Horc Str based rogue. Bad idea?

[MoonRunner]

Here is what I am thinking.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

LitleJohn
Level 20 True Neutral Half-Orc Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Rogue)
Hit Points: 280
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 27
Dexterity 16 20
Constitution 16 19
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Feat/Enhancement
Modified Skills
Skills (Level 20)
Balance 15
Bluff 26
Concentration 4
Diplomacy -1
Disable Device 22
Haggle 20
Heal 0
Hide 19
Intimidate -1
Jump 17
Listen 0
Move Silently 21
Open Lock 26
Perform n/a
Repair 1
Search 22
Spot 21
Swim 9
Tumble n/a
Use Magic Device 23

{\b {\ul Notable Equipment }} \par Tharne's Goggles \par Levik's Bracers \par Epic Ring of the Buccaneer \par Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Weave Gloves of Positive \par Vorne's Belt \par Gnawed Ring \par Epic Cloak of Night \par Minos Legens \par Dragontouched Leather Armor \par Gyroscopic Boots of Striding \par Bloodrage Symbiont \par Litany of the Dead \par Sustaining Symbiont \par Epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass \par \par Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking IV
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Hide I
Enhancement: Improved Hide II
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently I
Enhancement: Improved Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I




What are your thoughts? Can I get away with the PA?

[Feithlin]

Horc pure assassin rogue is a classical max dps build.
IMO, the 2 fighter levels aren't worth the trade off. You loose a lot by not going pure: -4d6 SA damage, -3 assassinate DC (-2 from 2 levels less, -1 from the loss of +2 Int).
Going pure, there's not much choice in terms of feats, but this can be done:
Toughness (1), TWF (3), Khop. prof. (6), iTWF (9), IC: slash (12), gTWF (15), PA (18).

On your attribute distribution, I would reduce Dex to 15 (and use a +2 dex tome) and increase Int to 12, or alternatively reduce Dex to 15, Con to 14 and max Str to 20.

On your enhancements, you NEED max haste boost, this a big, big contribution to your dps ; you should also consider more orc action boosts (and less skill boosts), one of the big advantages of the race, more strength (if you end with an even Str), less faster sneaking (if you like the sneaky assassin, you should consider a build optimizing assassinate DC), perhaps a bit subtle backstab (but keep some) as threat generation is a lot higher these days.

You may also consider Helf or Human, who now bring good dps, thanks to the stacking of rogue haste boosts and human damage boosts.

[whitehawk74]

Got one and i love her.
She uses khopesh's of course :)

[karl_k0ch]

Horc pure assassin rogue is a classical max dps build.
IMO, the 2 fighter levels aren't worth the trade off. You loose a lot by not going pure: -4d6 SA damage, -3 assassinate DC (-2 from 2 levels less, -1 from the loss of +2 Int).
Going pure, there's not much choice in terms of feats, but this can be done:
Toughness (1), TWF (3), Khop. prof. (6), iTWF (9), IC: slash (12), gTWF (15), PA (18).

On your attribute distribution, I would reduce Dex to 15 (and use a +2 dex tome) and increase Int to 12, or alternatively reduce Dex to 15, Con to 14 and max Str to 20.

On your enhancements, you NEED max haste boost, this a big, big contribution to your dps ; you should also consider more orc action boosts (and less skill boosts), one of the big advantages of the race, more strength (if you end with an even Str), less faster sneaking (if you like the sneaky assassin, you should consider a build optimizing assassinate DC), perhaps a bit subtle backstab (but keep some) as threat generation is a lot higher these days.

You may also consider Helf or Human, who now bring good dps, thanks to the stacking of rogue haste boosts and human damage boosts.

Pretty much this. Go pure. Use the feat order given above.

The rogue feats of my choice are (in that order): Improved Evasion, Oppurtunist, Skill Mastery, Skill Mastery (or Crippling Strike, if your skill numbers are fine already.)

