Shroud? Make greensteel accessible another way...

[My2Cents]

All this talk about Shroud this Shoud that I'm on my 4th TR and itss too easy, I've just made 14 on my first TR and it's too hard...etc..etc..etc...

My suggestion: Make greensteel materials and crafting accessible via another means than a raid of this nature. I'm not asking that it be a cakewalk, I'm asking that first time TRs, and those who are not favoried classes to be accepted into groups, have an alternate route. Then you all can spend weeks arguing about Shroud.

I do wish there was a casual setting on raids to get familiar with them, as it is casual on quests really limits the item drops, so for you easy-button accusers, just don't run it.

I also think too many people are discussing their own experience and what is, not what the playerbase PERCEPTION is. Perception is more important than reality in this case.

I also wish hirelings were allowed in raids.

[moriedhel]

You can get comparably the same gear through the alchemical crafting - House Cannith.
You can get green steel ingredients from other quests afaik (devil assault for instance)
And you can freely buy them from the AH!

Other than to get your power shards you don't really have to even step foot into the Shroud actually :p

[cpito]

Perception is more important than reality in this case.

Not when the "perception" is that the molehill has become a mountain.

[Standal]

I don't understand why you should get the raid loot from a raid without running the raid. The Shroud is still easily completable. The difference is that gear alone no longer beats the raid. Level 20s who can't DPS Harry down before the blades come in have to actually have a plan and be able to execute it as a group.

Eventually enough players will be familiar with the new tactics required and they will start pulling PUGs through like they always did. You don't need everybody to know what they're doing, just enough to overcome approximately 1/4 of Harry's health bar in round 2. Part 5 is now easier than ever.

[Urjak]

Well my first 2 normal attempts failed ... but since then i had only completions on normal ... and I only ever exclusively PUG ... so normal is really doable if you know how to ... well if you have a gimp with 200 hp at lvl20 groups will probably exclude you from shroud, but on the other hand with 200 hp at 20 groups will exclude you from EVERYTHING (except favour runs, but oh well they dont help you getting good gear)

the difficult stuff is hard and elite ... and while I still think normal should be made a bit easier than now ... it is really very doable even with total random pugs, just try to get 400 hp on a melee or 350 on divine/arcane/ranged and you should have no problem at all getting into groups for shroud ... and many shroud pugs even accept 350/300 hp respectively for normal and still complete reliably. Ofc if you run in a group with only low hp toons ... chances are you wont complete ... but most pugs have enough toons with reasonable hp in them, so even on a low hp toon you can ride on the backs of the stronger ones to get your completion.

and ofc you can also get those ingreds from elite amrath and epic devil assault, but those are probably harder than normal shroud and if you play a gimp with 200 hp you wont complete those either ;) - and as a first TR toon I expect that you don't run on a 200hp gimp and thus you shouldnt have a problem at all. Personally i'm more worried about the first life newbies, that didnt know con is not a dump stat and now try to make the best out of it. THOSE will have problems with the new shroud (and thus I m asking for a slight nerf to normal difficulty), but as a first time TR you should not have problems at all (shroud normal occasionally wiped even before U12 ;) )

Oh and while I agree hires in raids would be cool (for scroll farming in eChrono^^), they wouldnt help you at all in shroud (hirelings dont recognize when they are standing within a trap/blades and just go berzerk attacking everything within 1 mile radius, so no help here ;) )

Oh and for alchemical stuff. While alchemical is a nice alternative for dps weapons,
a) T3 alchemical is a lot harder to get than T3 gs (epic LoB O_O)
b) alchemical weapons can't replace T3 hp, sp, conc opp items ;)

[Such755]

Make shards of power not bound.
So yeah, F2P will be able to craft green steel, but the cost will be very expensive. (let's just take the cost of LDS, on avarage 400k - for a dual shard item that's 2 mil plat right there. Not counting the cost of the rest of the materials.)

[My2Cents]

You can get comparably the same gear through the alchemical crafting - House Cannith.
You can get green steel ingredients from other quests afaik (devil assault for instance)
And you can freely buy them from the AH!

Other than to get your power shards you don't really have to even step foot into the Shroud actually :p

Actually that's exactly what I'm doing, thanks to some wonderful advice by others, workin' Cannith. I was just responding to all the posts I see about discussing the Shroud that overlook greensteel access and treat the Shroud as just another raid.

