DoS Shield Feats

[Tsuarok]

So SDs get a ton more feats, allowing them to fit in all the shield feats, all the THF feats, PA IC:slash, IC: Blud, a few fighter damage feats and still have room left for tons of toughness feats, granting them vastly higher hps than a pally.

DoS gets the circle against evil (useless with the guild buffs), Shield of Faith (useless with a protection item), and Glorious Stand, which is nice but too short and with too long a cooldown to be really useful.

I feel that to even the field a bit, the DoS line should grant the feats

DoS I: Improved Shield Bash
DoS II: Shield Mastery
DoS III: Improved Shield Mastery

This will allow them to grab the THF feats, PA, and IC x2 (so that they won't be totally useless in the vast majority of quests in the game) and a single toughness. A fighter will still have vastly more hps, but this will be somewhat balanced by LoH and pally saves, immunities, etc.

[jcTharin]

DoS gets the circle against evil (useless with the guild buffs).

The guild buff does not work. The circle against evil ability is still useless though.

[elraido]

I feel that to even the field a bit, the DoS line should grant the feats

DoS I: Improved Shield Bash
DoS II: Shield Mastery
DoS III: Improved Shield Mastery

.

That isn't a bad idea. Might be a little over powering though. It has been an issue I have wanted them to address for a while now. A human paladin only gets so many feats...all the changes that have been made, while nice, are much better for a fighter because of the amount of feats needed. Especially since they redid the Epic Chimeras Fang.


Most defenders (if they went the EFang route) have something like this:
Power Attack
Combat Ex
Shield Mastery
Toughness
DragonmarkI
DragonmarkII
DragonmarkIII
Improved Crit Slashing

That means they are missing out the following ones a fighter can have:
Shield Bash
Improved Shield Mastery
Bastard Sword (so they aren't just locked into the E Fang as a weapon)
THFI
THFII
THFIII

[Zenthalas]

So SDs get a ton more feats, allowing them to fit in all the shield feats, all the THF feats, PA IC:slash, IC: Blud, a few fighter damage feats and still have room left for tons of toughness feats, granting them vastly higher hps than a pally.

DoS gets the circle against evil (useless with the guild buffs), Shield of Faith (useless with a protection item), and Glorious Stand, which is nice but too short and with too long a cooldown to be really useful.

I feel that to even the field a bit, the DoS line should grant the feats

DoS I: Improved Shield Bash
DoS II: Shield Mastery
DoS III: Improved Shield Mastery

This will allow them to grab the THF feats, PA, and IC x2 (so that they won't be totally useless in the vast majority of quests in the game) and a single toughness. A fighter will still have vastly more hps, but this will be somewhat balanced by LoH and pally saves, immunities, etc.

Ok well while were at it let's give the SD 4 uses of an uniterruptable full heal spell, the ability to click another spell an increase our threat generation even further, give the pure SD incredibly high saves, give the SD an aura that will improve his/her AC and the AC of those around them, ohhh the aura should also give bonuses to saves etc.

To me it looks like you want to homogenize the 2 tanking pre's. Guess what they are different for a reason and both have their strengths. Pick one or the other, or make one of each but /not signed.

[Atrus]

Ok well while were at it let's give the SD 4 uses of an uniterruptable full heal spell, the ability to click another spell an increase our threat generation even further, give the pure SD incredibly high saves, give the SD an aura that will improve his/her AC and the AC of those around them, ohhh the aura should also give bonuses to saves etc.

To me it looks like you want to homogenize the 2 tanking pre's. Guess what they are different for a reason and both have their strengths. Pick one or the other, or make one of each but /not signed.

I have to agree. Currently I think the two PrE's are pretty well balanced with each other. Paladins get amazing saves, and many useful magic based abilities that allow them to be much more self sufficient. To counter this fighters get the extra feats which allow them to get extra useful abilities that paladins would have to prioritize.

[sephiroth1084]

Ok well while were at it let's give the SD 4 uses of an uniterruptable full heal spell, the ability to click another spell an increase our threat generation even further, give the pure SD incredibly high saves, give the SD an aura that will improve his/her AC and the AC of those around them, ohhh the aura should also give bonuses to saves etc.

