Epic Ward

[Faent]

Why are all the mobs in the Cannith challenges Epic Warded @ levels 21+? That's an *awful* lot of Epic Ward. Is it really necessary to nerf necro spells in so much content? I thought we'd done away with Epic Ward, but it survived in Crystal Cove to the chagrin of many. And now it's returned with a vengeance. Please banish this abomination.

Epic Ward simply doesn't make any sense. If you want to toss a divine in with a group of 10+ lionesses, do so. Let the divine have a chance to give the lions Deathward upon activation. (You have already this mechanic in the entrance chamber of Chronoscope. Necromancers need to make sure to take that divine down first, or they're in a world of hurt.) But the across the board Epic Warding of mobs needs to go.

Especially when you throw groups of 15 21+ trash mobs at us at once, and every single one of them has knockdown. I mean, come on. The lionesses that spawn in Colossal Crystals are nuts. (And yes, my wizard did take them all down, but at the cost of over half his blue bar.) No melee can handle that stuff, and trying to handle it via nuking is a job for only the most competent sorcerers. (And then we're supposed to handle it TWO MORE TIMES in order to five star this run?)

[Chai]

2 steps forward and three steps backward each time a new epic is rolled out. It doesnt make any sense whatsoever than an animal is going to be warded against the abilities of an entire school of magic and an entire PRE based on the same. Arbitrary immunities do not belong in D&D.

[Nysrock]

From DDO Wiki:


Epic challenges

Level 21-25 version challenges are considered "Epic", however this is in name only, they do not actually set the dungeons to Epic Difficulty. E.g.: You will not encounter monsters with Epic Ward, increased trap damage, increased monster damage, or really anything resembling other epic quests. The main differences are the main objective has a increased requirement to win, and the enemies have significantly more hit points and deathblock.

[Shade]

They absolutely do not have epic ward at all.

They have deathblock only, and considering most of the mobs have HP in the 5000-10,000 range, they **** well better.

Insta kills trivialize content and remove cross-class coperation, they are NOT inducive to making a "Challenge" and have no place there.

Work WITH your melees, not against them, and you will crush the challenges.

They are not very hard and you don't need insta kills on epics. Have fun with them on the lvl20 non epic ones, stop asking for EPIC (Whats meant to be the most challenging mode in the game) to be easy.

Personally I wouldn't mind the deathblock being dispellable tho, especially in rushmoor as the phatasmals even say specificly in there bio that they are vulnerble to dispel magic, yet they are not...

As it's really the mass insta kills that remove challenge. An individual greater dispel + FoD would be fine. Wailing down 10+ mobs is too easy.

Also, if you think insta kills are the only thing in the necromancy school, you have a lot to learn about spellcasting. Broaden your horizons and youll discover the best insta killers - wizards, especailly palemasters are still BY FAR the most useful and powerful classes in challenges.

[Faent]

From DDO Wiki: Level 21-25 version challenges are considered "Epic", however this is in name only, they do not actually set the dungeons to Epic Difficulty. E.g.: You will not encounter monsters with Epic Ward, increased trap damage, increased monster damage, or really anything resembling other epic quests. The main differences are the main objective has a increased requirement to win, and the enemies have significantly more hit points and deathblock.

Fine, treat me as objecting to the universally granted Death Block. (That was, by the way, part of the original incarnation of what used to be referred to as "Epic Ward".) If you want me use the term "Epic Ward" to refer to the current incarnation of what's now called "Epic Ward" on the DDO Wiki, I can do so.

Here's how that'd look: Feel free to give mobs in Cannith Challenges (the current version of) Epic Ward. Don't give them something else, namely, universal blanket immunities to insta-kill effects.

[Chai]

They absolutely do not have epic ward at all.

They have deathblock only, and considering most of the mobs have HP in the 5000-10,000 range, they **** well better.

Insta kills trivialize content and remove cross-class coperation, they are NOT inducive to making a "Challenge" and have no place there.

Work WITH your melees, not against them, and you will crush the challenges.

They are not very hard and you don't need insta kills on epics. Have fun with them on the lvl20 non epic ones, stop asking for EPIC (Whats meant to be the most challenging mode in the game) to be easy.

Personally I wouldn't mind the deathblock being dispellable tho, especially in rushmoor as the phatasmals even say specificly in there bio that they are vulnerble to dispel magic, yet they are not...

As it's really the mass insta kills that remove challenge. An individual greater dispel + FoD would be fine. Wailing down 10+ mobs is too easy.

Also, if you think insta kills are the only thing in the necromancy school, you have a lot to learn about spellcasting. Broaden your horizons and youll discover the best insta killers - wizards, especailly palemasters are still BY FAR the most useful and powerful classes in challenges.

Deathward takes all benefits away from even being the PRE, as the SLAs stop working too. Whats left? Damage spells. Now sorcs are better than PMs, because what they built for actually is allowed to work. Anything a PM could have had, any other wizard or sorc can do better using their Ap for something that actually works.

Its bass ackward that they make everything blanket immune, when really all they need to do is limit the mass death spells to 4 mobs per cast or so. There are many more realistic ways to fix an issue than blanket immunities and HP inflation.

Your justification is like making them all immune to lightning and then telling air savants they should have diversified their AP and specced into something else. Hell, lets make them immune to slashing damage. Shoulda specced into blunt weapons if you wanted to be useful. Broaden your horizons indeed.

I do feel its realistic that mobs can buff eachother given the capability, but having every cat, rat, and scorpion spawn with instakill immunity simply because it was arbitrarily coded that way tells me they need to be more creative when balancing the game. Inflated HP and blanket immunities are not the answer.

[Shade]

Deathward takes all benefits away from even being the PRE, as the SLAs stop working too.

They don't have deathward. Or epic ward..

So many people confused.

Deathblock is NOT deathward.

Far as givem them epic ward.. Sure give them epic ward, also make everything orange named. Would result in about the same, just harder as charms woudlnt work well. Or here: Just PRETEND they are already orange named and youll have your wish.

Palemaster are extremely powerful even without insta kills. If you don't get this, you are really confused. A pre that grants a massive list of powerful immuinities, powerful non-interuptable self healing, free spells, automatical self heal aura, etc, etc to a character who otherwise had to rely on potions, is pretty insanely strong. And the SLAs DO WORK, and the Necromancy is NOT only insta kills.

If you really don't get it, here is a list of necromancy spells in ddo:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Necromancy_%28school%29

Notice that list VERY LONG, and has a ton of non insta kill spells. Yea. Palemaster is a very useful pre in epic challenges as is.

Most anyone knowledgable about the game would rank the best PrEs/classes in the game like this:
1. FvS angel of vengeance
2. Wiz PM
The rest of ****.

They also happen to be the only two classes with strong enough survivability and damage output to have solo'd epic DQ2. Yet you whine about this. Pfft. The other 10 clases are so far behind the balance curve its not even funny.

[voodoogroves]

stuff
I agree with most of that - in fact, I'll go a step further. I want variety. I really like the fact that the mobs in the challenges are different than the mobs in house p / etc. epics. Variety is what makes the game interesting. Not every mob needs to be immune to X, but also not every mob needs to be

I will say I'm kinda bummed that freaking ANIMALS have deathblock - I'd prefer my big "ward" like immunities to have some plot-like explanation behind them. Sentient enemies? Humanoid types? Why the hell not have a deathblock item, some sort of fortification, resists. But animals? I understand the time constraints on coding differences into the game, but I'd love mop-variety.


