Strategy or Exploit?

[Qaliya]

So I'm still masochistically trying out these new challenges. And someone I was with made a suggestion which I tried, and it seems to make all of the kobold island quests into pretty much a joke.

I'm not going to say what it is. I'm just curious how and where and when Turbine draws the line between what is an exploit and what is just smart strategy.

If a dev wants to send me a PM I can be more specific.

[Arnhelm]

If you think it's a bug, report it. You might make game-play better for everyone.

[In_Like_Flynn]

If you have to ask, it's probably an exploit.

[gloopygloop]

If you have to ask, it's probably an exploit.

There's also a lot of things that people think are exploits that actually aren't.

Things like
Standing where a melee-only enemy can't reach you while you plink it to death from range
Leap of Faith/Abundant Step/Rocket Boots to get to the second book in Sleeping Dust before getting to the first book
Leap of Faith/Abundant Step to get purple coins during the Risian games
Instance switching in Mabar to find undead to slaughter instead of just waiting for them to spawn
Running past enemies while invisible instead of fighting them
Casting invisibility on friendly targets (like kobolds, Coyle, harvesters, altars, etc) to get enemies to ignore them and fight you instead
Kiting enemies instead of tanking them
and many, many more.

If people think that all of those are exploits (and they certainly aren't), then maybe asking if something is an exploit might not be such a good indicator that something probably is an exploit.

[voodoogroves]

Compare and contrast....

1 turning in dubloons for stuf to sell and make plat
2 something that acts odd because of an error condition and generates plat

I firmly believe the second is and exploit. The first is more very efficient use of in game real (heh) mechanics.

If it makes you feel better I solod those BEFORE I heard about the trick I tink you're talking about ... haven't tried that way yet, but it is doable without for sure.

[waterboytkd]

Compare and contrast....

1 turning in dubloons for stuf to sell and make plat
2 something that acts odd because of an error condition and generates plat

I firmly believe the second is and exploit. The first is more very efficient use of in game real (heh) mechanics.

This. The first started a fiery debate on these forums as to whether or not it was actually an exploit. The second (recent events), no one has tried to argue it wasn't an exploit. It so very obviously was.

When you have to ask if it's an exploit, sometimes, you really do have to ask.

That said, it would be super if the OP could find out for sure if it's an exploit or not. If it isn't, I would love to hear details, as only a minority of my guild is actually interested in challenges, so being able to solo or short-man them would sweet.

[Rumbaar]

My Archon can target and hit enemies through a wall or from behind a pillar. Is that bad game design or an exploit? My Blade Barrier can hit targets through a barrier or door, is that bad game design or an exploit?

If I am able to get poorly designed AI or game mechanics to make things easier, why is that an exploit?

[vyvy3369]

This (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172475) is the best list you're likely to find. Or check my signature for a good summary from a dev.

[jingseng]

So I'm still masochistically trying out these new challenges. And someone I was with made a suggestion which I tried, and it seems to make all of the kobold island quests into pretty much a joke.

I'm not going to say what it is. I'm just curious how and where and when Turbine draws the line between what is an exploit and what is just smart strategy.

If a dev wants to send me a PM I can be more specific.

If you have to ask about something in a non specific manner that hides whatever it is you are asking about, it is an exploit.

[waterboytkd]

If you have to ask about something in a non specific manner that hides whatever it is you are asking about, it is an exploit.

I just found out about it not too long ago (I think). Honestly, it doesn't seem like an exploit. You're certainly not taking advantage of any kind of behavior breaking bug, which is the closest no-no it would fit into. But it may not have been intended, either. Does not intended automatically mean exploit? From what I understand, there's a number of things in this game the devs didn't intend that work to the players' benefit, but aren't considered exploits. So...I would really love a Dev comment.

[EatSmart]

Well, what's being done is fully WAI within the parameters of the spell, and the paramaters of monster AI. On the other hand the tactic is a massive easy button. Certainly the players should be rewarded for bringing and using the spell, but there does need to be a tweak to the challenge. Some (not all) of the wandering monsters need to have the counter-buff, that's all.

[Qaliya]

I got a reply from someone at Turbine by PM and have responded. I'll reply here with what I find out.

I don't believe this is an exploit, but I wanted to check.

[voodoogroves]

And easy button or not, you don't need it to complete solo (though it may make higher returns easier)

[Palantyr]

I don't think casting invisibility qualifies as an exploit but I do expect to see it changed.

[butlerfamilywa]

*Cough*

Ok... Casting Invisibility on the Giant in Madstone Crater so as to prevent him from being attacked by monsters is not an exploit.

That being said..

Why would you not be able to invis the crystals?

Quote:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Invisibility_(Spell)
Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
The creature or object touched becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision.

So, a level 20 Wizard, casting Invisbility as a level 9 spell could Invis a 900 lb object...

However, DDO does not allow Invisibility to be Heighten'd, so it could only be a level 2 spell, making you able to cast it on no more than a 200lb object, meaning the giant crystals, shouldn't be able to be invis'd if they weight more than 200 lbs...


**EDIT**

DDO is not PnP D&D.. therefore the descriptions of the spell are different.

Description:
Invisibility renders a creature Invisible for 1 minute per caster level. This spell simply considers the creature is hidden with a Hide score of 20, but it isn't a bonus to Hide. Attacking a target, or using an object (Door, lever, etc.) removes this condition. Casting buffing or healing spells (except as an attack upon undead) and playing bardic music does NOT remove your Invisibility.

