Should my Arti dip Rogue?

[Bowmagus]

I'm running my first Arti, and would be grateful for a bit of advice.

I'm considering dipping a couple levels of rogue onto my Arti, and am not sure whether to go with 2 for evasion, or take an extra for the +2d6 sneak damage.

I definitely don't want to go all the way to mechanic, as that would cost me the top level Arti spells.

Alternatively, should I stay as a pure?

What I want is the ability to effectively solo (there's never a group doing what I want) but still to be an effective support for traps/locks etc. when running with a group. I'm hoping that this toon is the one I get all the way, so I don't want to hamper myself for the later stages.

Thanks for your input.

[Deathdefy]

Stay pure.

The capstone is amazing and more than compensates for evasion to my mind; if it didn't, 2 Monk would be my choice for the 2 bonus feats.
+
The extra 2/3 levels of artificer rune arm damage (affected by enhancements and clickies) will more than make up for your sneak attack damage.
+
If you want to get into end-game pugs more easily, 2/3 Rogue will be off-putting to some leaders.

Artificers get OL, DD, Search, etc. as you know I'm guessing.



Hopefully the following is irrelevant:

There's occasionally an idea on these forums that many trap boxes are hidden behind traps and thus need evasion.
An exhaustive list of quests where that is true follows:
-Tomb of the Shadow King (easily solvable by telling your own dog to hit the light altar past the trap corridor. It won't get hit.)
-Von 5. You'll take a single hit from a spinning blade trap twice (first box in the trap corridor if you're unlucky and then again if you're unlucky for the box in the corner just outside the final room), and maybe a double hit from the slicing blade in the room W of the main room. Worst case scenario, you take a res next to the box.

[Postumus]

Hopefully the following is irrelevant:

There's occasionally an idea on these forums that many trap boxes are hidden behind traps and thus need evasion.
An exhaustive list of quests where that is true follows:
-Tomb of the Shadow King (easily solvable by telling your own dog to hit the light altar past the trap corridor. It won't get hit.)
-Von 5. You'll take a single hit from a spinning blade trap twice (first box in the trap corridor if you're unlucky and then again if you're unlucky for the box in the corner just outside the final room), and maybe a double hit from the slicing blade in the room W of the main room. Worst case scenario, you take a res next to the box.

Sound advice if the player has memorized every single trap and trap box location in every quest. For the rest of us mere mortals, evasion comes in handy. A lot.

In more situations than just defusing traps. Against elementals, casters, dragons, hell hounds, and the like; as well as making it more likely to successfully navigate fixed traps like monastery of the scorp, Flesh maker's lab, crucible, etc etc etc.

To the OP: evasion is handy. If you have insightful reflexes on an artificer it can be really handy. You just have to determine if missing out on the capstone is worth it for you.

[Deathdefy]

Evasion is very nice. I honestly was directing the end of the above post solely toward the concern of 'you can't cover traps if you don't have evasion'.

To re-iterate what I said above though; don't get 2 rogue for evasion; get 2 monk if evasion overcomes the Arti level advantages to your mind. The 2 bonus feats are much better than the rogue SA.

As I said, I still wouldn't do it. The capstone is effectively +7 To-hit and +3 Damage from the ability to keep Divine Power and Divine Favor clickies going near-fulltime with 2.30ish timers for every charge.

[Jaid314]

in general, "merely" having a good reflex save is enough to keep you alive through a lot of the same situations where evasion would keep you alive. i recall a recent run through monastery of the scorpion (not elite) where our evasion character died in the spikey ceiling of death. i was able to roll in with my pale master and, taking my time, make my way to the tile and activate it so that we could continue on. i was also able to frequently take a couple of hits from the other traps in that quest before the rogue cleared them.

would it have been nicer if i had evasion? absolutely, no question. but merely having a good reflex save (and decent hit points) was "good enough", and tends to be good enough most of the time.

