Welcome to DDO, game for the chosen and those lucky enough to start playing early.

[xandariant]

WARNING - VERY LONG POST. If you don't intend to read it all, don't read at all.
Turbine moderators and every person in there is very welcome to read this.

Some of you old timers like me have spend countless hours in Fallout2 and in there after completing first quest (temple of trails) i got a blue pajama with yellow stripes and big 13 on the back. For almost whole time playing it I felt special, cause I was called the chosen for completing that easy trial and hole village awaited for my return to help them.
Really that was something. I also had so much fun playing F2, running in desert or riding my car, searching unknown locations etc. I had rather strong character so playing wasn't that hard, yet challenges were in there when I solo killed Navarro without Powerarmor (well i got it in time while killing them, but it was sure fun to start without it and die countless times (glory for save/reload)).

Unfortunately after playing 2 years in DDO, having 10 toons (5 true gimps and 5 I would say strong) I have to say there is just nothing special and no fun left in this game. I saw my friends stopping playing and I said, no way I will stop. I love this game. Yet, not anymore.

There are just problems with how this game works.
Game is totally unbalanced, divided for old timers with gear and new ppl who struggle to became worthy, but in the end all old folks who were there since F2P or even before that have all total advantages in every way thanks to just starting before others. Those ppl I call The chosen, cause they have a way more that others. Not for free, they worked hard for what they have, but new ppl will just need a way more time to do the same.
List like making GS when shroud was run daily and we almost were falling asleep doing it but still we go what we needed and now we have gear.
Those youngsters (new in game) don't have that chance and wont have it for a long time.
I know old content was quite easy over time, so you scaled it. Sure. Now lvl 20 toons fail a lot. Ppl write about it for a long time that fails don't make ppl have fun, just like grinding. Yet devs, moderators and all ppl in there just don't want to listen. Sad but true as they say.
So what that my guild leader did elite Amarach quests solo or duo on lvl 16, most ppl does not and you only scale tis game for those awesome ppl who post over forums how great they are. They truly are great with their toons, but that is like 5% of ppl playing this game? Answer yourself who do you design this game for - 5% of ppl or 95%?

All raids over last 3 updates were so much boosted that you need A+ class toons to do them (Abbot, Reavers Fate, epic DQ, epic VON, even Shroud now). I think all new ppl would regret buying those packs for raids or GS as it used to be in VoT pack.
Really, fortunately I had fun in there before you raised all that hell.
I know those were easy but you all forgot those were made on lvl, and doable on the lvl. Not anymore.
In one hand you give ppl bravery bonus and say "go for it on a lvl, hard/elite" and sad reality is that there is not a single raid possible to do on a lvl.

Welcome to static group or pack of geared ppl or get lost
This is kind of attitude DDO gives to all new ppl. You won't get anything great anymore, completing raid (or epic raids) is only for the strongest. No chance for normal ppl. Pug raids are almost no more, no way to just run with a bunch of unknown ppl to have fun in raids. I can do quests, but you all know that in time you want to get items, and those are in raids, so you will always stay that weak person.

Reavers Fate:
I remember great wipe in Reavers Fate on a lvl. There is almost no way to do it except for ppl who are in there TRing and having super 36 point builds with a lot of items that will make them strong to do it. Unfortunately my party didn't have more than 3 such ppl, so we fails big time.
Also doing disintegration and boosting electrical dmg in Reavers is just really stupid. That raid has a penalty box. Turn it off if you want so have many deaths, cause now its almost undoable. Well maybe barbs or heavy TRs with a lot of absorptions can do it, but no normal casual players who like fun.

Abbot
I don't even to know what to start with, maybe lag.
Lag kills this raid. It has nice items, even before upgrading them they wee nice. But this raid was always very hard to do because of lag and puzzles that with lag are even harder. I watched how ppl did them on YouTube and I saw, they didn't have that much problem with them cause it all just worked. I tried and it was a disaster.
I'm not talking about game lag, cause 90% of the time I had no lag in before and after Abbot, but inside was a lag-fest each time he was down or mobs spawned.

What did you do about it - thats just stupid.
Instead of repairing raid code (that for 100% is the reason for that - since a lot of ppl in my guild and pugs have the same experience) you just gave boss a lot more HP, even if it was as it should be, it shouldn't be so laggy, so it kinda made it in the end even and doable. Don't forget boosting his dmg with metas.
Now, you nerfed ID and walk on water and in the end gave elite Abbot evasion, not to mention he is somehow almost resistant to disintegration that was the best spell for him.
So when i thought that there is a chance to do this raid in near future i think its more than running epics, and not worth effort even for best of items.
Lucky for me I have my stuff so you may call me "the chosen" - you were the one who had such luck of getting this items before it was made almost impossible to obtain it!!

LVL20 Raids
I kinda wonder why don't you do raids on N/H/E and separately lvl 20 instead of epic. If party have at least 1 lvl 20, whole party has to go for boosted lvl 20 raid that should have scaled everything including rewards chances.

Epic DQ
I run completions since U10, cause with massive lag that DQ gets (only Abbot has bigger), with scaling on lags there is just too much dmg per person, even with stacking to finis the raid.
I'm not even interested what did you do to this raid now, but I never wrote you lowered dmg so even with less HP i don't think it will be doable, maybe I will check it before I will go away.

Epic VON
The biggest problem was too much HP since boosting and you finally noticed it, that is good.
This is only one raid that i see still pugging on epic so i kinda think it is OK, but writing it will probably make some ppl write posts about how much it is "too easy".

Shroud
That is a LOL!
You managed to make a lot of raid unplayable, and Shroud was still daily raid (every 3 day, but most runned it daily on different toons). Guess what?! Not anymore, since even if Aretrikols lost HP on hard/elite, blades (that for me should have evasion roll - only logical) kills everyone even on normal.
And a day before U12 my TR was flagged to run shroud. NOT ANYMORE. I won't do it on elite or even normal after your beautifully wipes you gave us. Thank you so much.

VoD and HoX
For ppl who didn't notice those raids were buffed in Updates 7 to 9 if I'm right, or closed to that. Eventually it was hard to do elite without pots with 3 healers (with good healers it still worked), but still doable. Probably one of the best raids t do but items in there aren't kinda worth it, so i passed. Yet if I want a bit of challenge I would go there and with a bit of non-lagged luck it is OK.

MA
This raid seems to be OK, aside of really boring titan fight.

LoB
I played it once (soon I will say why - next point) on normal and i have to say - very well designed raid, but in the end with sick dmg and hard to do. I think it still is nice to do it, and hope to find a party for it in future. As long as i know it is still too much scaled - as a lot of ppl wrote in lama forum. Guess Turbine prefers to hear those raging barbarians who can only scream, we want bigger challenges I guess it has something to do with the fast the are louder.

Epic fail = TRing time
Since all raids got harder and harder a lot of ppl just got border with only grinding epics, and went for bravery bonus. Now a lot of ppl who were raiding and have great gears for many lvls, just TRs countlessly like me guild leader. Why to bother to do raid anymore.

Prices
When i logged on U12, after seeing it in Lammania i was really disappointed. That was the last nail to my "playing DDO" coffin. I just bought some TPs to have my 550TP (original Lammania price). I even got 800TP, so I thought, great! I will buy that plat bank.
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't impressed that you finally done it after 2 years (at leas on my side) of writing on forum we want to store plat in bank. Neither it is bound with normal bank and I bought it up to 60 slots. I thought bank was expensive, this is only for plat. Turbine need to get some cast so 200TP is a really fair price.

I logged in and I check and I check prices. 1500TP for challenges pack and 500TP for shared bank.
Great price. I have to say, you got us all fulled. You had low prices on Lamma to ensure ppl wouldn't scream it is way too much, and on live you went all up.
Ppl said that U11 pack will be expensive and we got it for 650TP - a reasonable price, I wonder what happened with that thinking in last update. Or is it just a way of you saying "you wont get artificer that cheap". Anyway I'm disappointed, cause I thought I those challenges will make game more lively. Not anymore for me. I won't pay that much for them. The number of quests is similar to Sands and that pack is a lot cheaper.

In the end
I kinda want to ask "Why does Turbine never hears players", but in the end I think it's just poor way that informations are passed in there.

So way to go Turbine.
I'm really disappointed in Turbine staff.

Its like 2 weeks for me to finish my TR, and I won't play anymore.
Not in this game, maybe i will be back in 3-6 months to check if there is any fun left in playing this game.

And for those dumb posts that dissolve ppl thoughts i will answer in the end of this post:
a) No you can't have my stuff, cause I MIGHT return if this game will become reasonable again.
b) Thank you but I don't need wishes of having fun elsewhere, cause I will probably do have fun and if I won't I will just go another place/game to have it.

[xandariant]

I forgot few points, sorry i wrote a lot anyway, but read this:

Get to know ppl
For a person like me having fun means getting to know ppl, playing with them etc. So why scaling difficulty you force pro players to make more static groups? It kinda kills the game if you didn't notice. I see more LFMs lately saying "I need a guide" and even more like "only strong players", "have over 400hp", "have DC 42+", "be awesome" and finally the ones that i just love "know me". In other words ppl are closing their wide selection of ppl/toons they want to play with. If someone will say this doesn't affect how fresh, new to the game ppl fell - GUESS AGAIN!

In time old timer get a break, or don't want to play anymore, maybe see something that is more fun to do. You loose ppl, and fresh blood will just never have chances to be that good as old timers when ppl expects them to be. In the end its LOOSE IT ALL attitude.
I'm kinda disappointed in Turbine policy. Not that much in the ppl that are forced to make parties like this, cause noone likes to wipe cause 2 or 3 ppl don't know that to do, but still with current situation its just "be A+ so we won't wipe". While I can live with that (most of the time), a lot of ppl are tired with it and I understand them.

So game gives you 3 options:
- join very good guild (usually very hard without being strong)
- have friends who will help you a lot with getting strong
- have problems with joining any party hosted by longterm players.

Endless grind
In here i want to price Turbine. It is one point where I really see you working.
Bravery bonus and giving a lot more xp in quests is just great. I really love it. It made me again run almost all quests not only do a grind on selected few worth of running. This was a great improvement and make me very happy on a toon that I'm finishing.
Still you don't want to hear about making epics not grindable... Why? Cause they are called epic? When will devs finally see that more grind does't mean more fun?
I see really great items in non-epics quests and way easier to obtain than my Demonscale Armor or Staff of Arcane power that i grinded forever for parts. I finally got border in and I will probably never get my Thornlord shard for my ranger build and Torc shard, yes that sucks cause i did over 80 epic DQs, the same with my Sirroco seal, just doesn't drop when I'm in party. Those new almost epic items drop a lot on elites like House C elites - that is great, yet epics suck. Yet for epics.... Welcome to the grind world. Yet I will sign out now.

The other thing you did great against heavy grinders (yes, i don't like that and I'm not proud i grinded a lot) was giving sands scrolls trade. That is a great move even if made ppl loose worth in 30mpp scrolls, epic sands got just a step closer to being fun. Only a little step but still.
I sure hope to see shard/seal trade across all epic items, but that is just my hopes.

Also another endless grind are epic tokens.
There is a quite large post in Lama forum about lessing cost of augument crystals. Those are just o fun at all. Getting 30 Epic Dungeon Tokens just to make my weapon bypass Good dmg? Really? Really?
Not for me. I can live with using another weapons, crafted or something or just asking artificer (since last update). I prefer to get 20 tokens to get Heart for TR. Yes getting 20 for that seems to be fair.
If I would to upgrade every single epic item that i have (probably around 20 not counting event items) I would have to farm whole months. It's just not worth it. Yet there is not a single Turbine answer in that post so i get that just goes to a wide space.

20th completions
The over all idea was not bad. Unfortunately none listened to threads to make that list:
a) separate for epic and non-epic completions - a shame that you don't want to reward ppl running epic raids.
b) make list stuffed with ALL items not a selection of items. I see many disappointed ppl they don't get what they want on 20th completion and after doing 20, you just make them run 40, and more. I know the best that is not funny when i have 45 completions only on my arcane and i never saw litany on my 20th/40th completion list and had to take whatever since i got staff earlier. Just as Endless grind says - its not fun.

[red_cardinal]

I'm on the same page. No point in playing anymore. No new prestiges - no fun!
Because... say... I may want to build a Drow cleric warpriest with an Assassin racial prestige.

[mrphlegm]

talking as a relatively new player here;

l2p

[Cogdoc]

OMG! L2P...:)

You are really talking like a relatively new player. This is wow style, we dont do it like that here, no. Look, this is what we do:

OP: Problem!
Reply1: Hehh not another of these threads!
Reply2: Grabbing popcorn
Reply3: Look guys if you cant differenciate between D20 ruleset and 4.5 Forgotten realms extended, lets just go to a library and read some books, mmmkay?
Reply4: I got the same problem! I quit, but I am very sad as in the old days it was much better, but now its *****!
Reply5: Look if Godmode18 can do it with only a 48 point build, it must be doable for most of the players. Seriously, shroud run over 4 minutes? What are you doing, picking your nose?
Reply6: Dear turbine! Dont cater for the 5% of the playerbase please, waterworks is already a challenge, and kobolds will always hate you!

Watch and learn, we use more refined methods on DDO forums. Or I could just say....L2P...:)

Cogdoc

[FastTaco]

I got the same problem! I quit, but I am very sad as in the old days it was much better, but now its *****!

[Kmnh]

OK, that's a beautiful wall of text, but what exactly are you complaining about?


This game is a lot more fun if you play with people that you know. They don't have to be good players, but you have to know where they shine and where they fall short.

There are people who really like juggling cooldowns of DPS abilities and drinking pots in a timely fashion. It is challenging and interesting to them. If you have one of these people in your party, he will be a more reliable boss tank than the ovwergeared guy who isn't paying attention.


There are people who really like managing costs and clickies and spells. They can keep crowd control up on the epic chronoscope endfight for 20 minutes without drinking a pot. You want these people to be on CC duty, not the palemaster with a DC of 45 who dies over and over to the dragon breaths.


Think of other important stuff in the game. Kiting. Setting up kill zones. Healing. In all these, skill and effort have a huge impact. Specially effort. You don't want the guy who gives up when unexpected stuff happens.


PUG raids led by good leaders will take all of these into account and find the right people for the right roles, or close enough, based on what each person likes/is good at. Bad PUGs will force people on roles they don't like or don't know based on class. How do you design a raid that is easy for the bad PUGs but not boring for the good ones?

How many good PUGs have you been in? How many bad ones?

tl;dr: The social aspect is a huge part of the game. Join a raiding guild/channel, get to know the crazy endgame players, your experience will be much better.

Soon you will start asking for harder raids, not easier ones :)

[mobrien316]

The game is not perfect, but it is still loads of fun for me.

[Qaliya]

Gosh. I'm a new player and didn't realize I was supposed to hate everything this much. :)

[rnor6084]

For the most part you are right. But, of course it does not hold true for everyone.

Was here at day one but quit 6 months ago. I have jack and **** for gear. The grind is absurd and i do not care to spend that much time searching for shiny digital objects.

With the exception of a lucky few, new players stand little chance of catching up with the vets. Especially with the way new players are treated by the vets.

[Notajedi]

I am not a level 20, I don't have epic gear.

I knew what to expect by reading before I joined. For me the fun is trying the first time, and learning. If I fail, fine.

The group did not fail, because it was well explained beforehand on what to expect.

I started as F2P. I have never reached level 20. I have not TRd.

From reading this post, you think of yourself as a power gamer, and when the game gets challenging it is the game's fault. Luckily for you, SWTOR comes out in December.

[FastTaco]

How do you design a raid that is easy for the bad PUGs but not boring for the good ones?


Risk vs reward, normal shouldn't be as much risk nor reward. It's currently not much easier in normal shroud and elite could use more reward if it remains the same.


And Abbot, difficult on normal for pugs but theres almost no incentive for melee's to run it and drop rate is very poor. Elite isn't much harder but the rewards stink as well.

This isn't how you do it...

[mobrien316]

With the exception of a lucky few, new players stand little chance of catching up with the vets. Especially with the way new players are treated by the vets.

Perhaps I just look at it differently, but I don't see why anyone would want to catch up with anyone else. I guess if you are brand new and join a guild that does nothing but run epic raids, you will quickly feel overwhelmed and lose interest.

However, if you start playing and simply enjoy the at-level quests (rather than viewing them as a mindless, pointless grind until you can get to engame stuff for "real fun") there is no point in trying to catch up with anyone. One of the reasons I like to TR is because running lower level content with a lower level character is fun and challenging. Hanging out at level 20 for a while is fun, too. The idea of TR is one of the best parts in DDO, if not the best. You can work your way to level 20, build up some good gear, run some epic content, and when you start to feel even the slightest bit bored, you can TR and start all over again at level one with the same character and (eventually, as you rise in levels) the same gear. I think that's great!

I really couldn't care less what gear other people have and what quests other people are running. There are enough quests for me to enjoy and enough gear for me to find/craft/build to keep me interested.

I know some people live for the endgame, and feel that playing a level 5 character is boring and pointless as compared to playing a level 20 character with awesome gear. But I think the game allows for that, as well, since you only have to get to 20 once and then you can just leave the character there, running epics if you like them, forever after.

[spyyder976]

you also could have started at the beginning of DDO's release; and no I didn't read the rest of your post-I didn't see a reason to do so.

[badkhan]

WARNING - VERY LONG POST.

Welcome to static group or pack of geared ppl or get lost
This is kind of attitude DDO gives to all new ppl. You won't get anything great anymore, completing raid (or epic raids) is only for the strongest. No chance for normal ppl. Pug raids are almost no more, no way to just run with a bunch of unknown ppl to have fun in raids. I can do quests, but you all know that in time you want to get items, and those are in raids, so you will always stay that weak person.



I'll agree with you here. It's also too easy to answer : "Well just meet new people already! Make friends !". Some of us enjoy their small guild where there isn't 20 people online all the time. Some of us do not want to be part of some uber-TR channel. Some of us enjoy logging in and finding a PUG for a quick 30-45 minutes gaming session before RL responsibilities call. Well i just learned that, if i wanted to play this way, i was better off soloing until i reached lvl 16 where i can find groups for Vale pretty easily. Sad really.

[Kmnh]

Risk vs reward, normal shouldn't be as much risk nor reward. It's currently not much easier in normal shroud and elite could use more reward if it remains the same.


And Abbot, difficult on normal for pugs but theres almost no incentive for melee's to run it and drop rate is very poor. Elite isn't much harder but the rewards stink as well.

This isn't how you do it...

There are low risk raids in the game. I don't play them, they are boring :D

[Drekisen]

Honestly I think the cure here is to NOT to do anything hasty and simply take a break and try out some other MMO's or maybe just take a break from MMO's period.

Honestly I have played a lot of other MMO's and DDO is still great, altho I do become more and more fond of LoTRO every time I play it as well.

But really it seems like a lot of people are just obsessed with DDO....try something new....keep doing the same thing and eventually no matter what it is it will become stale.

I either play other MMO's for a while or do RL stuff more intensely and when I finally get back to DDO I really enjoy it again.

I don't care about keeping up in MMO's anymore, I play at my pace and generally enjoy it all the more just for that reason. I'm finally at a point where there is a bit of content I haven't seen in DDO again after 4+ years of OCD DDO playing. :D

I only have one character I level anymore, my TR wiz, I havebeen working on my first TR for this character for over 6 months probably LOL. I stowed all my other server toons and made the alts on ARGO farmer/mules. This game is supposed to be fun....not a status symbol and/or job. 17 characters for me was madness, if I wanna try another class I will wait until I am ready to TR again or just enjoy watching someone else play that class. I don't wanna do everything at one time anymore, because for me anyways it was making me blind.

[spyyder976]

the problem is that all you elitists only want the most elite gear from the most elite raids and you're mad that you can't walk in and steal it from level 1 kobolds

[Nephilia]

Almost moved to tears by u, sir. Seriously. +1

[katz]

talking as a relatively new player here;

l2p

yah. yer new. lets take a little stroll, shall we? xandariant. look him up in my.ddo. i'll wait while you go check.

back already? ok, lets start, shall we? he has a stable full of 20s loaded with green steel, epic gear, and raid gear galore. every toon has gear to drool over. even his least geared 20th level toon has one true epic item. so no stranger to epics and raids

next turn your attention to the left side, under his player icon. oh look, he's in Phoenix Knights. hmmm. 82nd level guild. lets take a look at the guild leaderboard on my.ddo, shall we? oh look, the only guilds higher level on his server are Over Raided (100) and Righteous Ire (88).

if THIS person says "raids are ridiculous" i'm inclined to believe him.

l2p indeed. do some research before you shoot yourself in the foot next time

[mystafyi]

so no stranger to epics and raids

xand is no stranger to mah backpack. :D:D

[Zlingerdark]

I'll agree with you here. It's also too easy to answer : "Well just meet new people already! Make friends !". Some of us enjoy their small guild where there isn't 20 people online all the time. Some of us do not want to be part of some uber-TR channel. Some of us enjoy logging in and finding a PUG for a quick 30-45 minutes gaming session before RL responsibilities call. Well i just learned that, if i wanted to play this way, i was better off soloing until i reached lvl 16 where i can find groups for Vale pretty easily. Sad really.

I concur.

[In_Like_Flynn]

Gosh. I'm a new player and didn't realize I was supposed to hate everything this much. :)Awesome. Simply awesome.

Oh, and I disagree with the OP's exaggerations in every way.

[Infant]

Risk vs reward, normal shouldn't be as much risk nor reward.
This isn't how you do it...

That's crazy talk, right there! You see, CC was way more risk and reward at 25 than at 20. Easy to complete at 20 for 200 shards, way harder at 25 for 300 shards.

Yet there were lots of players who were complaining about not being able to complete at 25!

You know, it's not fair that that guy who played a lot longer than me and is better geared/skilled can complete a quest I can't.

There are always people who complain. About everything. Every update.

It's impossible to balance content for these people. No risk and no reward could ever satisfy them.

Infant

P.S.: I am not telling in any way that U12 is good/balanced/whatever. I just want to wait and see. Try several times and ask for advice before complaining.

[adsecula]

OMG! L2P...:)

You are really talking like a relatively new player. This is wow style, we dont do it like that here, no. Look, this is what we do:

OP: Problem!
Reply1: Hehh not another of these threads!
Reply2: Grabbing popcorn
Reply3: Look guys if you cant differenciate between D20 ruleset and 4.5 Forgotten realms extended, lets just go to a library and read some books, mmmkay?
Reply4: I got the same problem! I quit, but I am very sad as in the old days it was much better, but now its *****!
Reply5: Look if Godmode18 can do it with only a 48 point build, it must be doable for most of the players. Seriously, shroud run over 4 minutes? What are you doing, picking your nose?
Reply6: Dear turbine! Dont cater for the 5% of the playerbase please, waterworks is already a challenge, and kobolds will always hate you!

Watch and learn, we use more refined methods on DDO forums. Or I could just say....L2P...:)

Cogdoc

Thanks for making me laugh. Its hard not to feel the pain of all the people here so a little light humor helps. Sadly my subscription was paid not long ago so i guess i will play for a little while.. but i will take a break after it runs out and see if i cant find a new home after it runs out.

I believe the best days of playing was nights(here in europe) playing with new people in CC a year ago. Before they all got superboosted to fit godmode18's playstyle. i could get a new group every night and i had fun... and yeah i got a lot of items and fun! I think Turbine (devs?) forgot its me and my friends that paid for their food, cars and swimming pools? Well guess Turbine is now officially on the same list as codemasters for me. (NEVER AGAIN)

Hope it changes but im a very tired player and will not hold my breath...

5 years + i have been paying for me and my wifes account. Guess you dont need it anymore. Good luck.

[grodon9999]

Dude . . . stuff got easier in U12 except for Shroud. Think about it and hold the D0000000M!!!!

[TDarkchylde]

Dude . . . stuff got easier in U12 except for Shroud. Think about it and hold the D0000000M!!!!
Abbot and Reaver say "hi."

[katz]

Abbot and Reaver say "hi."

rofl :D

[grodon9999]

Abbot and Reaver say "hi."

Really? Didn't run them yet but I saw the abbot getting evasion and chuckled a little. Looks like monks/monk-splashes will be ideal for that.

What happened with Reaver?

[Crystalizer]

from devs posts on these forums turbine seems to be quite happy with ddo, which is fine
there are many concerns yes, just don't feel forced to play if you don't have fun anymore
i wouldn't spoil the joyce of newcomers who discover stormreach, ddo has much to offer
even if this is true that the gap between old hardcore players and new ones is now so huge that we almost have several communities in one
i realized that the last night, i joined a pug on a TR build and the lead simply dropped a newcomer cuz his build was squishy and he had no clue about what was going on and so was slowing us
i am curious to see how ddo will replace leavers by new players, but since turbine is saying that everything is allright i am quite happy for them all devs & newcomers :)

[Sonofmoradin]

Warning: Very short post. 2 years you call yourself and oldtimer?

[TDarkchylde]

Really? Didn't run them yet but I saw the abbot getting evasion and chuckled a little. Looks like monks/monk-splashes will be ideal for that.

What happened with Reaver?

All I'll say is have a Madstone Rod ready in case the healer catches an overcharge.

[somenewnoob]

Cliff notes: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
:p

[SoloPhalanx]

WARNING - VERY LONG POST. If you don't intend to read it all, don't read at all.
Turbine moderators and every person in there is very welcome to read this.

I know those were easy but you all forgot those were made on lvl, and doable on the lvl. Not anymore.
In one hand you give ppl bravery bonus and say "go for it on a lvl, hard/elite" and sad reality is that there is not a single raid possible to do on a lvl.

Read it up to there.

[Crystalizer]

is that cross-posting ?

[Indoran]

I have a friend who started playing this year... he has a day job but he plays like 20 hrs a week... he is finishied with his GS for 3 toons, he has 1 eSoS and some other epic items.

The first time he ran ToD he tanked Horoth.

... Newbs can have fun too.

The problem is not with newbs... is with lazy ppl who never inform themselves on how to be barely survivable / useful in a raid.

Like trapmonkeys who only do traps in an epic quest (who hasn't seen those?) or things like that...

If you think the game is too hard for noobs and too expensive it's ok... maybe yes, the new pack is expensive but you can play it for FREE... and you have 10 toons... you can play it for free 50 times a day!!!!

plat bank... use a friend instead!

It's not like they tax you for giving money to other ppl!

[BrightAsh]

Looking through the drama, he is kinda right.

If you are a casual player NOT in a decent guild, raids are becoming more and more off limits. That is a shame. Even a very important raid like Shroud is becoming very hard for those.

Turbine went over the top to confirm the opinion of a minority of elite forum visitors, who do have the biggest vote somehow. This is not a personal attack on anyone who feels it this way. It's just how it is. People lose their ability to see through a beginners eyes, lost all grip on that part, forgot how it was. Turbine seems to lose that view as well.

[sacredguyver]

plat bank... use a friend instead!

It's not like they tax you for giving money to other ppl!
This. No need to spend TP, and you're only limited by how close your friend is to the plat cap (just over 4 mil).


Every time something new is released or old stuff updated, it's going to be very challenging and that's due to people not knowing how to do it yet. Once the right strategies are figured out, it ill become a cakewalk again. Yes, this includes Elite Shroud (though I do agree that the blades should grant an evasion roll). We've barely had Update 12 for a day, and even before then, people were QQ'ing and crying "DOOooOOOOoooOMMM!!!111!!!eleventy-one!!1!" If you don't like the way things are going, fine, you don't have to stick around, but don't waste your time complaining to those that don't have a problem with the game and are willing to make the effort to relearn how to play old content.

[karsion]

Seriously, Turbine, fix the freaking forums. It is bad enough I need to log i everytime on my browser but it is logging out during writing


OMG! L2P...:)

You are really talking like a relatively new player. This is wow style, we dont do it like that here, no. Look, this is what we do:

OP: Problem!
Reply1: Hehh not another of these threads!
Reply2: Grabbing popcorn
Reply3: Look guys if you cant differenciate between D20 ruleset and 4.5 Forgotten realms extended, lets just go to a library and read some books, mmmkay?
Reply4: I got the same problem! I quit, but I am very sad as in the old days it was much better, but now its *****!
Reply5: Look if Godmode18 can do it with only a 48 point build, it must be doable for most of the players. Seriously, shroud run over 4 minutes? What are you doing, picking your nose?
Reply6: Dear turbine! Dont cater for the 5% of the playerbase please, waterworks is already a challenge, and kobolds will always hate you!

Watch and learn, we use more refined methods on DDO forums. Or I could just say....L2P...:)

Cogdoc

You made my day, that response is so full of win :D

And to the OP: you say they don't listen yet they scaled the raids towards hardcore gamers. That is a contradiction. They are listening only they listen to very vocal group of hardcore players. People complained that some of those raids were too easy while they have run them 100+ times with a group of 12 toons level 18-20, many after multiple TRs and geared in gs items that they look like a tree from Chernobyl. Let's remember those raids on Elite are respectively 19 (Shroud) and 16 (Reaver's and Abbot). Saying they are too easy for a such overlevelled and overgeared bunch is so missing the point it is not even funny. There is no point in adjusting them so old players can enjoy them, they should be adjusted towards the new players.

P.s. Yeah, I know not many were really screaming for Abbot to be made more difficult but yet they are those who are saying that is good that some shortcuts and "easy buttons" were removed in this level 16 raid that has a tendency to fail even for capped toons and almost no one is PUGing it.

[azrael4h]

Was it really necessary to post this in at least two (if not more, I didn't check) sub-forums?

[Tholar]

Can somebody give cliff notes please. I didn't want to read it all, so I complied with his wishes and read none of it. I am curious though.

[somenewnoob]

Can somebody give cliff notes please. I didn't want to read it all, so I complied with his wishes and read none of it. I am curious though.


Cliff notes: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
:p

Already did!