To me it looks like you want to homogenize the 2 tanking pre's. Guess what they are different for a reason and both have their strengths. Pick one or the other, or make one of each but /not signed.
You're comparing the class to the PrE. Yeah, the fighters' main strength comes from feat selection, so giving away feats to their competition within the same role is kind of treading on their toes, but the two PrEs are not balanced, and DoS paladins were incredibly feat starved even before we got 6 feats that were made to be worth taking!


I have to agree. Currently I think the two PrE's are pretty well balanced with each other. Paladins get amazing saves, and many useful magic based abilities that allow them to be much more self sufficient. To counter this fighters get the extra feats which allow them to get extra useful abilities that paladins would have to prioritize.
The PrEs aren't balanced against each other.

SD:
+3 AC
DR 6/-
+6 Intimidate

DoS:
+1 AC and saves on aura (mentioning, but not making a big deal, about the fact that an SD standing next to a paladin gains this also)
+1 LoH
2 semi-pointless spell-like ability buffs--one paladins can slot and use as a spell normally in otherwise wasted spell slots, and the other is replicated by a commonly worn item and these burn turns, which have more important uses
Glorious Stand, which while amazing while active, has too short an uptime and too long a cooldown to be of much consequence

If GS were improved to be more generally useful, then I'd rate the two as being kind of close, but the SD still looks a lot better, as it is providing +2 AC, +6 Intimidate and DR 6/- over the paladin who is getting +1 saves and an extra mega-Heal spell to use per rest.

Personally, I feel that DoS should grant either Improved Shield Bash or Shield Mastery as part of the PrE at tier II or III. Just the one extra feat. That isn't really encroaching on the fighter's territory as they are still likely getting a lot more HP than the paladin by virtue of being able to take 1-6 more Toughness feats, or are getting all sorts of benefits from dragonmarks, or THF feats.

The reason that DoS and SD seem balanced is because paladins themselves gain a lot that works into the PrE, while fighters don't in such a direct manner. That doesn't mean the PrEs are balanced, though.

[noinfo]

So SDs get a ton more feats, allowing them to fit in all the shield feats, all the THF feats, PA IC:slash, IC: Blud, a few fighter damage feats and still have room left for tons of toughness feats, granting them vastly higher hps than a pally.

DoS gets the circle against evil (useless with the guild buffs), Shield of Faith (useless with a protection item), and Glorious Stand, which is nice but too short and with too long a cooldown to be really useful.

I feel that to even the field a bit, the DoS line should grant the feats

DoS I: Improved Shield Bash
DoS II: Shield Mastery
DoS III: Improved Shield Mastery

This will allow them to grab the THF feats, PA, and IC x2 (so that they won't be totally useless in the vast majority of quests in the game) and a single toughness. A fighter will still have vastly more hps, but this will be somewhat balanced by LoH and pally saves, immunities, etc.

I would like to have seen along the lines of
DOS 1: Towershield
DOS 2: Bastard Sword
DOS 3: Improved Shield Mastery (if shield mastery taken) or (improved shield bash)

[sephiroth1084]

I would like to have seen along the lines of
DOS 1: Towershield Disagree here. I think it's fair for fighters to have the exclusive rights to this. If nothing else, it leaves the 2 fighter splash with some pull still over the monk splash, as fighter actually grants 3 feats.
DOS 2: Bastard Sword Definitely not. Many paladins don't bother with these at all, and the few who would, probably want to be using the Epic Chimera's Fang, which grants this anyway.
DOS 3: Improved Shield Mastery (if shield mastery taken) or (improved shield bash)
I think it should just be Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash (not as a choice, but just one of them as the auto-granted feat)--don't take the feat, or swap it out when you pick up the PrE III.
Comments.

[Alternative]

Ok well while were at it let's give the SD 4 uses of an uniterruptable full heal spell

Hey know what? my fighter can pot heal for 330hp without being interrupted, and more than just 4 times!

Also for the record, lay on hands isn't a full heal as it doesnt restore anything other than hit points.

[noinfo]

Comments.

