Deadly Weapons scrolls?

[itraylor]

I know Deadly Weapons is supposedly fixed but has anyone seen a scroll drop or heard any confirmation on rather they are/are not dropping? I have read that even lesser TRing does not allow picking new spells. I would rather not have to TR right now just to get the spell. Any information is welcome. Thanks!

Ian

[firegood]

I know Deadly Weapons is supposedly fixed but has anyone seen a scroll drop or heard any confirmation on rather they are/are not dropping? I have read that even lesser TRing does not allow picking new spells. I would rather not have to TR right now just to get the spell. Any information is welcome. Thanks!

Ian

I have seen no evidence of scrolls in the game yet sadly. Although I was able to pick it up from trainer on level up, but it still doesn't work with ranged weapons, lol. Great implementation right?

[Dandonk]

Any already capped artis have gotten the short end of the stick, it seems.

[itraylor]

I wonder if I TR and grab a level of fighter or something, then a couple of days later grab the Artificer level back would I be able to grab it. Think this would work? I need 20 Shrouds before I TR this toon and still need 10 more or so.

Ian

[Backley]

I wonder if I TR and grab a level of fighter or something, then a couple of days later grab the Artificer level back would I be able to grab it. Think this would work? I need 20 Shrouds before I TR this toon and still need 10 more or so.

Ian

No, won't work. Even if the LR gets you access to a spell level for the first time, it still doesn't offer you spells on level up.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I wonder if I TR and grab a level of fighter or something, then a couple of days later grab the Artificer level back would I be able to grab it. Think this would work? I need 20 Shrouds before I TR this toon and still need 10 more or so.

Ian

And so turbines nefarious plan is revealed: Lesser Hearts sales spike as Artificers desperately try to access the Deadly Weapons spell!

[firegood]

And so turbines nefarious plan is revealed: Lesser Hearts sales spike as Artificers desperately try to access the Deadly Weapons spell!

And when they realize it doesn't work for themselves, buy true hearts to TR into barbarians and ask for deadly weapons on their eSOS. Brilliant work Turbine.

[Zogdor]

Awesome! So those of us who paid good money to purchase the Artificer class are now being punished for doing so because we can't get one of our most powerful spells. Wow, what a great way to reward people and show gratitude for their custom!

[Eladrin]

I know Deadly Weapons is supposedly fixed
The Deadly Weapons spell was not intended to go out with U12. There are still some problems with it that haven't been resolved. When it's officially released, scrolls will be added to treasure tables.

[Superspeed_Hi5]

The Deadly Weapons spell was not intended to go out with U12. There are still some problems with it that haven't been resolved. When it's officially released, scrolls will be added to treasure tables.

Yea like working on monk wraps? Cause it definitely doesnt work for monks.

[Calebro]

Yea like working on monk wraps? Cause it definitely doesnt work for monks.

Even if they get DW working correctly, it should not work on wraps.
Handwraps aren't weapons. Handwraps are enchanted bits of cloth. They are not dangerous at all in and of themselves. What they do is supplement the user's own ability to deal damage with their bodies.
Do handwraps have a damage die listed? Nope. Because handwraps are not weapons.
This is the reason that handwraps work differently from other weapons. They work differently than other weapons because they aren't actually weapons at all.

What an Artificer does is he changes the properties of a magic item with a bit of *tinkering* which allows those items to create slightly different effects. He cannot *tinker* with your hands and feet, and your specialty with your body is what creates the damage. Not the wraps. The wraps only supplement what can already be done.

You cannot double the damage dice of handwraps because handwraps don't have any damage dice to double.
Deadly Weapons certainly should not work on wraps.

[Helexax]

Even if they get DW working correctly, it should not work on wraps.
Handwraps aren't weapons. Handwraps are enchanted bits of cloth. They are not dangerous at all in and of themselves. What they do is supplement the user's own ability to deal damage with their bodies.
Do handwraps have a damage die listed? Nope. Because handwraps are not weapons.
This is the reason that handwraps work differently from other weapons. They work differently than other weapons because they aren't actually weapons at all.

What an Artificer does is he changes the properties of a magic item with a bit of *tinkering* which allows those items to create slightly different effects. He cannot *tinker* with your hands and feet, and your specialty with your body is what creates the damage. Not the wraps. The wraps only supplement what can already be done.

You cannot double the damage dice of handwraps because handwraps don't have any damage dice to double.
Deadly Weapons certainly should not work on wraps.

This is DDO, real world logic should not apply, the reason it NEEDS to work on wraps is that of balance, if monks are unaffected by deadly weapons why would you ever want to bring a monk over a fighter / barb to a raid?

and if your main concern is "tinkering" with hands and feet, roll a WF monk instead :)

[Alexandryte]

Even if they get DW working correctly, it should not work on wraps.
Handwraps aren't weapons. Handwraps are enchanted bits of cloth. They are not dangerous at all in and of themselves. What they do is supplement the user's own ability to deal damage with their bodies.
Do handwraps have a damage die listed? Nope. Because handwraps are not weapons.
This is the reason that handwraps work differently from other weapons. They work differently than other weapons because they aren't actually weapons at all.

What an Artificer does is he changes the properties of a magic item with a bit of *tinkering* which allows those items to create slightly different effects. He cannot *tinker* with your hands and feet, and your specialty with your body is what creates the damage. Not the wraps. The wraps only supplement what can already be done.

You cannot double the damage dice of handwraps because handwraps don't have any damage dice to double.
Deadly Weapons certainly should not work on wraps.


Incorrect assessment of a game mechanic and trying to make it a lore reason.

The reason wraps do not have a damage die attached is that monks are supposed to be superior at using hand based attacks. The only way to make it so monks are the premier martial arts specialist is to take the damage die and give it back WITHIN the class itself.

This has the side effect of having handwraps augment physical blows from ones fist, rather than have them do damage in their own right (which is part of how they work on the backend).

Handwraps receiving DW are no different wraps targeted for adamantine, coldiron, silver, or planar weapons. Monks add to their damage and to-hit via feats in the same manner as any other class.

Why would Deadly Weapons be any different of any infusion other than you just don't want it to be? Augmenting by magical means is augmenting by magical means is augmenting by magical means. There is no difference.

[Chauncey1]

I found a DW scroll right after I'd leveled and selected the spell at 18. (ain't that always the way?)
I gave it to my friend who is also an arti.
I didn't think they were that rare, just another scroll I can't use.

[Elaril]

Why would Deadly Weapons be any different of any infusion other than you just don't want it to be?

Because handwraps have no associated damage die, all other weapons do. You cannot add another die step to an item that has none.

[Backley]

Because handwraps have no associated damage die, all other weapons do. You cannot add another die step to an item that has none.

1. Alchemical Byeshk handwraps do add a die step to the user, so this kind of thing isn't totally new.
2. Except that Deadly Weapons is supposed to add a die multiplier, not a die step.
3. DW when it is finished should do something on handwraps, up to the devs what that is (I think it should be a die multiplier just like on normal weapons).

[barecm]

The Deadly Weapons spell was not intended to go out with U12. There are still some problems with it that haven't been resolved. When it's officially released, scrolls will be added to treasure tables.

And how about giving Artificers a free scroll that is bound to character?

[Elaril]

1. Alchemical Byeshk handwraps do add a die step to the user, so this kind of thing isn't totally new.
So does the twelve outfit. That doesn't mean that it should be enhanced by deadly weapons as well.
2. Except that Deadly Weapons is supposed to add a die multiplier, not a die step.
What's 1 x 0? Be careful what you ask for.
3. DW when it is finished should do something on handwraps, up to the devs what that is (I think it should be a die multiplier just like on normal weapons).
See the answer to question 2 if you use a multiplier they could just say that they added a multiplier to it, and it would be 0. But deadly weapons isn't a multiplier actually, it's +1 to the weapon's damage die, which effectively doubles it through addition not multiplication. Either way, it shouldn't work on handwraps because they have no associated damage die.


All that aside, wouldn't effectively doubling a monk's unarmed damage be unequvocally gamebreaking in regards to every other dps melee class?

[Backley]

(Don't add replies inside of quote boxes, it makes it hard to quote you back).
1. Doesn't mean that Deadly Weapons shouldn't apply to handwraps either, just that it needs special-case code to do so (as also evidenced by the fact that DW currently works on melee but not on handwraps).
2. Obviously the Monk has the die to multiply, not the handwraps. Handwraps usually apply an effect to the Monk instead of doing damage directly, no reason this should be different.
3. And if they did say 'we applied the multiplier but it has no effect' it would still be broken, as it is now.


All that aside, wouldn't effectively doubling a monk's unarmed damage be unequvocally gamebreaking in regards to every other dps melee class?
Deadly Weapons as currently described is supposed to make your "equipped weapons deal +1(base weapon damage)"
The question is: what is the (base weapon damage) of a Monk with Handwraps?

eSoS is a Greatsword (base weapon damage 2d6) with a Die Multiplier of x2.5, giving 5d6. With Deadly Weapons, that becomes x3.5, which is 7d6 (an increase of 40%).

Monks start at level 1 with damage of 1d6, and end up at 2d10 at level 20 (up to 2d14 with an active Monk past-life and one of Garments of Equilibrium/Jidz-Tet'ka/Alchemical Byeshk Handwraps).

If they counted the (base weapon damage) of the level 20 Monk to be 2d10, then Deadly Weapons would take them to 4d10 (+100%).

If they consider the (base weapon damage) of the level 20 Monk to be 1d6, then Deadly Weapons would take them to 2d10+1d6 (+31.8%).

Somewhere between those 2 sounds right to me.

[Angelus_dead]

All that aside, wouldn't effectively doubling a monk's unarmed damage be unequvocally gamebreaking in regards to every other dps melee class?
Yes it would, just like doubling the Epic Sword of Shadow's base damage would be gamebreaking to every other melee weapon.

Really, they need to go back and change the concept of Deadly Weapons so it doesn't add your base damage to the damage: that approach is unfairly biased in favor of items with expanded base damages. Instead, Deadly Weapons could add some number of damage according to the type of weapon involved; that's much easier to balance.


eSoS is a Greatsword (base weapon damage 2d6) with a Die Multiplier of x2.5
When did that change happen? How was it announced?

[sephiroth1084]

And how about giving Artificers a free scroll that is bound to character?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Yeah, because that's worked for all the wizards who have been clamoring for easier access to new spells that come out for years...

[Backley]

When did that change happen? How was it announced?
How else do you get 5d6 from a Greatsword?
(And the Greensteel Greatsword is just Die Multiplier x1.5, so your litII Greatsword with Deadly Weapons should be x2.5, like non-Deadly Weapons eSoS (except the enhanced crit profile))

[Eladrin]

eSoS is a Greatsword (base weapon damage 2d6) with a Die Multiplier of x2.5, giving 5d6. With Deadly Weapons, that becomes x3.5, which is 7d6 (an increase of 40%).
This is a good description of the intent of the Deadly Weapons spell.

[Angelus_dead]

How else do you get 5d6 from a Greatsword?
How to get 5d6 damage from a Greatsword? There are many ways that could happen: most simply, someone could backspace over the "2d6" and type in "5d6". Someone external to the software files has no way to know the details of their data representation.


(And Greensteel is just Die Multiplier x1.5
Greensteel clearly does not give a 1.5x multiplier to the weapon base, or any other constant multiplier. Going from 1d10 to 2d8 is not a 1.5x factor.

[Backley]

Greensteel clearly does not give a 1.5x multiplier to the weapon base, or any other constant multiplier. Going from 1d10 to 2d8 is not a 1.5x factor.

My bad, I meant Greensteel (http://ddowiki.com/page/Greensteel_weapons) Greatswords are x1.5. Corrected, thanks.

[waterboytkd]

Even if they get DW working correctly, it should not work on wraps.
Handwraps aren't weapons. Handwraps are enchanted bits of cloth. They are not dangerous at all in and of themselves. What they do is supplement the user's own ability to deal damage with their bodies.
Do handwraps have a damage die listed? Nope. Because handwraps are not weapons.
This is the reason that handwraps work differently from other weapons. They work differently than other weapons because they aren't actually weapons at all.

What an Artificer does is he changes the properties of a magic item with a bit of *tinkering* which allows those items to create slightly different effects. He cannot *tinker* with your hands and feet, and your specialty with your body is what creates the damage. Not the wraps. The wraps only supplement what can already be done.

You cannot double the damage dice of handwraps because handwraps don't have any damage dice to double.
Deadly Weapons certainly should not work on wraps.

Making up arbitrary lore does not make it actual lore. In fact, PnP is rife with artificers being able to augment a person's body by tinkering with their gear. If you could give someone a Bull's Strength or Bear's Endurance by using the associated infusion on their belt or gauntlets, why couldn't you make their fists more deadly by using the infusion on their handwraps?


Yes it would, just like doubling the Epic Sword of Shadow's base damage would be gamebreaking to every other melee weapon.

Really, they need to go back and change the concept of Deadly Weapons so it doesn't add your base damage to the damage: that approach is unfairly biased in favor of items with expanded base damages. Instead, Deadly Weapons could add some number of damage according to the type of weapon involved; that's much easier to balance.

DEVS, READ THIS! I really like this idea. I think it'll make Deadly Weapons a bit more of a balanced spell. Of course, part of their consideration for using base damage could be that attempted balance between weapons was done by messing with base damage vs crit profiles, so weapons with poorer base damages would benefit from their great crit profile (eg khopeshes), so the smaller bonus would still be pretty good as it's affected by crits. And weapons with greater base damages would have terrible crit profiles (unarmed), so they'd need more from deadly weapons to keep it even. Of course, the eSoS breaks this entirely, having the highest base damage in the game, as well as having the best crit range in the game.


