superior Ardor VIII clickie, Wizardry VI
Ring: Wisdom +6 (already on both concops, don't need it in a 3rd place thank you) +1 exp charisma (1/2 a turn attempt, amazing)
Set Bonus (here is where it gets good): ONE additional turn undead attempt. "exceptional bonus to turn undead cleric level" (I've hit "turn undead" exactly 10x this life. All of them were in that lich quest in deleras)

UBER. Concops are wiz VI, +6 wis already so...basically giving up 2 slots for +1 exp charisma and 1 turn attempt.

But I also pulled rahkirs so was not too upset. :)


Perhaps I was spoilt by the soloability/raw power of wf palemaster, fvs and earth savant. Cleric just doesn't compare.

But as a raid healer I think they are in the same ballpark, maybe even better in some situations. Still suprised at how many dragon breaths could go as cleric, dinky sp pool almost lasted entire time ^^.

Most of the cleric ToD sets are basically unusable. Aside from the Superior Ardor VIII clickies (which are very nice as a clickie) they bring nothing to the table. The warpriest set +2 to hit, +2 exceptional to hit, 2 additional turns is the most useful. I use my rahkirs set a lot of the time.

FvS obviously has the advantage in terms of DPS, but the game is loaded with DPS: melee, arcane, arties. The missing ingredient in most quests is heals.

I ran in a hard VoD today. Other healer was a FvS, with more spell points than I have. Half way through, he announces he is out of spell points (and of course has no pots). I heal to completion, healing the party with my aura (and a couple spot mass cures) and casting heal on the tank.

Hardly something out of the ordinary, but replace my cleric with a FvS in that quest, and it likely wipes. Give me a decent cleric instead of a FvS, and a completion that required some work is basically just an auto complete.

You need DPS and some healing, bring a FvS. You need first class healing, bring a cleric.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I prefer clerics because I like 1-2 lvls splashing without any loss of healing, a Clonk (18 cleric/2Monk) or Nun with a Gun (1arty/19 cleric) can have the same amount of wis a pure cleric 20 can and they bring some nice extras to the party.

A clonk with the Extra Turning feat can go melee with the rest of the party while healing at no sp cost for quite a while and gets a decent Stunning Fist DC, evasion doesn't hurt either.

A Nun with a Gun can get all traps in the game, dps from afar with Heavy Repeater at the cost of Zen Archery and can easily solo low lvl content.

[countfitz]

I have 2 of each, capped. Casting FvS>Pure cleric. Splashed battlecleric>WF FvS. And the clerics are both way EASIER to play (turn on aura and have fun) are both better healers, and were way easier to cap, get accepted in parties, and complete (not farm) epics.

My order: battlecleric>Casting FvS>Pure cleric>WF FvS.

But I love ease of play (I use a game controller and lots of autoattack) not spellcasting/aiming.

[erikbozelie]

Ask veteran players who have played both to cap, even those so called "challenge builds" and most will say FvS is better at endgame, hands down. Those challenge builds simply cannot do some things a good Lord of Blades build can do at high-end end game content. I for one can attest to this. Anyone who says otherwise has either not really played both at endgame very much or have only played clerics.

I am a veteran player ;).

but honestly, i cannot roll any fvs build satisfactory to me, because i always find a way to ruin the build for me with a cleric.

sp:cleric 3k sp base and 3.5k sp in effects of turning, VS 3550 sp fvs.
dps: cleric, looking at 587dps, VS 150± fvs
spell DC: same.
spell pen: fvs. but bypass CC as cleric.
what else to compare.
survivability? depends on content, id say non epic, cleric, in epic, slight advantage due to wings and alitle bit dr.
healing: cleric, aura overuns the SLA by 3 ticks on people, which is easy achievable.

turtle mode in tod allows a wf fvs to solo it + heal spam + guards. although wf are not welcome in EDA.

can only call disbeliever on me if you can beat my 2 posted cleric builds on the thread i posted earlier.
if not, your spouting more random gargage statements without knowledge like all the other fvs suporters in that thread.

every statement has already been discussed, broken down, and proven to work or has been proven not to work. as for fvs vs cleric, only thing left of that thread left standing was wings, and 1 other thing. go read.

[MRMechMan]

I am a veteran player ;).

sp:cleric 3k sp base and 3.5k sp in effects of turning, VS 3550 sp fvs.
dps: cleric, looking at 587dps, VS 150± fvs
.

I stopped reading right around here. Clerics have 3k sp base? 4x the dps of fvs?

You aren't being very persuasive with statements like that. They seem aluring, but just aren't true.

I also read your build before and, yes, it is powerful. That kind of multiclass split would be disasterous on a fvs. Different strokes for different folks.

However...AC is pretty useless endgame, and isn't doing you any favors for sp regen in other content. I cringe when I see misses. Traps? Most are avoidable. That build dominates 16th-19th level content and some of the easier epics...but any good divine build does.

I am enjoying cleric. Last man standing and soloed last 5% of EDQ2 today. :) Got it done, as a cleric. It's a very solid class.

But FvS is more powerful unless you are going for a flavor build.

[SirValentine]

Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue. There just aren't THAT many good spells. Only issues are lvl 9 (3 of implosion/true res/energy drain/mass heal), level 8 (3 of holy aura/mass cure crit/symbol of death/mass DW) level 6 (3 of BB/heal/cometfall/mass cure mod).

All other spell levels the 6 spells that clerics get is absolute overkill. Almost always end up slotting something that is never cast at all.

The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.


Really need to disagree with this. Sure, you can do fine with fewer spell slots, but I think there is utility in being able to carry a wider range of buffs and offensive spells, and being able to swap in the perfect spell for a given situation, rather than settling for only decent spells for all situations.



Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.

There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.


Have to disagree again. The only situations where FvS huge SP pool matters is extended beatdowns, usually raid bosses, and even there the aura helps. In, say, 6-man epic or high-level quests, the aura is incredible, and more than makes up for the SP difference.



Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead

Rebuttal: It's pretty useless at endgame.


No argument there!



-+2 spell pen/DCs/to-hit on debuffed mobs
<snip>
-30% extra damage on untyped/fire/physical spells


I hate to say to nerf anything, but I really don't like that FvS have BOTH of these advantages.

I'm quite happy to have FvS be much better at spell DPS, as Sorc is to Wiz, as long as Clr is better at DC-based-casting, as Wiz is to Sorc. Currently, due to the -2 saving throw aura debuff, FvS are better at both.



Presige Classes-Finish Rad III and make the other two prestige classes at least sufficiently powerful to make AOV FvS go "hmmm, maybe..."


Signed.

[butcheredspirit]

sp:cleric 3k sp base and 3.5k sp in effects of turning, VS 3550 sp fvs.



I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'd like to know how you do that.
...I get the feeling I couldn't afford the feats it likely requires.



I get bored at level 20, but love leveling up.
From this perspective I find cleric very powerful, and FvS a bit slower and limiting.

My view is that people who say extra spell slots aren't needed, are unaware of the potential.
More spells would be great, but there are so good ones already.

Slay Living, Dismissal, Banishment, Destruction, Implosion
- being able to cycle through each of these kills many very fast.
In some quests some of these spells aren't needed, ok swap them out.

Energy Drain, Symbol of Death,
Greater Command, the symbols, the list goes on.

