Wizard AM/PM Balance - Please Fix It

[Qaliya]

To summarize: there is no balance between AMs and PMs for wizards.

Since I'm a masochist, I decided to play what I thought would be cool, rather than what "everyone else is doing". And now I know why I never see any other wizards out there playing anything but pale masters: PMs are ridiculously strong; AMs are not, and furthermore, have to contend with seriously messed up spells.

I have the full line of evocation SLAs, along with two conjuration SLAs. Web works great, but the two top level evocation spells are a mess.

Getting cyclonic blast cost me an ungodly number of feats, enhancements and spell points. Way more than a PM pays for anything!

And for it I get a spell that doesn't hit moving targets, that destroys friendly firewalls, that doesn't hit through globes of invulnerability even though it's a fifth level spell, and randomly does 1/10 to 1/4 of the damage it's supposed to for no reason.

Fire shield is also messed up. It doesn't do the amount of damage it's supposed to, and duration doesn't scale beyond level 15. Enhancements and most metas don't affect it. Why? And it wasn't very useful to begin with.

The archmage inherent SLAs cannot have metas put on them so they are quickly becoming useless -- everything evades them.

Web works well but nothing beyond it in the conjuration line is even worth considering.

When there are two prestige classes and 95% of people use one of them, that's a good sign the other needs work. I want to try to stick with AM but it's increasingly looking like a respec is in my future.

At the very least, please fix our messed up spells!!

[mute_mayhem]

I wasn't aware that you need to take all the SLA's to be an archmage...

My WF archmage has comparable DC's to a PM (43 necro) and a lot more spell points, oh and 3 spell point 41 DC webs...I fail to see how the balance is skewed towards PM.

[Urjak]

Playing a conjuration archmage ... works quite well most of the time ... being able to spamn 44 dc webs for 3 sp while having suboptimal gear is a nice perk ... but I agree archmages could need a small buff

My suggestion: Make the yugo pots apply only a -25% fort reduction instead of 50% ... then it would be save to use them in any situation (considering you play a wf, non-wf archmages are simply not worth of consideration anyhow; like pale master can all of the time now) ... and maybe give archmages a +1 dc to the 2 schools the archmage is focused on at the 5th tier ... else dc wise there is not much gain from archmage and seriously, its hard to play this game only using one spellschool exclusively

[Kmnh]

Archmages are a LOT more powerful than PMs. Evocation is a bad line, but enchantment, necromancy and conjuration are all seriously powerful.

Sure, building an archmage right requires more planning, more creative spell use and more gear, but I figure that is a good thing.

[Qaliya]

I wasn't aware that you need to take all the SLA's to be an archmage...

Obviously you don't. But my complaint is about those SLAs, which are a big part of the prestige class and most of which currently are not worth what they cost.

If most of the small number of people who go AM aren't taking the SLAs, that's really a big part of the point. Most of the PRE is ignored, only tiny portions are used in special cases.

I like being an evoker. I just want my spells to WAI.

[Selchin]

Obviously you don't. But my complaint is about those SLAs, which are a big part of the prestige class and most of which currently are not worth what they cost.

If most of the small number of people who go AM aren't taking the SLAs, that's really a big part of the point. Most of the PRE is ignored, only tiny portions are used in special cases.

I like being an evoker. I just want my spells to WAI.

Just to be fair, most of the PM enhancements (various skeleton summons) are just as useless and also get ignored.

[somenewnoob]

Which of the SLA's in each school are worth taking? Also is arcane bolt/blast worth it?

I've got a lowbie wf wiz/rogue and was planning on making him an evocation/enchantment AM.

[Eladiun]

Since I'm a masochist, I decided to play what I thought would be cool, rather than what "everyone else is doing". And now I know why I never see any other wizards out there playing anything but pale masters: PMs are ridiculously strong; AMs are not, and furthermore, have to contend with seriously messed up spells.

I find this to be completely false. My Con/Nec Archmage does just fine.

[Qaliya]

Just to be fair, most of the PM enhancements (various skeleton summons) are just as useless and also get ignored.

But the core ones are extremely powerful.

My cheapened Cyclonic Blast is at the same level as Shroud of the Lich. Is there really any comparison? And I'm pretty sure the Shroud has fewer requirements.


I find this to be completely false. My Con/Nec Archmage does just fine.

Are you using any actual SLAs, which are the core of the PRE, or just taking it for a couple of +DCs and spell points?

It's the SLAs I am mostly complaining about here. Other than web and hypnotize, who actually uses them? And they are the bulk of the prestige class.

The fact that 95% of wizards use necromancy to kill things because so little else is effective is also a big beef.

[Eladiun]

Which of the SLA's in each school are worth taking? Also is arcane bolt/blast worth it?

I've got a lowbie wf wiz/rogue and was planning on making him an evocation/enchantment AM.

Conjuration - 3pt Webs are the best CC end game
Enchantment - 1pt Hypno is a -5 Debuff for all your Mass Holds

[quiescent]

I'd like to see more PrEs given to classes with only one before screwing around with one that already exists. After that, finish the exiting PrEs. You might not think AM is a viable choice, but at least it's a choice. Tell that to the clerics and FvS out there. Or to the bards with only 2 levels of PrE.

[danotmano1998]

IMO, the SLA's on the sorcerer is where it's at.

Im building an Archmage myself and doing just fine without taking a single SLA.
So, in a way, I guess that reinforces your point.

[Qaliya]

I'd like to see more PrEs given to classes with only one before screwing around with one that already exists.

So would I. But that takes a significant amount of developer resources.

This would not. Fixing these issues would not delay the release of any other prestige classes in any meaningful way.

It isn't too much to ask for the so-called "pinnacle" spell of a prestige class to actually work properly.

[quiescent]

So would I. But that takes a significant amount of developer resources.

This would not. Fixing these issues would not delay the release of any other prestige classes in any meaningful way.

It isn't too much to ask for the so-called "pinnacle" spell of a prestige class to actually work properly.

How do you know that? You can't be sure unless you're one of the developers. You can't be blind to the fact that the age of this game's code makes changing one thing a tremendous **** shoot in terms of what else it might mess up.

It's easy for you or me or anyone to say "Just change X and everything will be fixed!" when in reality, changing X could have unintended consequences for G, J, L, R, Y and Z.

Quick example: what exactly did they change to make all the armor lose their colors? Were they mucking about in the armor code, or was it something totally unrelated? It's never as simple as "Fix this!"

[teh_meh]

Devs have enough legitimate stuff to fix without being distracted by poorly informed "please fix this" threads.

If you want to specialize in evocation casting, TR into a sorc. You'll be much happier with your SP pool and elemental punch.

WF AM with necro/ench is king in epics and in terms of survivability.

[Mrmorphling]

Enchantment - 1pt Hypno is a -5 Debuff for all your Mass Holds

Make it -3 for 6secs and a non heightened non quickened hypno just costs 10.

I do agree with OP that, atm, PM are slightly more powerfull all around than AM but not daunting so (basically same DC in necro and ench and more HP, more 'passive DR' and free yugo pot usage vs super cheap webs and slightly more mana)

[Nines9]

I've heard/seen the same thing you have. My wiz was a am necro/conj, same necro dc as a comparable pm, super cheap high dc webs are awesome, and reconstruct > neg energy burst. Trying out pm now, the only real advantages I see are constant healing, being able to drink yugo pots without having to worry about fort, the hp dmg sla's, having scary ghost faces come out of my shoulders, and being immune to being danced.

I like pm, I like am, don't really see either as overpowered, and when they bring back blanket epic death block to mobs in an update or two, you'll see a lot of those pm move to am or tr to sorc, so your problem will be solved.

[Vazok1]

Archmages are a LOT more powerful than PMs. Evocation is a bad line, but enchantment, necromancy and conjuration are all seriously powerful.

Sure, building an archmage right requires more planning, more creative spell use and more gear, but I figure that is a good thing.

I agree with km here. Archmages require more gear and player experience but in the end they are a lot more powerful.

[Qaliya]

How do you know that?

Over thirty years of programming experience.


You can't be blind to the fact that the age of this game's code makes changing one thing a tremendous **** shoot in terms of what else it might mess up.

It's ALREADY messed up.

Fixing Cyclonic Blast so it actually works properly is the minimum I am requesting, and it is an entirely reasonable request.


Devs have enough legitimate stuff to fix without being distracted by poorly informed "please fix this" threads.

Have you tried actually using the evocation SLAs or spells like Cyclonic Blast? Do it and then come back here and we'll decide who is "poorly informed".

