U 12, & broken game mechanics

[Captain_Wizbang]

When I see posts from the people here that have been around since beta, & have a reputation for posting positive thoughts, and are now saying this is the worst update ever, Ill most certainly listen. (Because of rules, I wont post their names, hopefully they make similar posts on this thread)

I'm not talking about the challenges, it's the whole package.

With every update, you (Turbine) gets farther away from balancing this game, and it's almost to the point of not being fixable!

We all know you're trying, but it kind of looks like aspects of V 4.0 is seeping in here!

What really bugs me, is that a majority of Turbine employees play PnP, and are devout D&D & DDO fans.

How can a group of people that have control over the development of a game that is so unique, no other game can even compare itself to, can let the dynamics, mechanics & balance get so screwed up!

________________________________________________
Quotes from the roundtable developer Q&A;


"MadFloyd" : Well, I think one of the reasons we wanted to do Challenges is we took a quick temperature reading with Crystal Cove. I think any game going on as long as DDO has can always use a little infusion of a different game mechanic. All our dungeons are very unique and different from each other in that they're all hand crafted. And we've got wilderness areas and raids, but we just wanted to bring something different to the table.


I think you pretty much already introduced way too many "new ideas"
Seriously, adding ANOTHER form of crafting to further screw up the loot tables & balance is enough damage in itself.

Ian: We may return to Challenges, and we'd like to because we think they're fun to develop and play, but we'll see how the player reaction goes.

Not looking good so far, sorry.
________________________________________________
After running the challenges, I have to tell you, they have the potential to be decent quests! Update 11 content was spot on. You proved the new design team is capable of cranking out outstanding content.
So why did you follow it up with another form of this game that isnt widely accepted or liked?

Bring character balance inline with the quests and NOT the crafted items. (big mistake from a long time DM & game designer I know)

This is the fatal flaw in DDO, way too many ways to make uber gear that isnt inline with established mechanics & rules. So, you have to tweak this, tweak that to compensate, next thing you know, it's broke!

*conspiracy theory* Maybe this is all done on purpose because the entire game has been secretly getting completely reworked & coded for a HUGE event that brings all into Forgotten Realms or Neverwinter! :eek:

[Failedlegend]

We all know you're trying, but it kind of looks like aspects of V 4.0 is seeping in here!

Ok a few things


- How is that related AT ALL

- Have you ever played 4e..like actually played

- There is a few ideas pulled from 4E ie. Half Elf Dilly...it made them not suck

- Why is Turbine's willingness to pull from all versions of DnD and even some of their players ideas a bad thing.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I'm sorry but I don't see how thats a problem...I have feeling you've never actually played 4E


Nope, and never will.
This game is based on 3.5, so your post offers no validation by the OP. :eek:

[dkyle]

With every update, you (Turbine) gets farther away from balancing this game, and it's almost to the point of not being fixable!

What are you referring to? Challenges? They're hardly a major change to the game...


We all know you're trying, but it kind of looks like aspects of V 4.0 is seeping in here!

What are you referring to?


I think you pretty much already introduced way too many "new ideas"
Seriously, adding ANOTHER form of crafting to further screw up the loot tables & balance is enough damage in itself.


One more crafting system among many is hardly some radical change to the game. Having a bunch of crafting systems makes the game cumbersome and complicated, but not especially imbalanced.


This is the fatal flaw in DDO, way too many ways to make uber gear that isnt inline with established mechanics & rules. So, you have to tweak this, tweak that to compensate, next thing you know, it's broke!

What rules? PnP rules? Uh, the 3.5 PnP rules are terribly broken and unbalanced. I'll take DDO's take on them over the original rules any day.


*conspiracy theory* Maybe this is all done on purpose because the entire game has been secretly getting completely reworked & coded for a HUGE event that brings all into Forgotten Realms or Neverwinter!

Well, if we're talking conspiracy theories, how about that the recent ramp-up of Pay2Win (and Artificer release practice) is an attempt to squeeze as much money out of the game before the Neverwinter MMO takes over and locks DDO out of a license renewal.


Nope, and never will.

So your statement of "aspects of V 4.0" in U12 has no basis? And "V 4.0" is simply a meaningless pejorative to you? Seems like it. I see absolutely nothing new to U12 remotely reminiscent of 4E. On the other hand, DDO already has many elements reminiscent of 4E. Those PrEs that everyone wants more of, for example, are much more like 4E's Paragon Paths than they are like 3.5's Prestige Classes.