They also happen to be the only two classes with strong enough survivability and damage output to have solo'd epic DQ2. Yet you whine about this. Pfft. The other 10 clases are so far behind the balance curve its not even funny.

I completely agree that AoV and PM are strong, if not the strongest, but this statement is untrue. It's like saying no boss is resistant to light damage at all in the game ... it may sound great as a proclamation to help make a point, but it's an exaggeration.

Wasn't Merlocke the first? A non-PRE sorc, right? I'm pretty sure other Sorcs have done it too (and a google search confirms this).

Still, they are very strong - but they weren't the only ones to have solo'd it. I thought someone had on a cleric as well ... but then the point is more caster/melee in that scenario ... and the point is just as strongm PREs or not.

[Khellendros13]

Crushing Despair+ Mass Hold then dance or FtS a straggler?

Discoball, Web,

I remember doing Epic OOB before Arcane Prestige classes, inflated Necro DC's, reduced Epic HP and before you could insta kill in Epic. The whole party needed to be very good, or you could drink lots of pots.

Deathblock does not stop Enervate or Energy Drain, Mass Hold, Discoball, Web, Symbol of Stunning etc.

There is so much CC you can stack if your Enchantment DC's really suck.

Mind fog, Crushing Despair, Hypnotism all give a debuff to will saves so use them before a mass hold. Mind fog just a little in front of a discoball. Waves of Exhaustion+ Web.

There is more than 3 spells to use...even though those 3 will get you through most other epics fine.

[Chai]

They don't have deathward. Or epic ward..

So many people confused.

Deathblock is NOT deathward.

Far as givem them epic ward.. Sure give them epic ward, also make everything orange named. Would result in about the same, just harder as charms woudlnt work well. Or here: Just PRETEND they are already orange named and youll have your wish.

Palemaster are extremely powerful even without insta kills. If you don't get this, you are really confused. A pre that grants a massive list of powerful immuinities, powerful non-interuptable self healing, free spells, automatical self heal aura, etc, etc to a character who otherwise had to rely on potions, is pretty insanely strong. And the SLAs DO WORK, and the Necromancy is NOT only insta kills.

If you really don't get it, here is a list of necromancy spells in ddo:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Necromancy_%28school%29

Notice that list VERY LONG, and has a ton of non insta kill spells. Yea. Palemaster is a very useful pre in epic challenges as is.

Most anyone knowledgable about the game would rank the best PrEs/classes in the game like this:
1. FvS angel of vengeance
2. Wiz PM
The rest of ****.

They also happen to be the only two classes with strong enough survivability and damage output to have solo'd epic DQ2. Yet you whine about this. Pfft. The other 10 clases are so far behind the balance curve its not even funny.

You are justifying taking the one single most powerful thing that someone built for and take it away and then tell them that they need to understand their class better and use their secondary abilities? As I stated before, lets make them all immune to slashing damage then. Well, you shouldnt have been relying on axes and swords to play the game, and paid more attention to blunt and piercing weapons. Heres a list of blunt weapons you could be using. /posts link to list of far less powerful weapons you "should be" using, that you did not build for. ROFL.

Hilarious that you again banter that disagreement = lack of understanding, and funny also that you label disagreement "whining" and support nerfs to everyone else, but when they lay a hand on the sacred barbarian class...hooo boy, watch out. :p The waffle train is never late. /glances at wristwatch.

Arbitrary game mechanics have no place in a D&D based game. None. Its like the DM standing there all smug and making mobs that have no ability to do so become immune to the best ability of your class, the ability you spent more on to raise than anything else, "because he says so". Blanket immunities are right up there with DA. Arbitrary immunity is arbitrary. Why then even raise your necro DC at all if every pittly scorpion, rat, and dog is immune to the most powerful spells in that school? So we can cause moderate wounds them all to death? Oh wait, thats a cleric spell, as are half the awesome necromancy spells on that list.

[balancetraveller]

Crushing Despair+ Mass Hold then dance or FtS a straggler?

Discoball, Web,

I remember doing Epic OOB before Arcane Prestige classes, inflated Necro DC's, reduced Epic HP and before you could insta kill in Epic. The whole party needed to be very good, or you could drink lots of pots.

Deathblock does not stop Enervate or Energy Drain, Mass Hold, Discoball, Web, Symbol of Stunning etc.

There is so much CC you can stack if your Enchantment DC's really suck.

Mind fog, Crushing Despair, Hypnotism all give a debuff to will saves so use them before a mass hold. Mind fog just a little in front of a discoball. Waves of Exhaustion+ Web.

There is more than 3 spells to use...even though those 3 will get you through most other epics fine.

BUMP.

These are some very practical and solid suggestions. Way better than watching Shade showing off his big ***** :D

[Shade]

It's like saying no boss is resistant to light damage at all in the game ... it may sound great as a proclamation to help make a point, but it's an exaggeration.

Technically pre U11 it was 100% fact.

They did give LoB some minor light resistance (about 30 on all difficulties by testing) after I suggested they do so, to this day he remains the ONLY enemy in the game with light resistance.

Despite this minor change, the only 2man completion was by what classese? 2 Favoured Souls.. Not surprising.

A couple enemies, which per pen and paper should be 100% immune to magic, have 50% spell absorption, many players confuse this with light resistance. Examples: Iron Golems, Clay Golems and bosses based on those creatures like Crateos. They all have zero light resistance.

Re: Rest of your post - Unsubstatiated.

New challenging, challenges, which feature powerful enemies hardly qualifies as a nerf, and I'm not suggestion nerfs to anyone at all in this thread.

Asking the devs to reduce the challenge to trivial levels (and it would be trivial, the mobs have rather poor saves) is what I'd call a nerf. Challenge is a good thing.

If they want to nerf deathblock on epic enemies, they should also remove players abilities to have any access to deathblock or deathward imo, and give more high lvl enemies insta kills, see how much fun that is. Why wouldnt experienced EPIC creatures be prepared with such basic equipment? I don't see why we should have such a unfair advantage over monsters, their easy enough without such things.

I'm complete against nerfs and think they should take the high road and balance the game by buffing other things to be in line with whats too powerful. Sometimes thats very difficult if not impossible, but it should always be attempted.

In the case of these, I was a huge advocate of implementing actual difficulty settings, so casual players like yourself, that want MOAR FREE LOOT, could get it. Could have lvl21-25 have all difficulty settings, and casual would have no deathblock, while higher settings would for players who prefer more of a challenge. That way everyone wins, no ones nerfed.

[mystafyi]

Why wouldnt experienced EPIC creatures be prepared with such basic equipment? I don't see why we should have such a unfair advantage over monsters, their easy enough without such things.
by your arguement all high level mobs should have heavy fort then too ;)

[Chai]

Said it before and Ill say it again. Mass death spells are the only real OP necro ability. The only thing they need to do is limit the amount of mobs killed by wail to 3 or 4, and thats it. Then all this banter of "trivializing content" can stop. No one is single target death spelling their way through any quest or challenge that spawns large numbers of mobs like these do. Instead, they give every lowly dog, cat, and spider immunity to it arbitrarily. This has been a well rehearsed response by Turbine, just like every butt naked trash mob having high AC was when epics first came out. "Oh hes wearing a loin cloth, lemee see, hes got 70 AC" /types it in. Why? 'cause I said so".