Granted a FvS can take these spells too,
But a cleric can slot all of those (sooner), plus all the buffs and cures, sometimes more.

I could've taken a level of wizard for flame and force manipulation...
but I don't even use those spells all that much.

When I leveled a FvS Evoker, I felt so stuck for spell choices - I felt like I couldn't fill as many roles.

At the end of the day, I think your individual play style is what determines weather
There is any reason left to play a cleric instead of a FvS

I don't think either one is stronger in every area than the other.

[Therigar]

Although they do not have to be, clerics have the reputation for being healbots. This is rapidly falling into disfavor with players -- maybe already has. But, if your icon shows cleric there is a good chance that others will expect you to be nothing but a healer and buffer.

Favored souls have the reputation for being combat characters with the ability to heal. When other players see the FvS icon they will expect you to be in the melee using your dots and casting out the odd cure if things get hinky or the rez after you've finished cleaning everything up.

These two different mindsets by others is the main difference between playing a cleric and playing a favored soul. It isn't so much about what the two classes could be doing -- let's be honest, FvS can be healbots and clerics can be melee characters -- it is more about what other players think they will be doing.

So, IMO, the choice of which class to play should be based on which role you, the player, want for your character. If you want a healbot then go cleric. I think their PrE gears them to be better at that. If you want a combat character then go FvS.

[Matuse]

dps: cleric, looking at 587dps, VS 150± fvs

I don't even want to know what kind of mystical fantasy realm you pulled these numbers from.

Cause it's not DDO.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Although they do not have to be, clerics have the reputation for being healbots. This is rapidly falling into disfavor with players -- maybe already has. But, if your icon shows cleric there is a good chance that others will expect you to be nothing but a healer and buffer.

Favored souls have the reputation for being combat characters with the ability to heal. When other players see the FvS icon they will expect you to be in the melee using your dots and casting out the odd cure if things get hinky or the rez after you've finished cleaning everything up.

This is completely true (except for the disfavor part), which is why many distrust FvS in general and you'll get ask "can you heal?" or "Are you a heal build?" when playing even a pure FvS, I've seen many leaders who just don't take FvS because: "I have no idea what kind of *&?%$ build they might play".

A pure Cleric (even most splashed ones) will get in a healer spot on any party with no problems, a FvS will get in depending on the leader and the higher the content the more I see leaders interviewing FvS before letting them in.

In Epics and end game content people want a healer and because of a handful of badly played FvS that role is more closely associated with the Cleric. Heck I've seen FvS get refused to raids because "sorry, we need healers not self-healing wannabe ftrs".

[erikbozelie]

I don't even want to know what kind of mystical fantasy realm you pulled these numbers from.

Cause it's not DDO.

by math. build posted in thread and confirmed by various builders, GO READ! geez, id like you to come up with a fvs build that can best it. as for that thread went on for 300-400 posts. not a single person was capable.

as for you MRMechMan,

its specific builds that fvs will never be able to beat cleric, in any way posible by a noselength.

as stated, the 3k sp cleric, with 30 turns. versus a fvs of 3550. ive defended both sides in that thread.
although this is healbot vs healbot.

butcheredspirit,

here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3972522&postcount=142) was the quick draft of the cleric i posted on that thread. not very min max, but you the the point(18/1/1 would be better)

[Mellkor]

by math. build posted in thread and confirmed by various builders, GO READ! geez, id like you to come up with a fvs build that can best it. as for that thread went on for 300-400 posts. not a single person was capable.

as for you MRMechMan,

its specific builds that fvs will never be able to beat cleric, in any way posible by a noselength.

as stated, the 3k sp cleric, with 30 turns. versus a fvs of 3550. ive defended both sides in that thread.
although this is healbot vs healbot.

butcheredspirit,

here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3972522&postcount=142) was the quick draft of the cleric i posted on that thread. not very min max, but you the the point(18/1/1 would be better)


Not by any math you learned in grade school. Too many interpolated factors were used in your math to lend any kind of credibility to it.

Your cleric builds cannot beat these benchmarks or even come close to attaining all in one package, that I have on my first life WF Lord of Blades.

600+ HP's.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking.
2600+ sp's.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


All this from self buffs and ship buffs only. Add rage, haste, bard, arti buffs, past lives, etc for even better numbers.

So much for your "challenge"

Clerics can get the sp's this guy has, but gimps dps. Or a cleric can get the dps this guy has, but gimps SP's. In no case can a cleric get the DR this guy has. Also in no case can a cleric have high numbers (for a divine) in terms of SP's, saves, HPs, DPS and DR all in one package. Oh and on top of that, the FvS has much better elemental resists, debuffs, and divine punishment damage.

Link to build is in my sig.

[DeafeningWhisper]

by math. build posted in thread and confirmed by various builders, GO READ! geez, id like you to come up with a fvs build that can best it. as for that thread went on for 300-400 posts. not a single person was capable.

as for you MRMechMan,

its specific builds that fvs will never be able to beat cleric, in any way posible by a noselength.

as stated, the 3k sp cleric, with 30 turns. versus a fvs of 3550. ive defended both sides in that thread.
although this is healbot vs healbot.

butcheredspirit,

here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3972522&postcount=142) was the quick draft of the cleric i posted on that thread. not very min max, but you the the point(18/1/1 would be better)

While I also love Clerics, your 3 Sorc AND 3 FvS past life cleric with 2 lvls of Sorc, a lvl of FvS, maxed wis AND cha is great in theory it's not realistic for most players, if any... And certainly not the "base sp" you claim.

[Firesmall_at]

Clerics have great buffs. Rmv those neg lvls easy too. It is not just about damage and heal output. Esp whenn pugging and ship buffs run out.

[Habreno]

Not by any math you learned in grade school. Too many interpolated factors were used in your math to lend any kind of credibility to it.

Your cleric builds cannot beat these benchmarks or even come close to attaining all in one package, that I have on my first life WF Lord of Blades.

600+ HP's.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking.
2600+ sp's.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


All this from self buffs and ship buffs only. Add rage, haste, bard, arti buffs, past lives, etc for even better numbers.

So much for your "challenge"

Clerics can get the sp's this guy has, but gimps dps. Or a cleric can get the dps this guy has, but gimps SP's. In no case can a cleric get the DR this guy has. Also in no case can a cleric have high numbers (for a divine) in terms of SP's, saves, HPs, DPS and DR all in one package. Oh and on top of that, the FvS has much better elemental resists, debuffs, and divine punishment damage.

Link to build is in my sig.

I'd like to see you solo-heal the end Abishai fight in EChrono with that build, without using memonics and a reasonable (100) heal scrolls. I don't think you could do it, even in pre-u11 where all the HP's got buffed. Or try healing intense epics, or end-game raids (Level 20 on Normal) either solo or duo. You couldn't. And there is your problem.

Favored Souls are good at one or two things. They can melee, they can heal, or they can offensively cast. They cannot do all three together like a good Cleric can, because they're not as versatile as a Cleric is. I've already been forced to melee Summolades by myself to a completion because nobody could stay alive with the heals being tossed (after the tank dies because the arcanes run out of SP and everyone is getting cursed and can't pull them fast enough) due to being cursed. I have been in times where it's me and a monk duo-meleeing Xy'zzy in Elite Hound, since he's the only one who can live in an antimagic field because it's a poor party construction, while I keep him and myself up with bursts.


