Warchanter 14 Bard/6 Fighter - Kensei or Stalwart?

[Ganak]

Finalizing a 14 Warchanter/6 Fighter battlebard build and want feedback on whether to go Kensei I or Stalwart Defender I, and would like general build feedback.


Background:
This is a TR of an existing human 14 Warchanter II/6 Kensei I Fighter battlebard (Manak Bloodscreamer). He was rolled about the time the Shroud was released (4 years ago or so?) as a 12/4 TWF stunning blow build. This was a pioneering build at the time and was the character I ran when we were setting game speed shroud records (at level 16 no less you whippersnappers). I also currently have a pure 20 Spellsinger (1600 sp/40 dc), and this build is intended to be quite different in bard terms.

When deciding on changes to the build, I strongly considered different splashes (16/4, 14/4/2, etc), but the 14/6 works out the best for me. I'm dropping SB from the equation.


Build Philosophy:

Going TWF with a specialization in Warhammers for purely flavor reasons.
For these type of builds, THF makes so much more sense from an optimization perspective.
I believe Battlebards who skimp charisma and cannot perform buffing/healing/facinate duties are nothing but gimp melee.
Going half elf for rogue dilante and 3d6 sneak damage.



Stat line (34 point):
Str: 16
Dex: 14 (have +3 tome for GTWF)
Con: 16
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Chr: 15 (have +3 tome)


+2 tomes rest. 3 points into str and 2 into chr for level ups.

Skills (maxed):
UMD
Perform
Haggle
Concentration

Nearly maxed in Balance, and about 10 points into Jump.



Feats:

For Kensei:
B1 - Toughness
F2 - WF: Bludgeon (required for WC and Kensei)
B3 - Extend
B4
F5 - Power Attack (required for WC)
B6 - TWF
B7
B8
F9 - Maximize
B10
B11
F12 - ITWF, OTWF
F13
F14 - Weapon Specialization: Bludgeon (required for Kensei)
B15 - GTWF
B16
B17
B18 - Improved Crit: Bludgeon
B19
B20



For Stalwart:
B1 - Toughness
F2 - WF: Bludgeon
B3 - Extend
B4
F5 - Power Attack
B6 - TWF
B7
B8
F9 - Maximize
B10
B11
F12 - ITWF, OTWF
F13
F14 - Diehard (required for Stalwart)
B15 - GTWF
B16
B17
B18 - Improved Crit: Bludgeon
B19
B20



Benefits Comparison:

Kensei
+2 dmg from Weapon Spec feat
Kensei +1 to-hit, +1 dmg, +2 crit dmg (before multiplier)


Stalwart
+2 Str (in stance) = +1 to-hit/+1 dmg
+2 Con (in stance) = +20 hp
+10% HP (in stance, should add about 50 hp
+1 saves (in stance)
Takes 4 less enhancement points than kensei


There are additional benefits of each PrC that are irrelevant to me that I did not list.


So in summary, Kensei will give a net +2 dmg and better crits vs about 70 more hp via stalwart.


I am leaning towards stalwart. Would love to hear feedback, thx!

[Arshan]

Firstly i would withdraw some Charisma. I had the exact same build (on a warforged version) and with a 10 charisma at start i was managing easily some 70ish fascinate, so you could get more str/con.

I'd personnaly drop Maximize and OTWF. Personnal choice certainly but as a warchanter you should perform pretty well without maximize. I mean i prefer using my pots than my heal spells, but that's rather personal too.

I think stalwart is obviously a better choice than kensai especially if you're willing to drop str and con for more charisma.

For stalwart pass, i would take shiled profeciency over diehard. Seems more useful to me after all. Indeed you can reach a pretty nice amount of HP if you build well (around 650 base, even 750ish stalwart) so i think if you happen to tank, shield profeciency can be nice. I would take some intimidate then too, since you don't plan to gimp your charisma.
I really think you can make a pretty nice little tanky machine, which can still sing and do its bard job.

[maddmatt70]

14 bard 6 fighter (Stalwart) is the best melee battle bard in the game likely especially if you do epic MA on a regular basis and to a lesser extent epic lob. I do not know why kensai even enters in the discussion. 750ish hp on a fairly heavy dps battle bard is just plain old sexy. Now 14 bard 4 rogue 2 fighter offers more dps, but has a little bit more issue in places like epic MA..