10% of the AM PRE having an application doesn't change the fact that 90% of it is busted. For the zillionth time, when the ability you get at the fifth level of a PRE is busted, it's not too much to ask it to be fixed.

Nearly all of the contrary -- and in your case, obnoxious -- replies, boil down to "well that option sucks so don't use it, use an option that doesn't suck". Wow, so helpful.

Is there even one SLA above second or third level that AMs actually use?

[Doxmaster]

I just want them to look into a few thigns have have poor cost effectivity.

[quiescent]

Over thirty years of programming experience.

It's ALREADY messed up.

Fixing Cyclonic Blast so it actually works properly is the minimum I am requesting, and it is an entirely reasonable request.


Have you tried actually using the evocation SLAs or spells like Cyclonic Blast? Do it and then come back here and we'll decide who is "poorly informed".

10% of the AM PRE having an application doesn't change the fact that 90% of it is busted. For the zillionth time, when the ability you get at the fifth level of a PRE is busted, it's not too much to ask it to be fixed.

Nearly all of the contrary -- and in your case, obnoxious -- replies, boil down to "well that option sucks so don't use it, use an option that doesn't suck". Wow, so helpful.

Is there even one SLA above second or third level that AMs actually use?

Wow you've been programming in DDO for 30 years? I'm impressed.

[Chai]

It's ALREADY messed up.

Fixing Cyclonic Blast so it actually works properly is the minimum I am requesting, and it is an entirely reasonable request.

How about actually letting us pick the SLA -or- having useful SLAs that players use alot. The idea behind SLAs is they take away from max spell points but cost very little, so in order to benefit by them we need to actually use them alot to justify losing hundreds of mana.


Have you tried actually using the evocation SLAs or spells like Cyclonic Blast? Do it and then come back here and we'll decide who is "poorly informed".

Yes, and evocation sucks as a AM. They wont be able to balance it in this game, because if you want to toss damage spells around, sorcs are just better. They not only get SLAs themselves, but their chosen element is amped up plus their capstone amps up all their damage. Evocation AM is the deepwood sniper PRE of wizards, heh.


10% of the AM PRE having an application doesn't change the fact that 90% of it is busted. For the zillionth time, when the ability you get at the fifth level of a PRE is busted, it's not too much to ask it to be fixed.

AM is great for DC based warforged wizards. Its alot more than 10%. The SLAs are questionable, but high DCs are awesome.


Is there even one SLA above second or third level that AMs actually use?

Thats my whole gripe with AM. The SLAs are gained by trading large amounts of mana, then they are situational at best. They intentionally left all the best spells in each school off the SLA list.

[Darkrok]

For an Evo/Con don't bother going beyond Chain Missiles. You have way more sp's that way, can actually make Conjuration your main (or Enchantment - either one works) and it's highly effective.

As far as SLA's used on a typical AM here's my opinion on them:

General: Bolt/Blast are decent added damage on an Con/Evo or Ench/Evo. I wouldn't go there if you're going beyond the 3 evo sla's/2 con-ench sla's though.

Abjuration: Totally not worth it

Conjuration: Prior to meta's being assignable on a pure-spell basis I could see the argument for going all the way to cloudkill just to make it cheap to cast w/o turning off meta's. Now there's no reason to go beyond Web (which is one of the best there is)

Enchantment: One of the most important AM lines for DC purposes but very little reason to go beyond Otto's. Hold Monster at 15sp's is nice but just too costly when you'll often get more bang for your buck out of a mass hold for 50/60 quickened.

Evocation: Can be very nice for sustained nuking but basically no reason to go beyond chain missiles. Gust of wind is by far one of my favorite spells when the cost is 3sp's. Control the battlefield by blowing away the enemies' persistent spells.

Illusion: I see little reason to do an AM in this line but this is an outstanding line of SLA's with the only instakill in the list (PK) being well worth the extra points after getting the outstanding Displacement. 3sp Blur is ok, but is more a once a shrine thing. 1sp invis though...for people that play using invisibility this is an AMAZING SLA. It basically makes invis free without toting stacks of scrolls.

Necromancy: One of the most important AM lines for DC purposes. Chill Touch, Control Undead, and Halt Undead can all be useful in quests with undead for CC. The 10sp enervation though is HUGE, especially with the changes to necrotic ray's sp costs. Hit an enemy with a 10sp enervation, then a 10sp (set to no meta's) for another neg level and decent damage. After that you can decide whether the mob's worth a FoD or not but with several levels drained and a chunk of health gone you may not need to bother.

Transmutation: An odd little line that if you're going to take you're going to max out. Its top SLA, Flesh to Stone, is basically a Hold Monster that works on far more enemies. Unfortunately Transmutation gives you little in the way of other CC options. You're basically getting the bonuses to your DC for 2 spells - Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate. That said I could see an interesting synergy there maxing out Transmutation and Evoker SLA's (evoker up through Chain Missiles would be the max there) and then maxing out the force line of spells. Nuking with disintegrate when needed, meteor swarm, and then using chain missiles on smaller stuff while stoning as many enemies as possible could be interesting. As far as the other SLA's go, haste is a nice little bonus as is jump and knock.

[Qaliya]

How about actually letting us pick the SLA -or- having useful SLAs that players use alot. The idea behind SLAs is they take away from max spell points but cost very little, so in order to benefit by them we need to actually use them alot to justify losing hundreds of mana.

I think this is why I'm kinda grumpy about this.

I can understand that they didn't want to give cheap access to the very best spells. But some of the choices are utterly ridiculous, and others are flat out broken.

I can't imagine there's anyone considering evocation who wouldn't rather have Wall of Fire or Ice Storm as the level 4 SLA, but instead they chose Fire Shield. Fine, but given that this gives the spell particular importance, can't they make the spell work properly?

Same with Cyclonic Blast. It's far from a crowd favorite, but why doesn't it work properly? How hard can it be to debug a single spell?

Apparently the developers did have the time and motivation to nerf several of the Evocation SLAs, but not to fix them. I just don't get that.

ETA: Darkrok, some good information there, thanks. I had briefly considered going Conj/Necro but with so many wizards necroing everything I thought I'd try something different. Might still change my mind on that and appreciate the input. Since I'm force-specced I do use Disintegrate, but it gets pretty expensive.

[smallstones]

The fact that 95% of wizards use necromancy to kill things because so little else is effective is also a big beef.

Actually this says more about a game issue than class/PrE thing...


It is far more effective to Kill something with wail/fod for 50sp, than it is to use other spells multiple times for more SP... (Ever try and kill a Frost Giant in RR before Deathblock/Hps were removed?) In the high speed game we have, it just isn't efficient to try and kill in less than 1 shot...

[Qaliya]

And it's made even worse when evoke spells don't work properly.

I'm using Cyc Blast and some quarter of the time it does 10% of its base damage. For no reason I can ascertain.

And then there are the times the mob evades all the damage but still falls down.

[Such755]

What about Hunter of the Dead vs Defender of Siberys\Knight of the chalice?
Some PrE will be better than others, there's no perfect balance.
I see a lot of warforged arch mages, and they are awesome.
I do agree, however, that the evocation SLA are ****, and they need some serious changes.

[jortann]

AM Wizards rock. If yours doesn't, you are doing it wrong. Nothing needs changing.

Nothing to see here people... move along

[Darkrok]

What about Hunter of the Dead vs Defender of Siberys\Knight of the chalice?
Some PrE will be better than others, there's no perfect balance.
I see a lot of warforged arch mages, and they are awesome.
I do agree, however, that the evocation SLA are ****, and they need some serious changes.

Honestly all the evocation SLA's really need are to go back the way they were at release (shorter cooldown). My first life on my main arcane was 18/2 rog Warforged Evoker/Conj. He didn't set the world on fire but he was effective at putting out sustained damage against a wide variety of enemies and doing some spell pen independent CC. I'd say a WF'd Necro/Evoker is every bit the damage dealer (damage meaning instakilling too) of a Pale Master. The evoker sla's will likely do more damage and be more widely usable than the PM SLA's and they'll both do very well on the Necro end of things. In fact, the Enervation SLA probably puts AM's ahead of PM's on single-target instakilling.

I fully intended for all 3 of my wizard lives to be WF'd with either main or second school of evoker. Then they changed the cooldowns and it just wasn't as fun when I couldn't rotate just the SLA's anymore.

[Qaliya]

AM Wizards rock. If yours doesn't, you are doing it wrong.