When did that change happen? How was it announced?

I want to say it was back before U11, when artificers were first out on lama, and Point-Blank Shot was first changed. Since PBS works like DW, people were wondering how it'd work with the epic Thornlord. Eladrin mentioned that there were intentions of tweaking epic weapons a bit, so that rather than having arbitrary base damage increases from normal to epic versions, the epic versions would receive some multiple to their base dice determined by the "class" of the epic, or something like that. So, a "class 1" epic longsword would receive a +1*(base), turning it from 1d8 to 2d8. But if it was some kind of special longsword that had 1d10 base, then the epic version would go to 2d10. But a "class 2" epic would receive a +1.5*(base), and his example was the eSoS fell in this category. That's why the eSoS went from 2d6 to 5d6.

And, in this whole discussion, he mentioned that PBS and DW would use the weapon's original base (so 2d6 for the eSoS, and 1d8+2 for the eThornlord). Thus, the eThornlord, which gets a +1*(base) for being epic (going to 2d8+4), would only gain another 1d8+2 for PBS, and would only gain another 1d8+2 for DW, not another 2d8+4 for PBS/DW.

However, I don't know if that was actually implemented behind the scenes or not.

[Cyr]

This is a good description of the intent of the Deadly Weapons spell.

Is Deadly weapons just meant to be a more powerful version of elemental weapons (ie more damage because base damage is higher then 1d6 on most weapons and base damage better then elemental damage) OR is Deadly weapons being considered (as well as other future abilities which work in a similar manner...and PBS now) as a method of providing a boost for certain weapons which may not quite win out in most cases becoming top notch...

In other words...

Are epic weapons and other expanded base damage dice weapons going to be changed to have mulipliers that strictly bring them back down to their base for the weapon type or are some going to have higher then base still to allow deadly weapons and similar abilities to be more effective on them making them superior to the alternative with deadly/similar ability or worse then the alternative without?

[Eladrin]

Are epic weapons and other expanded base damage dice weapons going to be changed to have mulipliers that strictly bring them back down to their base for the weapon type or are some going to have higher then base still to allow deadly weapons and similar abilities to be more effective on them making them superior to the alternative with deadly/similar ability or worse then the alternative without?
Note: The following is still subject to change.

We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive. :)

* It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]

[Asmodeus451]

Note: The following is still subject to change.

We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive. :)

* It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]

so after FINALLY buffing the Epic Antique Greataxe, you are going to nerf it back down again? the 3d10 (3-30) base damage is one of the things that makes it competitive with other weapons, with this change it will be reduced down to 2d12 (2-24)

not to mention nerfing greensteel as well.

[maddmatt70]

Note: The following is still subject to change.

We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive. :)

* It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]

Deadly weapons is roughly the equivalent of an inspire courage bard song although dispellable and single target (hence needs to be cast on multiple targets). Will bard songs be buffed? I personally think bards are more limited when you factor in deadly weapons for the aritificer especially when you consider artificers only have their 1st tier of one prestige enhancement.

[Eladrin]

so after FINALLY buffing the Epic Antique Greataxe, you are going to nerf it back down again? the 3d10 (3-30) base damage is one of the things that makes it competitive with other weapons, with this change it will be reduced down to 2d12 (2-24)
The Epic Antique Greataxe is actually planned to be a unique case, at 2[1d20]. Its average damage should increase by a small amount.


not to mention nerfing greensteel as well.
Most greensteel items are significantly weaker than 1.5[W]. 28 of them are buffed with this proposal, 2 are unchanged, and 7 become slightly weaker.

[TreknaQudane]

The Epic Antique Greataxe is actually planned to be a unique case, at 2[1d20]. Its average damage should increase by a small amount.


Most greensteel items are significantly weaker than 1.5[W]. 28 of them are buffed with this proposal, 2 are unchanged, and 7 become slightly weaker.

Hmmm

Falchions get a slight boost. They are 2d6 as GS now, the new way would have them as 3d4. Same total damage but the low end is slightly higher.

This change would make GS khopesh even better.. we sooo needed that.

The two unchanged... Shuriken (1d3 vs 1d2 +1) and ... Great Crossbow (3d8 vs 2d8 + 1d8)?

[Cyr]

Note: The following is still subject to change.


Thank you for that fairly comprehensive answer. Was very interesting to read. I see you are keeping a few special cases though from later posts. In partcular, the change to alchemical gives them a much needed damage boost versus GS.

How are handwraps being treated for this? Are alchemical handwraps going to be dice nuetral or add the multiplier?

[Eladrin]

Hmmm

Falchions get a slight boost. They are 2d6 as GS now, the new way would have them as 3d4. Same total damage but the low end is slightly higher.

This change would make GS khopesh even better.. we sooo needed that.
Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.

We may modify the bonuses based on the original damage dice, to mimic the original bonus more closely, or make one handed weapons get a different bonus from two handed (or pseudo-two handed, like the bs/da) weapons.


The two unchanged... Shuriken and ... Great Crossbow?
Greatsword and Great Crossbow end up identical.

[Coldin]

Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.

We may modify the bonuses based on the original damage dice, to mimic the original bonus more closely, or make one handed weapons get a different bonus from two handed (or pseudo-two handed, like the bs/da) weapons.


Greatsword and Great Crossbow end up identical.

Eladrin. You know...you could just fix Khopesh. I'm sure the players wouldn't mind if it went to the PnP rules. ;) :cool:

[Darkrok]

Eladrin. You know...you could just fix Khopesh. I'm sure the players wouldn't mind if it went to the PnP rules. ;) :cool:

You've just made the heads of about 2,000 people explode a la Scanners. :)

[Eladrin]

Eladrin. You know...you could just fix Khopesh. I'm sure the players wouldn't mind if it went to the PnP rules. ;) :cool:
A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that. ;)

[sirgog]

Note: The following is still subject to change.

We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive. :)

* It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]

What do you think of displaying the eSOS this way:

Epic Sword of Shadow
Base stats:
Greatsword
2d6

Mutations:
Adamantine
+10
'Augmented Base Damage: x2.5' - This weapon does 250% of base damage. This does not affect extra damage from Strength or other sources.
'Augmented Critical: 18/x3' - This weapon threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18 and crits for triple damage instead of the usual. This effect stacks with Improved Critical and similar effects.
(slots as at present)

I think that would be the clearest way to adjust it. Also, for Alchemical weapons, you could give the strong weapon types 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.6' and the weaker base weapons such as Longswords 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.8'. It's totally unambiguous, and it also makes it clear that the weapon has a special crit profile when it might otherwise not be immediately noticed (e.g. level 20 Cutthroat's Smallblade).


Oh and if you do anything to Nightforge weapons, please consider adding more drop sources of Adamantine Ore...

[Darkrok]

A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that. ;)

You could make it an exceptional vertigo! ;)

[Darkrok]

What do you think of displaying the eSOS this way:

Epic Sword of Shadow
Base stats:
Greatsword
2d6

Mutations:
Adamantine
+10
'Augmented Base Damage: x2.5' - This weapon does 250% of base damage. This does not affect extra damage from Strength or other sources.
'Augmented Critical: 18/x3' - This weapon threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18 and crits for triple damage instead of the usual. This effect stacks with Improved Critical and similar effects.
(slots as at present)


I love this. Clear, concise, and tells you what the weapon does.

[grodon9999]

A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that. ;)

You give me a way to magically convert them to any other weapon of my choosing and a free feat swap I'll call it even.

But there are better way to balance this without nerfing anything and starting a riot. Adjusting the GS base-damages is a great place to start. Cheaper and better (+4/+4 to-hit/damage) racial enhancements is another.

[NytCrawlr]

Eladrin. You know...you could just fix Khopesh. I'm sure the players wouldn't mind if it went to the PnP rules. ;) :cool:

Being a player who loves the Khopesh and has a character currently using them, I would not mind this change at all. Would certainly help her trip DCs out. :D

Got greatsword if I want to go DPS still.

[Argila]

nvm

[Glenalth]

A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that. ;)

Dropping the x3 would cause a riot.
Just not boosting the base damage from where it is now and adding a stacking +2 vertigo instead, probably not.

ps.
Similar combat DC buffs on lesser used weapons would be neat too. Give people a reason to use some of the non-optimal choices in the game.

[LeLoric]

You can explain it all the ways you want, it will still be the biggest nerf i have seen in epic weapons.

And we are not talking about weapons that you gain in a week, personally, i spend mouths to get the eSOS, now it is going to be nerfed!?

I have read this all across the forum and will place it also here:
STOP CHANGING WHAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE CHANGED AND FIX LAG AND BUGS!

(yes, i am mad about the 'planned' epic weapon change)

I am pretty sure you just proved Eladrin's point there is no change with his proposed mechanic it will still be 5d6 the fact you can't understand it is waht he is pointing out.

I like the changeas it allows effects like deadlyweapons and point blank shot to become more useable without the fact taht you always think omg we can't do this as it breaks esos.

[Darkrok]

I am pretty sure you just proved Eladrin's point there is no change with his proposed mechanic it will still be 5d6 the fact you can't understand it is waht he is pointing out.

I like the changeas it allows effects like deadlyweapons and point blank shot to become more useable without the fact taht you always think omg we can't do this as it breaks esos.

Yeah, I think his post proved that maybe Sirgog's proposed wording isn't even enough.

Maybe a huge neon flashing sign that says "THIS WEAPON IS STILL EFFECTIVELY 5d6. DON'T TAZE US!!!" would do the trick?

[Argila]

Ok... my bad, didn't understood.

[waterboytkd]

What do you think of displaying the eSOS this way:

Epic Sword of Shadow
Base stats:
Greatsword
2d6

Mutations:
Adamantine
+10
'Augmented Base Damage: x2.5' - This weapon does 250% of base damage. This does not affect extra damage from Strength or other sources.
'Augmented Critical: 18/x3' - This weapon threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18 and crits for triple damage instead of the usual. This effect stacks with Improved Critical and similar effects.
(slots as at present)

I think that would be the clearest way to adjust it. Also, for Alchemical weapons, you could give the strong weapon types 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.6' and the weaker base weapons such as Longswords 'Augmented Base Damage: x1.8'. It's totally unambiguous, and it also makes it clear that the weapon has a special crit profile when it might otherwise not be immediately noticed (e.g. level 20 Cutthroat's Smallblade).


Oh and if you do anything to Nightforge weapons, please consider adding more drop sources of Adamantine Ore...

Pure gold, right here.

[Darkrok]

Ok... my bad, didn't understood.

You wouldn't end up being the only one. People did work hard to get those items and the kneejerk reaction to any changes will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, even if the change isn't a nerf.

[Coldin]

A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that. ;)

Hey. Stacking Vertigo might be nice! Couple that with letting Dexterity affect Trip DCs, and I'd love you forever. ;)

Probably too late to make any real change to it though. Just annoying how Khopesh tends to be the end all, be all of one handed weapons.

[Redicular]

You can explain it all the ways you want, it will still be the biggest nerf i have seen in epic weapons.

And we are not talking about weapons that you gain in a week, personally, i spend mouths to get the eSOS, now it is going to be nerfed!?

And all this for what? For you to make players want a Artificer in the parties so he can buff weapons?

I have read this all across the forum and will place it also here:
STOP CHANGING WHAT DOESN'T NEED TO BE CHANGED AND FIX LAG AND BUGS!

(yes, i am mad about the 'planned' epic weapon change)

um...what nerf? 2.5[2d6] has the same average dmg as 5d6 (17.5), the same min dmg (5) and the same max dmg (30)

if anything the "nerf" (though how you can nerf something that's not yet implemented is lost on me) is to artificiers, since their spell isn't nearly as strong when used on that particular top tier weapon

[Book_O_Dragons]

What will happen to people who already have this spell?

[Eladrin]

What will happen to people who already have this spell?
You won't have to find a scroll later on. Until then, the spell is pretty erratic since we hadn't had a chance to fix some of the strangeness with it.

[Backley]

What will happen to people who already have this spell?

String 'em up, I say! Bunch of no-good exploit'n varmits!

:rabble rabble:

(Seriously, my guess is they will have an empty spell slot and need to inscribe something else. At least they can change at any tavern/shrine like Wizards and Clerics. Would be more of a pain on Bard, Favored Soul, or Sorc.)

Edit: D'oh, ninja'd by the man.

[Alexandryte]

A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that. ;)

Make it a longsword that has an inherent chance to trip if you have the feat. Similar to how a great crossbow can knock foes down, bastard swords and dwarven axes get glancing blows, and repeating crossbows can hit multiple times before reloading.

Then all you'd need is to make shurikens and kamas do something minor and there would be a reason to spend a feat on exotic weapons in general (they do what other weapons can do but have a unique built in perk).

[dTarkanan]

I think all the DPS kings would flip their ****, unfortunately. Most of them didn't spend feats and ingredients to craft a longsword that knocks stuff down. They want to have the biggest numbers around, and nothing else.

[Scraap]

Make it a longsword that has an inherent chance to trip if you have the feat. Similar to how a great crossbow can knock foes down, bastard swords and dwarven axes get glancing blows, and repeating crossbows can hit multiple times before reloading.

Then all you'd need is to make shurikens and kamas do something minor and there would be a reason to spend a feat on exotic weapons in general (they do what other weapons can do but have a unique built in perk).