I would like to have seen along the lines of
DOS 1: Towershield Disagree here. I think it's fair for fighters to have the exclusive rights to this. If nothing else, it leaves the 2 fighter splash with some pull still over the monk splash, as fighter actually grants 3 feats.
DOS 2: Bastard Sword Definitely not. Many paladins don't bother with these at all, and the few who would, probably want to be using the Epic Chimera's Fang, which grants this anyway.
DOS 3: Improved Shield Mastery (if shield mastery taken) or (improved shield bash)
I think it should just be Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash (not as a choice, but just one of them as the auto-granted feat)--don't take the feat, or swap it out when you pick up the PrE III.


1. Fighters already get enough feats without this being a be all and end all for it. On top of this Fighter enhancements and now feats (mobility) make it easier to flesh out the dex on these anyway.

2. I am not talking about Paladins in general I am talking about DOS and of they had the option I am betting they would. Bastard sword adds signficant dps when using a shield with the two handedfighting feats. The description says it is the tradional Knight sword and that is exactly what a DOS is. Unfortunately they are so feat starved that there is no chance for them to afford the feat and those who go for the eFang while a good choice are going to be even more feat starved and are unlikely to have the 2 handed feats to back it up. This fits in very nicely with the concept.

3. Don't really care either way.

[PestWulf]

The paladin is both feat and enhancement point starved, especially when it comes to DOS. I don't think however giving them feats at every DOS pre is the way to go. The thing about the pally is it is very party friendly in terms of what it brings to the table, especially for other melee characters. Lion heart, Circle vs. Evil and resists are basically all a fellow melee needs to thrive. immunity to fear, command and 30 point elemental resits make them invaluable and very self sufficient.

I personally think they should get the Shield Mastery and possibly the Improved shield mastery feats with DOS 2 and 3, as well as a re-work of their enhancement point requirements and costs.

But I think people aren't giving mass shield and circle vs. evil enough props for what they do. A Paladin is a Fighter's best friend IMO. He covers all the fighters shortfalls and makes the SD better at what he does best. I think a little love is definitely in order for the DOS feat shortage, but I'd also like to see enhancements to their value in a party which is where they really outclass the SD.

[Tsuarok]

The paladin is both feat and enhancement point starved, especially when it comes to DOS. I don't think however giving them feats at every DOS pre is the way to go. The thing about the pally is it is very party friendly in terms of what it brings to the table, especially for other melee characters. Lion heart, Circle vs. Evil and resists are basically all a fellow melee needs to thrive. immunity to fear, command and 30 point elemental resits make them invaluable and very self sufficient.

I personally think they should get the Shield Mastery and possibly the Improved shield mastery feats with DOS 2 and 3, as well as a re-work of their enhancement point requirements and costs.

But I think people aren't giving mass shield and circle vs. evil enough props for what they do. A Paladin is a Fighter's best friend IMO. He covers all the fighters shortfalls and makes the SD better at what he does best. I think a little love is definitely in order for the DOS feat shortage, but I'd also like to see enhancements to their value in a party which is where they really outclass the SD.

If you think that paladins should be support for fighters, what is the point of the DoS pre? It is currently set up to produce an inferior tank. If it was to be tank support, cool, give the aura something that absorbs damage or redirects it to the paladin, to take the pressure off the tank. Or have LoH regen. Or something else support oriented. As it is, the PrE is set up to directly tank. Make it competitive or make it something else that is useful.

Fighters are perfectly capable of getting sufficient saves. It's just easier for paladins. Anything above saving on a 2 is superfluous.

And even with the shield feats given away to paladins, there are tons of useful feats for a fighter to get an edge over a paladin. Three dragonmarks for the fang, three THF feats, IC for both your weapon and your shield, PA, Dodge, CE, the weapon specialization/focus feats, Imp. Sunder, Imp. Trip, Stunning Blow, the new mobility, PL:Paladin, quick draw. Toughness, over and over again. All of these give a fighter a competitive edge.

The problem with the paladin is that there are not enough feat slots to fit in more than the tanking basics. Which, in most quests in the game, leaves the DoS paladin without a role and without the ability to contribute.

Anyway, for those of you who say that the paladins abilities make up the difference, I think you are vastly overrating their usefulness.

Now, I think I'm gonna role up a nice SD.

[JOTMON]

DoS gets the circle against evil (useless with the guild buffs), Shield of Faith (useless with a protection item), and Glorious Stand, which is nice but too short and with too long a cooldown to be really useful.


