Melees, what is missing for healers?

[DeafeningWhisper]

We regularly see posts on how healers have it hard and it's usually all healers stating what they want, but I don't think I've seen one where melees try to fix the healers problems, what do you guys think we need?

Personally I can't stand playing a straight up melee, unless he can cast, self-heal or have 2 bars full of actives I get bored really fast so I wouldn't know what it's like to need someone around to keep me alive.

I would really want to know how melees see our problems for once.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Well, if we could obtain a meaningful AC without rare and hard to acquire equipment, that would be a start...

[giggiddy]

Meaninful AC isn't meaningful unless it means something in epics. And to get a good AC (90+) and adequate DPS it requires to be very well geared.

I just want AC to matter in epics. Getting hit on a 15+ I am ok with if you have good AC... getting hit on every swing with sustainable 90 AC I am not ok with.

[der_kluge]

Meaninful AC isn't meaningful unless it means something in epics. And to get a good AC (90+) and adequate DPS it requires to be very well geared.

I just want AC to matter in epics. Getting hit on a 15+ I am ok with if you have good AC... getting hit on every swing with sustainable 90 AC I am not ok with.

Gear doesn't even really matter. In order to get to a 90+ AC, you pretty much require monk levels and/or paladin levels. You'd have a hard time convincing me a straight-up fighter could actually achieve a 90 AC.

[In_Like_Flynn]

A quick glance over the shoulder to make sure the healer is with you before diving into the pit with the kobolds.

[teh_meh]

Here are some tips for melees to make life easier for your healer.

1. situational awareness - stay with the heals. Mass heal is the best SP bang for the buck. don't make the healer chase you down with single targets. don't expect him/her to constantly do that throughout the raid.

2. use your clickies! Stoneskin FTW!

3. don't be a bunch of aholes ripping agro off each other. Let one tank get set-up with hate or intim. on the boss

4. If you are a WF, you **** well better have *some* amp. WF with zero amp? No excuse for that with the enhancements and gear currently available in the game.

5. be aware of things that might block a heal from arriving. Healers sometimes struggle with their various timers. And if you jut around a corner with 10% health left with an epic mob on your tail, you deserve your death.

6. Even if the heals are bad, don't blame the healer. Healing is a confidence game. The person might be learning and is prolly under stress to take care of y'all. If you crush his/her confidence, they'll be less inclined to help in the future.

[ReaperAlexEU]

there is a lot a glass cannon melee can do to ease the healing burden by just playing smart and also by brining some resources of their own to the party. i learnt the game on a glass cannon and i was forever dreading being seen as a mana hole. but with good situational awareness and a good team mind i've managed to learn my trade as a melee to help kill fast without racking up a massive healing bill.

since then i've moved on to play more self reliant builds, i'm particularly fond of heal scroll capable melee's as they are able to not only take care of them selves but others too.

i do think damage mitigation from the build its self is too hard to get thanks to the d20 rule set. the dev's do have to make the power gamers sweat, which means a variance of 20 isnt enough to cope with power gamers and casual gamers. so maybe moving the whole AC system to the double d20 they have done for epic trash would help?

if we can have powergamers with strong AC builds mitigating 90-95% of all melee dmg, while still allowing casual gamers to mitigate a few percentage for each point of AC they get then we might be onto a winner. as it stands a few points of AC to a casual gamer has literally 0% mitigation.

as for the healers them selves, there is a lot to learn about playing a healer, things like SP efficiency arnt obvious to all, neither is the potency/devotion gear they should be hunting for. a lot of it is just training, and any healers coming to the forums asking for help generally get several pages of great advice. it's a shame there are many others who don't know their job can be easier when armed with the right knowledge. korthos does a great job of introducing our newbies to the game, but there are also some huge gaps in the training. things like the LFM screen should be taught and maybe how to make the best use of your healing spells should be chopped up into bite sized pieces for our budding healers when they get to the harbour.

[PNellesen]

It's simple, really: be as self-sufficient as you possibly can, carry the appropriate "ward" item for the content you're going to run (Deathblock, Disease Immunity, Proof against Poison, etc.) or ask what's needed if you aren't sure, and don't expect the healers to follow you through traps or into the next room or around the corner.

Nice to haves: Buy raise dead scrolls, heal scrolls, other scrolls/wands/potions and keep them in your pack. You may not be able to use them, but you can always pass them to someone who can. Anything you can do to reduce the amount of SP the Divines have to use will always be appreciated (take it from someone who mainly plays Clerics ;) )

[oweieie]

We regularly see posts on how healers have it hard and it's usually all healers stating what they want, but I don't think I've seen one where melees try to fix the healers problems, what do you guys think we need?