^this is something I've suggested as well before.

Nothing inherently evil about saying "Ok, that's enough damage, now bring more to the table". Provided of course, it's something that functions generally (Chance to hamstring rednames as well, perhaps, since I highly doubt you'd let us knock them down?).

That being said, standardizing the shifted dice for that type of thing does make sense in general.

[Alexandryte]

I think all the DPS kings would flip their ****, unfortunately. Most of them didn't spend feats and ingredients to craft a longsword that knocks stuff down. They want to have the biggest numbers around, and nothing else.

Oh? What would they have crafted otherwise in the absolute world of the kopesh?

You know what other weapon was adjusted because it was horribly skewed to the point where it was more of a question of "why make anything else"?

Epic Sword of Shadows.

And DDO continued on.

Id like to see diversity amongst weapons....for it actually to be a choice rather than 90% of weapons not being used because there is one that is obviously brokenly superior in all ways.

[Book_O_Dragons]

You won't have to find a scroll later on. Until then, the spell is pretty erratic since we hadn't had a chance to fix some of the strangeness with it.

I meant will it become uncastable or something like that.

p.s. TY for being so promt

[Shade]

Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.


REDUCE THE COMPLEXITY???

SeriouslY?

Your going through this massive amount of labor and trouble because your worried about 1 epic weapon becoming SLIGHTLY more powerful.

I can't even begin to get your logic.

The ESoS is the most powerful weapon in the game. Players taht make good use of it deal average damage in the 200-250 point range a swing (counting bonus dice and averaging in crits). And your worried that adding a whole +3d6 on that will break the game? Seriously?
Meanwhile nearly everyone agrees that melee are very far behind in the balance curve atm, and artificers as well.. Yet favored souls and casters are EXTREMELY powerful, able to push out insane DPS a melee can never hope to match..

I really fail to get your logic here.

I used the deadly weapons enhanced ESoS on lammania a lot (and now on a live a bit now you released the spell) and its in no way, shape or form at all game breaking. It changes nothing for me really.. With the hugely buffed raidboss hp, raidbosses take an extremely long time to take down, teh fact im still dealing less DPS then I did years ago in Update 4 is just plain depressing.
Trash mobs die fast either way.
A whole 10.5 dmg increase when my average is already 250+ and I can crit in the 1500+ range is utterly absurd to even begin to consider a serious impact on gameplay, and requireing such massive, complex changes, that players will not be fans on.

Yes it will be more useful to the low strength melee types using weapons, but by most accounts they are desperate in need of a boost anyways.

Especially for the fact your doing it because of one VERY rare weapon..

Yet your breakin the game balance for the two most commonly used Greensteel weapons taht are already well regarded as far more powerful then the rest:
Khopsh and Falcion.

So what have you accomplsiehd by this change:
-Nerfed fighters and barbarians, classes already low on the totem pole atm.
-Nerfed artificers - your brand new class your trying to sell... Great.
-Buffing the already broken greensteel weapons and nerfing the ones that werent broken.
-Vastly increased the complexity of understanding an items tooltip.

I see nothing positive form this nerf. Huge waste of developer time because you guys are afraid of a meeger bonus on ESoS.

And at this time too? When it seems like 95% of the player base is calling out for you to stop changing things and focus on fixing bugs for an update?

One of the worst ideas i've heard from you in a while Eladrin.

Scrap it, stop wasting your time on something taht won't accomplsh anything positive. Just leave deadly weapons as is and put in the scrolls, it's not going to hurt anything, and infact will improve game balance.

The only other thing important in weapon damage lately is the fact rare/unique and powerful 1handers to match the esos dont exist. Add one to the game in U13 and youll make a lot of players happy.. This complex nerf make anyone happy.

[Glenalth]

If numbers are being truncated in the calculations, in cases where this is not a whole number it will cause a very small nerf to melee damage.

1d6 + .5x
Calculates as 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6, 7.5, 9

Will the end result be:
1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9
or
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9

[LeLoric]

If numbers are being truncated in the calculations, in cases where this is not a whole number it will cause a very small nerf to melee damage.

1d6 + .5x
Calculates as 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6, 7.5, 9

Will the end result be:
1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9
or
2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9

Good point we are looking at an average dmg number of 5 in your first case and 5.5 in the second where the standead 3.5 average dmg considered for a 1d6 multiplied by 1.5 would result in an avg of 5.25. While a swing of .5 dmg seems minor players grind gear for similar amounnts all the time.

[waterboytkd]

This pass will also affect...Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]).

Question: how will that work with Alc Handwraps (and also epic Handwraps)? Currently, Alc wraps don't do anything with base damage (except byeshk, which is a die-step increasing effect like Jidz in earth, or Garments of Equililbrium), and neither do epics. Is that going to stay the same? Will Alc and epic wraps now give +.75[W] and +1[W], respectively? That could be quite the boost (better than a Greatsword would get, and on a TWF weapon).

Just a thought: you could retool the monk's class a tiny bit. At level 4 and 8, they get a die step increase by virtue of feats. Then, at level 12, the monk loses those feats, but gets a new feat that gives +1[W]. Then at levels 16 and 20, the monk picks up the die step increase feats again. This would have the exact progression monks have now for unarmed damage, but then you could give Alc and epic wraps the +.75[W] and +1[W], respectively, and it wouldn't add 2 dice. Yeah, getting an extra d14 (eg by monk past life and byeshk Alc wraps), or even 3/4 of a d14, is still a pretty big bump, but that awesome 20/x2 crit profile makes up for it. :P


Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.

I think what Bigjunk mentioned is worth exploring before going to nerfs on khopeshes, but if nerf is called for, what about just reducing the khopeshes base damage die some? Although, the damage of a khopesh isn't hurt much if it drops to a d6 from a d8, since it's the crit profile that makes it so strong. The other thing you could do is set the khopeshes crit profile to 18-20/x2 (leaving base die at d8), and maybe give it some other cool benefit (you mentioned Vertigo +2, but maybe something more like +2 stacking bonus on all tactics DCs?). That would make it the exotic version of the scimitar/rapier weapon line...you'd still get rage from forumites, but khopeshes would still be the best 1 hander for TWF, just not by so much (though they would begin losing out to elves with scimitars/rapiers, but hey, at least there could then be a reason to be an elf!)

EDIT: Rather than a +2 DCs, even, just give the khopesh glancing blows if you're not TWF with it (in addition to changing its crit profile to 18-20/x2). That way, it'd follow the same progression as axes and longswords in terms of their exotic equivalent.


<shade entering barbarian rage>

I find this rant a bit suspect. I mean, your argument for why they shouldn't stop Deadly Weapons from being simply mind-blowing good on an eSoS is because the eSoS is already stupid powerful? So they should just let it be more powerful? Or was it that barbarians are already dealing such stupid amounts of damage that who cares about an extra 10?

Granted, I will agree that it seems unnecessary to make a power level change because of melee power levels when casters are so far above and beyond melees, even in terms of dps. BUT, I can't help but be reminded of all your hating on monks this last update, because you think they're OP compared to other melees...I mean, it's alright to use caster's power as a defense to why eSoS wielders shouldn't be nerfed, but it's not okay to use that for monks? Who didn't even get a dps boost beyond having access to Calomel wraps?

Personally, I like Eladrin's idea, because I feel like it standardizes base damage a bit more, which can actually give the devs more options for developing cool effects.

[smatt]

All this for 1 Arti spell?? Really? I know I know fancy to make it simpler... I feel like Ricky Ricardo looking at one of Lucy's wacky ideas right now :D

I get it, I get it... But it's more work to create what APPEARS to be a simple solution to a non-problem. Arti's are fine WITHOUT Deadly weapons... Yes it's a nice buff...

I can't wait to see how this breaks the game yet again....

"Oh there's some kind of calc problem that creating even more of the horrendous lag-like behavior we don't see on our fancy in house builds but 90% of the players see on live, sicne live is our real BETA test anyways. We are working on a fix but have clue when it will be implemented" :o

[sephiroth1084]

I have to agree with some posters that this seems to be an awful lot of work and revision in order to accommodate a single spell, though I assume the tech used for this will be employed elsewhere for something, and that standardizing the base damage dice of weapons tickles the sense of order some of you (the devs) have, but...do we need all of this?

I'm aware that dev time spent on one problem doesn't necessarily equal dev time not spent on another problem, but there are definitely far more important things that this will be drawing time away from.

If this is just about Deadly Weapons, couldn't you just have it add +2d6 untyped damage per hit and maybe with, say, +3d6 on crits (4d6 on x3 weapons, 5d6 on x4 etc...)? There. That's deadly, and better than Elemental Weapons, but doesn't require gobs of calculations.

[Darkrok]

I have to agree with some posters that this seems to be an awful lot of work and revision in order to accommodate a single spell, though I assume the tech used for this will be employed elsewhere for something, and that standardizing the base damage dice of weapons tickles the sense of order some of you (the devs) have, but...do we need all of this?

I'm aware that dev time spent on one problem doesn't necessarily equal dev time not spent on another problem, but there are definitely far more important things that this will be drawing time away from.

If this is just about Deadly Weapons, couldn't you just have it add +2d6 untyped damage per hit and maybe with, say, +3d6 on crits (4d6 on x3 weapons, 5d6 on x4 etc...)? There. That's deadly, and better than Elemental Weapons, but doesn't require gobs of calculations.

If they were to do this I'd like to see it split between THF and TWF (ie 1.5x for THF or something like that).

Maybe it's just the mathematician in me but I really like this solution though. It's elegant, brings more standardization to what's currently a sort of random damage system, and would bring a more logical and balanced damage system to future items. I understand some people being upset with this but it comes across as just disappointment that what they expected (10d6 damage) has now been 'nerfed' to less damage (7d6). Some standardization and balance is sorely needed in weapon types and specific weapons and this would be a step in the right direction. Arguing against it on the bases of melee versus caster balance is the wrong argument here. It's the right decision in this case and any melee/caster balance should be addressed outside of the effect of a single buff.

[sephiroth1084]

If they were to do this I'd like to see it split between THF and TWF (ie 1.5x for THF or something like that).

Maybe it's just the mathematician in me but I really like this solution though. It's elegant, brings more standardization to what's currently a sort of random damage system, and would bring a more logical and balanced damage system to future items. I understand some people being upset with this but it comes across as just disappointment that what they expected (10d6 damage) has now been 'nerfed' to less damage (7d6). Some standardization and balance is sorely needed in weapon types and specific weapons and this would be a step in the right direction. Arguing against it on the bases of melee versus caster balance is the wrong argument here. It's the right decision in this case and any melee/caster balance should be addressed outside of the effect of a single buff.
I agree that the standardization is attractive, from a certain perspective, but it looks like a helluvalot of dev time spent on some thing that will almost assuredly end up being buggy and largely does very little to change the existing game. For the future, they could just apply the principle behind the scenes: decide that new crafting system weapons X come in with some improvement to the base dice for the weapon, whether that means giving a longsword 2d6 instead of 1d8, or 1d8+2 (like the Thornlord) or whatever, it's a lot easier to implement.

I don't care about how the ESoS fits into all of this. What I care about is a lot of dev and QA time and resources being devoted to finding the right balance for this, working it into the code for all such weapons, finding where the bugs pop up, releasing the half-finished idea, and working on ironing out the kinks for the next year and a half vs. working on, say, the AC system, or immunities system, both of which need major overhauls and deserve to not have attention pulled away from them by something like this.

[sirgog]

One more thing on my previous suggestion: Maybe it's easier to describe it like this:

Epic Sword of Shadow
Greatsword

+10
Adamantine
Augmented Damage: +3d6 (This weapon's base damage is increased by 3d6 on all hits and this is multiplied on a critical).
Augmented Critical: 18/x3
(Slots as usual)


Then for something like a Greensteel Khopesh (base damage now 1d8 as standard for Khopeshes):
+5
Green Steel
Augmented Damage: +1

or a Greensteel Dwarven Axe (base damage 1d10)
+5
Green Steel
Augmented Damage: +1d6

Both of those would be equivalent on average to the present items.

[LeLoric]

All this for 1 Arti spell?? Really? I know I know fancy to make it simpler... I feel like Ricky Ricardo looking at one of Lucy's wacky ideas right now :D

I get it, I get it... But it's more work to create what APPEARS to be a simple solution to a non-problem. Arti's are fine WITHOUT Deadly weapons... Yes it's a nice buff...

I can't wait to see how this breaks the game yet again....

"Oh there's some kind of calc problem that creating even more of the horrendous lag-like behavior we don't see on our fancy in house builds but 90% of the players see on live, sicne live is our real BETA test anyways. We are working on a fix but have clue when it will be implemented" :o

I think it's for much more than just one artificer spell here smatt. It does also currently affect point blank shot which has similar dmg boost. It opens up the possibility for many more similar effects. Gear that provides base dmg modifiers, prestiges that increase your base dmg modifiers and many others. It also could lead to different quest designs. It could go the other way in the form of debuffs.

I would like to see maybe Purple Dragon knight released with something like this as an aura buff rather than a morale bonus that is trumped by any bard in the group.

Standardizing base dmg just allows for many more tweaks and additions to the game.

[sirgog]

I think it's for much more than just one artificer spell here smatt. It does also currently affect point blank shot which has similar dmg boost. It opens up the possibility for many more similar effects. Gear that provides base dmg modifiers, prestiges that increase your base dmg modifiers and many others. It also could lead to different quest designs. It could go the other way in the form of debuffs.