All Paladins should get Shield mastery as a class grated feat regardless of PRE's.

Circle of protection against evil doesnt work, even the guild one... fix this..
Shield of faith is useless - make it a insight bonus bonus instead of deflection.
Glorious stand timer is too short, increasing time would be usefull.

Don't see any benefit to any other changes, would push towards unbalancing.

[sephiroth1084]

1. Fighters already get enough feats without this being a be all and end all for it. On top of this Fighter enhancements and now feats (mobility) make it easier to flesh out the dex on these anyway. But the 2-fighter splash is largely attractive because it grants 2 feats and tower shield proficiency, and I feel like that should remain as an attractive option. Paladins don't need to be able to use towers, and the fact that they often don't means that heavy shields in the game see some play, which they should. I agree that paladins need some boosts in regards to feats, but don't feel this is one of the ways to do it.


2. I am not talking about Paladins in general I am talking about DOS and of they had the option I am betting they would. Bastard sword adds signficant dps when using a shield with the two handedfighting feats. The description says it is the tradional Knight sword and that is exactly what a DOS is. Unfortunately they are so feat starved that there is no chance for them to afford the feat and those who go for the eFang while a good choice are going to be even more feat starved and are unlikely to have the 2 handed feats to back it up. This fits in very nicely with the concept. I know you are, but you're making the assumption that DoS paladins are going to pick up the THF, or that this feat will encourage them to do so, whereas many builds don't bother, and without them the bastard sword is worse than the khopesh, scimitar and rapier. Would it be nice to be able to focus on those without also having to pick up bastard sword proficiency? Sure. However, bastard swords are not central to the theme of the DoS. Shields are, which is why I'm on board for giving paladins Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash, but not sure they should be getting both. Part of the design behind giving a character few feats is to force them to have to make decisions: Which feats do you take? Do you multiclass? What can you afford to lose?

And if paladins want the eFang, they don't need proficiency because that is granted by the sword itself. In fact, paladins are in a better position to simply use the eFang and nothing else than fighters are since pure pallies can drop Improved Crit and 2 other feats (one of which is khopesh proficiency on many characters) for the dragonmarks and end up with a Silver, good-aligned weapon with a red slot, while fighters necessarily need to put Good in that red slot, or an eDA crystal.





But I think people aren't giving mass shield and circle vs. evil enough props for what they do. A Paladin is a Fighter's best friend IMO. He covers all the fighters shortfalls and makes the SD better at what he does best. I think a little love is definitely in order for the DOS feat shortage, but I'd also like to see enhancements to their value in a party which is where they really outclass the SD.
Unclear what you are saying here.

In any case, paladins get Magic Circle against Evil as a 3rd level spell with really no competition for those spell slots besides Prayer, which does basically nothing for paladins (luck bonuses covered by Voice/Head of Good Fortune/blue slot and Divine Favor), so there's no reason not to be carrying this spell as a paladin.

As for Mass Shield of Faith, if you want AC, you are probably wearing a Protection +5 item already anyway, because you don't want to rely on a paladin carrying and using this. If you are the paladin, you don't want to rely on this because it eats up turn undead which you want to be using for Divine Might, Divine Righteousness and possible Glorious Stand, not in giving yourself a buff that you can be carrying as gear. Also, you are at risk of burning more than one turn if you die and are giving yourself a longer recovery time after dying before being to wade right back into the fight.

Not good clicky abilities.

[noinfo]

But the 2-fighter splash is largely attractive because it grants 2 feats and tower shield proficiency, and I feel like that should remain as an attractive option. Paladins don't need to be able to use towers, and the fact that they often don't means that heavy shields in the game see some play, which they should. I agree that paladins need some boosts in regards to feats, but don't feel this is one of the ways to do it.

The 2 fighter splash gives more than just tower shield, it gives +1 Str and haste boost. This is more than enough to make it attractive.




I know you are, but you're making the assumption that DoS paladins are going to pick up the THF, or that this feat will encourage them to do so, whereas many builds don't bother, and without them the bastard sword is worse than the khopesh, scimitar and rapier. Would it be nice to be able to focus on those without also having to pick up bastard sword proficiency? Sure. However, bastard swords are not central to the theme of the DoS. Shields are, which is why I'm on board for giving paladins Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash, but not sure they should be getting both. Part of the design behind giving a character few feats is to force them to have to make decisions: Which feats do you take? Do you multiclass? What can you afford to lose?