[Thrudh]

Its like 2 weeks for me to finish my TR, and I won't play anymore.

This was my favorite part (see my sig)

[Xionanx]

Sadly I almost never play DDO anymore, I spend more times on the forums trying to convince the devs to fix things then I do actually playing. I would LOVE to log in one day and have "Fun" playing again, but every time I do I get this overwhelming sense of dread. I could go into a long list of things that need to be fixed and changed but I'm also starting to get to the point where I dont even care enough about attempting to make it better anymore.

It's becoming clear the the "Direction" the game is going now is not the "Vision" that was presented years ago when it came out; and its certainly not what I imagine the game COULD be and SHOULD be.

Luckily for me and everyone else here, DDO is NOT the only game in town. If you take a few minutes and look at what else is out there you'll probably find something better. I recommend ArcheAge.:p

[Thrudh]

Sadly I almost never play DDO anymore, I spend more times on the forums trying to convince the devs to fix things then I do actually playing. I would LOVE to log in one day and have "Fun" playing again, but every time I do I get this overwhelming sense of dread. I could go into a long list of things that need to be fixed and changed but I'm also starting to get to the point where I dont even care enough about attempting to make it better anymore.

It's becoming clear the the "Direction" the game is going now is not the "Vision" that was presented years ago when it came out; and its certainly not what I imagine the game COULD be and SHOULD be.

Luckily for me and everyone else here, DDO is NOT the only game in town. If you take a few minutes and look at what else is out there you'll probably find something better. I recommend ArcheAge.:p

I've quit two MMOs in my life... I NEVER went back and posted on the old boards about how crappy the game was, especially not months after quitting...

I'm going to mark it down that this game must be (was?) exceptionally good for you to care so much about it that you're still posting on these forums after quitting months ago...

[Xionanx]

I've quit two MMOs in my life... I NEVER went back and posted on the old boards about how crappy the game was, especially not months after quitting...

I'm going to mark it down that this game must be (was?) exceptionally good for you to care so much about it that you're still posting on these forums after quitting months ago...

Exactly, and you would be right. I believe DDO has amazing potential, and could be an amazing game. Its just unfortuanant that the people controlling its direction are clearly lacking in vision and foresight.

I have quit playing more MMO's then I can remember (seriously, I start listing them and hours later I'm like "oh yeah, and I played that too") and I dont bother visiting their forums to remark on the current state of their game. They are what they are, and I dont expect them to be any different. DDO on the other hand can be so much better then it is, but someone somewhere is holding it back/down.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

WARNING - VERY LONG POST. If you don't intend to read it all, don't read at all.
Turbine moderators and every person in there is very welcome to read this.



I'm torn here. Ignoring the spelling/grammar points, it really is a well thought out and reasoned response. Most of their points don't apply to me or anyone I play with, but that's not exactly the point.

I mean.. This person is EXACTLY the target audience that turbine has been aiming at since the F2P model has been released, with the exception of the last couple of updates.

Think about it.... They've been playing for about two years. EVERYTHING that turbine has been adding to the game in that time has been setup at making the game easier(ie: more fun for their demographic) until the last few updates, when they've started doing a reversal aimed at making elites/epics/raids harder.
I get this.

Now, I'm not mad about it. On the contrary, I've been standing here screaming from my side of the fence "why in the **** are you dumbing down my game even more?" But I get why he'd feel betrayed and unhappy at the more recent direction the game is heading. His entire experience with Turbine until recently has pulled a 180.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Seriously, Turbine, fix the freaking forums. It is bad enough I need to log i everytime on my browser but it is logging out during writing




MissingMinds pointed out a temporary fix for this, and it's been keeping me logged in ever since.

Go to MyDDO. Logout. Log back in (to MyDDO). You'll stay logged in over here without the auto logout or needing to log in every time.

[Aashrym]

There's been so many last nail in the coffin threads that I'm surprised we can't buy coffin nails in the store. There's obviously and demand for them and some players must have run out by now. :D

[somenewnoob]

There's been so many last nail in the coffin threads that I'm surprised we can't buy coffin nails in the store. There's obviously and demand for them and some players must have run out by now. :D

Next update!

[TheSwamper]

I agree with the OP 100%. I +1'd you as well.

I've played on and off since launch, and have yet to get even one character to level 20. I'm flagged for shroud but everything I have ever read about it makes me not want to bother.

In fact, I can say with all honesty I've never done a raid in this game that I thought was even a little fun, they all seem to have illogical, nonsense mechanics.

Looks like it's time to quit (again) and see if there's actually anything fun I can solo in about six months.

[karsion]

Ok, will be trying to see how it works

[Thrudh]

Its like 2 weeks for me to finish my TR, and I won't play anymore.

This is my favorite part (see my sig)

[NancyD]

This is my favorite part (see my sig)

Mine too.

[Strider1963]

I've been playing for over a year now and atm only have 1 level 20 with a little greensteel gear, would obvioulsly like to get more decent gear, but its hard to find a group sometimes. Every where you look, there groups being advertised as "BYOH", "KNOW THE QUEST", "BE ABLE TO SOLO A TOWER", etc..... Now, how exactly are you supposed to know the quest if you've never run it before?? How are you supposed to heal yourself as a melee if you dont have access to Silver flame potions(and cant afford the packs you need for favor so you can get then?)
Seems like some of the power players are taking the fun out of the game for the newbies and less active people.
After all, the games supposed to be fun... so leveling a toon to level 20, then tr'ing, and running through dungeons to see how fast you can get up to level 20 again is fun???? Well, doesnt sound like fun to me.... Sounds like very boring grinding.....

[mournbladereigns]

OK, that's a beautiful wall of text, but what exactly are you complaining about?


This game is a lot more fun if you play with people that you know. They don't have to be good players, but you have to know where they shine and where they fall short.

There are people who really like juggling cooldowns of DPS abilities and drinking pots in a timely fashion. It is challenging and interesting to them. If you have one of these people in your party, he will be a more reliable boss tank than the ovwergeared guy who isn't paying attention.


There are people who really like managing costs and clickies and spells. They can keep crowd control up on the epic chronoscope endfight for 20 minutes without drinking a pot. You want these people to be on CC duty, not the palemaster with a DC of 45 who dies over and over to the dragon breaths.


Think of other important stuff in the game. Kiting. Setting up kill zones. Healing. In all these, skill and effort have a huge impact. Specially effort. You don't want the guy who gives up when unexpected stuff happens.


PUG raids led by good leaders will take all of these into account and find the right people for the right roles, or close enough, based on what each person likes/is good at. Bad PUGs will force people on roles they don't like or don't know based on class. How do you design a raid that is easy for the bad PUGs but not boring for the good ones?

How many good PUGs have you been in? How many bad ones?

tl;dr: The social aspect is a huge part of the game. Join a raiding guild/channel, get to know the crazy endgame players, your experience will be much better.

Soon you will start asking for harder raids, not easier ones :)


Are you kidding, the worst part of any MMO is other people. Unless you're a pileon with good social skills, or something.

Seriously. also, OP cool story bro or soemthing.

These things don't bother me, since I stay away from most epic's and end-game raiding besides like shroud DQ. We finished our normal shroud shortmanned with 10 people after 1 person was akf and a 2nd teleported out by accident,t or something. Did have 5 deaths when the blades hit, but harry also died, so was ok.

in summary, Haters gonna hate!

[Ungood]

I am going to have to Agree with the OP.

Now. make no mistake, I know Xand, in game, and he raids quite a bit, and even explained that his guild leader can solo elite Aramath quest, at 16th level. So his guild is not a guild of wimps or players lacking skill.

However. Shroud did not need to be messed, and I personally think that the suit that said it should be messed with, should be taken out back, and have the stupid slapped out of them.

Now, As for the direction of the raids in this game. Yes. It is stupid. It is moronic at what they have been doing. It seems like a constant desire alienate their casual player base, which begs the question, if they went F2P to attract new players, why are they now making raids harder to drive them away.

Shroud. Elite. Should be Doable by a team of skilled 18th level players. Not a team of super twinked triple TRed, Hard Core, play `23 hours a day players. but, players that are skilled with their toons, maybe have some decent gear, even a touch of Green Steel, and be able to do this quest.

So what happens. Players Power Level to 20th and then turn around and make a fuss that a 14th level raid (Reavers Fate) is too easy? Really. Really? No really, it's supposed to STOP being a "challenge" at 17th, you know, when you start to take exp negs for doing it, when at 20th you near nothing in exp for that raid.

If they are going to mess with things like this. then as Xand suggested,

1: Remove Bravery from Raids. All of them. They are not scaled right anymore, and should not count.

2: If you are going to make a 14th level raid a challenge for a group of 20's. make the raid count as 20th, and give appropriate loot for it.

All in all. I agree with what Xand has said.

It seems the direction of the game is moving away from social pugs, where we can just slap a group of random people together and have some fun, to some grind fest of all the other MMO's.

Bah.

[baronlager]

I've been playing for over a year now and atm only have 1 level 20 with a little greensteel gear, would obvioulsly like to get more decent gear, but its hard to find a group sometimes. Every where you look, there groups being advertised as "BYOH", "KNOW THE QUEST", "BE ABLE TO SOLO A TOWER", etc..... Now, how exactly are you supposed to know the quest if you've never run it before??

I think this is what makes guilds so important. Not sure what server you are on, but do some research on active guilds that are recruiting. Learn about their playstyle and patience :) and see if it is a fit for you. I pug sometimes, but often run with my guildies and learn quests/raids/new tactics as a group. IMHO makes the game more fun.

[GermanicusMaximus]

This is my favorite part (see my sig)

If you ever quit, I don't care about your loot. Can I have your sig? :-)

Really though, the path for a new player to advance through this game has become somewhat difficult. There is a noticable amount of power creep even since I joined, and now there is offsetting difficulty increases to any raid that a level 20 would even think of entering.

Its not easy for a newbie to make a meaningful contribution in these raids. He can still get the loot he needs, assuming he can get into a group and doesn't mind taking a backpack ride to the end chest. This is supposed to be entertainment, however, and riding in the backpack really isn't entertaining for most people.

Instead of taking the cheap route and tweaking existing lower level raids, Turbine needs to craft new high level content appropriate for fully geared toons. MA/LoB was a nice start, but there was no follow up to that in Update 12.

No new players means this game will eventually die.

[Arianrhod]

I don't know...seems like there have been people complaining about how hard elite settings were since mod 1 (I admit, I was one of them for a while). Back in the days of permanent curse & blindness, when starter gear was worse than level 1 quest loot instead of better, when there was hard and then there was "kobold hard", when there was no AH (oh, the weeks of camping the armor broker for that first precious mithral breastplate...), no scaling, no hirelings...gotta give Turbine a little credit for making some effort to make the new player experience less painful ;)

Unfortunately, the difficulty of finding groups that will accept players new to the content (or "undergeared" for it) is not unique to DDO - every MMO I've played has gone through cycles like that. New content comes out, the people with all the best toys run it enthusiastically for a few weeks, then no one runs it unless they "need" some drop from it. Players who weren't at the right level or equipped with the right gear when the content was new and everyone wanted to do it are SOL once they finally get there.

One of the things I like best about DDO is that it has difficulty settings, and scaling, and hirelings, so that tendency gets mitigated somewhat, and the people who missed out on the first rush might at least get a chance to check it out on some setting once they do get there. Might be harder with raids (no hirelings, for one thing), but even then there's a chance of seeing most of them eventually. Hardest part for the "latecomers" I suppose is getting the top gear, but then...is that really necessary to enjoy the game? How many games are out there where someone can come in 6 years after release and "catch up" with the people who've been playing since day one within a few months?

[Failedlegend]

There's been so many last nail in the coffin threads that I'm surprised we can't buy coffin nails in the store. There's obviously and demand for them and some players must have run out by now. :D

They should put that in the next update

New Named Heavy Repeater "The Coffin Nailgun"

1d8 (Instead of 1d10) 18-20/x3

Large Clip: Reloading takes 10% longer but holds 8 shots per reload

DooooMMM!!!11???!!: This weapon has a moderate chance to inflict Crushing Despair on target

Rusty Nails: Has a small chance to inflict poison on fleshies also does an extra 2d6 damage to constructs

[LucidLTS]

yah. yer new. lets take a little stroll, shall we? xandariant. look him up in my.ddo. i'll wait while you go check.

back already? ok, lets start, shall we? he has a stable full of 20s loaded with green steel, epic gear, and raid gear galore. every toon has gear to drool over. even his least geared 20th level toon has one true epic item. so no stranger to epics and raids

next turn your attention to the left side, under his player icon. oh look, he's in Phoenix Knights. hmmm. 82nd level guild. lets take a look at the guild leaderboard on my.ddo, shall we? oh look, the only guilds higher level on his server are Over Raided (100) and Righteous Ire (88).

if THIS person says "raids are ridiculous" i'm inclined to believe him.

l2p indeed. do some research before you shoot yourself in the foot next time

Lol, awesome! I will *so* remember this whenever I'm tempted to make a snide remark on the forum. +1 for the pointed reminder to stay courteous.

[sacredguyver]

They should put that in the next update

New Named Heavy Repeater "The Coffin Nailgun"

1d8 (Instead of 1d10) 18-20/x3

Large Clip: Reloading takes 10% longer but holds 8 shots per reload

DooooMMM!!!11???!!: This weapon has a moderate chance to inflict Crushing Despair on target

Rusty Nails: Has a small chance to inflict poison on fleshies also does an extra 2d6 damage to constructs

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8277/89965d1309555038somebod.jpg

[Zuka]

PUG raids led by good leaders will take all of these into account and find the right people for the right roles, or close enough, based on what each person likes/is good at. Bad PUGs will force people on roles they don't like or don't know based on class. How do you design a raid that is easy for the bad PUGs but not boring for the good ones?

How many good PUGs have you been in? How many bad ones?

tl;dr: The social aspect is a huge part of the game. Join a raiding guild/channel, get to know the crazy endgame players, your experience will be much better.

Soon you will start asking for harder raids, not easier ones :)

I could not possibly agree more, I lead loads of groups on Sarlona through things, we apply different tactics in different situations and only start to really drop off in success when people are getting set in their ways and not willing to adapt.

I can entirely understand what it's like to be a low-geared player, there was a loooooong time that I was a poorly equipped player, and to this day I only have one guy who is really at all epic or late game geared, with still only T2 greensteel boots and no GS weapons (to be fair he's a monk), but I get through raids to this day, very well. I haven't tried some of the newest updates to the raids, haven't seen the blades recently in the shroud, but I refuse to give up on them. I will continue to adapt my tactics and conquer them, it makes me a better player and it makes my game a more solid challenge.
I do agree that several updates to raid content are sort of stupid, I don't think the solution to end game content in what, like u9 or 10 (when they gave everyone more HP and fort.) were a very good way to up the challenge, making the boss take longer to kill doesn't make the raid more difficult. I mean, Sully for example, is a Bearded devil, do you know how many spells and spell likes they get? Horoth, he's a pitfiend, only one ability needs mentioning for me to be glad of certain oversights, 25D6 Meteor swarm, AT WILL.
I'm gonna be totally honest, I've played P&P for many years, and just going against a pit fiend and a bearded devil side by side (tod) or a great wyrm red dragon (Evon6), these are dreams of mine, these are things few true P&P players really do, we get to raid the bowels of hell, it SHOULD kill us, and I think that's the case with a lot of the end game content. We're performing godly feats, survival is going to be a combination of insane luck and calculated skill.

We can either adapt or perish, it's digital selection at it's finest, lol.

[BlackSteel]

I get the feeling the OP hasnt played alot of MMO's. His complaint is true in about all of them. Veterans, who are geared out, have a significant advantage in new content or when the level cap is increased over new players.

New characters do have it rougher in endgame content due to having less hours put in farming gear. (altho this is debatable, b/c there have been alot of changes to the game, and it used to be significantly harder, preDA, exp loss on death, no dungeon scaling, etc.) Altho you can look at this positively too. With every update, and the new gear, all those old vets are redoing their gear, and what they have to grind. Essentially the new player gets to skip alot of what the vet has grinded out.

Remember when the titan belt was in most characters dream equipment set up? How many new characters even step foot in that raid? Yes a TR with it might have a small advantage for a few levels now, but thats a significant amount of time and completions that a new character will never see or even think about attempting.

[xandariant]

Looking through the drama, he is kinda right.

If you are a casual player NOT in a decent guild, raids are becoming more and more off limits. That is a shame. Even a very important raid like Shroud is becoming very hard for those.

Turbine went over the top to confirm the opinion of a minority of elite forum visitors, who do have the biggest vote somehow. This is not a personal attack on anyone who feels it this way. It's just how it is. People lose their ability to see through a beginners eyes, lost all grip on that part, forgot how it was. Turbine seems to lose that view as well.
After all that whining on my post and ppl who give me advices like I'm ******** and can't think like how to pass plat with a friend or 2nd account (I use that), I'm glad someone sees what I meant, even it that is only 1 person. Thank you.

Warning: Very short post. 2 years you call yourself and oldtimer?
LOL, yes, I'm not that much old timer, but guess what i had a lot of play time in that 2 years and I don't even care if you all just think this post is stupid. You just can't see that game is dying cause Turbine listens to all "make it harder" screamers. As some time ago Turbine was proud with how many ppl came to see the game i see them running away with those changes.
I still hope some ppl in there will see what is happing, cause this was a great game and still have potential.


I've quit two MMOs in my life... I NEVER went back and posted on the old boards about how crappy the game was, especially not months after quitting...

I'm going to mark it down that this game must be (was?) exceptionally good for you to care so much about it that you're still posting on these forums after quitting months ago...
Yes it was and kinda is great. Just no more fun with changes and i lost respect too many time for Turbine ppl starting from not acting to account abductions, ending to not listeding what ppl write on forum (like that shared plat bank after at least 2 years of writing in many posts, not only that BTA bags, not working items don't still work like marksmanship in braces etc).


Cliff notes: DOOOOOOOOOOOOOM:p
How i knew some ppl will just wrote that. The biggest proof of not-understading non-relevant posting in name of what? writing one more post or just trying ppl not to read it cause this is doooom, and that too, and best is to not even read a post that is marked as one right.
For me, purely personally ppl who wrote that have way too little to give for others to be able to make a constructive post or are just dumb? I don't care anymore. Just LOL on you for posting. Great work.


They should put that in the next update
New Named Heavy Repeater "The Coffin Nailgun"
1d8 (Instead of 1d10) 18-20/x3
Large Clip: Reloading takes 10% longer but holds 8 shots per reload
DooooMMM!!!11???!!: This weapon has a moderate chance to inflict Crushing Despair on target
Rusty Nails: Has a small chance to inflict poison on fleshies also does an extra 2d6 damage to constructs
Aside from you making fun of me, i like the idea, I would love to see it!

[Aashrym]

They should put that in the next update

New Named Heavy Repeater "The Coffin Nailgun"

1d8 (Instead of 1d10) 18-20/x3

Large Clip: Reloading takes 10% longer but holds 8 shots per reload

DooooMMM!!!11???!!: This weapon has a moderate chance to inflict Crushing Despair on target

Rusty Nails: Has a small chance to inflict poison on fleshies also does an extra 2d6 damage to constructs

With coffin nails in the name I would prefer greater undead bane on it. ;)

[Kmnh]

Isn't this the same thread?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349908

Why did you start a new one? Did the people with different opinions scare you away?

[Kaytis]

Why did you start a new one? Did the people with different opinions scare you away?

It looks like a lot of people share his opinion in the other thread. I do too. Making your signature raid too hard to complete at level, or even at 3 levels over, is suicidal.

[Neckcracker]

u12 has seriously destroyed the fun out of this game. Can the developers explain to me why they have changed the aggro mechanics on this game???? what kind of LOGIC do you guys have??? Let me explain a bit, after u12 they have changed the aggro system where you have to at least swing or poke your enemy so u an target him.??? WHICH IS SO STUPID. I have a caster and it ruins the whole sense of being a caster.. Also I agree with this thread . I wanna say more but it gets me worked up that I signed up for VIP for this crappy update. I worked my ass off on my guild then be spoiled because of updates that is so senseless.. I mean whats the point of changing that mechanics was anyone complaining???? PLEASE TELL ME THE COMMON SENSE OF THIS UPDATE

WHY DO U HAVE TO SWING OR POKE YOUR OPPONENT BEFORE YOU CAN CAST SPELLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

WHATS THE SENSE OF THREAT ITEMS IF you do this!!?? YOUR LOSING PLAYERS!!!


NOW I JUST SIGNED OFF VIP because of this update AND I WILL NEVER RENEW MY CC on my account !!! im paying for 3 accounts ALL turned off..

IF YOU GUYS WANT MY BUSINESS BETTER FIX IT OR EXPLAIN TO ME THE LOGIC WHY THE MECHANICS HAVE CHANGED. no one was complaining with the last mechanics SO WHY CHANGE IT????? logically thinking so whats the sense of threat items if your gonna be doing that!??????

I WOULD ACCEPT IF THE CHANGES ON THIS GAME WAS FOR THE BETTER NOT FOR THE WORST OR AT LEAST I WOULD ACCEPT THE CHANGE IF IT LOGICAL!!!!!!!

turbine head developers please listen to your customers because the game is turning for the worst!!!!!!!!!! and you are losing ppl that actually spend money because of this stupidity and we are not afraid to to tell everyone that the turbine we onced loved became as sucky as today.

THE ONLY THING THAT YOU HAVE AS AN ADVANTAGE IS YOU HAVE THE DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS FRANCHISE but after what you guys are doing How can you compete with so many BETTER game companies out there???

All i ask is change it for the better not for the worst!

[arjiwan]

This thread (and also most of the threads) have become a mess. People just want to give their opinions but not wanting to even try to read or understand others. My post, believe me, will be buried with all those not-funny non-constructive posts that you will see here.


Looking through the drama, he is kinda right.

If you are a casual player NOT in a decent guild, raids are becoming more and more off limits. That is a shame. Even a very important raid like Shroud is becoming very hard for those.

Turbine went over the top to confirm the opinion of a minority of elite forum visitors, who do have the biggest vote somehow. This is not a personal attack on anyone who feels it this way. It's just how it is. People lose their ability to see through a beginners eyes, lost all grip on that part, forgot how it was. Turbine seems to lose that view as well.

I will echo this again. This is what I feel. There are a lot of players who are not in a high level guilds, or really casuals. Others have worked so hard and epic ready, but still casual players. You can't just force them to run a level 12 Elite Demon queen quest.

[Drekisen]

This is not a shut up and deal with it reply at all, because it's good the community expresses their opinions and hopefully things will be improved upon this consensus, but seriously the update is all of what 2 days old.

It seems like everyone's favorite activities were taken off of auto-pilot mode and there is actually the requirement to have to think and PLAY our way through what we used to just basically STEAL from.

I wanna live, that needs stimulation........one of the best forms of stimulation is changing things up some. Don't worry, in a few weeks you will all have the new strategy down, be bored, and complaining how lame this game is again because there is no challenge.

[Lord_Thanatos]

I wanna live, that needs stimulation........one of the best forms of stimulation is changing things up some. Don't worry, in a few weeks you will all have the new strategy down, be bored, and complaining how lame this game is again because there is no challenge.

Yes because it was all the newer players that have been constantly whining and complaining about having no challenge and that all content should be catered to them.

Yup.

PS: I am sure all the newer players are also the ones saying that epics are easy and should be made even harder still.

[sacredguyver]

u12 has seriously destroyed the fun out of this game. Can the developers explain to me why they have changed the aggro mechanics on this game???? what kind of LOGIC do you guys have??? Let me explain a bit, after u12 they have changed the aggro system where you have to at least swing or poke your enemy so u an target him.??? WHICH IS SO STUPID. I have a caster and it ruins the whole sense of being a caster.. Also I agree with this thread . I wanna say more but it gets me worked up that I signed up for VIP for this crappy update. I worked my ass off on my guild then be spoiled because of updates that is so senseless.. I mean whats the point of changing that mechanics was anyone complaining???? PLEASE TELL ME THE COMMON SENSE OF THIS UPDATE

WHY DO U HAVE TO SWING OR POKE YOUR OPPONENT BEFORE YOU CAN CAST SPELLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!

WHATS THE SENSE OF THREAT ITEMS IF you do this!!?? YOUR LOSING PLAYERS!!!


NOW I JUST SIGNED OFF VIP because of this update AND I WILL NEVER RENEW MY CC on my account !!! im paying for 3 accounts ALL turned off..

IF YOU GUYS WANT MY BUSINESS BETTER FIX IT OR EXPLAIN TO ME THE LOGIC WHY THE MECHANICS HAVE CHANGED. no one was complaining with the last mechanics SO WHY CHANGE IT????? logically thinking so whats the sense of threat items if your gonna be doing that!??????

I WOULD ACCEPT IF THE CHANGES ON THIS GAME WAS FOR THE BETTER NOT FOR THE WORST OR AT LEAST I WOULD ACCEPT THE CHANGE IF IT LOGICAL!!!!!!!

turbine head developers please listen to your customers because the game is turning for the worst!!!!!!!!!! and you are losing ppl that actually spend money because of this stupidity and we are not afraid to to tell everyone that the turbine we onced loved became as sucky as today.

THE ONLY THING THAT YOU HAVE AS AN ADVANTAGE IS YOU HAVE THE DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS FRANCHISE but after what you guys are doing How can you compete with so many BETTER game companies out there???

All i ask is change it for the better not for the worst!
Many of the mobs that you see standing around and won't aggro on you unless they're "poked" are bugged. They are supposed to be invisible unless you have a high Spot score, and even then they are supposed to show up in a black shadowy outline. This is a known bug and will (hopefully) be fixed in the upcoming patch.

[Natashaelle]

Gosh. I'm a new player and didn't realize I was supposed to hate everything this much. :)

^^ THIS. (and +1 btw)

---

DDO *does* have the basic problem that all versions of D&D have, which is that the more content is released, the more complex the game becomes -- which can be a serious turn-off for many people...

In PnP, these sorts of people generally either decide to play a simplified version of D&D, with severe limits on such things as how far people can multiclass, level cap, which character classes are available, spellcasting, and so on ... or they just turn to a more "simple" game with a more integrated game system (notwithstanding that comparative simplicity or complexity in game systems is an extremely subjective quality :p).

...

The thing is, with DDO there's far less of wiggle room for players to take this kind of control over their gaming, and whatever the Turbine devs offer is what we have to play with.

Personally, I can handle a basic degree of complexity up to a level cap of about 40-50, although several dozen character classes and an undigestibly sprawling mass of detail work is certainly not desirable from my own point of view ; and it's understandable that ever-increasing complexity is not going to be everybody's cup of tea.

[Crystalizer]

^^ THIS. (and +1 btw)

---

DDO *does* have the basic problem that all versions of D&D have, which is that the more content is released, the more complex the game becomes -- which can be a serious turn-off for many people...

In PnP, these sorts of people generally either decide to play a simplified version of D&D, with severe limits on such things as how far people can multiclass, level cap, which character classes are available, spellcasting, and so on ... or they just turn to a more "simple" game with a more integrated game system (notwithstanding that comparative simplicity or complexity in game systems is an extremely subjective quality :p).

...

The thing is, with DDO there's far less of wiggle room for players to take this kind of control over their gaming, and whatever the Turbine devs offer is what we have to play with.

Personally, I can handle a basic degree of complexity up to a level cap of about 40-50, although several dozen character classes and an undigestibly sprawling mass of detail work is certainly not desirable from my own point of view ; and it's understandable that ever-increasing complexity is not going to be everybody's cup of tea.

i clap my hands when complexity is controlled, unfortunately in the case of ddo many game mechanisms are broken by updates. from my own point of view ddo is not becoming more complex but more simple. from the very early days ddo is slowly converging to some standard hack'n'slash gameplay. variety of builds has strongly decreased in game, new content is sometimes well done but quite often a way more simple than before. breaking game mechanisms to force players to TR their builds and then "refresh" old content is just a way to drive players to boredom. devs spend too much time on nerfing stuff : when you think about the amount of time you need to build a character and gear it, i regularly have the feeling of being a hamster running crazy in a flashy wheel.

[oldkraft]

Since the diversity of 'good endgame' 18-20 named items is so large compared to a few years ago, their accesability must also be less. Thats balance ....

[xandariant]

I forgot few points, sorry i wrote a lot anyway, but read this:

Get to know ppl
For a person like me having fun means getting to know ppl, playing with them etc. So why scaling difficulty you force pro players to make more static groups? It kinda kills the game if you didn't notice. I see more LFMs lately saying "I need a guide" and even more like "only strong players", "have over 400hp", "have DC 42+", "be awesome" and finally the ones that i just love "know me". In other words ppl are closing their wide selection of ppl/toons they want to play with. If someone will say this doesn't affect how fresh, new to the game ppl fell - GUESS AGAIN!

In time old timer get a break, or don't want to play anymore, maybe see something that is more fun to do. You loose ppl, and fresh blood will just never have chances to be that good as old timers when ppl expects them to be. In the end its LOOSE IT ALL attitude.
I'm kinda disappointed in Turbine policy. Not that much in the ppl that are forced to make parties like this, cause noone likes to wipe cause 2 or 3 ppl don't know that to do, but still with current situation its just "be A+ so we won't wipe". While I can live with that (most of the time), a lot of ppl are tired with it and I understand them.

So game gives you 3 options:
- join very good guild (usually very hard without being strong)
- have friends who will help you a lot with getting strong
- have problems with joining any party hosted by longterm players.

Endless grind
In here i want to price Turbine. It is one point where I really see you working.
Bravery bonus and giving a lot more xp in quests is just great. I really love it. It made me again run almost all quests not only do a grind on selected few worth of running. This was a great improvement and make me very happy on a toon that I'm finishing.
Still you don't want to hear about making epics not grindable... Why? Cause they are called epic? When will devs finally see that more grind does't mean more fun?
I see really great items in non-epics quests and way easier to obtain than my Demonscale Armor or Staff of Arcane power that i grinded forever for parts. I finally got border in and I will probably never get my Thornlord shard for my ranger build and Torc shard, yes that sucks cause i did over 80 epic DQs, the same with my Sirroco seal, just doesn't drop when I'm in party. Those new almost epic items drop a lot on elites like House C elites - that is great, yet epics suck. Yet for epics.... Welcome to the grind world. Yet I will sign out now.