Being good at melee is one thing. Being good at all three is something a Favored Soul cannot, has not, and never will be able to do with the same build.

[AtomicMew]

Favored Souls are good at one or two things. They can melee, they can heal, or they can offensively cast.
Take a look at Groan's build posted in the achievements section. Basically, you are wrong. It is the cleric who has the harder time doing all three, due to having weaker offensive casting and overall less survivability.


every statement has already been discussed, broken down, and proven to work or has been proven not to work. as for fvs vs cleric, only thing left of that thread left standing was wings, and 1 other thing. go read.
The only thing that thread will show is that people got tired of arguing with you. Don't confuse persistence with proof.

can only call disbeliever on me if you can beat my 2 posted cleric builds on the thread i posted earlier.
Again, your builds have been beaten. All you need to do is look in the achievement section. Getting 80 AC is irrelevant when a FvS simply doesn't need it to do everything and more that your build claims it can.

[erikbozelie]

600+ HP's.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking.
2600+ sp's.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


Link to build is in my sig.

challance accepted. i wont actually read your thread, because you clearly havent read the one i posted.

my build currently at level 20 has.

440hp(okay got me beat).
yours doesnt has any ac. but 7 more DR standing.
my saves are higher.
spwise: 1850 vs 2600. ok beat me there, i got 14 turns(116sp each). 1 used for aura. 1508 aditional sp. got you beat in healing.

i got +62 to hit. with a dmg of 5d6+51 at nearly twice your hitting speed. and has the ability to add 50% ontop of that to trash. with instakill effects. now lets add a bard warchanter, and all of the other stuff mentioned. as all

nice build, your still missing evasion, so your reflex means nothing.
you dont have epic trapsmithing, making you more limited to a certain number of quests. as a wf i presume? not welcome in EDA.

guess we got different builds better at different things, doesnt make one better then the other.
i still prefer 1 of each in a raid group. 1 fvs to keep the tank alive, 1 cleric to keep the group alive.

as for the insult, i think you need to start learning to read before you get to math class.

I am out of this thread since its clearly going towards the bragging and namecalling competition as usual.

[Mellkor]

I'd like to see you solo-heal the end Abishai fight in EChrono with that build, without using memonics and a reasonable (100) heal scrolls. I don't think you could do it, even in pre-u11 where all the HP's got buffed. Or try healing intense epics, or end-game raids (Level 20 on Normal) either solo or duo. You couldn't. And there is your problem.

Favored Souls are good at one or two things. They can melee, they can heal, or they can offensively cast. They cannot do all three together like a good Cleric can, because they're not as versatile as a Cleric is. I've already been forced to melee Summolades by myself to a completion because nobody could stay alive with the heals being tossed (after the tank dies because the arcanes run out of SP and everyone is getting cursed and can't pull them fast enough) due to being cursed. I have been in times where it's me and a monk duo-meleeing Xy'zzy in Elite Hound, since he's the only one who can live in an antimagic field because it's a poor party construction, while I keep him and myself up with bursts.


Being good at melee is one thing. Being good at all three is something a Favored Soul cannot, has not, and never will be able to do with the same build.


Not one to brag, but I havent tried the Abashai solo, but I have served as main tank, successfully, in a group. I have also tanked epic demon queen without having to run from her (DR for the win). Also solo'ed vod, and tanked for TOD sulu as well as horoth and the jailer. I have no problems healing end game quests as well as intense epics, and do it all the time. Does your cleric hit the benchmarks I listed all in one character? I don't think so.

[Candela90]

For me FvS is better till they add new prestige for cleric.
I mean more dmg with spells vs overhealing? ...

DR is better than AC (at least on divine )
more dmg I PERSONALLY like more than overhealing
More sp vs more spell slots ( i dont find a lot divine spells usefull... on arcane it actually IS a problem for me, and i like to have sp for healing and killing, cause yeah... in group u can heal with bursts and kill with mana, but when soloing more mana is more usefull, cause u donrt need to heal so often - on fvs while soloing i mostly heal with me free capstone CLW)
Oh FvS have more feats and free resistances, better saves and 4 toughness enhancement, while cleric have no free resistances, average saves and only 2 toughness enhancements,
+ FvS have a jump as a class skill... maybe for some its not a big value, but i saw clerics with jump on minus... ;p It make problems in some quests even with +30 jump spell.

Wings + Archon vs Aura and bursts - these are both fine. I mean i love do at least some dmg for 20 sp all 5 mins and fly, but i would find aura/burstst usefull by beholders. - then they are big advantage.

As to multiclass... I would never multiclass a FvS. Cleric more likely.

Someone said cleric with 3k mana to 3,5k fvs mana. Yeah... i too can compare FvS with A LOT sorcerer past lifes to cleric 1-3rd life...
So if we are comparing 10past lifes sorcerers cleric, lets compare it to 10 past lifes sorcerers FvS.

I dont say clerics sucks.... but for a caster i would def. go FvS. For melee... WF FvS OR multiclassed cleric - both are fine.
I think that clerics need some love from Turbine ;p

[Mellkor]

challance accepted. i wont actually read your thread, because you clearly havent read the one i posted.

my build currently at level 20 has.

440hp(okay got me beat).
yours doesnt has any ac. but 7 more DR standing.
my saves are higher.
spwise: 1850 vs 2600. ok beat me there, i got 14 turns(116sp each). 1 used for aura. 1508 aditional sp. got you beat in healing.

i got +62 to hit. with a dmg of 5d6+51 at nearly twice your hitting speed. and has the ability to add 50% ontop of that to trash. with instakill effects. now lets add a bard warchanter, and all of the other stuff mentioned. as all

nice build, your still missing evasion, so your reflex means nothing.
you dont have epic trapsmithing, making you more limited to a certain number of quests. as a wf i presume? not welcome in EDA.

guess we got different builds better at different things, doesnt make one better then the other.
i still prefer 1 of each in a raid group. 1 fvs to keep the tank alive, 1 cleric to keep the group alive.

as for the insult, i think you need to start learning to read before you get to math class.

I am out of this thread since its clearly going towards the bragging and namecalling competition as usual.


Heh, so you admit defeat then? I have shown u a build that bests yours. You were the one challenging people to come up with a build that bests yours, don't go running off when someone shows you one.

I am always welcome in EDA and do it all the time. Don't see why I wouldn't be. What is your point on that?

Your to hit is good. we both hit almost all mobs on a 2, so a 62 to hit is not really an advantage over my build. I can do better than +62, if I have to, by turning off PA.

40 reflex save w/o evasion is still awesome, don't really need evasion with a good reflex save. It is nice, ya, but hardly required. Since you didn't post your saves, what are they? (with just ship buffs and self buffs, please)

As for twice the attack speed, I assume it is only because of haste boosts, which are limited to a few minutes at best, nice, yes, but not something you can really count on since it is limited. Also as to your claim to do 50% damage "on top of this", please explain.

I have yet to do a quest where lack of trapsmithing was an issue, so that is a moot point.

Aura is nice, and is a clear advantage sometimes, but I am still capable of healing any quest, and difficulty, with no issues.

AC is also a moot point, unless you can approach 90AC. What is your AC? DR is, however, a huge advantage and an issue you seem to avoid.

