How many Hitpoints should a Sorcerer Have at 20?

[Gametym]

So... U12 came out. I joined a Hard Shroud as a Fire Sorc with 280 Hitpoints, 3073 sp and got booted for not having enough Hitpoints! Never has this ever happend to me. I have high umd and can self heal.

My stats are:

Str 16
Dex 18
Con 24
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 34

I have worked on my dc and sr and usually have no issues killing in normal raids (greater evocation feat and item, +1,2 and +3 Cha items). However I am not a TR.

How many HP should a non Tr sorc have to be raid/epic ready? Someone told me I should have 400, but what I would have to give up to have that would decrease the effectiveness of my spells.

[katz]

you don't have to give up anything. you just have to stack your HP gear. 280 is a *tad* on the low side.

you want
toughness the feat +20
all the toughness enhancements that go with it +20 (?)
a toughness item (minos legens, thaarak bracer, slotted into epic item, etc) +20
a GFL item (great ones to try to get your hands on... amrath belts. +6 con +30HP. yay!)
you've been turned down once, but keep trying, get into as many shrouds as will take you and craft a HP item. there's another 45hp there

[Seager52]

It look like as the above poster said you dont have the toughness feat.

This is very important for all classes. You will loose a magical feat, from your SP i would imagine you have mental toughness...drop this one for toughness.

Toughness will give you 23 HP at lvl 20 +20 hp from enhancements = 43

That will a Greater Flase Life Items will give you for a 24 con sorc 312 HP

If you add a minos legend then your at 332. Add a GS HP item (45hp) then your at 377. Now with tomes or Yugo pots you can get to 400 for the needed raids/epics.

400 on a caster is very nice for very hard raids and epics. now if you were doing like rainbow on hard then you dont need 400 so dont use a yugo pot for that.

It is very gear and resourse intensive but if your trying to do the very hard raids and epics that require these items are needed for your class.

[Fejj]

280 is way too low - I wouldn't boot you. But if your asking, there it is..

The recommended hit points for your level 20 Sorcerer should be:

80 - Level 20 Sorc
140 - 24 Con
20 - Heroic Durability (all get for free at level 1)
30 - Greater False Life
______
280 - Most likely you are here.

22 - Toughness Feat
30 - Toughness Enhancements
10 - Gianthold Favor
20 - Toughness Item
________
352 - You should get here as soon as possible

45 - GreenSteel HP Item
______
397 - Recommended for a first life character.

[DragonMageT]

Being honest here.

280 for Lvl 20 Sorc...is very low.
People will assume that you actually worked at getting it that low :)

You probably should show your stat break down, starting stats. Why a 16 str ?
What was your starting con ?
What race ?

Do you have toughness ? Greensteal +45 HP item ? GFL or SFL item ?

And you can bet it will happen again, especially if you try joining Epics, eDQ2 good luck surviving that and
now Shroud with the blade damage.

[Uska]

Should have around 400 or so but I wouldn't boot but if you started dying to much I might just carry stone for awhile until the danger was gone or the quest was complete

[zeonardo]

Mortals
300ish non wf
400ish wf

Uber Twinked Geared powergamer players out there thinking every player can get in 1 week all the gears they got back then before those buffs.
500ish non wf (or moar)
600ish wf (or moar)

Shroud runs (any race)
OVER 9000!!!!!!!!

[DragonMageT]

Shroud runs (any race)
OVER 9000!!!!!!!!


QFT LOL, nice one.

[bandyman1]

After seeing every other poster here get close, yet still miss the mark;

The Toughness feat gives 22 HPs at level 20. It's 3 at level one, +1 for each additional level ( 19 in total ) = 22.

/shrugs. Not being snarky, just saying ;)

[katz]

i r bad at maths. :D


thanks Bandyman :o

[Bobthesponge]

You can look at my caster who sits at 407:

http://my.ddo.com/character/argonnessen/rinsewind/

He's not the best geared but he is pretty good. Having the extra build points of a second life helped a bit - I maxed CHA and then put plenty into CON to start with 16 (I think - not online to check).

As stated by the posts above, I have the amrath belt that provides +6 CON and GLF, 1 toughness feat and all the toughness enhancements I could get, plus my boots are con op/HP.

If you have taken mental toughness then I advise respeccing to pick up the regular toughness. You really shouldn't need 3000 SP - I rarely run out. Having a Torc and con op definately helps with that, so I would recommend to continue shrouding until you can get a con op/HP item which not only boosts HP but will allow you to make up for the lost spell points from ditching mental toughness.

[Rawel_San]

Depends what you want to run. For hard epics I'd recommend 400+ at least. 500+ is nice but not necessary.
I don't quite understand what you mean by having a +1,+2,+3 cha item. Stat boosting items do not stack as
a general rule (i.e. you should have a +6 cha item). You can get exceptional cha +1 and +2 from either a
crafted shroud weapon or from ToD rings. From Fejj's breakdown you can see getting close to 400 is not hard
if you can grab a +1 and +2 except con on a tod ring that helps a bit (depending on race you might not be able
to get 30 hp from toughness enhancements just 20). If you haven't used a +2 con tome that's another 20 hp
that can be gotten fairly readily.

