Melee or Ranged? WF or Human?

[Kyln]

Hello all,

I want to roll up my first Artificer, but I am uncertain which direction I should take him. For long term viability is ranged or melee preferred? I have no gear set aside for the character if certain gear is required to make either one useable and/or optimal.

It will be a first life, 32 point build. I have WF if that will make a difference, though I am tempted to go human and make this character my primary crafter, as I have been only deconstructing for months. Is it possible to take the crafting feats without gimping an arti?

Any and all feedback would be much appreciated. I have been having a difficult time finding threads that really layout the pros and cons of various builds like can be found for other classes. I am sure that is due to the arti being new, but I would like to benefit from others experiences before rolling my arti up.

[gerardIII]

(Melee) Not mine but: http://my.ddo.com/character/khyber/artificerbot/

600hp unbuffed, no epic gear, no raid gear except a Tier 1 greensteel greataxe.

[HGM-Chi]

That WF one looks pretty bad ass, but I can't help but think the melee capability is going to be subpar compared to even second tier DPS builds. Rogue with no SA, basically. Although it could be argued he makes up for that in utility for the group with buffs, etc. It certainly seems the way to go if you want to build a melee Arti for sure.

For my experience, I tried to build a TWFing pure human arti and I just couldn't stick with it. I got to level 16 and had to LR him into a heavy crossbow user. I found myself constantly falling back to Crossbow use even when I wasn't built for it anyhow, and switching over to the feats to get much higher damage from it was the way to go for me.

Granted, I went TWF because I happened to have a lit2 khopesh I wanted to keep using. THFing might make a lot of difference, in terms of better build point distribution and more effective melee in general.

[goodspeed]

ya he didn't waste points in dex and instead dropped it to focus just one 2 handed. Smart while still keeping the ability to utilize.

Man and that's just just sub par gear. When he starts to get his stuff turning those bracers into epic and slotting in tokens that things just gonna be a monster.

As for ranged or melee pretty much up to you. Both do good dmg, expecially if they crafted a lit2 repeater. Though with the arti's buffing and umding ability id venture melee (specifically 2 handed as we've seen) would come out the better trade.

I wonder how that would vie with a sword and board but splashing something else with it.

[Kyln]

Thank you for the reply's.

I don't mind that arti's seem so open to different play styles, it is one of the things that I find attractive about the class. It can be difficult to try and figure out the best direction to take one. I will most likely roll a ranged arti at this point, because it will give a nice difference in play style to my other toons.


I am still torn between a fleshie and a warforged. I am having a hard time telling how well the felshie can self-heal.

[HGM-Chi]

Thank you for the reply's.
I am still torn between a fleshie and a warforged. I am having a hard time telling how well the felshie can self-heal.

Once you can no fail umd a heal scroll, you're good to go for a fleshie, but as a WF you get all your healing in your spell list, so that's much more convenient. A WF will have higher HPs generally speaking too. As the above build can testify to!

I would have gone WF if this guy wasn't my crafter, and specifically being reincarnated into an Arty for the bonus crafting levels. I'd rather grind a TR than the crafting system. Humans are the only race than can get the dragon marks, so...

[krogyy]

i think the best choice for a melee arty would be bastard sword/dwarven axe + rune arm.
if you are int based the rune arm will add far more dps than the difference between a two hander and a bastard sword.

[Peo]

WF/Ranged has the greatest survivability.

Often I simply acquire targets (using Q) and kill them before they get to me. While soloing running backwards to dodge melee is perfectly acceptable too. Since most parties are melee focused it normally falls to the arcane to take out the archers on a ledge, but those guys are fair game to you. In short ranged Arties tend to take less damage. Maybe Melee deals a bit more damage fully specced out, but you're goal is crafter, make your gear for your Barbarian and go for damage there.

WF let's you use your Repair spells on your self. It's the difference of between hoping the Cleric prioritizes you for a Heal, or lacking that consuming yet another scroll, or *click* 300+ healed, moving on. You would be surprise at the difference this makes. You have huge leeway in things really, not a full party? No problem you'll live. No party? Who needs hireling healers? Asked to handle a section? Sure brb. Instead of buying thousands of healing pots, pick up those damage boosters early on and watch you're Rune Arm kill stuff in one hit.