I wasn't sure I could get -all- the ingredients from other quests, and it will be some time before I can get access to all the crafting devices from guild ship. I know there's one out in the battlefield but haven't looked closely at the issue until I have enough materials to worry about it. The alternative items might be just about good enough (assuming others will accept me in a group with 'em.)

I love DA, find it hard to get a group to accept a melee, but not as hard as Shroud...

[TheDearLeader]

Re: Devil Assault, and other places/ways to Shroud Craft *other* than Shroud:

Devil Assault's Elite End chest has a chance to drop every Small, Medium, Large Ingredient, and all three Shards of Power. If you do it on Epic, you have *two* chests with that chance.

ToD Flaggers have chances for Small, Medium, Large Ingredients, but not for Shards.
ToD the Raid itself has Mediums + Great Shards in Nythirios Chest (after Part 2), and the chance for a Large, or Larges, in the Suulomades Chest.

Naturally, the Auction House is there for unbound ingredients.
The Altar of Subjugation (Tier 2) is the portion that is on the Battlefield.
Altar of Invasion and Devastation (Tiers 1 and 3, Respectively) are available to Guilds level 50 and 70 as a Platinum-based purchase.

This means a level 50 Guild could make Tier II Green Steel all on their own, and perhaps ask a larger guild to craft that final tier.

Either way, if someone absolutely feels they cannot complete the Raid - there are other options out there. Devil Assault Elite isn't bad to solo for a chance at some mats and Shards.

[Synnestar35791]

I agree with to an extent...chests & loot have always been a sore spot for me in this game... Alignment, DR, BB's, all these things factor in... Honestly, Greensteel is awesome, but there should be a manual just for the many different combinations possible....
back to the topic...
spreading materials around the higher end content isn't that complicated....
what's complicated is those people that are friends of the staff, & Devs, they are the ones that seem to weigh heaviest in the directions this game goes...
magority rules my ***, Turbine does what they get the queit long term spending crowds input on - the devs & their friends decide , screw the rest of the community....
Nah clearly politicing is playing factors here...
Old timers... defined in this game as " I've been here since launch" not "I'm 50+ Yrs old..."
We can dream tho OP....
DDO on the other hand - I doubt this topic could become reality...
/signed

[moriedhel]

Personally i'm more worried about the first life newbies, that didnt know con is not a dump stat and now try to make the best out of it. THOSE will have problems with the new shroud (and thus I m asking for a slight nerf to normal difficulty), but as a first time TR you should not have problems at all (shroud normal occasionally wiped even before U12 ;) )

Oh and for alchemical stuff. While alchemical is a nice alternative for dps weapons,
a) T3 alchemical is a lot harder to get than T3 gs (epic LoB O_O)
b) alchemical weapons can't replace T3 hp, sp, conc opp items ;)

Well con-dumping newbies will have problems with most quests anyway, you said it yourself, so i see no reason to be worried they will have problems with shroud in particular. They can always buy a heart of wood and LR.

True, alchemical stuff might be harder to get, I haven't actually bought the new Cannith pack, but some of the base items and effects are like the green steel ones, and i don't see people complaining about LoB as much as they do about the Shroud, LoB must be easier! :P

[Standal]

I wasn't sure I could get -all- the ingredients from other quests, and it will be some time before I can get access to all the crafting devices from guild ship.

You can't get all the ingredients. Shards only drop in the Shroud and are BTC. They aren't particularly rare, and you will almost always have the shards needed for an item before the ingredients if you aren't buying them.

Are you just not seeing Shroud lfms? They were rare at first on Thelanis, but they're back in good numbers now. People may still be more selective now, but I think that HP requirements actually may be lower than before. You just can't ignore the blades at 500 HP like in the past.

I expect that you will be able to get into pug Shrouds shortly if you don't have some glaring problem like no heavy fort or 250 HP on a fighter. None of the melee slots are critical, having one toon drop isn't an issue.

[TheDearLeader]

You can't get all the ingredients. Shards only drop in the Shroud and are BTC. They aren't particularly rare, and you will almost always have the shards needed for an item before the ingredients if you aren't buying them.