Arcanes to pull their head out of their ass, stop casting blur/displace just on themselves and to buff the party.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I have some AC ideas

45+ AC = gets you the max of 75% miss chance on norm
60+ AC = max of 50% miss chance on hard
75+ AC = max of 40% miss chance on elite
90+ AC = max of 33% miss chance on epic

That way you have workable AC without been untouchable at lower difficulties.

[Gremmlynn]

Here are some tips for melees to make life easier for your healer.

1. situational awareness - stay with the heals. Mass heal is the best SP bang for the buck. don't make the healer chase you down with single targets. don't expect him/her to constantly do that throughout the raid.

2. use your clickies! Stoneskin FTW!

3. don't be a bunch of aholes ripping agro off each other. Let one tank get set-up with hate or intim. on the boss

4. If you are a WF, you **** well better have *some* amp. WF with zero amp? No excuse for that with the enhancements and gear currently available in the game.

5. be aware of things that might block a heal from arriving. Healers sometimes struggle with their various timers. And if you jut around a corner with 10% health left with an epic mob on your tail, you deserve your death.

6. Even if the heals are bad, don't blame the healer. Healing is a confidence game. The person might be learning and is prolly under stress to take care of y'all. If you crush his/her confidence, they'll be less inclined to help in the future.Situational awareness goes both ways. Standing in a group for those efficient mass heals/bursts is great if that group is moving from priority target to priority target. Nothing burns my backside more than a healer complaining about me bouncing from caster to caster rather than standing next to him beating on the meat shields. Those choosing to play the healer role should be positioning themselves to cover as much of the battle area as possible.

[Vellrad]

Arcanes to pull their head out of their ass, stop casting blur/displace just on themselves and to buff the party.

Don't sit like a **** princess, SAY you need a buff.

[ReaperAlexEU]

hmm, tips for glass cannons...

if there seems to be another melee in group better suited to taking the aggro, let them take the lead. this will often be a vet but you'll get a feel for who is the most solid front liner after a fight or two.

when playing the off tank try to avoid getting aggro, hit the same target the main tank is, but try not to get surrounded by mobs. when you start fighting devils you'll also have to avoid being in front of any mobs as they do cleaving attacks that hit all in a front facing arc.

let the main tank get spotted first, and let them get their hits in first. this roughly translates to just being a few steps behind the main tank when you charge into battle.

at lvl12-14 try to buy a paralysing weapon. it doesnt have to be the best type or have the best effects, it just has to be a paralyser. yes this will reduce your DPS, but on a well built melee this wont slow you down much. paralysers are an excellent source of mana free crowd control (as are your trips, use them!) and at lvl12-14 the price should have dropped a lot to meet your budget (the lvl10 and even 8 ones cost a frickin fortune!).

kill casters first, those kobold shamen, they have to die! no i dont care if the whole kobold race will forever remember you as a slayer of kobolds, they really do have to die. later on when our casters get insta kill spells you might find your self in a situation where the casters die before you reach them, this is a good thing, it lets you go back to fighting trash mobs, but you should go back to prioritising the casters in the next group until its clear your not needed for that role. also be aware that insta kill spells have a cool down, so if its a fight with a ton of casters you might still be needed on anti-caster duty.

while intimidate wont help your average melee come end game when your running raids/epics or with a crack team of vets, it really can save lives on the trip to lvl20 when you'r playing with lots of newbies. so if you can consider maxing out intimidate and using it to pull aggro off any one squishier than you.

expect life to get harder in the last half of the game. due to historical reasons there are some large jumps in the difficulty curve as you progress through the last half of the game (for those interested its due to the old level caps). so make sure you focus on having a large buffer of hit points and heavy fortification to make you immune to crits. this goes for every character regardless of type, the game really does change and what might have worked in the early game can stop working later on.

one main thing that breaks down is armour class, early on even a barbarian can get some use from AC, come mid game most builds will find they might as well be running about naked for all the difference a few points of AC makes. making an AC tank is very hard work, if thats your thing follow a solid build, expect to have to grind a lot and expect the build to rely on tomes to hit certain water marks for feats etc. for the rest just go with the flow, HP and DPS will become more important than AC.