The description for DDO does not mention casting the spell on objects in any way... WAI?

However, I still do not believe that this would be an exploit, and my reasoning is because in PNP D&D, it would be allowable... however the DM would most likely give the monsters the ability to see thru invisibility, which would be the easiest fix for the Dev's to do with these challenges.

And on a side note to any forum moderators out there. I currently do not have a computer capable of connecting to DDO. I also am not currently a VIP member (have been most of the life of DDO), or a Premium member. Therefor I am unable to log into the game to report this as a bug, so.. consider this my bug report. Thank you.

[DeafeningWhisper]

My guess is bug, U shouldn't be able to target them at all.

[DocBenway]

My guess is bug, U shouldn't be able to target them at all.

But being untargetable would also keep them from being targeted by attackers, no? I can't think of anything in game that you have to defend / mobs attack, that you can't target yourself. I may be mistaken.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

But being untargetable would also keep them from being targeted by attackers, no? I can't think of anything in game that you have to defend / mobs attack, that you can't target yourself. I may be mistaken.

The box in Baudry's harbor chain?

[DocBenway]

The box in Baudry's harbor chain?

Been so long I never even thought of that. You're right, but you don't have to activate the crate either.

[Zeruell]

My guess is bug, U shouldn't be able to target them at all.

Strongly disagree. Repair spells can be a great boon in these challenges if things go south, and they should absolutely be applicable to those crystals.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Strongly disagree. Repair spells can be a great boon in these challenges if things go south, and they should absolutely be applicable to those crystals.

Well then expect TS to all mobs, Turbine deals with thing like this with a shotgun, not a scalpel.

[GotSomeQuestions]

The box in Baudry's harbor chain?
Or the Cannith Crystal in Korthos.

[DocBenway]

Or the Cannith Crystal in Korthos.

Also true, and also requires no player interaction to activate, upgrade and doesn't distribute magefire cannons to help in its defense.

[JakLee7]

This (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172475) is the best list you're likely to find. Or check my signature for a good summary from a dev.


404error: "If it feels like cheating then it probably is, if it feels to easy then its probably cheating, and if its to good to be true see me instantly."
then the harbor Baudry Cartamon quests are cheating because they are to (sic) easy - I mean really, the second one you only have to BREAK BOXES IN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME!

Really, there needs to be a way to ASK if something is ok or not without worrying about banishment for "cheating". When a quest is released into the wild it will sometimes spawn situations that were never contemplated in creation that require reevaluation of the mechanics to make them WAI.

You should not use a blanket statement to say ALWAYS X when talking about how to complete quests. Sometimes interesting tactics ARE cheating, but other times they are just tactics that no one thought of before.

[DeafeningWhisper]

then the harbor Baudry Cartamon quests are cheating because they are to (sic) easy - I mean really, the second one you only have to BREAK BOXES IN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME!

Really, there needs to be a way to ASK if something is ok or not without worrying about banishment for "cheating". When a quest is released into the wild it will sometimes spawn situations that were never contemplated in creation that require reevaluation of the mechanics to make them WAI.

You should not use a blanket statement to say ALWAYS X when talking about how to complete quests. Sometimes interesting tactics ARE cheating, but other times they are just tactics that no one thought of before.

Blanket rule, if it feels wrong report it as a bug, see the response U get.

[EatSmart]

So, a level 20 Wizard, casting Invisbility as a level 9 spell could Invis a 900 lb object...


You're confusing caster level and spell level. Otherwise our fireballs would be doing 3d6 damage... Level 20 wis would be 2k pounds, no metas required.

[butlerfamilywa]

You're confusing caster level and spell level. Otherwise our fireballs would be doing 3d6 damage... Level 20 wis would be 2k pounds, no metas required.

Actually, I'm not. It doesn't actually state weither it works on Caster level, or Spell level. That would be the rule of the GM/DM.. and if I was that person making the rule, I would say spell level. I don't see any reason why anyone would cast an Invis spell on a 2,000lb item, and if they were, it would be against a monster that would see through the enchantment anyways.

[Fecerak]

Actually, I'm not. It doesn't actually state weither it works on Caster level, or Spell level. That would be the rule of the GM/DM.. and if I was that person making the rule, I would say spell level. I don't see any reason why anyone would cast an Invis spell on a 2,000lb item, and if they were, it would be against a monster that would see through the enchantment anyways.

While it doesn't directly state it, in PnP Spell level normally never change stuff like that, and usually it doesn't state it on any spells, since it always is caster level we are talking about. So, sure, GM/DM could decide, but on the other hand, they could also decide that your fireballs do 3d6 damage, and that your fighter always miss on a natural 20, always hits on a natural 1 and if you beat their AC you miss, so that the lower your to-hit is, the more likely are you to hit. However, that is not the original rules, and it does not make sense either, which makes it unlikely to see in practice.

[Valakai]

Personally would not consider this an exploit. I also use repair spells on them to make things easier. If I would be banned for doing that I would consider it most strange. And yea you can complete the challenges without invis or repair solo just fine 3 stars at least by not using these. But they do make things easier.

Should not be targettable? Where does it say that? :)

[red_cardinal]

Or the Cannith Crystal in Korthos.

Yes, a gameplay/quest flaw. They should've thought of that. BUT... that isn't so important. It's a minor
issue.