The other thing you did great against heavy grinders (yes, i don't like that and I'm not proud i grinded a lot) was giving sands scrolls trade. That is a great move even if made ppl loose worth in 30mpp scrolls, epic sands got just a step closer to being fun. Only a little step but still.
I sure hope to see shard/seal trade across all epic items, but that is just my hopes.

Also another endless grind are epic tokens.
There is a quite large post in Lama forum about lessing cost of augument crystals. Those are just o fun at all. Getting 30 Epic Dungeon Tokens just to make my weapon bypass Good dmg? Really? Really?
Not for me. I can live with using another weapons, crafted or something or just asking artificer (since last update). I prefer to get 20 tokens to get Heart for TR. Yes getting 20 for that seems to be fair.
If I would to upgrade every single epic item that i have (probably around 20 not counting event items) I would have to farm whole months. It's just not worth it. Yet there is not a single Turbine answer in that post so i get that just goes to a wide space.

20th completions
The over all idea was not bad. Unfortunately none listened to threads to make that list:
a) separate for epic and non-epic completions - a shame that you don't want to reward ppl running epic raids.
b) make list stuffed with ALL items not a selection of items. I see many disappointed ppl they don't get what they want on 20th completion and after doing 20, you just make them run 40, and more. I know the best that is not funny when i have 45 completions only on my arcane and i never saw litany on my 20th/40th completion list and had to take whatever since i got staff earlier. Just as Endless grind says - its not fun.

---=== up to this point added below main post for new readers ===---


Isn't this the same thread?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=349908

Why did you start a new one? Did the people with different opinions scare you away?
Well... If you would did your homework, which you didn't you would see that both posts were made at the same time. So your question is rather out of place since it's hard to get ppl not agree with you when you post on 2 forums.

Yes, I did it on purpose to let all and only those old timers stacking on lama forum about some thoughts.
Thanks to moderator both topics are now one so each of group can see all posts.

Sadly I see that is all you wrote. Better posting next time.

BTW
Some ppl don't agree with the Abbot/DQ separate lag cause bad code, but I work as Q&A for some time and I can tell just by comparing that there is a code in instances of that raid that makes those lag spikes. You want to be sure, after lag wipe just ask ppl in guild if they had lag-monster with them few min ago. Most time they will say, "No!".

[sirgog]

95% of the game's content has at least one difficulty setting that casual players can breeze through. This is a good thing. The exceptions are a couple of raids that have tough combat encounters, quests with nasty puzzles, and a couple of others.

OTOH, only maybe 20% of the game's content has any difficulty setting designed for 'semi-powergamers' and only maybe 5% caters at all to the more full-on powergamers. We finally get more of this, and there's intense complaining?

Content like Vale of Twilight Slayer, or Normal difficulty Sorrowdusk Island isn't designed for players like me. I think it's a good thing it exists, however. I'd ask that the people who post U11 Elite VOD isn't designed for have the same response - try it a couple of times, decide it isn't their idea of fun, and acknowledge that it's for a different type of player to them that does deserve content too.

[SilkofDrasnia]

95% of the game's content has at least one difficulty setting that casual players can breeze through. This is a good thing. The exceptions are a couple of raids that have tough combat encounters, quests with nasty puzzles, and a couple of others.

OTOH, only maybe 20% of the game's content has any difficulty setting designed for 'semi-powergamers' and only maybe 5% caters at all to the more full-on powergamers. We finally get more of this, and there's intense complaining?

Content like Vale of Twilight Slayer, or Normal difficulty Sorrowdusk Island isn't designed for players like me. I think it's a good thing it exists, however. I'd ask that the people who post U11 Elite VOD isn't designed for have the same response - try it a couple of times, decide it isn't their idea of fun, and acknowledge that it's for a different type of player to them that does deserve content too.

i agree this is room for all but this has to go both ways and i think many feel that the norm difficulty is being played with to appease that latter % percent group your mentioning when this group by they're very own words shouldn't care at all if norm is easier as its not content focused for that type of player

[xandariant]

95% of the game's content has at least one difficulty setting that casual players can breeze through. This is a good thing. The exceptions are a couple of raids that have tough combat encounters, quests with nasty puzzles, and a couple of others.

OTOH, only maybe 20% of the game's content has any difficulty setting designed for 'semi-powergamers' and only maybe 5% caters at all to the more full-on powergamers. We finally get more of this, and there's intense complaining?

Content like Vale of Twilight Slayer, or Normal difficulty Sorrowdusk Island isn't designed for players like me. I think it's a good thing it exists, however. I'd ask that the people who post U11 Elite VOD isn't designed for have the same response - try it a couple of times, decide it isn't their idea of fun, and acknowledge that it's for a different type of player to them that does deserve content too.
After reading your post i have to admit I respect you. Instead of screaming DOOM in forum you wrote the most important part that was in there. "Content like Vale of Twilight Slayer, or Normal difficulty Sorrowdusk Island isn't designed for players like me." - that is the heart of the problem. You just admitted yourself that you are a hardcore player, and I don't think that was a secret.

You see even after playing a lot I still think of myself as a casual player. I want to go and have fun. Having fun is not wipe few times, deal with rage quitters and wait constantly to fill party with ppl we need cause no one wants to do the raid.
On my first build I had 230hp and ppl didn't want me in shroud, so i made my own party filled it with no problem and made my 1st shroud, learning it at the same time asking ppl what to do - it was s great experience but it's impossible anymore to new ppl with weak not geared toons to do things like that.

Just tell me...
How much time do you spend to play with noobs and let them learn the raid. How many times you speak/write what is to be done in next part of the raid. How many learning Abbots are you making a week. Just tell me how much do you care for new ppl in this game since you are so experienced player.

How the game works...
After tons of posts when i wrote "make normal for casual ppl to have fun with the content", Turbine scalled everytinhg up. Many wipes in normals are always there in Shroud now, Abbot - lika always how long i can remember, Reavers Fate at lvl - what a joke, no longer doable, DQ at lvl hardly ever possible, and on epic with that lag after upgrading hp/dmg almost undoable with a good, geared party. At leas VoN is some fun.

PPL are just leaving and they wont come back
I really think a lot of ppl just goes off and wont come back cause the game is not for them. It is for power gamers and hardcore old timers now. No more space for casual non failing having fun normal runs for ppl who want to take joy from playing.
Over time those ppl will want to have challenges, but all the time. Everyone wants to relax in non-failing Shroud on normal for large mats, form time to time. But not anymore.
In the end that will make game loose fresh blood and it will go into Turbine finances.

[Ungood]

On my first build I had 230hp and ppl didn't want me in shroud, so i made my own party filled it with no problem and made my 1st shroud, learning it at the same time asking ppl what to do - it was s great experience but it's impossible anymore to new ppl with weak not geared toons to do things like that.

I have heard some people say that a game needs to change or it becomes stagnant and if a game becomes stagnant it dies.

I would say, content does not create stagnation, it is player base. If game has enough players, and it can survive on what is has, then the game should focus on that player base.

However, for a game to thrive, it needs to grow, both in content and player base. And I feel that DDO is going in the wrong direction with their changes. Very few people have the patience and ability to teach raids to other people while struggling to get the raid done in the first place.

And making content like that, is going to hurt their new player base. When I first started I loved that I could put up an LFM and have it full within 10 min, and be questing for the day. I would put up shroud raid and I could not click Accept fast enough to get a move on to doing the raid. It was just so fun and easy going. This enjoyable social aspect made meeting new people, made getting that one old hand and those few new players mixed into a Raid Bag, just fun.

But as the difficulty scales up, so too does the exclusivity. And that, is no fun.

[dunklezhan]

PPL are just leaving and they wont come back
I really think a lot of ppl just goes off and wont come back cause the game is not for them. It is for power gamers and hardcore old timers now. No more space for casual non failing having fun normal runs for ppl who want to take joy from playing.
Over time those ppl will want to have challenges, but all the time. Everyone wants to relax in non-failing Shroud on normal for large mats, form time to time. But not anymore.
In the end that will make game loose fresh blood and it will go into Turbine finances.

OK just hang on a sec there.

I'm a casual player. I point blank refuse to grind gear, so I have lots of the named items from the more recent packs but none of them have been 'unlocked' or upgraded because I simply don't grind for the necessary drops to do it. Nevertheless, I have a lot of the gear - because its bound to account not character, so each character that runs through those quests might get an item I don't have yet - the aquisition method for that sort of gear is solidly aimed at the casual player. I know this because I have more of it than I can reasonably keep in my shared bank - most of it useless for the builds I have, but the point is other than running the quests in my normal levelling process, I have ended up with a shedload of the items. I have a few bits of GS on two characters (one has a HP cloak and smoke goggles, the other has a couple of GS heavy repeaters he's not even using because I made them for his next life) simply because our guild has Shroud runs on a tuesday/friday and has had since last christmas whereas before then was a lot more ad hoc.

The items I've got only add a little to my surivivability, they don't in any way add to my offensive output. But they happened as part of normal running of shroud over a period of time - just like all my other GS in the future will be. I'm not going to set out to make stuff. I just run shroud until I have a boatload of ingredients, then decide what I want to make and start trying to fill remaining ingredient gaps.

That's more than a brand new player has, but it hasnt' been hard to acquire any of it - its just taken a long time, during which I have had no problems getting into groups/raids or just playing generally.

But I haven't run LOB/MA or even TOD yet (haven't got round to the first two, refuse to grind those stupid boots for ToD, and frankly find Amrath way too difficult anyway). I've certainly not run a single raid except VON on any difficulty except normal (and we wiped on the hard VoN run). I'm a terrible soloer and there's a lot of content I just can't do without a group even if its easily soloable by players like sirgog and shade.

I have been playing for 2 years which certainly doesn't make me an 'old timer' when considered against the total life of the game. I've sunk hundreds of pounds into the game, both in subs and TP purchases. I still don't know half the content. I hate certain content (so I simply don't play it unless there's someone offering to let me pike at the door).

Yeah, I'm pretty much the definition of casual. I make stupid mistakes, and fail to pay attention and die way more than I should.

But I have no problem finding groups, getting into groups or having fun. My guild either like me or tolerate me (or hate me and are good at hiding it). And by the way, not wiping isn't in any way a measure of fun. Some of the funniest, funnest runs I've had have been utter failures. What you mean is - wiping then having to form another group because half the group rage quits is not fun. That's true (not to mention laughable, I always have a giggle when people do this, its just so immature), but I promise that affects 'old timers' and 'hardcore' just as much as the next person.

I am still new when it comes to gear, I have no TR characters, my highest favour toon is at about 1900 after two years playing him. I've never seen a torc, or a chattering ring, I've never done Abbot and I seem to have a knack for picking nonfavourable PrEs and builds because I still believe if I just learn to play I'll be able to pull them off (I am making slow progress in learning to play...), not to mention because I won't grind any gear I do have is almost always in the 'wrong' slot (by which I mean 'non optimal' which amounts to the same thing to the hardcore folk).

And I finished a Shroud normal last night.

So I dispute, very strongly, the idea that the game is only for hardcore and old timers.

[Chimeran]

yah. yer new. lets take a little stroll, shall we? xandariant. look him up in my.ddo. i'll wait while you go check.

back already? ok, lets start, shall we? he has a stable full of 20s loaded with green steel, epic gear, and raid gear galore. every toon has gear to drool over. even his least geared 20th level toon has one true epic item. so no stranger to epics and raids

next turn your attention to the left side, under his player icon. oh look, he's in Phoenix Knights. hmmm. 82nd level guild. lets take a look at the guild leaderboard on my.ddo, shall we? oh look, the only guilds higher level on his server are Over Raided (100) and Righteous Ire (88).

if THIS person says "raids are ridiculous" i'm inclined to believe him.

l2p indeed. do some research before you shoot yourself in the foot next time

Well said +1 rep.
I also agree with OP and feel the same way.

[dunklezhan]

yah. yer new. lets take a little stroll, shall we? xandariant. look him up in my.ddo. i'll wait while you go check.

back already? ok, lets start, shall we? he has a stable full of 20s loaded with green steel, epic gear, and raid gear galore. every toon has gear to drool over. even his least geared 20th level toon has one true epic item. so no stranger to epics and raids

next turn your attention to the left side, under his player icon. oh look, he's in Phoenix Knights. hmmm. 82nd level guild. lets take a look at the guild leaderboard on my.ddo, shall we? oh look, the only guilds higher level on his server are Over Raided (100) and Righteous Ire (88).

if THIS person says "raids are ridiculous" i'm inclined to believe him.

l2p indeed. do some research before you shoot yourself in the foot next time

He might be right about certain content, especially on the harder difficulties. But generally speaking, when saying the game is closed to new and casual players, I beleive he couldn't be further from the truth. Though unguilded new players I agree are going to have a tough time.... just like they would in any MMO if they want to do well.

[Chaos000]

I think we can all agree that adding elements to the game that leads to the exclusion of an average player is a bad thing.

- otherwise people really wouldn't have any issues with the following: damage meters, hp/sp count, ability to check someone's gear, ability to see how much each person is or is-not contributing to guild rep... etc.

Scaling content to account for min-max characters with exceptional gear hurts the average player because it is a disincentive to bringing along anyone without the gear necessary to contribute. The non-intentional piker is excluded until such time they invest the time and energy to grind for basic gear, then grind for moderate gear, then grind for better gear.

Now increase the probability of a party wipe raid/quest failure that adds a frustration level to time spent grinding that had resulted in nothing. I don't know about you but when I spend time on a raid, I joined with the expectation of looting a chest at the end and never bother joining a group that in all likelihoods are likely to fail. Why? because my game time is limited and wasting time is not on my agenda.

I don't fault the devs for scaling the content. I would however prefer that they left the raids alone on normal (for continual pug raids throughout the day), scaled up on hard (bosses cast different spells, blades follow you around etc.), then make elite increasingly hard (bosses have heavy fort, blades hit harder etc.)

[zwiebelring]

Dude . . . stuff got easier in U12 except for Shroud. Think about it and hold the D0000000M!!!!
But only Shroud is that matters. Since it is the jump up to endgame content.

[Schmoe]

http://www.accelerator3359.com/Wrestling/pictures/jarrett6.jpg

[Daggertooth]

All I can say is wow. Iv'e played every day for 6 years never gotten bored, always a great time. Never made a green steel item, I simply didn't enjoy the shroud enough to run it to make anything and having played 2 years before the shroud even came out I didnt really think I needed any of it. I run the raids -sometimes- yeah its a bit laggy so I only do it occasionally, surely I don't feel I need any of the stuff to fit in... sure maybe a couple things for caster DC, but yeah you have to work for that. In the last couple years Ive seen nothing but everyone being extremely nice, every raid I've joined all the top end guilds have always welcomed new players... As for myself I run epics daily I take the first 5 people to hit the lfm. In all seriousness just truly surprised to hear such a rant from anyone.

All I can say is sorry you've had such a bad experience. The only thing I could possibly recommend is maybe disattaching yourself from your expectations. There's plenty of challenges to be had throughout the entire game and its all relative. If your character isn't decked out to beat the new Epic raids there's no reason why you can't work on trying to find some other players in a similar boat to try normal. My first character back when the game launched took 3 months to reach the cap, then level 10. I was in no rush, I made the decision that my first character was going to be a fighter, and I also decided not to multiclass anything until I capped everything pure. I capped every single class to cap before even thinking about multiclassing. Compare that with what most new players do today... they come to the forum and ask for 'build advice' and for someone to give them a premade character. They don't want to discover anything....if I started the game today I could probably spend 6 months alone just exploring and discovering the first 6 or 7 levels.

All I can say is if anyone is not having a good time, I think its time you look to yourself for the reason, stop blaming the developers who have done an OUTSTANDING job in creating a winning formula for a game that no other multiplayer game comes anywhere close to.

[herzkos]

Quote snipped for brevity.

I am going to have to Agree with the OP.

/snip
However. Shroud did not need to be messed, and I personally think that the suit that said it should be messed with, should be taken out back, and have the stupid slapped out of them.

Now, As for the direction of the raids in this game. Yes. It is stupid. It is moronic at what they have been doing. It seems like a constant desire alienate their casual player base, which begs the question, if they went F2P to attract new players, why are they now making raids harder to drive them away.

/snip



^This: but that is one whole lot of slapping. Perhaps it would be better to hire a warforge(or a team of them) and just check back every couple of hours to see if the suit is close to wisdom.

[xandariant]

I think we can all agree that adding elements to the game that leads to the exclusion of an average player is a bad thing.

- otherwise people really wouldn't have any issues with the following: damage meters, hp/sp count, ability to check someone's gear, ability to see how much each person is or is-not contributing to guild rep... etc.

Scaling content to account for min-max characters with exceptional gear hurts the average player because it is a disincentive to bringing along anyone without the gear necessary to contribute. The non-intentional piker is excluded until such time they invest the time and energy to grind for basic gear, then grind for moderate gear, then grind for better gear.

Now increase the probability of a party wipe raid/quest failure that adds a frustration level to time spent grinding that had resulted in nothing. I don't know about you but when I spend time on a raid, I joined with the expectation of looting a chest at the end and never bother joining a group that in all likelihoods are likely to fail. Why? because my game time is limited and wasting time is not on my agenda.
/agreed.
It's nice to see more ppl tho think and write constructive posts, maybe this forum is not as much doom, as i thought it is.
Back to the mater, I want to play and have fun, just like you, not be overscaled, overgrinded the one who has no live aside of DDO. This game was designed for grind and still is, it hurts and combined with scaling up everything is just as you said.

EXCEPT FOR ONE:

(...) they invest the time and energy to grind for basic gear, then grind for moderate gear, then grind for better gear.
Devs forgot that if you don't have top gear you wont be able to do U11 and U12 best content. They wont give you a chance? Someone ask why?
Let me show you:
Epic DQ is almost must be best DPS and lots of HP - hard to go without great get or very high crafting, not to mention you will be for sure examined in myDDO.

But wait there is more. Alchamical T3 can only be done after tuning epics? LOL! Really I done even want to try epic since normal is hard as hell. Welcome to elite will have it all.

But wait (2) there is also Abbot, that has reall neat loot and now even upgraded and those upgrades looks nice - I really like them like most of you. BUT? you can upgrade if you manage to run it on elite where abbot has evasion, high saves, and saves against disintegration... Yes, really completing it means you are elite so again Welcome to elite will have it all.
Don't forget that sick drop rate and 20th completion list. Drop rate... elites drop like 1d2 item and usually very weak ones. 20th completion has so many items that I farmed 45 runs for litany and never got it! I completed freaking staff of arcane power that gives me +2 to spells DC, but I cant get litany that gives me stacking +1 to int... Great game design. No one is listening to repairing 20th completion list again.

But wait (3) there is also elite Reaves. Elite of course to upgrade items. It was still TOO EASY, so lets make 100% lightning dmg more for those who want to get mana. I just done even want to know what will be next.


I don't fault the devs for scaling the content. I would however prefer that they left the raids alone on normal (for continual pug raids throughout the day), scaled up on hard (bosses cast different spells, blades follow you around etc.), then make elite increasingly hard (bosses have heavy fort, blades hit harder etc.)
I really don't fault devs for scaling elite for those who need challenges. It was a good move.

Their fault is in making this game elite (players elite).
If you don't agree tell me why every best item has to be only for the best and ppl. Those who aren't flawless just can't get it?
Why marks in Abbot/Reavers drop only on elite and not instead elite gives you 100% of getting one hard 60% and normal 25%?
Why alchemical T3 is only for those who have already best gear in game to be even more awesome?! - cause you need to be awesome, geared and flawless build to do LOB on epic.
So that best geared/TRed/build ppl will be still the best, be elite of the game.
Running in city in red dragon scale armor is not elite anymore, too many ppl have it, now its time to do other stuff only for The Chosen ppl.

No space for noobs in there anymore, you can close F2P soon, you only scare ppl away.
I'm sorry for being rude in here but I'm true with myself and that means being disappointed how the game works since U10 when you tempered with Abbot.


I have heard some people say that a game needs to change or it becomes stagnant and if a game becomes stagnant it dies.

I would say, content does not create stagnation, it is player base. If game has enough players, and it can survive on what is has, then the game should focus on that player base.

However, for a game to thrive, it needs to grow, both in content and player base. And I feel that DDO is going in the wrong direction with their changes. Very few people have the patience and ability to teach raids to other people while struggling to get the raid done in the first place.

And making content like that, is going to hurt their new player base. When I first started I loved that I could put up an LFM and have it full within 10 min, and be questing for the day. I would put up shroud raid and I could not click Accept fast enough to get a move on to doing the raid. It was just so fun and easy going. This enjoyable social aspect made meeting new people, made getting that one old hand and those few new players mixed into a Raid Bag, just fun.

But as the difficulty scales up, so too does the exclusivity. And that, is no fun.
Agreed 100%!

[paulyne]

i dont think the problem is having some difficult raids which only a few can manage, the problem is doing an easy shroud for 3 years and than suddenly having it taken away from you - that was the same problem with the increase in epic velah and chrono health (those 2 used to be easy too, but then suddenly werent anymore)

a lot of the more casual people dont mind not running LOB epic, they had raids like the shroud instead, but now they feel that they cant complete it anymore, at least on a regular basis

i dont think pug-shroud is that bad at the moment, if people get used to the blades and remember not to stand in them all the time - but it is somewhat sad that there are wipes in pug-shroud at the moment. we used to do some difficult epics or raids and when we failed we used to say "now lets join a shroud to relaxe", it doesnt quite relief your stress if you have to worry about wipes now.

and it doesnt matter if the shroud is stil easy for some, a lot of people, at least on the forums and in shroud i were in the last few days, seem to be scared and feel it has become too difficult, perception is reality to some degree here, if they feel they cant complete it anymore they are more inclined to stop playing i guess

[Ivan_Milic]

I just did Reavers elite without single death.
Im a barb lvl20 with 430 hp,no epic items,gs items or any raid items.

[Hokiewa]

I just did Reavers elite without single death.
Im a barb lvl20 with 430 hp,no epic items,gs items or any raid items.

So you piked? There are some things you really just shouldn't admit.

:D

[danotmano1998]

Everyone keep in mind that a level 17 raid like Shroud IS NOT END GAME CONTENT.

Keep the difficulty the way it was on normal. Raise it on Hard and Elite.
That's not hard to grasp.

Everyone wins. Elite geared players can challenge themselves with Elite. Good, experienced players can challenge themself on Hard. Casual players can at least stand a decent chance to complete and start the process of collecting the dozens and dozens of runs worth of ingredients to make the next step of gear.

The bar has been raised significantly. My concern is that it will lead to exclusivity (Which is already starting with the "Link DR breakers, >400hp Shroud pugs I've already seen going up.") Which will heartily discourage new players.

[Lord_Thanatos]

I would like to add that the devs have also nerfed some of the normal abbot gear apparently, and that some of their current functions are now moved upgraded forms.

So to get the same gear for some items from Abbot, now you MUST run it on elite, while before people have gotten items like nox embers and vile blasphemy from just running them on normal. Yay for moving the bar upwards again and creating even more grind.

Vile apparently has only 1 charge unupgraded and needs to be upgraded to get 4. Noxious loses greater arcane lore until upgraded.

So, yay if you already have the items you wanted? GL if you are new and want them?

[KillEveryone]

You are not guarenteed a completion just because you enter the quest. You are not entitled to anything.

The game had been catering to the casuals and those that want things easy. It is nice to see a bone tossed to the more hardcore.

You should have decent gear and a decent build for raids. Not necessarly A+ but you shouldn't be bringing in C- characters.

Elite and epic SHOULD require A+ characters or very good knowledge of the quest to be able to compensate for you lack of gear so that you know when to strike and when to back off.

There isn't anythig wrong with the quests. They actually got a bit better. You just have to adapt your strategies and do more than just gank and spank.

You cite lag as a problem. I'll admit I've had my share but it isn't crippling. I did on my older computer have more issues with lag but that mostly went away with my current rig which laughs at what the game makes it do because it is just a tickle. I'm pretty sure most lag problems I do have is in between my end and the servers. While there may be a few problems on the servers, I don't really believe that it is all their problems. I think lag is more of a scape goat than admiting that you tried to do these things with poorly build or improperly equiped characters.

Get better gear. Build stronger characters. Have someone craft basic DR breakers for you if you do not have a crafter. Learn new tactics to deal with the changes.

[DeafeningWhisper]

You are not guarenteed a completion just because you enter the quest. You are not entitled to anything.

The game had been catering to the casuals and those that want things easy. It is nice to see a bone tossed to the more hardcore.

You should have decent gear and a decent build for raids. Not necessarly A+ but you shouldn't be bringing in C- characters.

Elite and epic SHOULD require A+ characters or very good knowledge of the quest to be able to compensate for you lack of gear so that you know when to strike and when to back off.

Get better gear. Build stronger characters. Have someone craft basic DR breakers for you if you do not have a crafter. Learn new tactics to deal with the changes.

Obviously were not guaranteed anything, not even fun it seems. Have you seen U11 and U12? The hardcore minority got whole skeletons right there, not just a few bones.

"Get better gear. Build stronger characters." Sure, just make it so NORM Shroud (not hard, not elite) can be completed by at lvl toons on their 1st life with no GS and on 28 pts to get the better gear or should only those who have Tred and have already GS should be allowed to GS?

We would all like to get "better gear" but as things stand now you need the better gear to get the better gear...

[danotmano1998]

You are not guarenteed a completion just because you enter the quest. You are not entitled to anything.

The game had been catering to the casuals and those that want things easy. It is nice to see a bone tossed to the more hardcore.

You should have decent gear and a decent build for raids. Not necessarly A+ but you shouldn't be bringing in C- characters.

Elite and epic SHOULD require A+ characters or very good knowledge of the quest to be able to compensate for you lack of gear so that you know when to strike and when to back off.

There isn't anythig wrong with the quests. They actually got a bit better. You just have to adapt your strategies and do more than just gank and spank.

You cite lag as a problem. I'll admit I've had my share but it isn't crippling. I did on my older computer have more issues with lag but that mostly went away with my current rig which laughs at what the game makes it do because it is just a tickle. I'm pretty sure most lag problems I do have is in between my end and the servers. While there may be a few problems on the servers, I don't really believe that it is all their problems. I think lag is more of a scape goat than admiting that you tried to do these things with poorly build or improperly equiped characters.

Get better gear. Build stronger characters. Have someone craft basic DR breakers for you if you do not have a crafter. Learn new tactics to deal with the changes.

Agreed. The changes are great. IF they were to hard and elite only. Which is the point of having those difficulties, isn't it? So folks can choose their difficulty based on their playstyle?

If you raise the bar on a level 17 quest to (arguably) be almost as difficult as epics or real end game stuff, doesn't that seem a bit much?

I personally am enjoying the challenges. Harry's flying strafing runs are awesome. It's about time they added something to do instead of just stand around for 2 minutes while he flies around in the air.

I also think that the upgraded blade damages are a good idea. Give people a reason to be nervous around them. Make them pay attention.

In fact, the only real problem I have with these changes at all is that they raised the bar too much on the normal setting. Scale the damage back on the blades 1/2 way, or make it so they don't process 5 times in 1 second.

[Kadriel]

Too much to read, but just to put a point here to the OP:

If you are not part of the powergamer crew don't play with the powergamer crew. Game is a lot more fun if you run with ppl that think alike

I have been playing since Mod 5 and still got a lot of gimps. I die in quests, and don't mind at all if ppl die on my 4th life TR runs. Don't spend any time on lvl 20 on my couse I don't care a bit about getting the bestest gear ever. I like enjoying the game as a whole. And I have a lot of fun, even when playing with a undeargeared party of gimps. Man, dying can be the funiest part of the game if you don't take it too serious

[somenewnoob]

Too much to read, but just to put a point here to the OP:

If you are not part of the powergamer crew don't play with the powergamer crew. Game is a lot more fun if you run with ppl that think alike

I have been playing since Mod 5 and still got a lot of gimps. I die in quests, and don't mind at all if ppl die on my 4th life TR runs. Don't spend any time on lvl 20 on my couse I don't care a bit about getting the bestest gear ever. I like enjoying the game as a whole. And I have a lot of fun, even when playing with a undeargeared party of gimps. Man, dying can be the funiest part of the game if you don't take it too serious

This is true.

I remember blowing myself up on the Irestone Inlet boat......one of my fondest memories!
:D

[Orratti]

The old content was not easier. What is different now is determination, a love of dungeons and dragons, and decent leadership. All of which is lacking now. I remember wiping on normal velah capped at lvl 10 time after time and saying this isn't worth it. I would have never ran it again either were it not for in guild friends. I also wouldn't have come to the forums to complain.

[KoboldKiller]

I switched to Fallout 3 Game of the year edition and New Vegas.

Been much happier.

[Yagi]

For me, ddo is the exact opposite.

*The vets who played 3 years longer then me have NO advantages that can not be overcome. They know more? I learn. They have more gear? I get my own drops. They have more consumables? The chests I open have cash in them too. And I could potentially get all of those drops and build toons as strong as theirs (and in fact far stronger then most) without even interacting with a single vet if I really wanted to.
Vets absolutely could not stop me from importing buddies and running my own stuff without their consent.

This is a purely instanced game, nobody can block me from accessing any content at all, nobody can train my raid or pvp me during a boss fight. Sure there are a few builds that got grandfathered in that I can never ever make, but nothing gamebreaking.

Vets cant shut me out of anything in ddo, at all.

