Cleric/Paladin/(maybe monk)

[notforyou]

was thinking of GR'ing my cleric to be more of a frontline fighter/healing support. Was thinking RS 2/DoS 1 would be nice but not quite sure on the split i should do. either 12clr/6pal/2mnk(evasion and 2 xtra feat slots, 1 for toughness), 13clr/6pal/1mnk(lvl 7 spells, free toughness feat slot), or 13clr/7pal(lvl 7 spells, and pally enhancements for better aura). Just need some opinions to finalize my decision. btw she's lvl 17 almost 18 atm so she will have some time b4 capping.

[wax_on_wax_off]

was thinking of GR'ing my cleric to be more of a frontline fighter/healing support. Was thinking RS 2/DoS 1 would be nice but not quite sure on the split i should do. either 12clr/6pal/2mnk(evasion and 2 xtra feat slots, 1 for toughness), 13clr/6pal/1mnk(lvl 7 spells, free toughness feat slot), or 13clr/7pal(lvl 7 spells, and pally enhancements for better aura). Just need some opinions to finalize my decision. btw she's lvl 17 almost 18 atm so she will have some time b4 capping.

You have a heart+5 to waste turning a character from something that everyone wants to something that may or may not work and will get a lot of raised eyebrows if not outright rejections?

I'd say the first option is the best way to go, 12 cleric, 6 paladin, 2 monk. What race are you?

You'll never be able to do the damage of a proper melee build with something like this so the only possibility for usefulness comes from being able to be a self sufficient tank. For this purpose I'd suggest sword and board with shield mastery and a bastard sword (epic chimaera's fang w/dragonmarks+THF'ing feats preferably).

Better yet, just stay pure and take shield mastery at level 18.

[notforyou]

'tis a sad day when ppl think that pure is the only way any toon can be good.

this toon is human. also to say that it wouldnt be as good is just downright wrong, yes its not a top dps or healing build but it can do both sufficiently to be a boon to any party, especially as it will be right up with the melees putting down some damage with melee and spells, and has AoE heals (mainly healing aura, RS burst, CMW mass, and if it goes 13 clr CSW mass). the reason i posted this was for input on whether ppl think giving up CSW mass is worth evasion or vice versa.

also staying pure means ppl always expect u to sit in the back and throw heals at the melee, also by staying pure u lose out on the +15% hp and +2 STR and CON from DoS stance.

[wax_on_wax_off]

'tis a sad day when ppl think that pure is the only way any toon can be good.

this toon is human. also to say that it wouldnt be as good is just downright wrong, yes its not a top dps or healing build but it can do both sufficiently to be a boon to any party, especially as it will be right up with the melees putting down some damage with melee and spells, and has AoE heals (mainly healing aura, RS burst, CMW mass, and if it goes 13 clr CSW mass). the reason i posted this was for input on whether ppl think giving up CSW mass is worth evasion or vice versa.

also staying pure means ppl always expect u to sit in the back and throw heals at the melee, also by staying pure u lose out on the +15% hp and +2 STR and CON from DoS stance.

You're now defending a build which you haven't even posted. Quite easy to do really.

Everything that was in my post is factual, not subjective.

Many people will meet a 12 cleric / 6 paladin / 2 monk build with raised eyebrows. Others may reject it entirely.

Such a build may or may not work, the dependent factor is how well it is built and how well it is geared.

That said, the build could certainly work as you are human. Do you have the pieces for an epic chimaera's fang? Do you have enough larges for conc-opp HP GS goggles? Do you have the patience to get crucial items or the resources to make up for not having them (major SP pots)?

You get 10 feats with the above build.
THF'ing*3
DM*3
Toughness
Shield Mastery
Empower Healing
Maximise

Missing (in order of importance): Power Attack, Quicken, Tower Shield Proficiency, Empower, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash. Really tricky to fit in all the feats that you want. If you swapped monk to fighter it gets you tower shield proficiency. If you swapped paladin to fighter you get tower shield proficiency, power attack and quicken (along with WF:S and WS:S).

Considering how tight feats are I'd probably suggest 12 cleric / 6 fighter / 2 monk. I realise this misses a considerable amount of survivability but the benefit of the extra feats outweighs this, imo.

If paladin is required then dropping the THF'ing feats might be the best option though you lose a considerable amount of DPS and hate generation by doing so.

To be clear, the difference between this build working and this build not working will be the ability to access a fully powered (DM*3) epic Chimaera's Fang. It stacks all your hate onto 1 item and the +10 enhancement will help to overcome AB issues.

Beyond that, don't bother with AC, just stack the DR from shield mastery, find a source of 5/- DR and get as much strength and constitution as you can for hate generation and HP.

[Arsont]

My guildie runs a build very similar to this, but with 6 fighter/2 rogue instead (Doesn't own monk). It's a decent dps build, but they also have a massive amount of gear from their previous life.

This build would be feasible, but no one would take you as a healer. Anyone that doesn't already know you, or doesn't like odd class splits is VERY likely to just decline you from groups. Even my guildie I mentioned has that problem-and they're really well known on the server. For the purposes of epics quests, you could pass as a healer if your group is strong. For raids, however, they're more likely to dump you in favor of a pure Lord of Blades fvs if they want a dps healer. Not hating, just stating facts as I've seen them.

Honestly, if you were to do this build, you'd be better off changing your thinking. It's no longer a healer, but a self-healing melee. In which case, you don't need to worry about CSW mass, you want Evasion to improve your survivability. You could still do decent damage if you keep your self-buffs up and gear up as a melee, but that build would work better going twf with scimitars or khopeshes. Alternatively, as Wax said, you could build a self-healing DR tank, but without as much AC/DR/hp as a deeper fighter split, less healing than a deeper fvs/cleric split, and with dps somewhere in between (Closer to the caster side. Less if you can't spam and keep up Divine Punishment), you'd have to be very well gear to remain viable.

Personally, I favor taking 6 fighter instead of 6 pally. Better dps and AC (If you were to build for it). You lose Divine Righteousness from pally side, but that may or may not matter based on what you want from the build.

That being said. I'd like to hear what you intend to do with this build. It'd also be nice to see an actual build, preferably run through the character planner, but that would just be a perk. Once you have an idea of what you'd like to do, I can give better input.