try to build up a rack of pots. i'm sure you can find posts on these forums listing 101 pots you can/must/should carry, dont be intimidated, see it as a long term shopping list. healing pots are the first to go for, then probably resistance pots. you'll be amazed how much difference necking a pot of acid resistance makes after a trog hits you with melphs acid. you might also notice healers take better care of you if they see you trying to help with the healing bill. who would you heal? the guy getting hit by everything that then sprints off to the next fight half dead, or the other guy who tries not to get surrounded and drinks a few healing pots between fights. acid anf fire are great early on. cold is good come gianthold as some casters will have ice shield up (does cold dmg each time you hit them). curse is essential for some later raids and also very hand when fighting clay golumns or any thing else that can do a healing curse on you.

but above all, never be afraid to ask a question. i've been playing for 5 years now and i'm still learning things about the game. there are those i constantly pester for advice and those i constantly help out with advice. so dont be afraid to ask if there is a better way to do something. sometimes you'll get bad advice, sometimes the advice will be good but wont seem it at the time. if you dont ask though you might never realise something that might seem so obvious once its pointed out. we all think differently, so take advantage of you fellow players different brain and learn all you can from them.

[in4theride75]

Arcanes to pull their head out of their ass, stop casting blur/displace just on themselves and to buff the party.

Considering displacement without extend is not worth casting on more than 1 or 2 people, almost no one has extend, blur has become quite unwelcome by a lot of players due to effect procs, many items have blur or ghostly, or dusk, etc. it is better for a person to ask for a very specific buff and not get mad if a caster says no or doesn't have it.


As far as what healers can do for melee, I'd say communication would be key. Explain to the melee your healing style, what you expect from them as far as movement behavior, and let them know if they are running corners too fast. As far as I'm aware, 90% of the problems with healing are from people running corners or staying out of range of a mass if you are a mass caster.

[jkm]

Gear doesn't even really matter. In order to get to a 90+ AC, you pretty much require monk levels and/or paladin levels. You'd have a hard time convincing me a straight-up fighter could actually achieve a 90 AC.

The biggest problem is that the devs are a horrible GM. When something is horribly broken, they need to disallow it like ANY reasonable GM would do.

For example, 6 months before monk came out Illuminati posted his "Iron Monk" exploiter-like build showing him getting a sustained 80 AC. Up until Monks were released a 65 was considered awesome so it was evident that AC was going to be blown out of the water. As a matter of a fact, one of the devs even posted in the thread so they KNEW it was coming.

At that point, if you were really intent on balancing the game, you'd step back and either limit Monk Wisdom to AC (max +1 per Monk Level) or revise the entire D20 to hit system to work with the monty haul nature of DDO. Instead They just released it as is and then scaled up mob to hit to compensate which hurt other classes MUCH more than it did the Monk splashes.

[Postumus]

We regularly see posts on how healers have it hard and it's usually all healers stating what they want, but I don't think I've seen one where melees try to fix the healers problems, what do you guys think we need?

Personally I can't stand playing a straight up melee, unless he can cast, self-heal or have 2 bars full of actives I get bored really fast so I wouldn't know what it's like to need someone around to keep me alive.

I would really want to know how melees see our problems for once.

I think most melees would be happy if they could map your heal spells to their hotbar. It would be a lot faster than having to keep typing "heal me!"

[Rawel_San]

Looking from the point of end game, both on my tank('s) and my healer, Heal amp is right now
a huge winner. Having healed a number of tod's ranging from norm to elite high heal amp tanks
are da bomb. If you can scroll the tank for 70%+ of their hit points even no ac tanks are easy to keep up.
Have had a 350% heal ap tank do elite horoth with only about 670hps and was a breeze ended up with 3/4
of bar since I was a bit afraid to dot not knowing how it would go. If you can add ac into the mix it's a beauty.

For epic's heal amp plus the new damage mitigation from shield feats+ blocking when you can makes even
eLoB mostly scroll healable with the right tank, also with 200+ heal amp getting 400 hp back from silver flame
or 200 from lesser silver flame can help out quite a bit when things start going south. I have seen builds
that get over 600 hp back from the big pot and still keep enough hate+dps to tank. Very nice.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

We regularly see posts on how healers have it hard and it's usually all healers stating what they want, but I don't think I've seen one where melees try to fix the healers problems, what do you guys think we need?

Personally I can't stand playing a straight up melee, unless he can cast, self-heal or have 2 bars full of actives I get bored really fast so I wouldn't know what it's like to need someone around to keep me alive.

I would really want to know how melees see our problems for once.

Well, I play melees and healers. So I'm not either/or. Am I allowed to comment?

Oh, P.S. - my melee toons don't need "someone around to keep them alive".

[voodoogroves]

Arcanes to pull their head out of their ass, stop casting blur/displace just on themselves and to buff the party.

Is this just blame shifting?