[decease]

i don't really see any reason any artificer want to go melee.. i mean they have no evasion nor much health.. could have hard time survive in melee range without decent gear. plus melee aren't really that good at solo.. though purely up to your own choice

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I went with a ranged Human (with DM for crafting)
but I think a WF is (slightly) better.
(I also think a Drow would make a good Art)


My non-GS repeaters are usually getting the high kill counts in most PUGs.
(plus the Dog and "Misadventure Flame Turret get kills)

And I don't even use my Rune Arms as much as I could/should.

Many Rune Arms miss totally at point blank (melee) range.
yet do some very nice damage.

Anyway, although I have no doubt people can make useful melee Artificers....
I see no reason to do so.

The class was made to range.
Look at the bonus feats you can choose from.
look at the rune arms.

It's a ranged class IMO.

[FooWonk]

I highly recommend going either bastard sword (human, half-elf or warforged) or dwarven axe (dwarf).

Repeater damage is excellent until a level 12...

Endless fusillade with a great crossbow is incredible,
but you only have 9 uses between shrines...

My melee half-elf artificer is level 18, has 451 HP w/o GFL, is on a 219 elite streak and has no problem surviving in the front-line. The damage output of the bastard sword, glancing blows and rune-arm is continuous. Even with DEX as a dumped stat (8 to start), I have no problem hitting when I use endless fusillade (gh + divine power + divine favor + goggles of accuracy +4 == win!).

The only time my melee artificer tapers off on DPS is when I have to play party healer (w/ scrolls, wands & admixtures), or I am picking up traps for XP.

The stat mix is a lot easier:
° GTHF requires 17 STR (15 base w/+2 tome or 14 base w/+3 tome) versus
• IPS requirement of 19 DEX (16 base w/+3 tome or 15 base w/1 lvl-up & +2 tome)

Dwarf & human are easiest races for a melee artificer with:
Required Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, GTHF (3 feats), IC: Slashing
Artificer Bonus Feats: PBS, Skill Focus: UMD, Maximize, Empower, Rapid Shot (if you don't dump DEX)
Human Bonus Feat: Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword (dwarves use spell for proficiency)

If you feel squishy still, use the remaining feat for Toughness (half-elf and warforged will need bastard sword).

Re: lack of evasion: 4 of 6 full BaB classes don't have evasion and it does not stop them from being the best melee DPS in the game (frenzied barbarians, kensei) and best tanks (stalwart defender & defender of siberys).

If you feel evasion is required for melee, splash 2 monk. Problem solved.

[decease]

I highly recommend going either bastard sword (human, half-elf or warforged) or dwarven axe (dwarf).

Repeater damage is excellent until a level 12...

Endless fusillade with a great crossbow is incredible,
but you only have 9 uses between shrines...

My melee half-elf artificer is level 18, has 451 HP w/o GFL, is on a 219 elite streak and has no problem surviving in the front-line. The damage output of the bastard sword, glancing blows and rune-arm is continuous. Even with DEX as a dumped stat (8 to start), I have no problem hitting when I use endless fusillade (gh + divine power + divine favor + goggles of accuracy +4 == win!).

The only time my melee artificer tapers off on DPS is when I have to play party healer (w/ scrolls, wands & admixtures), or I am picking up traps for XP.

The stat mix is a lot easier:
° GTHF requires 17 STR (15 base w/+2 tome or 14 base w/+3 tome) versus
• IPS requirement of 19 DEX (16 base w/+3 tome or 15 base w/1 lvl-up & +2 tome)

Dwarf & human are easiest races for a melee artificer with:
Required Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, GTHF (3 feats), IC: Slashing
Artificer Bonus Feats: PBS, Skill Focus: UMD, Maximize, Empower, Rapid Shot (if you don't dump DEX)
Human Bonus Feat: Exotic Weapon: Bastard Sword (dwarves use spell for proficiency)

If you feel squishy still, use the remaining feat for Toughness (half-elf and warforged will need bastard sword).