Wow, what a brilliant analysis! Thank you so much for your insightful contribution here.

I want to be an evocation archmage. The two top SLAs, which are supposed to be the best abilities in the line, are marginally useful even as written, and not working properly. Pray tell how I'm supposed to "do it right" when the spells are busted?

Let me guess.. your "doing it right" suggestion for being an evoker wizard is not to be an evoker wizard?

[Aurora1979]

I think AM and all their function should go back to pre u9.

I understand they wanted to add more diversity but I cant see why both what we had then, for Am's and what we have now, for PM's cant both exist at the same time.

[Viisari]

PMs are ridiculously strong; AMs are not

Sure most of the SLA's are bad but this is still wrong.
Make it -3 for 6secs and a non heightened non quickened hypno just costs 10.

Come here Lemorf, I'm gonna smack you for saying "non-quickened" when speaking about wizards :p

Besides, hypno and dance SLA's *are* stupidly good. I prefer conjuration myself these days though, with necro as main spec.

[kanbeki]

Yeah.. I've swapped between AM and PM a number of times on my caster, I always end up going back to AM. PM is not as strong as most people would have you think, without a ton of damage mitigation it is very hard to keep yourself up with the spells you've been provided, I can play my Archmage in a much more reckless fashion without much drawback, I get crit every now and then from Yugo pots but I've died so much quicker as a PM, but I don't have bramblecasters/demons consort/shield mastery/etc it takes a lot more IMHO to gear a PM vs an archmage and to not just sit around and cast wail every time its off timer. AM has a higher necro dc leveling, Pm doesn't even get a boost until you have tier3 of the pre and the most powerful form, I'm not feeling it.

[Qaliya]

Yeah.. I've swapped between AM and PM a number of times on my caster, I always end up going back to AM.

Okay, please educate me. What do you do with it?

Obviously evocation focus is a waste of time and effort. I had assumed that going necro I'd be better off as a PM, especially since I already have an epic docent of shadows from Mabar. Without PM and without any good SLAs, I don't know what I would do aside from a dozen or two death spells before I run out of mana. Am I missing something?

Is there any way to make a competent AM without going necro? I really don't like just doing the same thing everyone else is.

I'm willing to LR if necessary.

PS I still wish they'd fix Cyc Blast.

[teh_meh]

Okay, please educate me. What do you do with it?

Obviously evocation focus is a waste of time and effort. I had assumed that going necro I'd be better off as a PM, especially since I already have an epic docent of shadows from Mabar. Without PM and without any good SLAs, I don't know what I would do aside from a dozen or two death spells before I run out of mana. Am I missing something?

I'm willing to LR if necessary.

I nuke as a wizard only as a desperation play...a last resort if you will. Wails/Finger, CC, dots and ticking AoE (WoF, Ice Storm)...stick to that and you'll avoid blowing your SP bar to **** in a hurry.

If you want to spam rays, you really need to switch to sorc.

PM drove me nuts because after every shrine, you had to click into form (-100 SP) and then click aura 1, then click aura 2. Those 3 extra clicks after every single shrine/quest start-up...in addition to all of the usual buffing...told me PM was not for me.

PM does, however, get major points for style of play. The Pre design is pretty cool. Props to the devs on that one.

[Vanquishedfo]

after playing with several variationgs on AM with much personal costs in feat respeccing to accomodate trying them I had for a while settled on an abjuration primary with an evoc secondary. It made me have good DPS while letting me throw out some of the most asked for buffs so cheaply It became the only time in DDO history I buffed players without secretly feeling like they where leaching my power from me.

However eventually as I closed on 20 I felt softer, squishier, because I was no vile talking toaster abomination. Finally at 20 I went through several LR+0s trying to fine toon my character concept enough to do everything I needed in him to keep him fun and interesting. Last time as I was on the reincarnate boat working through the re leveling I kept putting off the spell focus feats and grab the other essentials first as I struggled to decide what I should finally focus on for AM.

I then came to a sad conclusion. AM for a non toaster just wasnt really that viable anymore. In PnP AM might be the most universal prestige class taken by all wizards around lvl 12 and up to 17 taking really nothing from thier wizardry and adding ALOT of power that tends to put them far above non casters and even non AMs. There is a reason it was practically built around the concept for elminster a super man among even the best NPCs of the realms.

In my PnP groups most wizards where only wiz till around lvl 7 when they could start taking something like war wizard or arcane duelist, then at 12 swap to AM. then for 18-20 usually go to whichever of the earlier two they didnt already have a few lvls in. by 20 such wizards where worthy rivals to the legacy of raistlin and elminster in being able to challenge beings with dvine ranks.

So I went PM and wraith. I know not exactly the ideal PM choice but I am a splash rogue and felt it fitting. Now with the power of self healing he is as hard to put down as my clonk. Maybe i turned to the darkness but in it I found the light of hope to keep being a wizard.

So that says to me yes AM needs ALOT of fine tuning. the How and where is up for debate. not the yes or no.

[kanbeki]

Okay, please educate me. What do you do with it?

Obviously evocation focus is a waste of time and effort. I had assumed that going necro I'd be better off as a PM, especially since I already have an epic docent of shadows from Mabar. Without PM and without any good SLAs, I don't know what I would do aside from a dozen or two death spells before I run out of mana. Am I missing something?

Is there any way to make a competent AM without going necro? I really don't like just doing the same thing everyone else is.

I'm willing to LR if necessary.

PS I still wish they'd fix Cyc Blast.

Well necromancy is the dominant school end game right now, my archmage is set up for archmage v with dual necro/single conj focus, Pretty much I spam web wait for things to get stuck cast crushing despair, circle of death, then wail. If you wanted to try something different you could go enchant/conj and be the master of crowd control.

Having boon to undeath is nice but you really need more damage mitigation to make PM worthwhile IMO, in PM form my wiz has 677 hp, NEB hits for about 200? I couldn't begin to keep myself alive in high damage situations or lag moments, I have far less Hp in archmage form (about 552) but i have a few hundred more sp and the web SLA is invaluable. Much as many other posters in this thread I would highly suggest necro/conj AM. Plus you get grease!

[Qaliya]

So the necro is just for the DCs? None of the SLAs look like they're worth the SP.

I already have the conjuration secondary but I'm guessing I'd have to do a few feat swaps to get to Necro primary if I go that route. Not sure it's worth what the plat cost would be compared to LRing.

Aside from the cheap webs, I'm honestly having a hard time seeing what benefit a necro AM gets over a PM. Is it just the spell points?

[kanbeki]

So the necro is just for the DCs? None of the SLAs look like they're worth the SP.

I already have the conjuration secondary but I'm guessing I'd have to do a few feat swaps to get to Necro primary if I go that route. Not sure it's worth what the plat cost would be compared to LRing.

Aside from the cheap webs, I'm honestly having a hard time seeing what benefit a necro AM gets over a PM. Is it just the spell points?

yes necro strictly for DCs I didn't take any necro SLAs at all, enervation is nice but I use energy drain 90% of the time anyway

Oh and yes its the spell points, PM needs to expend at least 100 sp just to get a DC equal to an archmage

[Darkrok]

Okay, please educate me. What do you do with it?

Obviously evocation focus is a waste of time and effort. I had assumed that going necro I'd be better off as a PM, especially since I already have an epic docent of shadows from Mabar. Without PM and without any good SLAs, I don't know what I would do aside from a dozen or two death spells before I run out of mana. Am I missing something?

Is there any way to make a competent AM without going necro? I really don't like just doing the same thing everyone else is.

I'm willing to LR if necessary.

PS I still wish they'd fix Cyc Blast.

First, just to get this out of the way, I would not go AM on a non-WF'd unless you really know what you're doing and aren't really building for solo. The PM self-healing on a fleshy trumps the AM goodies as far as self-sufficiency goes.

In your case that's not an issue - you're a WF'd. I honestly depends on what you want to do in-game. There are pluses and minuses to all of the choices there. My Pre-U9 Evoker/Conjurer wizrog was well built, repaired very well, was great at handing out buffs, no-fail heal scrolled for the max a wizard could get, had evasion and a great reflex save, could do quality CC regardless of enemy SR with 3sp heightened webs. It worked for what I wanted to do. Figure out what you want to do with the toon first and the build will come from that.

[teh_meh]

Aside from the cheap webs, I'm honestly having a hard time seeing what benefit a necro AM gets over a PM. Is it just the spell points?

AM has 1 higher DC in their primary school at end game (choose necro). PM is equal or gains the DC advantage after that, for subsequent schools.