[BrightAsh]

I wouldnt go (almost) max strength. Put some stuff in intelligence for some extra skills, but also for extra assassinate DC. 18 is nice, but it is only 1 to hit and 1 damage (most damage will come from SA anyway) more then 16 and on a Horc lowering to 16 means 4 points you can punt in intelligence -> 2 more skills and 2 more DC on assassinate.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Yes stay pure. Try to work in khopesh. Your Assassinate DC won't be great, but your dps will be stellar. If you can snag EMG you will be in a pretty decent spot. 2nd life you could keep the same STR and work up more INT for that if you wanted.

[SSFWEl]

Just a some little points to add to the above wise comments:

Your UMD suffers. I see you maxed it, but maybe with 8 cha it's not worth it. You mostly only gain wep use really. Even with +UMD gear you still will have trouble using rez scrolls. And as a TR you probably have some GS's waiting for you. Although you do have skill boost. Not sure - you probably have enough points to max this anyway.

Also putting so many points into haggle, also seems wasteful of points with the low cha. The haggle consider only after maxing the biggies: DD, search, hide and move silently.

You will end up wanting to use Assassinate. So please max out hide and move silently. Way less points into open lock, certainly less than search, disable, ms and hide. Locks don't break and DC's for lock are not that high.

Also maybe consider diplo and not bluff. On my rogue I did bluff and am thinking of LR just for that.

gl and enjoy!

[destiny4405]

haste boost IV is a must. i'd take all PA ehancements also.

if you aren't taking those and not maxing your str i don't see any reason to go horc. you could just go human or helf (18/15/16/8/8/8).

with human you have extra feat and same number of skill points, while with helf you could go fighter dilly for one more str, or barb, for one more con and 2 class toughness enhancements.

both can use haste boost and damage boost at the same time.

EDIT: forgot to answer, Horc rogue isn't bad idea. +2 str starting and +2 str from enhancements are great. PA enhancements for more damage? yes pls. but for me, the main reason i would choose Horc instead of other races are their actoon boosts enhancements. maxed, you have 10 (12 with veriks) haste boosts, which is pure awesomness :)

[Mellkor]

Yes, Str based rogues are a bad idea. I have seen way too many STR based rogues try to be front line fighters. Int based is a much better synergy for rogues. Your biggest damage comes mainly from SA and assassinate anyway, so why try and be a str based front line DPSer when other classes do that much better. If you want to play a str based DPSer who can still do trap skills, just play a rogue splashed fighter, barb, or ranger.

Go int based and build around sneak damage and assassinate dc. Very fun to play! and by far out DPS's any str based rogue.

IMO

[Tuney]

I wouldn't say STR are a bad idea. But like you said it is a bad idea to be a frontline 'grunt' as rogue! A rogue is all about 'tactical strikes' and placement! A rogue should always try to be flanking and attacking from a spot where the least ammount of 'cross-fire' is.

A str rogue has fewer worries about what weapons he can use (though not much as rogue's doesn't get many weapon feats anyways) and can more 'easily' deal with mobs that are 'rogue banes' (Undead UNDEAD UNDEAD! oh and Elementals , oozes and slightly constructs but that can be slightly fixed with wrack construct hehe)

[Bufo_Alvarius]

Just a some little points to add to the above wise comments:

Your UMD suffers. I see you maxed it, but maybe with 8 cha it's not worth it. You mostly only gain wep use really.

UMD is mostly gear. My 8 cha horc can hit no fail just fine.



Yes, Str based rogues are a bad idea. I have seen way too many STR based rogues try to be front line fighters

I respectfully disagree. Int vs Str is a tradeoff and both are quite viable. As to playstyle, yes some horc rogues think they are tanks. They are doin it wrong. ;)


and by far out DPS's any str based rogue.

In your dreams smallfry! :D

[MoonRunner]

I put a lot of thought into going the max str route but the starting 14 con that gave me scared me off, especially since I imagine agro management will be a challenge with this toon and the extra HP will be very usefll in ToD and epics. As far as putting a little into INT for assasinate I chose not to do this as I am thinking those dc's would be mostly useless. Am I wrong? I know a caster has to try to get an effective DC even when maxing that atribute, isn't assasinate the same? I am a do it well or don't do it at all kinda guy so I won't spend much time trying to assasinate for only a 50% success rate.