Lets bring in DPS vs high fort mobs as well. Not only can the FvS significantly debuff fort THEY ALSO boost light damage at the same time. So while fighting the FvS increases DPS by a LOT simply by debuffing mobs to allow more crits to land AS WELL as boosting divine punishment damage. This effect alone easily more than doubles DPS, especially on long boss fights. And easily wipes away any advantage you can claim from having a slightly higher to hit over my build. I would even bet my left nut that this effect, on long fights, does a lot more DPS than when you have haste boost active.

What instakill effects do you have that I dont also have access to?

No need to throw in things like warchanter buffs, since we can both benefit equally. Just leave that stuff out of this debate, please. Keep it to self buffs and ship buffs only, I think that is a more fair way to compare, no need to throw in all these obscure things that in reality are not used much in practice or require someone else to provide.

At 440 hp's with only 5dr, you wont be able to do things like tanking Horoth, the demon queen (on epic), the Abashai, Sulu, Jailor, or soloing VOD. Things I can do, and have done, and some on a regular basis, as well as serving as healbot on those same quests.

[Firesmall_at]

Reduce the timer on airship buffs to 30 minutes and guess who gets the invites? This thread would not be posted if it was not for ship buffs.

[Mellkor]

Reduce the timer on airship buffs to 30 minutes and guess who gets the invites? This thread would not be posted if it was not for ship buffs.

Ship buffs benefit both equally, so its not really a benefit to one or the other when both "sides" factor them in. Take ship buffs away from both and the net effect would still be the same. It would even be easier, for the purposes of debate, to leave out all common factors, but that is a pain, it is easier to debate in terms of whats done in actual practice. Theoretical or stripped down comparisons have merit, but it is too easy to throw in too many things on a theoretical build that simply are not used much in practice. IE yugo pots, house D pots, etc.

[erikbozelie]

Not one to brag, but I havent tried the Abashai solo, but I have served as main tank, successfully, in a group. I have also tanked epic demon queen without having to run from her (DR for the win). Also solo'ed vod, and tanked for TOD sulu as well as horoth and the jailer. I have no problems healing end game quests as well as intense epics, and do it all the time. Does your cleric hit the benchmarks I listed all in one character? I don't think so.

actually i did 1st life, but i feel no need to brag about it.

[Candela90]

erikbozelie and Mellkor conversation is starting to sound like:

- I have a cake.
- But i have a bigger cake.
- But my cake is as big as yours.
- Mine has better flavor.
- Mine have bestest flavor.
- Mine have a lot of butter.
- Mine cake IS a butter.
Etc...

[countfitz]

Ship buffs benefit both equally, so its not really a benefit to one or the other when both "sides" factor them in. Take ship buffs away from both and the net effect would still be the same. It would even be easier, for the purposes of debate, to leave out all common factors, but that is a pain, it is easier to debate in terms of whats done in actual practice. Theoretical or stripped down comparisons have merit, but it is too easy to throw in too many things on a theoretical build that simply are not used much in practice. IE yugo pots, house D pots, etc.

The point is if we didn't have such easy access to Cleric/FvS buffs on ships, or in fact buffs that are better than them, then a cleric, which has the slots to carry all the buffs, whereas a FvS doesn't, would outshine the FvS hands down.

But we DO have buffs. And, to add to another argument further up this thread, we DO have pots, sp pots, heal scrolls, etc. We DON'T have free DPS pots from the DDO Store, and the only one's I've ever seen were during Mabar and cost an arm and a leg, and few people consider those as options. But scrolls are not only options but considered necessary by most vets/powergamers.

With the game we play, FvSs are more OP, mostly because Clerics are so good at something that they almost always overdo, healing, whereas FvSs are all about the DPS, which this game makes more and more important with every update.

So, for those of us arguing the benefits of Clerics, we have to understand these points.

Why then play the Cleric? I've stated this above already, they are player friendly, you can't mess them up, they are EASIER to play and level, they don't require fast paced multi-button play, and are accepted into any group.

Click aura, fight, have fun. Simple.

And that is why clerics are EQUAL to FvSs in DDO. If you are already a powergaming, 8 hours a day player, then you already know FvSs are better for your style of play. But you play all endgame epic farming for 10 minute completions. Clerics are fun for the rest of the game. Levels 1-19 plus most of the endgame in groups.

[goodspeed]

yep, all this high end moment to moment battle of strengths for classes that are high and dry on the server anyway.

Sorcerer main healing raid robots ftw!!!

[countfitz]

Also, every month this thread pops up, I usually try to add this statement but forgot in my last two posts.

The fact that we are able to have this argument, every month, ad nauseum, is just a testament to how well balanced the two classes are and how good of a job Wizards of the Coast did (hell no I'm not giving Turbine credit for this! They can't balance a two ton truck on a sidewalk).

[Firesmall_at]

Both the Fav Soul and the Cleric strength is healing. Both usually have the heal spell. Clerics over heal? Favs have it tough just like Clerics until Divine Punishment, Divine Power, and Blade Barrier. Clerics get Divine Power and Divine Punishment sooner. Fav soul has better offensive casting with the prestige enhancement, but not as good as a wizard/Soc. Melee on both is 3rd rate no matter what STR cause you don't have the enhancements or enough feats compared to a good melee, but better than some pugs I bet.

The biggest plus for Cleric is 3 level V spells at level 9. Fav doesn't get that till lvl 13. Raise Dead. Divine Punishment. Greater Command. And really many more are needed. Prot from Elements. Spell resist. Mass cure, and even more, but only when u get the higher level mass cast versions.

Why a FavSoul would give up the offensive casting feats and enhancements is beyond me with the prestige enhancement. Would be like a Cleric giving up Radiant Servant and empower healing. Hence the rub. The Cleric doesn't have to be pure because they can overheal, but not having a pure FavSoul with the prestige enhancement for damage is worse. So the level splash Cleric has better melee than the Fav IMHO, but it still is sub-par.

More unknowns with a FavSoul and more questions. Some say they don't even take cure/heal spells till mid-lvl. Cleric is expected to offensive cast, heal, and buff. And can crowd control... at the same time. Melee too with a splash.

I run with all metas on for offensive casting, manage sp for healing, and am not stingy with pots. I buy them at the DDO store. I will put that philosophy against the stingy FavSoul any day too worried about spell points for 2nd rate offensive casting and melee buffs.

FavSoul is second rate. Second rate with offensive Casting, healing, and 3rd rate melee. Best as second to the Wiz/Soc, Second as a healer, and 3rd as a melee.

A nice backup to the mains.
lol. Just kidding. I would like to have a Fav Soul next to me in any party over a Cleric because I am a Cleric. 2 heals on cool down are better than one. 3 in a raid party. I bet the melee likes a Fav in there meleeing as long as he casts a mass cure once in a while after Divine Punishment. I bet the Wiz/Soc likes having a Fav next to him more than a Cleric unless he pulls too much agro ;)

Enjoy the game. It is more about the player behind the keyboard than any of this. And don't forget to get some sun.

[Habreno]

Not by any math you learned in grade school. Too many interpolated factors were used in your math to lend any kind of credibility to it.

Your cleric builds cannot beat these benchmarks or even come close to attaining all in one package, that I have on my first life WF Lord of Blades. First Life ELF Pure 20 Cleric.

