Why guild renown decay exists

[Barazon]

It's so simple, I can't believe I didn't see it before. People often point to the roleplaying reason of it being a measure of your guild's fame in the world, etc, but that's not the reason it was created in the first place. I'm usually the one telling people: when you wonder why Turbine did X, follow the $$$. Well that's the reason renown decay exists, to keep people spending $$$.

Once a guild reaches level 93, everything you could put on the airship can be bought with platinum. But before that, you can always get BETTER amenities by buying it with Turbine Points, and when you run out of those, buy some more! If guild renown didn't decay. many players would be happier, and the effect might be that they play longer, pay more monthly membership fees and/or spend $$$ to buy TP to spend on other thiings, but that's harder to measure than TP spent. A report that reads: "183 people bought the Gold Seal 5% Major Experience Shrine this week; at 700 TP per shrine that's 128,100 TP or up to $3658.17 spent if they bought the smallest TP packs resulting in over 700 TP" is a lot easier to point to as a reason to keep guild renown decay.

What am I doing about it? Voting with my TP and not buying any gold seal airship amenity contracts from now on; I'm going to encourage my guild to do the same, and encourage other guilds to do it also. If you don't like it, don't do it. Most of the people unhappy with renown decay are the friendly guilds who aren't level 93+, the ones that, like us, are struggling to raise their guild level with over 100 accounts, so they're the ones that might agree with my dislike for renown decay, and I hope will agree with me on a boycott of spending TP on airship amenities. Even if you're a VIP and spending your monthly TP on it, go spend them on something else, like 20% xp pots instead of a shrine that's 2% better than what you could buy with platinum.

NOTE: Sorry if my price for TP packs is off, I based it off of the price I saw in the Turbine Store just before submitting this post, which was 19.99 USD for 1250 points with 350 bonus points, for a total of 1600 (the only point bundle lower than that was a total of 600 points, not enough to buy a 5% xp shrine at normal cost).

[morticianjohn]

You can't blame a company for trying to make money.

With that said I don't see anything nefarious going on with guild renown decay. The biggest reason why people don't like it, is because there is imbalance within their guild (e.g. some people who play a lot and others who don't). We like our casual friends and don't want to kick them from the guild. However, it truly does reward the most active guilds and those guilds whose members prioritize renown.

As with any system there are some downsides however, I don't think it's the intention of creating a flawed system thinking the flaws will pull in more money.

[Viisari]

Why you ask? So that not everyone will reach the maximum guild level, simple.

What would be the point of having guild levels if eventually everyone would just end up at level 100? And incidentally, most of the useful stuff is at levels 50-70, which isn't too hard to achieve for an active guild. This basically means that the higher levels are more for prestige than anything else.

[moriedhel]

If guild renown didn't exist you could have one single max level guild on your server that everyone could join to get the best buffs, since they don't need to contribute to keep it at level.
Or you could make this guild that keeps blind inviting people in the harbor, get the renown from them and then kick them out when you're high enough level because you don't need them.

Players that are active and play together should be rewarded, i don't see why somebody that logs in once a week should be able to have the best buffs. Besides you can always ask for an invite to another guild ship, if they really wanted to take your money they wouldn't let that happen either.

[Elyanna]

Why you ask? So that not everyone will reach the maximum guild level, simple.

What would be the point of having guild levels if eventually everyone would just end up at level 100? And incidentally, most of the useful stuff is at levels 50-70, which isn't too hard to achieve for an active guild. This basically means that the higher levels are more for prestige than anything else.

Funny thing is the person who posted this is in a guild that has passed level 70 and is working towards level 85, which by the math he has done for said guild, we will make it above that point and level off somewhere between 86 and 90. Will we get to 100, at the current statistics, probably not. Events like Mabar and Crystal Cove definitely slow our growth.

*puts on tinfoil hat* Hmmmm I wonder why they don't drop renown.

It sucks to work your tail off for months and then because of an event watch your guild lose a level or two. Specifically when it means you start yo-yo-ing between 74 and 75. Will this end for our guild? Yes. But as the OP says no more tp for the boat even with it meaning us having to not have the nice 5% xp shrine that was there since the day we could get it via TP. Thanks turbine for letting me save some money :)

[DragonMageT]

Why you ask? So that not everyone will reach the maximum guild level, simple.