If shields were a central theme they would be granted Towershield proficiency. The central theme of the DOS is that of a traditional knight and the bastard sword as it states is the weapon of the knight. Are you really going to say that they are still not feat starved after this? Those that take a feat in a weapon of some type would be able to redirect it to two handed, though no one would be forcing anything here. Even after bastard sword and tower shield a 2 fighter splash is looking good.




And if paladins want the eFang, they don't need proficiency because that is granted by the sword itself. In fact, paladins are in a better position to simply use the eFang and nothing else than fighters are since pure pallies can drop Improved Crit and 2 other feats (one of which is khopesh proficiency on many characters) for the dragonmarks and end up with a Silver, good-aligned weapon with a red slot, while fighters necessarily need to put Good in that red slot, or an eDA crystal.



I am really not sure how you would justify the statement that pallies are in a better position to use it than fighters at all. The very very small advantage of being able to keep a red slot for maybe addamantine is well over shadowed now that artificers or someone with umd can simply put another metal type on it anyway. Dropping IC slash will give you no other weapon alternatives and what other feat would you drop? I am not trying to make character build suggestions regarding that particular issue but its not a direction I would take.

[Feithlin]

You're comparing the class to the PrE. Yeah, the fighters' main strength comes from feat selection, so giving away feats to their competition within the same role is kind of treading on their toes, but the two PrEs are not balanced, and DoS paladins were incredibly feat starved even before we got 6 feats that were made to be worth taking!


I disagree. You can't compare 2 PrEs without taking the classes into account, because PrEs are class specializations.
The only strength of fighters is their feats. If paladins can get all the nice tanking feats without having to choose, SD become pointless.



The PrEs aren't balanced against each other.

SD:
+3 AC
DR 6/-
+6 Intimidate

DoS:
+1 AC and saves on aura (mentioning, but not making a big deal, about the fact that an SD standing next to a paladin gains this also)
+1 LoH
2 semi-pointless spell-like ability buffs--one paladins can slot and use as a spell normally in otherwise wasted spell slots, and the other is replicated by a commonly worn item and these burn turns, which have more important uses
Glorious Stand, which while amazing while active, has too short an uptime and too long a cooldown to be of much consequence


Now lets include class features because, as I said, PrEs are class specializations and should be compared taking everything into account:

DoS:
up to +5 AC and +5 saves from aura.
+Cha to all saves.
The potential to self heal.
A boost to damage (DM) in addition to stance.
Spells that boost to-hit, damage and doublestrike.
+100% threat clickies.

SD:
up to +2 to-hit and +5-6 damage from fighter feats.
up to +3 MDB on armors and tower shields.
potential for more toughness feats.

Sum it up and you'll see they're on par. The max AC of a DoS is the same as a SD if the SD doesn't benefit from a DoS aura (which is almost always the case), while the DoS has much higher saves.
Before the change to stances, the main benefit of fighters was their HP, but now DoS can reach a way enough value.
The ONLY benefit SD keep, while sacrificing saves, self healing and a threat boost, is the possibility to slot more defensive feats.



The reason that DoS and SD seem balanced is because paladins themselves gain a lot that works into the PrE, while fighters don't in such a direct manner. That doesn't mean the PrEs are balanced, though.

See above. You shouldn't compare 2 PrEs, but 2 Class+PrEs, because it's a package: you can't separate them.

*Edit: However, I think AP reductions on DoS requisites would be fair, so they can benefit more from their class features.

[sephiroth1084]

The 2 fighter splash gives more than just tower shield, it gives +1 Str and haste boost. This is more than enough to make it attractive. +1 Str and Haste Boost I vs. the paladin capstone of up to +3d6 damage and the ability have a rather large variety of weapons bypass relevant DRs? Cale basically reenforces my point--that one of the big advantages fighters have to weigh against those of paladins is their feats. Granting too many freebies, particularly ones that are inherently fighter-centric, encroaches on the fighter's territory. I suggest either Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash (I'm actually leaning more toward SM) because they fit the theme of the PrE very closely--there are benefits to using a shield tied into the PrE, it is defensive in nature, etc...