.

If they want to nerf deathblock on epic enemies, they should also remove players abilities to have any access to deathblock or deathward imo, and give more high lvl enemies insta kills, see how much fun that is. Why wouldnt experienced EPIC creatures be prepared with such basic equipment? I don't see why we should have such a unfair advantage over monsters, their easy enough without such things.




Experienced epic creatures? LOL. Every low end animal intelligence having trash mob spawning with deathblock is redonkulous. Scorpions, dogs, lions, and spiders are all flaunting their deathblock outfits? With this "basic equipment" stance, we could also give them all 100% fort. Why is it ladies and gentleorcs, that the generals of the shavarath army, an epic dragon, and a construct boss, all run around with less than 100% fort when its sooo easy for players to get?


Technically pre U11 it was 100% fact.

They did give LoB some minor light resistance (about 30 on all difficulties by testing) after I suggested they do so, to this day he remains the ONLY enemy in the game with light resistance.

Despite this minor change, the only 2man completion was by what classese? 2 Favoured Souls.. Not surprising.

.

And its hilarious that yourself was right up there supporting the wings nerf when wings were not what was overpowering the class at all. Here just like then, the wrong solution is being advocated. Now fvs have less mobility power that will run out if spammed, but lo and behold, they are still as powerful as they ever were. Every time Turbine brings something that is not D&D into the game, it throws the game out of whack. Stacking dots for huge damage? Oh yeah, lets leave that arbitrary game mechanic in, and take their wings instead. What do you mean they are still soloing and two manning content designed for 12 players? I thought we took away their wings!!! Roafles. Meanwhile in other news, "moar dots" just became even more of a valid strategy, and we are standing here surprised and shocked that a divine healing class has no need to run from mobs it is fighting, heh. And we want to have this quaint little discussion about "trivializing content"? We have to understand what is actually trivializing it first, rather than putting up blanket mechanics due to knee jerk overexagerated forumite reaction.

[choco1212]

There are more than 1 way to skin a cat:
If insta kills dont work, then have more than 1 high dc school of magic

My primary is obviously necro as being a PM
Secondary is enchant , use de- buff spells, mind fog, crushing dispair, lion head buckle, etc, disco them, and they will dance forever, if immune to these, then there is web, still gets most mobs with a debuf spells, even if not your primary or secondary school of magic.

you have to throw the melee toons a bone to chew on now and again :)

[voodoogroves]

Technically pre U11 it was 100% fact.
Technically, completely false. Every time you've brought it up plenty of folks have countered with Crateos, Xyzzyx - but you continue to ignore that.



Re: Rest of your post - Unsubstatiated.
The bits where I was agreeing with you? Or my clarification that the first (or at least one of the first) to solo epic DQ was a nonPRE sorc? (Merlocke) Maybe it was while you took your break, dunno - but Sorcs have certainly done it - and well before an AOV could because they did it before AOV existed.

Again man, I get your style is to make bold, over-reaching remarks ... but continuing to repeat them doesn't make them reality if they aren't.

Like I said - you're wrong on the specifics but I agree with you on the bigger picture. In theory, are those PREs and classes very strong? Absolutely, but spouting off incorrect truths isn't helping your case.

[joaofalcao]

2 steps forward and three steps backward each time a new epic is rolled out. It doesnt make any sense whatsoever than an animal is going to be warded against the abilities of an entire school of magic and an entire PRE based on the same. Arbitrary immunities do not belong in D&D.

+1. Really couldnt have said better.

People can point out that they feel bad when they get outkilled by instakills wizards; instakill wizards will say that they built for instakill and they want to be usefull in what they built for; etc tec

But really, deathwarded/deathblocked rats makes no sense at all. It is just a cheap cop-out to hide the fact that Turbine Design Team is doing a poor job.

Pumping up mobs HP and putting arbitrary immunities is not epic. This "end-game" needs some serious revamp.

[kraaal]

Firstly - trivilaze content - I call shenanigans!
All insta death spells have cooldowns - if the devs feel they are over powered increase them.
This game should not just come down to dps , it makes it BORING!
Most mobs have lower will saves than fort saves add crushing despair and you are garenteed to hold if you bypass spell res.
In most epics I use a combination of holds and insta death, parlty because of timers and partly because I find the variety fun.
In my humble opinion
Variety = fun,
Mass immunities/deathblock = less variety = less fun.
Secondly -what about assasin rogues ? clearly no one cares that you completely negate one of their most powerfull abilities...which i find incredibly fun to use.

CC mobs were boring as hell to deal with ...geuss what i still always took my caster. Giving mobs blanket immunties doesnt make we want to play my melee and it still doesnt balance melees and casters, you are wrong if you think it does.

[grodon9999]

And its hilarious that yourself was right up there supporting the wings nerf when wings were not what was overpowering the class at all. Here just like then, the wrong solution is being advocated. Now fvs have less mobility power that will run out if spammed, but lo and behold, they are still as powerful as they ever were. Every time Turbine brings something that is not D&D into the game, it throws the game out of whack. Stacking dots for huge damage? Oh yeah, lets leave that arbitrary game mechanic in, and take their wings instead. What do you mean they are still soloing and two manning content designed for 12 players? I thought we took away their wings!!! Roafles. Meanwhile in other news, "moar dots" just became even more of a valid strategy, and we are standing here surprised and shocked that a divine healing class has no need to run from mobs it is fighting, heh. And we want to have this quaint little discussion about "trivializing content"? We have to understand what is actually trivializing it first, rather than putting up blanket mechanics due to knee jerk overexagerated forumite reaction.


DR + Shield-mastery in this game are so brokenly over-powered for casters it is disgusting. Turbine's divorcing Defense from AC is what got us where we are.

It's not the wings, or the BB, or whatever that makes FvS over-powered. It's that they can just stand there and shield block without ever being in any fear of losing aggro or dying.

At a bare-minimum Shield mastery should require a defensive stance to work.

[smatt]

Here it's only 7:30 am on a Monday morning and this thread has caused me to consider opening a bottle of single malt :eek::D

[grodon9999]

Here it's only 7:30 am on a Monday morning and this thread has caused me to consider opening a bottle of single malt :eek::D

We do what we can.

[Chai]

DR + Shield-mastery in this game are so brokenly over-powered for casters it is disgusting. Turbine's divorcing Defense from AC is what got us where we are.

It's not the wings, or the BB, or whatever that makes FvS over-powered. It's that they can just stand there and shield block without ever being in any fear of losing aggro or dying.

At a bare-minimum Shield mastery should require a defensive stance to work.

Yeap, exactly. Instead of making AC work in epics which is something a melee would only likely build for and thus have another way to contribute, they allowed us to take one feat to effectively jack up damage mitigation by 20% which is more effective in the hands of a caster, due to not needing to use that hand to swing a weapon to proc damage. Casters who are already miles ahead of melee, just got even better.