[notforyou]

You get 10 feats with the above build.
THF'ing*3
DM*3
Toughness
Shield Mastery
Empower Healing
Maximise


my question is which dragonmark r u using? and also why dragonmarks? most of them are very underwhelming, the only 1 that i would only consider worth getting would be DM of finding for the 3rd tier mark. as of right now for this build i had been thinkin:
Toughness
Emp Heal
Emp Spell
Maximize
Quicken
THF x3
Shield Mastery
IC: Slash

now as said earlier by Arsont 6 Ftr would give more feats and the same stance which would only leave out CHA to saves which would be almost necessary for Reflex to get high enough to evade any kind of spells unless i invest into Dex and might as well go twf then. as far as AC i wasnt planning on being rly high anyways, maybe hitting 50-60 for non-epic because anything epic takes 80+ to be effective at any point. As far as GS items i have enough mats to make anything thats needed atm, as for the epic chimaera, Sentinel's is one of the three adv packs i do not own (was p2p from '06 until it went free and since then just bought adv packs when they come out and plan to buy the last 3 after christmas).

P.S. forgot to mention this toon does alrdy have a +2 supreme tome on it and its only 32 pts, just in case u need that information. I am very lazy in leveling up toons so i am pretty much completely against TR'ing unless some1 can show me a list of quests i can do in order to power level a 2x TR to level 20 in a very short time

[smallstones]

'tis a sad day when ppl think that pure is the only way any toon can be good.

this toon is human. also to say that it wouldnt be as good is just downright wrong, yes its not a top dps or healing build but it can do both sufficiently to be a boon to any party, especially as it will be right up with the melees putting down some damage with melee and spells, and has AoE heals (mainly healing aura, RS burst, CMW mass, and if it goes 13 clr CSW mass). the reason i posted this was for input on whether ppl think giving up CSW mass is worth evasion or vice versa.

also staying pure means ppl always expect u to sit in the back and throw heals at the melee, also by staying pure u lose out on the +15% hp and +2 STR and CON from DoS stance.

Well, About all I'm gonna say on this is when you ask for an opinion, you can't get upset when that opinion is different than yours.

As for the build itself, Not going there, but expect more of the opinions already expressed unless you plan on soloing/guild only usage.

[notforyou]

Well, About all I'm gonna say on this is when you ask for an opinion, you can't get upset when that opinion is different than yours.

As for the build itself, Not going there, but expect more of the opinions already expressed unless you plan on soloing/guild only usage.

i'm not upset but the fact that some1 states that a build is no good cuz its not max dps, max healing, or max wutever gets rly old when its been proven time and time again that a toon doesnt have to be max to be a good toon or a boon to a party.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Dragonmarks of Sentinel change the epic Chimaera's Fang from a +6 weapon to a +10 weapon with triple hate, +4 insight AC/saves and +50% insight fortification (maybe more).

Epic Fang does as much for sword and board tank melees as eSoS does for melee DPS (not saying it's equivalent DPS but that it adds a lot to the build in a variety of ways).

I'd hold off doing this build until you can access an epic fang, it'll make all the difference at least in how people perceive your build.

Getting a workable evasion score on this build is going to be next to impossible. I'd stick to doing what you can do which is DPS through strength and an eFang and survivability through self healing and DR.

All that said, a paladin build like DarkStar's can tank better and can self heal just as well.

[notforyou]

Dragonmarks of Sentinel change the epic Chimaera's Fang from a +6 weapon to a +10 weapon with triple hate, +4 insight AC/saves and +50% insight fortification (maybe more).

Epic Fang does as much for sword and board tank melees as eSoS does for melee DPS (not saying it's equivalent DPS but that it adds a lot to the build in a variety of ways).

I'd hold off doing this build until you can access an epic fang, it'll make all the difference at least in how people perceive your build.

Getting a workable evasion score on this build is going to be next to impossible. I'd stick to doing what you can do which is DPS through strength and an eFang and survivability through self healing and DR.

All that said, a paladin build like DarkStar's can tank better and can self heal just as well.

ok i see what u mean with the DM of sentinel, but on a second note with the self healing thing u keep bringing up, once again its not just about self healing but also providing healing for melees via aura and bursts while still putting out dps or tanking. i see tanking being much more gear intensive than going THF or TWF (though TWF would be more feat and stat intensive). currently im running Lit elite with a 12clr/4ftr/2mnk thats twf and shes making it work very well though she is a 1x TR, so maybe ftr would be more beneficial as a SD with more feats

[silvermesh]

I've actually been pondering this exact type of thing and I've started building one to see how it feels. Going 12 cleric I can't justify not taking another level of cleric for another spell level. 6 pal for DoS, more hate generation than a ftr and 2 bonus turns from DoS(more bursts and auras). Last level ftr for tower shield prof as well as another feat. Its a very tight build so I didn't try and fit the dragonmarks in. My original concept was paladin with a cleric "splash" for the aura(12 levels hah). And that's how its meant to be played. In with the melees dropping mass cures and auras. With the right gear it can tank with the big boys and throw out DoTs and heals. Squeezing in evasion may be worth it but I've never been a fan of evasion for the sake of evasion(plus I picture this toon in full plate not pajamas heh)

That said the biggest challenge is proving that you deserve a party spot. On paper you look more like a gimp cleric than an uber paladin(to me the concept was designed to show what the paladin "should" be capable of).

[notforyou]

Getting a workable evasion score on this build is going to be next to impossible.

this is why i was asking if the 2nd level of monk would be worth it for evasion. if u cant at least hit 30+ in non-epics then its almost worthless so maybe the extra level of cleric would be worth it for that extra oomph from CSW mass. now as silver was saying the seperate turn attempts from pal and clr allow more uses of turn abilities such as Divine Might and such, if u were to use Pal DM and Cleric Healing Aura they would be on seperate uses of turn undead (currently have 21 (3base+4feat+10cha+2item+2enhancement) with my cleric but that would almost certainly be reduced, but paladin would give me another 21(or less, like 15 or w/e after i redistribute feats and stats) paladin turns if i kept it the same), my only question on that is does RS replenish paladin turn uses like cleric turn uses? if not it seems to be an overlook by turbine for that kind of multiclass. also maybe ftr level instead of monk level would be worth it if u go 13/6/1 for the haste boost and u get an extra combat feat slot and can just use ur standard feat slots for toughness. any thoughts?