This game is based on 3.5, so your post offers no validation by the OP. :eek:

I'm entirely not sure what you're saying here (what does "validation by the OP" mean?), but if you're saying that DDO being based on 3.5 is somehow a reason that elements of 4E should automatically never be introduced, that's some pretty seriously flawed logic. If you dislike 4E, fine, you're in large company around here, but "X is based on Y, so any elements that are not Y are bad" is simply fallacious.

[Failedlegend]

Nope, and never will.
This game is based on 3.5, so your post offers no validation by the OP. :eek:

So you've never played but you somehow have an opinion about it....yep I am now offcially ignoring all you opinions and ideas since i don't know which ones your actually informed on.

oh and +1 to DKyle

[budalic]

Nope, and never will.
This game is based on 3.5, so your post offers no validation by the OP. :eek:

I think that what he wanted to say is - 4E is actually way more balanced than 3.5 ever was... to the point of boredom. You suggest DDO is getting less and less balanced, on the other hand.

[karsion]

I think that what he wanted to say is - 4E is actually way more balanced than 3.5 ever was... to the point of boredom. You suggest DDO is getting less and less balanced, on the other hand.

Well, balance is like a philosopher's stone, great ideal that we should never aspire but will never reach. Seriously, the only thing to make something truly balanced is to make it the same as other things. None of the MMOs are balanced. Every game out there is ging through a cycle of nerfs, buffs and rewritting of classes, races, skills, spells and what have you.

[dkyle]

Well, balance is like a philosopher's stone, great ideal that we should never aspire but will never reach. Seriously, the only thing to make something truly balanced is to make it the same as other things. None of the MMOs are balanced. Every game out there is ging through a cycle of nerfs, buffs and rewritting of classes, races, skills, spells and what have you.

Is in all things, perfect Balance is an ideal, not something that can actually be attained. But more balance implies more sameness, and more boring, is a far too common misconception. Look at Starcraft; very different races, yet quite well balanced with each other. Or Magic; at least when I played, there were major differences between the colors, yet strong decks could be made focusing on any of them. Of course, there will be times, in any dynamically changing game, when one set of options will be better than others, but that's just the nature of an imperfect world.

I disagree with the OP's assessment that U12 somehow radically undermined DDO's balance. If anything, that happened in U9, when the stacking DoTs gave casters the one important thing Melee did better than them.

[Captain_Wizbang]

U12 somehow radically undermined DDO's balance. .

NO NO NO, my point is that the game mechanics & balance have been broken, and U12 didnt help, or address these issues.

And you & 2 other posters need to read the roundtable discussions, We have had way too many updates without proper attention paid to these issue, and we've been told many things that have never come to pass in relation to these issues.

[Captain_Wizbang]

And if for one second you think that having 7 different forms of crafting doesnt upset the balance of the game, then you have a very narrow view of things. Dont flame me, Ive seen all the repliers in this thread make worse comments about these issues in other threads.

[dunklezhan]

I've played 4th ed, it sucks donkey balls as an RPG. Its not even a pnp game, its a card/board game. Boo, down with 4th Ed PnP!

But I've always thought it would make a fantastic MMO/video game. So I don't actually care if Turbine switch rules systems a bit for DDO, just so long as it stays dungeons and dragons, and continues to feel as much like Eberron as U11 did.

[HAL]

I agree with the OP in the following:

-Too many bugs that are huge problems still aren't fixed. I would have fixed more bugs rather than introduce Challenges.

-I don't understand introducing yet more crafting in a game that already has too many different crafting methods.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I agree with the OP in the following:

-Too many bugs that are huge problems still aren't fixed. I would have fixed more bugs rather than introduce Challenges.

-I don't understand introducing yet more crafting in a game that already has too many different crafting methods.

ty, someone got it, thanks

[Hafeal]

I agree with the OP in the following:

-I don't understand introducing yet more crafting in a game that already has too many different crafting methods.

Hallelujah. Completely agree. I fail to understand why they could not adapt crafting to 2 or 3 systems. I understand there is an immersion element as well as an economic balance (in demand for crafting elements) but seriously, the game is just overboard right now. DDO needs a diet from crafting types, not Harry on HPs.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

The main problem I see with DDO is the number of players who make sweeping statements about the state of the game on the forums as if their opinion were somehow magically transformed into a fact accepted as true by all the other players.

I wish those players would get a grip and learn that what they think is not by default true for all of us.