Re: lack of evasion: 4 of 6 full BaB classes don't have evasion and it does not stop them from being the best melee DPS in the game (frenzied barbarians, kensei) and best tanks (stalwart defender & defender of siberys).

If you feel evasion is required for melee, splash 2 monk. Problem solved.

sorry, i don't really see your point..

i mean rune arm add 2d8 damage to your attack, but then you are limited to 1h weapon and no dual wield.. which doesn't seem to make up the damage lost...

the spell on rune arm do have dc and save.. so basically you need lvl 20 and good amount of int to get it to do full damge sometime in end game.. plus the spell on rune arm are all ranged..

[Azonalanthious]

sorry, i don't really see your point..

i mean rune arm add 2d8 damage to your attack, but then you are limited to 1h weapon and no dual wield.. which doesn't seem to make up the damage lost...

the spell on rune arm do have dc and save.. so basically you need lvl 20 and good amount of int to get it to do full damge sometime in end game.. plus the spell on rune arm are all ranged..

Yeah, but bastard swords and dwarven axes both act as a two handed weapon, giving you glancing blows. You give up the double damage from power attack and the 1.5x str. If we assume, say, a Str of 60, then we are looking at 25/2 (.5x str) + 5 (lost PA) = 17.5 damage to make up. 2d8 makes up 9 of that, leaving 8.5. Given how much rune arms can hit for, it really isn't hard to make up that 8.5 even if enemies are making saves. And yes, the run arms are ranged. 1 sword length away is still a range and they work just fine blasting an enemy standing in front of you in the face. The fact that you are swinging a blade not slinging a xbow makes no difference in their effectiveness. Plus, you know, the development/feats/etc for such a toon are identical to what you would need to give him an epic sword of shadows... with battle engineer and deadly weapons... 10d6 +12 weapon with that crit profile... *drool*

[FooWonk]

sorry, i don't really see your point..

i mean rune arm add 2d8 damage to your attack, but then you are limited to 1h weapon and no dual wield.. which doesn't seem to make up the damage lost....

Dual wield is a bit under +80% damage output (a bit under +100% for tempest 2). It's not at 80% or 100% because you don't get full strength or power attack bonuses to your off-hand.

Bastard Swords & Dwarven Axes both count as two-HANDED weapons when used with a shield or rune-arm. GTHF makes up around half the damage lost versus dual wielding with glancing blows (+37.5%).




the spell on rune arm do have dc and save.. so basically you need lvl 20 and good amount of int to get it to do full damge sometime in end game.. plus the spell on rune arm are all ranged.

Yes, you need INT for rune-arm DC.

Yes, you need artificer levels for rune-arm damage dice.

Splashing for evasion is only 2 less damage dice from rune arms. It's definitely a trade-off you have to consider when splashing. Artificers are well suited to be secondary melee with or without splashing for evasion.

-------------------------------------------

OP asked which is better melee or ranged artificers. The answer is, "it depends". If you want to solo, enjoy kiting trash into trains, running them through blade barriers while plinking away with IPS on, then ranged is what you want. If you want to contribute meaningful DPS in raids and epics, then you want to do as much single target DPS as possible. Two-handed fighting with bastard sword is far higher DPS than a repeater with greater ___ bane bolts.

If you only ever use conjured bolts, then your getting half as much single target DPS as a melee artificer would get with a bastard sword.

It's not like melee artificer can't use repeaters and endless fusillade. The have proficiency. Rapid reload is free. PBS & rapid shot are bonus feats. DEX 13 is the most a melee artifice will want. For a melee artificer, crossbow is not a primary weapon. It's what they use until they can reach the mob with their sword.