What would be the point of having guild levels if eventually everyone would just end up at level 100? And incidentally, most of the useful stuff is at levels 50-70, which isn't too hard to achieve for an active guild. This basically means that the higher levels are more for prestige than anything else.

That's completely false.

Turbine doesn't control how your guild is made up of active / less active players.
Turbine doesn't control your guild size.
Turbine doesn't control what guild you belong to or what the focus of the guild is.

Every guild can reach 100 but it takes work, planning, and a desire to keep renown a focus for the guild.

With all that said, I still think the decay formula needs adjusted to help ease those guilds that have less active members.

But this is not some evil plot by Turbine to keep the masses down.

[gloopygloop]

That's completely false.

Turbine doesn't control how your guild is made up of active / less active players.
Turbine doesn't control your guild size.
Turbine doesn't control what guild you belong to or what the focus of the guild is.

Every guild can reach 100 but it takes work, planning, and a desire to keep renown a focus for the guild.

With all that said, I still think the decay formula needs adjusted to help ease those guilds that have less active members.

But this is not some evil plot by Turbine to keep the masses down.


Viisari didn't say that it's to make sure that not every guild CAN reach guild level 100, but so that not every guild WILL reach guild level 100.

If renown decay didn't exist, then EVERY guild would eventually reach 100 given enough time. Renown decay just makes it so that only guilds with very active members will reach 100.

Renown decay does not prevent anyone from reaching 100 if they are active enough.
Renown decay DOES prevent people from reaching 100 if they are not active enough.

[Lithic]

You are being short sighted. Sure some people are idiots and buy the 5% shrine even though their ship already has the 4% shrine. Such few purchases though are not going to be much of a blip on turbine's accounting radar.

The reason decay exists is to correct the mass invite, then mass kicking type guilds that popped up as soon as guild renown and levels were created. If you have no decay, then it is in your best interest to invite everyone you can to cap out your guild accounts/characters, and to kick them when they become inactive (say not logging in every week at minimum). This leads to thousands of new players being invited to a guild, farmed for renown, then kicked suddenly with no explanation. The next step is that lots of those newbies with hurt feelings will decide they don't like the community and move on to another game. Fast forward with that system and you get hordes of players packed into large guilds who finally reach lvl 100. Then the guild leader kicks all but their friends, and you then have a lot of longer term players with the same rage quit tendancies.

THAT is going to impact turbine's bottom line a hell of a lot more than a couple 5% exp shrines, it is also why the best amenities stop at lvl 63 or so (30pt resists and +2 stat shrines, and 3% exp shrine), which is a level that any random group of 1000 players can band together and achieve in a relatively short time.

[BOgre]

I can't see ever spending TP on amenities. I could imagine spending TP on Stormglory Typhoon, if we were ever to get there.

[DocBenway]

I can't see ever spending TP on amenities. I could imagine spending TP on Stormglory Typhoon, if we were ever to get there.

This.

The price point on ship amenities out of whack.

[Aurora1979]

I can't see ever spending TP on amenities. I could imagine spending TP on Stormglory Typhoon, if we were ever to get there.

me too. I would only ever spent plat.

I think if you have paid real money for them they should be permenant.

Imagine if you brought a tome, outfit, hairdye etc and it ran out after a month.

Hey, you, yes... you cant get into gianthold anymore... give us moar :)

[shovat]

They made this game free to play, and they did it reasonably well. you can get most everything through grinding or you can pay for it. This leave the choice of spending money instead of time in game up to the consumer. I see no issues with that.

[BOgre]

me too. I would only ever spent plat.

I think if you have paid real money for them they should be permenant.

Imagine if you brought a tome, outfit, hairdye etc and it ran out after a month.

Hey, you, yes... you cant get into gianthold anymore... give us moar :)

I'd be even more upset if I'd spent tp on an amenity today, and came back tomorrow to find it replaced with something else.

With plat amenities, and limited hookpoints, I don't have any problem with a guildie replacing a buff with something else he may need. They're cheap and easily swapped in and out. But with TP amenities, well, I could see fistfights breaking out. No thanks to that drama.

[Qaliya]

Lithic, well said. Cynicism has its place, but this is completely overboard.