[transtemporal]

Kill casters first. Kill stuff quickly. Have healing amp. Have a decent amount of hp. Manage aggro. Trust the healer. If the party is having a hard time in a quest, fight mobs in cc and/or area dot, gang up on one mob at a time, stick together. If you're a tank, be able to hold aggro against anything, including casters.

Everything else optional. Buffs optional. Heals optional. Traps optional.

[Aashrym]

Is this just blame shifting?

Shifting the focus to the casters not doing their part is no different than shifting the focus to the melees for running off. Sometimes it really is the healer's fault too. The end result is still the same. The team fails, not just a few individuals. ;)

Asking casters to provide those buffs isn't so much playing the blame game as it is coming up with a solution to help resolve it. The wording could have been better in the previous post tho.

Generally speaking, a lot of players can help contribute to the success more than they do regardless of class.

[Elaril]

The only thing that's actually missing for healers is a mechanic that locks out all classes other than healing classes until players have leveled at least one healing class to cap. The only reason that people don't generally play their healers in unknown groups is because they have been burnt by people who have played very poorly and were a drain on the healer's resources. If everyone were required to level a healer first, they would get a better understanding of what actions other players perform that are a drain, and would eliminate these from their own when they leveled and played other classes.

[Firesmall_at]

Take Toughness feat. That goes for wizs and socs too. Take Racial toughness 1 ASAP. Take toughness enhancements 1-2 if u want to live
CON minimum 12-14. 12 for elfs/drows. Invest up to 2 Stat points Per CON point always. Maybe more. No less.


If your going to evenually take toughness in your build (and it seems to be the norm now) take it early. It adds 30-50% to your hitpoints at lower lvls and 10-20% at higher levels.

Take Heavy fortification ASAP lvl10-11.

Take Moderate fortification ASAP lvl5-6.

So u will not be a one shot kill due to a critical hit.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Take Toughness feat. That goes for wizs and socs too. Take Racial toughness 1 ASAP. Take toughness enhancements 1-2 if u want to live
CON minimum 12-14. 12 for elfs/drows. Invest up to 2 Stat points Per CON point always. Maybe more. No less.


If your going to evenually take toughness in your build (and it seems to be the norm now) take it early. It adds 30-50% to your hitpoints at lower lvls and 10-20% at higher levels.

Take Heavy fortification ASAP lvl10-11.

Take Moderate fortification ASAP lvl5-6.

So u will not be a one shot kill due to a critical hit.

At lvl, anyone getting 2 shot gets 2 ress (unlucky aggro grabbing or multiple spells hitting at once, **** happens) after that it's backpack rides to shrines. Many healers have this as a rule, not just me.

[grodon9999]

AC doesn't always work and some builds can't get anything meaningful anyway, let's focus on stuff that can ALWAYS work regardless of the content or build.

HP and healing amp ALWAYS work. Get some, your first ToD ring should be 20% healing amp, it's more important than +2 to any stat on a melee.

And for the love of all that's holy . . . don't neglect your saves!!! This is HUGE damage mitigation and I see too many pathetic 800+ HP meatbags get hit for full on every AoE and nearly die while a 500 HP evasion toon walks by with no damage. Wear a +6 DEX item, slot in Resist 5 somewhere, divines should keep holy aura and recitation up on the party. Even if you don't have evasion making your reflex save is huge compared to failing it. Most of the big-hits in this game have a save, it's better to take half damage than the full monty.

Regarding the arcanes not buffing anymore . . . I see this way too often. Everyone should be blurred and GH'd at a minimum. Try to get your own if this is possible to save some SP.

Have SOME means of hjealing yourself that's stronger than CSW pots. If you don't have UMD or your own-blue bar Silverflame pots are a huge benefit and can save you when things get really rough.

Have some means of raising dead.

Have the general protection thingies . . . 10-Charge Silver flame necklace . . . heavy fort . . . etc . . . Resist pots in-case of deaths.

Know your limitations, if you aren't ready for some content that's fine, it'll still be there when you are. My general benchmark for "epic ready" is if Elite IQ is a joke for your group you're ready for epic. Work your way up and don't jump into Epic LoB the second you hit level 20.

Actually be able to do DPS. With the Cannith Crafting we have there is NO EXCUSE for not having +4 Holy of Bane DR-breaking weapons, its takes maybe 6 hours worth of crafting to get to the point of making that and others can make the un-bound shards for you. At least tier II GS weapons for trash, tier III Lightnings are ideal.