I would like to see maybe Purple Dragon knight released with something like this as an aura buff rather than a morale bonus that is trumped by any bard in the group.

Standardizing base dmg just allows for many more tweaks and additions to the game.

This.

So much potential in the future for this change. Deadly weapons is just the beginning.

Think of a boss fight where landing the killing blow a particular add grants a 30 second stacking 'Augmented Damage: +100%' effect (+1[W] to use Eladrin's nomenclature). This tech would let the Devs create a fight where the boss has unassailably high regeneration - until all your melees start to juggle a stack of 15 of those buffs, then they might be able to out-DPS the regeneration.

So much other potential too.

[Angelus_dead]

I have to agree with some posters that this seems to be an awful lot of work and revision in order to accommodate a single spell, though I assume the tech used for this will be employed elsewhere for something, and that standardizing the base damage dice of weapons tickles the sense of order some of you (the devs) have, but...do we need all of this?
Yes, it definitely seems it would've been faster and easier to just forget all mention of "base damage" and "+1[W]" and some weapons having a base multiplier, and simply write Deadly Weapons like so: "The weapon gains damage of +1d10 one-handed or +2d6 two-handed/ranged."

Because that's what it comes down to: An Artificer buff that gives more damage than Elemental Weapons. That's all it needs to be. The complexities and effects of the planned version aren't really helpful, and the small amount of good they do would be better accomplished through other avenues.

PS. Still no answer on what Deadly Weapons is meant to do to Handwraps, eh?

[waterboytkd]

I think it's for much more than just one artificer spell here smatt. It does also currently affect point blank shot which has similar dmg boost. It opens up the possibility for many more similar effects. Gear that provides base dmg modifiers, prestiges that increase your base dmg modifiers and many others. It also could lead to different quest designs. It could go the other way in the form of debuffs.

I would like to see maybe Purple Dragon knight released with something like this as an aura buff rather than a morale bonus that is trumped by any bard in the group.

Standardizing base dmg just allows for many more tweaks and additions to the game.


This.

So much potential in the future for this change. Deadly weapons is just the beginning.

Think of a boss fight where landing the killing blow a particular add grants a 30 second stacking 'Augmented Damage: +100%' effect (+1[W] to use Eladrin's nomenclature). This tech would let the Devs create a fight where the boss has unassailably high regeneration - until all your melees start to juggle a stack of 15 of those buffs, then they might be able to out-DPS the regeneration.

So much other potential too.

Exactly. A standardized system here opens up sooooooooooo much for possible future designs.

[dTarkanan]

Oh? What would they have crafted otherwise in the absolute world of the kopesh? If you mean what they would have crafted if Khopeshes were just longswords with knockdown, probably a scimitar or one of the other +6 crit profile weapons (kukri, rapier, or falchion), freeing up a feat for other more useful things.


You know what other weapon was adjusted because it was horribly skewed to the point where it was more of a question of "why make anything else"?

Epic Sword of Shadows. This is true- however thre are a number of factors that make this a very different case. The number of people who posessed an eSoS paled in comparison to the number of khopesh builds out there, the old eSoS was a far, far stronger outlier than a khopesh is (a +18 crit profile), and the new eSoS was still left top of the heap to soothe the injured parties. Not so with the proposed changes to khopeshes.

I won't argue against more weapon variety being great. I'd love to have a reason to make a dagger rogue or a greatclub barbarian. But the apoplyctic rage against nerfing Khopeshes into being longswords+knockdown would be catastrophic.
I don't plan on making a khopesh build ever, but I also don't want to suffer through a mass player revolt.

[Angelus_dead]

So much potential in the future for this change. Deadly weapons is just the beginning.
There is potential in anything, but most potentialities aren't useful. This idea shows little to recommend it: The only overall benefit is subtle, small, and available by other means.


Think of a boss fight where landing the killing blow a particular add grants a 30 second stacking 'Augmented Damage: +100%' effect (+1[W] to use Eladrin's nomenclature). This tech would let the Devs create a fight where the boss has unassailably high regeneration - until all your melees start to juggle a stack of 15 of those buffs, then they might be able to out-DPS the regeneration.
If the designers wanted to create an encounter like that, they could simply use a stacking +4 damage buff. The complexity arising from deriving it from base weapon damage doesn't contribute to that goal.

[sly_1]

Yes, Khopesh currently go from +22% to +50%. I'm not particularly happy with that, which is one reason I mentioned the this is still subject to change. We have the ability to set it on an item by item basis, but I was looking to reduce the complexity when possible.

We may modify the bonuses based on the original damage dice, to mimic the original bonus more closely, or make one handed weapons get a different bonus from two handed (or pseudo-two handed, like the bs/da) weapons...

If it is still up in the air, then this is a perfect opportunity to address the long standing inequality between bastard swords and khopeshes. Both cost a feat but Khopesh is and always has been so vastly superior mathematically that the only compelling argument to go bastard sword has been "you can get em cheap in the auction house". Adding in glancing blows went a ways to bridge the gap, but from a pure dps perspective, khopesh is still better.

Soooo... give bs's at least the same % bonus khopesh is gonna get (ie if khopesh gets 50%, bastard sword gets at least 50% if not more) *and* let the old implementation of deadly weapons work on bastard swords and bastard swords alone (ie double the damage, period, not .5(w) or whatever. If the gs bastard sword does 2d8 let a dw infused gs bastard sword do 4d8. If it does 2d10 let it do 4d10, etc.).

With that sort of implementation in place, then, and *only* then, will an investment in the feat to use bastard swords be worth the cost. Anything less and bastard swords will always just be well, bs.

[smatt]

I think it's for much more than just one artificer spell here smatt. It does also currently affect point blank shot which has similar dmg boost. It opens up the possibility for many more similar effects. Gear that provides base dmg modifiers, prestiges that increase your base dmg modifiers and many others. It also could lead to different quest designs. It could go the other way in the form of debuffs.

I would like to see maybe Purple Dragon knight released with something like this as an aura buff rather than a morale bonus that is trumped by any bard in the group.

Standardizing base dmg just allows for many more tweaks and additions to the game.


Oh I see the potential here... But I also see the vast potential for the pitfalls. I understand the development cycle and how they work on things sometimes even way more than a year out, a few get into the game and many don't. This just looks on the surface to be something that is very dangerous to play with, that will "MAYBE" cause huge problems and of course the huge time sink. How this will play out with the way the server(s) use it, and with all the current data flow problems. Well, I'm not optimistic at all... I see and understand the idea behind this, and how it could appear to be a streamline of the current system, allowing for further expansions. But seeing how things have gone the last few updates over these months time. I'm not optimistic that this systems woudl come into place without being a total mess when it hits live.... It's not that I lack confidence in the abilites of the Devs, I lack confidence in the forsight of the powers that be to allow a proper amount of time for such things. Of which I personally believe has been a HUGE stumbling block with the messes on hand atm... Not only with current new systems/quest releases, but with incomplete systems from the last 2 years...

As for more aura type effects... I'm not a fan since I'm really of the opinion all the various auras are a big red flag as far as the current in party client to client latency issues, as well as the new party UI. I know auras are cool and all but.... Unless they can clean up this client to client latency issue, they had it moving better after that big DPS lag controversy... Well.... It's not better now...

As Seph said above... It concerns me when I see these kinds of changes being worked on considering what I see as a mess of a game right now. Of course others may not see the mess I see or they may see it as a non-issue and that of course includes the folks doing the actual work on the game.

[Glenalth]

One more thing on my previous suggestion: Maybe it's easier to describe it like this:

Epic Sword of Shadow
Greatsword

+10
Adamantine
Augmented Damage: +3d6 (This weapon's base damage is increased by 3d6 on all hits and this is multiplied on a critical).
Augmented Critical: 18/x3
(Slots as usual)


Then for something like a Greensteel Khopesh (base damage now 1d8 as standard for Khopeshes):
+5
Green Steel
Augmented Damage: +1

or a Greensteel Dwarven Axe (base damage 1d10)
+5
Green Steel
Augmented Damage: +1d6

Both of those would be equivalent on average to the present items.

I like this method better than the multipliers. Easier to understand, doesn't need a ton of explanation, and no weird rounding issues.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes, it definitely seems it would've been faster and easier to just forget all mention of "base damage" and "+1[W]" and some weapons having a base multiplier, and simply write Deadly Weapons like so: "The weapon gains damage of +1d10 one-handed or +2d6 two-handed/ranged."

Because that's what it comes down to: An Artificer buff that gives more damage than Elemental Weapons. That's all it needs to be. The complexities and effects of the planned version aren't really helpful, and the small amount of good they do would be better accomplished through other avenues.

PS. Still no answer on what Deadly Weapons is meant to do to Handwraps, eh?
Which (the HW issue) is something that would be easily solved by simply changing Deadly Weapons to work as a simple additive buff, rather than some function of the weapon's base stats. The answer would be simple: The same thing as for every other weapon.

There is potential in anything, but most potentialities aren't useful. This idea shows little to recommend it: The only overall benefit is subtle, small, and available by other means.

If the designers wanted to create an encounter like that, they could simply use a stacking +4 damage buff. The complexity arising from deriving it from base weapon damage doesn't contribute to that goal.
Agreed.

It would create a quasi-uniform system within which to work, but that system isn't necessary. If we, or the devs, want weapon base dice to be better balanced, such as looking at the difference between a greensteel longsword going from 1d8 to 1d10 and a dwarven axe going from 1d10 to 2d8, they can do the math on their end for the individual weapons and make a decision there, or make a standard decision about how weapon dice progress, or use the template from the Thornlord for such adjustments, deciding that X weapon set should increase base damage by 25%, taking damage die, multiplying it by .25 and adding that value after the die: so, 1d10 would gain 2.5 damage, or +1d4, or something along those lines.

If they wanted to work in the sort of stacking buff that Sirgog mentioned, the buff could just add a flat damage value, or a +% buff to base weapon damage, base damage or total damage and achieve the same effect.

And all of these would likely require less developer time, both in development and in chasing down the bugs that arise from the different systems.

[Shade]

Think of a boss fight where landing the killing blow a particular add grants a 30 second stacking 'Augmented Damage: +100%' effect (+1[W] to use Eladrin's nomenclature). This tech would let the Devs create a fight where the boss has unassailably high regeneration - until all your melees start to juggle a stack of 15 of those buffs, then they might be able to out-DPS the regeneration.


It's called power of the forge.

All this nonsense unexplicable stuff 99% of players will never understand isn't an improvement.

The teach already exists for percentile dmg boosts from special raid buffs.. Adding unexplicably complexities is utter uneccesary.

[Scraap]

It's called power of the forge.

All this nonsense unexplicable stuff 99% of players will never understand isn't an improvement.

The teach already exists for percentile dmg boosts from special raid buffs.. Adding unexplicably complexities is utter uneccesary.

Sounds like the objection is more to the wording of the explanation, than the standardization of proportionate die steps across custom types then. It is worded fairly oddly at present for a non-programmer, I suppose, and the percentiles rather than pure multipliers don't help matters, I'll give you that.

Still, if they're going to get serious about adding depth of options, one of the first things they absolutely need to do is review their outliers with cold hard comparative data.

Somewhat tangential, but if ya'll are doing a full baseline weapons review, we gonna see multi-dr breakers standardly implemented as the rahl's tech any time soon? (Looking at you short-sword and the like.)

[Argila]

So...

It seems the 'problem' here are eSOS, Kopesh and the Arti spell.

eSOS is powerfull, and it DESERVES to be. You have to spend considerable game time to get it and you need to be very lucky. How many do we know that have run 70+ eVON6 runs and are still missing the shard (or seal)? Doesnt this kind of work and dedication to get a single item deserves to be rewarded with the best game weapon available?

Kopesh, powerfull? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it seems to me the problem is not Kopesh but everything else. If you want to make the other weapons more atractive boost the other weapons. This will also make melee get more close to casters in DPS.

Arti spell, seems to me that you are trying to change what doesnt need to be changed again because of a single spell.
Just place more damage dice in the targeted weapon (as someone sujested). Simplier and does make the spell powerfull just the same.

This is not what is breaking the game and causing problems in our day by day play.
Lag and bugs are. Concentrate your efforts on that.

[quijenoth]

A longsword with a built-in Vertigo +2? I'm sure lots of people would be thrilled at that. ;)

A built in +2 vs combat maneuvers for weapons like the flail wouldn't be a bad idea though...

Actually why not just make khopeshes longswords that do an automatic trip attempt on a natural 20 (or critical hit) like the way the great crossbow has its built in knockdown chance?

You have shown you can do this with weapons so why not take it further? I hate the fact that one weapon rules them all and any changes to break that trend I'm 200% for.

Would open the way for whips, spiked chains and other exotic weapons too.

in fact how about the following?

Double Weapons (quarterstaff) - grant an additional attack (doublestrike) on a natural 20...

[quijenoth]

So...

It seems the 'problem' here are eSOS, Kopesh and the Arti spell.

eSOS is powerfull, and it DESERVES to be. You have to spend considerable game time to get it and you need to be very lucky. How many do we know that have run 70+ eVON6 runs and are still missing the shard (or seal)? Doesnt this kind of work and dedication to get a single item deserves to be rewarded with the best game weapon available? (kind of agree here but base damage is not a good way to "balance" a weapon. any future weapons to compete against the eSoS will have to match or improve on the eSoS, once that happens the eSoS is obsolite because of how difficult it is to aquire)

Kopesh, powerfull? Maybe yes, maybe no. But it seems to me the problem is not Kopesh but everything else. If you want to make the other weapons more atractive boost the other weapons. This will also make melee get more close to casters in DPS.
(Why? surely fixing 1 weapon is far less time consuming than fixing the other 40?! Khopesh is the only weapon that breaks the DnD ruleset so it is the logical choice to fix. sounds to me like you have a few khopesh builds your worried about being nerfed. I'll choose to ignore the caster vs. melee DPS comment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjBo4gUYIuc) in fear of completely derailing this already semi derailed thread.)