[Chai]

1. To reward and encourage active play. The longer people are logged in, the more tempted they are to do more, create alts, and spend money in the store.

2. To discourage "herding noobs" as the best leveling technique. Without renown decay in place, I could invite 999 korthos and harbor newbies to max out my guild, and micromanage their attendance to level up quickly, then boot them all.

3. If level 100 guilds are commonplace, whats the point? Requiring an amount of maintenance means not everyone will get there, and even if they do, staying there is an issue. It keeps people logged in longer which impacts number 1.

[madmaxhunter]

You are being short sighted. Sure some people are idiots and buy the 5% shrine even though their ship already has the 4% shrine. Such few purchases though are not going to be much of a blip on turbine's accounting radar.

The reason decay exists is to correct the mass invite, then mass kicking type guilds that popped up as soon as guild renown and levels were created. If you have no decay, then it is in your best interest to invite everyone you can to cap out your guild accounts/characters, and to kick them when they become inactive (say not logging in every week at minimum). This leads to thousands of new players being invited to a guild, farmed for renown, then kicked suddenly with no explanation. The next step is that lots of those newbies with hurt feelings will decide they don't like the community and move on to another game. Fast forward with that system and you get hordes of players packed into large guilds who finally reach lvl 100. Then the guild leader kicks all but their friends, and you then have a lot of longer term players with the same rage quit tendancies.

THAT is going to impact turbine's bottom line a hell of a lot more than a couple 5% exp shrines, it is also why the best amenities stop at lvl 63 or so (30pt resists and +2 stat shrines, and 3% exp shrine), which is a level that any random group of 1000 players can band together and achieve in a relatively short time.

Unfortunately it has had the opposite effect. Instead of new players getting spam invited to a guild then booted, they're never invited at all. Most of the older guildies are at least level 50. The older guilds that can benefit new players. The older guilds that have the vets in them.

[llyrnionfor]

The reason decay exists is to correct the mass invite, then mass kicking type guilds that popped up as soon as guild renown and levels were created.


I have a suggestion - when a toon leaves a guild (whether by his own choice or by being kicked out), all his renown goes with him. Not 10%, not 25%, not (x*y / Sqrt(495.230400 - Mod(8/5.4)))%. The full 100%.

It his renown, he earned it. If he leaves, he takes it.

[gloopygloop]

I have a suggestion - when a toon leaves a guild (whether by his own choice or by being kicked out), all his renown goes with him. Not 10%, not 25%, not (x*y / Sqrt(495.230400 - Mod(8/5.4)))%. The full 100%.

It his renown, he earned it. If he leaves, he takes it.

Right now, if a player leaves a guild and takes his 10% away, he can often end up taking more than he ever contributed.

If that character(s) contributed 320 renown per day and cost the guild 300 renown per day for 100 days, then taking away 10% will end up costing the guild 3200 renown. That lost more than erases the 2000 net renown that the person contributed to the guild over the course of their membership.

As guilds approach their renown plateau and remain there for a long time, that 10% loss can end up being a staggering amount of net renown that is taken from the guild.

[madmaxhunter]

Right now, if a player leaves a guild and takes his 10% away, he can often end up taking more than he ever contributed.

If that character(s) contributed 320 renown per day and cost the guild 300 renown per day for 100 days, then taking away 10% will end up costing the guild 3200 renown. That lost more than erases the 2000 net renown that the person contributed to the guild over the course of their membership.

As guilds approach their renown plateau and remain there for a long time, that 10% loss can end up being a staggering amount of net renown that is taken from the guild.

QFT

I had a hard time explaining that one to a guildie.

[Memnir]

Simple.

Guild decay exists because it's just another treadmill. Turbine likes treadmills, so they keep adding more to the game in the hopes we don't realize the scenery never really changes.

[danotmano1998]

<snip>

What am I doing about it? Voting with my TP and not buying any gold seal airship amenity contracts from now on; I'm going to encourage my guild to do the same, and encourage other guilds to do it also. If you don't like it, don't do it.

There ya go! Ship buffs are a great convenence, nothing more. I wouldn't spend any cash on this either, and never have. Sounds like you found the route that lets your actions do the talking for you, congrats.