The thing I would advise though is don't join hard raids until you're fairly geared. It's lately become all the rage
to run raids on hard and people feel it's the usual thing to do. It never used to be that way and as they
upped the difficulty it probably should stop again. I didn't set foot in hard Shroud/VoD/ToD till my caster
had 450 sustainable hp's and didn't do elites till I could stay above 500. That doesn't mean you actually need
that many hp (I'm sure you can manage with high 300's) it's more about the fact that you sort of put off
the harder content until you're better geared and have mastered the raid on normal.

[Seager52]

Mortals
300ish non wf
400ish wf

Uber Twinked Geared powergamer players out there thinking every player can get in 1 week all the gears they got back then before those buffs.
500ish non wf (or moar)
600ish wf (or moar)

Shroud runs (any race)
OVER 9000!!!!!!!!

I will agree that general content is fine for spellcasters to have 300ish.

However, what is annoying is when new players get to 20 and join Epic Devils Assault with 300 HP. Im sorry but no you are not ready.

We dont expect you to get all this gear to do these quests in a week...in fact we dont care how long it takes you.

But you should understand that the hard end game content is for those charaters that have already completed and attained the gear from lower content.

If you want to roll with us on the top end content a week after you cap your first toon, then yes, we expect you to have gotten all the above posted gear before hand.

Its like starting a job and after one week you want a promotion when you are just not ready for it.

I have played this game since beta and I will tell you right now that when I made a new toon recently I would not take him into th eend game hard content until I got him prepared. Why? Because I want to help the team not drag them down.

There are plenty of quests and raids that you do not have to be uber geared to when...but if it has the word EPIC in front of it, you had better be geared and ready.

[Bodic]

So... U12 came out. I joined a Hard Shroud as a Fire Sorc with 280 Hitpoints, 3073 sp and got booted for not having enough Hitpoints! Never has this ever happend to me. I have high umd and can self heal.

My stats are:

Str 16
Dex 18
Con 24
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 34

I have worked on my dc and sr and usually have no issues killing in normal raids (greater evocation feat and item, +1,2 and +3 Cha items). However I am not a TR.

How many HP should a non Tr sorc have to be raid/epic ready? Someone told me I should have 400, but what I would have to give up to have that would decrease the effectiveness of my spells.


If you are a Sorc/wiz your second highest stat should be Con you need no dex, str, or wis

Isnsightful Reflex for wiz and Force of Personality for Sorc. The thing of it all is that we have ALL doen said quest below 300 HP on a Arcane for those that have not they have only done it @20. Best advice do what you can with what you have if they boot you for Hp lacking in Shroud for under 300 be GLAD they did so.

[grayham]

I would say a little on the low side, but nothing to get worried about. Check my signature.

Peace.

[Gametym]

Thanks to everyone for the quick and specific suggestions. I did have the mental toughness and thanks to your suggestions switched it for toughness and selected toughness in my enchantments.

For those that asked, I currently do have a +6 con item, Greater false life item and +3 exceptional con item and a +2 tome. With all those items I am at 322 currently. I will get a toughness item and the =10 from GH which will easily get me to 352 which is very nice trade off only loosing 65 sp (still above 3k). when I cast false life spell It will give me an additonal 20 boost too.

For the record I wasnt attempting a Epic... it was just a Hard Shroud.

Thank you all! Very helpful

[Diyon]

Thanks to everyone for the quick and specific suggestions. I did have the mental toughness and thanks to your suggestions switched it for toughness and selected toughness in my enchantments.

For those that asked, I currently do have a +6 con item, Greater false life item and +3 exceptional con item and a +2 tome. With all those items I am at 322 currently. I will get a toughness item and the =10 from GH which will easily get me to 352 which is very nice trade off only loosing 65 sp (still above 3k). when I cast false life spell It will give me an additonal 20 boost too.

For the record I wasnt attempting a Epic... it was just a Hard Shroud.

Thank you all! Very helpful

Temp HP is nice, but don't count false life to your HP total since its not constant (doesn't come back when healed). However, the rage spell for +2 con (20 HP) is good to keep the HP up.

Also shroud, especially hard and elite, got harder. The blades hurt.

Work on that GS hp item and you'll be good to go.

As others have said, the HP bar to work at at least hitting is about 350-400 HP at lvl 20.

[Bobthesponge]

If you are a Sorc/wiz your second highest stat should be Con you need no dex, str, or wis


Gonna have to disagree here. Circle gets the square.

As a sorc/wiz you should max (or come close) your primary stat, CHA/INT. Next is CON, but ignore STR at your own risk. Not only will it help at lower levels when you are still swinging the ol' greataxe, but at higher levels it will prevent you from being encumbered. This is an inconvenience for most of the game but, for example, when kiting the shadowfiends in ToD encumbered = dead.