Arti spell, seems to me that you are trying to change what doesnt need to be changed again because of a single spell.
Just place more damage dice in the targeted weapon (as someone sujested). Simplier and does make the spell powerfull just the same.
(so you want deadly weapons to add 1d6 un-typed damage to the weapon? sounds simple enough to implement for sure but doesnt sound like a fun spell to me. I like the way the devs are going with the increased base damage multiplier so far TBH. although I forsee balance issues once again with certain weapons being used over others but they seem to already be aware of this and are making the effort to fix them BEFORE the spell goes live.)


This is not what is breaking the game and causing problems in our day by day play.
Lag and bugs are. Concentrate your efforts on that.
(no comment) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjBo4gUYIuc)


see above.

[sephiroth1084]

Khopeshes aren't as big a problem as people make them out to be.

They aren't that far ahead of scimitars or rapiers in terms of DPS, and if you want more crits rather than larger ones (ie Radiance), they aren't quite as good.
They cost a feat.

The big issue is that the other exotic weapons don't stack up well, and tend to not be worth a feat. It took the devs giving us a ridiculously stacked bastard sword that also grants a couple feats to generate some serious non-dwarves who choose an exotic weapon that isn't khopesh...and most of them aren't taking BS proficiency anyway.

If khopesh were 1d8, 19-20/x2 with +2 combat DCs, very few people would use them, because scimitars and rapiers would be much better DPS without costing a feat, and bastard swords and dwarven axes would be slightly better DPS normally, and much better when combined with THF feats.

And just to head off any strawmen...I don't have anyone that uses khopeshes.

[Xyfiel]

Deadly Weapons:
Adds x% weapon damage. This stacks with Racial and Class damage boosts.

Essentially a constant damage boost. Shouldn't need much new coding since damage boost is already in game, just change % and time remaining to spell duration instead of 20 seconds. Should work naturally with all weapons, even handwraps.


I always thought the best way to fix khopesh is since it has a curved blade to give it a 18-20 x2 profile. This lowers the crit profile from 8 to 6 yet still makes it the best one hander. Adding an attack/damage line for it to Elves since it is a curved blade would also make Elves a decent melee option.
Halfling = sneak, saves
Dwarf = toughness, saves, axes
Human = damage boost, feat, bastard sword, healing amp
H Elf = damage boost, dilettante, healing amp
H Orc = strength, power attack
Warforged = immunities, toughness, power attack
Drow = rapiers, shortswords
Elf = scimitar, falchion, khopesh

[Darkrok]

Deadly Weapons:
Adds x% weapon damage. This stacks with Racial and Class damage boosts.

I think what they're trying to avoid with the damage die increase is overly favoring the 'powerful' melee characters (barbarian, fighter, etc) over the more number-of-hit based characters (rangers, monks, rogues, etc). The much higher strength numbers of barbarians and fighters skew a percentage-based increase in their favor versus a damage die increase.

[Cyr]

The major potential pitfall I see here is the unintended nerfing/buffing of things that such a wide scale standardization entails.

For example, this scaling will be a nerf to certain ranged dps options which is the only thing in game currently that is effected by the static base damage number.

I presume the goal is not to nerf ranged combat at all considering how poor it still is in game.

Khopesh's gain a decent boost from this on the other hand. From your own statements this seems like something you are not happy about...which is a shame considering how bad melee combat is right now.

Honestly I do not see the point of this whole excercise. I could understand if this was a clever way of making more weapons competitive depending upon the situation, but with this standardization thing I am not seeing that happening here.

For those interested...

GS Heavy Repeater (currently) 2d8 base damage = 9 average damage per hit or 18 with PBS

GS Heavy Repeater (proposed) 1d10*1.5 damage = 8.25 average damage per hit, 1d10*2.5 = 13.75 with PBS

So not even considering deadly weapons added on that is a loss of 4.25 damage per hit while in PBS range.

[Kmnh]

You could straight up double the melee DPS and casters would still be more desirable for 95% of the content.


DoTs and SLAs have completely changed the way the game works.

[devilfunk]

Removed.

[Inkblack]

+2[W]?

Eladrin, you got some 4e in my 3.5...

[Snarglefrump]

We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

How will all of this apply to handwraps?

When building a unified system, it's good to ponder how you'll bring the special cases to live under the same roof, right? :-)

[Eladrin]

So after over a year of playing DDO, grinding for my first eSOS it's getting nerfed? Keep up the great work! Seriously, I wish you would stop tweeking with the core of the game that we all know and build characters around, you're screwing people out of a lot of time and hard work!
Instead of doing 5d6 damage, it'll do 4d6 + (2d6/2). That's not really a nerf.

This is mostly a behind the scenes change to give us another channel for buffs, to make weapon upgrade schemes easier to work with, and to give us more flexibility with the generation of future weapons.

[Dragaer]

Instead of doing 5d6 damage, it'll do 4d6 + (2d6/2). That's not really a nerf.

This is mostly a behind the scenes change to give us another channel for buffs, to make weapon upgrade schemes easier to work with, and to give us more flexibility with the generation of future weapons.

Stay unhappy with the Khopesh then :cool:

[grodon9999]

Instead of doing 5d6 damage, it'll do 4d6 + (2d6/2). That's not really a nerf.

.

Forgive my stupidness . . . but that looks the same to me. What am i missing?

[voodoogroves]

Forgive my stupidness . . . but that looks the same to me. What am i missing?

Boosts to the base damage will only multiple the 4d6, and not the full 5d6

[Bogenbroom]

Forgive my stupidness . . . but that looks the same to me. What am i missing?

Don't think you are missing anything... no functional change.

"Instead of doing 5d6 damage, it'll do 4d6 + (2d6/2)." Suggests that the last 2d6/2 could be later subject to buffs/debuffs so as to modify only part of a weapon instead of the whole thing.

Think of it like stat bonuses... they changes a +6 CHR hat into a HAT with a +5 enchantment bonus and a +1 exceptional bonus.

Thank is my take at least.

[Scraap]

The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6.


Instead of doing 5d6 damage, it'll do 4d6 + (2d6/2).



Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.


So to make sure were on the same page...



2d6(base) + 2d6(modifier) + 2d6/2(percentile modifier)

for a total of 2.5[w](w being the d6s).

Deadly weapons adds another base step, so:



2d6(base) + 2d6(Deadly) + 2d6(modifier) + 2d6/2(percentile modifier)

that about sum it up?

[oweieie]

Make it add d6 puncturing damage to the weapon. Done.

[sephiroth1084]

The major potential pitfall I see here is the unintended nerfing/buffing of things that such a wide scale standardization entails.

For example, this scaling will be a nerf to certain ranged dps options which is the only thing in game currently that is effected by the static base damage number.

I presume the goal is not to nerf ranged combat at all considering how poor it still is in game.
That is a problem, but a standardized system may (HA!) give them a tool for buffing ranged combat in another way (HAHA!).


Khopesh's gain a decent boost from this on the other hand. From your own statements this seems like something you are not happy about...which is a shame considering how bad melee combat is right now.
You could straight up double the melee DPS and casters would still be more desirable for 95% of the content.


DoTs and SLAs have completely changed the way the game works.
The game won't remain in this state, so going around simply handing more goodies to the stuff already ahead of the curve on the melee end is just going to create more problems down the road when the devs figure out a way of bringing everybody closer to being balanced again. And that was a comment from Eladrin regarding khopesh relative to other melee weapons; should the best 1-hander gain an even bigger advantage vs. most of the other 1-handers?


Honestly I do not see the point of this whole excercise. I could understand if this was a clever way of making more weapons competitive depending upon the situation, but with this standardization thing I am not seeing that happening here.

For those interested...

GS Heavy Repeater (currently) 2d8 base damage = 9 average damage per hit or 18 with PBS

GS Heavy Repeater (proposed) 1d10*1.5 damage = 8.25 average damage per hit, 1d10*2.5 = 13.75 with PBS

So not even considering deadly weapons added on that is a loss of 4.25 damage per hit while in PBS range.That doesn't look good. :(




So after over a year of playing DDO, grinding for my first eSOS it's getting nerfed? Keep up the great work! Seriously, I wish you would stop tweeking with the core of the game that we all know and build characters around, you're screwing people out of a lot of time and hard work!Not unless you considered Deadly Weapons to be an integral reason for your having grinded out an ESoS...

The weapon goes from 5d6 base damage to...5d6 base damage in all respects.


Instead of doing 5d6 damage, it'll do 4d6 + (2d6/2). That's not really a nerf.

This is mostly a behind the scenes change to give us another channel for buffs, to make weapon upgrade schemes easier to work with, and to give us more flexibility with the generation of future weapons.
My questions to you are:


How long will this take you to work on?
How much time will this draw away from other, more important activities that development and QA are working on?
How does this actually differ from giving a flat bonus, or even a flat bonus based on weapon type (say, +2 for a khopesh, +6 for a longsword, etc...), or applying the percentage bonus to the base similar to how the new Damage Boost works?
Clearly this isn't going to be entirely behind the scenes, and although many of us can make out what the point is, and what the results are, there have been several people in this thread up in arms due to being entirely incapable of understanding the proposal. I know that you're fiddling with trying to get the right description for it (I think Sirgog's latest round of suggestions were the right fit), but do you feel okay about so much confusion through your playerbase?
Can you see this getting implemented without a lot of bugs? I don't mean the sort of standard number of issues that come with a change, but a lot, since this is going to be playing around with a great variety of different weapons with different base damages, and different systems from standard items, to greensteel, to epics, to named weapons with non-standard base damage dice... Maybe this will be a lot easier to implement than I'm thinking, but I can't see that not causing many, many problems.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not generally one to say, "Don't do it because it probably won't come out well initially," but this looks like a lot more trouble than it 's worth by a longshot, at least from the player perspective. Any chance you could elaborate on the why behind the reasoning for this?

[BruceTheHoon]

Forgive my stupidness . . . but that looks the same to me. What am i missing?

It's a difference between 2d3 and 1d5+1, or more obvious one, 21d20 and d400+20

[baii]

So after over a year of playing DDO, grinding for my first eSOS it's getting nerfed? Keep up the great work! Seriously, I wish you would stop tweeking with the core of the game that we all know and build characters around, you're screwing people out of a lot of time and hard work!

How is if nerf when Deadly Weapon not even live before?

[devilfunk]

Instead of doing 5d6 damage, it'll do 4d6 + (2d6/2). That's not really a nerf.

This is mostly a behind the scenes change to give us another channel for buffs, to make weapon upgrade schemes easier to work with, and to give us more flexibility with the generation of future weapons.

Eladrin, please accept my humble apology. It seems that contempt prior to investigation got the best of me, it will not happen again.

[Shade]

This is mostly a behind the scenes change to give us another channel for buffs, to make weapon upgrade schemes easier to work with, and to give us more flexibility with the generation of future weapons.

Translation:

Caster are overpowered, and we love it.

This is just yet another way to nerf two handed melee.

Call it what you will, this is what my ESoS said on live today:
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/5316/esos.jpg

I won't see that in some time. That is a nerf. It is that simple.

Until i asked for silver weapons instead, because its an inferior spell for what we were running (shroud). For when it was used, it didnt break the game, it barely speed up part1. We still failed shroud elite despite our so called overpowered spell.

You are nerfing meleee, it's not behind the scenes, its in our face. Casters are insanely overpowered and you nerf melee every update. We don't deserve it.

Massive nerfs to 2handed melee happen far too often, and they we're never once justified:
-ESoS nerf #1 - x4 to x3.
-U5 MASSIVE DPS nerfs, for everyone, but two handed got hit the hardest, despite the constant talk of TWF getting the focus
-U7 - Halforcs two handed animation deemed too powerful and nerfed.
-U9 - Unjustified, unexplicably, undocumented nerf to ALL two handed combat tactic animations (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337012) (yet not monks, and only partially twf)
-U11 Past life nerf
-U13 ESoS nerf #2
-U15 - Yet more nerfs!?

Whens ESoS nerf #3 scheduled?

Will the patern of THF nerfing every major update continue?

Why?

Try to justify it all you want, the fact you CONSTANTLY nerf and never consider the players impacted at all is just really poor form. You can fix the balance without nerfing, you never make an effort. It's all negative, when it could be postive. It doesn't have to be this way, you can make an effort to balance the game without doing it in a negative way.

Buff the other weapons to be in line with esos, don't nerf it. Stop nerfing two handed combat. Unnerf the combat tactics.

[Skavenaps]

Yep that changes are good. Nerf eSoS was a must. Its just a stupid farm on eVoN where you can be rushed by your guild, its pointless it remain the best weapon on the game.

Bring variety.

[Argila]

Yep that changes are good. Nerf eSoS was a must. Its just a stupid farm on eVoN where you can be rushed by your guild, its pointless it remain the best weapon on the game.

Bring variety.

Variety is good, but not at the expense of others.
If you think it is stupid, don't go after it. But don't ignore the work/mouths spend by others to get it just because you didn't care about it.