600+ HP's. 539 HP, 579 if I go with a CON Yugo. And I'm using a CON-Penalized race, which is between 40 and 80 HP difference. Also still need 30 more HP from gear.
12DR standing, with 40 DR while shield blocking. 5/Chaotic. Not WF so I don't get inherent DR like you do. However, even moderately geared he hits over a 60 AC self-buffed and will be close to a 70 self-buffed when he's done gearing out. This leads to near an 80 buffed AC on a pure 20 Cleric, which is enough to stand up to most trash in most quests and raids.
2600+ sp's. 2141 SP when I swap in SP gear, 1951 without it. 12 TU's, which both regernate and are more useful as they are usable for a variety of things.
40 reflex save, 38 fort save (self buffed) and 31 will save. 36 Fort, 27 Reflex, 41 Will. Going AC mode these go to 40 Fort, 31 Reflex, and 45 Will, which means my saves beat yours in two of three cases, and are down 9 points in the third. On the average, in AC mode my saves are higher by 7 total points, or two points per save.
+53 to hit first swing with power attack on. Good enough to hit just about everything on a 2. Don't have Power Attack, but 15-20 X2 on GS Rapiers with a Seeker +8 effect is quite useful for a Cleric that is built to heal and offensively cast and does both quite well. Normal hits have BAB of 36 on first swing self-buffed. Damage is about 30-35 per hit without weapon effects. Coupled with a very large crit range and a Seeker +8 effect, this isn't a bad set of damage on a divine that can both heal AND offensively cast, which I know for certain your WF cannot do.
+58 damage modifier, not counting weapon effects.


All this from self buffs and ship buffs only. Add rage, haste, bard, arti buffs, past lives, etc for even better numbers.
Same thing here. Only buff I include that you probably don't is GH, as I have the ability to clicky that for 11 minutes for one click, and other clicks for the same effect, and can sustain GH for enough time to make it includable.

So much for your "challenge"
And yours is pretty moot as well.

Clerics can get the sp's this guy has, but gimps dps. Big misconception. Clerics have more effective SP than you do due to their TU's; I am not one to attempt to put a number on this, and don't think an effectively correct number *can* be put on this. Or a cleric can get the dps this guy has, but gimps SP's. Choosing to get slightly less DPS and a whole lot more utility. In no case can a cleric get the DR this guy has. Which is meaningless with an AC most trash mobs entirely miss, which, once I am finished gearing, I will have. As of now I still get misses in the majority of situations. Also in no case can a cleric have high numbers (for a divine) in terms of SP's, Has more effective saves, Not as high, but very solid saves HPs, Very close to your HP on a CON-Penalized class. I could get near 700 if I went with a CON-Benefited class like a WF, so this point is actually against you DPS Sacraficing some DPS for utility is the choice I have made and DR all in one package And once again, AC trumps DR when things can't hit you . Oh and on top of that, the FvS has much better elemental resists, True debuffs, Which do not stack with another Soul's debuff and divine punishment damage Exactly the same as a Cleric's, only when there is no Soul will the Cleric be lower in this regard. And when they raise the CL cap on DP, Clerics will out-DPS Souls on DP damage due to the two bonus CL they get on light and alignment spells (and healing spells as well) from Radiant Servant.

Link to build is in my sig.

Comments in Red above.

To be honest, sacraficing some DPS which is pretty low on a divine regardless of how they're built for a major bit of utility is quite a reasonable trade. So your build is not as useful as the one I have right now, and I've gimped my build with race as far as HP go and yours is buffed as far as HP go, and ours are close to equal. Plus, I have the survivability of no healing amp penalties and the ability to go with DPS or offensive casting or healing, while you are locked into DPS or most likely shaky healing, which is a major factor in end-game.

So honestly, a Favored Soul is easier to build better than *most* Clerics but a well-built Cleric will easily outstrip a Favored Soul. My build is above, and I challenge you to best it while maintaing the versatility that my build has. The problem is, Favored Souls are too pinned into two aspects and have to suffer too much in losses to get the versatility Clerics have.

[Mellkor]

and Mellkor conversation is starting to sound like:

- I have a cake.
- But i have a bigger cake.
- But my cake is as big as yours.
- Mine has better flavor.
- Mine have bestest flavor.
- Mine have a lot of butter.
- Mine cake IS a butter.
Etc...

LOL.


Well I am trying to have a civilized debate. I invite to post his build as I did so we can compare. The link he provided above to his build only generalizes and does not actually state numbers. This seems to be the case whenever he posts a link to his builds in other threads as well. I also invite him to rebut my rebuttals above, and provide the numbers and answers therein.

As I see it he threw down a "challenge" saying clerics were "miles" ahead of any FvS build. I proved this is not the case. I would like to see him make a cleric build to match the benchmarks stated above on my posted FvS build. All I have heard him say in this thread and others is that it could be done without actually spelling it out in a build that can be easily understood. If he did, please accept my apologies and provide a link. I have tried to make a cleric that matches those benchmarks, I could not do it. The closest I could come was a 18/2 pally splash. In the end, tho, in end game content, the WF FvS was just a lot more survivable whilst having arguably the same healing abilities in any quest.

I am not saying FvS are miles ahead of clerics, each has its strengths. That said, however, I find FvS's a lot more survivable with at least equal healing abilities, and therefor the better class to bring to any end game quest.

[Habreno]

LOL.


Well I am trying to have a civilized debate. I invite to post his build as I did so we can compare. The link he provided above to his build only generalizes and does not actually state numbers. This seems to be the case whenever he posts a link to his builds in other threads as well. I also invite him to rebut my rebuttals above, and provide the numbers and answers therein.

As I see it he threw down a "challenge" saying clerics were "miles" ahead of any FvS build. I proved this is not the case. I would like to see him make a cleric build to match the benchmarks stated above on my posted FvS build. All I have heard him say in this thread and others is that it could be done without actually spelling it out in a build that can be easily understood. If he did, please accept my apologies and provide a link. I have tried to make a cleric that matches those benchmarks, I could not do it. The closest I could come was a 18/2 pally splash. In the end, tho, in end game content, the WF FvS was just a lot more survivable whilst having arguably the same healing abilities in any quest.

I am not saying FvS are miles ahead of clerics, each has its strengths. That said, however, I find FvS's a lot more survivable with at least equal healing abilities, and therefor the better class to bring to any end game quest.

If you'd like to see the build I have, feel free to look at Habreno on Argonessen. Just going to warn you that it's got my normal town gear on, and it is heavy on gear swaps for various effects, so you won't be able to see most of it (if only there was a way to save multiple gear sets to show different things) sadly.

If you're on Argonessen, I'd be willing to link you the gear that I use for most of the stuff. Still need more gear and I'm still working on acquiring it to max the multiple benefits.

[Mellkor]

Comments in Red above.

To be honest, sacraficing some DPS which is pretty low on a divine regardless of how they're built for a major bit of utility is quite a reasonable trade. So your build is not as useful as the one I have right now, and I've gimped my build with race as far as HP go and yours is buffed as far as HP go, and ours are close to equal. Plus, I have the survivability of no healing amp penalties and the ability to go with DPS or offensive casting or healing, while you are locked into DPS or most likely shaky healing, which is a major factor in end-game.