[karl_k0ch]

If you want to splash for Evasion, Monk adds much more than Rogue. There is too much overlap between Rogue and Arty: Trap skills and UMD are unlocked as class skills anyway, and extra SA damage is not that great for ranged and THF characters as it is for TWF characters.
2 Monk, on the other hand, adds two feats (not that Arties are exactly feat-starved, but that's +44 HP in the worst case), better saves, and +9 HP, compared to 2 rogue levels.

[jcoffey]

I am currently a 2 Rogue/17 Arti.

Thier stats compliment each other and I am having a blast.

I have 432HP and 1500SP.
My pet has 550HP and 67ac self-buffed.
I went with a WF

If you got Monk you would have yet another stat to worry about.

I am having a blast and glad I chose what I did.Many times Evasion is what meant me living and the non evaders died.

I have plenty of Feats,in my opinion 2 Monk would just be yet something else to worry about.With Rogue I got plenty of skill points to have a great UMD and other useful skills.
I can cast rez scrolls with no fail and cast teleport and other useful ones while having a great Balance and such.

[Doxmaster]

^
What exactly are these extra things you are worrying about?

Hotbar the Stances you plan to use.
Keep your normal stats
Pick up a useful feat or toughness if there are no more useful feats you need.

Done.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I am currently a 2 Rogue/17 Arti.

Thier stats compliment each other and I am having a blast.

I have 432HP and 1500SP.
My pet has 550HP and 67ac self-buffed.
I went with a WF

If you got Monk you would have yet another stat to worry about.

I am having a blast and glad I chose what I did.Many times Evasion is what meant me living and the non evaders died.

I have plenty of Feats,in my opinion 2 Monk would just be yet something else to worry about.With Rogue I got plenty of skill points to have a great UMD and other useful skills.
I can cast rez scrolls with no fail and cast teleport and other useful ones while having a great Balance and such.

You don't worry about an extra stat with monk splash. You do everything exactly as you would a normal artificer you just get evasion on top of it (and lose the capstone).

Monk splashed arti's can do everything you mention but have better saves and more HPs (by a small margin).

That said, I definitely wouldn't splash on an artificer. If you go half-elf you can get effectively +10 reflex save over warforged using a combination of trap sense II and rogue dexterity I (both from rogue dilettante) and then hitting versatility: saves boost. This will close to guarantee that you'll only take half damage from traps and if you make a decent investment into your HP then you'll survive whatever is being thrown at you. Not to mention that half-elf has significantly better DPS than warforged from the extra +3d6 sneak attack damage ...

The capstone is well worth staying pure for and staying pure will be easier to level up as you'll get better abilities sooner (insightful damage, battle engineer, flame turret, armour of speed, blade barrier, improved precise shot etc). In fact, if I did want a splashed arti then I'd probably end up not taking the second level until I had blade barrier much like I did on my rogue splashed wizard (where I didn't get the second rogue level until I had finger of death at level 13 wizard).

[jcoffey]

I always thought if I splashed Monk I would have to put points into Wisdom which for me would take away from my main Arti Stats.

I went WF for the immunities and being able to use Reconstruct for full amount without having to spend enhancment points.

I am not the type that wants to rely on my boost or clickies unless I absolutly have too.

I am still a novice so I will have to try the Planner to see if maybe I should have went Monk Splash although I feel your advice for staying Pure is probably a persons best bet. =)

[Calebro]

Hopefully the following is irrelevant:

There's occasionally an idea on these forums that many trap boxes are hidden behind traps and thus need evasion.
An exhaustive list of quests where that is true follows:
-Tomb of the Shadow King (easily solvable by telling your own dog to hit the light altar past the trap corridor. It won't get hit.)
-Von 5. You'll take a single hit from a spinning blade trap twice (first box in the trap corridor if you're unlucky and then again if you're unlucky for the box in the corner just outside the final room), and maybe a double hit from the slicing blade in the room W of the main room. Worst case scenario, you take a res next to the box.

Your list is nowhere *near* exhaustive, as you claim.
A few traps you *have* to run through, just off the top of my head: Tangleroot, Bring me the Head of Ghola Fan, Slavers of the Shrieking Mines, Monastery of the Scorpion, Inferno of the Damned, STK....
You know what? I can stop now. I've already quadrupled your list, and I wasn't even trying.