*sigh*

I have to dispel this rumor every time this topic comes up. Let me help you, since you couldn't be bothered to read the post three above you.

Great Shards of Power Drop in ToD.
All three Shards of Power Drop in Elite/Epic Devil Assault.

Example : Great Shard in Epic. Just one that happens to be in my list o'Screenies.

http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz36/Landar/DDo%20Screenshots/ScreenShot00175.jpg

[My2Cents]

You can't get all the ingredients. Shards only drop in the Shroud and are BTC. They aren't particularly rare, and you will almost always have the shards needed for an item before the ingredients if you aren't buying them.

Are you just not seeing Shroud lfms? They were rare at first on Thelanis, but they're back in good numbers now. People may still be more selective now, but I think that HP requirements actually may be lower than before. You just can't ignore the blades at 500 HP like in the past.

I expect that you will be able to get into pug Shrouds shortly if you don't have some glaring problem like no heavy fort or 250 HP on a fighter. None of the melee slots are critical, having one toon drop isn't an issue.


Not many groups, and too many that are limited in their LFM. No glaring problems at all here.

Doubt I could get a group to do DA epic with me (as a melee) but I can probably solo elite with hirelings and possibly get groups for elite.

22 groups on the LFM atm. No shrouds, No TOD.

[KillEveryone]

You can already get stuff for greensteel outside of Shroud.

You can buy them.

You can run Amarath.

You can run Epic Devil Assult.

Greensteel, a raid loot item, is attainable outside of the raid that it origionally came from.

[TheDearLeader]

Doubt I could get a group to do DA epic with me (as a melee) but I can probably solo elite with hirelings and possibly get groups for elite.


Grab Albus, put him on "Offense", and try to have some elemental resistances. I've soloed it plenty of times on my Kensei, Paladin, Assassin, and both Bards using Melee combat. And, naturally, just as many times with a Water Savant. :)

You'll be fine. Good luck getting your mats.

[cpito]

Doubt I could get a group to do DA epic with me (as a melee)

Have you tried? There are plenty of casters out there willing to show off thier mad skillz and let you tag along for the ride. There are even casters out there willing to help out newer players get the gear they need to improve thier characters. It's not that difficult if you communicate in a positive manner.

[My2Cents]

Have you tried? There are plenty of casters out there willing to show off thier mad skillz and let you tag along for the ride. There are even casters out there willing to help out newer players get the gear they need to improve thier characters. It's not that difficult if you communicate in a positive manner.

Just basing on a few experiences I've had. I'll try, and I'm pretty reasonable (at least in DDO :)

[My2Cents]

Grab Albus, put him on "Offense", and try to have some elemental resistances. I've soloed it plenty of times on my Kensei, Paladin, Assassin, and both Bards using Melee combat. And, naturally, just as many times with a Water Savant. :)

You'll be fine. Good luck getting your mats.

Hm. Albus, good idea. FVS.

I bet you're right. I'll do it right now. Thanks!

[Kadriel]

Now that we are done makinge GS avaliable out of shroud, can we please make Cursed Crypt flagging avaliable out of Tomb of Tormented?

[Captain_Wizbang]

/not signed.

Even with the temp changes to shroud. It's always been unique to this game, and I hope it stays that way.

Too many other nerfs & changes to the game already.

[My2Cents]

Lol just ran DA/Elite with Albus, he died early on, so I soloed the first wave.

Next wave he died right away, didn't appear to want to cure himself.

Maybe next time :)

And I agree about Cursed Crypt (from what i recall, been awhile...)

[TheDearLeader]

Lol just ran DA/Elite with Albus, he died early on, so I soloed the first wave.

Next wave he died right away, didn't appear to want to cure himself.

Maybe next time :)

And I agree about Cursed Crypt (from what i recall, been awhile...)

Sucks dude... sounds like he's lacking in performance today. -.- And there I went, talking him up.. oh well.

Don't suppose you're on Sarlona? I just finished my second solo run of the day, and I've been opening it to pugs to loot afterward.

[Qaliya]

Just completed second post-U12 Shroud.

Far from a power group: lots of under-20s, several rogues and rangers and mixed classes and other "generally not considered uber" players. And only one tank. We had no problems, just one death in part 4.

I still think people are blowing this out of proportion.