So honestly, a Favored Soul is easier to build better than *most* Clerics but a well-built Cleric will easily outstrip a Favored Soul. My build is above, and I challenge you to best it while maintaing the versatility that my build has. The problem is, Favored Souls are too pinned into two aspects and have to suffer too much in losses to get the versatility Clerics have.

Meh this argument could go on and on.

I would say your build is not as useful as mine since your dps capabilities are poor and you lack a decent DR. With a 36 to hit first swing you will be missing more than 50% of the time. I would not say "this isn't a bad set of damage" with those numbers, I would just say it was bad :D.

In any event, IMO, the much better DPS capabilities of the WF FvS along with high DR both trump divine offensive casting at endgame since most, if not all, offensive divine spells dont work very well at endgame (or are not very party-friendly), even with 40ish DC's. DR is a lot better in endgame content than AC in my experience, unless it is over 90, which is near impossible to get on a divine without major sacrifices. even with an 70 AC you will still get hit a lot in endgame content. The DR and decent DPS capabilities is much more useful at endgame.


And you still haven't equaled those benchmarks all on one character with a cleric build. You claim better saves in "AC mode", but I dont have to go into any sort of "mode" to maintain my numbers.

:D

[Mellkor]

If you'd like to see the build I have, feel free to look at Habreno on Argonessen. Just going to warn you that it's got my normal town gear on, and it is heavy on gear swaps for various effects, so you won't be able to see most of it (if only there was a way to save multiple gear sets to show different things) sadly.

If you're on Argonessen, I'd be willing to link you the gear that I use for most of the stuff. Still need more gear and I'm still working on acquiring it to max the multiple benefits.

HAHA we have run together on a few occasions! :rolleyes: find meh in game for more debate!

[Habreno]

Meh this argument could go on and on.

I would say your build is not as useful as mine since your dps capabilities are poor and you lack a decent DR. With a 36 to hit first swing you will be missing more than 50% of the time. I would not say "this isn't a bad set of damage" with those numbers, I would just say it was bad :D.

In any event, IMO, the much better DPS capabilities of the WF FvS along with high DR both trump divine offensive casting at endgame since most, if not all, offensive divine spells dont work very well at endgame (or are not very party-friendly), even with 40ish DC's. DR is a lot better in endgame content than AC in my experience, unless it is over 90, which is near impossible to get on a divine without major sacrifices. even with an 70 AC you will still get hit a lot in endgame content. The DR and decent DPS capabilities is much more useful at endgame.


And you still haven't equaled those benchmarks all on one character with a cleric build. You claim better saves in "AC mode", but I dont have to go into any sort of "mode" to maintain my numbers.

:D

True, I do have better saves in AC mode, but without AC mode I have four lower to each, which is only a problem in the position of Reflex.

That is one build, with that much versatility. I can go with AC mode, hit near a 70 buffed as I'm geared right now, and be able to hit near an 80 when I finish my gearing, or go with my DPS mode, and start with a decent BAB and decent melee damage, while maintaining 95% of the casting. Or I can go casting mode and maintain 80% of the melee.

We will discuss this in-game, as we can get a very interesting debate.

[Zennestia]

I have a capped 17/2/1 cleric/monk/fighter and a 20 evoker fvs.

To be honest I find the cleric more versatile and enjoyable to play.
My stunning fist DC is 45 with a pair of stunning +10 wraps.
If I got around to making the epic spare hand, this would sit at 50.
I also like the faster attack speed when using handwraps, and fighter haste boost 1 is always nice.

In normal questing the cleric aura ticks along nicely for 31.
I equip bramble casters when taking a lot of ranged damage, and with the aura going don't need to waste much mana on healing.

My fvs has the cure light capstone which is handy, and DR 10/silver.
Spells such as blade barrier are more potent, and I have slightly higher DCs due to taking 2 spell focus feats.

Both bulds have over 500hp, with the fvs having around 1100 more mana.
In the most difficult content (epic lob) I would take the fvs, but for most content including epics I would prefer the utility of my cleric.
I have a bit more work to do, but my cleric should be able to get viable spell DCs and melee in the one build.

I have thought about rolling up a melee wf fvs, but to be honest this play style doesn't appeal.
THF attack speed just seems so slow, and in epics not having insta-kill spells would really get to me.
I would much rather hit the implosion button than melee the 5 mobs down around me.

[Alaunra2010]

Has anyone mentioned Divine Vitality? I haven't seen it. I don't see many people use it. I find it tremendously useful as a support skill. Instead of putting enhancement points into the smiting lines, I put my extra enhancements into Divine Vitality.

I play a drow pure cleric and focused on Wisdom and Charisma at creation. I *can* melee but it's usually a waste of the group's time. I do plenty of offensive casting when the group is self-sufficient. That said, with a garden-variety +5 charisma item, I manage 19 turn undead attempts per rest cycle, +1 every two minutes. If we rest every 10-15 minutes or so, my turn undead ability is broken down as such:

Turns to start: 19
Divine Intervention: 2 to 3
Healing Aura: 6 to 8
Turn Regeneration: 5 to 7
Divine Vitality 3: 15 or so.

In a pug, I usually use DV3 on clerics and wizards, and occasionally rangers because they have some fantastic damage mitigation spells and I want them to use these liberally. Paladins get it too, since they have at least one damage-dealing ability that requires spell points.

IMO, giving someone else an average of 400 spell points per rest cycle is nothing to scoff about. Doing this can be very, very rewarding, especially in endgame content where the other healer is under spell point pressure. I mean 400 points isn't a ton, but think about it... 400 is a decent roll on a mnemonic potion.

It's not huge, but it sure is a neat perk.

[IBCROOTBEER]

Best reason to play cleric ... past lives!

Other than that ... play a FvS!

[butcheredspirit]

There's nothing quite like exploring a dark dungeon,
getting surrounded by undead,

Then radiant bursting them all back to death! (such a cool animation)

Those umbral ones that explode into vapor are particularly fun.




Next I want to turn demons as though they were undead.

[zwiebelring]

As someone who has capped both cleric and fvs on the same character with very similar gear, here are some thoughts...

What do clerics get that fvs do NOT?
Radiant aura which is notable when missing. A FvS can replace by occasional quickened masse cure lights to have a similar effect but the gain of the Clr is a clear less click intensive gameplay.


Advantage #1 Clerics get more spells at each level

Rebuttal: At no spell level are the fewer spells of a fvs a major issue.
Not true. Before barvery I agreed, now with bravery a missing cure spell while leveling on elite content IS a notable opportunity cost not to mention the sweet spot for spell levels 3-6 where the Clr is a bit easier since you have access to all spells of those levels.


The strength of the cleric is versitility. Versitility is near useless as many divine spells are garbage.
Useless only for particular lvl areas. Some concepts whatsoever cannot use the full potential of a divine caster due to multiclassing and thus find many spells useless.


Advantage #2 Radiant I and II are great sources of healing.

Rebuttal: They are. The aura is a nice way to keep people topped up during long quests, and the bursts are a great mass cure. However, burst healing is what is more important, and FVS are equally good at that. Mass heal is such an efficient way to heal that it's the best course of action in most cases, and fvs can do that for longer. There aren't THAT many quests at endgame where the aura shines. Most have shrines every 5-10min.
So, this might be your answer then. I know that I choose classes for the fun I might have and not for the pure number crunching out of some aspects in that class.