I also origionally planned this for a pure rogue however since I dumped Int it seems a waist for the assasinate dc. However the fighter only gives me 1 feat and 1 toughness enhancement and a point of str from enhancements. My planned gear includes an exceptional str +1 so the odd str would be used. So I guess it is about 20HP, +1 attack bonus and one other feat vs 4d6sa dmg. I could use that other feat for a second toughness feat or another +1 to hit with slashing as I did with OP.

Just how little STR could I get away with and still hit with PA? I have a pure in my planner based on this build too so let me get a little more feedback and I will tune it a little more.

Thanks for your replies.

[Battlehawke]

I think that you will actually find this toons to be a lot of fun. Str based Rogues are awesome!

1. 18 or 20 is fine for Str, however why go Horc if not going THF or 20 Horc? Those are the two real assets to being a Horc. If going the Khop/TWF route thogh 18 is fine. You might however enjoy a Dwarf better with more HP, the same Str and dual wielding Dwarven Axes.

2. Your UMD will be fine with an 8 Char. Most Rogues never have more than 10 base.

3. While you do gain more DPS going pure, that DPS is rarely able to be applied where it counts. So don't sweat that too much. 18/2 Ftr is fine, but you may also enjoy 18/1Ftr/1Barb for the extra base speed.

4. Combat. #1. Don't be the first one to every battle and you will own kill count and enjoy stealing the kills from the other melees that have aggro.

5. Always update tour Fortification, Con and False Life items ASAP.

6. Skills. Ultimately, you only need Disable, Open, Search, Spot, and UMD. So very little Int with a Rogue is needed. You may find Bluff and Jump to add more fun though. Remember toons with only one level of Rog with the right gear are doing Epic traps...

7. Assassin DC. Again, where it really counts, isn't going to help you, you'll enjoy beating the snot out of things more.

[Alleyna]

Half-orcs are good and can get max strength, but I think Half-elves are also a very powerful choice for a rogue. They are a net of 3 strength behind a Half-Orc (2 from the racial strength boost at character creation, and essentially 1 from enhancements - half-elves have access to human adaptability strength enhancement to make up 1 point). But the half-elf dilettantes are strong. You can take cleric for heal and greater restoration scrolls without worrying about UMD. You can take wiz or arti for a free int enhancement and arcane scrolls/UMD boost. You can take barb for extra hitpoints and con or fighter for martial proficiency and str. There are a lot of amazing choices. You don't get the penalties that a half-orc gets racially and you can come very close in terms of strength. And you can end up with more hitpoints with +1 con enhancement and extra racial toughness enhancement. That is, of course, if it isn't an aesthetic choice not to go half-elf ;)

And I agree about going pure, especially if you can set yourself up with ways to bypass fort, like improved sunder and wrack constract, you'll want to stay pure for max DPS. The rogue capstone is just too juicy not to have as asn assassin (the extra sneak attack one that is :p)

[Mellkor]

In your dreams smallfry! :D

I have (or had) capped str, dex, and int based rogues.
You obviously have had no experience playing a 48+ assassinate DC int based rogue. Play one and get back to me. Int base by far out DPS's any str based build when you factor in assassinate success rate. Why go str based for a marginal damage per hit gain while giving up the ability to one shot mobs most str based rogues can only dream about assassinating.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

I have (or had) capped str, dex, and int based rogues.
You obviously have had no experience playing a 48+ assassinate DC int based rogue. Play one and get back to me. Int base by far out DPS's any str based build when you factor in assassinate success rate. Why go str based for a marginal damage per hit gain while giving up the ability to one shot mobs most str based rogues can only dream about assassinating.

Its almost as if you took my playful ribbing as a personal attack. Almost.

[karl_k0ch]

I have (or had) capped str, dex, and int based rogues.
You obviously have had no experience playing a 48+ assassinate DC int based rogue. Play one and get back to me. Int base by far out DPS's any str based build when you factor in assassinate success rate. Why go str based for a marginal damage per hit gain while giving up the ability to one shot mobs most str based rogues can only dream about assassinating.

How many mobs do you usually assassinate in a typical raid, such as eChrono, Shroud or EVoN?

[Mellkor]

How many mobs do you usually assassinate in a typical raid, such as eChrono, Shroud or EVoN?