However...

FvS was tanking this stuff BEFORE the shield block changes. TOD was being duoed by 2 FvS who didnt run and wing all over the place. Yet the forumites peed and moaned about wings, and thus, thats what they nerfed thinking they were somehow limiting the power of the class to bring it back down to earth.

This is a prime example where they needed to take a step back, obvserve whats really happening that is making the class OP, and THEN take the steps to alter the system in a way where the gap in power between classes / roles closes. Instead they blanketed it all to one ability change (sound familiar?) which helped those that were most powerful already.

[Chai]

Here it's only 7:30 am on a Monday morning and this thread has caused me to consider opening a bottle of single malt :eek::D

Shenanigans. Never has a person needed an excuse to do such. Just crack it open already. :p

[grodon9999]

Yeap, exactly. Instead of making AC work in epics which is something a melee would only likely build for and thus have another way to contribute, they allowed us to take one feat to effectively jack up damage mitigation by 20% which is more effective in the hands of a caster, due to not needing to use that hand to swing a weapon to proc damage. Casters who are already miles ahead of melee, just got even better.

Yes, we see this stupidity in the new challenges with a lot of the red-names that are IMPOSSIBLE to melee. Their to-hits are too high and they hit way too hard to stand your ground with them. They either need to be kited or ranged (ranger, artificer, or caster - it don't matter)



However...

FvS was tanking this stuff BEFORE the shield block changes. TOD was being duoed by 2 FvS who didnt run and wing all over the place. Yet the forumites peed and moaned about wings, and thus, thats what they nerfed thinking they were somehow limiting the power of the class to bring it back down to earth.

They still had DR. Shield-Blocking DR on a caster was ALWAYS broken, Shield Mastery makes this worse. Having this form of defense work and AC not is beyond silly.



This is a prime example where they needed to take a step back, obvserve whats really happening that is making the class OP, and THEN take the steps to alter the system in a way where the gap in power between classes / roles closes. Instead they blanketed it all to one ability change (sound familiar?) which helped those that were most powerful already.

Whatever they do . . . casters having better defensive options than melees is beyond horrible and needs to be reversed. There is little point in taking melees at all in 90+% of the end-game content when they need a caster life-support system to function, you're just better off not bringing any.

[voodoogroves]

AC needs to matter

DR needs to be not-scaled / fake. That barb DR/- needs to remain relevant - the fact that damage, etc. scales and you still take some is annoying.

As it is, "normal" DR has been overshadowed by active "blocking" DR. I get it, it's neat and active, but probably too much.

Shield Mastery needs to be adjusted. Maybe not front-loading the benefit as much, where the first feat provides a little, but as much as improved. Maybe make it a stance or mode (like defensive fighting, etc.) but I'd want it to be a generally useful "choice" and not a "oh god what do I need to do to retool and fit that in".

[Alexandryte]

They don't have deathward. Or epic ward..


Palemaster are extremely powerful even without insta kills. If you don't get this, you are really confused. A pre that grants a massive list of powerful immuinities, powerful non-interuptable self healing, free spells, automatical self heal aura, etc, etc to a character who otherwise had to rely on potions, is pretty insanely strong. And the SLAs DO WORK, and the Necromancy is NOT only insta kills.

If you really don't get it, here is a list of necromancy spells in ddo:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Necromancy_%28school%29

Notice that list VERY LONG, and has a ton of non insta kill spells. Yea. Palemaster is a very useful pre in epic challenges as is.


On a whim I decided to take a look at that list.
The following can actually be cast by a PM if they are locked out of instant death spells:

Bestow Curse (debuff)
Blindness (debuff)
+Burning Blood (weak dot)
+Chill Touch (close range weak touch dmg attack capped at lvl 15)
Command Undead (...)
Contagion (randomized stat debuff or minor damage)
Control Undead (...)
Create Undead (...)
+Death Aura (inverse of cleric aura, does minor damage to enemies in range and minor heal over time to PM)
Energy Drain (drains levels which are quickly restored on epic)
Enervation (drains levels which are quickly restored on epic)
False life (temp HP, self only)
Fear (one of the most hated debuffs by melee)
Ghoul touch (close range paralyze)
Halt Undead (...)
+Horrid Wilting (High level, direct damage. Note says there are targeting issues)
+Lesser Death aura (even weaker version of death aura)
+Necrotic ray (direct damage ray with low damage)
+Negative energy burst (like the cleric equivalent only eviler, could do damage)
And about 10 more debuff spells

The ones with the + can do direct damage. Of those horrid wilting seems to be the only one to fully take advantage of the buffs to damage that PM provides, aside from the SLA's provided by the PRE.

The issue isnt so much that PM's are good at insta-killing stuff....its more that prior to epics with deathblock blanket immunites, they actually fill a hole and can use the abilities they specced for with greater effect than say a necro specced Archmage.

When you take that away from PMs....why should they be PMs?

"Well a PM can self heal!"
-Yea....so can a WF

"But its uninterruptible"
-Last I checked quicken was supposed to provide that to any spell it affected
-If the wizard is being repeatedly hit (in a group), they did something wrong

"Use other spells to fight!"
-The point of being PM was to mainly use spells that the PRE specifically adds to, otherwise you would be better off rolling an AM or without a PRE at all.

"They get undead traits!"
-Ok....so they are immune to positive healing, negate crits that anyone with minos does, gain minor perks based on the PM form they are in, and are healed by negative energy which only they will provide since no healer typically slots inflict spells for a PM.



Personally, I think a better solution for epics would be this:
--At full health, a mob has boosted saves versus death effects
--As the mobs health dwindles so does the bonus, making it easier to finish the creature off.
--At about 25%, saves are about what they are currently in epics.

This rewards players who spec for a high DC (allowing PM spec wizards the ability to finish things off sooner than another character who has instant kill capabilities) by allowing them to instantly kill a creature at a higher % of max health while allowing melee to feel like they are contributing.

It also prevents one class from trivializing trash by allowing mobs to actually last long enough to inflict some damage to the party rather than the boss having to pick up all the slack for providing challenge.


Or PMs could just repeatedly Fear things....just for the humor of watching melee run. /shrug

[smatt]

Shenanigans. Never has a person needed an excuse to do such. Just crack it open already. :p


Hmmm.. I never need excuses.. But reasons.. Yes I do need those at 7am when I'm not on vacation... :D

If they nerf casters at all... There will be an overflow of the whine vats... It shall come cascading down upon the unsuspecting town like a tidal wave crushing all in it's very certain path of doom. :eek:

I'm just sayin'.... People who are caster-centric are the only ones that snivel, cry, and moan more than the Monk-centrics.. And that Sir is saying a lot :D

[grodon9999]

Hmmm.. I never need excuses.. But reasons.. Yes I do need those at 7am when I'm not on vacation... :D

If they nerf casters at all... There will be an overflow of the whine vats... It shall come cascading down upon the unsuspecting town like a tidal wave crushing all in it's very certain path of doom. :eek:

I'm just sayin'.... People who are caster-centric are the only ones that snivel, cry, and moan more than the Monk-centrics.. And that Sir is saying a lot :D

If they nerf Khopesh at the same time the D00000000M! might cancel each other out, kinda like using dynamite to put out an oil fire.