Its a far cry from other games where for instance, if you are not one of the top guilds, every moment you spend alive is one that they allow, directly or through apathy towards your existence.
I've played games, such as EQ on RZ where the endgame for us was NOT about droping the monsters and getting that phat loot, that was secondary goal. Our primary goal was to assert our will in a never ending struggle for dominance that a new player had literally no chance of participating in without one group or another supporting them every step of the way, or at least allowing them to rise in power.

*this is not an anti-vet post, obviously this is a mmo and I enjoy interacting with people and have benefited greatly from the knowledge and altruism of vets and I just plain enjoy the company of anybody who seeks fun, but the reality is that such things are a perk, its not actually required.

Edited to add that there are some disadvantages that a new player faces today that I do recognize, mainly, reknown decay that promotes a closing of ranks, which seems silly and short-sighted to me. But again, this too can be overcome.

[Chai]

For me, ddo is the exact opposite.

*The vets who played 3 years longer then me have NO advantages that can not be overcome. They know more? I learn. They have more gear? I get my own drops. They have more consumables? The chests I open have cash in them too. And I could potentially get all of those drops and build toons as strong as theirs (and in fact far stronger then most) without even interacting with a single vet if I really wanted to.
Vets absolutely could not stop me from importing buddies and running my own stuff without their consent.

This is a purely instanced game, nobody can block me from accessing any content at all, nobody can train my raid or pvp me during a boss fight. Sure there are a few builds that got grandfathered in that I can never ever make, but nothing gamebreaking.

Vets cant shut me out of anything in ddo, at all.

Its a far cry from other games where for instance, if you are not one of the top guilds, every moment you spend alive is one that they allow, directly or through apathy towards your existence.
I've played games, such as EQ on RZ where the endgame for us was NOT about droping the monsters and getting that phat loot, that was secondary goal. Our primary goal was to assert our will in a never ending struggle for dominance that a new player had literally no chance of participating in without one group or another supporting them every step of the way, or at least allowing them to rise in power.

*this is not an anti-vet post, obviously this is a mmo and I enjoy interacting with people and have benefited greatly from the knowledge and altruism of vets and I just plain enjoy the company of anybody who seeks fun, but the reality is that such things are a perk, its not actually required.

Edited to add that there are some disadvantages that a new player faces today that I do recognize, mainly, reknown decay that promotes a closing of ranks, which seems silly and short-sighted to me. But again, this too can be overcome.

I agree.

Other games have much stricter mechanics for who can participate in what tier level of the game.

It took a long time to build up a geared toon a few years back. If you wanted to build for a specific stat or characteristic many times there was only one good item for the slot.

Now days there are so many raids and epic quests that can be farmed in a parallel fashion, that it doesnt take much time at all to get decent gear.

TRing is just the icing on the cake.

[Vormaerin]

Talk about selective memory. What about all the ways the game is vastly easier than it was before? Hirelings, crafting, tons of new unique & set gear from ordinary quests, new spells, etc?

People used to run these quests when spellcasters had no DoTs, DR breakers were hard to get, max hp were lower, and so on.

You can get far better gear from the other quests now than you ever could in the past. You can get exceptional stats and +3 tomes without going into a raid at all. You can just craft a DR breaker if you don't find one.

This game is not harder than it was before. It is not more exclusive than it was before. The raids, supposedly the most challenging content in the game, got adjusted to account for all the other power creep in the game.

This whole thread, btw, ignores the fact that most people who play the game don't even raid much. The game is definitely easier for all those people.

[QuantumFX]

I read the OP and all I came away with was this:
http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/95percent.jpg

[Hirosue]

Very well said xandariant. +1

While I didn’t agree with everything you said I think you have pretty well summarised how a lot of people are feeling at the moment. I have has some long chats with some of my guildies and they have raised many of the issues that you have.

Mainly that it seems mostly impossible for raids to be successfully completed at level in a PUg these days. With quite a few of the raids not being run in Pugs’ at all.

Turbine is making some very strange decisions about DDO lately and I wonder if the focus groups and lamania previews are actually achieving anything at all. As turbine don’t seem to be listening to the players.

the changes to the shroud say it all, make the raid much harder by putting in random deaths (party wipes) care of blades and on top of that make the final chest loot random, so no certainty of getting the loot you ran the raid for ( large ingredients) i.e. the players are getting screwed in the quest and screwed on the rewards at the end.

Personally I think I will be taking a break from DDO very soon and the chances are that I won’t be back again.

[Chaos000]

If you are not part of the powergamer crew don't play with the powergamer crew. Game is a lot more fun if you run with ppl that think alike

The point that is made is on a normal raid it should be scaled with the assumption that a group of optimized characters with non-optimized gear should still manage a successful completion.

An experienced gamer who is accustomed to 100% successful runs and doesn't have time to waste is going to be less likely to open up the raid group to someone running the raid for the first time if it increases the likelihood of a party wipe. = more exclusion = less available anyone join pug groups at any given time of the day.

Fact of the matter. Normal raids should be designed to promote more grouping not less while elite is increased in challenge for the elite few. If you only have time to run a raid on a character because your timer's up, every party wipe will add to a less probability you will log in to do a "quick raid honey and then we can: go out to dinner/pick up the kids/go shopping." Less people to group with will result in less grouping overall and that's not what the game needs.

example: Cannith challenges are a frustrating as it is difficult for a full group of 20's to hit all 5 optionals despite the challenge being WAY lower than their level. As it is right now if I've gotten my 5 favor for a challenge because it's such a pain in the butt I won't run it more than once on any given character.

[Vormaerin]

Heh. It seems like the core problem here is that DDO isn't like other MMOs with big signs saying "GEAR CHECK HERE", so everyone thinks they should be able to complete everything regardless of what they've got for a character.

Learning to get out of the way of the blades is not exactly rocket science. Apparently some folks think that the Shroud is the "training" raid, but its not. Its actually the 7th raid in terms of level progression, IIRC.

You should already have some pretty good gear from the other zones and quests before you go in, as well as an appreciation that this game isn't usually 'tank n spank' game play.

If you have that, then go play. Its eminently doable. If people screw up, well, they screw up and you try again. so it goes.

[Chaos000]

Heh. It seems like the core problem here is that DDO isn't like other MMOs with big signs saying "GEAR CHECK HERE", so everyone thinks they should be able to complete everything regardless of what they've got for a character.

On normal, raids *should* be pug friendly. Btw an example of gear measurements is "link your DR breakers" "have at least X amount of HP before joining" "tr and experienced players only"

In my experience it takes two or three overgeared experienced players to compensate for someone inexperienced and/or undergeared (often joining to get first hand experience and get geared). With the release of u11+12 this is no longer the case and even one or two inexperienced and/or undergeared is now a serious liability to the whole group.

It's also not just gear. Keep adding additional an aspects of timing in a raid, then anyone that often experiencing lag during raids are being repeatedly screwed.

Grinding raids for 20 completions on normal *should* be easy. Those complaining about the challenge should be joining the naked raid runs or running them on hard or elite.

[Vormaerin]

PUG friendly and "any random person with or without gear or basic competence" are not synonyms.

I'm quite confident that once the blades have been experienced for a few runs, the best way to deal with them will be widely known and then it'll be back to farming normal shroud.

The main reason for the current failures seems to be expecting the blades to be irrelevant like they have been for a while now. Once people figure out the behavior and timing, it'll be fine.

[mournbladereigns]

I read the OP and all I came away with was this:
http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/95percent.jpg

+1 for you, you sir are a gentlemen and a scholar!

[Ungood]

None of the changes to Abbot or Shroud were asked for, nor are they welcome. There is nothing good that has come from these changes.

This update was a total waste of time and money as far as I see it.

[mournbladereigns]

For me, ddo is the exact opposite.

*The vets who played 3 years longer then me have NO advantages that can not be overcome. They know more? I learn. They have more gear? I get my own drops. They have more consumables? The chests I open have cash in them too. And I could potentially get all of those drops and build toons as strong as theirs (and in fact far stronger then most) without even interacting with a single vet if I really wanted to.
Vets absolutely could not stop me from importing buddies and running my own stuff without their consent.

This is a purely instanced game, nobody can block me from accessing any content at all, nobody can train my raid or pvp me during a boss fight. Sure there are a few builds that got grandfathered in that I can never ever make, but nothing gamebreaking.

Vets cant shut me out of anything in ddo, at all.

Its a far cry from other games where for instance, if you are not one of the top guilds, every moment you spend alive is one that they allow, directly or through apathy towards your existence.
I've played games, such as EQ on RZ where the endgame for us was NOT about droping the monsters and getting that phat loot, that was secondary goal. Our primary goal was to assert our will in a never ending struggle for dominance that a new player had literally no chance of participating in without one group or another supporting them every step of the way, or at least allowing them to rise in power.

*this is not an anti-vet post, obviously this is a mmo and I enjoy interacting with people and have benefited greatly from the knowledge and altruism of vets and I just plain enjoy the company of anybody who seeks fun, but the reality is that such things are a perk, its not actually required.

Edited to add that there are some disadvantages that a new player faces today that I do recognize, mainly, reknown decay that promotes a closing of ranks, which seems silly and short-sighted to me. But again, this too can be overcome.

^THIS^

Very easy to play your way in DDO. Their sole chance to ruin your fun is during Mabar:)

[katz]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GrpysCGX-wg/Tr306OufVRI/AAAAAAAABcU/fxJ4iWQ4nkA/s465/holycrp.jpg

the most patient person in DDO is fed up with this s***. this man has the patience of a saint. he runs Abbot and Titan twice a week like clockwork. he patiently explains and teaches everything in excruciating detail, and NEVER seems to get angry. he's a treasure. and he's about to walk out the door.

i'm not one to make these kind of posts. i take a 'wait and see' approach. i was still *mostly* having fun. but that's the writing on the wall. the wake up call.

whoever at Turbine, who has the clout to do something about this... are you listening? are you reading this? YOU'RE GOING THE WRONG **** WAY.

/cry

[Vormaerin]

I'm sorry that your friend is leaving, or considering it. But that's not really evidence of anything. I could put up anecdotes from the dozen or so players I run with, all of whom play 3-5 nights a week and are subscribers (well, one is premium). They are completely fine with the changes.

That kind of testimonial doesn't prove anything except about the state of that individual. Some number of people are stoked by the changes. Some number are upset. A lot more are neither. The balance is practically impossible to tell, especially this quickly after the update.

[Uska]

None of the changes to Abbot or Shroud were asked for, nor are they welcome. There is nothing good that has come from these changes.

This update was a total waste of time and money as far as I see it.

ON this point I am starting to agree with you

[mystafyi]

The balance is practically impossible to tell, especially this quickly after the update.

I track players online on orien. so far we are running around 10% less players for a weekend night. could be skewed due to holiday weekend.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I come from an MMO called RO (Ragnarok Online), where everyone and anyone can reach cap if they put the time and learn the skills, guaranteed.

They have a test server (not just a preview server like Lam) where all the vets had to start from scratch (no copy-paste of toons) and mainly use the easy to get gear that was added when the new cap was implemented (better then npc bought, less powerful then rare, named loot).

Each time any new content is added it is tested for months on said server and the devs weekly re-balance the content based on the feedback (listening to testers? Preposterous I know), they see bugs/exploits, devs fix it. They see a class able to solo a map and keep others from getting exp? Nurfed. A spell is useless? buffed, etc.

Basically nothing is released until the vets have proven that the end game content can be beaten on the easy gear with just skills and time.

So why don't the vets with twink gear playing for years cry "MOARRrrrRRrRRr ChALllLllLEnGE!!!!" everytime?

The answer is "guild wars", twice a week PvP focused dungeons with unique mechanics where the elite can test their mettle against each other. This allows for everyone to be happy; casual player want to reach the top? Sure, take your time you'll get there. Hardcore players want to prove their superiority and get a challenge? Hunt the rarest of drops, get the best gear you can and try new strategies on people doing the same. Everyone is happy, because no one has to step on anyone's else toes to achieve what they want.

What's my point? Implement real PvP into DDO, maybe use the new challenges as templates, imagine running the new challenges trying to beat another team, by either succeeding to the goals 1st or ambushing them.



P.S. Why did I leave you ask? I love DnD and would play it in any shape or form, so when my friends said they started playing DDO I followed and loved it. With a few tweaks it could be the perfect MMO.

[Chaos000]

PUG friendly and "any random person with or without gear or basic competence" are not synonyms.

I agree. I'm just trying to establish that PUG friendly raids on normal should be far more forgiving towards common mistakes made by anyone new to the raid. Someone entering the shroud for the first time should not be expected to have a GS hp item and weapon. Basic DR breakers should be sufficient but we all know that's not the case.



The main reason for the current failures seems to be expecting the blades to be irrelevant like they have been for a while now. Once people figure out the behavior and timing, it'll be fine.

The timing relies on the assumption that the average competent player has a decent computer and server lag is a non-issue. Anyone that does not fit this profile will continue to be excluded from PUG groups even on normal does this not appear to be the case?

[Mephisto-Helix]

I've already seen 3 "Have 400+ HP please" Shroud groups ..... not very friendly for a normal run in my opinion. And don't try tell me it's not because of the blades, it is. Decisions that make the game less open to newbies are stupid.

[NaturalHazard]

ON this point I am starting to agree with you

I wouldnt put you in the doom and gloom brigade, your normally one of those wait and see people, or even making fun of people who complain (not in a nasty way), to see you and some others agreeing with those sentiments is kind of an eye opener.

[Dhampire2222]

I've played DDO and other MMORPG games and I have to say that for DDO, newer players don't really have that much difficulty to get good gear as older players, as compared to other games. Recent events like Crystal Cove and Mabar also provided easy acquisition of epic gear to boost the average player's dps/survivability. If you've been a level 20 for at least 4-6 months and you've been grinding high level raids regularly, the gap between newer (<1 year playing DDO) and older players (>1 year playing DDO) is not that significant, excluding benefits from TRs, just talking about gear-wise, imho. If you've just start playing DDO not too long ago, then I guess these recent changes can be upsetting but in the long run I think you are not going into a raid alone so a mix of newer/older players can overcome these new changes.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I've played DDO and other MMORPG games and I have to say that for DDO, newer players don't really have that much difficulty to get good gear as older players, as compared to other games. Recent events like Crystal Cove and Mabar also provided easy acquisition of epic gear to boost the average player's dps/survivability. If you've been a level 20 for at least 4-6 months and you've been grinding high level raids regularly, the gap between newer (<1 year playing DDO) and older players (>1 year playing DDO) is not that significant, excluding benefits from TRs, just talking about gear-wise, imho. If you've just start playing DDO not too long ago, then I guess these recent changes can be upsetting but in the long run I think you are not going into a raid alone so a mix of newer/older players can overcome these new changes.

I agree, but vets are taking less and less newbies in Pugs (finding a vet who wants fun runs instead of completions is not as simple as you would think) . Almost all the Abbots and ToDs Pugs I see have "know it", "Trs Only" and now more and more of the Shrouds have "350+ hp/know it", also most of the epic raids have leaders check you out in myddo before approval, worse now I see "be geared, CC/Mabar gear is not enough".

Every time I do a quest for the 1st time I say as much before joining, most of the time I get in (usually get props for been upfront about it) but for the harder quests I often get a "sorry, need to know it, not newbie friendly".

[Indoran]

yah. yer new. lets take a little stroll, shall we? xandariant. look him up in my.ddo. i'll wait while you go check.

back already? ok, lets start, shall we? he has a stable full of 20s loaded with green steel, epic gear, and raid gear galore. every toon has gear to drool over. even his least geared 20th level toon has one true epic item. so no stranger to epics and raids

next turn your attention to the left side, under his player icon. oh look, he's in Phoenix Knights. hmmm. 82nd level guild. lets take a look at the guild leaderboard on my.ddo, shall we? oh look, the only guilds higher level on his server are Over Raided (100) and Righteous Ire (88).

if THIS person says "raids are ridiculous" i'm inclined to believe him.

l2p indeed. do some research before you shoot yourself in the foot next time

Argument of authority... pffffff

and well guild leaderboard must be wrong... Have seen some more of 80-90s guilds just in khyber...

And anyway I have seen level 80 guilds with lots of noobs in...

I dont go by authority and even worse this is a matter of taste mostly...

Well he is sick and tired of the game... go take a break! that's about it...

Yes I also would like some changes... but I think the game is not ruined as it is... if something ruins the game is the attitude of some people... (not pointing fingers anywhere)


I've already seen 3 "Have 400+ HP please" Shroud groups ..... not very friendly for a normal run in my opinion. And don't try tell me it's not because of the blades, it is. Decisions that make the game less open to newbies are stupid.

I was leading a shroud pug... guy with 200 hp joins and then my guildy and I just ask him outright: how come you are soooo squishy (no minos, no gfl, no +6 con item on a tr) I am not an item farmer he says... My self assigned duty as pug leader is to ensure a nice experience for everybody... you can play any way you want, but if you are in my pug you either have some respect for the success chances of the group or you are out.

Yes... sometimes I define my enjoyment of the game in terms of quest completion (not in the abbot lol)

[Snootch]

I have to disagree with the OP on some points and agree on others. My first impression, however, is that there are people out there who spend a good portion of their lives playing video games and staying indoors. Over time, that sedentary lifestyle becomes unhealthy for various reasons, including depriving the human mind of truly positive stimulation. When boredom starts to set in, then the next bad mistake to make is to look for other video games to get bored with. I am thinking that Mother would want us all to broaden our horizons a bit and take up other hobbies that add variety to our lives - get us out of the house, take our eyes off of computer and television screens, etc. If we put all our eggs into one basket (like with video games), then we run a high risk of losing sight of better options to take up our time.

That said, the OP mentions the game mechanics and balancing. Being an MMO, I have noticed that things balance out with the make-up of parties. That is, picking six players from this massively multiplayer online game community (out of hundreds or thousands online with us at the same time) should lead to what this game is all about: role-playing. After all, we should all know by now that DDO is a MMORPG. If you play it like an MMORPG, then you will get the maximum benefit from it. If you play it like just another action game, then it might end up disappointing you, and you might end up disappointing others who group with you.

When I think of balancing, I think of what each of the twelve classes bring to the table. Then I make a party that is balanced by the make-up of the characters who should be specializing in their class. For example, classes specialize based on their Prestige Enhancements (PEs). If you want to know where these classes can go and excel, then look no further than the PEs. Everything after that should lend to your PE strategy. If you can figure that out, then you just need to find people doing the same thing with their characters and then form a balanced group with them. A balanced party of six people makes this game really fun, in my humble opinion, as it is the epitome of the MMORPG genre. DDO does not disappoint when we come to a D&D game and play it how it should be played, even though the combat is action-oriented; this is still a MMORPG.

While balancing a raid party is more challenging, I would rely on my guild to make something wonderful like that happen. I suggest this because PUGing is really hit-and-miss, while guild membership is for when you get to know someone. When you make friends in this community, you can see who likes the same things as you and wants to play the same way that you do. Find 6-12 people and form a guild, then you can balance your parties just about perfectly. Then it's just a matter of signing on at the same time. :)

But this game gets unbalanced when we try to play with people who are swayed by the arguments of a small class of DDO Community members who speak in these wild universal "truths." For example, there are catch phrases out there that make playing DDO harder than if you just played to what made sense. For example, "Constitution is not a dump stat" fails to mention what a focus in Dexterity can accomplish that Constitution cannot. If you build a DEX-based character that is optimized by his class, then you don't need Constitution. Followed by this line is usually something like "you can't play if you're dead," which is true for every build. So when we go to PUG, we find too many builds investing in stats that do not assist the build, as well as controversial Skill investments like Use Magic Device, Jump, and other things that can be handled by simply having the right people in your party. Imagine how much balance we would have in Eberron is everyone built specialists instead of these watered-down builds that we find where they have a little bit in everything. When I think of a specialized character field, I think of ways to optimize my parties: have two infantry units, an artillery piece, a Skills specialist, a crowd controller, and a party healer. That kind of thinking encompasses all races and classes, especially at the raid level.

When I see builds that go for maximum Hit Points and little specialization, it becomes evident that they have not considered what each class is capable of doing when it reaches Level 20. After all, the classes themselves have plenty of hints laced throughout each to help us along, such as primary (and sometimes secondary) statistics just waiting to be enhanced. (Like Wisdom and Charisma for Clerics, Strength for Fighters, and Dexterity for Rogues, to name a few.) When someone advocates for these classes to dump their primary or secondary statistic in favor of a "universal statistic," then we get an insight as to why our PUGs can be so challenging, thus making the game seem imbalanced.

Anyway, if you want the game to be more balanced, then play it as it should be played: make a class specialist with a race that lends to that. If you need help understanding what that means, then just look at (1) the class' Prestige Enhancement(s), (2) the various Enhancements that can be taken up to Level 20 (try a DDO character builder program from online), and (3) the free Feats that come with the race and class that lend to that specialized character strategy. If you take your character to the maximum for his class, then you will see great benefits when playing with others who did the same. Then DDO looks and plays like it should be: like a MMORPG.

The OP complains about the latest increases in game difficulty. To be honest, I have not really noticed much in the way of that, but I know that Turbine tweaked the game a little. Regardless, I prefer to play in guild parties where our characters are designed around each other as specialists. The at-level content that we play certainly challenges us from time to time, but we play really well together as a team of friends with proper character class builds. The challenges so far have been overcomeable, but we have not played everything in the game yet. When we tried the Shroud on Elite, the lag was so horrible that our entire raid party wiped without most of us knowing until a few seconds after it happened. If you are familiar with Megadeth, they have a song called "Wake Up Dead." Yeah, it was like that.

That said, the OP knows what he is talking about, obviously. I just want to say that many of the challenges associated with Turbine's tweaks are still remedied by specializing your class builds and playing with others who have done the same. Like I said before, two infantry, one artillery, one crowd controller, one Skills specialist, and one party healer makes for probably the most balanced team experience you can have in DDO. There are simply no deficiencies in that party dynamic unless someone tries to be good in melee, ranged, spellcasting, and everything all at once. If you do your job and do it well, then you can be reliable and can rely on others who play like that. DDO is truly a fun game when played to the MMORPG genre strengths.

But like the OP said, the lag is a game-changer. Since Update 11, the lag has gotten more worse than I have seen since I started playing back in May 2010. With Update 12, it just seems to be mega. I have theorized with my friends as to why the lag is so bad on the Argonnessen server, for example. We wonder if it is because there are a lot of people online at once; or maybe that in combination with a particular quest's grand-scale graphics presentation. I know that individual computers working independently of one another, though trying to undertake the same event together, is like herding cats and dogs. At times, I want to blame Turbine for not having a satisfactory system in place, but at other times I can understand that there are so many variables out there that it could just be anything, really. I want to blame graphics cards and whatnot, but sometimes I wonder if Turbine is shooting itself in the foot with its prioritization scheme that allegedly benefits VIP subscribers and makes F2P-only folks hate the game presentation.

Whatever the case, when we tried the Shroud raid on Elite the other day, like I said, it was pretty much over before it started. As one of the raid party healers, I was intently watching the Health Bars and didn't notice much of the lag until I noticed grand scale chaos and death erupt without any real warning. It seemed impossible that four or five guys would all die at once together, and once I noticed what was going on, I too became the victim of "waking up dead." First I see no enemies, then I see ten, then I notice that six of us died together. We never had a chance. We re-ran the Shroud on Hard to better success given (A) less lag (for some reason) and (B) the difficulty allowed more forgiveness for lag occurrences like that. So as it sits now, I have not seen many playable quests since Update 11 and 12 have come out, and I am hoping that Turbine didn't do something silly like de-prioritize their game for F2P and lapsed Premium players. After all, if you open the game up to the world, then it should work the same for all of us, or it will be hard to convince us to spend money on you after treatment like that.

Anyway, the OP mentions the rewards for playing in static groups (which I have thus presented here), the wonderful items that make playing this game so much more plausible, and making friends in this community. It is hard for me to imagine why anybody would come to a MMORPG and seek anything besides those things anyway. After all, if you like playing alone with a multi-roled character that does his own thing, then why are you on a MMORPG? The static group should always be the best option for playing any kind of RPG, as that is we know and love about RPGs! The MMO part of that means that we get to meet you and enjoy your company and have fun together. Trying to play DDO with characters not designed for class- and role-specialization and then by yourself (like running away from the party in order to complete quests quicker - if you even live to do so) should never be relied upon for success in a MMORPG. If you fail when doing that stuff, then consider what kind of game you are playing and then either join the fun or find another genre to play. Don't come to a MMORPG and try to make it into a massively solo-player no-role game (MSPNRG...?). DDO is a MMORPG; learn how to play that way or get upset in your stubbornness. Know what you are getting into instead of trying to change the thing.

Beyond that, the OP goes into a general complaint regarding the DDO Store prices. From what I can tell, Turbine is out to make money off of us. I wonder if they regret having gone F2P or if they are really trying hard to get us to see the "wisdom" in going VIP. After all, with those monthly Turbine Points (TP) and open-ended content provisions, surely we could all see the validity in using those leftover TP for things that pop into our whimsy. And it makes sense to put great hardship onto those that want only to play the game for free and then get free TP in order to unlock further content. Well, with the DDO Store prices where they are now (and they keep going up!), I can't imagine why I'd spend any TP there, whether I was VIP or not.

Regardless, there are a lot of illogical connections between being a VIP, a Premium, and a Free-to-Play person. For example, it seems downright sinister that Turbine would charge anybody anything for a Drow race unlock when we can get it for free after just attaining 400 Favor Points in the game. But then I think about the impulsive folks in the world who don't want to wait until then, for whatever reason. Then I think about Turbine simply trying to press every market that they can consider, which is all reasonable. So when I think of to what and where Turbine is trying to lead us all in their marketing campaigns, I end up realizing that not a lot actually applies to me. In fact, I am only in the market for a few things like unlocking Adventure Packs and maybe some guild stuff (Airship augmentation). I don't want Cure Wands showing up on the DDO Store page - my friends give those to me for free so that I can use them on their characters. This might be an example of Turbine trying to hit that solo-player sub-group in the DDO Community, but I can't imagine why anyone would actually spend TP on things that can be found in the game for free. Either this is specialized marketing or it is just overtly useless. Whatever the case, the DDO Store does not interest me until things go on sale, which always leads me to think, "Why not just sell them at this price all the time?" After all, that is what they are worth: the sale price.

Anyway, I think the OP is a regular guy that plays video games and has great experience with DDO. All it takes to understand his points is time. Accomplishing ANYTHING in DDO just takes time, of course, and the OP's words come from a guy that has indeed taken the time. He is right that end-game content is really just all about the items and party strategies that work. These result from time. Time, time, time. And what makes the game worthwhile are the thousands of really nice and helpful people who don't bring weird attitudes into parties. When you can meet nice people from around the world who just want to have fun and succeed in the game, then spending all that time on DDO becomes a pleasant pastime. But like one responder said, the veterans of DDO (those who have been playing for a while) include a minority sub-group of abusive folks who mistreat both new players and veterans alike. These folks can cripple what Turbine is trying to accomplish (which is more money).

The main problem I have with Turbine on this is their reluctance to reduce abusive practices in the Community, probably for the sake of losing that money-maker. For me personally, I cancelled my VIP subscription after just three months because I was fed up with the ease in abusing DDO Community members. Without the necessary tools to protect ourselves from the small number of abusive folks in the community, that small number seems to be a lot larger. Enabling us to remove these abusive accounts from our view is precisely the thing that would have me re-up my subscription. So in difference to the OP, perhaps, my primary beef with Turbine is not so much the game balance, but rather the ability to weed out the really abusive accounts that number in small quantities overall. At this point, they kind of strut their stuff around the place without much fear. (Well, until recently. I have noticed Turbine really going to town in cleaning this place up a lot. However, there are still little avenues that abusive accounts exploit. If we can run these few abusive accounts out of here, or at least minimize their manipulation of the community dynamics, then we would be set!)

So I promise Turbine that I will give them $100 to become a year-long VIP if they can help us prevent unwanted messages from abusive accounts. That is all that I ask. The lag issues would surely be worked out eventually, and I would expect that as a VIP member that I'd have a higher priority in the whole connection thing anyway, however flawed I think that tactic is. You help me protect myself, Turbine, and I will play this MMORPG with people who agree with my style of static gameplay and making friends. After all, that is what MMORPGs are all about, and I'd hate to see you guys be unsuccessful in your marketing. I came to DDO because I did a search online for "free online RPG." This is my first experience with any MMO and any D&D game. Besides the blatant marketing campaigns that almost insult me (almost) and the weasly abuse that sometimes takes place, I think that you guys have a good platform here. Please, then, cater to the mature folks that just want to spend time in your community with a fun video game and fun people. Encourage the fun! Help us protect ourselves from the opposite. I really think that you will make more money that way, and perhaps a larger number of us would be willing to give it to you then. I don't play World of Warcraft and I won't ever if you guys can just market to me properly. The OP nails a lot of stuff on the head, obviously. The problems that I have had with Turbine are more on the customer service level than anything else. The game seems to be quite workable, albeit with poor DDO Store offerings. Show me better service - especially when I demand it - and then you can have my money. Recognize your audience and then sell them what they want.

Or whatever. I am just talking for me.

Good job, OP. Hopefully I won't reach your level of disappointment to quit entirely. If it weren't for the wonderful friends that I have made on DDO, I probably would have checked out a long time ago. I am glad to see Turbine cleaning this place up, though. I hope that their service and marketing get more smarter, though. The thing I regularly find myself wanting from Turbine is "better judgement." I wonder if they can figure out what I mean by that, especially when it comes to customer service and marketing.


Snootch

------------

Slootch of Argonnessen: one-time Font of Healing (28-point Turbine build) who TRed into a Paladin recently; my first character ever.

Ranessi of Argonnessen: my custom-built Cleric (32-point build) focusing on party healing (Wisdom and Charisma)

Cryptophonic of Argonnessen: my custom-built Drow Bard focusing on healing, Sonic magic, crowd control, and party buffs.