[countfitz]

Seriously, this is like the fourth thread that says "Hey, lets not focus on the problem and instead make ANOTHER change to ruin the game even further." Now, I'm not even against your idea, but the real problem is Shroud. Okay... The "Real Problem" is actually LAG, specifically LAG in the Shroud in the blades. Yeah, it's easy to complete without Lag. But the Lag is just getting worse. So how about we don't worry about making even more changes and either fix lag or make normal Shroud normal again.

[countfitz]

Just completed second post-U12 Shroud.

Far from a power group: lots of under-20s, several rogues and rangers and mixed classes and other "generally not considered uber" players. And only one tank. We had no problems, just one death in part 4.

I still think people are blowing this out of proportion.

No, you actually nailed the problem on the head and totally didn't realize it. You only had 1 "tank." Shroud is super easy if you don't take any pure melee toons. I'm personally getting real upset that people still don't realize this. Just in a Shroud two days ago. Four healers. Two SWITCHED TOONS. I was SO ****ED. We failed of course. Came back, did it with pure healers/casters, easier than before the update.

The old 2 arcane 2 healer wasn't optimal since U9, and now that it doesn't work at all people are still sticking to it... just mindboggling.

[Nexx]

All this talk about Shroud this Shoud that I'm on my 4th TR and itss too easy, I've just made 14 on my first TR and it's too hard...etc..etc..etc...

My suggestion: Make greensteel materials and crafting accessible via another means than a raid of this nature. I'm not asking that it be a cakewalk, I'm asking that first time TRs, and those who are not favoried classes to be accepted into groups, have an alternate route. Then you all can spend weeks arguing about Shroud.


Mats are available outside of the raid (as shown from previous posts)
Alternate route of not being accepted into a group: Make your own LFM's.

I do wish there was a casual setting on raids to get familiar with them, as it is casual on quests really limits the item drops, so for you easy-button accusers, just don't run it.

A lot of people who run raids are willing to show newer people or the casual crowd the 123's of a raid, you just need to speak up. Therefor, no 'casual' settings needed. If you're unwilling to ask questions, then maybe you shouldn't run the raid you're in.

I also think too many people are discussing their own experience and what is, not what the playerbase PERCEPTION is. Perception is more important than reality in this case.

What playerbase perception? Need more informationz.

I also wish hirelings were allowed in raids.

I do not wish that one bit. IMHO, hirelings would hinder the raiding group more than it would help. "Warm bodies" are better than some hireling that runs off, aggro everything, & die even when they're placed on standby mode.

My responses in red. Just what I think is all...don't take it to heart.

[blkcat1028]

No, you actually nailed the problem on the head and totally didn't realize it. You only had 1 "tank." Shroud is super easy if you don't take any pure melee toons. I'm personally getting real upset that people still don't realize this. Just in a Shroud two days ago. Four healers. Two SWITCHED TOONS. I was SO ****ED. We failed of course. Came back, did it with pure healers/casters, easier than before the update.

The old 2 arcane 2 healer wasn't optimal since U9, and now that it doesn't work at all people are still sticking to it... just mindboggling.

Actually the best run I've had post u12 had one arcane, two healers, one bard, and the rest melee. Several were under 20 and it was a one rounder in part 4. So the old formula still works if you have a group of people that are willing to follow directions.

[Qaliya]

No, you actually nailed the problem on the head and totally didn't realize it. You only had 1 "tank." Shroud is super easy if you don't take any pure melee toons. I'm personally getting real upset that people still don't realize this.

The one I did three days ago had several meleers, and two of the rangers this time meleed. No problems. (Well, one ranger died, but big deal.) We almost got him in one round, too.

[LordMond63]

Actually the best run I've had post u12 had one arcane, two healers, one bard, and the rest melee. Several were under 20 and it was a one rounder in part 4. So the old formula still works if you have a group of people that are willing to follow directions.

I cannot emphasize that point enough.

I'd add only that you also must have someone who is willing to give directions for the rest of the group to follow- preferably with a mic. By the time you've typed "BLADES!!!", four people have died.

[djl]

Do what many other smart, experienced players have done since long before U12-- run Epic Devil Assault. Takes about the same time as a shroud run, and in my experience I get better loot from there than Shroud completions. I usually end up with a large or two, or a Red Augment Crystal, which depending on the type ranges in value from a large stone to a couple scales. And to top it off, you get TWO dungeon tokens.