There should be enough points in any guild to give a little love to STR.

[Such755]

280 is way too low - I wouldn't boot you. But if your asking, there it is..

The recommended hit points for your level 20 Sorcerer should be:

80 - Level 20 Sorc
140 - 24 Con
20 - Heroic Durability (all get for free at level 1)
30 - Greater False Life
______
280 - Most likely you are here.

22 - Toughness Feat
30 - Toughness Enhancements
10 - Gianthold Favor
20 - Toughness Item
________
352 - You should get here as soon as possible

45 - GreenSteel HP Item
______
397 - Recommended for a first life character.


I second that.
Making a 45 HP Green steel item can be very simple, you can make one with only 2 large devil scales (Triple negative, if I'm not mistaken). (although a conc opp 45 HP items is probably better, with 5 large devil scales).

If you're a human or half elf you can also take Greater Adaptability: constitution and eat a +1 con tome. That will add 20 HP, and will unlock the third Racial Toughness, so that's +30 HP Right there.

[katz]

Thanks to everyone for the quick and specific suggestions. I did have the mental toughness and thanks to your suggestions switched it for toughness and selected toughness in my enchantments.

For those that asked, I currently do have a +6 con item, Greater false life item and +3 exceptional con item and a +2 tome. With all those items I am at 322 currently. I will get a toughness item and the =10 from GH which will easily get me to 352 which is very nice trade off only loosing 65 sp (still above 3k). when I cast false life spell It will give me an additonal 20 boost too.

For the record I wasnt attempting a Epic... it was just a Hard Shroud.

Thank you all! Very helpful

awesome. glad that helped! you may have been turned down because of the recent upgrade to shroud's blades.

keep at it. you'll get it :D

[bradleyforrest]

All of them. You should have all of the hitpoints ever.

[SaIamander]

The thing I would advise though is don't join hard raids until you're fairly geared. It's lately become all the rage
to run raids on hard and people feel it's the usual thing to do. It never used to be that way and as they
upped the difficulty it probably should stop again. I didn't set foot in hard Shroud/VoD/ToD till my caster
had 450 sustainable hp's and didn't do elites till I could stay above 500. That doesn't mean you actually need
that many hp (I'm sure you can manage with high 300's) it's more about the fact that you sort of put off
the harder content until you're better geared and have mastered the raid on normal.

Well said +1

[toaf]

397 hp.. thats the same number my sorc has with mino's on. seems right.. my sp is at 3208 thats why my hit points are low. life is hard as a quickend sorc :D

[Elrogos]

I have another advice for high hp for a sorcerer.

Toughness
Superior false life with a Dread Admiral's Tricorne
Alchemist's Pendant for neck con+6 and +20 hp (so you can use specialiced sash for savants)
GS googles: 45hp with Heavy Fort (so you dont need the Minos Legen and can use the dread admiral with superior false life and the +20 hp of minos legen you can get from Alchemist's Pendant)
item with lesser, medium o high level guild of hp, example crafted bracers, or crafted ring.
+2 Con (ship buff)
+2 con Yugo Pots
+ 4 con Rage

With all this you can easily over 400 hp points.

[Standal]

You might want to reconsider entering Shroud as a fire sorc.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Arraetrikos

Not sure how the new content affects this, but when I hit the vale, I respecced my fire sorc to water. So far so good.

[katz]

...
Alchemist's Pendant for neck con+6 and +20 hp (so you can use specialiced sash for savants)
GS googles: 45hp with Heavy Fort (so you dont need the Minos Legen and can use the dread admiral with superior false life and the +20 hp of minos legen you can get from Alchemist's Pendant)
...

minor problem with that... the elemental energy HP from the pendant is the same elemental energy effect on the GS goggles. so you won't get the 45+20. you'll only end up getting 45 total

[zeonardo]

There are plenty of quests and raids that you do not have to be uber geared to when...

I agree with you almost completely! Well spoken indeed. Just the quote above bugs me.

What raids? Tempest Spine?

[Diyon]

I agree with you almost completely! Well spoken indeed. Just the quote above bugs me.

What raids? Tempest Spine?

Well if I had to say:

Tempest Spine
Chronoscope -non epic
DQ2 -non epic
Von6 -non epic
Titan -maybe? I've never ran this one at level before. But I'll list it anyways because at lvl wasn't specified.
Reaver's Fate -non elite
Hound -non elite, easy to screw up, but that mostly for coordination reasons not gear reasons
VoD -normal. In my experience you don't remotely need to be uber geared to pull this off.
ToD -normal. Yes ToD. It can still be potentially hard, but you don't need uber gear to do it.

Seems like a fair amount of the raids can be done fine without uber gear.

[MRMechMan]

Just to show what is possible without sacrificing TOO much (levels to con, multiple toughnesses, etc)....