There are plenty of places where you need to navigate a trap in order to progress. Whether or not you feel those places are worth it for losing the capstone is a personal choice, but don't try to pretend that they don't exist.

[karl_k0ch]

No, you dont need Wis to make a monk splash work.

Evasion, Saves and the feats are enough to make a Monk splash a great thing.
Imho, you can safely ignore all the other traits of a Monk, such as AC-bonus, centeredness, stances and finishing moves. It's a bit cheezy, I admit that, but that's the way monk splashes are being (ab)used since Mod7.

Re. Traps and Boxes. Monastery of the scorpion.

[voodoogroves]

... but that's the way monk splashes are being (ab)used for the entirety of 3rd edition D&D, including here in DDO and even more/worse in PNP.

It's an awesome dip

[Jaid314]

Your list is nowhere *near* exhaustive, as you claim.
A few traps you *have* to run through, just off the top of my head: Tangleroot, Bring me the Head of Ghola Fan, Slavers of the Shrieking Mines, Monastery of the Scorpion, Inferno of the Damned, STK....
You know what? I can stop now. I've already quadrupled your list, and I wasn't even trying.

There are plenty of places where you need to navigate a trap in order to progress. Whether or not you feel those places are worth it for losing the capstone is a personal choice, but don't try to pretend that they don't exist.

in general, there are safe spots for those traps and boxes. does evasion help? sure, it's a useful tool. but it isn't *needed*, it is merely *nice* to have. many other traps can be timed or otherwise avoided as well.

[Calebro]

in general, there are safe spots for those traps and boxes. does evasion help? sure, it's a useful tool. but it isn't *needed*, it is merely *nice* to have. many other traps can be timed or otherwise avoided as well.

I never claimed otherwise, but read his statement.



Hopefully the following is irrelevant:

There's occasionally an idea on these forums that many trap boxes are hidden behind traps and thus need evasion.
An exhaustive list of quests where that is true follows:


He then listed a total of two quests, and called it exhaustive.
It was extremely misleading to the point of being flat out incorrect, and I called him on it.

You want some more while I'm at it?
Co6, Sins of Attrition, Von3, Von4, Chains of Flame, Wiz King.... the list goes on....

[Jaid314]

I never claimed otherwise, but read his statement.



He then listed a total of two quests, and called it exhaustive.
It was extremely misleading to the point of being flat out incorrect, and I called him on it.

You want some more while I'm at it?
Co6, Sins of Attrition, Von3, Von4, Chains of Flame, Wiz King.... the list goes on....

the ones you've listed don't really need evasion to disarm the traps. evasion is nice. it is not required.
the only ones where you really *need* evasion to disarm the traps, are the ones where there is no safe spot from which you can disarm the box. just about anything else, evasion can help, but usually good timing/knowledge and a good reflex save are enough. heck, even the ones he listed as *needing* evasion weren't entirely accurate. there really are very few places that have the box inside a trap with no safe spot available.

the safe spot may sometimes be very small, but it is usually there.

[Calebro]

Once again, I never claimed that evasion was needed. My claim was that his "exhaustive list" of "trap boxes are hidden behind traps" containing exactly two quests was completely inaccurate.
And for the record, I will repeat myself yet again:
There are plenty of places where you need to navigate a trap in order to progress. Whether or not you feel those places are worth it for losing the capstone is a personal choice, but don't try to pretend that they don't exist.

[Deathdefy]

I should have been clearer. The only quests where you have to take a hit from a trap to get to the trapbox. i.e. make a save, are in Von 5 and Shadow King. My fault for lack of clarity.

I stand 100% behind my initial statement; that the only quests where the trap box is behind the trap such that you need evasion are in Von 5 and Shadow King.

Co6:
All avoidable.

Von3:
All avoidable. Save the one at the end that is non-disarmable and I was limiting myself to talking about boxes behind traps.

Von4:
The force trap is again avoidable, even if you trigger it; though I concede it's hard to do reliably, and I would certainly opt against doing so even with evasion unless someone insisted on shrining.