AM WF can reconstruct which is the single most important thing at end-game. PM is dependent on auras which only last a few minutes, even with extend on. It's a pain and they run out at the worst times. If the devs ever introduce a 'Greater Death Aura' then PMs would utterly dominate.

[countfitz]

Seriously? We're arguing about Wizard balance? Wizards, who are worth easily two melee classes in any group/raid, especially after U11 and U12?

But on the constructive side...

As a cleric/fvs only player, I'd rather run with a AM because I hate wasting SP on PMs, and by the time I remember that the PM is a PM in a group, we drop group and I don't see ever again...

So, point is, AMs can be healed by others :)

[Funny_looking_mole]

As a PM with quite a bit (but not all) of the tasty PM items, I would say PM wins in the easy content, where either one can just breeze through it half asleep, but in the most difficult content I solo (Epics/Raids) I would much rather be a Necro/conj AM. In pugs I prefer to be a PM (though that is mostly because I don't trust most of them), but wish I could be healed by others in guild groups. Of course, as a non-WF this life, it isn't worth it to change to AM, but on my next TR I plan to go with a WF AM.

Also: PM was almost universally looked down on before they removed the Deathward from epic mobs, all it will take is for Necromancy to no longer be the flavor of the month and suddenly PM looks a lot worse. Of course the basis of the OP's post is not with AM/PM but is more with Necromancy vs. Evocation.

[Qaliya]

Figure out what you want to do with the toon first and the build will come from that.

My two main priorities are self-sufficiency and being useful to a group without being a point-and-click necro. I just don't want to do that because there are too many wizards who do, most of them will be better than I am due to past lives and gear, and I want to complement them rather than compete with them.


AM has 1 higher DC in their primary school at end game (choose necro). PM is equal or gains the DC advantage after that, for subsequent schools.

Is that really it? +1 DC? :)

Yes I am WF which I did to give me the flexibility to make this decision.

Another issue I'm having is being tempted by the Mabar docent, when I can't find any docent that even seems appealing for play as an AM.

Someone mentioned a conj/ench AM build. I like the idea of this, could someone make some suggestions for feats/enhancements/etc... for a build? And what SLAs you'd take for this on the enchantment side?

Thanks, and glad to be able to turn this rant into a more constructive thread. :)

[Postumus]

Great exchanges in this thread. Wish I could +1 you all.

[sephiroth1084]

AM definitely needs some love.

Some off the cuff suggestions:


Remove some the AP prerequisites for the PrE to make picking up all the extras a little more affordable.
Either replace the second tier of school DCs with a single enhancement that gives +1 to both schools, or add that to tier 5, giving a total of +3 to one school and +2 to another, or +3 to both.
Add some more spells that are A) useful and B) have DCs that matter to the weaker AM choice schools.
Change some of the SLA selections to be more useful (Evocation could stand to get something better than Cyclonic Blast at tier V).
Reduce the cooldown significantly on the SLA buffs (like Resist Energy) and their SP costs, so that they are actually worth consideration.
Remove the save from the special force SLAs, possibly lowering the damage on them a little bit to compensate--one of the strengths that PMs have over AMs is the fact that their "SLA" attacks aren't subject to Evasion.
Consider adding some additional benefits to the PrE, like "Arcane Reach" automatically extending the range of touch spells, and maybe a sort of Energy Admixture on an Evoker that causes 1/2 the damage from your evocations to be untyped, rather than elemental, damage (toggle on/off) that still benefits from enhancements and items that affect the spell, essentially letting them punch through resistances and immunities a bit.

Yugo pots don't need adjusting. There are a few items that have come out with stacking Fortification on them that can allow non-PMs to use Yugo pots at either no penalty (WF) or a 25% penalty, which is reasonable.



Can non-artificers take the construct body feat (or whatever it's called, that lets you get 50% healing from repair and positive energy)? Might make Archmages a little more competitive if they could pick that up.

[sephiroth1084]

AM has 1 higher DC in their primary school at end game (choose necro). PM is equal or gains the DC advantage after that, for subsequent schools.
Not accurate.

AM: +2 DCs in their primary school
PM: Lich +1 to all schools (+2 Int) and +1 to necromancy = +2 to necro (tied with AM) or 1 behind AMs on other schools.
Vampire: +2 to enchantment = AM

PMs can also drink Yugo Int pots at no Fortification penalty, which is a proxy +1 to all their schools that many AMs won't have. Not necessarily an inherent quality, but not something to be discounted, either.



AM WF can reconstruct which is the single most important thing at end-game. PM is dependent on auras which only last a few minutes, even with extend on. It's a pain and they run out at the worst times. If the devs ever introduce a 'Greater Death Aura' then PMs would utterly dominate.
PMs have:


Death Aura, which provides an incredible amount of healing and survivability.
Lesser Death Aura, which is pretty mediocre, but stacks, and therefore can be used with DA for some extra healing.
Negative Energy Burst; less healing than Reconstruct, but serves the same purpose and is almost always enough, as it is augmented by ticks of your aura.
Reactive HP gained from Boon of Undeath (Shroud of the Abbot, Epic Robe/Docent of Shadow), which heals you for 1d4+5 (I think) per hit.
Reactive temporary HP at no penalty using the Bracers of the Demon's Consort (non-PMs risk negative levels with this).

Reconstruct is very strong, and is better than Negative Energy Burst, but I really don't feel that it's stronger than NEB + DA, especially when you also factor in stuff like Boon.



If you want to see the big difference in healing ability, send a PM naked of any HP, or guard gear (no Boon, no DQ bracers, no Conc-Opp) into the Shavarath zone of The Vale and have them gather up a bunch of cats, orthons and devils, using nothing but the aura and SLAs to take the stuff down. When you get tripped, block (no shield). Then do the same with a WF.



Chances are, your WF ends up dying before everything else is dead, because they get spam-tripped while being gang-raped by fiends and can't get a Recon off. Meanwhile, the PM is probably lying on their back when the last couple of creatures die from the Death Aura that has been keeping them alive the whole time. Boon and the bracers add to this significantly.



I don't think the healing is very far apart, but there is definitely a difference, and it is not insignificant.

[Qaliya]

I'm honestly thinking that if I'm going to focus on necro, I'm far better off as PM. The only thing I'd miss is the cheap webs.

Since I am a WF I do have the option of not going into undead mode and still reconstructing.

It's just sad that to be competitive I pretty much have to go necro. It almost makes me want to say "heck with it" and TR again. I find doing the same thing everyone else is doing to be very dull, and I don't relish the idea of being the 3rd necro in a group or raid.

[packrat2488]

My main is a Enchant/Conj AM and I am extremely happy with his build. Now I won't say that gear and past lives don't play a part in this. The toon has both sorc and wizard past lives and my DCs are 42 enchant/41 conj. That being said I do alot of epics which is where this type of build shines. I think it really comes down to what you plan to do with the build. If you're looking for powerful evocations, go sorc. High DC insta-kills, go PM. High DC crowd control, AM.

[Adrian99]

I'm honestly thinking that if I'm going to focus on necro, I'm far better off as PM. The only thing I'd miss is the cheap webs.

Since I am a WF I do have the option of not going into undead mode and still reconstructing.

It's just sad that to be competitive I pretty much have to go necro. It almost makes me want to say "heck with it" and TR again. I find doing the same thing everyone else is doing to be very dull, and I don't relish the idea of being the 3rd necro in a group or raid.

Please allow me to summarize this in a way that might cause you to see the utter illogic of your line of reasoning: You don't want to min/max your toon, but you want the equivalent power of a min/max toon. Let that sink in.

[Qaliya]

Please allow me to summarize this in a way that might cause you to see the utter illogic of your line of reasoning: You don't want to min/max your toon, but you want the equivalent power of a min/max toon. Let that sink in.

That reasoning is indeed illogical, but it's not mine.

I don't want to be the most powerful wizard in the game. I just want to find something that's fun and not leveldrainfingerofdeatheverything and still makes a viable contribution to a party.

Packrat, I'd be interested to learn more about your build if you'd like to share.. especially, feats, enhancements, SLA choices, etc. Thanks. Also, what does your wizard do for damage? Or is it strictly designed for a support role in a party?

[Darkrok]

My two main priorities are self-sufficiency and being useful to a group without being a point-and-click necro. I just don't want to do that because there are too many wizards who do, most of them will be better than I am due to past lives and gear, and I want to complement them rather than compete with them.