Warforged 20 sorc:

Con=20base+7 item+3exp+4tome+2enhancements+2yugo+2ship+2 rage=42con


Hp:

80sorc
320 con
20 heroic
10 argo favor
40 superior false life
10 pirate trinket
40 toughness enhancements
20 large augment
22 toughness feat
20 toughness item
45 greensteel
=627

Total overkill. But awesome if you can do that, and it won't effect casting ability much.

But for a fleshie on first life...

con=16+6item+2tome+2rage=26

80sorc
160con
20 heroic
10argo favor
22 toughness feat
20 toughness enhancements
30 greater false life
=342

I don't expect someone to have large augment, superior false life, +3/+4 tomes, +7 item, +exp con, 45hp greensteel item or an item with toughness feat.

I DO expect them to start with at least 16+ con-which is very easy even on 28pt builds unless drow. If you decide to pick drow over human (not sure why), then starting with 14 is still easily doable and yyou can still get over 300 quite easily.

By level 20, I DO expect them to take toughness, a couple teirs of enhancements, get a GFL item, a +6 con item, to aquire/buy/1750favor/steal a +2 con tome, get the argo favor and keep themselves raged.

So yes, at 280 or whatever you said, it should raise some eyebrows, as you are not just undergeared, you are negligently so. I woulnd't autoboot you, but I know a LOT of group leaders that would.

Having zero or few hp is the main cause of death in this game, the more you have, the less you are likely to die.

It's that simple.

[Miow]

My first life lvl 20 sorc has 392 with ship buffs...no shroud items yet and i'm rocking 38 charisma with ship buffs too so it's possible.

[darkniteyogi]

my 1st life sorc is half-elf with Barb delitante.

Started with 17 CON.

472 Unbuffed, with Medium augment slots of HP. 492 raged. Not difficult to accomplish at all.. No epic gear or anything. Just GS

Still don't have Superior False Life. Should bring it to 502.
+ an exceptional 2 con item (but maybe not worth it) 522.
+ Ship buff = 542

[jeremyt]

I was the offending star holder that gave him the boot without explaining the situation in detail (multiple incoming tells/folks wanting last spot in raid etc). On a norm shroud run, first come first serve, hell lets make it BYOH. This wasnt norm, it was hard, and the group leaders first hard shroud since u12.

Your uber SP (meaning you took mental toughness..on a sorc??) and completely neglected HP just is not a build ready for the newly updated more challenging content. Im sorry, maybe you could pull it off and stay at least somewhat useful throughout the raid. But i dont know you, your a fire savant with no HP so I came to the conclusion that most holding the star would. I was specifically after 11 capable folks that would ease the sting of learning the new ins and outs of the changes on hard.

Sorry, no hard feelings. Im glad it made you think critically on your toon and sounds like your on your way to reworking him a bit to be much more endgame ready. BTW my sorc without the toughness feat had 475 hp with ship + rage. 515 with yugo

[bebeosita]

more than 400 is a decent HP for a sorcerer,mine have 370 w/o exc con and +7 item or rage,yugo etc as human

[Lunavera0351]

Wile everything in this game can't be put on a players skill due to simple chance of a dice roll..... there is a lot that can be put on how well you play your character/build.

I have a lvl 20 sor and I had the same thing happen to me. I know many of yall will call me crazy and disagree but I was trying to join a elite shroud. My sorc had 262 hp with the toughness feats and enhancements.

I had done elite shroud just fine before the update, read up on it and was now ready to try it all anew. I know I have to watch things like aggro and the numbers I am putting out to make sure I don't pull aggro my way. I know I have to get the heck out of the way when things start to go south.

It wasn't that I was trying to shoot for low hp just this is my 4th char and I have not had a problem yet with my play style to make me go on the hunt for hp. For what ever reason I got caught up in things like getting my blue dragon scale rob that I never even bothered to get a a greater false life item lol. Noob mistake whatever call me what you want, but I have been running- epic claw, bob, ttt, last stand, into the deep, demon queen (both the pre raid and raid), von6, von1(tharashk arena), party crashers, under the big top and snitch with no problems and yes all of these on epic. I have also completed hox and vod on elite, died twice on hox and 0 times on vod. (I was vip and now am buying packs when they go on sale...... you don't see epic chrono, da, or tod because I no longer have access to them)

I am not saying I never die or am perfect! I just ran ttt with a group of people a few hrs ago and guess what I died once. But, you know what right after I died.... so did the rog with just over 500hp. Yes I am still working on getting a gs hp item. Yes now that I am almost "forced" to get more hp I will go to gh to grab favor right quick. Yes I do plan on adding a toughness item to my build. Note that sense I have have not had problems with my hp I have been working to get my other characters there con opps/hp items first. With the all the gear I will hit close to if not just over 400hp need a +2 tomb as well only a +1 tomb on her at the moment. (not exact math just a quick estimate)

I am sorry if this post seems to long just this is my opinion of the matter. Hp is not a dump stat, but I don't think you need every/some hp gear to do this content either. Wile some builds may require you to have more hp and or maybe your play style being what is requiring it. I just believe that a lot more credit is due to how people play there characters.