Of course paladins could benefit from Bastard Sword Proficiency, Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Bash and Tower Shield Proficiency, but I'm not looking to have DoS brought on par with SD, both in terms of what the PrEs grant as well as what each class has to offer...my intent is to give paladins who pick up DoS a slight boost to compensate for the rather large number of feats that are central to that type of character.Maybe we just have different ideas about what is too much here.


If shields were a central theme they would be granted Towershield proficiency. The central theme of the DOS is that of a traditional knight and the bastard sword as it states is the weapon of the knight. Are you really going to say that they are still not feat starved after this? Those that take a feat in a weapon of some type would be able to redirect it to two handed, though no one would be forcing anything here. Even after bastard sword and tower shield a 2 fighter splash is looking good.
Actually, I'd venture a guess that longswords are more the traditional knight weapons, and that heavy or light shields, the chosen bulwarks of your common knight. DoS promotes (not quite as strongly as SD) the use of a shield. It has absolutely nothing to do with bastard swords, other than the tangential association of bastard swords with S&B characters due to its gaining glancing blows. Sure, paladins could benefit from using tower shields, but I don't think they all need to get them. I'm fine with that being a choice. Pick up the feat, or splash 2 fighter. Giving away TSP dramatically reduces the stock on named heavy shields, which I don't think is a good thing. This feels to me like more of a central, major choice that the player should be forced to make, rather than a freebie.




I am really not sure how you would justify the statement that pallies are in a better position to use it than fighters at all. The very very small advantage of being able to keep a red slot for maybe addamantine is well over shadowed now that artificers or someone with umd can simply put another metal type on it anyway. Dropping IC slash will give you no other weapon alternatives and what other feat would you drop? I am not trying to make character build suggestions regarding that particular issue but its not a direction I would take.
A paladin could more easily get away with using the eFang and nothing but the eFang than a fighter. For one, because each Fang could be bypassing 2 different types of DR, vs. the single type that fighters would have, so a paladin could pick up 1 or 2 Fangs and be more or less set, while a fighter would need more like 3-4 of them. Not a huge deal I suppose, and the fact that fighters have the feats to spend to both get the Fang upgraded fully and to support it with THF and Bashing...sure, my statement was not accurate. I'll admit that.



I disagree. You can't compare 2 PrEs without taking the classes into account, because PrEs are class specializations.
The only strength of fighters is their feats. If paladins can get all the nice tanking feats without having to choose, SD become pointless.
The reason I'm comparing the 2 PrEs is because they are designed to be compared. They are very similar, providing many of the same abilities, possessing many of the same requirements, but the DoS requires 5 more AP, only 1/3 of the AP spent on prerequisites is central to the character concept (that is, stuff you would pick up anyway--Bulwark), and requires a feat, which you may or may not want (likely want). SD's prerequisite enhancements that you would be getting anyway cover about half of the AP required, and the PrE requires 2 feats. Perhaps an extra feat would be worth 5+ AP in a different comparison, but fighters get 11 bonus feats.

Meanwhile, SD grants a big bonus to Intimidate, grants passive DR, and provides more AC than its cousin PrE, which provides a little bit of extra self-healing, a small bonus to saves, and some useless-to-incredibly narrow extra abilities. DoS costs more and provides less. My argument is not that it should provide as much, but that it could stand to provide more than it does now, and my suggestion for that was to give it Shield Mastery. That doesn't close the gap between a paladin's feats and a fighter's, it doesn't tread on the fighter's toes, and it doesn't eclipse the SD PrE.



Now lets include class features because, as I said, PrEs are class specializations and should be compared taking everything into account:

DoS:
up to +5 AC and +5 saves from aura.
+Cha to all saves.
The potential to self heal.For a really strong version of this, you need to spend feats. Fighters can use Silver Flame pots, which come close to approximating the self-healing here. Not a class feature, but not something to be discounted either.
A boost to damage (DM) in addition to stance. Which stretches their stats thinner, is not always on and draws from a limited resource pool that other abilities are also drawing from.
Spells that boost to-hit, damage and doublestrike. These basically approximate what the fighter is getting on all the time.
+100% threat clickies. See comment on DM about resources, though, yes, this is a big deal.