If you want to see the big difference in healing ability, send a PM naked of any HP, or guard gear (no Boon, no DQ bracers, no Conc-Opp) into the Shavarath zone of The Vale and have them gather up a bunch of cats, orthons and devils, using nothing but the aura and SLAs to take the stuff down. When you get tripped, block (no shield). Then do the same with a WF.

Chances are, your WF ends up dying before everything else is dead, because they get spam-tripped while being gang-raped by fiends and can't get a Recon off. Meanwhile, the PM is probably lying on their back when the last couple of creatures die from the Death Aura that has been keeping them alive the whole time. Boon and the bracers add to this significantly.

What Sep said is very true. Add in Boon, DQ bracers, Con-op, a lifeshield weapon if you can fit it in (with clickies it can be done) and the PM will have a much easier time of things while helpless than the AM.

But you mentioned being self-sufficient and an asset to groups. If you're looking to mostly group then I'd consider seriously an Enchantment/Conjurer AM. It will play MUCH different from the point-click-dead builds. You can still use your SP's to do damage when needed but you don't need Extend, can focus feats on Spell Pen, will have very good sp's (since we'll only take the first 2 levels of each SLA), and would be a great addition to any group. You just won't be killing it on kill count...you'll be making everyone else do more damage with sla hypno's, webs, and single-target dances as well as dancing balls, mass holds, and then situational charms.

It's not the greatest solo build. You can't really kill things as effectively as a necro AM or a PM. But your groups will love you! :)

[Cam_Neely]

Personally I really liked the idea of my AM Drow 18/2 with heal scroll UMD, Necro/Enchant. But since it was not one of my main toons it was hard to gear to get where I wanted it. Switched to PM and he is quite serviceable in alot of content.

[gradeyshane]

Hey, if you are a WF AM geared up and ready to rock and you cant make a contribution to a party something is wrong with your style of play. Both are good arcane builds with all the tools in the box needed to get the job done effectively and with flair...you just need to do it.

[Qaliya]

You can still use your SP's to do damage when needed but you don't need Extend, can focus feats on Spell Pen, will have very good sp's (since we'll only take the first 2 levels of each SLA), and would be a great addition to any group. You just won't be killing it on kill count...you'll be making everyone else do more damage with sla hypno's, webs, and single-target dances as well as dancing balls, mass holds, and then situational charms.

It's not the greatest solo build. You can't really kill things as effectively as a necro AM or a PM. But your groups will love you! :)

Well, I am finding that right now I can't really solo anything anyway unless I chug pots. And even though I prefer soloing at lower levels, at higher levels groups seem to be the way to go.

Maybe it's my cleric past life resurfacing, but I like the idea of the support role. :) So, how do I make that build? What should I do for feats, enhancements, etc? Thanks.

[kanbeki]

I'm honestly thinking that if I'm going to focus on necro, I'm far better off as PM. The only thing I'd miss is the cheap webs.

Since I am a WF I do have the option of not going into undead mode and still reconstructing.

It's just sad that to be competitive I pretty much have to go necro. It almost makes me want to say "heck with it" and TR again. I find doing the same thing everyone else is doing to be very dull, and I don't relish the idea of being the 3rd necro in a group or raid.

Not going into form pretty much cancels out the only reason to go PM, you might want to think about this more. And again those cheap webs are above and beyond anything a PM can hope to bring to a group, just saying.

[budalic]

Seriously? We're arguing about Wizard balance? Wizards, who are worth easily two melee classes in any group/raid, especially after U11 and U12?

Given that you play FvS, which, by your measurement system, can easily be worth at least two and half melee classes in any group/raid, I don't really see point of your post.

[Darkrok]

That reasoning is indeed illogical, but it's not mine.

I don't want to be the most powerful wizard in the game. I just want to find something that's fun and not leveldrainfingerofdeatheverything and still makes a viable contribution to a party.

Packrat, I'd be interested to learn more about your build if you'd like to share.. especially, feats, enhancements, SLA choices, etc. Thanks. Also, what does your wizard do for damage? Or is it strictly designed for a support role in a party?

At really low levels a conjuration spec'd wizard would do well to go cold-based as Niac's is an all or nothing spell with a massive kick.

Once you get to level 3 spells Acid Blast, Acid Rain, etc. that are Conjuration-based and have a save for at least part of the damage make acid a very worthy spec. I like acid in general for those mid-levels as it has less resists and Acid Rain does faster (though less efficient) damage.

At cap I think you almost have to go back to Cold/Elec simply because the Dots are that good but it really doesn't matter at that point. I'd always put at least 1 point in each force line simply because there are things you'll want to disintegrate as well as 1 point in each fire line because sometimes a Wall of Fire is the right choice. Really though this is an Epic-focused support build and any damage is secondary. You can be the most important member in some quests like eDA with an Ench/Con spec'd AM without logging a single kill.

[Qaliya]

Darkrok, thanks, though I am still not entirely clear on how this build would work. By "each force line" do you mean the +20% damage, the +4% crit chance and the +25% crit damage?

What do I want for feats and enhancements and SLAs here? I'm level 18 now so end game is what matters, and I don't want to have to redo the character twice. :)

Thanks.

[kanbeki]

Chances are, your WF ends up dying before everything else is dead, because they get spam-tripped while being gang-raped by fiends and can't get a Recon off. Meanwhile, the PM is probably lying on their back when the last couple of creatures die from the Death Aura that has been keeping them alive the whole time. Boon and the bracers add to this significantly.



I don't think the healing is very far apart, but there is definitely a difference, and it is not insignificant.

Why would you let yourself get into a situation like this when you have the most potent crowd control in the game currently? Take your PM into the manufactury and start clearing to LOB naked, without damage mitigation DA and NEB will not keep you up as well as recon + any repair spell would

[Darkrok]

This thread got me thinking...for leveling up I know I can basically jump around + nuke my way through elites on a well-geared sorc. Setting up as an ench/conj AM is that still viable while leveling? I've got an 18/2 elven PM that I'm loving right now...have him set up with some interesting design choices (no Extend or Empower, no Enchantment, but have Shield Mastery with 6ap's to eliminate the ASF on Light and Darkness Unsuppressed and Shield Prof/Mastery) but my next life I'd like to try something completely different. The problem is that I solo a ton and want to be able to get through to the cap quickly like I was able to on my PM and Evoker/Conj.

Also, the OP asked about AM Docents. Dragontouched is great, especially for making different docents, a healing amp 10%/20% for example when getting mass healed. I also love the unsuppressed Quor'forged Docent. It's just an outstanding slot consolidator giving you Toughness, Con +6, and Superior False life all in one item. Before level 16 you've got the Blademark's Docent while will provide great DR for those early levels, Gorgon's Docent for stoneskin proc's, and DoD for that juicy dr 20/- proc. You won't need to wear Minos starting at level 18 (you'll certainly be able to fit in Moderate or Heavy fort one in some slot) which frees up the head slot for something else. While docents get a bit of the shaft at end-game I think they're a bit ahead while leveling up.

[Qaliya]

Also, the OP asked about AM Docents. Dragontouched is great, especially for making different docents, a healing amp 10%/20% for example when getting mass healed. I also love the unsuppressed Quor'forged Docent. It's just an outstanding slot consolidator giving you Toughness, Con +6, and Superior False life all in one item.

I do like this item but how much grinding will I need to get it? Not a big fan of grinding. :)

Can anyone point me to a conj/ench WF AM build? I've been searching but can't really find one.

Thanks.

[Darkrok]

Darkrok, thanks, though I am still not entirely clear on how this build would work. By "each force line" do you mean the +20% damage, the +4% crit chance and the +25% crit damage?

What do I want for feats and enhancements and SLAs here? I'm level 18 now so end game is what matters, and I don't want to have to redo the character twice. :)

Thanks.

Yes on the 'each xxx line'. The way they've set up the enhancements now it makes a lot of sense for wizards to sink 1 point into the 20%, 4% crit, 25% crit damage lines. A Black Dragon Bolt with just an arcane lore item (not even a greater or a ToD set + greater to get the same effect as major) is a nice addition to DPS when you've used those 3ap in acid. Disintegrates get a really nice boost out of those 3ap in force. Wall of Fire still does appreciable damage if you spent 3ap in fire. You get the idea here...3ap's in several lines can be better on a wizard than going all-out in any one line. The exception to this for me is cold IF you're running a lot of Shroud/DQ/Reaver as cold is your go-to damage type there.