[Astraghal]

yah. yer new. lets take a little stroll, shall we? xandariant. look him up in my.ddo. i'll wait while you go check.

back already? ok, lets start, shall we? he has a stable full of 20s loaded with green steel, epic gear, and raid gear galore. every toon has gear to drool over. even his least geared 20th level toon has one true epic item. so no stranger to epics and raids

next turn your attention to the left side, under his player icon. oh look, he's in Phoenix Knights. hmmm. 82nd level guild. lets take a look at the guild leaderboard on my.ddo, shall we? oh look, the only guilds higher level on his server are Over Raided (100) and Righteous Ire (88).

if THIS person says "raids are ridiculous" i'm inclined to believe him.

l2p indeed. do some research before you shoot yourself in the foot next time

If anyone has multiple toons NOT dripping with budget/event epics/gear after Turbine spent the past year basically force-feeding them to us, I would be surprised. Other than that, I see nothing really special on the few I looked at.

[Vormaerin]

The timing relies on the assumption that the average competent player has a decent computer and server lag is a non-issue. Anyone that does not fit this profile will continue to be excluded from PUG groups even on normal does this not appear to be the case?

Well, if you want to rule out any timing events because of lag potential, you don't leave much, do you?

Heck, even 'tank and spank' in its purest forms are lag susceptible. What if your tank or healer lags at a bad time?

It may be that after a couple weeks of experimentation, we realize that the timing is too tight. But there's nothing so far to indicate that is the case. We just have alot of "OMG, the blades actually did damage" or "Ack, I tried something and it didn't work".

If this was a brand new raid, no one would be surprised by such things in the first few days.

[Templarion]

Think about Harry and his children! Before U12 Harry was losing every time - against any kind of 'heroes' who were able to crawl in the raid entrance.

Now he actually can be proud of himself when the work day is done. And no need to be embarrassed on the front of his kids. When Harry is feeling better, we are getting better rewards!

Players, don't think only yourselves! Think about the countless times of Harry losing. I heard some good news that his long last depression is starting to get better!

[Keylon]

Welcome to static group or pack of geared ppl or get lost
This is kind of attitude DDO gives to all new ppl. You won't get anything great anymore, completing raid (or epic raids) is only for the strongest. No chance for normal ppl. Pug raids are almost no more, no way to just run with a bunch of unknown ppl to have fun in raids. I can do quests, but you all know that in time you want to get items, and those are in raids, so you will always stay that weak person.


Not Exactly

You have to remember even ppl who have been playing for years have to deal with the problem of binding. Raid loot doesn't bind so any time even the elite players start a new character they have to deal with most the same problems as the average player the only difference is elite players tend to hang around other elite players that help each-other other than that I really don't see how these past few updates destroyed the pug scene?

[xandariant]

Not Exactly

You have to remember even ppl who have been playing for years have to deal with the problem of binding. Raid loot doesn't bind so any time even the elite players start a new character they have to deal with most the same problems as the average player the only difference is elite players tend to hang around other elite players that help each-other other than that I really don't see how these past few updates destroyed the pug scene?
Well i will give you a piece of mind in here, how much you are wrong.

Elite/longitme players few millions plat to buy staff they need.
Those items that were not BTC, are BTA, so they just pass it by bank, other items are to be bought by plat or just passed - a lot of not end game gear is easily bought with plat. So if you want to tell me that newcomers and old timers have similar problem you are SO WRONG.

And from another point of view. Old timers know how to make a good strong, toons. They know how to make strong 1st live to grind for items for the end build. They wont have problems with meeting hp demands and they can craft (if they invested, but many do) GFL itesm, or have friends who will make IFL items, for low lvl instead of paying a lot of plat that new ppl don't have to buy shards for crafting.

So if you really want to tell me, that being new in DDO, with all that scaling and raising ppl demands, showing HP, spaying on a toons in my DDO makes it easy for new ppl. Go for it.

BTW I'm not saying only about Shroud that most ppl think, cause it is one of worst changes.
I speak about all changes since U10, and all is in first 2 posts i made, for those who can read with understanding.

I think it only leads to frustration of new ppl and mass migration to a better place.
Yet Turbine wants to sell packs to many ppl, so why do they scare ppl away?

Do you like shooting yourself in the foot before running? I guess Turbine does.

[katz]

I'm sorry that your friend is leaving, or considering it. But that's not really evidence of anything...
i don't mean this in a mean way, but i can't think of how to reword it this early in the morning, but perhaps you missed the "most patient person in DDO" line. :( nothing ruffles this guy. even the guy who decided to lumberjack the pillars onto the people trying to loot after the titan was dead didn't get more than a firm (but calm) "I'm strongly considering not allowing you in Titan anymore." most people would be foaming at the mouth. this is not the type of person who just up and quits. he's not my friend. i don't know him well enough for that. he's just the most well known triple-boxer with the most well known haggle bard on Orien. to lose someone like THAT... is gonna be a blow.


Argument of authority... pffffff

and well guild leaderboard must be wrong... Have seen some more of 80-90s guilds just in khyber...


i responded to someone who said "l2play". i think i described someone who at least has a clue. i could be mean and say "L2read"


the only guilds higher level on his server are Over Raided (100) and Righteous Ire (88).

i was only including Orien.

and to Astra, i guess you missed the one (or was it two?) decked out in Abbot gear

[Ungood]

i don't mean this in a mean way, but i can't think of how to reword it this early in the morning, but perhaps you missed the "most patient person in DDO" line. :( nothing ruffles this guy. even the guy who decided to lumberjack the pillars onto the people trying to loot after the titan was dead didn't get more than a firm (but calm) "I'm strongly considering not allowing you in Titan anymore." most people would be foaming at the mouth. this is not the type of person who just up and quits. he's not my friend. i don't know him well enough for that. he's just the most well known triple-boxer with the most well known haggle bard on Orien. to lose someone like THAT... is gonna be a blow.

True this.

Many people learn their Abbot and Titan under his tutelage, I know I am one of them.

The guy is a legend on our server, and while I do not expect someone else to appreciate that, it is indicative that the direction that Turbine is taking with messing with what did not need to be messed with, is not being well received by the base that actually plays this game.

The thing here is that Hard Core players that got bored will still come back to check out new content, Discouraged casual players on the other hand, are not nearly as easy to get back.

[barecm]

Try jumping in late on one of the bigger games and tell me how lost you feel. Someone who has been playing this game 5+ years is certainly does not approach quests and raids the same way someone who has only played a month or so. It is nothing against DDO people, but human nature in general. Also, DDO is not the MMO for PVP. They have it to stamp it on the box for marketing, but it is the least supported/cared about feature for a majority of folks. Yes, each server has their crew of PVP'ers and that is fine, it is just not the majority.

[Chazzie]

Dear Xandariant,

It sounds like you hit that wall that e1 in DDO hits at some point & time. Hitting a wall for the 1st time is ruff you struggle between the love for DDO & how it has changed. This is a time where you need to walk away (Keeping all gear,coin & toons) give it 30~ 60 days & return with new eyes. If you just try it youll understand then I was right. It is the best advice I have been given & wish to pass it on to you....It has worked for countless friends of mine & its always nice to see them return.

Two points I would like to make NOT directed at Xandariant

#1~Vets vs New People ~

I understand peoples thoughts on Ubber Vets (TR Junkies) vs Vets vs New people ~ But what I think people dont take into consideration is there are now CountlesS !!!! of new people vs Vets & what is not publish is the kindness of Vets , be it Ubber or just Vets. I know for a fact that Vets still take people under there wing & share there xp of the game. It's just not published or passed along as it shouldnt or people would be begging for a touter. People need to hold themself in a certain way before someone will think of taking them under there wing. (For the record I myself in NO WAY am a vet/I'm just a player & yes I have tookin 7 new people under my wing & they all have past me & my abilities)(Also I hit that wall REAL HARD myself & walked away for 4 months once)

#2~ New People ~

About new people coming into DDO having a hard time is totally FALSE !!! ( I dont believe it )

When I stepped off the boat & ran down a alley , Jumping on a boat to Kobold island & was so owned lol. (With many years of Old School knowledge of AD&D & 2.0 that you can just throw right out the window lol) Thats HARD Times !!! Empty Harbor darn near at times with a chat window that NEVER moved , running around with my head cut off like a chicken with a Sword , Sheild , Armor & That was IT !!! Couldnt even get into the market place because I didnt have enough coin to bribe the gaurd at the gate of the market place, & I couldnt find the harbor master to talk to him (He use to be in his office back then) so I could do WW so I can get into the darn Market place LOL.....If it wasnt for the release of the monk class & help from Vets (Knowing I was new by just standing there looking like an idiot lol) I would still be in the harbor.

Today !!!! New people !!! Are on easy street they just dont know it. In the begining there hand is held on Korthos ~ They can do just a couple of Quests over a couple of times each and have some coin in there pocket & gear to boot, They start with back then I would call ubber gear or buy even more Ubber new gear right out of a STORE standing in there 1st real quest if they like to spend $$ on a game card....I Could go on & on .... But I think I made my Point :) (Not ranting just educating :) Much love here )

At LvL 8 Being a Dwarf barb when I pulled my 1st Flaming +1 dwarven axe I fell right out of my chair I so wanted a weapon with elemental anything on it roflol I was over the moon ;)

Well I hope this help at least one person ,I know its a wall of text but I could have wrote a book for this post rolol

Chazzie aka in game Krune :)

[LOOON375]

This game has changed in regard to new people just since I have been playing. I haven't been playing as long as some but have played for quite a while now.

The problem is the unintended consequences to the some of the changes. Meaning: How some people use those changes. New people be damned.

I was just getting into epic content a few months back until the epic changes. People usually require epic geared toons to run epic content. Ridiculous. You can't get epic gear unless you find people who are willing to run it with you.

Now you see LFMs requiring all sorts of silly stuff. Need GS to run Shroud. Since the last update it's gotten even worse. Veteran, well geared players are having trouble with the new shroud.

New player to shroud? Forget it.

You have to PUG to get towards the end content and to get the good gear. Changes to the game cause some people to make the right adjustments, while others turn into elitest jerks requiring people have the stuff that now can literally takes months, if not a year or two to get.

Im **** glad that most of my toons have green steel weapons and items because now the 3 newsest toons that I have sitting at level 17 (1st life) will now take fricken forever to properly equip them with GS. Yes the shroud is more difficult, but that's not the problem. The problem is how some "adjust" to the higher difficulty. I have yet to see an LFM up on Argo since the last update asking for lvl16 or higher. Most have been 18-20, 19-20, and even 20-20 to run normal shroud.

Want to equip a new melee with GS? It will now take even longer since melees are nolonger really needed, therefore some will choose to exclude melees.

"well if you don't like it, just create your own group". Not that simple anymore. I started and a ran a successful shroud yesterday and a wizard left the group for fear of faliure because I had a generous amount of melees in my group. hahaha

It's not the game changes that screw it up, it's how some people institute those changes. PUGGINg has been seriously hurt lately and new people be damned.

[katz]

i tried shroud hard last night. not a PUG. from a raid channel. on my bard.

at 18th, fully buffed, i'm just a hair shy of 500 HP. we didn't have an arcane, so i broke out Terror and ran the portal order i learned last life as a sorcerer (clearing portal trash = top kills, wooo. lol) . we breezed thru parts 1-3 like it was normal.

part 4 was a disaster. it started well enough. one person got blades chasing them around after a devil, and he couldn't quite get away. down by one. the rest of us take down the devils one by one no real problem. harry drops. we run in and start the beatdown. someone calls blades. i hop out then. not everyone did. some waited a bit more (i guess because the blades didn't *look* that close)... most of the ones who delayed, died. there went half the group. we regrouped, rallied, and took out round 2 of the devils. or tried to. i don't remember exactly at what point the last person dropped, but it happened reasonably quick after that. blades were everywhere, seemingly random. i got caught, zipped away with an 1/8 of a life bar left started healing myself and got caught from behind by another set.

[Chaos000]

Well, if you want to rule out any timing events because of lag potential, you don't leave much, do you?

Abbot suffered from timing events because of lag potential. To add to the challenge they also launched without the ability to chose which section each person was teleported.

Players don't mind grinding, but there are limits.

Remember when dragontouched armor runes effects were hidden?

Normal raids should be for the player who just got off the work, wanted to put a gimpy character on raid timer towards his 20th completion before hopping onto a character he just TR'ed to level him up. Waiting for a group to fill because healers are no longer willing to join because it is now more resource intensive due to the new changes is not my idea of fun.

Try running a no-epic or GS shroud run now on normal. It's just not going to happen

[bigolbear]

ok.. your wrong. Im usualy faily diplomatic on the forums, well atleast compared to real life but you are just wrong on many counts.

see that join date over there? well thats when i jumped ship on the EU servers and started completely fresh. no loot, no characters no plat, no twinkage. just knowledge and skill. I originaly started when the cap was 12. I started over from scratch, and it was fun. I didnt run into the dificulties your talking about because frankly DDO is way more about learned skill and knowlede than about gear. am I one of the chosen? not when i jumped ship i wasnt - got characters sitting on galanda now with enough shroud ingredients to sink a battle ship and more dragons scales than a typical juvanile dragon. I play on orien these days tho and reaquireing my stock was timeconsuming but not dificult.

DDO is more nooby freindly now than it was back when i started the first time. dungeon scalling and more recently guild ship buffs go a heck of a long way towards that, the rest is made up by MUCH better enhancements including these new fangled prestiges and MUCH better loot. (my +5 axiomatic greatsowrd of pure good was a prised possession at lvl 14, and many were jelous of it. I even remember when the threnal warblade - bog +5 weapon was ocnsidered good.)

The main issue i have with what your saying is that this game is simple enough solo or in a group when playing on NORMAL dificulty. if you cant handle that then theres casual mode i guess. I have real issues with people that assume a game should be balanced for them individualy. DDO has 4 dificulty settings, and guess what - if you cant complete a raid on epic as soon as it comes out then maybe thats a good thing. People need to get over them selves and accept that maybe elite/epic is not the mode for them at the current time. Despite a long term of playing this game I will hapily include my self here - There are many quests that i know im going to strugle with if playing them at lvl on harder settings, i guess the difference is i see it as something to aim for, not a problem.

Sure theres something every now and then that will throw you, you will miss a trick every so often even with plenty of experience. I find a good rant helps, and after you've got over the embarrasment you can adjust your tactics and go conquer.

personly i think the problem lies not in game balance but in peoples expectation that every one should be able to play on the tuffest setting.

[Vormaerin]

Veteran, well geared players are having trouble with the new shroud.



For the moment. It will take a few times before the timing and techniques get relearned (people used to die if they stayed in the blades in the old days). Then it will be back to farm mode.

Yeah, some players will be jerks and refuse to play with anyone who isn't uber geared. But that is a function of that person's nature, not the difficulty of the quest. Once the vets adjust, it'll be back to the same old.

Other posters seem to think that a raid on normal should involve snoozing with a beer in one hand while paying a mediocre character with your off hand. I think that a raid on any difficulty should involve actually playing with some skill and effort.

I also think that the people who are prophesying doom because of this are forgetting that going on raids regularly is a minority activity. If anyone is really being screwed here in the long run (which I'm not convinced), it is not the hard core or the casual players. The hard core types will definitely adjust to the renewed difficulty. The casual majority don't run raids to a significant degree anyway, so they aren't affected. The victims are that band of players who want to run raids regularly, but aren't really hard core. Maybe these soft core players won't adjust. Maybe they will. Its a little early to tell.

[azrael4h]

Abbot suffered from timing events because of lag potential. To add to the challenge they also launched without the ability to chose which section each person was teleported.

Players don't mind grinding, but there are limits.

Remember when dragontouched armor runes effects were hidden?

Normal raids should be for the player who just got off the work, wanted to put a gimpy character on raid timer towards his 20th completion before hopping onto a character he just TR'ed to level him up. Waiting for a group to fill because healers are no longer willing to join because it is now more resource intensive due to the new changes is not my idea of fun.

Try running a no-epic or GS shroud run now on normal. It's just not going to happen

The other day, I actually got tells on my FvS to come heal a Normal Shroud. Prior to U12, you'd have to play at some pretty off the wall hours to NOT easily get a cleric or fvs to drop into a Shroud group... or any other class for that matter. Even Rogues, Rangers, and Paladins, which are often the most discriminated against, could find a group without issue.

Prior to U12 peak times often had 2-3 Shroud groups forming, with more completing, just pug groups. Forget guild groups. Post I've seen 2-3 hours go by at peak times with no raid groups of any kind, including Shroud, being formed.

I've hit one Shroud run so far since U12. Every melee had LitIIs, and the arty gave them silver weapons. We called out for blades. Part 1 ran by rapidly, even if the wizard decided to pretend to lag out, and I'm not entirely used to running an Arcane in any raids, and don't really know the order (or for that matter, being a Sorcerer have the DC and Spell Pen to deal with the trash as easily). Part 2 was the smoothest I'd ever seen, even if the wizard was busy crafting a tier 1 item instead of helping. Part 3 I managed to run 1 water before everyone had done their puzzles and ran the water. It did cost me about 15 heal scrolls, however, healing myself and others along the way.

Part 4 was among the worst. Not even when the FvS once had "mouse issues", or the Cleric and FvS decided to stand there and do nothing was it this bad. The DPS was there; Harry was down to about an 1/8th I believe when we called out for blades. I burned through another 10 scrolls taking care of myself and others.

Half the raid group quit. All of us were complaining.

A guildy spent two hours before getting though a run that same day. According to him, every group was the same; complaining of the idiotic, incompetent changes made to appease a few basement dwellers who don't actually work.

I work 13 hours a day at a REAL job, I don't have time to **** away on a game that it has been decided that if you haven't already gotten your gear, you can't get it. I spend too many hours at work to earn the money that I invest into my entertainment to put up with sycophants trying to make less than a tenth of a percent of the playing population happy.

Whats worse is the ones whining that there's not enough challenge will not be running the Shroud. They have their GS, they just want to screw newer players and those who have a real life and a real job out of the only gear that anyone could get. They don't run Abbot, they got their gear. They don't run Reaver, or VoN on normal-elite, or DQ normal-elite, or any other raids other than maybe ToD (if they haven't gotten their rings there yet) and MA and LoB and the epics.

Must be epic geared/have GS for Tempest Spine Normal, L20 only. This is where the Devs want this game to go. You don't design a game for the massive minority; you go where the money is. And I know that the people supporting these changes are too few in number to support the costs of a single server, much less new content and bug fixes that the devs should have been working on instead of ruining the majority of players' game for them.

[Invalid_50]

trying to make ddo a "hardcore" game, is like painting flames on the sides of a pinto.

[azrael4h]

trying to make ddo a "hardcore" game, is like painting flames on the sides of a pinto.

Well, it's an accurate forecast of whats to come at least. :P

[hecate355]

That's crazy talk, right there! You see, CC was way more risk and reward at 25 than at 20. Easy to complete at 20 for 200 shards, way harder at 25 for 300 shards.

Yet there were lots of players who were complaining about not being able to complete at 25!

You know, it's not fair that that guy who played a lot longer than me and is better geared/skilled can complete a quest I can't.

There are always people who complain. About everything. Every update.

It's impossible to balance content for these people. No risk and no reward could ever satisfy them.

Infant

P.S.: I am not telling in any way that U12 is good/balanced/whatever. I just want to wait and see. Try several times and ask for advice before complaining.

its perfectly fine for a guy who is more skilled and has played longer to have better gear. you are not trying to tell everyone should be equal? you can deny the fact that some have bigger effort and they deserve to be better equipped than those who ddint.

think i dont know there are myriad of players out there with far superior chars and eq than i have? sure there are and i know it, does it bother me a lot? no not really, im fine being somewhere at middle, with no godly, yet still good gear/knowledge.

[Thrudh]

i don't mean this in a mean way, but i can't think of how to reword it this early in the morning, but perhaps you missed the "most patient person in DDO" line. :( nothing ruffles this guy.

Sorry, I think I win that contest... You won't ever see me leave over a change to one raid, especially 3 days after the change.

Give it time... and people will adapt.


he's just the most well known triple-boxer with the most well known haggle bard on Orien. to lose someone like THAT... is gonna be a blow.

Yeah, triple-boxing might be hard when you can't just turn on auto-attack and go make a sandwich... Maybe he should play ONE box...

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy yet.

[Orratti]

Well i will give you a piece of mind in here, how much you are wrong.

Elite/longitme players few millions plat to buy staff they need.
Those items that were not BTC, are BTA, so they just pass it by bank, other items are to be bought by plat or just passed - a lot of not end game gear is easily bought with plat. So if you want to tell me that newcomers and old timers have similar problem you are SO WRONG.

And from another point of view. Old timers know how to make a good strong, toons. They know how to make strong 1st live to grind for items for the end build. They wont have problems with meeting hp demands and they can craft (if they invested, but many do) GFL itesm, or have friends who will make IFL items, for low lvl instead of paying a lot of plat that new ppl don't have to buy shards for crafting.

So if you really want to tell me, that being new in DDO, with all that scaling and raising ppl demands, showing HP, spaying on a toons in my DDO makes it easy for new ppl. Go for it.

BTW I'm not saying only about Shroud that most ppl think, cause it is one of worst changes.
I speak about all changes since U10, and all is in first 2 posts i made, for those who can read with understanding.

I think it only leads to frustration of new ppl and mass migration to a better place.
Yet Turbine wants to sell packs to many ppl, so why do they scare ppl away?

Do you like shooting yourself in the foot before running? I guess Turbine does.

People overestimate the amount of gear and plat long time players have. I believe in order to support their arguments that things are soo unfair for them or the new player. I barely had 500k plat spread over 10 toons for many years if I even had that much. The rest of your point seems to be that there is a problem with new players having to learn anything. GFL items and +6 con items are readily available on the ah and charater building takes a little practice. We've all had to reroll at least once before we were satified that our toons were respectable and now you don't even have to reroll you can lesser or greater reincarnate if you choose.

Turbine please take these type of complaints with several grains of salt. This game was difficult at the beginning and yet most players that joined stuck it out until the character nerfs started pouring through. If those who are complaining now were here at or near the beginning they would have quit at the first wipe of the butcher's path or the low road. The only reason that this thread is on the first page still is the argumentitive nature of the op otherwise it would be on the 2nd page and well on it's way into obscurity as are all of the other shroud posts.

[Zenthalas]

OP, like the title it states, this game is difficult, easier than it used to be back when you got a negative to xp when you died, but still difficult. It takes time, patience and yes a little luck (read that as bull headed determination) to get geared and learn the game, it's not a hit 1,1,2,1,3,4 game like the major competitor is. This game takes some intelligence too, either be smart enough to figure out the tactics for quests and raids or be smart enough to learn them and listen. Point is it is not an easy button, the people who have kept this game and community going are willing to help, are you willing to listen? Doesn't seem like it. I spent YEARS learning this game's in's and out's, collecting plat, experimenting with characters. I went to a point where I gave everything away in my own made up event, everyone had a blast and got good gear. Then 6 months later I came back from ground zero, got myself leveled up and geared up all over again and 4 toons w/ maxed plat. How?? Because I had experiance and knew the game. Put in the time, earn your gear and plat and you''ll be fine, by the way I did this all while deployed 7 times to Iraq and Afghanistan, so as far as being a basement dweller w/ no life and no job... yeah... think again.

[mystafyi]

People overestimate the amount of gear and plat long time players have.

doubtful. I have almost every raid item on multiple toons, along with millions of plat and sellable items for when i run low. which ofc is often since i tr alot. (pot drinker ftw)
since i am on orien I am sure folks on older servers have way more shinies.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Think about Harry and his children! Before U12 Harry was losing every time - against any kind of 'heroes' who were able to crawl in the raid entrance.

Now he actually can be proud of himself when the work day is done. And no need to be embarrassed on the front of his kids. When Harry is feeling better, we are getting better rewards!

Players, don't think only yourselves! Think about the countless times of Harry losing. I heard some good news that his long last depression is starting to get better!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

Is all I have to say to that ;-)

[Xeraphim]

Nepotism.

Cronyism.

Elitism.

The devs forgot who their players are and want to keep the old elitist veterans around.

Primary account join date: April 2006. Banned for having opinions, regardless that they were implemented as game structure later.

I must assert that this "popularity system" is a terrible farce: only those that manage a specific form of humor gain "Reputation" on these forums. Many DDO systems are now like this, including the Auction House.

[bigolbear]

this is my 2nd pst on this thread.

After reading all of now which took a while I still stand by my statements made originaly regarding the dificuty of DDO in general for new players/casual players.

That being said tho i do think that if some of our more conciencious raid leaders - ie those that take noobies along, im thinking of a certain halfling pirate tripple boxer on orien, are having issues with the changes to the raids then they could use examining.

again tho Id like to stress, the typical new player/casual player isnt into raiding, epics or any of that jazz.

personly Id like all the raids in ddo to be reasonably accessable on normal, but they should all be a tough challenge for lvl 20's on elite/epic mode. And the rewards on those dificulties should be appropriate for end game. The current crisis is a step towards that goal I think and as with any change theres going to be a few bumps on the road, im sure we'll adapt, or turbine will.

regarding the shroud:
back when the cap was 16 we didnt have the DPS to one or 2 round harry, the blades hurt and the typical hp was a lot less than it is today. As things stood previously I thought it was an issue that any group of lvl 16s could reasonably expect to succeed at the shroud, and more of an issue that many of these people would choose not to finish to grind it over and over - esentialy abbusing a mechanic that was designed to allow players still learning the raid to get some useable raid loot from it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Nepotism.

Cronyism.

Elitism.

The devs forgot who their players are and want to keep the old elitist veterans around.

Primary account join date: April 2006. Banned for having opinions, regardless that they were implemented as game structure later.

I must assert that this "popularity system" is a terrible farce: only those that manage a specific form of humor gain "Reputation" on these forums. Many DDO systems are now like this, including the Auction House.

Oh, I have to spread some reputation around before giving you any more.

I tried to understand the point of this thread but I really struggled.

Some points from my experience:
1. It is super easy in this game for a new player to get ahead. Simply being around for an event is often a simple way to make millions of plat (mabar, festivals) or get easy epic gear (cove).
2. The community is very generous in all ways and it is always possible to learn what you don't know or get what you need if you are respectful, courteous and build a good reputation.

For my specific experience, I've just moved server. I arrived with nothing but found a nice guild willing to take me in and since then (despite no wealth or gear) I've managed to run some of the harder content in the game (eDA, eV6, LoB, hard ToD and more). In fact, all I have to say is; hey, who wants to come do elite tor with all dragons? (for example) and the guildies are all on board, who cares if we wipe.

My transition to Khyber hasn't been so positive because of my wealth or on account of being a chosen one. Rather I just try to be positive, always willing to learn and don't mind lending a hand and everything works out great.

My green bar, point by point, has been eked out through trying to help people on the forums consistently. Mind you, i get my share of gray and red ones too but that tells me that I'm doing something right.

[Synnestar35791]

As time & upgrades go....
the fleeing people continue to run....
maybe it's simply because on THIS game....
if it's fixed, don't broken it....
if it's working according to design, it's to easy & we can't have EVERYONE doing that...
Yeah the OP is right on...
Best part - all the people that are Elitist will down-play his thread, & heartfelt attempt to get things put into their correct perspectives...
but really now, it should take 5th life TR'z to do Shroud Normal...
Can't have the general public learning to fend for themselves & earning their Greensteel

[Exorcist]

I can understand your frustration in part about how the devs upgrade things without putting them into release notes etc. I believe you just need to re-invent your old strategies to your quest logic that you think is soo hard.

You also mention about what you believe are "The Chosen". Well, since I have been here off and on for the past 5-6 yrs I guess I would fit that bill; so let me respond constructively. You claim that the game, shroud (Which is what your mainly basing your frustrations on), and all the new content are too hard etc and that we "The Chosen" have it soo easy. I remember for one back when this game first came out, that a death = red bar. Now, you might not know this concept since your were only here for the past two years; but when you died back then you get an exp penalty. When the first raid came out (VoN) ppl would try to beat it in thier +4 armors and completely DE-LVL. This was back when if you had +5 Mithril fp was "god" and having 35-40 ac was awesome. Retribution was the greatest sword besides the very ultra rare vorpal or even rarer yet.. Vorpal Scim!

My point of that paragraph I guess, is "The Chosen" learned how to play in a game at which at that time didn't scale, had exp loss for deaths, and in really crappy gear. Now, do not get me wrong.. Most ppl have an assortment of shroud mats etc. But come on... Tons of those ppl make new toons and have to re-gear them. They still are able to complete these quest that your talking about as well. You have to keep everyone challenged to keep them playing. (LoB is unbeatable, atleast thats what I heard 1 month ago. And I have many epic completions now) If you want something easy.. Please feel free to exit stage right and there is a game called WoW..

[xandariant]

Sorry, I think I win that contest... You won't ever see me leave over a change to one raid, especially 3 days after the change.

Give it time... and people will adapt.
I'm sorry, but you won nothing with your lvl of understanding.
I guess rearing first post was too much for you, cause you definitely don't get the fact that a lot of ppl don’t leave game because of Shroud, but changes in may raids, constant nerfing that make you remake your toons and scaling up ppl demands that make this great once game unplayable for non-long-time-profasional-players.

Please take some effort in reading before you make it sound like someone is rage quitting.


People overestimate the amount of gear and plat long time players have. I believe in order to support their arguments that things are soo unfair for them or the new player. I barely had 500k plat spread over 10 toons for many years if I even had that much. The rest of your point seems to be that there is a problem with new players having to learn anything.

doubtful. I have almost every raid item on multiple toons, along with millions of plat and sellable items for when i run low. which ofc is often since i tr alot. (pot drinker ftw)
since i am on orien I am sure folks on older servers have way more shinies.
So true. The fact you didn’t get a lot doesn’t mean that other ppl don’t have a lot of resources.
Besides if you (Orratti) can't see that a lot of toon strength lays in gear, I'm sorry but did you really missed whole build section that in break have stated what gears are often mus to have or without what toon will wont really work?
I sure know that gear isn't everything, but I also know something that you miss. Toons strength is a combination of build and gear. So if you cut ppl off good gear leaving them AH items (not counting items worth massive amounts of plat) you get a sad truth: you have to have very good build.