There are very few situations where a cleric is a much better healer than a fvs.

Advantage #3 Clerics can turn undead
That's irrelevant with Radiant Aura. Despite the pure style of the Turn tag nuke the Radiant Burst is more effective and has same effect.

The choice by numbers and features you listed here gives a quite balanced impression to me. Both classes have viable contribution to a party in 3 roles (melee, healer, Evoker). So it leaves you with your personal taste as deciding factor.

[Habreno]

After quite an interesting dicussion in-game, I have to say that going after one specific thing, the Favored Soul will be better than or equal to the Cleric, solo on solo. Clerics are about equal when it comes to Souls in healing alone.

Once you start trying to do more than one thing, however, Favored Souls start to lose appeal due to not being able to do more than one thing well. Only if you're trying to build an entirely balanced build would a Cleric outshine the Soul in most things. So the answer to this question is a balance thing.

Do you want an offensive caster that can heal? Favored Soul gets their debuff, Clerics can get an extra DC from WIS (and after all is said and done, that third enhancement to WIS is what gives Clerics an even WIS and Souls an odd WIS, which means a DC point); Souls get extra SP, while Clerics get their Radiant Servant to help supplement their lower SP pools.

Do you want a melee build? Favored Souls can get a decent SP pool along with melee capability, but don't have Divine Might to give a major DPS boost. However, most, who will go WF for Lord of Blades, do gain damage enhancements through the Lord of Blades faith with Greatswords. This isn't that spectacular until you acquire the Sword of Shadows, and then the ESOS, which ends up being 15-20 X3 when you take IC: Slashing. This compares to a Human Cleric which also gains the damage boost throuh Human Versatility that Favored Souls get via class enhancements. The Cleric is not locked into Greatswords, though will probably splash a level or two to gain other benefits, which the Favored Soul cannot do. However, the Soul will easily have 700+ spellpoints over the Cleric, and more likely closer to 1000, resulting in more healing. And as Divine Might runs off Turn Undeads, the Radiant Servant healing isn't as usable.

Do you want a build that can do more than one thing? Here the Favored Soul runs into problems. They can still get decent melee, but have to sacrafice either SP or DC's to do that, or can sacrafice some melee, but still won't have the DC's or SP a melee-dumped Soul would. So a Soul would have to sacrafice a lot of one for the other, making a duo-build of melee and either healing or casting very hard to work. However, the Cleric can do decent melee damage while maintaing both high DC's and high SP, as there is no dual-reliance for casting stat, plus are able to splash without losing a lot of benefits of a pure.

I conclude with the conclusion that looking at one specific element, the Soul will be equal to or beat the Cleric. But as more things are put on the divine's proverbial plate, the Cleric starts to gain on the Soul due to their ability to multitask much more effectively.

[MrChipinator]

I feel that the reason Clerics make such better healers is because of the mindset. Clerics more often than not don't have all the options that FvS do when it comes to questing. So they have a more *keep meatshields alive* mindset, and therefore pay attention to being the best healer they can. I have done Cleric and FvS lives and individual toons before, and I often commit myself to being a healbot on Clerics (thanks for making warforged barbarians guildies :P ) and trying to help out the group by using my DC oriented spells when I can. As a FvS, I'm able to toss the occasional heal when it's needed (most things are dead before they reach them though) but I mainly go through and decimate everything. Could I visa-versa the roles? Yes. Could a Cleric be uber DPS? Yes. But I feel it's the psychological aspect of playing the class. Could a rogue offer to do the trap maze? Yes. Will he if there is a monk nearby? (I sure as heck hope not!)

my 2cents

[butcheredspirit]

Clerics more often than not don't have all the options that FvS do when it comes to questing.

This is the part of your post I really don't understand...

All I'm going to say, is one of a clerics greatest strengths is the amount of options available.

From looking at your whole post I wonder if you are talking more about your build and toons, than the clasess.

It's just very differnt from my experience, primarily as a pure cleric.

I find meatshields just get in the way...summons work just fine if that job is needed.

Edit:

I feel it's the psychological aspect of playing the class

For me, the pyschological aspect of playing a cleric comes from previous knowledge of the cleric class before DDO.
To begin with I was shocked and horrified at how some people see/play the class on DDO...no wait I still am.

[SirValentine]

Clerics more often than not don't have all the options that FvS do when it comes to questing.


Huh? Even most FvS fanboys, while trying to downplay it's importance, do admit that Cleric has more versatility. How on earth do you arrive at the conclusion that Clerics have fewer options?

As a long-time Cleric who just started levelling up as a FvS, and I'm a bit frustrated at the FvS lack of options. So few spell slots! A FvS4 has ONE 2nd level spell slot, while a Clr4 has FOUR (and can swap them around freely from over a dozen choices at any shrine or tavern). Oh yeah, and, one level previous, FvS3 has ZERO, while Clr3 has THREE 2nd level spells.

[zex95966]

one thing I found if it matters to anyone, is that clerics get invited to heal parties, but FVS are more "random"

When my cleric joins a party I'm always a healer - when my FVS joins a party they ask me if I can heal. Regardless of their capabilities (they both can heal just fine), the fact that they ask my FVS but not my cleric, shows something.

This could matter if your like me and enjoy supporting and healing but not taking the blame everytime something happens - if my party wipes on my cleric it's 100% always my fault.
If my party wipes on my FVS I usually dont get blamed.
...and my bard is never blamed so I love them best =)

[Mubjon]

one thing I found if it matters to anyone, is that clerics get invited to heal parties, but FVS are more "random"

When my cleric joins a party I'm always a healer - when my FVS joins a party they ask me if I can heal. Regardless of their capabilities (they both can heal just fine), the fact that they ask my FVS but not my cleric, shows something.

This could matter if your like me and enjoy supporting and healing but not taking the blame everytime something happens - if my party wipes on my cleric it's 100% always my fault.
If my party wipes on my FVS I usually dont get blamed.
...and my bard is never blamed so I love them best =)

Just defend your stance :)

Lots of times when someone says "The cleric did not heal" I always say, "I would have done a better job had you not taken the belief I was a god in a mortal body so serious and believed I could reach you half way across the quest or around a corner!" and then tell them that if they wanted a babysitter they can talk to a vendor because I was not being paid to babysit.

[Firesmall_at]

one thing I found if it matters to anyone, is that clerics get invited to heal parties, but FVS are more "random"

When my cleric joins a party I'm always a healer - when my FVS joins a party they ask me if I can heal. Regardless of their capabilities (they both can heal just fine), the fact that they ask my FVS but not my cleric, shows something.

This could matter if your like me and enjoy supporting and healing but not taking the blame everytime something happens - if my party wipes on my cleric it's 100% always my fault.
If my party wipes on my FVS I usually dont get blamed.
...and my bard is never blamed so I love them best =)

Many FavSouls don't want that...

responsibility ;)

[MRMechMan]

Huh? Even most FvS fanboys, while trying to downplay it's importance, do admit that Cleric has more versatility. How on earth do you arrive at the conclusion that Clerics have fewer options?