The main problem is that paths at character creation screen aren't implemented to the end. This refers to
Prestige Enhancements for classes. Now, that's a game design flaw, which is FAR GREATER, than that
f2p quest flaw you found.

Raise your voices on the forums for devs to finish the blasted prestiges for all classes before introducing gnomes, or druids or something else with unfinished prestiges! How would you like your Druid not to have shapeshifting prestiges or have only tier 1? :P

[MsEricka]

As a note, before free to play the box in Baudry's WAS targetable. I don't remember if PC's could damage it, but I'm guessing they could.

[Cogdoc]

IIRC they could damage it. You can still set it on fire with burning hands, and sometimes it still gives a *clonk* sound when you swing the axe near it. You dont damage it anymore though, all is just visual and audio feedback, the actual damage doesnt register even if you see you have set it on fire.

Cogdoc

[Cogdoc]

So I'm still masochistically trying out these new challenges. And someone I was with made a suggestion which I tried, and it seems to make all of the kobold island quests into pretty much a joke.

I'm not going to say what it is. I'm just curious how and where and when Turbine draws the line between what is an exploit and what is just smart strategy.

If a dev wants to send me a PM I can be more specific.

Qualiya I think that you dont have to be afraid of this, as you are openly communicating this towards the devs and on the public forums, so noone will accuse you of hiding a bug and using it to your advantage. On the contrary! This is the exact kind of bug/exploit spotting activity what devs tried to encourage these days.

Also from what I read here you are using game mechanics, what is even logical in the way the quest is designed, not like looting a chest 1000 times instead of once what is clearly the intention of all chests...:)

Cogdoc

[Pank]

I think this can compare to the Dark Monks stuff in the Abbott. Not an exploit but it's not playing as the devs expect it to be, so they may eventually change quest mechanics for it not to happen.

[brzytki]

But being untargetable would also keep them from being targeted by attackers, no? I can't think of anything in game that you have to defend / mobs attack, that you can't target yourself. I may be mistaken.

The orb u have to protect in Finding the Path?

[Qaliya]

Appears that even though I didn't intend to, I gave too many hints as to what the issue was.

Thanks (sarcastically) to those who spilled the beans on something I clearly didn't want explicitly mentioned or I would have done so. :/

[DocBenway]

The orb u have to protect in Finding the Path?

Which you also do not have to interact with in any way to activate/upgrade/distribute other quest items. I guess I should have originally said:
I can't think of anything in game that you have to activate and use as well as defend / mobs attack, that you can't target yourself. Being unable to target would prevent activating and using it.

[dunklezhan]

Appears that even though I didn't intend to, I gave too many hints as to what the issue was.

Thanks (sarcastically) to those who spilled the beans on something I clearly didn't want explicitly mentioned or I would have done so. :/

Doesn't matter Q. If its determined to be an exploit, Turbine will ultimately remove this thread, and quite likely infraction whoever openly discussed the specific tactics. Which you didn't. so don't worry.

[Cogdoc]

Qaliya, I am stressing this again. This fear of mentioning an exploit is not what Turbine or any forum moderators would want. This would only make more hidden bugs/exploits, as even the people who found it and would like to have it closed down, will not be brave enough to stand up and ask, hey guys dont you think that this is an exploit?

If the first person who descovered the bug what caused our latest hotfix would have stood up saying, hey lads is that an exploit or a clever strategy (TM goes to Q :) ), you can imagine that the number of people who actually abused that, would be much smaller.

Forum moderators have all tools to delete posts for inappropriate content, or remove the thread completely. They will excercise these actions if required.

You have nothing to be worried about.

Cogdoc

[Kaldaka]

This thread has not been deleted = Its not an exploit :p

[Qaliya]

Thanks, but I'm not worried that I'm going to get banned or anything. I just didn't want more people to know about the issue until I got some input from Turbine.

[Truga]

Actually, I'm not. It doesn't actually state weither it works on Caster level, or Spell level. That would be the rule of the GM/DM.. and if I was that person making the rule, I would say spell level. I don't see any reason why anyone would cast an Invis spell on a 2,000lb item, and if they were, it would be against a monster that would see through the enchantment anyways.

x/level is always caster level. Spell level has nothing to do with anything because it's fixed. In pnp, you can slot higher level spell slots with lower level spells just fine, and fireball stays a level 3 spell even if it's in a level 9 slot.

The only thing heighten does is actually change the spell level to the level of the slot the spell is in. However, the only modifier I can think of off the top of my head is the DC, since it's the only thing affected by spell level. Well, that and concentration checks. Everything else, however, which doesn't specifically mention spell level is based off of caster level.

[voodoogroves]

x/level is always caster level. Spell level has nothing to do with anything because it's fixed. In pnp, you can slot higher level spell slots with lower level spells just fine, and fireball stays a level 3 spell even if it's in a level 9 slot.

The only thing heighten does is actually change the spell level to the level of the slot the spell is in. However, the only modifier I can think of off the top of my head is the DC, since it's the only thing affected by spell level. Well, that and concentration checks. Everything else, however, which doesn't specifically mention spell level is based off of caster level.

In PNP this has more implications, which are not implemented in DDO.

In PNP it actually changes the spell to act as if it was that level ... why bypass then mantles/gloves of invulnerability, etc. Reserve feats are powered by the highest level spell of the (fire/cold/whatever) you can still cast - and that would use the heightened value not the base value.

I could probably find more, but you get the picture. The invulnerability one is the biggest not implemented in DDO (although, here's hoping the by-spell-metamagics may change that).