[Aerendil]

Yep, my vote is for Stalwart as well. +70ish hps shores up one of the main weakness of a Bard - that of low hps.
And you still get the extra damage benefit from Weapon Specialization after all, so your dps will be quite good.

Shame Dwarves don't get warhammers as their racial weapon choice - you'd think they would. And that would go very well with wpn spec and inspire courage.

[Gorbadoc]

I believe Battlebards who skimp charisma and cannot perform buffing/healing/facinate duties are nothing but gimp melee.Then why splash?

Your maximum healing potential takes a huge hit. That's six fewer points of base healing from Cure Crit and Mass Cure Mod. It's also a lot fewer spell points. Then there's the difficulty of cramming in Song Magic and Wand/Scroll Mastery when you have another class's prestige enhancement to worry about. Any one of these consequences of splashing hurts your healing far more than running with 12 base charisma.

Then there are your buffs. They'll have shorter durations, and you'll still have fewer spell points and songs per rest with which to refresh them. I notice you listed Extend. Suppose, for the sake of understanding the compromise you make, that you saved yourself the feat and spell points and instead increased all your durations with six additional bard levels.

I agree about bards needing to be able to use songs. I keep thinking of building a 12 virt/ 7 assassin/ 1 barbarian for fun, in part to push the limits of handling like a different class while incorporating fantastic song-based CC (not to mention some admittedly mediocre song-based healing and buffs).

[maddmatt70]

Then why splash?

Your maximum healing potential takes a huge hit. That's six fewer points of base healing from Cure Crit and Mass Cure Mod. It's also a lot fewer spell points. Then there's the difficulty of cramming in Song Magic and Wand/Scroll Mastery when you have another class's prestige enhancement to worry about. Any one of these consequences of splashing hurts your healing far more than running with 12 base charisma.

Then there are your buffs. They'll have shorter durations, and you'll still have fewer spell points and songs per rest with which to refresh them. I notice you listed Extend. Suppose, for the sake of understanding the compromise you make, that you saved yourself the feat and spell points and instead increased all your durations with six additional bard levels.

I agree about bards needing to be able to use songs. I keep thinking of building a 12 virt/ 7 assassin/ 1 barbarian for fun, in part to push the limits of handling like a different class while incorporating fantastic song-based CC (not to mention some admittedly mediocre song-based healing and buffs).

Obvoiusly true regarding why splash? but if splashing what does healing with cure lt wounds mass and cure crit and heal scrolls really give you that just healing with heal scrolls would not. As is its losing weapon specialization which would be two more points of dps vs. maximize.. Is this a self healing amp build?

[Arkadios]

If you have a +3 cha tome I suggest dropping base cha to 11 or 12 and upping str/con, so even with a cha of (11base+3tome+6item+2enhancemnts) you get a +6mod which is what my capped bard has (even though it's pure) as long as you then max out umd and perform you can easily hit 60-70. Other than that I suggest Stalwart and pick up shield mastery if possible (is it a pre-req? if so drop diehard) Extremely nice feat on almost any toon and you should get some nice DR (maybe even AC?) when you use a shield.

[Aashrym]

edit: double post

[Aashrym]

I was going to comment on maximize on the build, then changed my mind, then decided to comment anyway. :D

I can see maybe using maximize for some emergency healing with cure serious wounds. That's not going to be any different than a ranger doing the same thing, which is common. I would really recommend focusing on wand and scroll mastery for the healing others part of the build tho. SP healing does take a hit with caster level on cure crit, mass cure light, and you give up access to mass cure mod.

I would also agree that stalwart is the way to go.

[Aerendil]

I agree about bards needing to be able to use songs. I keep thinking of building a 12 virt/ 7 assassin/ 1 barbarian for fun, in part to push the limits of handling like a different class while incorporating fantastic song-based CC (not to mention some admittedly mediocre song-based healing and buffs).

I've commented before that Virt is fortunate in that it's one of the few PrEs where deep splashes don't affect it's performance (since all PrE abilities involve Perform as your main DC. The only drawback would be a short duration Sustaining Song, but no biggie). It would, however, affect your Bard-related abilities significantly.
14 Bard / 6 Assassin would be a bit better I think, but /shrug. Interesting concept nonetheless. Enthrall + rad II weaponry with 4d6 sneak damage + Sustaining Song + trapskills + inspire courage + good UMD makes for one really impressive solo character. In groups, however, I'm not sure how feasible it would be. Especially as a Half Elf pure Bard with Rogue dile brings almost the same amount of sneak damage to the table with all the benefits of 20 levels of Bard as well...