We've all had to reroll at least once before we were satified that our toons were respectable and now you don't even have to reroll you can lesser or greater reincarnate if you choose.
And here you agree first made toons can't have great builds.
In other words, first toon that isn’t great, don’t have very good items just won't be that good to go for raid's like ever. So why should ppl bother to TR and correct build if game is no fun, and it centrally isn't fun when all ppl around you scram that you are too week and too noob to go in raids and starting recently in normal party with TRs.


The only reason that this thread is on the first page still is the argumentitive nature of the op otherwise it would be on the 2nd page and well on it's way into obscurity as are all of the other shroud posts.
This thread was started form the begin with to let some ppl know that not everyone is happy with all those sudden nerfs, scaling, changing ppls gears without asking, that turbine does. So sorry if you think that I will debate with everyone that I don't agree with. It is a poor judgment since I posted back like 4 times before for 8 pages of this thread.
Really so unfair judgment is often present from ppl that just don’t agree with someone and want to discredit someone in other ppl eyes.
Frankly a lot of ppl just agreed in here (40-50%) and many others just wrote similar threads in this forum, so be sure to visit those also and tell them how wrong they are to be disappointed in Turbine staff.


As time & upgrades go....
the fleeing people continue to run....
maybe it's simply because on THIS game....
if it's fixed, don't broken it....
if it's working according to design, it's to easy & we can't have EVERYONE doing that...
Yeah the OP is right on...
Best part - all the people that are Elitist will down-play his thread, & heartfelt attempt to get things put into their correct perspectives...
but really now, it should take 5th life TR'z to do Shroud Normal...
Can't have the general public learning to fend for themselves & earning their Greensteel
I agree with you so much...


I can understand your frustration in part about how the devs upgrade things without putting them into release notes etc. I believe you just need to re-invent your old strategies to your quest logic that you think is soo hard.

You also mention about what you believe are "The Chosen". Well, since I have been here off and on for the past 5-6 yrs I guess I would fit that bill; so let me respond constructively. You claim that the game, shroud (Which is what your mainly basing your frustrations on), and all the new content are too hard etc and that we "The Chosen" have it soo easy. I remember for one back when this game first came out, that a death = red bar. Now, you might not know this concept since your were only here for the past two years; but when you died back then you get an exp penalty. When the first raid came out (VoN) ppl would try to beat it in thier +4 armors and completely DE-LVL. This was back when if you had +5 Mithril fp was "god" and having 35-40 ac was awesome. Retribution was the greatest sword besides the very ultra rare vorpal or even rarer yet.. Vorpal Scim!
Again I respect you for a very good constructive totally different point of view buy you wrote it maturely. I really respect that.

I know what you are talking about. I wasn't in that time but I feel it from what you tell that this game was very hard. But did that go with ppl demands, sniffing in myddo and all other stuff that are present now?
If it did, just tell me how many ppl just left then.

I think that DDO going F2P was a move to make ppl come here and have fun together. Yet now with scaling, demanding and greed in the new shop items, those ppl will just go, and a lot of them (many not even going to write it in forums) just left.
So instead of getting more cash from more ppl having fun in DDO we get less ppl, and more expensive prices. In the end Turbine looses what they gained and were so proud of – people.


My point of that paragraph I guess, is "The Chosen" learned how to play in a game at which at that time didn't scale, had exp loss for deaths, and in really crappy gear. Now, do not get me wrong.. Most ppl have an assortment of shroud mats etc. But come on... Tons of those ppl make new toons and have to re-gear them. They still are able to complete these quest that your talking about as well. You have to keep everyone challenged to keep them playing. (LoB is unbeatable, atleast thats what I heard 1 month ago. And I have many epic completions now) If you want something easy.. Please feel free to exit stage right and there is a game called WoW..
Yeah. World of Walking :D.
I have been there in a playable demo up to lvl 20 and aside of annoying quests that are just dumb and a lot of walking by foot, animals later or so I read, but I'm not impressed.

I just bought Guild Wars 1 for the amount of new outrageous price of new pack and I'm happy I didn't spent that money on greedy DDO pack policy that just started with scaling prices way too much (1495TP for 4 maps and few different assignments – I won't pay for that.)
I kinda see that turbine just sold with new pack with Artificer (supposed to be free) as a boundle, 1495TP = 550TP (Lammania price and reasonable one) + 995TP (Artificer class) + (-50TP discount for buying 2 items).
I have to say Turbine for that wont see my money aside from leaving game and I really wanted to buy challanges to see them before I will go.

BTW I can't wait for GW2 (look interview in You Tube), that will make a really playable MMO to have fun with my firends. For now i will get to know the world in part 1.

[hecate355]

last 3-4 pug shrouds we did at normal, after the update all succeeded, there were deaths sure, but its irrelevant.

do i know what im doing? maybe... did those people? quite possible.. am i god like with all the juicy eq? i really doubt i fall into that criteria.

and there were multiple simultanous shroud pugs up at prime time yesterday. i dont really see anything overwhelming regarding to shroud, except maybe lag, which can turn it into gambling.

im still convinced bunch of random, mostly first life people can complete normal shroud just fine. maybe its not autopilot run anymore and it actually CAN go wrong again if crucial players in group havent paid attention to essential things that make the result.

if only thing you gained from levels 10-17 was the exp that leveled you then yes, its possible you arent going to finish shroud, especially if such people stack up in your pug. but should they be able? thats the most essential question around here.

so i ask back in clear and short. SHOULD A PERSON WHO IS TOTAL PILEON AND HASNT PAID ANY ATTENTION TO HIS CHAR OR PLAY STYLE DESERVE EASY SHROUD COMPLETION? my opinion is no, he doesent. not saying such people are dominant or anything, but selection has to work.

the heck, add casual mode to raids with greatly reduced difficulty and rewards, let em have a glimpse if they feel that way, let em band together and try, i dont really mind. but at real runs, there HAS to be criterias to be met

[fn_Chopper]

If you don't like the way things are going, fine, you don't have to stick around, but don't waste your time complaining to those that don't have a problem with the game and are willing to make the effort to relearn how to play old content.

Old content? relearn? complaining 'to those'?

Sir, you are a master and deserving of my most humbling respect.

[zwiebelring]

SHOULD A PERSON WHO IS TOTAL PILEON AND HASNT PAID ANY ATTENTION TO HIS CHAR OR PLAY STYLE DESERVE EASY SHROUD COMPLETION?
THis is the whole problem. Let me point out sdome words:

*total pileon*

*not paid attention*

*deserve*

*easy*

Where does it come from that anyone has any right to put himself in that way and judge other people in a game? Yes, you may pay for he game but frankly, you are paying for a service Turbine provides and not on the people Turbine may or may not attract with this service. I think there should be some more respect towards people. It is a hobby at most, if it s in healthy conditions but it is not something anyone has a right on in general.

And what are the exact definitions of *paying attention to the charater and playstyle*? This is a whole replacement phrase for: search the frums, indulge into the game like a nerd and forget anything else around you. Learn the game mechanics till you are dreaming of it.

Do people have the right to claim this? No. But do people who pay for the game produced by the developers have the contracted customer's right for some fun at their hobby or free time and quality service? I think yes. And I think the real challenges should stay on toon = questlevel as well as on hard and/or elite but not anywhere in normal on at least 3 lvl.s higher than intended quest level. And here is where the devs broke it. Everything should stay easy on normal or better: there where you have to grind your head out. For a casual gamer that starts at Shroud normally. 20 average completions for 1 item... 2 months.

The prereq.s made by leaders for normal raids should stay at heavy fortification at most, if you want to have some detail (since most of everything else can be done by magic). Prereq.s should concern things easy to obtain for normal difficulty on lvl. in order to have the chance for harder challenges later on. Not any more. The community has to be selective where it shouldn't matter. And there is the problem.

[noinfo]

Nepotism.

Cronyism.

Elitism.

The devs forgot who their players are and want to keep the old elitist veterans around.

Primary account join date: April 2006. Banned for having opinions, regardless that they were implemented as game structure later.

I must assert that this "popularity system" is a terrible farce: only those that manage a specific form of humor gain "Reputation" on these forums. Many DDO systems are now like this, including the Auction House.

So the hard core players don't deserve something as well? Especially since they are the ones likely to remain and weathered the time of no content.

Most of this complaining is based around shroud, now if you were around when it first came out like you said, you would be aware that it was designed with level 16 and under in mind even if the raid itself was considered level 17. Those early runs were not easy as many of us were ungeared, there were no pre's and twink toys were the best random loot you could get. This raid was done by level 13 non TR's amazing isn't it? Once people started getting gear it became a whole lot easier and what do you know, that raid was being beat on elite (though not done often due to no extra rewards). My early characters earned their greensteel unlike many who joined latter as did many of the older veterans. Do I have a problem with others getting the easy completions? Not at all, however the fact that they decided to make the raid actually the level 17 raid it was supposed to be relevant for the state of the game now does not make me sad in anyway. Now it is possible that normal blade damage is higher than it should be and I really believe that blades should be evadeable (have only run elite so far) but people coming in here and telling long term players that they "Had it easy" would have been amusing to see run in the original shroud environment without their toys and PRE's.

My summary:
Shroud was never really designed as a level 17 raid as there were no level 17 characters.
Shroud as it was, was completed by toons at level 13, though I believe hordo was carried through at level 1 or some silly level.
It is possible that the ballance for normal shroud is not there but that they made it harder is certainly not a problem.

[hecate355]

THis is the whole problem. Let me point out sdome words:

*total pileon*

*not paid attention*

*deserve*

*easy*

Where does it come from that anyone has any right to put himself in that way and judge other people in a game? Yes, you may pay for he game but frankly, you are paying for a service Turbine provides and not on the people Turbine may or may not attract with this service. I think there should be some more respect towards people. It is a hobby at most, if it s in healthy conditions but it is not something anyone has a right on in general.

And what are the exact definitions of *paying attention to the charater and playstyle*? This is a whole replacement phrase for: search the frums, indulge into the game like a nerd and forget anything else around you. Learn the game mechanics till you are dreaming of it.

Do people have the right to claim this? No. But do people who pay for the game produced by the developers have the contracted customer's right for some fun at their hobby or free time and quality service? I think yes. And I think the real challenges should stay on toon = questlevel as well as on hard and/or elite but not anywhere in normal on at least 3 lvl.s higher than intended quest level. And here is where the devs broke it. Everything should stay easy on normal or better: there where you have to grind your head out. For a casual gamer that starts at Shroud normally. 20 average completions for 1 item... 2 months.

The prereq.s made by leaders for normal raids should stay at heavy fortification at most, if you want to have some detail (since most of everything else can be done by magic). Prereq.s should concern things easy to obtain for normal difficulty on lvl. in order to have the chance for harder challenges later on. Not any more. The community starts being selective where it shouldn't matter. And there is the problem.

those words were exaggeration to get the point across, im not calling anyone pileone. Yes everyone pays for the service and gets it as well, necessary means are right there

with 'pay attention' i didnt mean some uber forums/builds search fu. what i did mean is when you get from lets say level 10 to 17, when its suitable for you to run shroud, you should have picked up enough knowledge and equipment to not be a said 'pileon'

i guess what im trying to tell is that you cant build ddo around lowest common denominator, you cant set this as global criteria about difficulty of things.

as for the 2 months you mentioned, i more less 'quarantee' that after month or two it WILL be routine, even for casual player. only thing that really changed at shroud is, that you cant ignore blades anymore. boss hps actually got reduced at normal.

oh and realistic pre reqs are still untouched. it was ~300+ hps and heavy fort befor and still is now. in the shrouds i ran and succeeded i was around 340ish hps. this is not unreachable height to anyone. yes both chars were selfhealing. the balance remains the same tho, you can either have decent bunch of hps and melee or slightly less, but be selfhealing and ranged/nuker.

[Vormaerin]

The devs created the shroud to be a difficult raid. It became a cakewalk raid due to changes in the game since it was released. The devs then adjusted the difficult from simplistic to moderate, but not as hard as it used to be.

Now people are claiming they are entitled to cakewalk difficulty and anything else is unfair, disciminatory, and going to ruin DDO. Well, I don't believe they are right.

They are entitled by their money to play the game the developers create. That's it. "Having fun" is their responsibility, not the developers. If you can't have fun in DDO without running the Shroud and you can't have fun running a Shroud that is moderately challenging...then you shouldn't be playing DDO. Because the devs are clearly trying to sell a game where the Shroud is moderately challenging on normal.

[Infant]

lot of ppl don’t leave game because of Shroud, but changes in may raids

Many raids? Like edragon which is more fun now? Also less strain on the healers (if played properly), pot-wise, if I understand it correctly. Or which other raids got so much tougher?



So true. The fact you didn’t get a lot doesn’t mean that other ppl don’t have a lot of resources.
Plat is not hard to get in this game, when you are lvl 16+. I haven't TR'd yet and have about 2 million pp across my toons. This is without putting things on AH for months now -- I earned my plat during the both last Risia events. My GF got way more plat than me from carefully selling things on AH. Again, we are both first-lifers. There are guides on how to make plat. If a lvl 20 person tells me he has not enough plat for a +6 con item or Heal scrolls for critical situations, he is not really trying...



So if you cut ppl off good gear leaving them AH items (not counting items worth massive amounts of plat) you get a sad truth: you have to have very good build.
You can perfectly play this game with AH items. I soloed my way to lvl 17, almost entirely on elite with only AH stuff and was playing at cap with no epic gear and no GS, except items from CC. You can play (read: contribute) easier epics without GS and raid gear. You can cover basic gear from AH or from new quests with very nice items and high drop rates (Droam Chain, Madness Chain). Of course, you can't do all these things if you build and play stupidly and refuse to listen/read.



And here you agree first made toons can't have great builds.
Here I agree and disagree. Of course, having a good build isnt about first-life or even 32 points (except maybe rogues and pallies, dunno). Good build is about going to the forums and reading stuff. First-toon experience can be very tough if you don't do this. This is why Turbine should redesign the premade paths along the lines of Tihocan's builds. Make them solid, basic and functional builds for new players.



sniffing in myddo and all other stuff that are present now?
Sniffing in myddo for basic quests and raids will, unfortunately, always exist. No matter how easy or hard the game is. Admittedly, we had some insane requirements (at least 500 HP :eek:) for normal Shroud in last few days, but that is because people are scared of the blades and have to work out a strategy. It will disappear after few weeks, except the unconfident leaders who always required high HP for easy quests.



Yet now with scaling, demanding and greed in the new shop items
Scaling, if you mean rebalancing the game to match the power creep, is necessary. Greed is very bad, I agree. I also think that the new pack is extremely overpriced. But, I think, this isn't something the devs are in charge of. This is Turbine marketing making such decisions. And they made a few very bad decisions in the last 12 months, IMHO. But I am not a marketing person myself OTOH... However I tend to see it this way: I don't like the TP prices of adventure packs/races/classes etc.? Then I just pay the subscription as I would have with any other game out there.

Infant

[Vormaerin]

You can perfectly play this game with AH items. I soloed my way to lvl 17, almost entirely on elite with only AH stuff and was playing at cap with no epic gear and no GS, except items from CC. You can play (read: contribute) easier epics without GS and raid gear. You can cover basic gear from AH or from new quests with very nice items and high drop rates (Droam Chain, Madness Chain). Of course, you can't do all these things if you build and play stupidly and refuse to listen/read.



I started a new character on a new server and its perfectly feasible to outfit one without lots of money or even using the AH. I don't have a lot of money by any reasonable standard because I don't "Farm" for loot and I don't buy/sell on the AH.

Granted, I know what things I should be keeping an eye out for, but its not hard to get the basics in the lvl 13-17 range. Getting them at the absolute earliest is expensive and difficult, but that's before you are worried about raiding anyway.

The biggest difficulty for new players is not getting the basic necessity gear, its knowing what gear to get. Its easy to not realize how important Heavy fort is compared to Moderate Fort or to think SR or AC are cool for longer than they are actually effective.

[zwiebelring]

They are entitled by their money to play the game the developers create. That's it. "Having fun" is their responsibility, not the developers. If you can't have fun in DDO without running the Shroud and you can't have fun running a Shroud that is moderately challenging...then you shouldn't be playing DDO. Because the devs are clearly trying to sell a game where the Shroud is moderately challenging on normal.

This can be turned and where is the gain? Anyway there are many other options to have fun in the game. The fact that I like to have a cakewalk in Shroud is not a matter of fun. Shroud stopped being fun for me after the 3rd time and became a mandatory GS mat run in order to be able to pug a lot high lvl. content. Now you have to work for another mandatory thing and there goes the least bit of fun for this quest.

By the way I think they should remove casual difficulty from all Reaver's Refuge flagging quests, people seem to run it only on casual for having a cakewalk if you watch LFMs.

[Vormaerin]

By the way I think they should remove casual difficulty from all Reaver's Refuge flagging quests, people seem to run it only on casual for having a cakewalk if you watch LFMs.

Casual has reduced loot. :) The only thing people running those quests are getting is flagging. If the devs didn't think that was appropriate, they'd make casual ineligible for quest flagging. That's the point. The devs are responsible for making the game and setting the difficulty. Ideally, they'll find a sweet spot that maximizes the number of people who enjoy the content.

Sometimes they'll err on the side of too hard or too easy. The early panic responses to the changes aren't really very useful in determining if they did in this case. It'll take a few weeks to get sorted out into feedback that's actually useful.

The shroud had been hard content, but it had become easy content. They adjusted things so put it somewhere in the middle.

The changes to the Shroud made it less fun for some people and more fun for other people. And had no effect at all on the majority of players, because the majority of DDO players don't raid to any significant degree anyway.

[grgurius]

Gosh. I'm a new player and didn't realize I was supposed to hate everything this much. :)

Nah, you should be enjoying yourself, exploring the game. Then one day, when you consider yourself wronged by the Turbine just because they didn't base an entire update on your play style, you'll come here complaining in the name of the new players.

[hecate355]

Casual has reduced loot. :) The only thing people running those quests are getting is flagging. If the devs didn't think that was appropriate, they'd make casual ineligible for quest flagging. That's the point. The devs are responsible for making the game and setting the difficulty. Ideally, they'll find a sweet spot that maximizes the number of people who enjoy the content.

Sometimes they'll err on the side of too hard or too easy. The early panic responses to the changes aren't really very useful in determining if they did in this case. It'll take a few weeks to get sorted out into feedback that's actually useful.

The shroud had been hard content, but it had become easy content. They adjusted things so put it somewhere in the middle.

The changes to the Shroud made it less fun for some people and more fun for other people. And had no effect at all on the majority of players, because the majority of DDO players don't raid to any significant degree anyway.

flagging AND bag full of runes, just saying :)

[Infant]

nah, you should be enjoying yourself, exploring the game. Then one day, when you consider yourself wronged by the turbine just because they didn't base an entire update on your play style, you'll come here complaining in the name of the new players.

+1

[Infant]

mandatory GS mat run in order to be able to pug a lot high lvl. content.

Which high level content requires GS to run? Or did I misunderstand you?

Infant

[wax_on_wax_off]

Which high level content requires GS to run? Or did I misunderstand you?

Infant

Got to say, I'm going to be spending a fair amount of time in Shroud for my recent palemaster. Let's see:
Conc-opp HP goggles, tier 2 currently (come on LDS' ...)
Triple positive SP accessory (gloves? But 7 fingered for UMD ...)
Cold absorb stick (kama for a future possible monk splashed TR?)
Exceptional cold resist boots(?)

Last 2 for tanking shadows on elite of course. Already managed it on hard without any gear whatsoever but figure that a little bit of gear be prudent for elite. Tier 2 on the second two items is fine of course.

Is this stuff required for higher level content? Yes, I'd say you need the bottom 2 for elite shadows, you need the 2nd one for any content that stretches your SP (eDA for example) and you need the first one for anywhere that 500 damage disintegrates are being thrown around (elite reavers, even).

Sigh, back to vale flagging quests for me ...

[grgurius]

Got to say, I'm going to be spending a fair amount of time in Shroud for my recent palemaster. Let's see:
Conc-opp HP goggles, tier 2 currently (come on LDS' ...)
Triple positive SP accessory (gloves? But 7 fingered for UMD ...)
Cold absorb stick (kama for a future possible monk splashed TR?)
Exceptional cold resist boots(?)

Last 2 for tanking shadows on elite of course. Already managed it on hard without any gear whatsoever but figure that a little bit of gear be prudent for elite. Tier 2 on the second two items is fine of course.

Is this stuff required for higher level content? Yes, I'd say you need the bottom 2 for elite shadows, you need the 2nd one for any content that stretches your SP (eDA for example) and you need the first one for anywhere that 500 damage disintegrates are being thrown around (elite reavers, even).

Sigh, back to vale flagging quests for me ...

Do you need all those items - no, are they useful - yes.
That's the difference right there, you only need what you decide you need.

[zwiebelring]

Which high level content requires GS to run? Or did I misunderstand you?

Infant
Every hard + elite content you need at least a bossbeater. Other than luck, you have to rely on Cannith or GS item whereas GS was the easiest way. Yeah okay, lets restrict it to melee classes.

Casters may want to have their Conc. Opp. for sp conservation. Anyway, it is not normal content.


Casual has reduced loot.
Yes, but we all know that everybody is running Prey On The Hunter for loot right? ;).

[Infant]

Every hard + elite content you need at least a bossbeater. Other than luck, you have to rely on Cannith or GS item whereas GS was the easiest way. Yeah okay, lets restrict it to melee classes.

Casters may want to have their Conc. Opp. for sp conservation. Anyway, it is not normal content.


Sorry, I misunderstood you. I was thinking normal content. Since you mentioned PuGging...

However, with Cannith Crafting, I don't see decent Bossbeaters being a problem. In our guild, I know at least two people offering crafting services to strangers (co-puggers mostly) for free, so this is one huge positive aspect of Cannith crafting (however strange and unbalanced some recipes seem to be).

In easier epic quests and hard (and actually I would say elite) Amrath quests, you don't even need GS HP items, if you play as a team, imho.
I am not the most knowledgeable person about elite and epic high-level raids, however, so can't say much here.

What I am trying to say, you don't need GS stuff to play most quests on elite, raids on normal and easier epics. This is my first-hand experience.

You need something only if you decide that you need it.

The only grind in this game I am really upset about is flagging grind for ToD and Abbot. Very bad, but an entirely different story.

Infant

[Ungood]

Got to say, I'm going to be spending a fair amount of time in Shroud for my recent palemaster. Let's see:
Conc-opp HP goggles, tier 2 currently (come on LDS' ...)
Triple positive SP accessory (gloves? But 7 fingered for UMD ...)
Cold absorb stick (kama for a future possible monk splashed TR?)
Exceptional cold resist boots(?)

Last 2 for tanking shadows on elite of course. Already managed it on hard without any gear whatsoever but figure that a little bit of gear be prudent for elite. Tier 2 on the second two items is fine of course.

Is this stuff required for higher level content? Yes, I'd say you need the bottom 2 for elite shadows, you need the 2nd one for any content that stretches your SP (eDA for example) and you need the first one for anywhere that 500 damage disintegrates are being thrown around (elite reavers, even).

Sigh, back to vale flagging quests for me ...

I liked reading this list of items you are questing for. It's like this long shopping list of grind items.

[Infant]

I liked reading this list of items you are questing for. It's like this long shopping list of grind items.

Yes, grind is bad, but you don't need all these items to simply play and enjoy (as in contribute and not be carried through a quest) this game.

Infant

[firegood]

Come on guys, shroud normal is not that hard. It's still pugged daily, without ridiculous gear checks. We even 1 round it pug still on part 4. If you kill the devils one at a time you won't get low hp people dying instantly at the beginning. Infact, it's more interesting now instead of just spamming divine punishment, comet fall, and free sp searing lights I actually have to heal now too. Although one thing that kind of made me laugh is that my first eChrono pug after patch seemed easier than my first normal shroud run, haha.

Maybe Sarlona has good pugs? Seems like I hear the opposite sometimes though. I just don't see why people are saying like normal shroud is inaccessible now. You don't need anything other than lootgen gear to run normal shroud.

I am by no means a geared player either(my character's gear is pretty bad), although I could definitely be considered an experienced MMO player.

[pSINNa]

To the OP, maybe a break eh?

I came across a new player approx 6 month ago, my TR buddy met him through a friend, and he started to run with us on our endless TR trainwrecks.

He didn't say a lot, and seemed to take the game a bit more seriously then we did (we've kinda hit a spot were we are past a certain level and and are cruising, if we really want something we know how to get it, if we can be bothered, but mostly we just mosey through life after life slowly going for the abritrary goal we've set ourselves).

I watched him hit the game with the sort of dedication i had a few years back, when i was determined to establish a "repuation" for being a solid player, thereby assuring access to groups and raids i wanted, whenever they were being run.

In less then 6 months this guy has gone from a raw greeny to a player with toons and equipment i kind of envy. He's in what most people see as the the 'premier' guild on my server now, and i've come to respect his opinion on most matters of build and gearing, strategy and quest/raid knowledge.

It took him 6 months to do more then i've done in over 2 years. He is a powergamer. He put in the time, he was dedicated to a fault, and i don't begrudge him his "game success".

If we're talking about the game shutting out new players from being in that top tier of play, it just isn't so.

It just takes a lot of work, it always did, it probably always will.

I put in a massive amount of time and work (i keep saying work, but really, it was a hell of a lot of fun, rising to a challenge is fun ya know?) in my first year playing, and then maybe not so much time and work since, but i got where i wanted to be, and i'm slowly getting where i've decided the "new fun" is with my characters now.

There is no real lockout, there is no real shortcut, and you can do it if you really want that from the game, no one will stop you.

My two cents.

Coit out~


(ps. i cried with most on the forums about the changes to the raids, primarily shroud after u12, but now, i kinda like it, rising to the challenge ya know? It's a funny old game this one xD)

[Ungood]

I watched him hit the game with the sort of dedication i had a few years back, when i was determined to establish a "repuation" for being a solid player, thereby assuring access to groups and raids i wanted, whenever they were being run.

In less then 6 months this guy has gone from a raw greeny to a player with toons and equipment i kind of envy. He's in what most people see as the the 'premier' guild on my server now, and i've come to respect his opinion on most matters of build and gearing, strategy and quest/raid knowledge.

I enjoyed this story, because it showed quite a bit of truth, and the first is not so much "new player" but "Casual Player"

Look at your friend: He did not come here to "play a game and have some fun". he came here to climb to the top, and thus he focused on getting a good rep for himself, this was beyond just questing, he focused on being known as a solid player, did his "homework", and treated a game like it was a Paid Project, not just a job. he was driven to be in the "top guilds, and thus focused on being solid and good player, ergo, rubbing the elbows of the right people to get into the whole high end raiding scene.

Good for him. That is a great thing to do. However, that is exactly how a "lock out" works. It is built off the premise that someone has to 'know the right people" and "Be in the right groups" to get access to the "good stuff".

And the only way to make this happen is to make 'Where the good stuff is" inaccessible to the people not in the right social groups. And in DDO the only way to make that happen is to make raids and quests out of the reach of the casual pug.

Which, anyone but me notice, all the people happy with the change are vets, who are also bragging about all the other raids they have done.

[Vormaerin]

Which, anyone but me notice, all the people happy with the change are vets, who are also bragging about all the other raids they have done.

No one else has noticed this because its not true.

What you seem to ignore is that the true casual players don't raid much in the first place. Most of the people playing this game are just running quests and they aren't crying about not having greensteel nipple rings and all the rest of it.

One of the guilds I'm in (the one on my sig character) is entirely made of genuinely casual players. Everyone (except me) has kids. Sometimes one of the guy's 8 yr old son plays with us. We have 'oops, child issue' afks and all the usual stuff like that.

I think I'm the only one in the guild who has done any raids besides Chronosphere and Tempest Spine. They may play 5 or 10 hours a week, kids allowing, but no one is calculating xp/minute or weeping about gear they don't have. Obviously, not one of them cared a whit that the shroud is harder than it was when I mentioned it to them.

Fact is, the majority of DDO players are like them. There's the hard core players who do what's necessary to have the best gear. They are a small, but vocal minority. And then there's the slightly less small "middle class" of players who want to have the bad ass gear, but don't have the time/skill/inclination/whatever to do things that are really hard or grindy (by DDO's feeble standards of grind).

*IF* the shroud proves too hard to pug on normal (which I do not believe will be the case), then its that small middle class that is hurt. But I think the hardcore will figure out the new shroud quickly and then they 'trauma lfms' going on right now will return to normal.

But, seriously, if you are raiding often enough to think you are going to make multiple greensteel items, you aren't a "casual" player.

[Infant]

Which, anyone but me notice, all the people happy with the change are vets, who are also bragging about all the other raids they have done.

No. Not all of them are vets.

Infant

[nibel]

oh and realistic pre reqs are still untouched. it was ~300+ hps and heavy fort befor and still is now. in the shrouds i ran and succeeded i was around 340ish hps. this is not unreachable height to anyone. yes both chars were selfhealing. the balance remains the same tho, you can either have decent bunch of hps and melee or slightly less, but be selfhealing and ranged/nuker.

340? Overpowered. My haggle crafter bard (http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/amossa/) (aka: all cannith DM, plus skill focus haggle, plus negociator. Her only "true" feats is empower healing and extend) joined a pug yesterday at level 17, and with ~280 HP and zero fortification, was one of the few to stay alive until the end. Yep, blades hurts a lot and I had to keep running all the time to avoid massive damage. But it's doable.

For melees, calling for 300+ HP isn't an issue.