There's no such thing as too many crafting methods, to me. See that end part, to me. Your comments about not liking it does not magically become an absolutely correct statement about the state of the game. It's nothing more than what a couple players have decided to say.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The only problem I see with DDO is the number of players who make sweeping statements about the state of the game on the forums as if their opinion were somehow magically transformed into a fact accepted as true by all the other players.

I wish those players would get a grip on reality and learn that what they think is not by default true for all of us.

There's no such thing as too many crafting methods, to me. See that end part, to me. Your comments about not liking it does not magically become an absolutely correct statement about the state of the game. It's nothing more than what a couple players have decided to say.

what? surely you dont think all this crafted stuff has not affected the game?


And as to your reference about what anybody thinks & posts about being an absolute for all, you're way off base pal. Just by the fact you posted that statement makes you hypocritical, it's an opinion, and yours & mine are but 2 of many.

[dkyle]

NO NO NO, my point is that the game mechanics & balance have been broken, and U12 didnt help, or address these issues.

Perhaps it would help if you communicated better what "these issues" are to you. Your tone seemed to indicate that Challenges, and their associated Crafting system, was in some way a serious detriment to the game. I don't see how they are.


And if for one second you think that having 7 different forms of crafting doesnt upset the balance of the game, then you have a very narrow view of things. Dont flame me, Ive seen all the repliers in this thread make worse comments about these issues in other threads.

The number of crafting systems, in and of itself, is besides the point in regards to balance. In fact, I would think that a game with 7 small, limited crafting systems would be vastly easier to balance than a game with 1 single generic crafting system.

Crafting is just one mechanism for getting gear. Gear is ultimately what's potentially unbalancing. Saying that "too many crafting systems" unbalances the game makes about as much sense as saying the same about "too many Raids".

Having a bunch of crafting systems does make the game more cumbersome and less intuitive, which are not good things. But those aren't balance issues.


I've played 4th ed, it sucks donkey balls as an RPG. Its not even a pnp game, its a card/board game. Boo, down with 4th Ed PnP!

Well, I love card/board games, so I guess that's why I like it. Tactically compelling battles in the context of an ongoing story is pretty much what I always wanted out of D&D, and always felt the older editions failed to deliver.

For story-focused games, D&D has always been a barely useful system (4E included), so I favor different systems for those purposes.


But I've always thought it would make a fantastic MMO/video game. So I don't actually care if Turbine switch rules systems a bit for DDO, just so long as it stays dungeons and dragons, and continues to feel as much like Eberron as U11 did.

I actually think 3.5 is far better suited as a basis for video games, and that DDO bears that out. 4E is very strongly a turn-based, grid-based tactics game, and designed very intently on being a tabletop game. Whereas 3.5 is a world simulation engine that happens to have turn-based combat and the option of using grids to keep track of position in battle. So much of what makes 4E a compelling game is directly tied to its board-gamey combat system; I'm not sure its rules will translate to a real time game.

[nayozz]

i liked 99,99% of update 12


prolly shroud normal blades could get a little dmg reduction, and arrakitos flying should aim meteors at party not at the ground below

[Thrudh]

When I see posts from the people here that have been around since beta, & have a reputation for posting positive thoughts, and are now saying this is the worst update ever, Ill most certainly listen.

What are you people talking about?? Read the release notes... Hardly ANYTHING has changed... Shroud normal is a real pain now... That's about it... I'm pretty sure people will adapt to that soon.

If you were having fun one week ago, what exactly has changed? Why are you not having fun now? No one has to do the challenges.

Again, read the release notes. Not a whole lot changed with Update 12. How in the world does them releasing a new adventure pack that you don't like make the game worthless?

Just don't buy it or play it. And the game is almost exactly the same.

[MrkGrismer]

Actually, I think it is fixable:


Halve the price of the challenge pack
Make it so the competitive advantage ddo store items actually really do drop in the challenges, also unbound universal tokens
Make the challenge ingredients BtA, make a token bag (like the tap bag)
Fix the blades in normal shroud either by reducing damage done or fixing them in any of the ways suggested (reflex save, DR, fix hit box, all of the above, etc.)
Make the first 50k of shared plat come with the shared bank, give the 2nd tier to VIPs and charge reasonable upgrade fees for the rest
Fix the shroud ingredient end rewards, by adding vale ingredients (my pref), making sure there is at least one large each time (or at least a 75% chance), shard of power, etc. Nothing but smalls is no good.
Fix the artificer bugs, especially those involving the dog. Add a cat also.
Fix handwraps (had to add it)
At some point in the near future expand the crafting hall to have wings for each crafting system, and add traders that will allow you to turn in ingredients from one system for ingredients for another, including lower-level-bracket ingredients from the challenges for higher-level-bracket ones. All characters eventually cap, if they are played ya know.