But I digress :)

[zwiebelring]

If you splash heavily with 6 Ftr levels, why not go Half Orc? You'll get Power Attack Enhancments and more STR. Base CHA + item for CHA 16 is all you need for 6th lvl. spells but you will not even get this lvl. So why bother about a CHA that high?

Take Half Orc, put CHA up to 7 or 9 and live of enhancements and low lvl. booster till lvl. 11 for spellcasting abilities.

Abilities:
STR- 19
DEX - 14
CON - 16
INT - 10 or 8 at CHA 9
WIS - 8
CHA - 7 or 9 (9 is easier in early game to have more spell levels)

I'd put all lvl. ups in STR

Your Fascinate DC is high enough. If you are concerned I guess even Skill Focus: Perform has more utility than Maximize Spell. If you are not planning in high heal amp. I'd go Half Orc.

[Aashrym]

If you splash heavily with 6 Ftr levels, why not go Half Orc? You'll get Power Attack Enhancments and more STR. Base CHA + item for CHA 16 is all you need for 6th lvl. spells but you will not even get this lvl. So why bother about a CHA that high?

Take Half Orc, put CHA up to 7 or 9 and live of enhancements and low lvl. booster till lvl. 11 for spellcasting abilities.

Abilities:
STR- 19
DEX - 14
CON - 16
INT - 10 or 8 at CHA 9
WIS - 8
CHA - 7 or 9 (9 is easier in early game to have more spell levels)

I'd put all lvl. ups in STR

Your Fascinate DC is high enough. If you are concerned I guess even Skill Focus: Perform has more utility than Maximize Spell. If you are not planning in high heal amp. I'd go Half Orc.

I prefer helf rogue dilettante for TWF too. SA and damage boost works well for a lot of builds.

[Gorbadoc]

I've commented before that Virt is fortunate in that it's one of the few PrEs where deep splashes don't affect it's performance (since all PrE abilities involve Perform as your main DC. The only drawback would be a short duration Sustaining Song, but no biggie). It would, however, affect your Bard-related abilities significantly.
14 Bard / 6 Assassin would be a bit better I think, but /shrug. Interesting concept nonetheless. Enthrall + rad II weaponry with 4d6 sneak damage + Sustaining Song + trapskills + inspire courage + good UMD makes for one really impressive solo character. In groups, however, I'm not sure how feasible it would be. Especially as a Half Elf pure Bard with Rogue dile brings almost the same amount of sneak damage to the table with all the benefits of 20 levels of Bard as well...

But I digress :)

Level 7 is a milestone for rogues: They get another sneak attack die, another tier of Subtle Backstab, another tier of Sneak Attack Training, and another tier of their Action Boosts. Actually, level 8 gives Improved Uncanny Dodge and another +BAB, so maybe the build should be 12bard/8rogue.

Missing bard levels 13 and 14 cuts into casting and buffing, but those were already relegated to "secondary" status by virtue of the build not being pure. Part of my aim with this theoretical build is to avoid being redundant with a pure bard.

VirtuosoII/AssassinI actually should do okay in a party or even a raid group. The worst situation would be in a quest where all the monsters have blanket immunities and there's already a pure assassin and a pure bard in the party. That would make this build's buffs and CC redundant, while the build's DPS and scroll healing would be matched by the other rogue (I actually thought of this build BEFORE rogues got Wand Scroll Mastery, though). Of course, even in those uncommon circumstances, the DPS and scroll-healing are still a contribution, and Sustaining Song falls under the "Every little bit helps" category (provided it's not disrupting a spellsinger-- stupid overwriting bug).

But I digress as well.

[Ganak]

I appreciate all the great feedback, I'm TR'ing this weekend!

[NovaNZ]

GL with your TR Ganak.

This OP (u are given shared credit for idea) prompted me to post a 32pt dwarf Bard14/Fgt6 THF (SD) build under specialists. Self buffed HP = 795.

Hope u enjoy your build heaps.