[unbongwah]

Here's a build I did a while ago for someone else, based on the same idea as WOWO brought up: i.e., a S&B self-healing tank (DoS I / RS II). It's a 34-pt TR build, but it can be made as 32 pt with INT 8 instead.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Female
(6 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 12 Cleric)
Hit Points: 339
Spell Points: 595
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 17
Will: 18

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 14 16
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 14
Bluff 2 3
Concentration 7 31
Diplomacy 2 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 3
Heal -1 3
Hide 2 3
Intimidate 6 26
Jump 3 7
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 2 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 7
Tumble 3 4
Use Magic Device 3 14

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+5)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+3)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+6)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Might II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery III


I staggered out the paladin lvls to squeeze out as much from the skill pts as possible; same with the monk levels. I didn't start with monk because of the feats involved. EDIT: I think the Sentinel DMs are too expensive for this build; plus that makes it easier to port this build to other races.

[wax_on_wax_off]

(**** iPhone reloading a half finished message and deleting it! XD)

Bullet points:
12 cleric / 6 fighter / 2 monk with a fully powered epic Chimaeras Fang is better than any other option on the strength of that 1 weapon (which is the only weapon that the build needs besides 2 handers).

Evasion should still get over 30 just don't invest build resources in it as the build is stretched as it is.

4+2+3 base
3 dex (8 base +2 tome +6 item)
1 SD stance
5 resistance
4 GH
4 insight (eCF)
2 luck (recitation)
1 sacred ship buff
1 +2 dex shrine
=30 reflex
4 holy aura (friendly cleric)
5 +10 reflex save item from reign of madness pack
=39

[notforyou]

4+2+3 base
3 dex (8 base +2 tome +6 item)
1 SD stance
5 resistance
4 GH
4 insight (eCF)
2 luck (recitation)
1 sacred ship buff
1 +2 dex shrine
=30 reflex
4 holy aura (friendly cleric)
5 +10 reflex save item from reign of madness pack
=39

last time i checked holy aura is a resistance bonus and therefore wouldnt stack with a +5 resistance item or a +10 reflex item as all 3 are resistance bonuses

[wax_on_wax_off]

last time i checked holy aura is a resistance bonus and therefore wouldnt stack with a +5 resistance item or a +10 reflex item as all 3 are resistance bonuses

Nope, it stacks.

The +10 reflex save item is only listed as a +5 bonus.

[notforyou]

The +10 reflex save item is only listed as a +5 bonus.

yeah i saw that. strange that 2 resistance bonuses stack

[Lauf]

OK seeing as how I leveled a 12 cleric / 8 fighter build, I may be in a position to help you with some perspective.
I should mention that I also started out wanting to make a cleric/paladin build, but realized the fighter is pretty much the only way to make it work, unless you're geared to the max with epics.
and lets face it - if you're fully geared, pretty much any build can work......

lets cut to the chase - as mentioned earlier, your reflex saves would be low. too low to justify taking 2 levels of anything for it.

the biggest problem I've had with the build was getting the to-hit to a high enough score (melee class comparable). that's needed because you wouldn't want to waste the relatively small amount of sp you have on continually casting divine power / favor every couple of minutes. better to save them for buffs/heals/raises, slightly frustrating because there's a desire to be selfish and shine, but in the end it makes for smoother runs.

so with that in mind, a fighter makes for a better complement to your cleric levels. 8 levels of fighter gets you weapon focus and greater weapon focus (most people frown on those, but then again most people don't have 12 levels of cleric in their build) and with kensai these amount to an additional +3 to hit. these would go a long way towards making up for the missing melee class levels.

a 1 level monk splash, while very tempting for the additional hitpoints, means you'll lose out on +2 to attack. 1 from the GWF feat and 1 from being an uncentered monk, which means your BAB won't benefit from that level.
so for a build starving for attack bonuses, I would advise against it.

it's slightly disheartening, because a monk splash and pally seem like so much fun to work in with a cleric, for the double aura and wis+cha bonuses, but the numbers just aren't there to make this a good fit for an actual full time melee combat toon.
or I should say - I couldn't get them to add up.
I'm guessing that's also what drove that other mentioned build of 12 clr /6 fig/2 rog in that direction of taking fighter.

my 2 cents, hope they help.

[wax_on_wax_off]

OK seeing as how I leveled a 12 cleric / 8 fighter build, I may be in a position to help you with some perspective.
I should mention that I also started out wanting to make a cleric/paladin build, but realized the fighter is pretty much the only way to make it work, unless you're geared to the max with epics.
and lets face it - if you're fully geared, pretty much any build can work......

lets cut to the chase - as mentioned earlier, your reflex saves would be low. too low to justify taking 2 levels of anything for it.

the biggest problem I've had with the build was getting the to-hit to a high enough score (melee class comparable). that's needed because you wouldn't want to waste the relatively small amount of sp you have on continually casting divine power / favor every couple of minutes. better to save them for buffs/heals/raises, slightly frustrating because there's a desire to be selfish and shine, but in the end it makes for smoother runs.

so with that in mind, a fighter makes for a better complement to your cleric levels. 8 levels of fighter gets you weapon focus and greater weapon focus (most people frown on those, but then again most people don't have 12 levels of cleric in their build) and with kensai these amount to an additional +3 to hit. these would go a long way towards making up for the missing melee class levels.

a 1 level monk splash, while very tempting for the additional hitpoints, means you'll lose out on +2 to attack. 1 from the GWF feat and 1 from being an uncentered monk, which means your BAB won't benefit from that level.
so for a build starving for attack bonuses, I would advise against it.

it's slightly disheartening, because a monk splash and pally seem like so much fun to work in with a cleric, for the double aura and wis+cha bonuses, but the numbers just aren't there to make this a good fit for an actual full time melee combat toon.
or I should say - I couldn't get them to add up.
I'm guessing that's also what drove that other mentioned build of 12 clr /6 fig/2 rog in that direction of taking fighter.

my 2 cents, hope they help.

If you look a post or 2 above you'll see a self buffed reflex save of 35 possible or 39 with a common outside buff. I definitely think that this makes a 2 monk splash worthwhile.

Additionally, monk gives enough feats to fully power an epic chimaera's fang which gives +4 AB and +4 saves (from +10 enhancement and +4 insight to saves/AC).

Finally, Kensei I is pretty underwhelming. On the other hand, Stalwart Defender I is amazing for such a build and definitely the way to go.