[Ungood]

No. Not all of them are vets.

Infant

Well I know I read a few posts with lines like: "I finally have a reason to do shroud again" this implying having done shroud to the point that it got boring to do it, and, in my sampling, even after a few shrouds, you're still just learning the whole process.

In the same token, I don't recall any posts with "I have never done shroud, but I am looking forward to how much harder they have made it"

But then again, I have not read all the posts. So my sampling is limited in that regard.

[Ungood]

No one else has noticed this because its not true.

What you seem to ignore is that the true casual players don't raid much in the first place. Most of the people playing this game are just running quests and they aren't crying about not having greensteel nipple rings and all the rest of it.

One of the guilds I'm in (the one on my sig character) is entirely made of genuinely casual players. Everyone (except me) has kids. Sometimes one of the guy's 8 yr old son plays with us. We have 'oops, child issue' afks and all the usual stuff like that.

I think I'm the only one in the guild who has done any raids besides Chronosphere and Tempest Spine. They may play 5 or 10 hours a week, kids allowing, but no one is calculating xp/minute or weeping about gear they don't have. Obviously, not one of them cared a whit that the shroud is harder than it was when I mentioned it to them.

Fact is, the majority of DDO players are like them. There's the hard core players who do what's necessary to have the best gear. They are a small, but vocal minority. And then there's the slightly less small "middle class" of players who want to have the bad ass gear, but don't have the time/skill/inclination/whatever to do things that are really hard or grindy (by DDO's feeble standards of grind).

*IF* the shroud proves too hard to pug on normal (which I do not believe will be the case), then its that small middle class that is hurt. But I think the hardcore will figure out the new shroud quickly and then they 'trauma lfms' going on right now will return to normal.

But, seriously, if you are raiding often enough to think you are going to make multiple greensteel items, you aren't a "casual" player.


I am a profound lover of people who put 'facts' in their posts about the demographic of the game.

I wonder, where have you gleaned these facts to know what the majority of the game population falls, much less the additional break down among the hard core and as you put it. Middle Class.

I would love to check these official numbers myself. Unless if course these are pure phantasmal facts, concocted by your limited sampling of the DDO community.

Because, you see my sampling seems to deduce that far more of the game base is moderate players then true casual or hard core.

[hecate355]

340? Overpowered. My haggle crafter bard (http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/amossa/) (aka: all cannith DM, plus skill focus haggle, plus negociator. Her only "true" feats is empower healing and extend) joined a pug yesterday at level 17, and with ~280 HP and zero fortification, was one of the few to stay alive until the end. Yep, blades hurts a lot and I had to keep running all the time to avoid massive damage. But it's doable.

For melees, calling for 300+ HP isn't an issue.

oh yea im one big badass drow and i happend to be 3 levels higher than you are, so i suppose im overpowered :)
and yea everything is possible, people have run like that befor too and brag that nothing happened. the fact remains same, if something happends it happends rather quick :P

ps. after all, what do people want from bards... songs, after that you can die as much as you want! :D

[Infant]

In the same token, I don't recall any posts with "I have never done shroud, but I am looking forward to how much harder they have made it"


Would be strange to see such posts from people who never ran a Shroud, no? Would be quite ridiculous in fact. I don't judge content I never ran, regardless of what Release Notes/Forumites say.



I am a profound lover of people who put 'facts' in their posts about the demographic of the game.

I wonder, where have you gleaned these facts to know what the majority of the game population falls, much less the additional break down among the hard core and as you put it. Middle Class.


This from someone didn't hesitate to state that "All the people who are happy about the changes to shroud are vets, who are also bragging about the other raids they completed". A statement which is clearly wrong, which is obviuos from just reading through this thread.

If we want to talk facts, we can talk facts -- i.e. state our own experience, since we don't have official statistics. This is not happening here.

Infant

[Vormaerin]

I am a profound lover of people who put 'facts' in their posts about the demographic of the game.

I wonder, where have you gleaned these facts to know what the majority of the game population falls, much less the additional break down among the hard core and as you put it. Middle Class.

I would love to check these official numbers myself. Unless if course these are pure phantasmal facts, concocted by your limited sampling of the DDO community.

Because, you see my sampling seems to deduce that far more of the game base is moderate players then true casual or hard core.

I assert it as fact because it was stated by Turbine people some years ago and because its true of pretty much all MMOs. But you don't have to accept it if you don't want to. I certainly don't have a detailed demographic study to hand over.

However, people always overestimate the number of players doing the top end, difficult, or group based content in games like this. It reminds me of a dev chat in Neverwinter Nights, a game known primariliy for its multiplayer and downloadable player made content. THe forumites were pretty close to 100% users of that stuff, but at one point a dev commented that 60% of the people who'd played the game had never downloaded a single thing for it.

Again, not "proof" of anything but it is an interesting example of how the forum community differs from the actual player base.

[Urjak]

340? Overpowered. My haggle crafter bard (http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/amossa/) (aka: all cannith DM, plus skill focus haggle, plus negociator. Her only "true" feats is empower healing and extend) joined a pug yesterday at level 17, and with ~280 HP and zero fortification, was one of the few to stay alive until the end. Yep, blades hurts a lot and I had to keep running all the time to avoid massive damage. But it's doable.

For melees, calling for 300+ HP isn't an issue.

During the ancient days of level cap 16, I completed shroud with 210-220 hp (with heavy fort though) without dieing (at least more often then with dieing^^) .... I guess THAT is no longer possible ;p ... apart from that, my shroud lfms are now 400+ hp for melees, 350+ hp for casters/divines ... not gonna take the risk of those squishies dieing. ... I know that ~300 hp melees can still survive part4, but most wont, thats just my plain experience of the new shroud

[transtemporal]

I disagree with the OP for the most part. Gear is certainly a part of the equation in completing raids, but co-ordination and teamwork count for more these days. I've seen obscenely uber groups fail something that should've been a walkover and random sub-par pugs step up and succeed. The two factors that determined whether those raids succeeded or failed is the same: co-ordination and teamwork.

[Hendrik]

Shroud
That is a LOL!
You managed to make a lot of raid unplayable, and Shroud was still daily raid (every 3 day, but most runned it daily on different toons). Guess what?! Not anymore, since even if Aretrikols lost HP on hard/elite, blades (that for me should have evasion roll - only logical) kills everyone even on normal.





LOL

It only kills 'everyone on normal' if you have CON for a dump stat or low CON, like, say, a 21 right OP, or a craptastic pugtard group - which is about the norm now.

;)

Shroud has been a snooze fest for a very long time. Boring auto-pilot Raid without a challenge of any sort for almost as long. Now, once again,it has a small challenge to it. Good players/characters breeze through the Shroud on all difficulties. Those that are not, and not at anyone specific, get killed by the blades in two to three hits on Normal and complain on the forums that the failure is Turbines.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

[Hendrik]

I disagree with the OP for the most part. Gear is certainly a part of the equation in completing raids, but co-ordination and teamwork count for more these days. I've seen obscenely uber groups fail something that should've been a walkover and random sub-par pugs step up and succeed. The two factors that determined whether those raids succeeded or failed is the same: co-ordination and teamwork.

Both things are drastically missing from current PUGs.

[transtemporal]

Both things are drastically missing from current PUGs.

That's not true. I've completed ev6 and elite shroud with 'true' pugs recently. They weren't newbs but they weren't particularly uber either. I think I'm coming to the conclusion that it's the luck of the draw.

[In_Like_Flynn]

What was this thread about again?

[Ninety0ne]

Look kids theres plenty of ways to play with the big boys w/o insane gear. I was one of 3 healers in elob with my most awesomest item being cleansed concops. You might not be the dps king youd like to be at first, but roll a healer or a bard and make some friends and pretty soon you'll be one of the op's "privileged" no matter your join date.

[Zenthalas]

I like them.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Do you need all those items - no, are they useful - yes.
That's the difference right there, you only need what you decide you need.

Need is subjective I suppose.

Do I need more SP/HP/cold resist/absorb items? No.
Do I need more SP if I want to perform my role in eDA without using SP pots? Yes.
Do I need more HP if I want to survive a disintegrate from elite reaver? Yes.
Do I need an exceptional cold resist/cold absorb item if I want to perform my role in elite ToD without undue risk of failure? Yes.

So because of the content that I choose to run and the style that I choose to play in (not resource intensive) I need certain items. Which is fine. It's another iteration of heavy fort and HP, do you need it? No. Do you need it to play certain content? Yes.


I liked reading this list of items you are questing for. It's like this long shopping list of grind items.

Then you've misread. I don't run the shroud to grind items, I run it because I enjoy the quest and now I enjoy the challenge. The only grind that comes into it is repeating flagging quests for base mats which is something that I can do in my downtime; like I described above.

[Ungood]

This from someone didn't hesitate to state that "All the people who are happy about the changes to shroud are vets, who are also bragging about the other raids they completed". A statement which is clearly wrong, which is obviuos from just reading through this thread.

You Sir, have done me a disservice by quoting me out of context.

I also note, that you have not provided any of these obvious quotes that prove me wrong.

This, at this point, I wager we are at mister pot telling mister kettle, I believe we are done.

[xandariant]

What was this thread about again?
Well this thread WAS about Turbine messing up all things, rebalancing them over and over, making playing less and less enjoyable, repairing 5% of stuff and breaking 25% of stuff, releasing content like crazy to drive money while they don't bother to spend time to think about balance when they release new content or about serious repairs.

BTW, the best rebalance i was for now is giving monk 20% absorbtion of dmg (probably missing only arti that will give him another 25%) in earth stance. I loved playing a monk, but i kinda hate "pay to win" attitude, so I stopped logging in on monk even if I know I would be welcome in a party i wanted to join.


Need is subjective I suppose.

Do I need more SP/HP/cold resist/absorb items? No.
Do I need more SP if I want to perform my role in eDA without using SP pots? Yes.
Do I need more HP if I want to survive a disintegrate from elite reaver? Yes.
Do I need an exceptional cold resist/cold absorb item if I want to perform my role in elite ToD without undue risk of failure? Yes.

So because of the content that I choose to run and the style that I choose to play in (not resource intensive) I need certain items. Which is fine. It's another iteration of heavy fort and HP, do you need it? No. Do you need it to play certain content? Yes.
This is kinda of things I was talking about.
In here I also can agree you can play almost everything without certain items or with low HP, but If you all who are so eager to say that think that struggling instead of playing make ppl happy I guess many of you just stick with your buddies and don't look around.
BTW making new toon, when you know the game and what is important, then saying you don't need a gear is laying. Since vets are able to make good builds based on knowledge than new ppl don't have don't give even the slightest idea how ppl are treated on their first toon under geared and having hard time getting in any raid.
Besides you often say when you join "It's me XXX", so ppl know you have experience that will work in your favor even if you don't have most of necessary items.

TO ALL.
Please, remember what was this thread about and stop making it a thread about how hard new
I will give you a hint. It's a thread about ppl who leave this game, tired of all nerfing constant rebalancing and constantly scaling all Turbine can, so that veterans are satisfied and new ppl just go, not to mention not knowing if in next update your toon will loose 50% of its usability.

[Orratti]

As I said before people can overestimate the amount of plat and gear long term players have.

You get what you work for.

If you start the game deciding that you want to be a multi millionaire in plat, That is your goal, and you work to achieve it, you will. Ex. You build a mech rogue or hagglebard up your haggle skill as high as possible. Use nothing but ranged weapons so you take no equipment damage. Don't buy wands, pots, scrolls, weapons, armor, or items using only the lowest possible items you can get away with that you loot along the way, ah or vendor everything else even items that you've looted that are better than you're carrying. When asked why you don't have healing pots etc you say "I'm a new player and can't afford pots or wands" even though you've gathered thousands and gladly accept any plat offered to buy those items and add it to the pile. You ply the ah like some stock broker buying low and selling high eventually you will become a multi millionaire. Probably faster than most people have. If that is your goal and you do what it takes to succeed you will.

If you start the game deciding that you are going to have the best gear in the game then wiki all of it or search the forums for loot threads, pick out the stuff you want and then go after it. Constantly upgrading as you go along to give you the best chances to succeed at the next quest that carries the items you are after. Lie if need be to get into and learn the raids. Lead you own groups whether failures or successes to get another shot at the next piece. Keep at it until you can do it in your sleep you will get geared out. Probably faster than most people have. If that is your goal and you do what it takes to succeed.

Most people won't take these tacts. They won't take them because they aren't much fun, they are work. I wouldn't go about playing in either of those ways. So when I say that I had less than 500k plat spread out over 10 toons for years you can believe that. If I really had that much. Alot of people made alot of their money off of me and players like me. There are going to be many people around that spent years playing that aren't going to be super rich or super geared. I bought alot of my gear off of the ah. I still do buy gear. There are people with altitis out there that have been around along time that haven't been doing 2 or 3 raids a night for years. I spent large amounts of time myself in pvp not making any money or getting any gear and would have kept on that way until greensteel started popping up in the arenas and I had to start trying to catch up on my gear. Altitis affected even more people. They were too busy building and playing new toons everytime they turned around to spend all their time farming items or plying the ah.

If you start this game today and are determined to get to the top of the heap of players and be the best player, or the richest, or the best geared, you probably won't make it but you will pass many players that have been here long before your arrival and there is still a chance that you will.

In addition veterans also leave the game for the same reasons you are listing for the losses of new players. They also leave the game from boredom. When they leave the game, much like your friend, they take their experience and leadership with them.

In further addition. I don't know what to tell you when it comes to getting build experience that you would want to hear. We all made bad toons when we first played obviously won't do the trick as those who have the knowldge now don't usually make bad toons anymore and that seems to be part of the problem you're having. Learning from your own experience isn't going to satisfy. Rerolling while passing what gear you have that isn't btc to another toon looks even worse. What can anyone say to that? Those with building experience could only offer to all quit playing otherwise they will have an edge until you catch up in knowledge. I have manuals at home for 3.5 DnD those give a great advantage to a player over starting with no knowledge whatsoever of the game but they still don't even come close to game experience for help with character building. The only thing I can tell you is to find a player that impresses you and ask them for help on your current or next build. Ask a friendly vet you believe knows what they are doing. There is also a thread on the forums called request a build get a build or something along those lines. You go in and ask for a build and describe what you want it to be able to do and the op will spit you out a build that will perform the way you envisioned. Don't know for sure that the thread and op are still active though.

[SilkofDrasnia]

As I said before people can overestimate the amount of plat and gear long term players have.

You get what you work for.

If you start the game deciding that you want to be a multi millionaire in plat, That is your goal, and you work to achieve it, you will. Ex. You build a mech rogue or hagglebard up your haggle skill as high as possible. Use nothing but ranged weapons so you take no equipment damage. Don't buy wands, pots, scrolls, weapons, armor, or items using only the lowest possible items you can get away with that you loot along the way, ah or vendor everything else even items that you've looted that are better than you're carrying. When asked why you don't have healing pots etc you say "I'm a new player and can't afford pots or wands" even though you've gathered thousands and gladly accept any plat offered to buy those items and add it to the pile. You ply the ah like some stock broker buying low and selling high eventually you will become a multi millionaire. Probably faster than most people have. If that is your goal and you do what it takes to succeed you will.

If you start the game deciding that you are going to have the best gear in the game then wiki all of it or search the forums for loot threads, pick out the stuff you want and then go after it. Constantly upgrading as you go along to give you the best chances to succeed at the next quest that carries the items you are after. Lie if need be to get into and learn the raids. Lead you own groups whether failures or successes to get another shot at the next piece. Keep at it until you can do it in your sleep you will get geared out. Probably faster than most people have. If that is your goal and you do what it takes to succeed.

Most people won't take these tacts. They won't take them because they aren't much fun, they are work. I wouldn't go about playing in either of those ways. So when I say that I had less than 500k plat spread out over 10 toons for years you can believe that. If I really had that much. Alot of people made alot of their money off of me and players like me. There are going to be many people around that spent years playing that aren't going to be super rich or super geared. I bought alot of my gear off of the ah. I still do buy gear. There are people with altitis out there that have been around along time that haven't been doing 2 or 3 raids a night for years. I spent large amounts of time myself in pvp not making any money or getting any gear and would have kept on that way until greensteel started popping up in the arenas and I had to start trying to catch up on my gear. Altitis affected even more people. They were too busy building and playing new toons everytime they turned around to spend all their time farming items or plying the ah.

If you start this game today and are determined to get to the top of the heap of players and be the best player, or the richest, or the best geared, you probably won't make it but you will pass many players that have been here long before your arrival and there is still a chance that you will.

In addition veterans also leave the game for the same reasons. They also leave the game from boredom. When they leave the game, much like your friend they take their experience and leadership with them.

but many do have there gear upgraded etc etc AND have lots n lots of cash not to mention what this new update has done to make this worse.

your right not all long term player are rich but some are just cuase someone has alt itis doesnt make u poor cause u then most likely have a nice haggler with nice and hi haggle score

[Orratti]

but many do have there gear upgraded etc etc AND have lots n lots of cash not to mention what this new update has done to make this worse.

your right not all long term player are rich but some are just cuase someone has alt itis doesnt make u poor cause u then most likely have a nice haggler with nice and hi haggle score

I hope your joking. How about this then we completely reformat the whole game. Everyone starts over from square one and those of us with build knowledge agree to getting hit in the side of the head with a brick hoping to erase it.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I hope your joking. How about this then we completely reformat the whole game. Everyone starts over from square one and those of us with build knowledge agree to getting hit in the side of the head with a brick hoping to erase it.

heh guess u dont understand what im getting at, yes u get what u work for but some get what they exploited for and that has bearing on this thread cause it gonna make it that much harder for newbs

i never said anything that suggest a reformat LOL over exaggerate much there on your part, my post was not about builds at all

i was just pointing out that you are underestimating what older players can accumulate over time

[QuantumFX]

What was this thread about again?

I think it’s about how damage reducers based on percentages interacts with damage reducers based on a static number. I vaguely recall something about percentages.

[grgurius]

What was this thread about again?

Something along the lines: tl;dr of the OP: this game sucks because raids are getting harder and that will turn away new players. And i'm leaving too, but first i'll ramble on the forums about how shroud is to hard now.

[Orratti]

heh guess u dont understand what im getting at, yes u get what u work for but some get what they exploited for and that has bearing on this thread cause it gonna make it that much harder for newbs

i never said anything that suggest a reformat LOL over exaggerate much there on your part, my post was not about builds at all

i was just pointing out that you are underestimating what older players can accumulate over time

Exploiting takes work too. First you have to find the proper way to exploit, then you have to find those to exploit, then you have to spend the time exploiting.

I added additions to the post you quoted to address the ops statements in the post beforehand.

Yes there are players who have lots of gear, lots of plat, and won't let you into their groups etc unless they know you or you fit their qualifications for getting in. People who have played for a few months can be like that. Met a ranger with less than 200 hps trying to run some elite orchard quest where he completely screwed it all up kiting one of the two pre bosses in Ghosts died while doing so then blasted the group for not helping him which running along behind him swinging melee weapons wasn't going to do and umding heal scrolls couldn't keep up with his hp losses. The cleric was busy working on kiting the other down to meet us to basically solo both with blade barriers. Mr Superhero after lambasting us said some **** about us messing up his bonuses dropped and immediately put up an lfm for "No Noobs". The rest of us started over picked up another guy and finished it. That ranger made my very short list of people never to play with again.

At very high lvls the equipment being able to overlap abilities will allow a player to get much more out of their equipment slots but you are talking about ToD sets, red scale armor, greensteel, dt armor but cmon lets be real here. That stuff you can't buy so plat is a non issue and the progression through that equipment is pretty step by step material. Those with millions of plat sure they can buy lds but they don't because they are the ones selling them. You get your heavy fort/toughness item from taps, you run casual refuge for the dt armor, you run shroud for the greensteel, then amrath, then epics. You can start out at the bottom of the list wearing a heavy fort necklace from relic, a +6 con ring, duskheart, +6 str gloves or gauntlets, +6 dex boots or gloves etc.
You really don't even need to be as well equipped as that list is.

Yes you can get left out in the cold by tr groups running that material that aren't going to let you in but there are enough folks out there that need that stuff that you can put up a group for any of it and you will get people joining that need it including TRs.

The worst thing for new players is the bravery bonuses. If tr groups are up running that material that are doing it for xp and not the loot which you still need they aren't going to let you in because you could and probably will die from not having equipment from previous lives. That can only be delt with by putting up lfms for casual/normal runs for loot. Now that could only be a real problem if there aren't any new players on your server who need that loot or are at that level or you really don't want to run with other new player but instead want to run with experienced players who can get you where you are after going without working as hard for it.

[hecate355]

heh guess u dont understand what im getting at, yes u get what u work for but some get what they exploited for and that has bearing on this thread cause it gonna make it that much harder for newbs

i never said anything that suggest a reformat LOL over exaggerate much there on your part, my post was not about builds at all

i was just pointing out that you are underestimating what older players can accumulate over time

if something is exploitable, it WILL be exploited, new or old player is irrelevant

and i lost it somewhere... how exactly does long time players having more resources/gear hurt newcomers? are you suggesting we should all be equal?

i find it quite natural that over length of time you accumulate valuables. recently(in last year or so) there have been many changes that actually help new players to catch up.

DDO has had the direction to ease new players catching up for already years.

[Seftonblake]

and i lost it somewhere... how exactly does long time players having more resources/gear hurt newcomers? are you suggesting we should all be equal?


Do u think Turbine chance gameplay & quests for the new player? u think nerfs are for the new player? Sorry but i've been here since the start and I totally think Turbine dont give a stuff about new players experience. Yes there is a platform for them to play, but the a million miles apart from long term players at end game (if infact they even get picked for end game).

This game was first released on the promise it wasnt about repatition, and sorry but its only about repatition. The new player will and should hate this as this is my major bug bear

[Vormaerin]

How on earthy can you possibly say that Turbine doesn't care about the new player experience? How many times have they revised the harbor/korthos island to make the noob experience better?

How many of the post f2p packs were low level (Sharn, Phiarlan Carnival, Sentinels, Red Fens, Chronosphere, etc) quests that generate gear that smokes what used to be available to new players?

Exactly what have they done that can be considered catering to the lvl 20 uber crowd? Adjusting the raids to restore them to some level of challenge, which they used to have?

[Ungood]

TO ALL.
Please, remember what was this thread about and stop making it a thread about how hard new
I will give you a hint. It's a thread about ppl who leave this game, tired of all nerfing constant rebalancing and constantly scaling all Turbine can, so that veterans are satisfied and new ppl just go, not to mention not knowing if in next update your toon will loose 50% of its usability.

This is a good point.

While a little tweaking here and there for Class abilities, is expected, (Cough: Tempest Nerf, Fire Wall Nerf, Etc) to keep the classes inline to the game. Revision of Content is not welcome.

Power Creep is met with new content to make the new "Super Powers" fit in place. When the level cap moved from 10 to 16, the content put in to deal with the 16th level players was harder, more challenging, and designed to handle their levels, while the previous content was left to deal with those first 10 levels.

And you know what. That is a good thing. People going up those first 10 levels today, are not going be much (if at all) better then the players that went up those 10 levels in the past.

Equally so. The players that clawed their way to 16th when that was the cap, I would wager were not much (it at all) worse off then the players crawling their way to 16th their first time today.

Thus, accommodating the new higher levels, is done with the new content, not the old stuff. In fact, the older content typically is a good challenge for the players who are stumbling though the game for their first time or growing into the game. After all, that was who the content was designed for to begin with.

[Vormaerin]

That's where you are wrong. The effect of raids that are not at level cap is that the don't get run. No one runs VoN6 at lvl 10, because the xp, loot, and difficulty all favor regular quests.

If lvl 10 raids drop loot that is superceded pretty quickly (since they are lvl 10), then there's no reason to try to run them repeatedly. If the loot isn't superceded, the lvl 10 raid is going to be farmed by overlevel characters because its easier and safer, defeating the point of the risk/reward structure of the raid.

No one is changing the difficulty of the many, many quests that drop good loot. They are adjusting the risk (and the reward) of the raids, because the particular structure of that style of content means it makes sense to do so.

[hecate355]

Do u think Turbine chance gameplay & quests for the new player? u think nerfs are for the new player? Sorry but i've been here since the start and I totally think Turbine dont give a stuff about new players experience. Yes there is a platform for them to play, but the a million miles apart from long term players at end game (if infact they even get picked for end game).

This game was first released on the promise it wasnt about repatition, and sorry but its only about repatition. The new player will and should hate this as this is my major bug bear

you want specific examples? i can bring up countless ones, about how the game mechanics have changed over years.

take reavers refugee example, you can now see what effects runes have and trade em within chest, it wasnt always like that, it was total lottery and mindless repeating.

and epic cove items sure did help newer players, some of their properties rather hard and grindy to get for said vets befor cove kicked in.

[Astraghal]

People overestimate the amount of gear and plat long time players have. I believe in order to support their arguments that things are soo unfair for them or the new player. I barely had 500k plat spread over 10 toons for many years if I even had that much.

There are a LOT of decent long term Arcane/FvS who log in every day to solo farm. These players have dozens of FRDS/LDS, capped plat, multiples of every desirable epic scroll and every epic/raid/special item they want. If you only have 500k across 10 toons over years of playing then you're doing it wrong. :p

PS - No I'm not one of those Arcane/FvS players. I do know who many of them are and see them buying and selling on a daily basis, wielding huge chunks of DDO wealth.

[Xufang]

Was the OP trolling or something?

[Jandric]

Abbot and Reaver say "hi."

Reaver still barely has time before he dies to say, "Hi', even on Elite

Seriously, the most dangerous thing in that raid is the crack in the middle of the ceiling :)

[Orratti]

There are a LOT of decent long term Arcane/FvS who log in every day to solo farm. These players have dozens of FRDS/LDS, capped plat, multiples of every desirable epic scroll and every epic/raid/special item they want. If you only have 500k across 10 toons over years of playing then you're doing it wrong. :p

PS - No I'm not one of those Arcane/FvS players. I do know who many of them are and see them buying and selling on a daily basis, wielding huge chunks of DDO wealth.

Well I have alot of plat now. It mostly sits there. What I was doing wrong was not playing a caster through most of my gaming instead I was playing clerics and buying wands and scrolls to keep my groups and myself alive or for melees and other toons buying pots for self sufficiency, buying weapons, buying, buying, buying. What I bought probably made many caster players rich and I have no problem with that.

[Zlingerdark]

This is a good point.

While a little tweaking here and there for Class abilities, is expected, (Cough: Tempest Nerf, Fire Wall Nerf, Etc) to keep the classes inline to the game. Revision of Content is not welcome.

Power Creep is met with new content to make the new "Super Powers" fit in place. When the level cap moved from 10 to 16, the content put in to deal with the 16th level players was harder, more challenging, and designed to handle their levels, while the previous content was left to deal with those first 10 levels.

And you know what. That is a good thing. People going up those first 10 levels today, are not going be much (if at all) better then the players that went up those 10 levels in the past.

Equally so. The players that clawed their way to 16th when that was the cap, I would wager were not much (it at all) worse off then the players crawling their way to 16th their first time today.

Thus, accommodating the new higher levels, is done with the new content, not the old stuff. In fact, the older content typically is a good challenge for the players who are stumbling though the game for their first time or growing into the game. After all, that was who the content was designed for to begin with.

While I understand the game needs to change and evolve over time to keep old players playing and new ones coming. However, I cannot shake the feeling after each update that I find myself staring at what amounts to being a completely different game.

With each update since, oh about a year ago, the changes were far too drastic and far-reaching. The amount of hitches/hiccups/bugs added in the process doesn't help. As much as I would like more and more new content, I would rather have less new stuff, and have a more polished product to play.

I have been playing almost since F2P was introduced, and plopped down better than $200+ into this game. I buy what I think I'll need and pretty much ignore the majority of the game. Even after 2+ years playing, I have barely scratched the surface of this game. I am by no means a expert at anything (well maybe Korthos and the Harbor... :p or just about any under level 10 quests) I have almost literally zero raid experience and even the draw of possible awesome loot isn't enough to me farm for anything.

So I guess what I am saying, I am so far away from end-game that I don't even see it on my radar. My highest level toon is just 18th, and I've only run Shroud once. The new version in fact is my ONLY experience in the Shroud (It was a successful completion BTW). I can count on ONE hand how many raids I have run thus far. So raiding generally has ZERO appeal for me.

But all that doesn't matter much to me because I have yet to fully appreciate and experience those aspects of the game. What I do not appreciate is the constant overhaul of the game, and continual changing of some basic game concepts. I almost do not recognize some of my many alts, as they still have old enhancements that no longer exist, or the basic core of the class has changed drastically enough to completely alter my vision for that character. This should not happen with great regularity. Tweaking and modifying spells a little is fine, but altering core class and their abilities is not.

I think Turbine needs to pull back the reins a little on this runaway donkey cart before it is completely lost in the woods. Jarring and radical changes per update serves to frustrate the player more than getting them to be excited by new content. Much more caution should be placed in adding major game changing updates.

I kind of feel like I went from DDO:EU 2nd edition rules in 2009, to 3.5 edition in 2010 to 4.0 now in 2011. None of those were simple updates or just adding new quest content, but major game changes that would warrant an entirely new version number. I think people are more upset that things have changed so drastically (in such a short time) that they cannot effectively plan for the future of their characters.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This is kinda of things I was talking about.
In here I also can agree you can play almost everything without certain items or with low HP, but If you all who are so eager to say that think that struggling instead of playing make ppl happy I guess many of you just stick with your buddies and don't look around.
BTW making new toon, when you know the game and what is important, then saying you don't need a gear is laying. Since vets are able to make good builds based on knowledge than new ppl don't have don't give even the slightest idea how ppl are treated on their first toon under geared and having hard time getting in any raid.
Besides you often say when you join "It's me XXX", so ppl know you have experience that will work in your favor even if you don't have most of necessary items.