PS. I am not a forums person so if I don't respond right away or not at all its just because I have not bothered to come back to check. I leave my opinion and nothing more.

[MRMechMan]

Wile everything in this game can't be put on a players skill due to simple chance of a dice roll..... there is a lot that can be put on how well you play your character/build.

I have a lvl 20 sor and I had the same thing happen to me. I know many of yall will call me crazy and disagree but I was trying to join a elite shroud. My sorc had 262 hp with the toughness feats and enhancements.

.



In general, arcane 450-500hp players have been playing longer, have better gear, know the quests better, are more survivable and are better casters than the 250-275hp ones. It's just more likely that the 250 sorc is a first character whose hand will need to be held, and the 500hp sorc is a multi TR who can probably solo the quest anyway.

It's not ALWAYS the case, not by a long shot, but it's accurate enough of the time that amazing low hp players often get autobooted...and then the 450 replacement is ****. It's a shame.

It is more than possible to be successful with lowish hp. But you don't need to sacrifice any casting ability whatsoever to get over 400hp, so why not do it?

[azmodeus1]

400++

id kick a gimp 280hp fire savant from my shroud also.

[SirValentine]

You probably should show your stat break down, starting stats. Why a 16 str ?


Not the OP, but I can guess this: 8 starting Str, +6 item, +2 ship buff = 16. Heck, my Wiz going to be running around with 24 Str. If you have maximum casting stat and decent Con, why not drop a few left-over points into Str, too? Makes low levels lots easier. Master's Touch + Greatsword + Web = win.

[Kmnh]

The safe number is somewhere above 450 - it's the "I rolled a 1 on disintegrate and survived" magic number.

If you have less than that, kill casters on sight and don't stop moving. You should do that on a high HP caster too, but the melee start crying about not being able to hit the mobs, so you stop and shield block every once in a while.

[balancetraveller]

Gotta say 280 HP sounds way low for the new Hard Shroud. 350 or even 400 sounds better.

[sweez]

Gonna have to disagree here. Circle gets the square.

As a sorc/wiz you should max (or come close) your primary stat, CHA/INT. Next is CON, but ignore STR at your own risk. Not only will it help at lower levels when you are still swinging the ol' greataxe, but at higher levels it will prevent you from being encumbered. This is an inconvenience for most of the game but, for example, when kiting the shadowfiends in ToD encumbered = dead.

There should be enough points in any guild to give a little love to STR.

Sure str has its value, but seriously you'd sacrifice con to get more str? I'd sacrifice a casting stat for a bit of str on a caster until you hit areas where your DCs actually matter (mostly vale/amrath, but now probably a bit earlier with the new content and bravery), and the LR and drop str. At 20, 8 base, 2 tome, 6 item , 2 ship buff gets you to 18 easy, what do you need more for exactly?

As for the OP, gear out and modify your toon till it's ready for the stuff you want to run, there's really no point in going to hard shroud or something similar with anything under 400 hp (unless you have evasion and/or a decent reflex save, which I doubt on a sorc). I imagine hard shroud is tougher than a lot of epics now, and even in the 'easy' epics you can get one-shotted with 350 or less hp pretty easy.

How did your 280 HP sorc fare in post-u12 normal shroud btw? Did you even run norm before you attempted hard? If not, why would you attempt hard before knowing you can sleepwalk through norm?

[Targonis]

This mindset that everyone MUST powergame to be able to handle Shroud on hard is pretty sad, considering that you are not looking at a melee here. Seriously, you may have doubts, but a sorcerer is NOT going to be in there as a melee, so this obsession here seems a bit off for a Shroud run. Different raids need different things, it's true, and there are gimped characters vs. decent characters, vs. powergamed characters where every last point of EVERYTHING must be according to a formula.

This is DDO, and players have been INVENTING new ways to build characters and play the game since launch. To require that everyone fit into the same mold is pretty weak.

[Sweyn]

400++

id kick a gimp 280hp fire savant from my shroud also.

Especially on a post U12 hard run

[Ushurak]

I have a capped sorc as well and with NO (zero, none, zilch) toughness I have 400 hp.
Granted my con is a 30 and I have some hp gear.

I am not personally comfortable with low hp on my sorc, but knowing he is not melee and therefore will not be front lining, I am not going to spend more feats and ap than needed.

My only concern with your build is your con.
In the defense of slightly lower con, if you were smart and placed the lacking stat points into dex (reflex) then you may be onto something. Reflex is my weakness and I find myself falling short in this area quite often.

Considering that Harry now spams meteor swarm like a fire spec crack head I would say you may be more survivable than a con/toughness build or at least equivalent.