[decease]

Yeah, but bastard swords and dwarven axes both act as a two handed weapon, giving you glancing blows. You give up the double damage from power attack and the 1.5x str. If we assume, say, a Str of 60, then we are looking at 25/2 (.5x str) + 5 (lost PA) = 17.5 damage to make up. 2d8 makes up 9 of that, leaving 8.5. Given how much rune arms can hit for, it really isn't hard to make up that 8.5 even if enemies are making saves. And yes, the run arms are ranged. 1 sword length away is still a range and they work just fine blasting an enemy standing in front of you in the face. The fact that you are swinging a blade not slinging a xbow makes no difference in their effectiveness. Plus, you know, the development/feats/etc for such a toon are identical to what you would need to give him an epic sword of shadows... with battle engineer and deadly weapons... 10d6 +12 weapon with that crit profile... *drool*

any 1h weapon while holding nothing in off hand will give 1.5 str mod. it is not just those two.. at least according to rule it isn't

as for glancing below it is an aoe, but it won't increase your damage. as matter of fact it will decrease your damage and you get 3% to trigger the magic effect your have on your weapon. not like neither of those weapon have 5d6 base damage like SOS

there are spell that add in mod to xbow damage.. also come as a enhancement for rogue. with ranged artificer been int base their rune arm will do double output due to high dc.. witch still make range > melee











Dual wield is a bit under +80% damage output (a bit under +100% for tempest 2). It's not at 80% or 100% because you don't get full strength or power attack bonuses to your off-hand.

Bastard Swords & Dwarven Axes both count as two-HANDED weapons when used with a shield or rune-arm. GTHF makes up around half the damage lost versus dual wielding with glancing blows (+37.5%).

your off hand weapon have their enhancement, and it is likely to be better then 2d8 plus weapon damage plus their str mod.






If you only ever use conjured bolts, then your getting half as much single target DPS as a melee artificer would get with a bastard sword.

totally not true, your rune arm will do double damage due to high dc, and you can add your int mod to your xbow damage with spell. you infact done more damage with range then melee.


p.s. dex 13 almost means you will miss good amount at end game when using crossbow

[Deathdefy]

I haven't played a melee artificer, but was extremely satisfied with my ranged Artificer's dps output throughout the entire game, including end game. The only raids / epics I hadn't run on him were elite and epic Lob and MA, eOOB and eRaiyum. Aside from elite Abbott, I suspect he would have held up just fine.

Anecdotally, I have heard many people say melee artificers are pretty gimpy. Not as in unplayable awful, just as in not as good as a real melee. I appreciate on paper maybe they are comparable, but if someone has actually played one that would be enlightening.

[FooWonk]

Anecdotally, I have heard many people say melee artificers are pretty gimpy. Not as in unplayable awful, just as in not as good as a real melee. I appreciate on paper maybe they are comparable, but if someone has actually played one that would be enlightening.

I have one. I am playing one.

I played three artificers on lam. Two used crossbow, one used bastard sword. I picked the strongest overall build for live. The crossbow users were the weaker of the builds.

Rune arm DC's were the same between all the builds, because all the builds had 40 INT at 20.

Rune arm damage was slightly higher on the build that reached 20 versus the two that I stopped playing at 17.

Only two-handed weapons wielded with two-hands, give 1.5x STR modifier to damage. Off-hand weapons only get 0.5x STR modifier added to damage. Adding a second weapon will not give you 2x the damage. In practice wield two identical weapons only increases DPS 60-65% or 80-85% for Tempest 2.

Artificer cannot compete with fighter or barbarian for DPS. A good rune-arm helps. Using a repeater instead of a melee weapon hurts.