Feats (7 normal + 4 wizard through 18 = 11 so far out of 12 at cap): Toughness, Mental Toughness, SF: Ench, GSF: Ench (don't forget this can't come as a wizard bonus), SF: Conj, GSF: Conj (see previous note), Max, Emp, Quicken, Heighten, and Spell Pen (can't be taken as a wizard bonus feat). Your last feat would be Extend unless you'd rather have Greater Spell Pen. Then you would have to drop Empower until level 20 where you would decide between Empower or Extend. I can honestly see a valid argument in favor of Extend on this type of a build. You're not the group's killer...you're support. Extend allows you to provide support more efficiently. And Empower is a 25% bonus to damage when you already have Maximize (it takes you from 200% damage to 250% damage). I've dropped it on my PM and don't miss it nearly as much as I miss Extend (which I also dropped) but YMMV.

Edit: Forgot you had wizard PL. You'd probably just go with 1 Spell Pen then with either Empower/Extend or no Spell Pen to get both to make room for the Wizard PL. This means you have Toughness, GSF: Ench, GSF: Conj, Wizard Past Life, and Spell Pen all have to be taken on normal feat slots so keep that in mind.

[sephiroth1084]

I'm honestly thinking that if I'm going to focus on necro, I'm far better off as PM. The only thing I'd miss is the cheap webs.

Since I am a WF I do have the option of not going into undead mode and still reconstructing.

It's just sad that to be competitive I pretty much have to go necro. It almost makes me want to say "heck with it" and TR again. I find doing the same thing everyone else is doing to be very dull, and I don't relish the idea of being the 3rd necro in a group or raid.
If you don't want to be the third PM in a raid because you want to be different, that's fine, but multiple PMs tend to stack better than multiple AMs, if only because their healing gets multiplied.

That reasoning is indeed illogical, but it's not mine.

I don't want to be the most powerful wizard in the game. I just want to find something that's fun and not leveldrainfingerofdeatheverything and still makes a viable contribution to a party.

Packrat, I'd be interested to learn more about your build if you'd like to share.. especially, feats, enhancements, SLA choices, etc. Thanks. Also, what does your wizard do for damage? Or is it strictly designed for a support role in a party?
You don't have to finger everything. On my PM I still use Mass Hold (sometimes because creatures have high Fort saves and sometimes because I want to do something besides Wail, Circle of Death and Finger, and sometimes because I want everyone else to have some fun, so I gift wrap stuff for the melees), Web, Irresistible Dance, disco ball, Ice Storm...a lot of the time I'll cast a single Mass Hold and take stuff down with an Ice Storm and alternating Necrotic Bolt and Blast. Sometimes I'll charm stuff, but rarely, more due to groups being able to kill stuff quickly, and therefore not needing charms, rather than not needing them for myself. Remember, just because you've selected a PrE doesn't mean that you're no longer a wizard, and being a wizard means spell variety!


But you mentioned being self-sufficient and an asset to groups. If you're looking to mostly group then I'd consider seriously an Enchantment/Conjurer AM. It will play MUCH different from the point-click-dead builds. You can still use your SP's to do damage when needed but you don't need Extend, can focus feats on Spell Pen, will have very good sp's (since we'll only take the first 2 levels of each SLA), and would be a great addition to any group. You just won't be killing it on kill count...you'll be making everyone else do more damage with sla hypno's, webs, and single-target dances as well as dancing balls, mass holds, and then situational charms.

See my above comments. The extra SP that the AM gets, and some of the potentially cheaper CC are the biggest draws there, though being able to Torc/Conc-Opp mana back more efficiently levels the SP playing field I think.


Why would you let yourself get into a situation like this when you have the most potent crowd control in the game currently? Take your PM into the manufactury and start clearing to LOB naked, without damage mitigation DA and NEB will not keep you up as well as recon + any repair spell would
Sometimes those situations arise. For example, I went into Elite Bastion of Power with a group that wiped on the end fight, except for me, and I set about soloing the basically 90% of the marilith's HP. There end up being a lot of cats, which, in addition to the marilith herself, can all knock you down. Even while running Hasted, Jumping and being Displaced, you're very likely to get tripped at some point during that fight, and being able to take more damage than your HP total, because you're healing even while on your back is very powerful. NEB as soon as you're up and running to keep on truckin'.

I can't speak to LoB as I have only run it a couple of times, and on a melee at that, but I've tanked the Epic Conjoined Abishai Devastator while self-healing on a PM and continuing to toss out some CC on the trash and dealing damage to the boss for around 5 minutes, before deciding that a party that couldn't even manage to get raised and rebuffed while someone had the attention of half the room wasn't worth drinking pots for and Teleporting out of there.

Now, the biggest advantage of WF healing is that you're much more likely to have someone else around that can help you with that, which is a big deal, and is one of the balancing factors between the two styles. Can the WF do any of the above? Maybe. Likely, but I've definitely felt a lot more powerful with a PM than with an AM. And getting mana back is cheaper, as you can often cast just one or two lvl 4 spells and shield block your way to a fuller blue bar instead of caster several level 6 spells and/or using scrolls.

Scrolls are another advantage on the Recon side. Like I said, not a huge gulf.

[Qaliya]

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.


Your last feat would be Extend unless you'd rather have Greater Spell Pen. Then you would have to drop Empower until level 20 where you would decide between Empower or Extend.

Not sure what you mean by "drop Empower until 20". Are you just basically saying I have to choose two of the three (GSP, Empower or Extend)?



I can honestly see a valid argument in favor of Extend on this type of a build. You're not the group's killer...you're support. Extend allows you to provide support more efficiently.

But it doesn't really affect most of the CC stuff does it? Maybe dancing ball? I'm not sure. I thought it was mainly for buffs.



And Empower is a 25% bonus to damage when you already have Maximize (it takes you from 200% damage to 250% damage). I've dropped it on my PM and don't miss it nearly as much as I miss Extend (which I also dropped) but YMMV.

Fair enough.

What SLAs would you take? I'm assuming grease/web and hypno, but anything beyond that? Would Otto's Resistible Dance be worth taking? I use the no-save version of that but it gets pricey.

I'm still not sure what this build does to actually damage stuff after the CC is done though. :)

[Qaliya]

Anyone else?

I'm amazed that I can't seem to find any AM CC builds. :/

Thanks.

[Luthe111]

far as AM goes, its biggest cc class in game. there r the rare players that r god type cc that rnt, but mainly on epics, if ur wizard is cc'ing stuff and its a sure shot to get things held, its an AM. and on a side note, an evocation AM is more or less a gimped savant. evocation is included as it is a spell school, but wizards use necro/enchant/conjuration etc, while evocation is a sorc thing.

[tyga250]

How to build a AM:

FEATS:
-SF: Conjuration
-SF: Enchantment
-SF: Necromancy
-GSF: Necromancy

Enhancements:
-Primary AM Focus: Necromancy
-Secondary AM Focus: Conjuration
-SLA: Web
-SLA: hypno


With this setup, you will have:
-Exactly the same necro DC as a PM (race not withstanding. For WF 42 first life, 43 second life, 44 second life with +3 tome).
-3 SP webs (41-43 DC, works extremely well in epics).
-1 SP hypnos (basically adds +3 to your 40-42 enchant DC).
-If your WF (which 99% of AM are) you get superior healing with reconstruct (instant cast ~300hp).
-More SP.
-Don't need to change forms / spend mana to retain high DCs all around.

[Qaliya]

Thanks. What if I want less focus on Necro and more on Enchant/CC?

I still would like to do some necro but I don't think I want to spend two feats on it. I really want it to be more of a backup since every wizard in the game seems to focus on necro.

I am also thinking of taking Otto's as a second level SLA for cheap dances.

[tyga250]

I guess you could just switch around Enchant feats and enhancements with Necro but I have to ask why? You will be able to control everything in epics with the setup I wrote AND be able to insta-kill everything once held.

[baii]

Pretty simple :

Am require less gear. Less TR , Less Grind and work as effective as a pm.
Pm just add favors and more to do.

Try run a pm with starter gear, you with spend all your sp just on self healing.

[Kmnh]

I played an enchantment/conjuration archmage before u9.

The build is fairly straightforward: Greater spell focus enchantment, spell focus conjuration, greater spell penetration. toughness, quicken spell, maximize spell, heighten spell, mental toughness. The last 2 feats can be anything. Shield proficiency+shield mastery is cute. Empower helps your soloability/dps. Insightful reflexes is a life saver.