[Qaliya]

Do what many other smart, experienced players have done since long before U12-- run Epic Devil Assault. Takes about the same time as a shroud run, and in my experience I get better loot from there than Shroud completions. I usually end up with a large or two, or a Red Augment Crystal, which depending on the type ranges in value from a large stone to a couple scales. And to top it off, you get TWO dungeon tokens.

But the suggestion was specifically for new or undergeared characters. How many of those will even be admitted to an eDA, much less complete one on a regular basis?

[Ivan_Milic]

No, you actually nailed the problem on the head and totally didn't realize it. You only had 1 "tank." Shroud is super easy if you don't take any pure melee toons. I'm personally getting real upset that people still don't realize this. Just in a Shroud two days ago. Four healers. Two SWITCHED TOONS. I was SO ****ED. We failed of course. Came back, did it with pure healers/casters, easier than before the update.

The old 2 arcane 2 healer wasn't optimal since U9, and now that it doesn't work at all people are still sticking to it... just mindboggling.

And yet I did Shroud with 1 caster,2 heals and all others pure melee without death.
We killed Harry in 1 round,blades didnt even come half way.

[My2Cents]

My responses in red. Just what I think is all...don't take it to heart.

Casual mode for raids? Just so I can get a feel for the mechanics and basic layout so I can claim some familiarity. Most of the LFMs I -do- see that might allow melees say "know the raid".

You don't seriously think I can make my own LFM for Shroud never having done it before.... For real?

I am not a complainer, and I will not allow myself to be drawn into a negative response. Suffice it to say that I am sure after my 50th Shroud I will feel the same way you do. Or, after I obtain many of the wonderful greensteel items othwer ways or other alternatives people have rightly suggested in this thread. I'm already on it.

Just don't assume there are LFM's up for shroud welcoming melees every time you turn around. You'd be surprised.

In fact, I wonder that Turbine doesn't sponsor "familiarity events" where someone will purposely lead the Shroud for newbess to raiding, etc.

[Dreamshifter]

In fact, I wonder that Turbine doesn't sponsor "familiarity events" where someone will purposely lead the Shroud for newbess to raiding, etc.

While it would be cool if Turbine did things like that, that isn't their job. The people who should be doing that, are community members. Those experts in the raids, the ones who have done it dozens of times.

More over, it would be great if said people did it without reward (well, other than increasing the pool of decent raiders), but for the most part, that seems unlikely. Sure, there are a number of people who do such things from time to time, but for the most part? If you are new, you are out of luck.

Oh, and I can't believe people are offering alchemical weapons (which need raid stuff from what is supposed to be the hardest raid in the game, isn't it?) as an alternative to greensteel. Sure, there are now alternatives for good gear from the House C quests (and I am eternally thankful for that, let me tell you!), but the weapons... Not so much.

Or worse, Epic DA. While I can see Elite DA being an alternative (my group ran it once last lifetime without too much trouble), the drop rate isn't that great, so it might take a while to build a greensteel item.

Still, there are options now, which is good for non-raiders like me, so while I'd love a few more options for completing those mythical greensteel items, it won't kill me to be without.

[Memek]

Look,

Greensteel items wont save you if you have a picnic in the blades.
Players who stand at the wall and take a nap will have blades "randomly" spawn on their heads and they'll die.
More than once now i've read a post about a full group equipped with Lit2s enchanted with Silver from an Arti had to pull out which only tells me that even ridiculous gimps can field Lit2s (because a proper party equipped with silvered Lit2s will drop Harry before the blades are even halfway close).
An Epic Sword of Shadows will not make you immune to the blades - if you dance in them, you die.

It's not equipment related, it's reliant on a simple skill for non-healers, "move here, move there", and some fast reactions and quick spot heals from the healers during Devil blades.

I cant change the LFMs on your server, but maybe i can put your mind at ease a bit: With the recent Shroud change, muppets are hysterical and put ridiculous requirements into their LFMs. They are still wiping.
The hysteria will settle. People are completing Shroud like nothing happened, just that they have to put up a fight in part 4. Maybe on your server this isnt common yet. The muppets are still hysterical.