[WolfSpirit]

Someone in game once said to me "That Shade, just mention ANYTHING about his ESoS and watch him get all heated up"
Yup, to the word.
Actually, much more was said about both the wep & player and their Barbarian focused dance but no place for all that here.

Balance= A state of equilibrium or equipoise.

NOTHING balanced about it. Period.
Im CERTAIN things would be done differently if they knew then what they know now!
(toughening skin vs backlash)
:)


REDUCE THE COMPLEXITY???

SeriouslY?

Your going through this massive amount of labor and trouble because your worried about 1 epic weapon becoming SLIGHTLY more powerful.

I can't even begin to get your logic.

The ESoS is the most powerful weapon in the game. Players taht make good use of it deal average damage in the 200-250 point range a swing (cunting bonus dice and averaging in crits). And your worried that adding a whole +3d6 on that will break the game? Seriously?
Meanwhile nearly everyone agrees that melee are very far behind in the balance curve atm, and artificers as well.. Yet favored souls and casters are EXTREMELY powerful, able to push out insane DPS a melee can never hope to match..

I really fail to get your logic here.

I used the deadly weapons enhanced ESoS on lammania a lot (and now on a live a bit now you released the spell) and its in no way, shape or form at all game breaking. It changes nothing for me really.. With the hugely buffed raidboss hp, raidbosses take an extremely long time to take down, teh fact im still dealing less DPS then I did years ago in Update 4 is just plain depressing.
Trash mobs die fast either way.
A whole 10.5 dmg increase when my average is already 250+ and I can crit in the 1500+ range is utterly absurd to even begin to consider a serious impact on gameplay, and requireing such massive, complex changes, that players will not be fans on.

Yes it will be more useful to the low strength melee types using weapons, but by most accounts they are desperate in need of a boost anyways.

Especially for the fact your doing it because of one VERY rare weapon..

Yet your breakin the game balance for the two most commonly used Greensteel weapons taht are already well regarded as far more powerful then the rest:
Khopsh and Falcion.

So what have you accomplsiehd by this change:
-Nerfed fighters and barbarians, classes already low on the totem pole atm.
-Nerfed artificers - your brand new class your trying to sell... Great.
-Buffing the already broken greensteel weapons and nerfing the ones that werent broken.
-Vastly increased the complexity of understanding an items tooltip.

I see nothing positive form this nerf. Huge waste of developer time because you guys are afraid of a meeger bonus on ESoS.

And at this time too? When it seems like 95% of the player base is calling out for you to stop changing things and focus on fixing bugs for an update?

One of the worst ideas i've heard from you in a while Eladrin.

Scrap it, stop wasting your time on something taht won't accomplsh anything positive. Just leave deadly weapons as is and put in the scrolls, it's not going to hurt anything, and infact will improve game balance.

The only other thing important in weapon damage lately is the fact rare/unique and powerful 1handers to match the esos dont exist. Add one to the game in U13 and youll make a lot of players happy.. This complex nerf make anyone happy.

[Darkrok]

Translation:

Caster are overpowered, and we love it.

snip

Try to justify it all you want, the fact you CONSTANTLY nerf and never consider the players impacted at all is just really poor form. You can fix the balance without nerfing, you never make an effort. It's all negative, when it could be postive. It doesn't have to be this way, you can make an effort to balance the game without doing it in a negative way.

Buff the other weapons to be in line with esos, don't nerf it. Stop nerfing two handed combat. Unnerf the combat tactics.

Take a breath man. You're going off the deep end because it's your eSoS. We all get that, we know you, and we knew this would happen. But you know that the eSoS is out of whack with regards to other weapons.

If this were the only step that ever happens and they don't turn around and do things to bring melee up toward casters a bit then I'll say you were right. But given the dev posts in this thread I think it's clear that the plan is as follows:

1) Standardize weapons so that crazy weapons like the eSoS scale with future/current changes to the game (like Deadly Weapons)
2) Use that standardized framework to buff melee in a way that doesn't favor a single weapon over all others.
3) ???
4) Profit!

Give them time to do this right and I'm guessing you'll be pleasantly surprised at the results. But they need to be able to build the framework in order to do what we both agree is needed - buff melee (and all melee, not just eSoS wielding Barbarians) to bring them up in to line with casters/divines as opposed to nerfing casters to bring them down to melee's level.

[Cyr]

Take a breath man. You're going off the deep end because it's your eSoS. We all get that, we know you, and we knew this would happen. But you know that the eSoS is out of whack with regards to other weapons.


Yes, the eSoS is out of whack for most weapons.

However, eSoS wielders are still behind casters.

So if the best for melee is behind (and the best for ranged is behind the best of melee) then it should seem pretty obvious that attention should be paid to either the actually top of the pack (casters) or the bottom of the pack (ranged and most melee weapons) and not the middle of the pack (eSoS).

Oh, and this comes from someone with zero eSoS's on their account.

[Eladrin]

2) Use that standardized framework to buff melee in a way that doesn't favor a single weapon over all others.
Specifically, the current proposal allows us to do things such as "X epic tokens increases the tier of an epic weapon by 1".

[Darkrok]

Yes, the eSoS is out of whack for most weapons.

However, eSoS wielders are still behind casters.

So if the best for melee is behind (and the best for ranged is behind the best of melee) then it should seem pretty obvious that attention should be paid to either the actually top of the pack (casters) or the bottom of the pack (ranged and most melee weapons) and not the middle of the pack (eSoS).

Oh, and this comes from someone with zero eSoS's on their account.

I agree with you, but again I'm not saying that all melee don't need buffed. I'm saying that sometimes you have to take one small step backward (one buff will be nerfed for a few weapons) to take one large step forward:


The current proposal allows us to do things such as "X epic tokens increases the tier of an epic weapon by 1".

Things like this would start bringing melee up, but doing so in a way that doesn't widen the gap between eSoS and other weapons. I'm honestly fine both with the gap between eSoS and all weapons and khopeshes and all other twf weapons. What I'm not fine with is additions to the game that creates an even wider gap. If anything, I'd like future changes that narrow that gap, just like a Bard Song narrows the gap since it adds a smaller percentage of overall damage to the eSoS than the other weapons.

[sephiroth1084]

Specifically, the current proposal allows us to do things such as "X epic tokens increases the tier of an epic weapon by 1".
The implication here is that we could spend some number of epic tokens to increase the damage die improvement by a step, but not through slotting the weapon?

As an aside, if you are looking into more ways to make use of epic tokens, can we either get a significant decrease in the number of tokens required to slot an item or an increase in token income (more dropped from kills, back to minimum 1/epic completion, token fragments/tokens/augment crystals in optional epic chests)? And possibly some sort of return or discount for clearing and reslotting an item, such as from having to reslot something after converting it to an updated version?

[Scraap]

Specifically, the current proposal allows us to do things such as "X epic tokens increases the tier of an epic weapon by 1".

That a replacement for the +7 redslot, or an addendum?

[grodon9999]

Massive nerfs to 2handed melee happen far too often, and they we're never once justified:
-ESoS nerf #1 - x4 to x3.
-U5 MASSIVE DPS nerfs, for everyone, but two handed got hit the hardest, despite the constant talk of TWF getting the focus
-U7 - Halforcs two handed animation deemed too powerful and nerfed.
-U9 - Unjustified, unexplicably, undocumented nerf to ALL two handed combat tactic animations (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337012) (yet not monks, and only partially twf)
-U11 Past life nerf
-U13 ESoS nerf #2
-U15 - Yet more nerfs!?



Where did the ridiculously over-powered spamable Supreme cleave com into play? Saying all they do is nerf THFing is nonsense.

But casters are over-powered right now, melee needs more mojo.

[Darkrok]

As an aside, if you are looking into more ways to make use of epic tokens, can we either get a significant decrease in the number of tokens required to slot an item or an increase in token income (more dropped from kills, back to minimum 1/epic completion, token fragments/tokens/augment crystals in optional epic chests)? And possibly some sort of return or discount for clearing and reslotting an item, such as from having to reslot something after converting it to an updated version?

I've got the items to make 2-3 epics. I haven't bothered yet because I don't have the tokens to fully slot one of them. I definitely think an adjustment has been in line for some time and any changes to require more tokens would just make that even more important.

[sephiroth1084]

Where did the ridiculously over-powered spamable Supreme cleave com into play? Saying all they do is nerf THFing is nonsense.

But casters are over-powered right now, melee needs more mojo.
I tend to just ignore Axer when he's on an ESoS/THF/barbarian nerf rant tear, especially when the rant contains some real BS, like fixing the Barb PL feat that functioned in a way that differed from its description and was acknowledged as not WAI by a dev on more than one occasion being a nerf...especially when they made it fit into existing builds a bit better, even if the functionality is not as good as it was when it was granting hidden effects.

Overbalancing melee effects now isn't going to help in the future when the devs are trying to fight a way to bring balance to the two again.

[Darkrok]

Overbalancing melee effects now isn't going to help in the future when the devs are trying to fight a way to bring balance to the two again.

Exactly. And the dev's sound like they honestly intend to try and bring melee up some. Heck, how many artificer spells make spellcasters better? I can think of one off-hand (the 1.15 multiplier to lightning damage on the motes spell) while Arti's get a stack of spells to enhance melee.

The balance has been tilted toward casters for quite awhile now. If it takes a few update cycles to balance things but it's done well I'm willing to wait a few more for Turbine to get it right.

[Rawel_San]

It's called power of the forge.

All this nonsense unexplicable stuff 99% of players will never understand isn't an improvement.
Don't go judging all players. Not everyone has the inteligence of a three year old.

The teach already exists for percentile dmg boosts from special raid buffs.. Adding unexplicably complexities is utter uneccesary.
In what way is this inexplicable? It's probably the slickest way of standardizing weapons and allowing reasonable
stacking. Just because it's not "Hulk smash with eSoS" doesn't mean it's bad.

[Havok.cry]

Shade you do realize that the extension of your arm everyone else calls an epic sword of shadows will still be the best melee weapon in the game, right? Have you picked up on the fact that standardization like this will reduce the number of bugs effecting melee, AND allow them to play around with more melee buffs.

[Cetus]

Well, I agree with some of what Shade is saying:

The speed and tactic animation nerfs were undoubtedly a low blow to melee. However, in sight of the barbarian past life nerf, they did receive a significant boost to their efficiency with the damage boost and supreme cleave changes.

With the advent of alchemical handwraps and the stance pass for U12, monks are definitely receiving efficiency upgrades as well.

Fighters are slowly waning in their efficiency as their competing melee classes are receiving adjustments while the only efficiency upgrade fighters received was an improvement to improved sunder.

The esos is the only fighting chance a two hander has in competing with the khopesh wielders. And, for that reason, it is incredibly unstable in this game- constantly a target for adjustment.

If the esos is going to be adjusted down, you are creating more reason to migrate towards khopesh, despite the effort expended on the esos. Furthermore, there is absolutely no two handed fighting alternative that can compare with the khopeshes- greataxes have been screwed since the esos was first released- make them x4 at the very least, if they are going to bear such a crummy crit range.

Please, be very careful with how you implement this weapon pass- because the implications of a screw up can be pretty bad- as I'm sure you fully realize.

[Darkrok]

greataxes have been screwed since the esos was first released- make them x4 at the very least, if they are going to bear such a crummy crit range.

I've long thought that greataxes having a x3 was, while in keeping with 3.5 rules, not very realistic rules-wise. I agree that x4 would make more sense but...


Please, be very careful with how you implement this weapon pass- because the implications of a screw up can be pretty bad- as I'm sure you fully realize.

...what's really needed is greensteel deconstruction. Even if they get the weapon pass completely right there will be people that have the wrong weapon for their build once the pass is complete. It's past time for deconstruction.

[meathook2008]

Before we start fixing the eSoS and other such weapons..... lets try making the spell WORKING on all types of weapons first. (rangers/arties/ crazypeople who like to throw things all across Stromreach are sad cause Deadly weapons will NOT work for them). Please consider fixing this AS WELL as doing this Melee pass (possibly before U13.... id like to experiance the power im giving to melees on my arty).




(in a Semirelated note.... Will this also work on pets/summons/charmed mobs? (as in Hound))? Tried it last night and it seemed to help, but I could have been imagining it.

[mroks28]

developers please stop worrying about nerfing melee classes. The deadly weapons spell is a nice way so melees can output more damage even though they wont even output 1/2 the dps that a caster will output even with this spell so please dont nerf any classes just fix the things that need to be fixed (server lag) and leave the other stuff alone especially this because it's not that much of a priority one problem i have with the developers is that they do not prioritize the games needs. Do not try to balance the game because every time you do it gets even more unbalanced just focus on fixing known issues which deadly weapons is not a bad thing it helps the players enjoy the game more and kill stuff that is what this game is about killing and completing your objectives. In conclusion I say stop nerfing the game and leave the things that work fine alone. Thanks.

[smatt]

Have you picked up on the fact that standardization like this will reduce the number of bugs effecting melee

Wow..... Now that's one thin limb you just crawled out on :D

[NaturalHazard]

REDUCE THE COMPLEXITY???

(cunting bonus dice and averaging in crits). .

Funnyiest spelling mistake evar? :rolleyes:

[Oakianus]

Buff the other weapons to be in line with esos, don't nerf it.

It's not a nerf. It's the fixing of a bug to make sure that things are WAI. They were lazy when they coded their intended damage dice, they know it, and they're now fixing that coding to be in line with what they always intended in the first place. That's all.