[Lauf]

If you look a post or 2 above you'll see a self buffed reflex save of 35 possible or 39 with a common outside buff. I definitely think that this makes a 2 monk splash worthwhile.

Additionally, monk gives enough feats to fully power an epic chimaera's fang which gives +4 AB and +4 saves (from +10 enhancement and +4 insight to saves/AC).

Finally, Kensei I is pretty underwhelming. On the other hand, Stalwart Defender I is amazing for such a build and definitely the way to go.

like I said, with enough gear any build is possible.

recitation, ship buffs, GH, epic items... that's not your average walking around resistance. take these away and the reflex is underwhelming, even if you did boost it with all the 'normal' items you can get your hands on, including a +2 tome.

having said that, I was unaware of the epic chimaera's fang qualities, and I would definitely look into it.+4 AB would make a world of difference in such a build, thank you for the heads up.


--------- edit

having read up on the epic fang, I now understand what you meant, but the build is feat starved as it is. ideally you'd want to have toughness, extend, quicken, empower healing, power attack, imp. crit and as many THF feats as you can squeeze in. I personally found extra turns to be very useful.
since the OP also wants shield mastery we can add that to the mix as well, and in our nice to have list we can throw in feats like maximize and empower.

where would you find room for 3 useless DM feats? and all that for making a specific epic item work... which means up until that point you'd be running a gimped build.

and I can tell you from experience there's no great love out there for 12clr level splits. it's hard to find groups and you constantly have to prove to people that the build isn't gimped.
this would be a tough sell if it is.

[PurdueDave]

recitation, ship buffs, GH, epic items...
I'd consider those reasonable to include for figuring saves.

[wax_on_wax_off]

like I said, with enough gear any build is possible.

recitation, ship buffs, GH, epic items... that's not your average walking around resistance. take these away and the reflex is underwhelming, even if you did boost it with all the 'normal' items you can get your hands on, including a +2 tome.

having said that, I was unaware of the epic chimaera's fang qualities, and I would definitely look into it.+4 AB would make a world of difference in such a build, thank you for the heads up.


--------- edit

having read up on the epic fang, I now understand what you meant, but the build is feat starved as it is. ideally you'd want to have toughness, extend, quicken, empower healing, power attack, imp. crit and as many THF feats as you can squeeze in. I personally found extra turns to be very useful.
since the OP also wants shield mastery we can add that to the mix as well, and in our nice to have list we can throw in feats like maximize and empower.

where would you find room for 3 useless DM feats? and all that for making a specific epic item work... which means up until that point you'd be running a gimped build.

and I can tell you from experience there's no great love out there for 12clr level splits. it's hard to find groups and you constantly have to prove to people that the build isn't gimped.
this would be a tough sell if it is.

I detailed an example list of feats:




You get 10 feats with the above build.
THF'ing*3
DM*3
Toughness
Shield Mastery
Empower Healing
Maximise

Missing (in order of importance): Power Attack, Quicken, Tower Shield Proficiency, Empower, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash. Really tricky to fit in all the feats that you want. If you swapped monk to fighter it gets you tower shield proficiency. If you swapped paladin to fighter you get tower shield proficiency, power attack and quicken (along with WF:S and WS:S).

Considering how tight feats are I'd probably suggest 12 cleric / 6 fighter / 2 monk. I realise this misses a considerable amount of survivability but the benefit of the extra feats outweighs this, imo.

+1 AB, +2 Damage from WF/WS:S isn't crucial if the feats are preferred to be used elsewhere (for extend, empower, improved shield mastery or improved shield bash for instance).

You don't need extend. It's nice to have but it's a luxury in the end. Especially with the changes to the way buffs are displayed (so you can see the short term ones) it's possible to play without them. You also don't need improved critical. Epic Chimaera's Fang is a pretty universal weapon and comes pre-keened.

The important thing to realise is that for a majority of players if you present this general build theme to them they'll at best raise their eyebrows and at worst refuse you from any mildly challenging content. If, however, you link the +10 epic chimaera's fang then it will completely change their perspective (in a majority of cases).

When giving a mock up of what you need to get to 30 reflex I really didn't include much. The build as I see it is based on the 1 weapon - eCF - so including it in the reflex score is reasonable. You can do 30+ self buffed reflex without any epics at all by just getting the +10 reflex armour from reign of madness. Insight is accessible on greensteel (+4) or greater parrying random loot gen (+2).

If you want to look at what you can get with epic gear/harder to get gear then you can include +3 from +3 dex tome, +7 dex item (buccaneers ring), +3 exceptional (ToD ring) and Litany of the Dead trinket (+1 profane dexterity). Yugo dexterity pot makes a total of 39 self buffed reflex save.

If you include extra outside buffs then Holy Aura puts it to 43, Walk of the Sun puts it to 45, Resistance of Good puts it to 48.

Finally, for the purpose of traps or bursts you can have +1 from clever monkey philosophy and +5 from Versatility: Saves giving a final possible reflex save of 54 (vs traps, 53 otherwise).

Now, if I'd quoted 50+ as a reasonable reflex score for an 8 dexterity cleric build to have then it would have been reasonable to call me out on it as it is obviously temporary and situational. However, the build will get plenty of use out of its evasion ability if it invests appropriately into its reflex score.

Now, I've shown how all important feats can be fit in, how valuable both the epic chimaera's fang and evasion can be, is there anything else?

To clarify as well, the OP is prepared to LR into the build so can bypass all the difficulties and just go straight to the final build after he has the epic Fang ready to go. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

[Lauf]

Now, if I'd quoted 50+ as a reasonable reflex score for an 8 dexterity cleric build to have then it would have been reasonable to call me out on it as it is obviously temporary and situational. However, the build will get plenty of use out of its evasion ability if it invests appropriately into its reflex score.

Now, I've shown how all important feats can be fit in, how valuable both the epic chimaera's fang and evasion can be, is there anything else?

To clarify as well, the OP is prepared to LR into the build so can bypass all the difficulties and just go straight to the final build after he has the epic Fang ready to go. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

First off thank you for your detailed reply. it's been a pleasure to read.

as for the reflex saves, a wish list is a wish list regardless of length. some people think including rarer buffs like Yugo pots is reasonable, I personally think what you walk around with is what you walk around with. and in this build the walking around reflex saves are sub par. can you reach reasonable reflex saves? you have shown that with careful buffing high reflex saves can be achieved. I'm not a careful buffer by nature, I tend to find it tedious, but maybe the OP would enjoy such a build.

having the option of LRing into the build and skipping its leveling gimpness is what makes the plan viable, and I have to admit I completely missed that very important detail while reading the thread. I apologize for my mistake.

as for the feats, I would suggest losing the THF feat chain in order to pick up power attack and cleave, that should free up a feat for quicken.