I also despise the "you must assimilate" mentality though.
I do not reject sound advice, I just reject what sounds spoon fed.

The biggest problem you are going to find may not be that your build is gimped (there is a very real chance that it is an amazingly, survivable build); your biggest issue will be that you are not willing to fit into everyone else's mold because if your toon does work well it slaps their logic in the face. People don't like that even in a fantasy world.

If you find yourself taking alot of damage and the healers having to tote you around alot, then you may want to consider that your build is gimped...but not until you see that happening.

Also, once you start being seen in groups and they see that you can hold your own, you will find that you are more likely to get into groups just because they know you. On the other hand if you die alot and can't contribute because of this fact then your name will also get around and you will not be welcome.

Just use good common logic and you will do fine.

[Lunavera0351]

In general, arcane 450-500hp players have been playing longer, have better gear, know the quests better, are more survivable and are better casters than the 250-275hp ones. It's just more likely that the 250 sorc is a first character whose hand will need to be held, and the 500hp sorc is a multi TR who can probably solo the quest anyway.

It's not ALWAYS the case, not by a long shot, but it's accurate enough of the time that amazing low hp players often get autobooted...and then the 450 replacement is ****. It's a shame.

It is more than possible to be successful with lowish hp. But you don't need to sacrifice any casting ability whatsoever to get over 400hp, so why not do it?

Once again just to answer a already answered question, I have been working on my other characters that have had problems. For one like my bard. I knew I would have problems staying in the front lines as an elf bard, so I have been putting more focus into raising her hp. I have not had a problem with my sorc so I have not been giving her such a focus. Please read before asking questions. Thanks

[goodspeed]

on a 28 point sorc I hold 355hp. I had to start with 16 con, from their I grabbed a +2 tome,

a +6 con item,
I took toughness and took all 3 racial enhancements.
I selected con as my greater adaptability stat.
I bought the shreads for the mino's for an extra 20 hp,
farmed the favor from giant hold for an extra 10 hp

Eventually I'll work on my second greensteel and gain another 45 hp. bringing it to 400.

Now thats unbuffed. If I tack on ship buffs I can get an extra 20 con, and I can also give myself an extra 2 con from rage.

I went for dmg foremost and was able to take all the survival enhancements I needed as well as cap my elements dmg and jack up my secondary element dmg to top. It's really not that hard to get 300 hp even on a starter first life build. All ya gotta do is not flip con and toughness the bird.

[MRMechMan]

Once again just to answer a already answered question, I have been working on my other characters that have had problems. For one like my bard. I knew I would have problems staying in the front lines as an elf bard, so I have been putting more focus into raising her hp. I have not had a problem with my sorc so I have not been giving her such a focus. Please read before asking questions. Thanks

If you don't care about your sorcs hp, that's fine. You can definitely get away with less hp on a sorc than the typical bard, so that is a smart move on your part. The post wasn't 100% directed at you. I was just posting to tell the people that DO care about hp how to improve their totals.

[MRMechMan]

The safe number is somewhere above 450 - it's the "I rolled a 1 on disintegrate and survived" magic number.

If you have less than that, kill casters on sight and don't stop moving. You should do that on a high HP caster too, but the melee start crying about not being able to hit the mobs, so you stop and shield block every once in a while.

This. With any less than around that magic number-which is spot on-1s (and sometimes 2-5s or higher, epic disints can hvae save DC of 40+) will kill you outright. This is about the spikiest damage out there and the difference in survivability from 400hp to 500+hp is very noticable. Every extra chunk of hp whether from augments, guild buffs, exp con, etc play a huge part in those situations.

[Isharah]

CHA-build fleshies can go up to 500+.

Despite this, I seldom see arcanes running around in the 500s range unless they are warforged or one of those CON-builds.

Buffed HP at 420+ is safe for pretty much any raid in the game, assuming you are not going to tank.

If you do not plan to run epic raids or the high-level raids on elite, 350+ (buffed) is a safe number.

[morticianjohn]

Had a 17 sorc join my shroud today with 126 HP. I asked the group for donations and by the time he zoned into the quest he had ~250 and after rage and other party buffs he was sitting at 280. Anything lower than this for a lvl 17 means not only did you not prioritize HP, you also avoided/ignored HP options at times.

[JeisonBlade]

I have a capped first life warforged robosorc that runs around with 512 with just Rage spell and ship buff (477 standing HP)

starting CON of 16
+2 tome
+6 from Quorforged Docent
+2 from ship buff
+2 from racial enhancements

+30 from Racial Toughness III (I could fit IV for an extra +10 but I like his current setup so *shrug*)
+40 Superior False life from his Quorforged Docent of Battle
+20 Toughness from his Quorforged Docent of Battle
+15 Guild bonus from a guild augment slot on his cannith crafted Greater Evocation bracers
+10 Pirate Vitality from Greater Stalwart trinket
+10 Draconic Vitality feat from argonnessen favor
+45 Elemental Energy from a Mineral II Greensteel helm
+20 from Rage spell (I try to keep it up on myself constantly, the CON bonus boosts a sorcs tier III power as well)

Pretty sure thats all his bonuses.

note that if your an earth savant you get a bonus (+10 i think?) from your tier II prestige enhancement

[Siro]

280 hp is fine on normal Shroud if you've cannith crafted yourself a 33% fire absorb item.
280 hp is fine on hard Shroud if you've also got fire shield going
280 hp is fine on elite Shroud if you've also got 30 resist and keep recasting fire protection on yourself every time you eat a meteor to the face.