How silly is this. All any new player has to do is to discover the forums and then they can have all the help that they desire building a character. Sure, everyone messes up their first character but the sooner new players find the forum (from vets directing them there as often as not) the better.

People love to "struggle". It's one of the core principles of MMOs and games in general; invest time getting better equipment and skills and you will be rewarded. There isnt much difference in the level of fun between doing a quest on normal and doing a quest on elite; all that changes is the sense of accomplishment. If fun is all that interests a player then there is no reason that they can't avoid the harder content and just stick to easier content. What is great about DDO is that it is flexible and it can cater for a variety of playstyles.

Starting a new toon on a new server means that I don't know anyone. Sure, I'm in a good guild but I tend to put a lot just to meet people myself. I did most of the hardest content while leveling without significant gear and without a friends list of people that I can trust. The only thing that I had beind me was a solid build (which any new player can access by discovering the forums) and an ability to work the AH to amass wealth (as I have expensive tastes).

These things aren't beyond a new player. Basic build skills and an understanding of what sells and what doesn't on the AH can be learned in under a week just through the forums and basic game experience if you pay attention.

[Gremmlynn]

heh guess u dont understand what im getting at, yes u get what u work for but some get what they exploited for and that has bearing on this thread cause it gonna make it that much harder for newbs

i never said anything that suggest a reformat LOL over exaggerate much there on your part, my post was not about builds at all

i was just pointing out that you are underestimating what older players can accumulate over timeI think you are overestimating how much advantage that gives them. Having the best possible gear at all times doesn't make one a winner. Getting by with whatever you find will go a lot further towards gaining that end.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I think you are overestimating how much advantage that gives them. Having the best possible gear at all times doesn't make one a winner. Getting by with whatever you find will go a lot further towards gaining that end.

agreed but thats neither here nor there.

its like saying even if someone is stronger than u in a fight if u got mad skillz u can win and kick their buts, this is true unless the guy that's stronger has mad skillz equal to yours then ur likely to lose . see my point

i just think having plat is more than an advantage than some realize or want to admit to, im not saying without plat ur gonna suck and cant get no where lol

[noinfo]

agreed but thats neither here nor there.

its like saying even if someone is stronger than u in a fight if u got mad skillz u can win and kick their buts, this is true unless the guy that's stronger has mad skillz equal to yours then ur likely to lose . see my point

i just think having plat is more than an advantage than some realize or want to admit to, im not saying without plat ur gonna suck and cant get no where lol

Except that in this game strength is not measured by plat. Plat is basically the currency of consumables and that is it. You might occasionally get some nice piece of junk for a bit of plat but really those things that are worth anything are traded for. Even low level twink junk that you might have once bought on the AH is garbage compared to many low level gear sets available and easy end rewards. Still with a forum name like that I can understand your hang up with plat and everyone needs to have a hobby but I am already seeing the AH prices dropping again and they will continue to drop as AH fee's carve out huge chunks of plat each transaction.

[Vormaerin]

The math is wrong anyway. You couldn't spend more than $180 a year on Turbine's game before the Unlimited version came out without having multiple subscriptions. And most folks who subbed continuously would have snagged one of the $10/month offers and kept it active.

With the store based model, then you might have subs spending $200/yr though its more likely the premiums who are doing that, since the sub player would need to buy more than 6000 TP worth of stuff a year, when no adventure packs and few other account options are available for sale.

[Ungood]

The math is wrong anyway. You couldn't spend more than $180 a year on Turbine's game before the Unlimited version came out without having multiple subscriptions. And most folks who subbed continuously would have snagged one of the $10/month offers and kept it active.

With the store based model, then you might have subs spending $200/yr though its more likely the premiums who are doing that, since the sub player would need to buy more than 6000 TP worth of stuff a year, when no adventure packs and few other account options are available for sale.

I had dual VIP accounts, paid annual, at 150 a year, going, for 2 years straight, plus, no less then 4 purchases of 50 dollar point bundles, which puts me at, a minimum of having spent, $800 over 2 years.

With U12, I can't say I am inclined to spend another cent on this game.

I hope you will be picking up that tab.

[MarcusCleardawn]

Give it time.

There was much controversy when MyDDO came out. There was a period where there was some discrimination against new players into getting into PUG raids and even PUG groups for some of the harder content. There was much backlash and gnashing of teeth on the forums and then it basically burnt itself out.

Shroud and Reaver have been made much more difficult, but tactics will change and either the player base will adapt or eventually the development team will tone it down.

As far as the general legacy effects, that is to say older players have all the wiz bang uber stuffs. Back when I started, this wasn't a big deal because unless you wanted to try an armor class build, you could get by with relatively little gear and you could readily find it at the various pawn shops or the auction house. Some of that has changed with Cannith crafting as many people are simply melting down their spare loot rather than pawning it or putting it up on the AH. This too will correct itself, as early adopters reach their cap and then go into the business of selling their crafting expertise. For the nonce, there is a shortage of some gear and prices are at a bit of a premium, but give it a month or two and I suspect it will be greatly improved.

I haven't done Shroud at level since the new update, but I have done Reaver on hard at level and while it was more difficult; it wasn't game breaking and let's be honest, before you could send in a warforged arcane and if he or she flew well, pike the enter raid. Elite was a different story, but then again at that point you're really 2 levels under so I'm not fussed about that.

[Synnestar35791]

I had dual VIP accounts, paid annual, at 150 a year, going, for 2 years straight, plus, no less then 4 purchases of 50 dollar point bundles, which puts me at, a minimum of having spent, $800 over 2 years.

With U12, I can't say I am inclined to spend another cent on this game.

I hope you will be picking up that tab.

Turning Crystal Cove into a Store point suction machine was bad form, Cannith Pack is meant for Epic equipped multi-life characters, which does help those types of characters, & the increased server burden is causing extra lag points at peaks times. I honestly can't see why Turbine to took an event that was fun/ challenging, & enjoyable, & made it a pool for point usage. Then again, Turbine is trying to generate income, but I think in a misguided way. Adding content good, content for characters that have multiple lives even better, why NOT give those sort of characters a whole storyline of new addition, or simply revisit something but as an addendum to a story that was solved, but re-active because re-incarnation is possible in DDO, & Shavarath just can't be sated or suppressed so easily, Evil is as Evil does = the eternal battles continue.... Story-line is much more appealing than cyclical content anyway - repetitive grind for favor - that's been here, Epic equipment grind, continues, Bound to Account Rocks BtC calls for more bank space....

[wax_on_wax_off]

Turning Crystal Cove into a Store point suction machine was bad form, Cannith Pack is meant for Epic equipped multi-life characters, which does help those types of characters, & the increased server burden is causing extra lag points at peaks times. I honestly can't see why Turbine to took an event that was fun/ challenging, & enjoyable, & made it a pool for point usage. Then again, Turbine is trying to generate income, but I think in a misguided way. Adding content good, content for characters that have multiple lives even better, why NOT give those sort of characters a whole storyline of new addition, or simply revisit something but as an addendum to a story that was solved, but re-active because re-incarnation is possible in DDO, & Shavarath just can't be sated or suppressed so easily, Evil is as Evil does = the eternal battles continue.... Story-line is much more appealing than cyclical content anyway - repetitive grind for favor - that's been here, Epic equipment grind, continues, Bound to Account Rocks BtC calls for more bank space....

I didn't spend any TP in crystal cove and made every item that I wanted and a few more that I didn't need. Sure, there were lots of consumables that you could buy for TP but it's up to you if you spend them or not.

I suppose I have less TP than what I would have had if I hadn't played in CC as getting XP there meant I wasn't running quests for favour.

The game is versatile, play how you like. If you want to cut corners and get better loots with less time/skill then expect to have to pay something for it.

For the general message of this thread. No, it's complete hogwash. I've not played the game very long (compared to some others) and yet I've completed most of the hardest content in the game (elite ToD and hard/elite/epic LoB/MA and some elite/epic quests still outstanding but check this space). I've done this with basically 0 resources as I'd recently moved server and hadn't completed any character transfers yet. My only assets were my player skill, my ability to work in a team and the friends and guildies that I'd managed to make.

This is an amazingly friendly game to any new players and the only real difficulty for a new player is overcoming the learning curve when it comes to character creation (forums!)

[xandariant]

I had dual VIP accounts, paid annual, at 150 a year, going, for 2 years straight, plus, no less then 4 purchases of 50 dollar point bundles, which puts me at, a minimum of having spent, $800 over 2 years.

With U12, I can't say I am inclined to spend another cent on this game.

I hope you will be picking up that tab.
It was fun.
At least for a long time. It was nice to go and learn new quests etc.

Now it is all about money, getting ppl worked up on farming items to make their builds or TRs or something else.
There is so much grind in this game, that it pains me.

I just played a little bit few other games and they look way better.
There is a lot more of fun in other games, that don't want to rob you of your money.

As for the money (and money milking), L2 just went free, some other MMOs also, Guild Wars costs a price of game and not steals money from you every 3 months (for work and content not worth its price). I know I paid way too much for DDO over my 2,5 years of playing, but I still had fun, even if it was not worth it compared to other games. It really is not worth - all those bugs, joke of any in game or out game support (being send form one help to another with your problem etc), and over all twisting all rules Turbine developers make with a try to make this game more challenging for ppl who are bored and too scared to try a new game and find something better. Or just those who are or thinking, that spending a year to make 'perfect' toon is worth anything and dont want to move from the game in order to show how much they did.

As for character progress, I'm not a fan of L2 but it hit me. They just made this game even faster to progress in order to make ppl lvl high fast and start real fun. DDO just wants you to spend hours on TRing in order to hold you in their gasp longer or force you to buy xp pots. All in name to "stick with us longer".

As for money, I think that games that are sold as a whole, like GW1 are worth way more. No monthly fee, no pay every few months. Just buy next major update if you want, and over time prices drop since there are better things. DDO raises prices and want to charge you for every part of this game like it was a game itself, but it offers so way less than a new game everyone else does. I wont go for it anymore since most of new updates are made for grind and I don't find anything fun in them after 2-3 runs. So I'm bored in like 2 days and go back to grind.

As for grind, games like GW are almost grind free since you can move your stats around in towns. I will surely go for GW2 as soon as it goes out, since that game looks amazing and offers you even more freedom, since you can choose what kind of role you take on a whim (main offence, support, healer, etc) and even allows you do a dynamic parties (by area in which you ware), and fast travels (not endless walking to guild ships).

As for buggyness, I think that every good game is rewritten in time and I'm surprised that DDO didn't go that way with WB support.
That would really make this game way better since it goes lower and lower compared to a lot of titles I discovered over last month.

As for listening and going into ppl expectations, Turbine only claims to listen forums, but they never give a real response into ppls advices, asks for help, repairs or ppls ideas (and a lot of good ones). They just make this game what they feel is needed, but as a lot of ppl (including my friends and now me) leaves it shows they should finally try to read what ppl write. I know also that not many ppl will read it and even more will think about it seriously, but I feel it was needed to be written (again).
Yet again they listened after few years about sharing plat in bank and made it another $ sink and 5% of players who were constantly screaming for making quests harder and make a lot of ppl leave game due this. So that shows that even if they will finally listen, they will twist what they hear.

In other words thanks for all your time. Thanks for your support.
I loved DDO once and I hope some ppl in Turbine will get to their senses once they will see ppl are leaving and finally will start fixing this game, make it more playable/fun and less bugy. Customer support will have any power.

For notice those jokers from the start of this thread, I never waited to finish my character. There is no point anymore, since I don't think I will be coming back to DDO, at leas until attitude of it makers changes.

See me in some better places. CU.

[sacredguyver]

It was fun.
At least for a long time. It was nice to go and learn new quests etc.

Now it is all about money, getting ppl worked up on farming items to make their builds or TRs or something else.
There is so much grind in this game, that it pains me.
This line makes it sound as if you're entitled to all the available gear when you hit a new level, or heaven-forbid, at the start of the game.


I just played a little bit few other games and they look way better.
There is a lot more of fun in other games, that don't want to rob you of your money.

As for the money (and money milking), L2 just went free, some other MMOs also, Guild Wars costs a price of game and not steals money from you every 3 months (for work and content not worth its price). I know I paid way too much for DDO over my 2,5 years of playing, but I still had fun, even if it was not worth it compared to other games. It really is not worth - all those bugs, joke of any in game or out game support (being send form one help to another with your problem etc), and over all twisting all rules Turbine developers make with a try to make this game more challenging for ppl who are bored and too scared to try a new game and find something better. Or just those who are or thinking, that spending a year to make 'perfect' toon is worth anything and dont want to move from the game in order to show how much they did.If you have fun doing something, than any money spent would be worth it. If you didn't find some value in playing the game, you wouldn't have been willing to spend whatever money you did for it. It's not as if Turbine requires a credit card with each new account so they can take any amount of money they want, when they want it.


As for character progress, I'm not a fan of L2 but it hit me. They just made this game even faster to progress in order to make ppl lvl high fast and start real fun. DDO just wants you to spend hours on TRing in order to hold you in their gasp longer or force you to buy xp pots. All in name to "stick with us longer".TR'ing is optional, the time spent is optional, even playing the game itself is optional. Don't like it, don't do it. How many other games require you to make an entirely new character from nothing just to do something different? At least with True Reincarnation, you can keep your items/plat/etc and you even get a little extra for it.


As for money, I think that games that are sold as a whole, like GW1 are worth way more. No monthly fee, no pay every few months. Just buy next major update if you want, and over time prices drop since there are better things. DDO raises prices and want to charge you for every part of this game like it was a game itself, but it offers so way less than a new game everyone else does. I wont go for it anymore since most of new updates are made for grind and I don't find anything fun in them after 2-3 runs. So I'm bored in like 2 days and go back to grind. Since I've been playing, I can only remember a few instances where the price of an item was adjusted and not only were those instances for adventure packs (something you don't have to buy), but the increase was not horribly extreme and was limited to the most beneficial packs: the packs that had the most going for them (and still do).


As for grind, games like GW are almost grind free since you can move your stats around in towns. I will surely go for GW2 as soon as it goes out, since that game looks amazing and offers you even more freedom, since you can choose what kind of role you take on a whim (main offence, support, healer, etc) and even allows you do a dynamic parties (by area in which you ware), and fast travels (not endless walking to guild ships)."Almost grind free." Remember that. You may be able to easily readjust your skill point distributions, but you will still have to get those points over the course of playing the game. Also, Guild ship portals are common enough in DDO to where you don't have to run half-way across the world to get to one, and even if you did decide to always run from one place to another, there are ways to easily increase your run speed to do so in rather small public areas.


As for buggyness, I think that every good game is rewritten in time and I'm surprised that DDO didn't go that way with WB support.
That would really make this game way better since it goes lower and lower compared to a lot of titles I discovered over last month.If a company is going to rewrite one of their games from the ground up, why not take that time to make a new game? Or better yet, add to what already exists and improve upon what's there? Bugs are going to exist in any game. Some may be more obvious than others, but they will be there. Many of the "titles [you] discovered over last month" took a few years to make, from concept to planning, programming, testing, etc. Right now, DDO is looking at a new Update every few months (with Patches and hot-fixes in-between as necessary), and even with a backlog of Updates to push out, we're getting playable content rather quickly.


As for listening and going into ppl expectations, Turbine only claims to listen forums, but they never give a real response into ppls advices, asks for help, repairs or ppls ideas (and a lot of good ones). They just make this game what they feel is needed, but as a lot of ppl (including my friends and now me) leaves it shows they should finally try to read what ppl write. I know also that not many ppl will read it and even more will think about it seriously, but I feel it was needed to be written (again).
Yet again they listened after few years about sharing plat in bank and made it another $ sink and 5% of players who were constantly screaming for making quests harder and make a lot of ppl leave game due this. So that shows that even if they will finally listen, they will twist what they hear.Turbine does listen to people who post on their forums. They may not act as quickly as one would like about something, but that's part of life in general, not just games. Based on what I understand from what 404Error posted concerning Mournlands, we're getting an Update on the Live server while the next two or three (or more) are being tested on the private test server (And so no one forgets, Lamannia is a preview server to show off new content before it goes live, not a test server for bug finding, though it is great that people take the time to bug hunt before it goes live).


In other words thanks for all your time. Thanks for your support.
I loved DDO once and I hope some ppl in Turbine will get to their senses once they will see ppl are leaving and finally will start fixing this game, make it more playable/fun and less bugy. Customer support will have any power.
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/7363/solongandthanksforallth.jpg

Am I doing it right?


For notice those jokers from the start of this thread, I never waited to finish my character. There is no point anymore, since I don't think I will be coming back to DDO, at leas until attitude of it makers changes.

See me in some better places. CU.If you're on Cannith, can I have your stuff?

[mystafyi]

Based on what I understand from what 404Error posted concerning Mournlands, we're getting an Update on the Live server while the next two or three (or more) are being tested on the private test server

Sadly mournlands isnt a test server either. In case you havent noticed by the lack of testing new items, bugs and exploits, Turbine has no test server.

[hecate355]

This grind complaining...

Do all complainers even realize, that if you remove all the grind from such games, there isnt much more replayability than any random short offline game has?
At least in DDO context, remove those time consuming and rare luck demanding activities, and the game ends very quick for you.

You level char up, learn quests, run em this and that way. Meet great people get all easy and non rare loot. Then you try couple more builds, rinse repeat and shortly after you are at the point where you either quit or beg for some kind of a grind or time sink, for the sake of character progression.

Nothing stops you from quitting right befor the grind line can be drawn or choosing to aim towards something that you havent tried yet.

People themselves GIVE IN to the grind and then complain go around complaining about it, while at same time, others demand character progression at 20 etc.

If you play this game purely for the sake of fun and running with friends and other people you call cool(im sure some will respond with that), then there is NO inherit grind in doing that. Other than that, you are simply giving in for the grind by yourself.
From there you can either swallow it down and grind it out(remember its is yourself who wants to grind those uber rare total cool and leet thigns?) or quit the game all together. however what you SHOULD NOT do, is to come here and complain about grind that you took on you by yourself.

Thats my way of seeing how ddo and many similar games work.

/end_poor english :D

[Ungood]

It was fun.
At least for a long time. It was nice to go and learn new quests etc.

See me in some better places. CU.

You will be missed friend. I'll see you in the next world when I get there. Look me up.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

It was fun.
.
.
.
.
See me in some better places. CU.


When do you finally do what you say and quit?

Looking at your post history from the last weeks you made dozens of threads/posts about how bad this game is and that you want to quit....but you are still here?

[Qaliya]

I think people make a mistake in thinking that they will be interested in playing a game like this forever. Everything has a natural cycle and when it comes to the point where you have more complaints than enjoyment, it's time to move on. It may seem like you're only doing it because of perceived flaws on the part of the game or Turbine, but I believe it's unrealistic to think that there's anything they could do to keep everyone excited indefinitely.

It's a game, not a marriage. If you're bored or fed up, there's plenty of fish in the sea, as they say.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

I think people make a mistake in thinking that they will be interested in playing a game like this forever. Everything has a natural cycle and when it comes to the point where you have more complaints than enjoyment, it's time to move on. It may seem like you're only doing it because of perceived flaws on the part of the game or Turbine, but I believe it's unrealistic to think that there's anything they could do to keep everyone excited indefinitely.

It's a game, not a marriage. If you're bored or fed up, there's plenty of fish in the sea, as they say.

Good Post +1

[Ungood]

When do you finally do what you say and quit?

Looking at your post history from the last weeks you made dozens of threads/posts about how bad this game is and that you want to quit....but you are still here?

If you actually looked at his posting history, like you said you did, you would notice his last post was on 11/15. Roughly 20 days ago.

Now, maybe his post was a bit too long for you to comprehend the whole thing, but, it seems you missed that he said he has been trying out other games in that time and now is moving on.

Sadly, we are loosing people like Xand, and keeping people like you.

[NaturalHazard]

I think people make a mistake in thinking that they will be interested in playing a game like this forever. Everything has a natural cycle and when it comes to the point where you have more complaints than enjoyment, it's time to move on. It may seem like you're only doing it because of perceived flaws on the part of the game or Turbine, but I believe it's unrealistic to think that there's anything they could do to keep everyone excited indefinitely.

It's a game, not a marriage. If you're bored or fed up, there's plenty of fish in the sea, as they say.

Yep its not like your going to have a messy divorce and lose your house because you sampled some of that fish cause you where bored and fed up. :D

[Dunklerlindwurm]

If you actually looked at his posting history, like you said you did, you would notice his last post was on 11/15. Roughly 20 days ago.

Now, maybe his post was a bit too long for you to comprehend the whole thing, but, it seems you missed that he said he has been trying out other games in that time and now is moving on.

Sadly, we are loosing people like Xand, and keeping people like you.

And maybe if you actually read the whole thread you would notice that he posted today? just a few posts above yours?

[Ungood]

And maybe if you actually read the whole thread you would notice that he posted today? just a few posts above yours?

Sometimes you realize everything you needed to say to someone, you already said.


Sadly, we are loosing people like Xand, and keeping people like you.

[djl]

I think people make a mistake in thinking that they will be interested in playing a game like this forever. Everything has a natural cycle and when it comes to the point where you have more complaints than enjoyment, it's time to move on. It may seem like you're only doing it because of perceived flaws on the part of the game or Turbine, but I believe it's unrealistic to think that there's anything they could do to keep everyone excited indefinitely.

It's a game, not a marriage. If you're bored or fed up, there's plenty of fish in the sea, as they say.

I made this grievous mistake with the MMO I played before I got into DDO. The game had been going downhill for a long time, and I did nothing but complain about it yet I continued to play it anyway even though it had long ceased being like a game to me and felt more like a job.

I had played it for something like 10 years, so I felt obligated not to quit because I didn't want that substantial time investment to go to waste. It took me a long time to wake up and realize that I was deluding myself with that excuse. Once I started DDO, I quit that other game and never looked back.

Bottom line is that if a game starts to feel like a chore or a job instead of a game, it's time to find a new game, regardless of how "loyal" you are to that game or how much time you've poured into it. Games are supposed to be entertainment, they're supposed to be fun. Never ever lose sight of that.

[NaturalHazard]

(remember its is yourself who wants to grind those uber rare total cool and leet thigns?) or quit the game all together. however what you SHOULD NOT do, is to come here and complain about grind that you took on you by yourself.


/end_poor english :D

People will complain, about grind, about bugs about this and that, they are not breaking any forum rules. The most funny posts I find are those people who complain about people complaining lol. Even when I don't agree with what people are complaining about I don't tell them that they shouldnt post about it. Im not some forum police or what ever. If you got a problem with it report them for excessive complaining and b***** lol.

[NaturalHazard]

Bottom line is that if a game starts to feel like a chore or a job instead of a game, it's time to find a new game, regardless of how "loyal" you are to that game or how much time you've poured into it. Games are supposed to be entertainment, they're supposed to be fun. Never ever lose sight of that.

good advice :)

[Ungood]

Bottom line is that if a game starts to feel like a chore or a job instead of a game, it's time to find a new game, regardless of how "loyal" you are to that game or how much time you've poured into it. Games are supposed to be entertainment, they're supposed to be fun. Never ever lose sight of that.

This is a great point.

Irony is, that people who feel that a game needs grind, have already lost sight of this.

[RTN]

I wonder how much of the complaining is because people are used to winning easily and then get frustrated quickly when it gets a little harder.

Shroud normal is still easy if you play smart in part 4 and part 5. It is a little more challenging, but not much. People die when they don't pay attention to the blades. As I actually remember the old days, we used to always run out when the blades got close, just like we have to do now again. This was a good change. Bad play shouldn't succeed. When I've seen failure, it is because people are in there with horrible builds (Con as a dump stat, no fortification, etc.) AND people aren't obeying instructions. Those things should cause failures, even on normal.

Reaver normal is a little too hard--at level, it can now be extremely difficult. Then again, it was too easy before.

I do agree that bravery bonuses for raids should probably be dropped. Now that they have scaled most of the raids to be challenging on elite for capped toons, it makes it much more difficult for players at level. When I'm TRing, groups I've been in often flag, but then skip the raids to keep our Bravery Bonus going. I doubt that's what the devs want.

[Ungood]

I do agree that bravery bonuses for raids should probably be dropped. Now that they have scaled most of the raids to be challenging on elite for capped toons, it makes it much more difficult for players at level. When I'm TRing, groups I've been in often flag, but then skip the raids to keep our Bravery Bonus going. I doubt that's what the devs want.

Yah. This is what I had to do as well. Very Annoying to say the least.

[katz]

xand has 2-3 characters in my guild. and all his other characters (that i knew of) were on my friends list. trust me, he hasn't been playing this month.

this was his "come to the forums to finally say goodbye post"

Xand, you will be missed. tell Dyna hi for me.

[Vormaerin]

This is a great point.

Irony is, that people who feel that a game needs grind, have already lost sight of this.

No... its just a difference of perception. Repeatable content is necessary in every game. So is the chance at improvement. Its not possible for the developers to produce truly new content as fast as players play it.

"Grind" isn't necessary, because "grind" is a state of mind. If I'm running quests I'm not interested in just to get favor, then I am grinding. If I am running Acute Delirium for more bits, a quest I find amusing and enjoy playing, then I don't consider that grinding.

No game needs grind. Every game needs repeatable content. But the point where the latter becomes the former is different for every person. The game actually has LESS grind than it did in the past by most measures.

You don't have to do every quest 3 times to get the favor. You don't have to start at lvl 1. You don't have to do all the quests multiple times to get enough xp to level up.

Many things are Bind to Account now, unlike before.

Yeah, you don't get all the loot you might want with one run through. But you don't 'have' to have loot; you just want to have it.

The only genuine grinds in the game are the flagging requirements, where you are literally blocked from advancement in the quests without getting those things done.

[djl]

The one thing I do wish they'd change is taking the Epic ingredients change a bit further and change all the BtC raid loot (Tod Rings, Belts, Leviks stuff, etc) to BtA. Of course, people would argue it would make things too easy because then people could twink out all their toons, but really... They did it with epic shards/seals and that didn't break the game. There are some people who would initially be upset over this, claiming it was dumbing the game down, but overall I think it would make the majority of people happier and less frustrated. Alternatively, they could reach a happy medium and make the loot BtA on acquire and BtC on equip. Then you could xfer it to whatever toon you want to have it but you wouldn't be able to hotswap gear.

It'd help remove some of the grind if they were to do this, since people would be able to run the characters they want in anything, instead of being forced to play a specific toon because the items they are looking for are BTC. This would also go a long way towards fixing the problem where it takes forever to fill a raid party these days, since people wouldn't be so discouraged to play their healers or any other toons that don't need anything from a specific raid.

Just my 2c on this game's grind.

[Qaliya]

Grinding is not an activity. It's a state of mind.

If you're running quests or raids because you enjoy doing them, you're playing. If you're running them solely because of the rewards you may or may not get from them, and really not enjoying the process involved, you're grinding.

It's pretty much as simple as that.

With my character's first life I went from level 14 to level 20 in a week just doing Crystal Cove. A friend of mine laughed at my doing this because he knew about my general stance against grinding, but I objected: this really didn't feel like grinding to me because I was having a blast doing it. I loved the event, loved the idea of the items I would be able to get, and was shocked to find I was leveling up so fast.

For many other people, though, CC was a pure grind.

As Vormaerin said, it's really more about the person than the content.


The one thing I do wish they'd change is taking the Epic ingredients change a bit further and completely remove "Bind to Character." Everything should either be BtA or unbound. Of course, people would argue it would make things too easy because then people could twink out all their toons, but really... They did it with epic shards/seals and that didn't break the game.

There would be some pretty severe unintended consequences to such a change. For starters, it would greatly discourage chest-passing of rare items. I see people willing to give away BtC items from chests far more than BtA ones, for obvious reasons.

You'd also see a lot more of the "everyone please stand around while I exit and bring in some other character to open the chest", which IMO already happens more than it should.

[Postumus]

I just bought Guild Wars 1 for the amount of new outrageous price of new pack and I'm happy I didn't spent that money on greedy DDO pack policy that just started with scaling prices way too much (1495TP for 4 maps and few different assignments – I won't pay for that.)
I kinda see that turbine just sold with new pack with Artificer (supposed to be free) as a boundle, 1495TP = 550TP (Lammania price and reasonable one) + 995TP (Artificer class) + (-50TP discount for buying 2 items).
I have to say Turbine for that wont see my money aside from leaving game and I really wanted to buy challanges to see them before I will go.


I don't think Turbine's going to lose too much sleep over customers who think $12-$13 for a brand new class is outrageously expensive.

Frankly it never ceases to amaze me how much some people complain about 'greedy' Turbine's prices when they are pretty darn cheap. For about $10/month a player can literally have access to everything (remember the 500tps/month that come with it).

Heck $10 is maybe 1.3 hours of work at the most menial minimum wage job. Seriously, how cheap does it have to get?

[katz]

the price is cheap. but the nickle-and-dimeing is what annoys some people.

[Postumus]

Look at your friend: He did not come here to "play a game and have some fun". he came here to climb to the top, and thus he focused on getting a good rep for himself, this was beyond just questing, he focused on being known as a solid player, did his "homework", and treated a game like it was a Paid Project, not just a job. he was driven to be in the "top guilds, and thus focused on being solid and good player, ergo, rubbing the elbows of the right people to get into the whole high end raiding scene.

Good for him. That is a great thing to do.

Good for him? I read this kind of thing and recoil in horror and loathing.

It's a friggin' game, not a job or a paid project. People that take these fleeting, virtual accomplishments waaaay too seriously are often the same ones who I encounter who are freaking out on other players in PUGs, squelching people right and left, then running to the forums to spend more of the precious minutes of their lives complaining about how other people don't take it as seriously as they should.

A lot of players are use their drive and energy for RL accomplishments and play DDO to relax and unwind from the actual pressures of work, bosses, employees, family, etc and not the self-fabricated virtual drama of a 'the worst PUG evarrr!"