I'm not asking for casters to be nerfed (if calling for Shield-Mastery changes is a caster nerf it shows how broken the concept is in the first place), I want abilities that melees bring to the table to be un-nerfed.

I also don't want to see anymore mobs like the Marilith in the challenges that just hit so hard that meleeing is nearly impossible, that is just very poor quest design.

[smatt]

If they nerf Khopesh at the same time the D00000000M! might cancel each other out, kinda like using dynamite to put out an oil fire.

I'm not asking for casters to be nerfed (if calling for Shield-Mastery changes is a caster nerf it shows how broken the concept is in the first place), I want abilities that melees bring to the table to be un-nerfed.

I also don't want to see anymore mobs like the Marilith in the challenges that just hit so hard that meleeing is nearly impossible, that is just very poor quest design.


Sure... Melee should be an option most of the time.. Not neccesarily without outside healing though. There should be places in the game where casters aren't nearly the best option either...


I don't care what they nerf to be honest.. Played through them for 5 years and will continue to do so without much complaint... There's always a way, and when that way isnt' fun for ME anymore... Off I go.. It's more likely the **** server performance will chase me a way first though.

[grodon9999]

Sure... Melee should be an option most of the time.. Not neccesarily without outside healing though. There should be places in the game where casters aren't nearly the best option either...

I disagree with this. If you made the sacrifices in your build for defense (AC gear slotted instead of DPS gear) and self-healing (ranger or pally over a higher DPS class like barb or fighter) you shouldn't require a babysitter. if you're an SP-sponge who grinded that 400 Silver-flame favor those ubber pots should be enough to keep you alive most of the time.

It's just poor quest design. If melees require a life-support system to be useful and casters don't need melees there's nothing there to "force cooperation" which is the key to a balance D&D game.



I don't care what they nerf to be honest.. Played through them for 5 years and will continue to do so without much complaint... There's always a way, and when that way isnt' fun for ME anymore... Off I go.. It's more likely the **** server performance will chase me a way first though.

There's a reason why I'm rolling up a Pale Master right now, if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Though with my luck by the time I get him leveled and geared casters will be nerfed :)

[smatt]

I disagree with this. If you made the sacrifices in your build for defense (AC gear slotted instead of DPS gear) and self-healing (ranger or pally over a higher DPS class like barb or fighter) you shouldn't require a babysitter. if you're an SP-sponge who grinded that 400 Silver-flame favor those ubber pots should be enough to keep you alive most of the time. [q/uote] Tell you what you.. YOU design quests that challenge every class individually and in every party make-up possible, but are still possible to solo on any class, without baby sitting, while scroll healing.... Not that easy, and in fact darn near on impossible when you actually have to do it ... IMO there shoudl be places where casters carry those poor melees.. Onyl to run into an area of the quest where the casting classe shave no choice but to sit back and lwt the melees take over.. Lest they use large amounts of resources to the point that they either have to dip into resource stores, or struggle to finish... THAT is good game balance... Still not an easy proposition though...

[QUOTE]
It's just poor quest design. If melees require a life-support system to be useful and casters don't need melees there's nothing there to "force cooperation" which is the key to a balance D&D game.
Oye, At least in my PnP days which ranged from around 1979 to about 1994 or so and then for a couple years in the 2005 timeframe, there were plaenty of tiems when when there was no way we would complete a task without other classes to help out. But I agree casters have ALWAYS been too pwoerful in DDO, well at least since Mod 4 (Gianthold) when they got finger... There are many other reasons of course.. But.... Any time they try to bring casters back down off their perch of awesome... These forums and in game the sound of little girls screaming is enough to make one stab their ear drums with an ice pick... :eek::D



There's a reason why I'm rolling up a Pale Master right now, if you can't beat 'em join 'em. Though with my luck by the time I get him leveled and geared casters will be nerfed :) I'd roll one too but the sound of them annoys me too much... Does that show you how important such thigns to me are... :)

[Chai]

Hmmm.. I never need excuses.. But reasons.. Yes I do need those at 7am when I'm not on vacation... :D

If they nerf casters at all... There will be an overflow of the whine vats... It shall come cascading down upon the unsuspecting town like a tidal wave crushing all in it's very certain path of doom. :eek:

I'm just sayin'.... People who are caster-centric are the only ones that snivel, cry, and moan more than the Monk-centrics.. And that Sir is saying a lot :D

Those caster centric individuals used to complain previous to the update that made them more powerful than everyone else. They are fools to complain now, heh.

Nowdays its the people that want casters nerfed that complain the most.

Ironically its not the quantity of complaining that is irritating, but the fact that people kick and scream about the wrong thing. FvS is a perfect example - as wings getting nerfed didnt bring the class back into line in the slightest. Instead of blanketing deathblock to every level 21+ worm that crawls out of the earth, all they need to do is change wail so that it can hit a max of 3 or 4 mobs.

Drow Witchdoctors buffing themselves and allies with deathward makes perfect sense. I actually LIKE this when I play my PM. When it happens right in front of me I feel I should have been faster on the FOD button. Scorpions, dogs, and lions spawning with deathblock is completely arbitrary, and makes no sense whatsoever.

[smatt]

Those caster centric individuals used to complain previous to the update that made them more powerful than everyone else. Nowdays its the people that want casters nerfed that complain the most.


Personally, I don't want anything..... Except less server side lag... Less having to restart client after a few toon changes.. Less incomplete in game systems like PREs that go on for years.... And the chance to have 1k point BB on my cleric... Kind of like Arti$ have.. Oh and less **** updates riddled with new bugs reported more than a month before release and left to go live and not be fixed for months if not years... Not a long list :D

I only give my point of view as to how things are powered within the game. Which is wholly different than saying I want them nerfed. :)

[grodon9999]

Tell you what you.. YOU design quests that challenge every class individually and in every party make-up possible, but are still possible to solo on any class, without baby sitting, while scroll healing.... Not that easy, and in fact darn near on impossible when you actually have to do it ...

I don't have to, Turbine's already done it.

Look at Elite Amrath, take a quest like Sins of Attrtion. It's soloable on Elite by caster, Divines, monks, barbarian, rangers, rogues . . . pretty much every archetype is viable there. It can still be challenging for groups though running through there with a few geared and TR'd Pale Masters is a complete and utter joke.

Take the to-hits, HP, saves, mob AC, etc . . . from that and scale upwards without the HUGE jumps in to-hit with LOWER saves. That's what just doesn't make any sense.

If a Pale-Master now can run through "Bargain of Blood" now and burn/DoT/Wail everything in his path, how would it be more un-balanced if a guy with AC and heal scrolls could do the quest but it takes 5 times as long?



IMO there shoudl be places where casters carry those poor melees.. Onyl to run into an area of the quest where the casting classe shave no choice but to sit back and lwt the melees take over.. Lest they use large amounts of resources to the point that they either have to dip into resource stores, or struggle to finish... THAT is good game balance... Still not an easy proposition though...


You see this in quest with a variety of foes, like EVoN3 where some mobs have such high SR melees get a chance to shine. But how many more Drow quests can they really throw in this game? :)

My issue with this in the Challenge quest is the ingredients are stupidly bound to character, if this is how it is everyone needs to be viable and not need another type of class with them to be viable.