But it won't really help you if you do anything that involves disintegrate coming your way.

[msdesign]

First and foremost, that guy was not very wise to kick somebody for the HP a player can have. It is important, in fact, but important to a point to kick somebody without knowing what that char can do? I'll tell you:

I have a lvl 20 sorc, female elf, 304 HP / 2609 SP. Not a savant. Not a TR. Without any high-end items (the only major pack I have is Reavers, and I'm not using the Dragontouched vestment I got from there, I prefer my +20 HP Deathblock robe). I'm using a +6 CON belt to help. And I've played a few EPICs like Lords of Dust, Servants of the Overlord, and some in House P when some friends threw me some guest passes without biggie. I had a few deaths, but some of the stronger players died too. The tanks have HP and DPS; I, have lots of ranged spells with the +20% damage of capstone enhancement. Fire to ice, Ice to fire, and a few others, depends on the situation.

I like the way I play, and I have no problem with the people. And if I find a strange LFM mentioning min HP, I'll laugh at them with a /tell. Some of them have even asked me to join after I do that (like when a dwarf was asking min 3 digit xxx HP to do Tear of Dhakan about lvl 7 ~ 9 and my elf rogue had much less than that; he really asked me to join him!)

So, don't mind min HP inferior demanders. They don't know how to play. This is a strategy game, not a bull's competition.

[Isharah]

I have a lvl 20 sorc, female elf, 304 HP / 2609 SP. Not a savant. Not a TR. Without any high-end items (the only major pack I have is Reavers, and I'm not using the Dragontouched vestment I got from there, I prefer my +20 HP Deathblock robe).




So, don't mind min HP inferior demanders. They don't know how to play. This is a strategy game, not a bull's competition.

Strategy doesn't work versus the Conjoined Abishai's lightning strike, nor does it work with blades in eADQ.

With the content you mentioned though, 300 HP is already okay for those epics.

I suppose the best way to determine the min HP an arcane needs (without generalizing) is by first stating which quests/raids you want to run, and which roles you want to take.

[Crann]

I have a lvl 20 sorc, female elf, 304 HP / 2609 SP. Not a savant. Not a TR. Without any high-end items (the only major pack I have is Reavers....

That does not seem to be a good position of authority to be giving advice about hit point requirements of a Hard Shroud, or for a thread necro :)

[gerardIII]

So... U12 came out. I joined a Hard Shroud as a Fire Sorc with 280 Hitpoints, 3073 sp and got booted for not having enough Hitpoints! Never has this ever happend to me. I have high umd and can self heal.

My stats are:

Str 16
Dex 18
Con 24
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 34

I have worked on my dc and sr and usually have no issues killing in normal raids (greater evocation feat and item, +1,2 and +3 Cha items). However I am not a TR.

How many HP should a non Tr sorc have to be raid/epic ready? Someone told me I should have 400, but what I would have to give up to have that would decrease the effectiveness of my spells.

Toughness is a must-have, pure classes at lvl 20 who have at least 1 Toughness feat have HP ending with 2 or 7 (except maybe DoS and SD prestige in stance) as Toughness gives +22hp and all other HP bonuses are multiples of 5. Drop a Mental Toughness and get Toughness.

280hp self healing is ok in hard shroud.

Fire Savant is not very useful at endgame.

[Kmnh]

The basic "don't get eaten by arraetrikos' random meteor swarms" number, 404. With that much and clever use of protection from elements/fire shield, you can do most raids, as long as you don't pull aggro. Being above 400 helps on the abbot asteroids puzzle, but that doesn't matter that much to most people.

From there, you have to pick if you want to play a rogue type of sorcerer or a barbarian type.

If you are going for the rogue type, take the subtle spellcasting enhancement and equip a "stealth strike" item. The magewright cloak is an easy item to farm, but you van get it from cannith crafting if you want to. Try to avoid pulling aggro, even if it means lowering your DPS by a bit.

If you are going for the barbarian type, try to reach somewhere above 500 HP, get some healing amp and a good shield. Take the boss' aggro and shield-block. Sorcerers with decent HP and gear are pretty good tanks for normal raids and playable on hard.

[MRMechMan]

Having decent hp and having decent DC/spell pen/sp are not mutually exclusive.

You can have both, why not get both?