[Zaodon]

Casting the "Invisibility" spell is never an exploit, no matter what you cast it on.

Remember, if you're not sure that something is an exploit, then its not.

Until Turbine says it is.

[Qaliya]

I love all the people who jump in here with their grand proclamations of certainty on this issue.

If it were that simple, I wouldn't have raised the matter in the first place.

I appreciate the feedback but it is not a cut-and-dried issue, IMO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

IMO, any "strategy" that becomes so much of an easy button, that every group "insists" that the "strategy" must be used......

...is an "exploit".

Or at least needs to be changed.


I admit there is a fine line though. But it is no fun when every single group decided that they have to do some specific strategy for an easy completion...every single time.
And throws a fit if someone doesn't cooperate with it.

That is really the deciding factor IMO. overuse....that ruins the fun.

[voodoogroves]

IMO, any "strategy" that becomes so much of an easy button, that every group "insists" that the "strategy" must be used......
... can become lame ...


...is an "exploit".
No



Or at least needs to be changed.
Quite possibly.

Then again, I like that some things can be solved by either brute force or cleverness.

You can, FWIW, complete Madstone Crater without invising the giants doing the ritual. It is possible.

[Truga]

Then again, I like that some things can be solved by either brute force or cleverness.

You can, FWIW, complete Madstone Crater without invising the giants doing the ritual. It is possible.

This. Then again, the first time I finished madstone crater, the casters that spawn above the giant rained hell onto enemies that were coming up on the ramps, and the melee dudes just got stuck trying to get onto the caster platforms. Which obviously never happened. I didn't even think of casting invis on the giant until later on (when I ran without a caster), because it'd have made exactly zero difference, thanks to all the charmed casters. Luckily when I ran without a caster the rogue had invis clickies on him. :P

So yeah, there's usually multiple "easy buttons" as long as you have a spellcaster/UMDer that knows how to use their spells... One of the obvious easy buttons is also the level 8 air elemental summon. Which is also available on cove clickies at level 1. Wait what? It can make even certain elite endgame quests a joke. Should it be nerfed? I think not, there's not a lot of content it actually works _that_ well on, and it's literally the only worthwhile summon. Apart from the beholder, of course. beholders are just that awesome.

[Vanquishedfo]

OP even suggesting this could be seen as an exploit is a sign your on the wrong game to be frank. If anything DDO doesnt have enough quests that have a more subtle option to victory. And yes casters should be able to do such fun lovely tricks, and there are several places in the game long before now that had that handy trick if anything invis has been nerfed into the ground as it is and creating one of these anti caster threads is why more arcanes dont buff non arcanes anymore.

THere has long been a special kind of balance in D&D warriors start strong but end average and casters start weak but end godly beyond all ken of mortal men. Any attempt to suggest a spell being used in the simple legitimate way it was mean to be used is an exploit is the sign of another anti caster conspiracy have fun never seeing another buff or heal on your toons again once they learn you started this kind of thread.

[Zeruell]

IMO, any "strategy" that becomes so much of an easy button, that every group "insists" that the "strategy" must be used......

...is an "exploit".

Or at least needs to be changed.

I don't think that's the case here.
It's not as if you can kickstart the harvesters, throw a few spells, and proceed to sit on your thumbs for the duration of the challenge. The mobs' pathing is such that, if left to their own devices, they'll still run across and wreck yours. ;)

The level of initial aggro that the crystals get as soon as they're spotted is just irritating, and I'm all for using the tools at our disposal to create a more favorable battlefield.

[brian14]

Until U12 -- or possibly until some earlier 2011 update, I am not sure, -- it was possible for a solo ranged (with enough arrows) or caster (with enough SP) to destroy Zombie Train in the Orchard in total safety. All you had to do is climb on top of the rock spire southeast of the train, and set your draw distance to maximum. You could target individual train guards while they milled around aimlessly.

This was a standard technique for years, and AFAIK nobody ever got banned for it. Well, Turbine finally got around to giving train guards some AI. Now if you start sniping at Zombie Train from that spire (or from anywhere), golem escorts will hit you with lightning bolts -- and some will run toward you.

Pretty much all player tactics depend on mobs' AI. When that AI is particularly stupid it makes game easy, but is not an exploit.

And frankly, why would anyone think that casting Invisibility on Coyle, or on anything you want to protect, is a cheat? Illusions are part of D&D. D&D Online does not give players many illusion options, but Invisibility is one of them.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

... can become lame ...


No



Quite possibly.

Then again, I like that some things can be solved by either brute force or cleverness.

You can, FWIW, complete Madstone Crater without invising the giants doing the ritual. It is possible.

The Invis part didn't bother me as much. Although there was a time when everyone insisted it was needed... but that seems to have gone away.

The blocking the monsters one bothered me. Luckily that too seems to have gone away.

There should be (many) ways to solve things without brute force. But when it becomes so much of an easy button that everyone, every group, every time... just has to do it....plans their group makeup around being able to do it....etc.

Then... is when it needs to be changed IMO.

For Invisibility (in any quest) monsters will stil detect things if they get close enough to it.
And many monsters have a pre-set path that takes them in a certain direction, towards a certain point...etc.

So Invisibility is not immunity.

IMO, casting Invisibility should never (guess I should say "not normally") be considered an exploit.
But if it becomes over used in some place, the quest should be changed.

[brian14]

One thing which confuses me about this thread: WHICH Challenge are you talking about?