[Chai]

If a Pale-Master now can run through "Bargain of Blood" now and burn/DoT/Wail everything in his path, how would it be more un-balanced if a guy with AC and heal scrolls could do the quest but it takes 5 times as long?


Turbine just wont give in on their belief that every epic trash mob should have a to-hit score so high that its impossible to hit an AC score thats is remotely helpful.

It wouldnt surprise me if epic mobs are coded where 2-20 is just auto-hit and 1 is auto-miss.




My issue with this in the Challenge quest is the ingredients are stupidly bound to character, if this is how it is everyone needs to be viable and not need another type of class with them to be viable.

Yeap. It means if I started farming on my caster, I have to finish farming on my caster. I sure hope there arent too many people who started farming on their melee, heh.

[grodon9999]

Yeap. It means if I started farming on my caster, I have to finish farming on my caster. I sure hope there arent too many people who started farming on their melee, heh.

Um . . . no comment :)

[Shade]

On a whim I decided to take a look at that list.
The following can actually be cast by a PM if they are locked out of instant death spells:

If you only cast spells from a single school as a wizard and expect to excel - no matter what your pre.. You deserved to be nerfed.

Wizards are an extremely powerful class because of their versatility. Playing them as a one trick pony is cause for dev concern.

It's an mmo, Epics are designed for groups. If all you care about is solo'ing and insta killing, run something else. A balanced groups challenge doesn't need to be destroyed for the sake of your one trick pony build.

And thats exactly what Post U9 epics are to me if I take along a wizard.. They feel destroyed and unfun. I shouldnt have to decline wizards because they make quests unfun, thats a utterly broken gameplay mechanic.

[Alexandryte]

If you only cast spells from a single school as a wizard and expect to excel - no matter what your pre.. You deserved to be nerfed.

Wizards are an extremely powerful class because of their versatility. Playing them as a one trick pony is cause for dev concern.

It's an mmo, Epics are designed for groups. If all you care about is solo'ing and insta killing, run something else. A balanced groups challenge doesn't need to be destroyed for the sake of your one trick pony build.

And thats exactly what Post U9 epics are to me if I take along a wizard.. They feel destroyed and unfun. I shouldnt have to decline wizards because they make quests unfun, thats a utterly broken gameplay mechanic.

That wasnt the point of listing them.

The point is...if the PRE minimally adds to the base class why bother with that one when AM can get roughly the same DCs and add more utility and damage?

And for the record, I play primarily melee characters. I occasionally get annoyed by instant kills but then realize......if they didnt at least have the option there would be little point to Pale Master at all.

Like I said....there are other options other than just blanket deathblock......like I suggested at the end of my post and was ultimately ignored.

[Chai]

If you only cast spells from a single school as a wizard and expect to excel - no matter what your pre.. You deserved to be nerfed.

Wizards are an extremely powerful class because of their versatility. Playing them as a one trick pony is cause for dev concern.

It's an mmo, Epics are designed for groups. If all you care about is solo'ing and insta killing, run something else. A balanced groups challenge doesn't need to be destroyed for the sake of your one trick pony build.

And thats exactly what Post U9 epics are to me if I take along a wizard.. They feel destroyed and unfun. I shouldnt have to decline wizards because they make quests unfun, thats a utterly broken gameplay mechanic.

Wait wait. Didnt you post in this_same_thread that you arent advocating nerfs as a resolution for issues. As I stated, the waffle truck is never late. /glances at wristwatch.

No one is speccing into one thing and one thing only and expecting to win every encounter. People just think its absurd that scorpions, dogs, and spiders with animal and sub animal intelligence are granted deathblock for arbitrary reason only, in a blanket fashion.

Whats 'unfun" is using blanket immunities to "fix" the issue, because they cant even balance their own game.

Min maxed for int and necro DC is no less "one trick pony" than min maxed for 90+ strength, 50+ con, and little to nothing in every other stat swinging one single weapon type. When they nerfed your "one trick pony" back in U5, we werent whistling this same toon about "deserving to be nerfed" were we. I think not.

Calling people "one trick ponies" in a game balanced for min maxing is hilarious.

[grodon9999]

There is nothing wrong with single-target insta-kill. it's the AOEs that break the game.

[Chai]

There is nothing wrong with single-target insta-kill. it's the AOEs that break the game.

I agree, however...

I wish we could dig up old threads, like around when the vale was released. This aint the same dixie people were whistling back then. FOD was the new in thing, and casters were supposedly making it so that melee were never needed in groups EVER AGAIN!!!! (sound familiar?)

[protokon]

hmm I only see two AoE instakill spells currently: wail and implosion. implosion was balanced from the beginning with the duration - wail was spammable. now that wail was balanced with a longer cooldown timer, there's no reason to protect mobs with blanket deathblock immunities, all your doing is pigeon holing casters again.

[choco1212]

Circle of death also

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Circle of death is arguably balanced. It requires 2 saves to take effect, which doubles the mob's chances of surviving it. The cooldown could be increased since it's easy for a high DC caster to spam that spell every 60 seconds and kill everything that gets neg leveled.



Min maxed for int and necro DC is no less "one trick pony" than min maxed for 90+ strength, 50+ con, and little to nothing in every other stat swinging one single weapon type. When they nerfed your "one trick pony" back in U5, we werent whistling this same toon about "deserving to be nerfed" were we. I think not.

Uh, there is no melee that can 1-shot an epic mob even if they had over 110 STR. You could make that argument for Assassins, but rogues suffer so badly in every other department that isn't DPS and instakills. I wouldn't want to take from them the few things that they can do well. You can't compare a class that instakills 1 mob every combat fight to a class that is essentially a walking machine gun: dealing out death to 20 mobs every 60 seconds.

And having massive amounts of HP isn't hurting anyone?

[smatt]

I don't have to, Turbine's already done it.

Look at Elite Amrath, take a quest like Sins of Attrtion. It's soloable on Elite by caster, Divines, monks, barbarian, rangers, rogues . . . pretty much every archetype is viable there. It can still be challenging for groups though running through there with a few geared and TR'd Pale Masters is a complete and utter joke. Wait are you talkign about the top couple % of players or say the top 30-40%? And how many resources will said melees end up using trying to solo Sins elite? Let alone have the patience....



Take the to-hits, HP, saves, mob AC, etc . . . from that and scale upwards without the HUGE jumps in to-hit with LOWER saves. That's what just doesn't make any sense.
Agreed


If a Pale-Master now can run through "Bargain of Blood" now and burn/DoT/Wail everything in his path, how would it be more un-balanced if a guy with AC and heal scrolls could do the quest but it takes 5 times as long?
Sins elite is harder than E-BoB, But sure....




You see this in quest with a variety of foes, like EVoN3 where some mobs have such high SR melees get a chance to shine. But how many more Drow quests can they really throw in this game? :)
Burn em.. Freeze em... Melt em.... SR isnt' all that unless you've one tricked your way into a pigeon hole.


e with this in the Challenge quest is the ingredients are stupidly bound to character, if this is how it is everyone needs to be viable and not need another type of class with them to be viable.
They're already changing the BTC ingredients to BTA.