Soon, everything will be back to normal and you can join your Shroud, and maybe complete, maybe die horribly in part 4. Anything can happen in part 4, it's not a guaranteed completion. But you will be able to join a nice Shroud pug.

On Thelanis, there never stopped being pugs without special requirements for Shroud. First day of the new update, i joined a group for Hard, we put up a fight in part 4 but wiped; Then we just did Normal. Now, every day there are many pugs up for Shroud up without "know this, know that". It's just normal groups. Most of them complete, some do not. Most players from those groups who wiped try again and get it done.

If you got into level range for Shroud just NOW when the muppets have gone hysterical and you're worried about your completions - the Shroud is out since YEARS and since a few days you've hit the level range - you really should wait a week or two before you decide that you'd never ever get it done. Give it time to normalize. Shroud used to be extremely easy, now less so and of course the grinders whine. That is what they do when they are not busy grinding.

Give it a week or two, you'll get your Shroud and you'll take a bunch of damage, and you'll toss your LoH on yourself and chances are you'll even live through it and everyone will be happy.

Your forum posts sound like you've seriously been traumatized by the Shroud, and you havent even been in there.
Dont let the noobs making the LFMs spoil the game for you or panic you. Different people learn at different speeds, and for some players, "move to the middle, now move out of the middle" takes dozens of completions to grasp. You have no idea how many players with red Dragonscale will STILL fight Suulo from the side and STILL die to his cleaves. You dont have to be one of them, you know.

Give it a week. Sheesh.

[Nexx]

Casual mode for raids? Just so I can get a feel for the mechanics and basic layout so I can claim some familiarity. Most of the LFMs I -do- see that might allow melees say "know the raid".

You don't seriously think I can make my own LFM for Shroud never having done it before.... For real?

I am not a complainer, and I will not allow myself to be drawn into a negative response. Suffice it to say that I am sure after my 50th Shroud I will feel the same way you do. Or, after I obtain many of the wonderful greensteel items othwer ways or other alternatives people have rightly suggested in this thread. I'm already on it.

Just don't assume there are LFM's up for shroud welcoming melees every time you turn around. You'd be surprised.

In fact, I wonder that Turbine doesn't sponsor "familiarity events" where someone will purposely lead the Shroud for newbess to raiding, etc.



Negative response? Hardly, lol. There wasn't any intent for being negative. Nor did I ever call you a complainer. If it were a negative response, you've already been drawn into it and have responded back?

Anyway....


Have you ever tried sending a tell to the raid leader and asking them if they wouldn't mind taking a 1st timer? It doesn't hurt to ask, I've done it a bunch of times when I didn't know a certain raid. Some people are ok with taking first timers as long as you can listen and follow instructions given. The shroud post U12 isn't as bad as people have said it was, but then again I've only run it on normal.

And the people you run into who aren't willing to take a 1st timer probably aren't they type of people you'd be wanting to group with anyway.

If you haven't tried sending a tell to the raid leader, you should give that a thought...just sayin.

[moops]

Actually now is the best time to learn the raid, since people are actually talking about the changes to the group--and they explain part 4 in detail.

Do you by chance play at an off time?
On Sarlona I've been pugging Shroud 2 or 3 times on the nights I play, and none of those LFMs say--be experienced or have uber gear--because I won't join those as those people actually usually don't know the raid and are bad leaders :)

[Ivan_Milic]

Im on Thelanis and I gotta say there are at least 4-5 groups for Shroud each day without any specific requirements.
Just say to people before u go to part4 that green devils spawn blades when killed and will follow for a few sec,and that someone with mic should say when to go back from harry,possible 3-4 sec before blades close in.
Also that when Harry comes down he sometimes spawns blades on top of your head.

[Qhualor]

You can get comparably the same gear through the alchemical crafting - House Cannith.
You can get green steel ingredients from other quests afaik (devil assault for instance)
And you can freely buy them from the AH!

Other than to get your power shards you don't really have to even step foot into the Shroud actually :p

you can get shards from devils assault and tod

[MrkGrismer]

I wouldn't mind if the altars where available outside the shroud (and not just on high-level guildships). I don't see any real need to not have them easily available. It would be handy just to be able to charge cells outside of Shroud.