[wax_on_wax_off]

First off thank you for your detailed reply. it's been a pleasure to read.

as for the reflex saves, a wish list is a wish list regardless of length. some people think including rarer buffs like Yugo pots is reasonable, I personally think what you walk around with is what you walk around with. and in this build the walking around reflex saves are sub par. can you reach reasonable reflex saves? you have shown that with careful buffing high reflex saves can be achieved. I'm not a careful buffer by nature, I tend to find it tedious, but maybe the OP would enjoy such a build.

having the option of LRing into the build and skipping its leveling gimpness is what makes the plan viable, and I have to admit I completely missed that very important detail while reading the thread. I apologize for my mistake.

as for the feats, I would suggest losing the THF feat chain in order to pick up power attack and cleave, that should free up a feat for quicken.

Ahh, reading comprehension fail again, after the tone of the reply was so nice too.

If you read the quote of mine carefully you will see that power attack and quicken were only missing because it was for the paladin build. If you read the following paragraph after the feat list you will see the note on the advantage of the fighter split in getting those 2 feats that you mention (not sure what I suggested rather than cleave).

I did consider rewriting the feats but opted to quote myself for your benefit, I even tried to clean up the quote to make the important facts more salient but I guess I didn't do a good enough job.

Regarding reflex save, you can quite easily have a 35 walking around reflex save with only the eCF for epic gear if you get the armour from reign of madness. +2 good luck can be gotten from HoGF, epic buccaneers ring or slotted into an epic item if you don't want to cast recitation (not sure where else it comes from). I believe after that GH is the only buff that is needed but draconic necklace, planar gird, scrolls or friends can cover that very well.

Here I'm showing you a walking around reflex of 35. 30 is the generally accepted minimum for usefulness so even without GH the build still qualifies. Evasion is useful on this build.

[notforyou]

as far as low atk bonuses, even with 2 levels of monk this build still has a BAB of 15 which is equal to a pure cleric, rogue, artificer, bard, or favored soul. BAB of 15 is quite adequate for high level content as most mobs have a very mediocre ac score (i'm being very generous saying mediocre cuz a lot of them have nearly no ac). as far as clicky intensive, this does not bother me, i have leveled many melees and spellcasters (mainly wizards & sorcs), and have leveled a few multiclasses (13mnk/7wiz being my favorite :P zombie monk (yes i know some of you will have a gripe with this one but i can assure u it holds its own and then some, even in epics)) but all that aside the only reason i was asking this question on this build was because i wasnt quite sure on everything as i usually dont play clerics and im getting quite bored sitting in the back healing dps/tanks that cant mitigate any damage and all my sp goes to casting Heal. This build is supposed to bring me out of that boring role and give a little more excitement to this character. Once again, while not having uber dps or uber healing, it will be able to do both very well and ease the tension on the main healer(s) in raids and in regular quests/parties where IF every1 else is very self sufficient would eliminate the need for a true dedicated healer slinging heals every 2 seconds.

[Lauf]

as far as low atk bonuses, even with 2 levels of monk this build still has a BAB of 15 which is equal to a pure cleric, rogue, artificer, bard, or favored soul.


rogues rely on flanking (+2 to hit) and the stackable sneak-attack to hit enhancements to make up for the missing 5 BAB. bards have inspire courage song and focusing chant that serve to bring them up to par, and fvs/clerics have divine favor and power.
I'm unfamiliar with the artificer class, having yet to play one.

my point being, that all the classes aim at having 20+ BAB for melee purposes. the problem with the splashed cleric is that you would not have massive amounts of sp and as such would probably prefer to avoid casting devine favor/power whenever possible. not building the build to have a melee comparable BAB means you will not be able to avoid casting it frequently, and as being only level 12 and without extend you would be strapped for sp from these spells alone.

I seriously urge you to not settle for a BAB of 15 on what should be a melee character.



This build is supposed to bring me out of that boring role and give a little more excitement to this character. Once again, while not having uber dps or uber healing, it will be able to do both very well and ease the tension on the main healer(s) in raids and in regular quests/parties where IF every1 else is very self sufficient would eliminate the need for a true dedicated healer slinging heals every 2 seconds.

nice in theory, but having been there I can tell you that in raids, even in ones where I've had a 2nd 12clr toon with us, the healing auras weren't enough to make a significant impact.
your level 12 aura will heal someone with no healing amps for 13 hit points every few seconds, assuming you took all the possible enhancements. that's just not enough in a raid environment where the boss is hitting for hundreds.
you would need a raid of battle clerics to eliminate the need for a healer, and sadly there just aren't that many around.

however in non-raid parties you could certainly make the difference between needing a healer or not, which is why I've recommended the extra turns feat. with 13+ turns you could keep an aura up for 30 min straight, and be able to occasionally burst heal when needed. this would allow you to dps while healing the party and using minimal casting, thus making up for your low sp.
and I have to agree with you, I found the build much more fun to play than a full cleric or a full melee toon.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Dear me, any character can carry enough 5/day clickies to keep up divine power permanently between shrines and the spell doesn't scale by level so is effectively full power (though short duration).

Then you have the SP cost of divine favour to consider but this spell doesn't benefit in efficiency from extend (unless you have an efficient extend item like elders focus but then only slightly).

Keeping these up is easy; sure, it's clicky intensive but that is the nature of the build. Then when you consider the +10 enhancement bonus on the eCF, destruction on the eCF and other class, combat style and racial bonuses the AB on this build will be fine if it is in content that is appropriate for the level/gear. Obviously some high AC mobs will create issues but that is true of most builds and appropriate external buffs/debuffs will work adequately.

Does the OP want me to write up the build or does he want to post a specific one so that feedback can be a bit more specific?