Take a step back and a deep breath, man.

[Iwinbyrollup]

Casters are definitely more powerful than melees, but I think letting DW have the full effect on eSoS isn't the answer. Since simply doubling the damage dice has a greater effect on weapons with more damage dice, it improves eSoS more compared to other weapons. It's already the top melee weapon; why does it need to be even topper (made-up words ftw)?

If they improve melees to not be so inferior to casters, it would be nice to see an improvement that hits different weapons relatively equally rather than boosting the best melee weapon up even higher. That simply pushes one playstyle over any other.

[jcoffey]

Just chose DW as a spell and it still didn't work for Ranged or Melee on me or anyone else.

[TreknaQudane]

Just chose DW as a spell and it still didn't work for Ranged or Melee on me or anyone else.

It won't show the extra dice on the item or in the inventory tab. It does however work for melee.

[gloopygloop]

Translation:

Caster are overpowered, and we love it.

This is just yet another way to nerf two handed melee.

Deadly Weapons is a buff. It is a buff that didn't exist before now. With the change to base weapon damage multipliers, it will not be as much of a buff as it would have been originally, but it is still a buff.

I agree that melee in general needs a helping hand in some areas right now. But saying that a change to a buff that doesn't exist yet is another nerf is just rediculous.

[Havok.cry]

Wow..... Now that's one thin limb you just crawled out on :D

OK Ill fix it, should say: Standardized coding SHOULD simplify things and reduce bugs :)

[smatt]

OK Ill fix it, should say: Standardized coding SHOULD simplify things and reduce bugs :)


OK, better now...

Really though, I understand where Eladrin is coming from on this. It's sjtu yet another major systems change, when the systems guys ahve numverous OLD systems that aren't even complete yet... Ones that have been waiting for years *hint hint... And while we can say "Well it will simplify and streamline things" I say.. Yep and those are always the things that end up being messy and problematic becasue they SHOULD go well and be easy as pie at Grandma's.


Game's stilla mess right now, too many bugs..... Too many unifinished stuff.. If they wait till the newest coolest to finish things like the PRE's well.. They will never get done..

[oradafu]

Am I the only person that thinks when the Devs say they are fixing things to help melees, I picture this guy: http://theprostateczech.com/ ?

[Kyllgoth]

Oh? What would they have crafted otherwise in the absolute world of the kopesh?

You know what other weapon was adjusted because it was horribly skewed to the point where it was more of a question of "why make anything else"?

Epic Sword of Shadows.

And DDO continued on.

Id like to see diversity amongst weapons....for it actually to be a choice rather than 90% of weapons not being used because there is one that is obviously brokenly superior in all ways.

And how is having one or two, or maybe a handful of very powerful weapons like eSOS any different than ANY other game ANY of us have ever played since SNES....The game just isnt as fun if there is one ultimate weapon that is the end all be all of the rest. I highly doubt you have an eSOS if you are making comments like that. At a certain point in the game (lvl 20?) There should be a very small handful of weapons that you SHOULD be looking for....DDO spends far too much time worrying about everyone getting jealous that Timmys sword is stronger than Tommy's. Tommy should work his butt off like Timmy did. Period. If you think someone is overpowered and you are in a party with them its pure jealousy and its disgusting. THEY ARE ON YOUR TEAM. The Packers NEVER said Brett Favre was too good!

[quijenoth]

I still dont get this "melees should be as powerful as casters" mumbo jumbo.

lets just quote the first line of the PHB...

WIZARD
A few unintelligible words and fleeting gestures carry more power than a battleaxe, when they are the workds and gestrures of a wizard.
This is D&D still and if you ever played D&D you know full well that a wizard by level 20 can kill a fighter in a single round!

The fact is wizards have a limited resource melees do not. and this is the main factor that defines melee power versus caster power.

When I think of a wizard in D&D i think that his roll is to follow until his power is required. the wizard is there to help with the big fights. D&D is a 20 level progression with even steps per level. spellcasters however have a 2/1 9 level spell progression that climbs exponentially. maths wise this looks a bit like this...

level progression 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
spell progression 1 - 3 - 6 - 10 - 15 - 21 - 28 - 36 - 45
(data is representational only)

Now the problem lately is 2 fold.

1) Recent abilities given to casters has extended their power via cheap innates and echos of power. allowing them to continue their DPS over much longer periods.

2) The reletive ease to complete a section of dungeon from more recent packs before reaching a rest shrine has allowed casters to burn spell points. this has made many recent quests very easy to solo for casters.

Now I am well aware that this is an MMO and that a degree of balace must be maintained to present a fun experience to all, but right now the game is fun (and shade if you argue that your melee isnt fun because your underpowered to a wizard then why you still playing?).

As a melee i like the fact a wizard can instantly kill the group of orcs in front of us, I also like the fact the wizard runs away when an iron golem causes him to pale. Thats when as a melee I can shine with my adamantine weapon.

IMHO the issue isnt with casters vs melees, its more about epic content vs melees and epic content vs casters.

(thread-derailment imminent)

Simply put melees cannot function (efficiently) on epics without a healer while casters have all the tools to at least survive epics.

Melees do need something but increasing their DPS is not the answer.
Epics do need fixing but increasing the mobs HPs is also not the answer.

Epics to me are too much like raids in other MMOs - they just drag out the game with inflated hit points.

I've discussed before that epics should be challenging in more ways than just the hit points. new epic objectives need to be added (perhaps with timers) and special epic bosses too.

I'll give you an example of what to me an epic quest should be...
taking Black Loch as an example.

First Epic objective. "stop the first apprentise before he finishes his ritual"

the apprentice is performing a ritual in his room - you have a timer on your screen. you must clear to him and stop the ritual before time runs out (similar to madstone crater giant crystal shattering).

In this instance he does not engage in combat but is instead protected by a locked door with waves of mobs that respawn outside his room. the door has to be picked 5 consecutive times while the group tries to keep the aggro off him from the mobs turning up. Once the door opens the mobs inside (now red named) join the fight and must be killed. any mobs remaining gain immunity to all magic thanks to the auras of the red named (each named provides a single protection type, a healer gives Death ward, a wizard gives major globe of invulnerability, and a ranger gives freedom of movement. Thus killing the cleric alows the wizard to wail the additional mobs, killing the ranger allows them to be immobilized.)

Once inside the room you simply kill the apprentice before time elapses.

Second Epic objective. "stop the second apprentise before he finishes his ritual"
New timer starts once you open the green door. same situation as the first.

Third Epic objective. "stop the third apprentise before he finishes his ritual"
New timer starts after opening the Red Door.

Optional Epic Objective. "Stop the flow of corpes." An alter is placed inside the failed experiements room that raises new undead every 30 seconds until you destroy it.

Fourth Epic Objective. "stop the last apprentise before he finishes his ritual"
New timer starts after opening the Blue Door.

Fifth Epic Objective. "stop preparations to set sail."
Mobs on the boat spawn while untargetable zombies rush to 4 riggings and begin prepairing "repairing" them for sail. you have to keep the rigging low health while fending off the mobs that spawn. Once 2 riggings have been reduced to 0 health (requireing 2 melee to keep them down) Dheren Kiettuc spawns and joins the fight. If all riggings become full health before Dheren is killed you fail the quest. killing the necromancer completes the quest even if the riggings arent all 0 health.

Heres the catch - each epic objective is timed but doesnt result in quest failure - each one completed on time grants an additional chest in the treasure room and increases the epic token fragments you recieve. (It could also grant an additional epic chest if you complete all objectives). Mobs are scaled to 25 without the inflated hit points and damage (here numbers of mobs outweighs single mob boosts).

[thandros]

or thet could make it so that Crit only effects Base damage +damage from str etc is added AFTER base and crits are applied ). Then they could start lowing mobs hps and fortification )i.e gs gaxe (3d6x3)+22 instead id (3d6+22)x3. though people would be upset to lose there big numbers ) spells ) haha

[Cetus]

[QUOTE=quijenoth;4178744][color=lightgreen]I still dont get this "melees should be as powerful as casters" mumbo jumbo.

lets just quote the first line of the PHB...

This is D&D still and if you ever played D&D you know full well that a wizard by level 20 can kill a fighter in a single round!

The fact is wizards have a limited resource melees do not. and this is the main factor that defines melee power versus caster power.

[QUOTE]

Well, actually, melee have limited resources too. A fighter running out of power surges clickies, haste boosts, or a barb running out of rages and damage boosts is bad news. Except, casters have all the pots in the world to drink- not to mention the advent of SLAs for sorcs that are quite powerful.

how about turbine continues milking us for money to buy rage and haste/damage boost restore pots!

I would install a regen mechanic for boosts at the very least- that way melee can be more efficient in utilizing themselves to their maximum potentials just the way casters do.

Then were even now.

[Robai]

If I understand correctly Deadly Weapons spell initially was supposed to double base damage of weapons.
As a consequence, weapons with bigger base damage gets more benefit than other weapons.

That's an interesting idea and I like it, because it brings more variety to the game, I mean that it's not +2 dmg or +10% dmg, it's the bonus which depends on the weapon.

This specific spell doesn't increase damage of additional effects like Holy, Burst, Blast, Bleed, etc.
Then give artificers another spell (like Deadly Weapon Effects), which doubles (or even triples) the damage of additional effects on that weapon and everyone will be happy since artificer could buff your weapons with the most useful for you spell.

This way nobody should cry about eSoS being too much buffed by Deadly Weapons.

More variations:
Deadly Weapons = doubles weapon's base damage
Deadly Weapon Effects = doubles damage of all additional effects (Holy, Burst, Blast, Bleed, etc.)
Deadly Weapon Elemental Effects = triples damage of elemental damage (Fire, Lightning, Acid, Cold)
Deadly Weapon Alignment Effects = triples damage of alignment damage (Good, Evil, Chaotic, Lawful)
(or it could be the same spell Deadly Weapon, but you can choose, like Resist Energy spell works)

[Shade]

The Epic Antique Greataxe is actually planned to be a unique case, at 2[1d20]. Its average damage should increase by a small amount.


Most greensteel items are significantly weaker than 1.5[W]. 28 of them are buffed with this proposal, 2 are unchanged, and 7 become slightly weaker.

How about the Epic Xuum?
It's the rarest and hardest two hander in the game to get, far harder then the ESoS.. It really should be far more powerful then it currently is. You should give it a similar damage boost.

Same goes with the Epic whirlwind, tho it at least serves some utility purpose.. Xuum is purely a dps wepaon.

[mroks28]

How about the Epic Xuum?
It's the rarest and hardest two hander in the game to get, far harder then the ESoS.. It really should be far more powerful then it currently is. You should give it a similar damage boost.

Same goes with the Epic whirlwind, tho it at least serves some utility purpose.. Xuum is purely a dps wepaon.

shade the exuum is probably one of the best 2 handers in the game it accually will out dps the esos if your a fighter but on a barb the esos still reigns supreme, but i agree the sands items do need to be buffed up and the only reason exuum is close is because of the incineration proc which adds about 15 to each swing if you go by the percentage other than that its not a very good item and needs a buff indeed and the epic whirlwind is a good weapons with bad dmg it also deserves a little more attention but not too much because of the utility it has these 2 weapons should get a dmg boost according to the difficulty of obtaining them.

These 2 weapons will receive minimum benefit from deadly weapons so how about buff them instead of nerf other items

[Shade]

shade the exuum is probably one of the best 2 handers in the game it accually will out dps the esos if your a fighter but on a barb the esos still reigns supreme, but i agree the sands items do need to be buffed up and the only reason exuum is close is because of the incineration proc which adds about 15 to each swing if you go by the percentage other than that its not a very good item and needs a buff indeed and the epic whirlwind is a good weapons with bad dmg it also deserves a little more attention but not too much because of the utility it has these 2 weapons should get a dmg boost according to the difficulty of obtaining them.

These 2 weapons will receive minimum benefit from deadly weapons so how about buff them instead of nerf other items

No it isn't. Not even close.

Incineration is one of the worst shroud procs there is. The exact stats have been datamined and are 100% accurately deteremined now.

They are 2% chance of 200+8d20 Fire damage (average 284 per proc, or 5.68 per hit).

Even if it was 5% like we used to think.. It would still nto be anywhere near esos.

Also theres almost no difference in whats better in terms of ftr/bbn weight towards the weapon. Bbns get xtra multipliers, fighters get enhacne threat range, both benefit massively from having a huge base dice instead of static bonus dice.

This is evne ignoring the fact its +4 more to hit, which is MASSIVE. and to hit does matter no matter what people will try to tell you.

[mroks28]

No it isn't. Not even close.

Incineration is one of the worst shroud procs there is. The exact stats have been datamined and are 100% accurately deteremined now.

They are 2% chance of 200+8d20 Fire damage (average 284 per proc, or 5.68 per hit).

Even if it was 5% like we used to think.. It would still nto be anywhere near esos.

Also theres almost no difference in whats better in terms of ftr/bbn weight towards the weapon. Bbns get xtra multipliers, fighters get enhacne threat range, both benefit massively from having a huge base dice instead of static bonus dice.

This is evne ignoring the fact its +4 more to hit, which is MASSIVE. and to hit does matter no matter what people will try to tell you.

I was unaware of this accually i thought it added 15 average dmg per swing as what it was thought to be before well now that i do know this the exuum isnt even as good as the eag well i was planning on getting an exuum but now that that information has been given to me totally not worth it. and that is just with the incineration proc thus putting it even further behind esos and lower than the eag and yes the +4 to hit is great .. thanks for this information wasnt aware of it

[danlan]

How about the Epic Xuum?
It's the rarest and hardest two hander in the game to get, far harder then the ESoS.. It really should be far more powerful then it currently is. You should give it a similar damage boost.