If you are aiming for 500-600 on a sorc you might need to make some sacrifices but to get to low-mid 400s is takes little to no sacrifice...so why not do it?

[KingOfCheese]

I wouldn't even think of leaving home without having at least 700.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af284/KingOfCheese/Sockyhps.jpg

On a more serious note, I've had a variety of sorcs and wizzies at level 20 (currently 4) of varying races. Here's what I've come to believe:

1) the more hps the merrier so long as you aren't sacrificing other important things to get them.
2) but, if you learn how to move you can get away with surprisingly little and be entirely effective in essentially all game content (short of tanking some bosses--which can be done with higher hps a lot easier).
3) 300+ is good enough if you have good mobility and tactics.
4) 400+ is a nice safety buffer if you don't have great mobility or tactics (especially with self-healing).
5) 500+ is the gravy-zone. Tons of buffer for mistakes or for daring moments. I try to get everyone in this zone. But no big deal if it takes a while to get there.

[78mackson]

One guy in my guild has 280 hp on his drow squishy sorc///have never seen him die - but I would qualify him as uber. Personally, I wouldn't feel safe unless I had 550 or so. Internet connection and laptop isn't really what it used to be! :D

[Sircowdog]

Its probably already been said a couple times, but....

A sorc should have enough HP to survive the biggest single hit possible, and enough left over to last until you can cast a reconstruct(if WF), or a UMD'd heal scroll.

More is better, of course, but really I think the amount a HP a sorc SHOULD have is highly dependent upon personal skill levels, and not some arbitrary number pulled out of someones.....hat.

[good_ole_corwin]

A sorc should have enough HP to survive the biggest single hit possible, and enough left over to last until you can cast a reconstruct(if WF), or a UMD'd heal scroll.

So... 1k+? Would love to see the breakdown on that one. Because epic conjoined abishai does that when spitting fire and Ive seen epic spinner of shadows deal 1k HPs with that special attack of hers too.

[Crann]

So... 1k+? Would love to see the breakdown on that one. Because epic conjoined abishai does that when spitting fire and Ive seen epic spinner of shadows deal 1k HPs with that special attack of hers too.

I think maybe that should have been "unavoidable burst damage" that he was refering to.

I like the earlier poster's number of 400hp for a meteor swarm from Harry. That is the most aggro-less, position irrevelant burst I can think of.

Even that can be avoided, but no matter how good your twitch skills, the lag monster will be on Harry's side from time to time.

[Terebinthia]

Yay, thread necro!

Just popping in to say I love love love guild augment slot items, too, for adding that little extra bit of HP oomph. Very well worth considering. Rocking a guildslot lifeshield of invulnerability on my fleshy arcane ATM :)

[Carpone]

First and foremost, that guy was not very wise to kick somebody for the HP a player can have. It is important, in fact, but important to a point to kick somebody without knowing what that char can do? I'll tell you:

I have a lvl 20 sorc, female elf, 304 HP / 2609 SP. Not a savant. Not a TR. Without any high-end items (the only major pack I have is Reavers, and I'm not using the Dragontouched vestment I got from there, I prefer my +20 HP Deathblock robe).
It's hard to take you seriously when you can't do the specific raid being discussed (Shroud). Also, you have no savant prestige? You might want to read up on the class a bit, as the savant enhancements are awesome. There's really nothing better to be spent on enhancements for a sorcerer.

[Sircowdog]

I think maybe that should have been "unavoidable burst damage" that he was refering to.

Yes, I assumed this was understood. But maybe I should have been a little more specific with my wording.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The general rule is: you need 100HP more than you did last mod to complete the same end game quests. Oh... And the Shroud is always an end game quest. :cool:

[sirgog]

Low HP sorcs have to run every time a mob enters melee range at high level. They have to dodge every Disintegrate, even ones they don't see coming, and they just die when Cometfalled. Plus they often can't survive the one hit most traps will get you with if you run through them carefully.

High HP ones can play that way when it's appropriate - plus they can ALSO have the option to abuse two of the best items in the game (Torc and Conc-Opp items), or stand their ground when they get aggro (which as the highest DPS class in the game will happen, often).

[wax_on_wax_off]

Low HP sorcs have to run every time a mob enters melee range at high level. They have to dodge every Disintegrate, even ones they don't see coming, and they just die when Cometfalled. Plus they often can't survive the one hit most traps will get you with if you run through them carefully.

High HP ones can play that way when it's appropriate - plus they can ALSO have the option to abuse two of the best items in the game (Torc and Conc-Opp items), or stand their ground when they get aggro (which as the highest DPS class in the game will happen, often).

This.

I leveled my original character when I first starting playing DDO and didn't know much. 28 point human sorcerer with only 14 base constitution.

These days I'm rocking close to 450 HP all buffed up and will scrape 500 if I can get a few more things (guild slot, +1 exceptional con).

It really sucks as a sorcerer not having the freedom to just blast away due to not being able to survive the repercussions. In this sense, HP = DPS.