[notforyou]

possible build: 12clr/6ftr/2mnk

stats: lvl 1: 16 8 16 8 10 16
lvl 20: 23 10 18 10 12 18 (w/o enhancements or gear, but with +2 supreme tome)

Feats:

DM*3 (rly liking finding over sentinel because of loot boost)
quicken
maximize
emp heal
extend
THF
ITHF (ftr)
GTHF (ftr)
EWP Bastard Sword (ftr)
Shield Mastery (ftr)
toughness (mnk)
Power Attack (mnk)


as far as enhancements Life Magick will be taken of course, toughness enhancements are a must, extra turns will be nice for at least the first 2 tiers, SD and RS II of course and their pre-reqs, after that its more or less a toss up until i see the list to choose from.

as far as Lauf was saying about the 15 BAB and divine power; 15 BAB is sufficient and i have quite a few divine power clickies, also did u take in account for superior ardor for healing aura? because with that and healing amp enh and item that healing aura will be hitting over 20.

[notforyou]

I've recommended the extra turns feat. with 13+ turns you could keep an aura up for 30 min straight, and be able to occasionally burst heal when needed.

currently with only tier 2 enh and with feat i have 21 turn uses in case u havent read earlier posts. getting rid of the extra turning only reduces it to 17 and with a better turning uses item i could hit ~20 uses and free up a feat slot.

[wax_on_wax_off]

possible build: 12clr/6ftr/2mnk

stats: lvl 1: 16 8 16 8 10 16
lvl 20: 23 10 18 10 12 18 (w/o enhancements or gear, but with +2 supreme tome)

Feats:

DM*3 (rly liking finding over sentinel because of loot boost)
quicken
maximize
emp heal
extend
THF
ITHF (ftr)
GTHF (ftr)
EWP Bastard Sword (ftr)
Shield Mastery (ftr)
toughness (mnk)
Power Attack (mnk)


as far as enhancements Life Magick will be taken of course, toughness enhancements are a must, extra turns will be nice for at least the first 2 tiers, SD and RS II of course and their pre-reqs, after that its more or less a toss up until i see the list to choose from.

as far as Lauf was saying about the 15 BAB and divine power; 15 BAB is sufficient and i have quite a few divine power clickies, also did u take in account for superior ardor for healing aura? because with that and healing amp enh and item that healing aura will be hitting over 20.

So you've dropped weapon focus: slashing and weapon specialisation: slashing for extend and EWP: Bastard sword. As I mentioned above the +1 attack, +2 damage isn't crucial but it is still nice, either works fine for me. Once you get the eCF I'd drop EWP for Empower in that case as it will boost up the healing from radiant servant burst for free perhaps.

Regarding DM choice, either can work. If you go finding then you only get +8 enhancement on the eCF and you lose a couple of other things (+50% insight fortification and +20% threat iirc but might be something else too). The threat can be gotten on claw set and the fortification isn't particularly important (until bosses start debuffing our fort).

I'd drop charisma to 14 and put wisdom up to 14. You'll get more SP and the +2 charisma isn't really needed (only reason to start with 16 charisma is if you wanted DMIII/IV which you don't qualify for with only 12 cleric levels).

A final consideration is skills. Ideally, I'd like concentration (needed for scroll healing primarily), UMD (needed for fire shield while tanking certain bosses primarily), intimidate (needed to hold aggro) and some balance. You can get enough points into balance by using a +2 int tome at level 7 and putting those extra points along with monk levels into it. For the other 3 though you need 3-4 skill points/level which is a lot. Perhaps moving those points from charisma into intelligence would actually be a better idea.

Well, with 8 base int if you only take fighter levels after you eat a +2 int tome at level 7 you'll get a total of 21 ranks which almost maxes intimidate (has to be max though really). If your first level is monk you get 4 ranks into balance , 4 into concentration, 2 intimidate, 1.5 UMD and 1 into tumble. Next 7 levels are cleric increasing concentration and UMD (4B, 11C, 2I, 5.5 UMD). Next 4 levels are fighter (I14). 1 monk (9B). 2 cleric (17C). 1 fighter (I17). 1 cleric (20C). 1 fighter (20I). 2 cleric (23C, 7 UMD).

So, 8 base int gets you 23 concentration, 9 balance, 20 intimidate, 7 UMD and 1 tumble. If you had 2 more starting intelligence you could use the extra 23 points to get ~15 balance, 23 intimidate, 11 UMD and 1 tumble. Worth it I'd say.

[Bilger]

Listen wax is right on.

Quicken imo is something that needs to be on a build like this though casting and fighting especially in high end content you won't have a high enough concentration to make a differance IMO.

Another thing not mentioned or may have missed mentioned is divine power spell imcreases your bab like your a fighter of that lvl and adds +6 strength if no item a must for any BC type.

[notforyou]

So you've dropped weapon focus: slashing and weapon specialisation: slashing for extend and EWP: Bastard sword. As I mentioned above the +1 attack, +2 damage isn't crucial but it is still nice, either works fine for me. Once you get the eCF I'd drop EWP for Empower in that case as it will boost up the healing from radiant servant burst for free perhaps.

Regarding DM choice, either can work. If you go finding then you only get +8 enhancement on the eCF and you lose a couple of other things (+50% insight fortification and +20% threat iirc but might be something else too). The threat can be gotten on claw set and the fortification isn't particularly important (until bosses start debuffing our fort).

I'd drop charisma to 14 and put wisdom up to 14. You'll get more SP and the +2 charisma isn't really needed (only reason to start with 16 charisma is if you wanted DMIII/IV which you don't qualify for with only 12 cleric levels).

A final consideration is skills. Ideally, I'd like concentration (needed for scroll healing primarily), UMD (needed for fire shield while tanking certain bosses primarily), intimidate (needed to hold aggro) and some balance. You can get enough points into balance by using a +2 int tome at level 7 and putting those extra points along with monk levels into it. For the other 3 though you need 3-4 skill points/level which is a lot. Perhaps moving those points from charisma into intelligence would actually be a better idea.

Well, with 8 base int if you only take fighter levels after you eat a +2 int tome at level 7 you'll get a total of 21 ranks which almost maxes intimidate (has to be max though really). If your first level is monk you get 4 ranks into balance , 4 into concentration, 2 intimidate, 1.5 UMD and 1 into tumble. Next 7 levels are cleric increasing concentration and UMD (4B, 11C, 2I, 5.5 UMD). Next 4 levels are fighter (I14). 1 monk (9B). 2 cleric (17C). 1 fighter (I17). 1 cleric (20C). 1 fighter (20I). 2 cleric (23C, 7 UMD).