Same goes with the Epic whirlwind, tho it at least serves some utility purpose.. Xuum is purely a dps wepaon.

Totally agree, dedicated people on eATDQ should get some real incentives.

[dTarkanan]

No it isn't. Not even close.

Incineration is one of the worst shroud procs there is. The exact stats have been datamined and are 100% accurately deteremined now.

They are 2% chance of 200+8d20 Fire damage (average 284 per proc, or 5.68 per hit).

Where is this datamined information? I'd like to see the other proc rates.

[Yan_PL]

I like the standardization of weapon damage bases.

From what I understood:
normal weapon will do 1[W]
GS weapon will do 1.5[W]
alchemical weapon will do 1.75[W]
epic weapons will do +1[W]

few exceptions, like thornlord, antique greataxe, will have changed [W] - increased die step. Does that mean the base non-epic Antique greataxe will be 1d20?
Sword of shadow is currently 1.5[W]. eSoS is 2.5[W]. Deadly Weapons eSoS = 3.5[W]. makes sense.

will alchemical tier III make item "epic", thus making alchemical tier III 2.75[W]?
I'd rather like to see it this way: Alchemical weapon =1.5[W], 1.75[W] after reforging with material type, 2[W] with tier 3.

How do you plan to address weapons with custom critical profile?
How do you plan to address the issue with khopeshes being the only reasonable TWF choice for non-monks?
How are you going to deal with the fact khopesh proficiency is actually unnecessary to take full advantage of exotic properties of khopesh, as opposed to DAxes, BSwords, Repeaters, Great Xbows?
Why Shuriken expertise can't be "merged" with shuriken proficiency?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=336880

and one directly from my barbarian's hearty lungs: when will I get 20/x4 twohander, that doesn't drop upon exiting adventure?

[Yan_PL]

This is just standardization process that would make things easier to understand. Certain named weapons, which were unique due to their hit die or crit profile will be changed to reflect differences from their "normal" counterparts in their descriptions.

--------------------------------------------
* * * Damage Die Effects * * *
--------------------------------------------
Irregular Damage Dice: x: This weapon has it's base damage dice changed to x.

Hurtful Material: This weapon is made of substance which is harmful to foes. This weapon deals additional half of base damage with each attack. (+0.5[W])

Reforged: This weapon was reforged to exceptionally hurt any enemies. It deals additional quarter of it's base damage with every attack. (+0.25[W])

Epic: This epic weapon has double the base damage dice of a normal weapon of its type. (+1[W])

Stacking of those effects: always stacking. Weapon which would have them all would deal 2.75[W], 3.75[W] with deadly weapons, 4.75[W] with deadly weapons and in point blank range with corresponding feat.

--------------------------------------------
* * * Critical Hit Effects * * *
--------------------------------------------
Bloodseeking: This weapon lusts for blood of your enemies. Its base threat range is increased by 1.

Severely Wounding: This weapon strikes enemy's weak spots with tremendous force. Its base critical multiplier is increased by 1.

Stacking of those effects: Bloodseeking stacks with keen/impact/IC, and is applied before those. Kensei signature weapon mastery III is applied after all other effects.

--------------------------------------------
* * * EXAMPLES * * *
--------------------------------------------
current Epic Sword of Shadows in terms of those effects would be:
+10 Adamantine Greatsword
Hurtful Material
Bloodseeking
Severely Wounding
Epic

Carnifex in terms of those effects would be
+2 Greataxe
Bloodseeking
Keen

Oath of Droaam:
+5 Greataxe
Epic
Severely Wounding
Flaming Burst
Keen
Vorpal
Adamantine

Epic Thornlord
+8 Longbow
Irregular damage dice: 1d8+2
Epic
Bloodseeking

"New" epic Antique Greataxe, as in Eladrin's post above:
+6 Greataxe
Irregular damage dice: 1d20
Epic
Force Burst
Metalline
Adamantine
Righteousness

Piledriver:
+2 Maul
Irregular damage dice: 2d6
Strength +2
Dexterity -1
Balance -5

Deathnip:
+5 Heavy pick
Bloodseeking
Maiming
Seeker +8

Greensteel weapons would be +5 Hurtful Material
Alchemical Blanks would be +5 hurtful material, (1.5[W]),
after adding material type they would gain "Reforged" (+5 Hurtful Material + Reforged 1.75[W]),
Tier III upgrade would replace Hurtful Material (and possibly reforged, too) with "Epic" (either +6 Reforged Epic=2.25[W] or +6 Epic = 2[W])

[Book_O_Dragons]

New Weapon Effects Suggestions:
Hurtful Material: This weapon is made of substance which is harmful to foes. This weapon deals additional half of base damage with each attack. (+0.5[W])
Reforged: This weapon was reforged to exceptionally hurt any enemies. It deals additional quarter of it's base damage with every attack. (+0.25[W])
Epic: This epic weapon has double the base damage dice of a normal weapon of its type. (+1[W])
Stacking of those effects: always stacking. Weapon which would have them all would deal 2.75[W], 3.75[W] with deadly weapons, 4.75[W] with deadly weapons and in point blank range with corresponding feat.


Bloodseeking: This weapon lusts for blood of your enemies. Its base threat range is increased by 1.
Severely Wounding: This weapon strikes enemy's weak spots with tremendous force. Its base critical multiplier is increased by 1.
Stacking of those effects: Bloodseeking stacks with keen/impact/IC, and is applied before those. Kensei signature weapon mastery III is applied after all other effects.

Greensteel weapons would be +5 Hurtful Material
Alchemical Blanks would be +5 hurtful material, (1.5[W]),
after adding material type they would gain "Reforged" (+5 Hurtful Material + Reforged 1.75[W]),
Tier III upgrade would replace Hurtful Material (and possibly reforged, too) with "Epic" (either +6 Reforged Epic=2.25[W] or +6 Epic = 2[W])

+1 nice suggestion

[Darkrok]

This is just standardization process that would make things easier to understand. Certain named weapons, which were unique due to their hit die or crit profile will be changed to reflect differences from their "normal" counterparts in their descriptions.

I love this. It would allow them to standardize the rules surrounding these items rather than have them behaving unpredictably when new features/spells are added to the game. Big-time +1!!!

[Mistycball]

Como dijo Sherlock:la solucion mas simple suele ser la correcta.

I know devs you want to introduce new tools to mechanics to built more weapons...
But may be would better to change the spell than all the weapon mech?

May be DW would be more powerful on low base dice weapons or give a direct bonus to dmg depending on the weapon if its 1 or 2 wield...

With the actual system im sure with your creativity can create great weapons,there is a +10 weapon and tons of +6.....will be possible to get some +7,8,9.(or more dice changes i love the 2d7 from terror)

Thank for your info eladrin.

P.d:sorry about my bad english

[Shade]

[I] A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)


Does this mean you've fixed the bug where the epic version of the oath of drooam exists in the game files, yet doesnt exist in epic von1?

Also, the gauntlet weapons are a bit unfun to use, because you lose them the moment you step into part2.. Where you might actaully want to use one (portals tend not to vorpal well). Should let us keep them throughought the advenutre, not like they'd be much use against arraetrikos himself.

[mystafyi]

The oath of droaam and tesyus are both items picked up at the end of the quest. why are devs wasting time buffing weapons that have no use? this is an epic fail.

[Adrenas]

Note: The following is still subject to change.

We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive. :)

* It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]

Right, so are you guys ever going to fix deadly weapons so that it actually works on ranged weapons? Honestly, I saw less sloppy code when I was beta testing this game than there is now. Recent updates feel rushed. If it isn't ready then don't release it. That should be a given.

Edit: Okay, so it wasn't supposed to be released. We could still use an update of just bug fixes, they're starting to pile up over the last few updates.

[TreknaQudane]

Right, so are you guys ever going to fix deadly weapons so that it actually works on ranged weapons? Honestly, I saw less sloppy code when I was beta testing this game than there is now. Come on Turbine, it's getting to be downright unprofessional. If it isn't ready then don't release it. That should be a given.

It wasn't supposed to have been released :rolleyes:

[Adrenas]

It wasn't supposed to have been released :rolleyes:

I say the same thing about gas at the dinner table, but my wife still gets mad.

[Zuka]

Jeez, sop many complaints about DW not hitting wraps. Let me just say a couple of things as regards to this. As well as a couple in regards to the spell in general.

1: DW should effect wraps for one reason, the monk past life has the same effect, the jidz-tetka+earth stance has the effect, alchemical byeshk weapons have the effect, and the garments of equilibrium have the effect, none of those stack with each other excluding the past life feat which stacks with any one of them but not multiples. I don't see why you can't add 2 die steps to wraps with DW on, I mean, the Zombie form of pale masters adds 3 die steps, and stacks with the monk past life and earth stanced jidz tetka/garments of equilibrium/presumably alchemical byeshk wraps.

2: Monks don't get GS, there's only so far 3 types of epic wraps (alchemical has to be earned through an exquisitely difficult epic raid to actually get the epic version) and I have to be honest, my endless lights don't cut it very well when I'm having issues with accuracy in EChrono, as a monk, I'd give just about anything for a +10 epic weapon, even if it was a bare +10 weapon, it's a lot better than the choices I currently have in many situations. So to answer the whole "Monks would be too game-breaking with DW" argument, that goes right out the window the first time you start running an epic monk and can't for the life of you find a weapon with decent effects at more than a +1 bonus (yeah, i have +1 shocking burst GEOB wraps, they're not as good as +4 base bane wraps, because they never hit) so until monks have truly viable end game weapons, everyone complaining about being out-shined should rethink their build, we don't get a lot of favoritism as many of you seem to think. I'd ask you also to look over other epic gear and see how much of it compliments the monk. I mean, there's SO many epic outfits designed for melee characters!

3: It doesn't matter, DW is a nice spell, it's handy to have around but if you're not an arti why are you complaining? We completed things before DW came along, and we'll continue to whether or not it ever becomes part of the standard raid buffs package. If I were in your shoes (which I am) I'd be saying (and I do) sweet, thanks for the shocking weapons, that's a D6 I didn't have before, not "What? No DW? You're a waste of a party space because you can't pander to my individual needs over those of your build who cannot benefit from this spell!"

So in conclusion, be grateful you have arti's at all, yeah, I look forward to the day DW gets fixed, whether it works for my favorite characters or not (monk and an arti) but higher on my list of priorities is fixing crafted handwraps (tod rings don't stack with holy crafted wraps) and releasing some epic weapons that put monk equipment on par with the stalwart defender or barbarians out there.

[k0211312d]

Note: The following is still subject to change.

We are planning on updating epic weapons (and some others) to have a Base Damage Dice modifier, with the base weapon damage of a normal weapon of their type. Most epic weapons will have normal base weapon damage with a +1 bonus to the damage dice modifier.

Nonstandard dice like Thornlord's base damage dice of 1d8+2 will remain, so Epic Thornlord will become 2[1d8+2], 3[1d8+2] in Point Blank Shot range or with Deadly Weapons, and 4[1d8+2] with both. Epic Sting keeps d12's, becoming 2[1d12].

The Sword of Shadows is planned to be 2d6 damage with a +1.5[W] modifier, so will become 2.5[2d6] instead of 5d6. Deadly Weapons cast on it will make it 3.5[2d6] (roughly 7d6*) instead of 10d6.

This pass will also affect Nightforge weapons from the Black Anvil Mines, which we're kicking up to +0.5[W], Greensteel (standardized at +0.5[W] instead of varying between +23% to +64%), and Alchemical weapons (+0.75[W]). A couple of quest specific weapons will be boosted through the roof too - temporary items should be fun to use. (Tesyus (+2[W]), Oath of Droaam (+3[W]), the Gauntlet weapons (+2[W]).)

We don't want to make these changes until what's going on can be clearly communicated on weapon tooltips. Having the Epic Sword of Shadows drop to 2d6 damage on the tooltip without a full explanation would be explosive. :)

* It'll actually be 6d6+(2d6/2) at 3.5[2d6]

should I accept this part mean nerf for ranger whom work with point blank shot?

[suitepotato]

The Deadly Weapons spell was not intended to go out with U12. There are still some problems with it that haven't been resolved. When it's officially released, scrolls will be added to treasure tables.

I know that I'm not usually one for wanting nerfs, and it might add complexity, but since the devs are normally given to nerfing things on the grounds of things being overpowered, sooner or later, maybe you might consider right now that it should not always work on all weapons.

That is, I can see it on epic weapons with fully loaded crystals for actual epics having it work, but allowing it across the board? Sooner or later the people who whine about overpowered this and that are going to start up about it, and you guys are going to think it over... Might as well consider right now while you're elbows deep in the code whether it should be castable on all weapons at all quest levels and difficulties. How epic is epic when a fully loaded epic weapon is given buffs that make it epic epic?

Maybe a chance of spell failure that rises with the level of the weapon it is being cast on compared to the quest it is in. A lvl14 weapon in a lvl10 quest should have a higher chance of it not working than say a lvl20 weapon in a lvl25 quest. I'm just thinking ahead on the future when you finally get around to having second thoughts. Might want to do it now and not later when it will make a much bigger negative impact.

[Yan_PL]

I say the same thing about gas at the dinner table, but my wife still gets mad.well, at least neither you nor your wife need a scroll before/after that.