[krogyy]

any 1h weapon while holding nothing in off hand will give 1.5 str mod. it is not just those two.. at least according to rule it isn't

i don't know about this. afaik if you fight with one 1-hander you don't get the increased mod but need to double check this



as for glancing below it is an aoe, but it won't increase your damage. as matter of fact it will decrease your damage and you get 3% to trigger the magic effect your have on your weapon. not like neither of those weapon have 5d6 base damage like SOS

rune arm effect applies to all galncing blows 100% of the time. toven's hammer adds on average 16 electrical dmg per hit, for example.



there are spell that add in mod to xbow damage.. also come as a enhancement for rogue. with ranged artificer been int base their rune arm will do double output due to high dc.. witch still make range > melee

the same spell works when fighting with a 1-hander

not going to discuss rogue splashes as i think it is off topic.



your off hand weapon have their enhancement, and it is likely to be better then 2d8 plus weapon damage plus their str mod.

by using two weapons with an artificer you lose the effects of the rune arm both in the main hand and in the glancing blows without counting the rune blasts. not even a contest



totally not true, your rune arm will do double damage due to high dc, and you can add your int mod to your xbow damage with spell. you infact done more damage with range then melee.

melee artificers can be int based too, the same spell works nonetheless.



p.s. dex 13 almost means you will miss good amount at end game when using crossbow

whenever you need to range on a melee artificer you can aswell use insightfull strike if you have problems hitting.

[Deathdefy]

I'm genuinely sold on the viability of a melee artificer now. Thanks FooWonk and kroggy.

Do either of you know if the weirder procs of the rune arms; i.e. disruption/banishing/smiting/lightning strike can also apply to glancing blows?

[FooWonk]

I'm genuinely sold on the viability of a melee artificer now. Thanks FooWonk and kroggy.

Do either of you know if the weirder procs of the rune arms; i.e. disruption/banishing/smiting/lightning strike can also apply to glancing blows?

There is around a 7% chance for glancing blows to proc weapon special effects. I have had lightning strikes trigger on glancing blows from my Lit2 bastard sword.

Rune-arm imbues proc on 100% of glancing blows.

I will do more testing when I get one of those rune-arms.

[Malison]

p.s. dex 13 almost means you will miss good amount at end game when using crossbow

Dex 13 base + 2 tome + 6 item + 1+2 exceptional (gilvenor's ring?) = 24

to-hit:
15 BAB
5 divine power
3 divine favor
7 dex
4 crafted on rune arm
4 greater heroism
5 tharne's goggles
1 enhancement
7 weapon (5 plus 2 battle engineer)
1 point-blank shot
1 haste
=53

Some AC benchmarks,


Epic trash mostly varies from 48 to 55, with some (rare) mobs like the toughest melee Windlasher Gnolls in Wiz-King being in the ~58-60 range.

Epic bosses vary; some of the most important ones are in the high 60s (Lailat 65; Turigulon 67 or 68, Malicia 68). Few builds indeed can hit these on a 2 on their first attack or while moving.

Of course, debuffs can reduce these AC figures.

Also note that your artificer's dog, who contributes near-negligible dps at endgame, can happily wield a Maladroit of Improved Destruction module and drastically drop enemy AC.

[Kyln]

Update:

I built a ranged artificer and loving it. In fact, I am enjoying it so much I am thinking of rolling a melee artificer to try the melee angle and see of fun and or different that is. Anyone have any luck on a melee build through 20?

[goodspeed]

Both are fun to play. Especially ranged. At level 6 when you get that tommy gun enhancements it's just badass.

IDK about ranged at end though. Expecially with the arti's capstone. Basically use any scroll and use it to it's full potential? With some cleric scrolls namely that one that increases hit to fighters level that is a very nice thing. Enough so that you could then take and use your int mod which should just be right up there what with 18 to start, levels, gear, and enhancments for the dmg mod.

Add even more if you threw a human or helf in there for the versatility 20% dmg to stack at the same time with that facade. I mean ****, arti's are **** near the key to most situation. The versatility can mix for just about anything. And on a second life with a slew of GS repeaters. God id be just so much fun lol.

That said I also wouldn't mind an arti having an ESOS. Oh the fun things he could do with that. Especially as a helf!!!. Sadly that dream will probably be quite a ways off for me.

[FooWonk]

Update:

I built a ranged artificer and loving it. In fact, I am enjoying it so much I am thinking of rolling a melee artificer to try the melee angle and see of fun and or different that is. Anyone have any luck on a melee build through 20?



I just capped my melee artificer. BTW, even though Fuykali was specced for melee, there was little reason to melee until level 12.