[Chai]

Circle of death is arguably balanced. It requires 2 saves to take effect, which doubles the mob's chances of surviving it. The cooldown could be increased since it's easy for a high DC caster to spam that spell every 60 seconds and kill everything that gets neg leveled.


The term "spam" in relation to video games, and 60 second cool downs do not go hand in hand.


Uh, there is no melee that can 1-shot an epic mob even if they had over 110 STR. You could make that argument for Assassins, but rogues suffer so badly in every other department that isn't DPS and instakills. I wouldn't want to take from them the few things that they can do well. You can't compare a class that instakills 1 mob every combat fight to a class that is essentially a walking machine gun: dealing out death to 20 mobs every 60 seconds.

And having massive amounts of HP isn't hurting anyone?

Min maxing is still min maxing, regardless of who is higher up on the power scale, and we're being called one trick ponies as casters in a game that is balanced for min maxing, by the dude who is known for having a stable of min maxed barbarians. Im a lover of irony, so I thought id point that out.

Rogues only "suffer" because people refuse to open their eyes and see the class roflpwns all others in melee DPS when played correctly. Sure boss mobs have higher fort to start with, but if they have higher fort all the way through the raid, people are doing it wrong. In fact 50% fort mobs kept more fort previous to all the debuffs say a year ago, than 85% fort mobs do now with all the debuffs stacked. Its fairly easy with additive stacking to get the mob down to 0 fort in a small amount of time.

[Faent]

Wait are you talkign about the top couple % of players or say the top 30-40%? And how many resources will said melees end up using trying to solo Sins elite? Let alone have the patience....

It depends on the melee. One of my melees solos Sins Elite at the cost of about 10 Displacement scrolls and maybe 30 Heal scrolls.

[Faent]

I also don't want to see anymore mobs like the Marilith in the challenges that just hit so hard that meleeing is nearly impossible, that is just very poor quest design.

The HP on that wench makes it impossible to DoT her down too. She has to be kited.

[Faent]

Work WITH your melees, not against them, and you will crush the challenges.

The way to crush some of these challenges is to NOT take melees into them. I'm not going to babysit you (that's what you mean by "work with you"). Multiple objectives needed to be completed at an incredibly fast pace. If you want your melees to be useful in there, you should be asking for changes to the challenges, not asking for a caster to hold your hand. (And yes, you need a caster to hold your hand in order for you to survive long enough to kill anything.) You're asking for the wrong thing here.


They are not very hard and you don't need insta kills on epics. Have fun with them on the lvl20 non epic ones, stop asking for EPIC (Whats meant to be the most challenging mode in the game) to be easy.

Um, many of them are incredibly hard, if not impossible. How many of these have you six-starred? And if any, which? Tried Epic Colossal Crystals much?

[grodon9999]

The HP on that wench makes it impossible to DoT her down too. She has to be kited.

Good god, ANYTHING in this games that 'has to be kited' should be removed from the game. it is STUPID, beyond stupid and needs to go. No more quests with a dynamic of "this guy runs around in a circle for 30 minutes." It's just absolutely the stupidest thing in this game.

[smatt]

It depends on the melee. One of my melees solos Sins Elite at the cost of about 10 Displacement scrolls and maybe 30 Heal scrolls.

:rolleyes: Can I have your autograph?

[voodoogroves]

Good god, ANYTHING in this games that 'has to be kited' should be removed from the game. it is STUPID, beyond stupid and needs to go. No more quests with a dynamic of "this guy runs around in a circle for 30 minutes." It's just absolutely the stupidest thing in this game.

Side note - you do know you can control which boss spawns right? It's based on the timing of when you hit your quota (or certainly seemed to be to my testing)

[Chai]

Good god, ANYTHING in this games that 'has to be kited' should be removed from the game. it is STUPID, beyond stupid and needs to go. No more quests with a dynamic of "this guy runs around in a circle for 30 minutes." It's just absolutely the stupidest thing in this game.

What do you mean? This is exactly what I tell my DM when I play P&P when the "I glitch myself into a corner so the mobs cant hit me but I still have line of site" strategy fails. I make sure the appropriate mobility spells are in place so that I am faster than the other creatures, then run them all around in circles through persistent AOE that doesnt affect me, while spamming single target unresistable DOTs on each mob. Why would you want to be rid of this perfectly legit strategy? Because it works every time?

[Chai]

It depends on the melee. One of my melees solos Sins Elite at the cost of about 10 Displacement scrolls and maybe 30 Heal scrolls.

This is why I dont understand Turbine not giving epic trash reasonable to-hit values. Amrath elite is like the last bastion of melee being viable. Even if someone could somehow get an AC that was untouchable in epics save for bosses and such, it would still take 5x as long to solo it than a caster already can, depending on the specific quest. Its hardly what I would call OP or unbalanced.

This would also resolve the "melee isnt needed anymore in all content" dilema people keep carrying on about.

[noinfo]

Wait are you talkign about the top couple % of players or say the top 30-40%? And how many resources will said melees end up using trying to solo Sins elite? Let alone have the patience....

Agreed
Sins elite is harder than E-BoB, But sure....




Thats just it the ballance is completely out of whack, Last time I tried a speed run through sins elite just to see what I could do I managed 29 min, vs the sulu like boss with no weakness (had ship buffs) used no resources (a few clickie lesser restore and haste googles) and through 2 healing spells only in the end fight as it took me a bit to get set up. Yes I know a caster can do it faster as can a FS etc but if I take that same toon into e-bob sure I can probably take trash mobs 1 at a time and then spend hours ranging casters and named cause if I go to melee them I am gunna die despite the fact that the first general of hell can only hit me on a 20, that minataur will hit me on 2. For the most part I am better off with my Barb that can SF pot for 570+ per hit than any toon with defense in those quests.

[noinfo]

This is why I dont understand Turbine not giving epic trash reasonable to-hit values. Amrath elite is like the last bastion of melee being viable. Even if someone could somehow get an AC that was untouchable in epics save for bosses and such, it would still take 5x as long to solo it than a caster already can, depending on the specific quest. Its hardly what I would call OP or unbalanced.

This would also resolve the "melee isnt needed anymore in all content" dilema people keep carrying on about.

Exactly.

[oweieie]

If they want to nerf deathblock on epic enemies, they should also remove players abilities to have any access to deathblock or deathward imo, and give more high lvl enemies insta kills, see how much fun that is. Why wouldnt experienced EPIC creatures be prepared with such basic equipment? I don't see why we should have such a unfair advantage over monsters, their easy enough without such things.

Players are the equivalent of purple names. All those dead bodies and helpless guards in chronosope, those are your yellow names you think players are. So your idea of removing deathblock access to players makes no sense at all.

As for them being prepared, if you even took a fraction of a second to think about your own argument you'd see how every mob putting out the 400+ DPS they "should" be if they were properly prepared would bring epics to a grinding halt. It's not exactly difficult to get a lightning strike weapon now is it? How do you feel about 100% fort barbarian wolves with 100+ str and stunning blow who crit for 1k damage and do random 600 damage lightning procs with haste, displace guild buffs and, yeah, silver flame pots because they're "properly" prepared?