So, 8 base int gets you 23 concentration, 9 balance, 20 intimidate, 7 UMD and 1 tumble. If you had 2 more starting intelligence you could use the extra 23 points to get ~15 balance, 23 intimidate, 11 UMD and 1 tumble. Worth it I'd say.

11 umd is useless as far as i know. also being cleric this build can cast any divine scroll needed. so unless ur gonna scroll ___ (cant even think of an arcane scroll or item that can go here as they all are min 20, arti scrolls even higher)

*afterthought* being a cha skill and having 30 cha brings this up to 21 but still i see no use in scrolling lvl 1 or lvl 2 arcane spells, maybe for alignment or race restrictions but none of my current gear at lvl 17 ( im blue barring atm) has that and none of the gear i intend to use such as eCF will be RR or AR. also on the note of giving up EWP Bastard Sword; why? just cuz eCF grants it doesnt mean its gonna be the only weapon used, I will have to use other weapons to bypass heavy DRs in certain mobs and bosses, so imo its almost needed unless i should be using a scimitar, but that does not grant glancing blows, so im a little confused where dropping EWP becomes non-detrimental with a -4 to using other bastard swords, as stated b4 this toon will be tight on attack bonuses

[wax_on_wax_off]

11 umd is useless as far as i know. also being cleric this build can cast any divine scroll needed. so unless ur gonna scroll ___ (cant even think of an arcane scroll or item that can go here as they all are min 20, arti scrolls even higher)

*afterthought* being a cha skill and having 30 cha brings this up to 21 but still i see no use in scrolling lvl 1 or lvl 2 arcane spells

My pure WF FvS (with same access to UMD but lower charisma) can scroll teleport scrolls with a good chance of success with appropriate gear.

11 base
10 charisma (not sure where you're getting 30 from but ok)
3 competence (golden cartouche)
3 enhancement (epic big top/epic spyglass from Crystal Cove or +1 from big top otherwise)
4 GH
2 luck (HoGF/Epic Buccaneers Ring or slotted elsewhere)
6 GS Cha skills SP item (air guard for this build)
5 human versatility: skills
=44

That's enough for scrolls of displacement, fireshield, teleport, greater teleport, mass invisibility, waves of exhaustion, shadow walk, greater heroism and more.

Not sure about the DCs on Artificer scrolls but I bet this would be enough for adamantine scrolls to make the eCF break that DR. Elemental Weapons should be doable too which would be a nice DPS boost.

[wax_on_wax_off]

also on the note of giving up EWP Bastard Sword; why? just cuz eCF grants it doesnt mean its gonna be the only weapon used, I will have to use other weapons to bypass heavy DRs in certain mobs and bosses, so imo its almost needed unless i should be using a scimitar, but that does not grant glancing blows, so im a little confused where dropping EWP becomes non-detrimental with a -4 to using other bastard swords, as stated b4 this toon will be tight on attack bonuses

I'd swap to a MinII or other Greatsword or triple positive or other Maul for situations in which you can't use eCF.

eCF is pretty universal though, if you slot it with good and can scroll adamantine weapons (which can be purchased from the vendor) then only cold iron is outstanding. I'm not sure on the UMD of the scroll but I'd be ok with hanging out for an Artificer for the times that you need it. Not sure if you can buy bykesh scrolls but their only level 1 artificer so perhaps you can.

[Lauf]

also did u take in account for superior ardor for healing aura? because with that and healing amp enh and item that healing aura will be hitting over 20.

I did not factor in superior ardor, but it doesn't stack with devotion items.

with my build I went the human route for the 30% healing amp, and with it I was getting 16 from the aura.
point being that if you pop superior ardor and boost the healing from 50% (superior devotion) to 75% of superior ardor, I would expect to see 15 or 16 healed per tick.

and as a side note - a great item to have for a build such as yours is a major healing lore con-op greensteel item.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I did not factor in superior ardor, but it doesn't stack with devotion items.

with my build I went the human route for the 30% healing amp, and with it I was getting 16 from the aura.
point being that if you pop superior ardor and boost the healing from 50% (superior devotion) to 75% of superior ardor, I would expect to see 15 or 16 healed per tick.

and as a side note - a great item to have for a build such as yours is a major healing lore con-op greensteel item.

No way, stick with normal greensteel items:
Conc-opp +45 HP Greensteel goggles (+6 constitution skills)
Air guard +6 charisma skills, +150 SP GS swappable accessory (boots is maybe a good place but other places can work too).

Major Healing lore you will either get by swapping in Gloves of Eternity, Staff of the Fleshshaper, Blue Dragon Scale or Cannith Crafted Major Healing Lore item (preferably large augment slotted for more HP or SP too).

[Lauf]

No way, stick with normal greensteel items:
Major Healing lore you will either get by swapping in Gloves of Eternity, Staff of the Fleshshaper, Blue Dragon Scale or Cannith Crafted Major Healing Lore item (preferably large augment slotted for more HP or SP too).

major healing lore provides a serious boost to the healing you can get from your aura, not to mention other spells. ideally you would want to have it on you at all times and not as a swap in item.
of the items you have listed the only suitable item for everyday use is the gloves, and that's really the only useful thing on them, which means losing an item slot for the sake of getting the healing lore.

the boost your aura would get would IMO be more valuable than 45 hp, and your 2nd GS item could be a 45 hp heavy fort protection item.
major healing lore has no other 3rd tier bonus other than con op, making a hp con op item redundant.

hopefully the reasoning behind my suggestion is a little clearer now

[wax_on_wax_off]

major healing lore provides a serious boost to the healing you can get from your aura, not to mention other spells. ideally you would want to have it on you at all times and not as a swap in item.
of the items you have listed the only suitable item for everyday use is the gloves, and that's really the only useful thing on them, which means losing an item slot for the sake of getting the healing lore.

the boost your aura would get would IMO be more valuable than 45 hp, and your 2nd GS item could be a 45 hp heavy fort protection item.
major healing lore has no other 3rd tier bonus other than con op, making a hp con op item redundant.

hopefully the reasoning behind my suggestion is a little clearer now

You don't need to keep major healing lore on to benefit aura. Just equip it before you hit aura and the swap it out again and you're sorted for the duration of the aura.

Lore of some description on aura/burst is great of course, in the past I've been fine using the gloves and just swapping them in for dedicated healing and otherwise relying greater arcane lore or even normal arcane lore (like on the trinket from reign of madness).

[Memek]

The original split isnt as bad at meleeing as some people pretend in this thread. It does slightly less damage than a Paladin and has magnitudes better healing.