I do not know of any challenge where you have to protect crystals of any kind...

[Darknark]

The blocking the monsters one bothered me. Luckily that too seems to have gone away.


But if it becomes over used in some place, the quest should be changed.


So, you are saying that tactics are okay as long as they aren't good enough that every group wants to use those tactics. I disagree, the point of tactics is to gain, in some form (directly or indirectly), an advantage through their use.

If your goal is to stop something from reaching a location, blocking it is a very logical choice.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I love all the people who jump in here with their grand proclamations of certainty on this issue.

If it were that simple, I wouldn't have raised the matter in the first place.

I appreciate the feedback but it is not a cut-and-dried issue, IMO.

Send a bug report, nothing can go wrong with doing that. If it turns out to be a bad thing, at least you can say you reported it and tried to get an answer.

[DocBenway]

There are creatures there who can see invis or have true seeing already. They just aren't many in number.

[Zeruell]

One thing which confuses me about this thread: WHICH Challenge are you talking about?

I do not know of any challenge where you have to protect crystals of any kind...

Kobold Island. Each extractor houses a crystal.

[Qaliya]

The Turbine employee I was speaking with responded back confirming that the behavior is not WAI. When I asked what that meant in terms of my gameplay, he/she said I should "avoid using invisibility on the crystals".

Not exactly definitive on the "strategy/exploit" question, but clear enough for me and, IMO, for anyone with a sense of fair play. I did some testing before deciding if it was a reasonable strategy or an unreasonable one. What I found was you can activate an extractor, invis the crystal, and then leave, and it will not be touched. That's obviously not what they were going for here.

I asked the individual to post something here or another thread, but no response back on that yet.

In retrospect, this thread was a mistake. I should have just filed a bug report and stopped doing it myself. Although I'm sure word of this would have gotten around eventually anyway.

[Zeruell]

I did some testing before deciding if it was a reasonable strategy or an unreasonable one. What I found was you can activate an extractor, invis the crystal, and then leave, and it will not be touched. That's obviously not what they were going for here.
(Bold emphasis mine.)

How much testing? This isn't what I've observed at all -- at least in Short Cuts.

[DocBenway]

(Bold emphasis mine.)

How much testing? This isn't what I've observed at all -- at least in Short Cuts.

Yeah. Short cuts has more see invis / TS type mobs than Kobold Chaos. Like I said before:
There are creatures there who can see invis or have true seeing already. They just aren't many in number.

[Qaliya]

I did one of each of Short Cuts and Kobold Chaos where I didn't defend any of the extractors and none got below 80% health from start to finish.

[redspecter23]

It sounds to me as though this isn't an exploit at all, but perhaps just a bit of a "hmm, we hadn't considered that" moment for the devs. If it's truly that much easier to finish the quest this way then expect more TS/see invis mobs in future updates or for the extractors to be outright immune.

[Kinerd]

The Turbine employee I was speaking with responded back confirming that the behavior is not WAI. When I asked what that meant in terms of my gameplay, he/she said I should "avoid using invisibility on the crystals".

Not exactly definitive on the "strategy/exploit" question, but clear enough for me and, IMO, for anyone with a sense of fair play. I did some testing before deciding if it was a reasonable strategy or an unreasonable one. What I found was you can activate an extractor, invis the crystal, and then leave, and it will not be touched. That's obviously not what they were going for here.

I asked the individual to post something here or another thread, but no response back on that yet.

In retrospect, this thread was a mistake. I should have just filed a bug report and stopped doing it myself. Although I'm sure word of this would have gotten around eventually anyway.As you yourself have discussed, Qaliya, the challenge system is just not viable currently. Implementing even more barriers to enjoying it would be a mistake, pure and simple.

I also adamantly disagree with the classification of "not WAI", whether yours or the Turbine employee's. Invisibility is absolutely intended to prevent aggro, especially against vision-based attackers and especially when the invisible is stationary. It's an elegant and very DnD solution to tower defense, and I for one will be very disappointed if it's bludgeoned out of existence.

[BoBo2020]

Actually, you are not being creative enough.

Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, Toughen COnstruct, Reinforce Construct, Reconstruct, etc. all have some effect.

This is a situation where experimenting with new uses for spells is a good idea and a lot of fun.

[DocBenway]

Actually, you are not being creative enough.

Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, Toughen COnstruct, Reinforce Construct, Reconstruct, etc. all have some effect.

This is a situation where experimenting with new uses for spells is a good idea and a lot of fun.

I'll honestly say the first thing I did to an activated extractor was Blur it, and extended Displace when it came under attack. If it was damaged I'd hit it with Reconstruct. It was only after these that I thought to myself, well now self, what else might work?

So used to buffing the Madstone giants and Viercha, that the Invis Coyle strat was an afterthought

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So, you are saying that tactics are okay as long as they aren't good enough that every group wants to use those tactics. I disagree, the point of tactics is to gain, in some form (directly or indirectly), an advantage through their use.

If your goal is to stop something from reaching a location, blocking it is a very logical choice.

I've watched enough groups drag every single monster in the dungeon into a room full of firewalls enough times to have a pretty good idea what kind of things should be done away with in this game.

I've seen enough LFMs that said "must have W/P".

"need monk/fvs"

etc....

those kind of things make for a very boring game.

[gloopygloop]

I've watched enough groups drag every single monster in the dungeon into a room full of firewalls enough times to have a pretty good idea what kind of things should be done away with in this game.