[GrinDrake]

I think there could be an aid to decay.

cackles

If I may direct your attention to the tastefully decorated panel wagon over here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4179297&postcount=1).

[llyrnionfor]

Right now, if a player leaves a guild and takes his 10% away, he can often end up taking more than he ever contributed.

If that character(s) contributed 320 renown per day and cost the guild 300 renown per day for 100 days, then taking away 10% will end up costing the guild 3200 renown. That lost more than erases the 2000 net renown that the person contributed to the guild over the course of their membership.


Obviously, what I was suggesting was a mechanism to replace guild renown decay.

Ergo,
1) If there is no guild renown decay, each player costs the guild nothing.
2) If each player takes his contribution when he leaves, he can't be farmed for guild renown.

[moriedhel]

Obviously, what I was suggesting was a mechanism to replace guild renown decay.

Ergo,
1) If there is no guild renown decay, each player costs the guild nothing.
2) If each player takes his contribution when he leaves, he can't be farmed for guild renown.

He can if he becomes inactive but doesn't quit the guild aka f2p khortos newbs that are just trying the game out.

[llyrnionfor]

He can if he becomes inactive but doesn't quit the guild aka f2p khortos newbs that are just trying the game out.

If said newb was just trying the game out and left, I believe he probably won't give a rat's derriere whether or not he was farmed, and his contribution to the guild renown probably wasn't very meaningful.

[countfitz]

We need to be boycotting things in this game that are broken, not things that are working as intended.

Guilds and Airships are extras. They work. We don't need them. And they're fun. If someone wants to support this game, which for many of us is free, then by all means let them.

Now if you wanted to say, boycott the new "challenges" pack because of the bugs that resulted in exploits by not buying it, then yeah, I'd support it.

But you are correct, there is a bottom line here, and that bottom line is money. This video game is probably the cheapest game for the hours spend of any game in the world right now, since it can be completely f2p and can provide unlimited play... and is pretty much the best MMO out there to boot, even being 6ish years old. There are some better console games... but still.

So lets get back to the important stuff here:

Give us back our normal shroud runs!

[chance2000]

On Lam made a live Dev event and they leveled my guild to 100 with just 2 active accounts my decay is nearing the 2 mil mark. They gave me so much renown the guild will not loose level before the next server wipe. Yes they need to do something about the guild decay formula. They should not get rid of it is my thought just scale it back a bit. On the regular servers I run a guild of like 25 active players and 25+10= 35 * 317.773400 at level 61 is not bad 11,122 a day now next level it goes to 11,678 a day at 75 try over 25,839 a day 85 its like over 51,000 a day and 100 it would be 118125 a day which is a bit much.

[mournbladereigns]

This.

The price point on ship amenities out of whack.

Yeah, only thing we have spent much (very small guild of very active players) is on Astral Diamonds.

Gold Seal amenities are a poor use of TP. Better of spending that on Renown pots:)

[Gremmlynn]

IMO, the current system is messed up in that it makes players who don't play a lot a handicap to those who do.

It would seem to me to have been better to not have the renown decay and have players take 100% upon leaving. With that remove the silly level 100 cap and replace it with an uncapped, escalating renown formula for those who see it as some sort of competition.

In my experience, the decay tends to cause unneeded stress and even strife among guild members when things start to level out. It seems like guilds have to decide whether it is better to continue progressing or maintaining members who can't or simply don't feel the desire to play more or in a manner more productive of gaining renown. I don't see how this could be considered a good thing for maintaining players.

[Callavan]

Huh. I always figured it was to make guilds that go inactive fall to the bottom of the list.

[Thrombur_Stormforger]

Give us back our normal shroud runs!

said it before, and ill say it again...they HAVE given us back our normal shroud runs....sorry...that was off topic...back to reading....

[~Quilny]

If guild renown didn't exist you could have one single max level guild on your server that everyone could join to get the best buffs, since they don't need to contribute to keep it at level.
Or you could make this guild that keeps blind inviting people in the harbor, get the renown from them and then kick them out when you're high enough level because you don't need them.

Players that are active and play together should be rewarded, i don't see why somebody that logs in once a week should be able to have the best buffs. Besides you can always ask for an invite to another guild ship, if they really wanted to take your money they wouldn't let that happen either.
Agreed 100% very well said this post has been quilny Approved