SD:
up to +2 to-hit and +5-6 damage from fighter feats. +3 Str amounts to more attack and damage as well.
up to +3 MDB on armors and tower shields.
potential for more toughness feats. Rather big deal, as that can be as much as an extra 120 HP*20%.
Haste Boost is a rather big deal that you left out here, and didn't bother including the 10% doublestrike on the capstone that matches Zeal.

Sum it up and you'll see they're on par. The max AC of a DoS is the same as a SD if the SD doesn't benefit from a DoS aura (which is almost always the case), while the DoS has much higher saves.
Before the change to stances, the main benefit of fighters was their HP, but now DoS can reach a way enough value.
The ONLY benefit SD keep, while sacrificing saves, self healing and a threat boost, is the possibility to slot more defensive feats.
And more offensive feats, and a higher intimidate, and make use of one of the best tanking weapons in the game, and use better shields. A fighter can fit SM, ISM, ISB, GTHF, and a few extra Toughness feats as well as more AP on Toughness and big DPS enhancements like Haste Boost.

There are trade-offs, and I'm not saying that paladins are really hurting badly, but DoS do need a little extra love.

See above. You shouldn't compare 2 PrEs, but 2 Class+PrEs, because it's a package: you can't separate them.

*Edit: However, I think AP reductions on DoS requisites would be fair, so they can benefit more from their class features.
Reducing AP is one way to go, which would be very nice, but I really feel that the feat issue for DoS paladins is a big one and could use a little help. Again, not a lot. I'm not talking about 3 bonus feats here.

[Tsuarok]

I disagree. You can't compare 2 PrEs without taking the classes into account, because PrEs are class specializations.
The only strength of fighters is their feats. If paladins can get all the nice tanking feats without having to choose, SD become pointless.



Now lets include class features because, as I said, PrEs are class specializations and should be compared taking everything into account:

DoS:
up to +5 AC and +5 saves from aura.
+Cha to all saves.
The potential to self heal.
A boost to damage (DM) in addition to stance.
Spells that boost to-hit, damage and doublestrike.
+100% threat clickies.

SD:
up to +2 to-hit and +5-6 damage from fighter feats.
up to +3 MDB on armors and tower shields.
potential for more toughness feats.

Sum it up and you'll see they're on par. The max AC of a DoS is the same as a SD if the SD doesn't benefit from a DoS aura (which is almost always the case), while the DoS has much higher saves.
Before the change to stances, the main benefit of fighters was their HP, but now DoS can reach a way enough value.
The ONLY benefit SD keep, while sacrificing saves, self healing and a threat boost, is the possibility to slot more defensive feats.



See above. You shouldn't compare 2 PrEs, but 2 Class+PrEs, because it's a package: you can't separate them.

*Edit: However, I think AP reductions on DoS requisites would be fair, so they can benefit more from their class features.

Ok, if you want to sum up the whole deal, you need to include everything.

Stats.
Fighters need Str and Con, with a fair helping of dex and, if they want, enough int to get CE. Fighters have enough stat points to invest in dex, and have enhancements that increase the maximum dex bonus allowed by armors, giving them the edge over paladins. And hey, if they don't want to spend the AP on those increases, there is always the new mobility feat. So the SD has access to higher AC, and if there is a single paladin in the group, they get that benefit as well. Fighters for AC have more than than paladins built for AC

Paladins need Str, Con, and Cha, with the same desire for dex and int, but having to at minimum slot in a wis item if they want their spells. The result is usually less con or dex, either of which hurt the tanking abilities of said paladin. For arguement's sake, you could drop the hefty investment in Cha, but then your Cha to saves is a bit lackluster, you don't have the turns to maintain your DM, or even sufficient Cha to get DM in the first place. Your Smites hit like dying kittens, and you think to yourself, "why in the world did I roll a paladin?"

But paladins have Divine Righteousness, right? So they can just dump Str and still make tons of threat. Well, not really. They need to hit to get any threat, so if you dump Str, you have to use yet another precious feat of weapon finesse, and limit yourself to rapiers. And, in a great joke by designers, the paladin tanking threat clicky doesn't stack with the threat from the paladin tanking PrE! It only provides an additional 25% threat over just hanging out being a DoS III (or a SD).