Gearing up a wizard is quick. I won't say easy, because it may require skills that you don't have yet. Get your Yugoloth favor as soon as possible, buy greater focus shards from a crafter, buy a +2 int tome, use your +2 ship shrine., get a dt robe or greensteel weapon with +1 exceptional int. That will place you at a DC of 39.

With the right debuffs (hypnotism/crushing despair/mind fog for will or waves of exhaustion/solid fog for reflex) that DC will get you through most content. Add the spells that can't be saved against (power word:stun, power word:kill and otto's irrestible dance) and the general debuffs (enervation, energy drain, symbol of death) and if you play it correctly you can beat any epic quest in the game.

[Qaliya]

I guess you could just switch around Enchant feats and enhancements with Necro but I have to ask why? You will be able to control everything in epics with the setup I wrote AND be able to insta-kill everything once held.

This is my first wizard and my gear is minimal, so I want to put the feats towards the CC side rather than spending two on necro. Even with 1 or 2 lower DC the necro should work most of the time. I just want to be good at the CC stuff with the necro more secondary.

You've all given me some good stuff to work on, thanks.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I love my palemaster. However, I am painfully aware of it's limitations at times:
1. Low SP pool. No SP buffs like what AM gets and everytime I rest I have to spend 100 SP to use my shroud.
2. Expensive spells. No free CC here, I can't get through part 1 of eDA without drinking a pot as I have to rely on SP intensive CC/instant death.
3. Low DPS. The only persistent DPS that I can manage is necrotic bolt/blast which identical in damage to arcane bolt/blast. Other than that it is SP intensive to push out DPS. From time to time I've been very jealous of an AM's ability to keep up the damage by cycling evo and AM SLA's.
4. Expensive self healing. PM survivability is why I went this route but it is quite inefficient to heal yourself with SP and you can't be healed with positive energy.
5. Light vulnerability. This isn't really an issue at cap since my HP has gone up so much (547 on a first life drow) but while leveling with an elite bravery bonus I would get one shotted occasionally. Soloing is definitely better as a WF AM.
6. Boredom. Leveling a PM was often boring. Kite to DA Red, firewall, stand in firewall and shield block. Even on elite not many mobs could bypass the self healing ticks/DR combo. A WF on the hand wants to shoot off as few recons as possible so is much kore invested in minimising incoming damage.

Gear will overcome a lot of these issues in most cases but it will continue to be an issue sometimes. If I wanted to play a pure wizardly wizard then I'd go WF AM. However I really enjoy the tanking style of PMs which is while I'll take shield mastery on a future life. Tanking mobs like epic turigulon is just hilarious.

[Psiandron]

Qaliya,
I run a 12/2 AM/rogue who's an invoker and really have to disagree that AMs are fatally flawed. I have a lot of fun playing this toon and he does excellent damage and generally gets a lot of kills with out having to try too hard.

I do agree that the SLAs could use some tweeking: maybe give us 2 or 3 choices as to which spell we want at a given level. I only took the MM SLA (Maximize always on) as I haven't really wanted to invest spellpoints in spells that I won't want to use enough to justify that investment. And, while Gust of Wind is often handy, I really doubt I cast it 8 times between rests ever which is what i'd need to do for it to pay for itself in SP cost. I would rather have a big spellpoint pool to be able to cast an array of spells from.

I don't know what your casting style is like, but I find that the strength of the AM invoker is that big SP pool and the ability to bring a lot of varied and powerful evocation spells to use. My toon is a fire and ice guy, but he uses a lot of necro, force, lightning and some acid spells in his attacks. I've tried to keep his spell pen strong and all this seems to work well.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to talk down to you. Iirc you're a more accomplished player than I am, but other than the SLAs, I reallly disagree with your assessment of the AM PRE and its strength, especially in comparisson to the PM. I think both are capable of generating extremely strong toons. BTW, have you ever looked at the PMs costs in getting their summoned creatures? It's a pretty staggering number of enhancement points to invest in, what would be for a pm, useless abilities.

[Qaliya]

Psiandron... I enjoyED my evoked AM as well. Until about level 17 or so. Before then it was great, and even now I can blast my way through the Vale explorer area with most things dying before they even know I am there.

The problem is with the content above that.

Doing elite or even hard quests above the vale, even the trash monsters have 1000+ HP, and often very good saves. I just can't generate enough damage to take them down. While I have 7 damage-based SLAs at my disposal, some of them quite cheap, by the time I cycle through them enough to waste a mob or two, I've probably spent more than I would have just instakilling them.

Same occurs even on level 18 challenges in House Cannith. If there's more than a handful of mobs, I'm toast.

It doesn't help that, again, the two highest-level evoker SLAs are both poor choices and messed up in a bad way. And Arcane Bolt and Blast both suck also at higher levels, thanks to no metas and reflex saves which combine to mean "Evasion" all over your screen.

I could probably persist with this build until level 20, but the writing is clearly on the wall.

I really will miss the cheap empowered maximized chain missiles... but even that, lately, just isn't getting the job done in stuff above the mid-teens. And two feats on SF/GSF:Evocation is a waste.

So no, I won't write off all of AM. But clearly making a flexible evoker AM -- as is very popular in P&P -- is not viable in DDO.

Wax: Good recounting of the weaknesses of PMs. I am going to stick with AM but go enchant/conjuration/necro, I guess. It's really mainly the evocation that just doesn't work any more. I guess I'll have to TR into sorceror for that.

[Psiandron]

That's interesting Qaliya. I've long thought, due to some of what I've read on these forums, that the day might come when evoker might not cut it. Higher end content is austensibly better played as a CC wizard. I've considered that I may come to the point, as it sounds that you have, where I'll throw in the evoker towel and switch to Enchantment. I'll probably incarnate my rogue levels out too some day to get the capstone. Just a wall I want to run into myself I guess. :D

[donfilibuster]

I have the full line of evocation SLAs, along with two conjuration SLAs. Web works great, but the two top level evocation spells are a mess.


I stopped reading at this point. This is your problem, get rid of them seriously 0.o
It is like when your average players tought pale master was for the skelly pets, it was a pain to hear that everytime.

So yeah, pale masters are decidedly strong at what they do, they are sturdy, they save a lot of sp, they have high DC and can spec on neg. energy, take less feats, take less action points, etc.

But then you are stuck with the necromancer build. For everyone that don't need the whole package there's the archmage.
It is a wider kit so you get to choose and gotta skip some things because you simply can't have them all.

The extra sp is nice but only works if you are good with your spells alone.
The DC bonus is enough when you can stick to single school, in fact, the whole of the archmage revolves about having a single strong school.
Even the arcane bolt SLA is not a must-have, you can do well with regular non-maximized spells.
The spell SLAs are just the toys just like the palemaster has the pets. Usable, yes, raw power, not so much.

The pale masters are strong end-game, the archmage is strong in the early-game, it was that way and remains so.
No one said that because there's two PrEs both had to be usable end-game, you can even go without a PrE and do well.
If you can, get the necro focus feats and switch as needed, any focus feats you take are never wasted.

[Luthe111]

another important mention is that pm's r practically useless till they get their lv 12 undead forms, meaning over half the lv's u spend gimped. though naysaying to those against self heal sp costs, one con opp or torc proc covers an aura. i realize some people may never even see a torc, but con opps fairly simple to get, and even more so after u12. but in referance to AM, one of these procs will fuel multiple SLAs. though in the whole byoh healer department, AM has to spend more sp, as u need to blow sp per heal, where aura keeps going for near 3 mins, and each one costs less then a recon. honestly, its play style and preferance.

[balancetraveller]

LOL to OP, you are using a PrE in a way not representing its main purpose, now it's acting poor and you wanna ask the company to fix this? Simply LOL!

If you wanna go pewpew, it's just like Sorc > PM > Arti >>>>> AM. AM is the master of Enchantment/Conjuration schools, it's role in a party is way more supportive then PM. If it doesn't fit your style, you should try something else. If you don't wanna try something else because you "wanna be different", then learn to use the PrE in it's field of mastery instead of complaining on the forum!

[wax_on_wax_off]

another important mention is that pm's r practically useless till they get their lv 12 undead forms, meaning over half the lv's u spend gimped. though naysaying to those against self heal sp costs, one con opp or torc proc covers an aura. i realize some people may never even see a torc, but con opps fairly simple to get, and even more so after u12. but in referance to AM, one of these procs will fuel multiple SLAs. though in the whole byoh healer department, AM has to spend more sp, as u need to blow sp per heal, where aura keeps going for near 3 mins, and each one costs less then a recon. honestly, its play style and preferance.

I think that I spend much more SP on self healing on my PM than what I ever did on my AM.