I've seen enough LFMs that said "must have W/P".

"need monk/fvs"

etc....

those kind of things make for a very boring game.

I agree. That's why Turbine has been banning players who stand around a boss, just hammering away with weapons while two Clerics/FvS spam Mass Heal and an occasional Mass Cure Moderate at them. Because any tactic that is used 95% of the time in a particular quest is obviously an exploit.

[butlerfamilywa]

Keep in mind, the PnP Groups I run in, don't use 3.5 rules, they work of Orig D&D rules. Nuff said.

[Qaliya]

As you yourself have discussed, Qaliya, the challenge system is just not viable currently. Implementing even more barriers to enjoying it would be a mistake, pure and simple.

If you invis the crystals, you basically cannot lose. You can literally get all the extractors running, invis them, and then AFK until the timer runs out.

When a single, simple step makes failure in a challenge impossible, it's an exploit. Pure and simple.

Turbine won't come out and say this because perhaps they don't want to confirm that the issue exists. And I don't know if they will be patching this on Monday or not. But IMO it's an exploit, and I won't do it.

[Cleric999]

The game takes maybe 200 hours for most people to get all the items they are looking for and has virtually no helpful customer/technical support, even if this is an exploit I think it's pretty trivial.

[redspecter23]

The best way to tell for sure if something is an exploit is to post it in these forums and see if the thread disappears. This thread has been up for multiple days so I can assume that it's not an exploit, but still it's probably not working as the devs intended it. In much the same was that the kobold torch quests aren't working quite the way they intended, though this is to the benefit of the player and not to their detriment. As it has been a valid tactic in the past to invis targets to keep them safer, I'm sure nobody will get banned for this, but I also think it will be changed sooner or later to make it actually challenging again.

[ahpook]

Well then expect TS to all mobs, Turbine deals with thing like this with a shotgun, not a scalpel.


The Turbine employee I was speaking with responded back confirming that the behavior is not WAI. When I asked what that meant in terms of my gameplay, he/she said I should "avoid using invisibility on the crystals".
...

I hope that the turbine person is smart enough to not invalidate the strategy by giving all the mobs true seeing or making the extractor untargettable. TS invalidates strategy and buffs beyond just the extractor problem.

The answer should be to use the listen skill. You have started up a large mining machine. Certainly the mobs in the area should be able to hear it well enough to find it and start damaging it. If one of the mobs is a caster they can cast dispel on it or true seeing once they "realize" its been invis'ed.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Actually, you are not being creative enough.

Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin, Toughen COnstruct, Reinforce Construct, Reconstruct, etc. all have some effect.

This is a situation where experimenting with new uses for spells is a good idea and a lot of fun.

I finaly did this quest..... yep Many types of buffs work. And if I remember correctly, a dev mentioned this before the quest was even released.

But in my experience, "no" buff, not even Invisibility was 100% protection. Although if you managed to clear an area once, it did allow you to not have to worry about that crystal for awhile...

The Horned Devils can See Invis though. At least they saw me with no trouble at all.

Anyway, now that I see the situation....uhmm... no. this is not an exploit.

Perhaps it is something that should be looked at and consider some sort of change maybe. But it's hardly an exploit IMO. (and I'm a hard exploit critic)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I hope that the turbine person is smart enough to not invalidate the strategy by giving all the mobs true seeing or making the extractor untargettable. TS invalidates strategy and buffs beyond just the extractor problem.

The answer should be to use the listen skill. You have started up a large mining machine. Certainly the mobs in the area should be able to hear it well enough to find it and start damaging it. If one of the mobs is a caster they can cast dispel on it or true seeing once they "realize" its been invis'ed.

If they decide this needs changed, then YES!

this is the easiest, best fix imo!

Just have the dang things make noise! problem solved!

[Lifespawn]

If you invis the crystals, you basically cannot lose. You can literally get all the extractors running, invis them, and then AFK until the timer runs out.

When a single, simple step makes failure in a challenge impossible, it's an exploit. Pure and simple.

Turbine won't come out and say this because perhaps they don't want to confirm that the issue exists. And I don't know if they will be patching this on Monday or not. But IMO it's an exploit, and I won't do it.

thats not the case in any runs i've done mostly they don't hit them but they do still get attacked

[Qaliya]

The Horned Devils can See Invis though. At least they saw me with no trouble at all.

The basic Kobold Island one has no horned devils. It's just sahuagin, IIRC, and they do not attack the crystals at all as long as you do not stay near the extractors.

[DocBenway]

The basic Kobold Island one has no horned devils. It's just sahuagin, IIRC, and they do not attack the crystals at all as long as you do not stay near the extractors.

The Pink coloured ones do for sure, As well as most Orange Named critters in there like Scrag. I'm fairly certain select Mudmen also attacked invisible extractors, but did not see that as often as the pink Sahuagin attacking them.

[Cogdoc]

thats not the case in any runs i've done mostly they don't hit them but they do still get attacked

I would like to confirm this. I have made a few runs last week to test this out, not even high level ones where the see invis / true seeing ability would be rather common on mobs. I was running level 7 I believe. Anyway, I run around, made all portals invis, and they still got attacked like up to 50% of the time (when I was unlucky I guess), and got some see invis spawns (caster frogman) or they just hear them and sometimes can actually attack them.

So invis works, but it is not foolproof. I dont view this as an exploit.