As a long-time Cleric who just started levelling up as a FvS, and I'm a bit frustrated at the FvS lack of options. So few spell slots! A FvS4 has ONE 2nd level spell slot, while a Clr4 has FOUR (and can swap them around freely from over a dozen choices at any shrine or tavern). Oh yeah, and, one level previous, FvS3 has ZERO, while Clr3 has THREE 2nd level spells.

If you are building for level 3 or 4, that would indeed be a major issue.

I have no problem putting up with that minor inconvenience for the matter of 1 hour that those levels take.

Only spot it really hurts is getting blade barrier AND heal 2 levels later. And sands content is so easy that it isn't really a problem.

And where it matters, at cap, the spell selection is very minor...not at all like sorcs where they have to make some real choices at some levels.

[butcheredspirit]

If you are building for level 3 or 4, that would indeed be a major issue.

I have no problem putting up with that minor inconvenience for the matter of 1 hour that those levels take.

Only spot it really hurts is getting blade barrier AND heal 2 levels later. And sands content is so easy that it isn't really a problem.


I find the problem occurs through the whole leveling process though.

Hmm do I want Greater Command, Raise Dead, Flame Strike, Divine punishment, first mass cure, or perhaps slay living?
Maybe Protection from elements or spell resistance.

It takes ages to only get a small selection of what you want, it's harder to adapt to best meet the challenge.


And where it matters, at cap, the spell selection is very minor...not at all like sorcs where they have to make some real choices at some levels

And by the time your are 20...well what's left to do?
That's boring, I've done 19 shroud runs now...never again. Epics bore me. I love to level.
Even at cap I found I'd often swap spells in and out - guess I still didn't have enough slots for all I wanted.

[Matuse]

dps: cleric, looking at 587dps, VS 150± fvs


by math. build posted in thread and confirmed by various builders, GO READ! geez, id like you to come up with a fvs build that can best it. as for that thread went on for 300-400 posts. not a single person was capable.

Uh huh. Yes, of course. Math. Special math that somehow gives a Cleric FOUR TIMES the DPS of a FvS. Is there some new offensive spell that is Cleric only and I'm not aware of it? Did Divine Might get buffed to +30 Damage without anyone but you noticing?

I'm not calling you a disingenuous liar, but I'm certainly thinking it very loudly.

[Antheal]

I suppose if you build specifically to take advantage of things like Divine Might, it could give you an edge over a Favoured Soul, but that may require more specific building than you need for a typical FvS to be just as good?

[Niv-mizzet]

>.>
<.<
Oh hi...uh...just your friendly neighborhood caster dropping in.

Just wanted to say I like it when the FvS pre aura not only makes their spells land better, but does the same for everyone in the group. Felt like no one mentioned that little tidbit.

And now I flee before I get caught in this war!

[good_ole_corwin]

Guys, guys, guys, seriously. It really is about the person behind the proverbial wheel here, nothing more, nothing less. Both a cleric and a FvS played to their full potential, with the right playstyle and right gear for the situation will be so powerful that you wont be able to tell the difference - who cares about a few % of DPS or 1 more or less DC, those differences will be completely levelled out by the inherent randomness of rolls. The problem is very few people can play the classes to their full potential (and that is true for all of them btw, divines are just perhaps more complicated because they have that healing thing going on). Im not saying Im one of those, not by a longshot, but the thing is, and the forums make this worse I think, people tend to reduce both clerics and FvSs to one trick ponies. Yesterday was a prime example for me...

I ran an elite Eye of the titan yesterday. There was one other FvS in the group apart from me and like a good offensive FvS, he laid down BBs and... Well that was it for the offensive casting. I chugged down a wis yugo, laid down a symbol of death when it was off timer and spammed implosions, destructions and slays, plus BBs when there was a spot for one. When my SPs were low, divine might/favor, blinded the last few mobs with holy smite and settled down more or less, since Im really not built for melee (and so I use Watchers blade, the curses help more than my insignificant melee DPS). Fast and easy run, 20+ kills for me, rest of the party 10- (I know the killcount doesnt mean anything, but...). And still my performance wasnt optimal, I didnt use prayer to further debuff mobs, there was a death (strangely enough, it was the other FvS) and Im sure there were other things I could have done better.

Then there was a hard ToD run. Me and 2 clerics. Judge and Jailor fight, one went with the Jailor fight, the two of us remaining on the group for Judge... Judge died, Jailor brought over, things going smoothly, but me and the other judge cleric almost out of SPs, the Jailor cleric still at about 1800, Jailor at about 50% HPs, I ask him to use masses more, that we are almost out, he said he was... Jailor dies, the cleric at 1k+ SPs, I had to down 2 pots to throw out emergency cures (and again, my fault, I could have conserved my SPs better, Im not saying Im uber and above making mistakes), because apparently the cleric only used aura and mass heals. And most of the forum posts I read would say thats correct behaviour, because everybody knows mass heal is the most efficient mass cure and aura is so freaking amazing! Well yeah, both are true. And both are being overestimated. You need mass cure (moderate or critical, depending on whether you have the s. ardor VIII from Amrath or just VI that is available elsewhere) because mass heal takes way too long to cast even quickened and way too long cooldown to rely on it only. One badly timed mass heal (and it will happen, because you can never predict incoming damage with complete certainty) and you wont be able to land another one before the next damage spike. And while aura is a GREAT use of your TUs if youre a cleric healing a raid, arguably the best when you calculate HPs healed/TU used or something, ffs, use the bursts when a mass cure is needed, especially if your mass heal is on cooldown.

TL;DR:
Ive seen well played clerics, Ive seen well played FvSs, Ive seen them both played badly. How about we all just stop the peeing contests between the two divine classes that pop up so regularly you could base a calendar on it, and go learn to play them so well that there wont be a need for any of it?

[Firesmall_at]

Bump

[firemedium_jt]

********** Epic U15 Redux **********


I would say with the epic feat melee requirements now and that a clerics ability to splash 3 levels for 3 more melee feats while keeping 2 lvl 9 spells...

That Str based melee Clerics might surpass Fav soul by having Epic melee like Overwhelming critical. And I am liking cleaves with paralyzers and Terror effects to mobs surrounding me.

[knightgf]

Well, I'll give clerics one thing: They are MUCH easier to build than a favored soul. I tried rolling FvS's before and each one ended up garbage. I don't understand why the class is designed so that CHA determines your spellpoints and WIS determines your spell DC's; in fact, I think this is the only class that does it. Bard, wizard, sorcerer, druid, paladin and rangers don't do that stupid ****. But, it's more of a PnP issue than in-game issue, so little can be done about it.

Favored Souls are not for simpletons such as myself. But I do hear that in the right hands, they are totally overpowered and can solo stuff very well. How they do it though befuddles me...

[scottmike0]

Well, I'll give clerics one thing: They are MUCH easier to build than a favored soul. I tried rolling FvS's before and each one ended up garbage. I don't understand why the class is designed so that CHA determines your spellpoints and WIS determines your spell DC's; in fact, I think this is the only class that does it. Bard, wizard, sorcerer, druid, paladin and rangers don't do that stupid ****. But, it's more of a PnP issue than in-game issue, so little can be done about it.

Favored Souls are not for simpletons such as myself. But I do hear that in the right hands, they are totally overpowered and can solo stuff very well. How they do it though befuddles me...

dump cha to 11 and your all set to go