(I am sure I am forgetting something there, but that's off the top of my head)

Fix the lag, it is getting really bad for me also, and I wasn't experiencing it very much before U11. I even uninstalled the thing and re-downloaded/installed it (no help).

[Thrudh]

Fix the lag, it is getting really bad for me also, and I wasn't experiencing it very much before U11. I even uninstalled the thing and re-downloaded/installed it (no help).

FYI, defrag your hard drive between those two steps, if you didn't do that.

[MrkGrismer]

FYI, defrag your hard drive between those two steps, if you didn't do that.

Does it automatically every night, I am showing 0% frag on all four drives.

[danotmano1998]

Actually, I think it is fixable:


Halve the price of the challenge pack
Make it so the competitive advantage ddo store items actually really do drop in the challenges, also unbound universal tokens
Make the challenge ingredients BtA, make a token bag (like the tap bag)
Fix the blades in normal shroud either by reducing damage done or fixing them in any of the ways suggested (reflex save, DR, fix hit box, all of the above, etc.)
Make the first 50k of shared plat come with the shared bank, give the 2nd tier to VIPs and charge reasonable upgrade fees for the rest
Fix the shroud ingredient end rewards, by adding vale ingredients (my pref), making sure there is at least one large each time (or at least a 75% chance), shard of power, etc. Nothing but smalls is no good.
Fix the artificer bugs, especially those involving the dog. Add a cat also.
Fix handwraps (had to add it)
At some point in the near future expand the crafting hall to have wings for each crafting system, and add traders that will allow you to turn in ingredients from one system for ingredients for another, including lower-level-bracket ingredients from the challenges for higher-level-bracket ones. All characters eventually cap, if they are played ya know.


(I am sure I am forgetting something there, but that's off the top of my head)

Fix the lag, it is getting really bad for me also, and I wasn't experiencing it very much before U11. I even uninstalled the thing and re-downloaded/installed it (no help).

I like the cat idea. I can just imagine what kind of sly names people will come up with to name their kitty. :D
Your ideas to fix these thing will never work. They are entirely too logical and simple. Please try again, this time with less reason.
(+1 to you. :)

[Captain_Wizbang]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=350105

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349798

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349908

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=350157

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=350111

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=350069

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=350000

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349991

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349958

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349192

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349886

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349917

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349854

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349914


This is only from one section of the boards AND from the last 24 hours.

For the posters that remarked about me representing the masses I submit these threads that reflect the voices of others.

It is never my intention to speak for anyone but myself, and in no way do I think the game is "worthless" as Truhd has said (which I never said btw),

My point is about game mechanics and being broke.

If you think 10 types crafting doesnt affect the balance, then you are mistaken.

Don't get wrong, the devs have done an amazing job on House C & all the great graphics. And a decent quest & raid for U 11.

As MANY people have stated, the challenges aren't what they expected or wanted. Fixing known issues is where a GREAT update would fit in, and Im sure most would agree.

[Seventh]

It's the stats on the items that upset balance, not how many crafting systems they're attached to. You could make an argument for the variety of crafting systems being cumbersome, but I've never really have a problem with it- ran my 12 favor to get a Large Ingredient bag, between that and and a Medium I'm good. And I like having a large number of items available to my characters- gives me options in how to gear them and what content to run to get em geared.

There are items that could use a nerf or buff, but again, that's a problem with the items, not the systems.


As MANY people have stated, the challenges aren't what they expected or wanted. Fixing known issues is where a GREAT update would fit in, and Im sure most would agree.

I'll agree that bugfixes would be fantastic, but we have to be realistic about it (many other posters are not)- the player base will only go so long without new content to run before they start going stir crazy. One update dedicated to bugfixes (and maybe a new PrE or something?) would probably go over well. Anymore than that and people will start complaining, not matter how badly they said they wanted the bugfixes.

And not everyone hated the new content. I disagree with the pricepoint and yes, some of it is clearly recycled, but I enjoyed a number of the challenges and so did many other players (See? I can make sweeping generalizations about the player base too!).

[GermanicusMaximus]

Add a cat also.

LMAO. You had me believing you were serious until you decided to push the envelop just a bit too far :D