Cogdoc

[Deathdefy]

If I had heard of a single person gold starring Disruptor or Short Cuts by invising the crystals, I'd think about considering it naughty. If every pug and his dog was gold starring Kobold Chaos I'd also think it was a bit off.

But they're not.

As it stands, the Kobold Island challenges are by far the hardest group of challenges. Even using invis, we're not coming close to gold starring these challenges (I'm guessing here, but strongly suspect it's the case judging by Shade's Challenges Achievement thread). It's far from game-breakingly OP to semi-reliably get 100 ingredients by invising crystals and still being forced to run about the map like normal between upgrading extractors and collecting mechanical parts.

I think it's more in the camp of the sound tactics like "invis the Seer" than a bit dodgey like "use the fat giant skeletons to block the ramps".

I'm also not 100% certain in-game GMs are always up to speed with the state of the game and dev intentions for newer and even older content.

[paulyne]

it is definately not a "just cast invis and go afk" situation

and i hope they dont change anything (TS for all mobs or something like that).. i just hate it when they 'fix' quests until we run them _exactly_ like they think we should..

yesterday we ran monastary in reavers refuge and that is one quest that got fixed until it is now quasi broke, you cant jump anywhere without bizarr graphics appearing or mobs vanishing. just because someone thought some barriers were needed... new invasion got fixed a few times and people stil use the old blade method. this is just dev time spend on non-issues

and if some players think it is boring to run a quest a certain way: then dont. no one is forcing you to use it. if you see lfms that require you to have a certain spell for a quest: dont join, make your own lfm

[BoBo2020]

If you invis the crystals, you basically cannot lose. You can literally get all the extractors running, invis them, and then AFK until the timer runs out.

When a single, simple step makes failure in a challenge impossible, it's an exploit. Pure and simple.

I understand you feel strongly about this, but this statement is not accurate.

I have run this quest many times. Invisibility helps (especially at lower difficulties where it should help). But on higher difficulties, the extractors do get attacked.

Sorry - not an exploit. Good use of spells (and clickies).

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The basic Kobold Island one has no horned devils. It's just sahuagin, IIRC, and they do not attack the crystals at all as long as you do not stay near the extractors.

I think Short Cuts is the one I did. The lvl 20 version.

There were red named Horned Devils near the Large Extracter. They definately saw me while I was Invisible. So I also assume they could see the crystal.

I saw lots of Invisible Crystals still getting attacked. But the one crystal I was careful to not get seen at, did seem safe for a very long time. Several monsters walked near it and did not attack it.

Most people in groups are not very careful. They activate extracters when monsters can see them, and let monsters chase them near enough so that the monsters become aware of the crystals.

I can see how someone who is careful though, could effectively eliminate any threat to the crystals with Invisibility.



I think the crystals should make noise.
Easy fix.
Still allows Invisibility to be of some use, but any monster getting close enough will hear it, investigate, and attack.
problem solved.

[LordPiglet]

From my experience, invis only works on the small extractors. Even if you invis the large ones, they still seem to get attacked.

[Qaliya]

I understand you feel strongly about this, but this statement is not accurate.

It is entirely accurate. As long as you invis the extractors and then move away from them, you're guaranteed a win. I literally saw mobs standing right next to the extractors refusing to attack them. That's broken.

http://www.desktopscenes.com/misc/koboldchaos.jpg

This was done on the highest setting for regular Kobold Chaos, level 15. Notice the 1,400+ dragonshards with a minute to go, and all four extractors at 100%. This despite the fact that I spent the previous 8 minutes before this screenshot was taken with my character standing on the boat while reading the forums. During that time not one mob touched any of these extractors. Or me!

I recalled after taking the shot, btw. I don't want "rewards" for something this easy. Even if Turbine, for whatever reason, refuses to fix it.

[smatt]

If you invis the crystals, you basically cannot lose. You can literally get all the extractors running, invis them, and then AFK until the timer runs out.

When a single, simple step makes failure in a challenge impossible, it's an exploit. Pure and simple.

Turbine won't come out and say this because perhaps they don't want to confirm that the issue exists. And I don't know if they will be patching this on Monday or not. But IMO it's an exploit, and I won't do it.


LOL, oh come on you're using a valid and rather common tactic.... Invisibility... It is NOT an "Exploit". It's likely just a perfectly legal tactic the Devs over looked. If it were, than usign Invisibilty anywhere in the game woudl be an exploit..

And people wonder what is and isn't an exploit.. THIS clearly isn't one... As to why they dont' anser int hsi thread... Time.... They don't read every thread ont he forums... #1 it would take 10 people to do that.. And would likely lead to a whole lot of disability leave for visits to therapists and pharmacy... :rolleyes: :D

[Qaliya]

And people wonder what is and isn't an exploit.. THIS clearly isn't one...

Based on what is this "clearly" not an exploit?

It's a single, simple step that makes what is supposed to be challenging content utterly broken -- impossible to fail. It's confirmed as not WAI. How is it not an exploit to keep using it?



As to why they dont' anser int hsi thread... Time.... They don't read every thread ont he forums... #1 it would take 10 people to do that.. And would likely lead to a whole lot of disability leave for visits to therapists and pharmacy... :rolleyes: :D

You obviously haven't read the discussion. They did see the thread and I was in contact with a Turbine person privately already.

[HarveyMilk]

Definitely not an exploit. I have seen some mobs still attack invisible crystals. Large extractors are too big for invis to help. Lots of reasons this is not an exploit. This is a good strategy.