Palemaster are extremely powerful even without insta kills. If you don't get this, you are really confused. A pre that grants a massive list of powerful immuinities, powerful non-interuptable self healing, free spells, automatical self heal aura, etc, etc to a character who otherwise had to rely on potions, is pretty insanely strong. And the SLAs DO WORK, and the Necromancy is NOT only insta kills.

Did just fine on my PM before lich form was permanent or I could heal myself like a paladin's LoH or a clerics Radiant Burst (other than UMD heal scrolls or silver flame pots), those things are a convenience in the challenges we're actually talking about, not "really powerful." And immunities? Really, something you can get with a triple neg or by being properly buffed? This is why people should play Pale master? Are you sticking with that argument? Personally I'd be embarrassed to have said something like that. Invalidating 2 feat choices and much of the primary benefit of their pre enhancement points is something that isn't acceptable. Claiming that they have immunities so nerfing them is okay is pretty **** funny coming from a guy who screams bloody murder over a comparatively tiny 10% change to barb capstone or if they fix the twitch bug.


If you only cast spells from a single school as a wizard and expect to excel - no matter what your pre.. You deserved to be nerfed.

The main complaint brought up, that some trash mobs, such as large clusters of animals, shouldn't have death immunity. This is a valid point, and one you've chosen to ignore. If for no other reason than it makes no sense that natural animals could have these immunities, they shouldn't get them. In fact I think even using animals like that in an epic challenge is inappropriate and bad level design.

You've also chosen to support lazy blanket immunities over using the game rules present, that being saves and SR, to balance things. In melee terms giving death immunity is the equivalent of giving something infinite HP instead of giving it the appropriate AC and HP needed to make it a challenge. With proper saves and SR Wail could be made into a useful tool instead of a guaranteed room sweeper.

Also you've chosen to vent on wizards, but this isn't just a wizard problem. With nightmare weapon procs, assassinate, quivering palm, destruction etc. this effects all classes.

[Simplesimon1979]

Since they have deathblock only I believe TTS will still work. Havn't tried it myself since I really have no interest in the new pack. Maybe when they get the breclet fixed.

[Shade]

Um, many of them are incredibly hard, if not impossible. How many of these have you six-starred? And if any, which? Tried Epic Colossal Crystals much?

Seven of them. Check achievemetns forum, ss of 4 up, ill post my updated count soon.

Im confident I can solo 6 star epic25 rushmoor. Done it on non epic.. It scales to be stupidly easy solo.

Some are straight impossible to 5 star due to broken objectives. But all are at least winnable.

[Shade]

The main complaint brought up, that some trash mobs, such as large clusters of animals, shouldn't have death immunity. This is a valid point, and one you've chosen to ignore.

I haven't ignored it, and but no one has offered any compelling reason why it's valid. Seems 100% invalid to me.

AOE insta kills break the game and trivialize it, what theyve implemented is a working solution. I never said it was the best one, but it does work, and even suggested a less harsh alternated (dispellable deathblock).

losing reason to reply to you:

those things are a convenience in the challenges we're actually talking about, not "really powerful."
.. Yea how about we look at the thread directly below this one:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=351462

Wish I could solo very difficult post u12 raids on my bbn, then brag about how the PrE that allows me to do it is not "really powerful".

Palemaster are INSANELY powerful. They don't need improvements. They dont need to nerf the game because of them.

[Chai]

I haven't ignored it, and but no one has offered any compelling reason why it's valid. Seems 100% invalid to me.

Wait, wait. So you are saying that its perfectly valid that every single scorpion, lion, dog, and rat spawns with death block? Youre also saying that you do not see why mobs with animal and sub animal intelligence shouldnt all just arbitrarily have deathblock?

As I have stated before, I feel its perfectly fair when a drow witchdoctor buffs themselves with mass deathward and it hits their allies around them. Its rediculous that spiders spawn with immunity to death effects arbitrarily, for no other reason than "melee is underpowered".


AOE insta kills break the game and trivialize it, what theyve implemented is a working solution. I never said it was the best one, but it does work, and even suggested a less harsh alternated (dispellable deathblock).

No one here is arguing that there is a huge power gap between casters and melee. What is being stated is that its completely ******** that mobs just arbitrarily spawn with immunities to specific effects, especially mobs with animal and sub animal intelligence.

Every_single_mob in a quest being arbitrarily immune to specific effects is not a "working solution". Its a cop out of having to design a truely balanced game, by using well rehearsed blanket mechanics to limit the power of something they made overpowered in the first place.

The better solution is to nerf AOE death effects to a specific number of targets, like 3 or 4. This will still make wail fairly powerful, but no longer will casters be able to round up huge amounts of mobs and wail most of them with one cast.

[SoloPhalanx]

I haven't ignored it, and but no one has offered any compelling reason why it's valid. Seems 100% invalid to me.

AOE insta kills break the game and trivialize it, what theyve implemented is a working solution. I never said it was the best one, but it does work, and even suggested a less harsh alternated (dispellable deathblock).

losing reason to reply to you:

.. Yea how about we look at the thread directly below this one:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=351462

Wish I could solo very difficult post u12 raids on my bbn, then brag about how the PrE that allows me to do it is not "really powerful".

Palemaster are INSANELY powerful. They don't need improvements. They dont need to nerf the game because of them.

Melees are able to solo VoD. Divines have a much easier time to solo VoD than PMs.
Instakills are not what make VoD soloable. Just because you play a mindless swing and rage game, that doesn't make the purpose of the game for us others to just go around supporting you.

[smatt]

Wait, wait. So you are saying that its perfectly valid that every single scorpion, lion, dog, and rat spawns with death block? Youre also saying that you do not see why mobs with animal and sub animal intelligence shouldnt all just arbitrarily have deathblock?

As I have stated before, I feel its perfectly fair when a drow witchdoctor buffs themselves with mass deathward and it hits their allies around them. Its rediculous that spiders spawn with immunity to death effects arbitrarily, for no other reason than "melee is underpowered".



No one here is arguing that there is a huge power gap between casters and melee. What is being stated is that its completely ******** that mobs just arbitrarily spawn with immunities to specific effects, especially mobs with animal and sub animal intelligence.

Every_single_mob in a quest being arbitrarily immune to specific effects is not a "working solution". Its a cop out of having to design a truely balanced game, by using well rehearsed blanket mechanics to limit the power of something they made overpowered in the first place.

The better solution is to nerf AOE death effects to a specific number of targets, like 3 or 4. This will still make wail fairly powerful, but no longer will casters be able to round up huge amounts of mobs and wail most of them with one cast.


Magic is a strange and powerful thing...... Isn't this somewhere in some OLD D&D book/article :D

[noinfo]

Melees are able to solo VoD. Divines have a much easier time to solo VoD than PMs.
Instakills are not what make VoD soloable. Just because you play a mindless swing and rage game, that doesn't make the purpose of the game for us others to just go around supporting you.

I am curious if any melee have soloed Hard since the boss upgrade, I put off my attempt till then and got about 3/4 through (less geared than now though) but would be curious.

People tend to underestimate the skill also involved in people soloing a raid. Divine, arcane or melee. It is the insane self healing that allows it in most cases and the ability to keep away from the bosses in caster types but to do this in a way that uses minimal resources is to be admired.