Hmm. dont keep track of numbers much, but in the Last EDA I did the other day I had over 70 kills, of those, probably around 50 were one shot kills. I tend to concentrate on peripheral targets such as casters and archers and also very high HP assassinatable mobs such as the orothons. Quest went very fast and smooth. Healer even had SP to burn at the end of each fight.

In the quests u mention, with a full group, I typically assassinate 50 or more. I have also soloed ETides with this guy by making use of the NPC's at the beginning (you can bluff mobs to them) to get aggro and summoned mobs elsewhere, and just assassinated my way through most of it. I also used the existing traps creatively :D The boss fight took a while but I did that one by beating on him, then jumping out the door to self heal, rinse, repeat.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Yes, Str based rogues are a bad idea.

I would never say this.



I have seen way too many STR based rogues try to be front line fighters.

THIS is the only thing you should have said.

[Mellkor]

I would never say this.



THIS is the only thing you should have said.

The OP wanted an opinion, and I gave it. :D I am entitled to that, just as you are. The only difference is I would never tell someone what they should and should not say.

I still think str based rogues are a bad idea, I say that having played one, as well as other rogue builds. It is just my opinion, just one among many.

[karl_k0ch]

I still think str based rogues are a bad idea, I say that having played one, as well as other rogue builds. It is just my opinion, just one among many.
Your Int-based rogue is in fact not too far away from a str-based one.

If your typical runs favor an assassinate-heavy play style, your build has an advantage. If your typical runs have Wizards CCing/instakilling the Trash, and your duty is to beat some red-named, the Str-based build has an advantage.

[WangChi]

I've got a capped human, pure rogue, 16/15/14/14/8/10. I think it's a great balance between boss dps and assassinate. I've got a 41dc right now, but I plan to have it at a sustainable 42dc when I get the gear (missing exc int 1). With a yugo + store + house D, I could get it even higher, although I find a 41dc to be pretty amazing.

I've got good hp, 452 standing, 592 yugo/rage/dbl madstoned, fantastic boss dps as well, especially when I use my cannith crafted +4 holy silver eob/+5 holy silver imp dest combo. In fact, I was in a rather poorly built VoD group last night (no WF tank, and fleshie tank couldn't hold aggro well, and dc'd a couple times), so instead of wiping and quitting, I stepped up and tanked Suulo. Turned off my subtle backstabbing, removed my tharnes goggles, turned on power attack, hit my haste boost IV + human versatility damage III + divine power clicky and went to town on him - held aggro on suulo from 55-60% health until completion.

The beauty of the rogue class is that it can be played so many different ways. Some like dex/finesse, some like str/power attack, some like int/assassinate. I prefer a blend of str/power/int/assassinate, I think it's far more flexible and reliable in all phases of a quest. My record in eTides is 68/104 total kills in a 6 man group with this build, never tried to solo it like Mellkor, but now I think I will just for the fun of it.

The beauty is also the beast for the rogue class though, because in a class that so flexible, it's hard to know who are the great builds/players, and who are the squishy sp sponges that help wipe parties.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

The OP wanted an opinion, and I gave it. :D I am entitled to that, just as you are. The only difference is I would never tell someone what they should and should not say.

Perhaps I should not have phrased it the way I did, which came off somewhat Stalin-esque. However, if someone states an opinion about which I do not agree, I am going to highlight it.

I happen to really appreciate Assassinate in Epics. So much so, in fact, that I plan a low-40's build in the near future, which will far surpass one of my current builds DC's. My question for you is, do you find a 45+ DC to be much more effective than a 42 DC?

[Mellkor]

Perhaps I should not have phrased it the way I did, which came off somewhat Stalin-esque. However, if someone states an opinion about which I do not agree, I am going to highlight it.

I happen to really appreciate Assassinate in Epics. So much so, in fact, that I plan a low-40's build in the near future, which will far surpass one of my current builds DC's. My question for you is, do you find a 45+ DC to be much more effective than a 42 DC?

yeah, I noticed a real difference (in epics) when I surpassed 45 vs low 40's. When I TR I will have +1 to my standing DC, I guess I will see how that goes :)

I also see a real difference when grouping with someone in the low 40's DC in success rate in epic quests.