[balancetraveller]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=351457

[Cyr]

Based on what is this "clearly" not an exploit?


Common sense.

Something working well does not define an exploit. Something that ACTUALLY BREAKS PATHING OR AI is. If casting invisibility actually made it so that mobs would go inactive and you could hit them them as they sat there inactive yes that would be an exploit.

This right here is the reason why the dumb and often repeated statement of "If you have to ask it is an exploit" is just plain wrong. Lots of players believe lots of things are exploits. Lots of those things people think are exploits are not.

When you have had people saying having a monk in party is an exploit or jumping through a firewall is an exploit you either reject this logic that players know what exploits are automatically or you suspend rational thought.

[Chaos000]

Considering how fast the extractors get taken down, I don't know how you'd otherwise get all five stars

[Qaliya]

Something working well does not define an exploit. Something that ACTUALLY BREAKS PATHING OR AI is. If casting invisibility actually made it so that mobs would go inactive and you could hit them them as they sat there inactive yes that would be an exploit.

The mobs are there specifically to attack the extractors. After you invis the extractors they will not attack them.

At all. As long as you don't stand next to the small extractors, they are immune. Look at the screenshot: 100% health.

While doing that test run I first went around and activated all four extractors at tier 1. Then I went around a second time to upgrade them. When I did so, I found several mobs standing literally right next to the extractors refusing to attack them.

The mobs were effectively made inactive, and the result was a "challenge" that was anything but. The entire premise behind it was broken by this one step that any low-level caster can do.

By your own definitions, using this is an exploit, no matter how much people want to try to convince themselves otherwise.

[smatt]

Based on what is this "clearly" not an exploit?

It's a single, simple step that makes what is supposed to be challenging content utterly broken -- impossible to fail. It's confirmed as not WAI. How is it not an exploit to keep using it? The use it till they fix it... Or don't.. It's THEIR broken quest, and using invisibilty on something is within normal game guidlines.




You obviously haven't read the discussion. They did see the thread and I was in contact with a Turbine person privately already.


Nope, just as with normal people there's simply no time to read the entirety of every post in every thread.

The list is so long on issues like this from the past 5 years I've been playing this game nearly every day...... Don't obsess over it, if they know about it, and considering it NOT WAI... They will fix it... When they get around to it...

[Hokiewa]

The mobs are there specifically to attack the extractors. After you invis the extractors they will not attack them.

At all. As long as you don't stand next to the small extractors, they are immune. Look at the screenshot: 100% health.

While doing that test run I first went around and activated all four extractors at tier 1. Then I went around a second time to upgrade them. When I did so, I found several mobs standing literally right next to the extractors refusing to attack them.

The mobs were effectively made inactive, and the result was a "challenge" that was anything but. The entire premise behind it was broken by this one step that any low-level caster can do.

By your own definitions, using this is an exploit, no matter how much people want to try to convince themselves otherwise.

We get what you are trying to say. However, with history as a precedent, this is not an exploit. This thread would not have existed this long if it was.

It may come under the guise of not "WAI" but it's pretty clear that it is not exploit.

[Chaos000]

The mobs were effectively made inactive, and the result was a "challenge" that was anything but. The entire premise behind it was broken.

By your own definitions, using this is an exploit, no matter how much people want to try to convince themselves otherwise.

Mobs are only inactive if there is nobody near the extractor. Using invisibility then leaving extractor with the intention of triggering this would be the exploit.

Using invisibility for the 50% miss chance it provides while guarding it when a crystal is being attacked is a viable tactic.

[Kinerd]

If you invis the crystals, you basically cannot lose. You can literally get all the extractors running, invis them, and then AFK until the timer runs out.

When a single, simple step makes failure in a challenge impossible, it's an exploit. Pure and simple.This is true, but it is not the whole story. Work has to be put in to clear the extractors initially: invis only prevents aggro, it does not clear it, and the monsters are happy to stand around next to extractors waiting for you to upgrade them. Additionally, for the best scores/rewards you have to start (and therefore clear) the large extractors, which is not a trivial matter.

I would compare it to the single, simple step of escorting Arlos out of the dungeon. It is only simple so long as you've put in the work to clear out every monster within his enormous aggro range - I see that as a good thing! We should reward the players that use a cautious, thoughtful plan (that breaks none of the rules of DDO). It may have been the intent of the designers that we were to chase around defending Arlos from continuous assault, but it is not a problem if we have found a better solution (again, so long as we are playing within the rules).
The mobs were effectively made inactive, and the result was a "challenge" that was anything but. The entire premise behind it was broken by this one step that any low-level caster can do.They weren't made unresponsive, and that's the key for being an exploit. Had a visible target walked by, they would have happily aggroed on it. Their hands can't hit what their eyes can't see.
As it stands, the Kobold Island challenges are by far the hardest group of challenges. Even using invis, we're not coming close to gold starring these challenges (I'm guessing here, but strongly suspect it's the case judging by Shade's Challenges Achievement thread). It's far from game-breakingly OP to semi-reliably get 100 ingredients by invising crystals and still being forced to run about the map like normal between upgrading extractors and collecting mechanical parts.It is literally impossible to gold star Short Cuts unless you buy time from the store. With that said, I think for most people the vague benefits of slightly more favor and exp are vastly outweighed by the concrete benefits of more ingredients. Relative to other challenges, it's quite easy to get KI ingredients with the invis strategy, especially solo. This doesn't necessarily mean that the invis strategy should be hammered, of course.