Chains of Flame:
Invariably avoidable.

Wiz King:
Invariably avoidable.

Tangleroot:
I personally can't get to the top without hitting a trap, though I suspect it's possible. Risking going through the final set of traps even with evasion is something I consider unwise.

Bring me the Head of Ghola Fan:
All avoidable.

Slavers of the Shrieking Mines:
All avoidable.

Monastery of the Scorpion:
All avoidable. Ceiling included.

Inferno of the Damned:
Hug the wall / jump and timing. I often get hit because I am bad and careless in this quest, but you certainly don't have to.

STK:
All Avoidable.

Edit: Forgot Sins, which are again all avoidable.

[raginbull00]

Out of 20 toon level's, what levels would you take the two monk levels? Does it matter?

[Calebro]

Out of 20 toon level's, what levels would you take the two monk levels? Does it matter?

No, it doesn't really matter.
Personally I'd go with levels 3 and 8.
1) Arty for the class skills list
2) Arty for Runearm use as quickly as possible
3) Monk for the increased saves and the extra feat (probably Toughness here)
4-7) Arty to level 6 for Flame Turret
8) Monk for evasion and another feat. This gets you evasion at the earliest possible point that doesn't delay better spells. Flame Turret is only coming one level later than normal this way, while still getting you evasion prior to level 10.
9-20) Arty to cap

So like I said, it really doesn't matter, but that's the way that makes the most sense to me.

[Aashrym]

I'm more a fan of the capstone than a splash, but if I were to splash it would be monk instead of rogue.

[gloopygloop]

If you're going to splash another class for Evasion, I'd reccomend Monk for the 2 free feats. You already have all the Rogue skills that you need, so taking Rogue doesn't offer as much synergy as Monk levels offer. Deathdefy has a very good point about very few quests actually needing Evasion, though.

[gloopygloop]

Tangleroot:
I personally can't get to the top without hitting a trap, though I suspect it's possible. Risking going through the final set of traps even with evasion is something I consider unwise.

Instead of going up that little hallway with the traps, go around the outer loop hallway, get their aggro with a bow or throwing weapon and then run back to the shrine after you have their aggro. They'll run through the trap area without triggering the traps and you can fight them right next to the shrine.

[egwenejs1]

Dip Rogue? Why not do it for free - almost. Roll a half-elf arti and get the rogue dilante feat/enhancements. I'm level 8 and loving the extra 2d6 x 3 ranged sneak attack bonus damage with a +2 Keen Repeating Heavy Crossbow of Backstabbing.

[gloopygloop]

Dip Rogue? Why not do it for free - almost. Roll a half-elf arti and get the rogue dilante feat/enhancements. I'm level 8 and loving the extra 2d6 x 3 ranged sneak attack bonus damage with a +2 Keen Repeating Heavy Crossbow of Backstabbing.

Rogue dilletante doesn't grant Evasion.

When people splash Rogue, they generally do so because they get Evasion and full ranks of UMD from the splash. The trap skills are also nice, but the Evasion and UMD are the biggest attractions of a 2 level splash of Rogue.

Monk grants the Evasion, but doesn't give the UMD skills. On the other hand, Monk does give fast Unarmed attack and two bonus feats (at least one of which can be used for Toughness).

The extra backstab damage is certainly nice and if I took a Rogue splash, I'd certainly throw down the couple of AP for Sneak Attack enhancements, but it's not the biggest reason for the splash in most cases.

The reason why Sneak Attack damage is particularly relevant in this case is in deciding whether to take a third level of Rogue splash since you've already lost the capstone with the first two levels of splash and there is no PrE for level 18 Artificer for you to lose. You're not giving up a lot from missing your 18th Artificer level since you only get one 2nd level spell, 60 spell points, one caster level and 1 Spell Penetration.

Even still, I'm generally reluctant to give up spellcasting levels in a primary spellcasting class (Cleric, FvS, Wizard, Sorcerer, Artificer and eventually Druid) unless i'm getting something REALLY big in return.