Extended Death Aura (probably) costs 34 SP and lasts for 2:24. This means that for a 10 minute trip between shrines you'll spend ~136 SP. In 95% of situations this sufficient self healing.

5% of the time this isn't enough however and you have to resort to NEB. This spell costs 67 SP for a pure wizard before other discounts. This is a hugely expensive form of healing.

What it comes down to is that there is little incentive for a PM to limit the amount of incoming damage while a WF will only use as much SP as he needs to. This can range from 0 if there is an attentive healer close by to up to roughly what a PM might use (as mobs should stay CC'd or out of otherwise out of reach most of the time). While soloing it is quite simple to just rely on repair wands for self healing if SP conservation is an issue.

[Shinjiteru]

I really liked this thread because I learned something new about wizards.

But I don't think that one of the wizard PrEs is better than the other. Think most people think about maximizing DC and having the possibility to self heal. So you either go WF for reconstruct + heals/cures from a healer or PM for aura +NEB, not every healer has harm prepped or cares about using it. Or you go drow for best DC and less HP, but if you want DC + self healing you have to go PM and use 100sp to enter the 'stance' that maximizes the DC for the current situation. Without good equip you still want to go vampire for cc instead of lich, after you got a decent gear I prefer lich because of the HP and +2 int.

I like that both PrEs have the same DC in the end, because I don't like to see another class where 95% of the players took the same race... we already have that for str based toons and half-orc atm...

[Cartheron]

AM has 1 higher DC in their primary school at end game (choose necro).

I just want to point to the fact that this is not true.

AM gets +2 for primary school (necro as stated above), PM in lich form gets +1 necro DC and +2int=+1DC, which means that they are equal DC in necro. And to be honest, this is only true if both are of the same race. Now, AM will be WF, as stated many times in this thread, and PM will be human/drow, so +1DC here.

To sumarize, for primary school necro PM will have 1 DC more. For primary school enchantment, DC will be equal, if PM takes GSF:ench.

Greatest advantage of AM are dirt cheap webs and to lesser extent, hypno.

If you are first life with little gear, go WF AM - easier to stay alive, easier to not run out of sp.

After you get your gear (torc, conc-opp, bracers of demon consort, robe with boon of undeath, good shield, some DR items etc), PM becomes much more powerful - same or higher DC, incredible survivability and no sp problems thanks to regen.

Yea, I think that AM needs some buffs, because I cant see any reason to be endgame geared AM over PM.

Btw, instakill are ultimate form of CC - if it is dead, it cannot do any harm;)

[sirio.gala]

Just nerf a little PM, drop some mobs saves, so am and rogues will be able to have more fun.

[Viisari]

AM will be WF, as stated many times in this thread, and PM will be human/drow, so +1DC here.

Correction: *Most* AM's will be wf because that's the easymode for easymode.

My AM is a human and destroys content just fine, just more difficult to play than a wf is.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Correction: *Most* AM's will be wf because that's the easymode for easymode.

My AM is a human and destroys content just fine, just more difficult to play than a wf is.

It's fine if you have self healing from other sources but there isn't really any incentive to make a wizard that isn't self sufficient when it is so easy to be completely self sufficient.

[Viisari]

It's fine if you have self healing from other sources but there isn't really any incentive to make a wizard that isn't self sufficient when it is so easy to be completely self sufficient.

With AM having to take mental toughness the extra feat humans get is actually a pretty big deal, and then there's the +1dc above wf. Scrolls are sufficient for healing, granted not as powerful or convenient as reconstruct but they are still enough. Yes, even for epics.

[Micron]

To sumarize, for primary school necro PM will have 1 DC more. For primary school enchantment, DC will be equal, if PM takes GSF:ench.

Sorry, can you elaborate on how the Enchantment DC will be equal? Assuming both have the same feats, AM gets +2 DC from enhancements, PM gets +1 from the +2 lich Int. Where does the other +1 come from that makes the PM's DC equal?

[Drekisen]

Seriously, if you want an awesome evocator you make a Sorc, if you want an awesome anything else you make a wizard........I'm sure you can do well as an AM evocator but wizards in general were meant more to dabble in the other schools....so that is probably more likely the real problem.

[gloopygloop]

The biggest balance between PM and AM that I see is Searing Light and Sunburst. Both of those spells are very common from enemy casters and both of those spells are essentially instakill spells vs. Pale Masters while they just barely tickle an Archmage.

[gloopygloop]

Sorry, can you elaborate on how the Enchantment DC will be equal? Assuming both have the same feats, AM gets +2 DC from enhancements, PM gets +1 from the +2 lich Int. Where does the other +1 come from that makes the PM's DC equal?

Yugo pots. Pale Masters have 200% fortification while in Lich form, so they can take a -50% fortification penalty with no problems.

[Micron]

Yugo pots. Pale Masters have 200% fortification while in Lich form, so they can take a -50% fortification penalty with no problems.

Ah okay, perhaps the "with no problems" bit should have been included in the DC summary then.

Anyway, people used yugo pots for a long time before the PM was released so I don't see why AMs couldn't use them now. It's not like you instantly die if you let your fort temporarily drop below 100%, especially if you're using Enchantment spells that don't generate a whole lot of aggro.

[Drekisen]

The biggest balance between PM and AM that I see is Searing Light and Sunburst. Both of those spells are very common from enemy casters and both of those spells are essentially instakill spells vs. Pale Masters while they just barely tickle an Archmage.

Agreed....these spells are very prevalent in the game and hurt A LOT when you are a PM and also require the MUST HAVE NEED for quicken to be on at all times when around these types of spells because you WILL NOT make a successful concentration check while in form.

Of course while in form we DO get a lot of immunities a non-PM does not :p

[Cartheron]

Sorry, can you elaborate on how the Enchantment DC will be equal? Assuming both have the same feats, AM gets +2 DC from enhancements, PM gets +1 from the +2 lich Int. Where does the other +1 come from that makes the PM's DC equal?

I have actually "elaborated" that. AM = WF in 99% of cases. PM = drow or human in 99% of cases. +1 DC here. Yugo pot is just a bonus;)

[ZerOpainT]

Archmages are a LOT more powerful than PMs. Evocation is a bad line, but enchantment, necromancy and conjuration are all seriously powerful.

Sure, building an archmage right requires more planning, more creative spell use and more gear, but I figure that is a good thing.



I concurr, I was a PM in my previous life. After i Tr'd i built towards a AM build, it does require more carefull planning and better gear than an PM. I dont have a problem outkilling PM in any Epic, even tho my necro DC is only at 42 and Enchants at 44.


Archmage FTW !!

[Lord_Thanatos]

I concurr, I was a PM in my previous life. After i Tr'd i built towards a AM build, it does require more carefull planning and better gear than an PM. I dont have a problem outkilling PM in any Epic, even tho my necro DC is only at 42 and Enchants at 44.


Archmage FTW !!

How would any two equally geared wizards out kill each other based on their prestige choices? Considering that we all use the same spells in epics, If both are built for necro spells, then the only difference would be who fires off the first spell...

Which has nothing to do with the differences between the two Pre's.

[Darkrok]

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.


Not sure what you mean by "drop Empower until 20". Are you just basically saying I have to choose two of the three (GSP, Empower or Extend)?


But it doesn't really affect most of the CC stuff does it? Maybe dancing ball? I'm not sure. I thought it was mainly for buffs.



Fair enough.

What SLAs would you take? I'm assuming grease/web and hypno, but anything beyond that? Would Otto's Resistible Dance be worth taking? I use the no-save version of that but it gets pricey.

I'm still not sure what this build does to actually damage stuff after the CC is done though. :)

A couple things. Yeah, you have to choose on the feats. For me I'd drop Greater Spell Pen and Empower to fit in Extend and the Wizard Past Life (forgot that one in my first post. 1 Spell Pen feat should be enough and we're wanting a group-friendly build...2 minute hastes/displaces are neither group nor blue-bar friendly. I could easily be swayed to swap Empower and Extend though if you really wanted the extra 25% for your nukes.

The dance SLA is well worth it when your DC is as high as you'll have it. On most enemies it'll be identical to the irresistible dance and the ones that are likely to have the will save to resist it can most likely be webbed.

Damage dealing all depends on which elemental line you decide that you like. I'd focus on conjuration-based spells though since we've taken feats to boost the DC. Also, conjuration has a clunky but usable instakill in Trap the Soul. I would make a lot of use of that if you've got the patience to deal with all the soul gems and dragonshards.