Consider what you're willing to commit to your build in the long run before building it. I say this because of the THFing/TWFing thing. THFing is noticeably behind unless you have and Epic SoS and that's VERY hard to get (200+ dragons and I can make 1). Once you get the ESoS you're a DPS-god, but it's major delayed gratification. I know people who've literally lost their sanity in pursuit of this weapon, if you're not willing to commit to that grind you should strongly consider TWFing.

GET YOUR TO-HIT UP! You don't do any DPS if you can't hit your target. This is critical, ToD sets boost this as well as either Cannith crafted +2/+4 Competance bonus. beat down the dummy on your airship but don't keep people waiting on you.

Be able to manage your threat. Somethings it's just easier to heal somebody else who has less DPS that you, you can't always be the start of the show.

[grodon9999]

More stuff . . .

tactics! if you're a fighter/barb/monk you better be tripping/stunning/sundering the heck out of stuff. You can be awesome for this, be awesome. Stunned/tripped targets don't hit back, sundered bosses die faster. All of this helps the healers.

Rangers/paladins - if you aren't building for good blue-bar healing you are building your toons wrong. Get some healing amp, take Maximize, get some gear for more SP and Superior Ardor IV pots from House J. 200+ CSW are huge and are a great way to make up for your lack of HP/DPS compared to kensais and barbs and keep yourself alive when the healer is around a corner. Generally you won't have the HP buffer of a fighter/barb and watching yourself relieves a huge part of the healers burden. Of course in raids when you're getting spam-cured madstone and hulk-out like everyone else.


Stupid UMD tricks:

- Displacement scrolls: Most individual fights are less than 30 seconds long, the length of a displacement scroll. Pop the scroll right before you run into a gaggle of mobs and usually they'll be dead before the scroll runs out. Rinse, repeat, profit. The caster should cast a longer displace on you when tanking final bosses but for the rest of the time 20-second scrolls are enough and are VERY effective.

- If you're not full BaB Divine power scroll fix this. They are cheap and last over a minute. every point of to-hit counts.

- Recitation wands/scrolls: I'm a big fan of this buff even when AC doesn't work. Not everyone has +2 luck slotted 24/7 so the saves bonus is great as well as a +2 luck bonus to-hit. You can never have too high saves or too much to-hit. A divine should keep this on people but you can't count on people in pugs.

- Fireshield mitigate a lot of damage, too good not to use.

[Sarisa]

divines should keep holy aura and recitation up on the party. Even if you don't have evasion making your reflex save is huge compared to failing it.

Just note that the devs really screwed up Holy Aura with u12. You must now make a Spell Pen check against party members in order to give them a beneficial buff. With an Epic Torc and the Spell Pen feat, I still have a 25% chance of failure in trying to give a Monk or Drow the Holy Aura buff.

[Orratti]

Incentive. That is what is missing. Casters of any type have little incentive to group period. The incentive that is there is to help out friends or to have some friendly company so they have someone to talk to while soloing.

You really want them to join your pug this is how it could be done.

1. Be friendly. I mean everyone on every server. That way evey group you ever join you're meeting gobs of new friends. If that were the case how could anyone stand to solo and miss out on all the fun.

2. Don't need them. That's right. If you don't need them at all there is absolutely no pressure on them ever. Allowing them to relax and have fun playing.

3. Make hirelings the greatest HEALERS out there. Johnny on the spot with exactly the right heal everytime to get you and the rest of the party right back to full health while still conserving mana. Give them a few decent offensive spells that are easy for a hireling/hireling player to use. Soundburst, cometfall, destruction, summon earth elementals, greater command and actually have those hireling use those spells instead of throwing out a searing light or some other weak spell that isn't even listed. Give them a decent spot and have them stop at traps and avoid the melee and drawing aggro. That way when a divine caster joins your group once again they can relax and have fun playing.

It may seem as if these are sarcastic and well, they are, but I promise you if you do these things those divine casters will come crawling out of the woodwork. If the devs were to just do #3 it would become a complete non issue anyway.

Playing a divine caster is just an awesome amount of fun, until you get into a PUG or group with a single person who will give you attitude over his health bar or several people who will dive into situations where the damage they begin taking outruns the amount of healing you can throw out there. At low levels it is rediculous how quickly you run out of sps and then are expected to continue healing off of your own dime. Even throwing wands for most of your healing and saving sps for emergencies or to cc the hard monsters in order to save those sps many times you will still get tapped out by the situations they get themselves into.

Skill levels for divine casters vary greatly. Those developing their skills are completely abused. Those with average or above average skills are those recognized as good healers. Those at the top of their skills are never seen by anyone outside of their guild usually unless it's way across the map after joining their group so you can catch up in time to loot the chests.