It is true that many players are a lot less forgiving in your build if there are Cleric levels included than if you made a horrible gimp of any other class, so the warning is not unjustified... But converting to S&B gimp will NOT help here.

It is true that the build will have trouble hitting high AC creatures but so do many melees, Paladins, dark Monks, Rangers etc. Only Barbs and Kensais dont have to worry all that much about the high AC stuff.

Personally i wouldnt splash that deeply for a melee Cleric, especially if all you get a few extra HP from DoS1. What does Paladin 6 really give? The hate, alright, and few HP. Now the hate clicky would be useful but in the state of the game nowadays with every Fighter and every Paladin being a wannabe tank, you dont need a Cleric to try to go for the aggro. It's not that you couldnt do it with +100% aggro, it's that half the melees in your group can do it too and are already gleefully stroking their shields for when the boss comes - some never even put away their shields. (And the other half of the melees would just need some hate gear to lock down the aggro - of course, not with a shield)
If the meta game was different and there werent so many "tanks" around, it would seem like a better idea.

Cleric 18/ Monk 2, sure has bad saves but Paladin dilli could help. Cleric 16/ Paladin 2/ Monk 2, better saves, a few more Cleric levels than the original build.
FvS have strong Reflex saves though so you'd be less dependent on the Paladin stuff.

[notforyou]

Cleric 18/ Monk 2, sure has bad saves but Paladin dilli could help.

its amazing no1 reads previous posts. kinda hard to take pala dilli being a human and all

[notforyou]

I'd swap to a MinII or other Greatsword or triple positive or other Maul for situations in which you can't use eCF.

eCF is pretty universal though, if you slot it with good and can scroll adamantine weapons (which can be purchased from the vendor) then only cold iron is outstanding. I'm not sure on the UMD of the scroll but I'd be ok with hanging out for an Artificer for the times that you need it. Not sure if you can buy bykesh scrolls but their only level 1 artificer so perhaps you can.

lvl 1 arti scrolls have a base umd of 40

[notforyou]

My pure WF FvS (with same access to UMD but lower charisma) can scroll teleport scrolls with a good chance of success with appropriate gear.

11 base
10 charisma (not sure where you're getting 30 from but ok)
3 competence (golden cartouche)
3 enhancement (epic big top/epic spyglass from Crystal Cove or +1 from big top otherwise)
4 GH
2 luck (HoGF/Epic Buccaneers Ring or slotted elsewhere)
6 GS Cha skills SP item (air guard for this build)
5 human versatility: skills
=44

That's enough for scrolls of displacement, fireshield, teleport, greater teleport, mass invisibility, waves of exhaustion, shadow walk, greater heroism and more.

Not sure about the DCs on Artificer scrolls but I bet this would be enough for adamantine scrolls to make the eCF break that DR. Elemental Weapons should be doable too which would be a nice DPS boost.

u realize while ur using addy weapons scroll ur weapon(s) is in ur inventory therefore not enchanting ur weapon. addy weps is 41 umd, planar weps is 47, it also seems ur umd is very situational. if have gone h-elf arti dille would work for free with no umd but once again ur weapon(s) will be in ur pack thereby not enchanting them

[wax_on_wax_off]

u realize while ur using addy weapons scroll ur weapon(s) is in ur inventory therefore not enchanting ur weapon. addy weps is 41 umd, planar weps is 47, it also seems ur umd is very situational. if have gone h-elf arti dille would work for free with no umd but once again ur weapon(s) will be in ur pack thereby not enchanting them

Again, try to check your facts so people don't have to come and shoot you down.

If you put a weapon in your offhand and your arti scroll in my main hand and use the scroll then your offhand weapon will be enchanted.

This has worked for many characters utilising masters touch for eons and isn't even new with Artificer :)

[notforyou]

great so u can do that but then have to repeat it every 3 min. so with human versatility u could only have that up for a total of 15 min. also competence and enhancement item bonuses dont stack currently, surely this is bugged but for the time being they dont.


Again, try to check your facts so people don't have to come and shoot you down.

If you put a weapon in your offhand and your arti scroll in my main hand and use the scroll then your offhand weapon will be enchanted.

This has worked for many characters utilising masters touch for eons and isn't even new with Artificer :)

u dont have to have a wep in ur offhand for masters touch to work, so i have no idea where ur going with that

[wax_on_wax_off]

great so u can do that but then have to repeat it every 3 min. so with human versatility u could only have that up for a total of 15 min. also competence and enhancement item bonuses dont stack currently, surely this is bugged but for the time being they dont.



u dont have to have a wep in ur offhand for masters touch to work, so i have no idea where ur going with that

Competence and enhancement certainly stack unkess it's changed since yesterday when I had to swap in both big top and cartouche to equip a RR item.

For you to masters touch yourself you need to have a weapon in your offhand, I'm not sure what is confusing about that.

Adamantine Weapons can be scrolled by any friendly high UMD character, not just an Artificer and if doing it yourself then even 50% success would be fine. Once cast it lasts for 6 minutes which is plenty long.

Again, eCF for most things, Greatsword/Maul for everything else, no point wasting a feat for the 5% of the time that eCF is inappropriate. Mind you, pre-recent update I wouldn't be making this argument as eCF used to have lightning strike. Now that it has disintegrate instead it really is as close to a universal weapon as you are likely to find.

[Shyver]

I capped a 12 cleric/6 paladin/2 monk build, and I have to tell you, it was one of the most fun builds I have ever played. The survivability/solo ability of it is amazing, and if playing with other decently skilled players that don't require a babysitter, you can heal 6 man parties in leveling content without any real issue. The DPS isn't top notch, nor is the healing, but it makes for a great build to play that is enjoyable.

That being said, it is not a build for endgame raiding/epic questing unless you are geared to the teeth, have multiple TR's under the belt, or have a good guild that doesn't mind bringing you along. It plays as a support DPS/Healing build similiar to a bard or arti without the group benefits that the other 2 classes bring to a group. That will be a hurdle in PUG groups letting you come along because if looking for pure DPS there are going to be better choices, and if looking for pure healing there are going to be better choices.

Overall I say go for it, it was some of the best times I've had leveling a character, but if the you enjoy the endgame over the trip to cap I'd say stay away from a build like this. If you want to take a look at it I'll post the link to my build:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294199&highlight=lionshaman