Pure fighters get zeal too... except it's always on. It never requires you to stop fighting to recast. While it does take a bit of effort, Divine Favor is also available to fighters through PL: Paladin.

Four LoH might be nice while running around solo or zerging a quest, or other casual play, but, much like Glorious Stand, it simply doesn't provide enough to be more than a gimmick in serious content.

As I mentioned earlier, saves higher than a particular number are useless. Fighters can get very high saves. Certainly usefully high saves. Whether the amount paladins have over fighters is useful depends on the content. But this is indeed a valid benefit for the paladin. Even if it is available to anyone who has two paladin levels.

And I think you are underestimating the importance of the hp gap.

But the power of the defensive and offensive feats available to a fighter far outstrips the gimmicks and saves of the paladin. As I'd said before:


And even with the shield feats given away to paladins, there are tons of useful feats for a fighter to get an edge over a paladin. Three dragonmarks for the fang, three THF feats, IC for both your weapon and your shield, PA, Dodge, CE, the weapon specialization/focus feats, Imp. Sunder, Imp. Trip, Stunning Blow, the new mobility, PL:Paladin, quick draw. Toughness, over and over again. All of these give a fighter a competitive edge.

[noinfo]

+1 Str and Haste Boost I vs. the paladin capstone of up to +3d6 damage and the ability have a rather large variety of weapons bypass relevant DRs? Cale basically reenforces my point--that one of the big advantages fighters have to weigh against those of paladins is their feats. Granting too many freebies, particularly ones that are inherently fighter-centric, encroaches on the fighter's territory. I suggest either Shield Mastery or Improved Shield Bash (I'm actually leaning more toward SM) because they fit the theme of the PrE very closely--there are benefits to using a shield tied into the PrE, it is defensive in nature, etc...
.

But its not +1 Str and Haste boost vs paladin capstone, its that and +2 feats. Its the same as you have now, throwing Towershield into the equation is no deal breaker or maker. The comparisson you were making before was not vs capstone by itself but for a reason not to take monk over fighter and I gave it to you. Monk is better if you wear light or no armour and fighter for heavy.
Especially with the addition of dex bonus with Mobility you are looking at a potential 2 additional AC vs the capstone really unless you can find another way of fitting it in.

[elraido]

Ok, if you want to sum up the whole deal, you need to include everything.

Stats.
Fighters need Str and Con, with a fair helping of dex and, if they want, enough int to get CE. Fighters have enough stat points to invest in dex, and have enhancements that increase the maximum dex bonus allowed by armors, giving them the edge over paladins. And hey, if they don't want to spend the AP on those increases, there is always the new mobility feat. So the SD has access to higher AC, and if there is a single paladin in the group, they get that benefit as well. Fighters for AC have more than than paladins built for AC

Paladins need Str, Con, and Cha, with the same desire for dex and int, but having to at minimum slot in a wis item if they want their spells. The result is usually less con or dex, either of which hurt the tanking abilities of said paladin. For arguement's sake, you could drop the hefty investment in Cha, but then your Cha to saves is a bit lackluster, you don't have the turns to maintain your DM, or even sufficient Cha to get DM in the first place. Your Smites hit like dying kittens, and you think to yourself, "why in the world did I roll a paladin?"

But paladins have Divine Righteousness, right? So they can just dump Str and still make tons of threat. Well, not really. They need to hit to get any threat, so if you dump Str, you have to use yet another precious feat of weapon finesse, and limit yourself to rapiers. And, in a great joke by designers, the paladin tanking threat clicky doesn't stack with the threat from the paladin tanking PrE! It only provides an additional 25% threat over just hanging out being a DoS III (or a SD).

Pure fighters get zeal too... except it's always on. It never requires you to stop fighting to recast. While it does take a bit of effort, Divine Favor is also available to fighters through PL: Paladin.

Four LoH might be nice while running around solo or zerging a quest, or other casual play, but, much like Glorious Stand, it simply doesn't provide enough to be more than a gimmick in serious content.

As I mentioned earlier, saves higher than a particular number are useless. Fighters can get very high saves. Certainly usefully high saves. Whether the amount paladins have over fighters is useful depends on the content. But this is indeed a valid benefit for the paladin. Even if it is available to anyone who has two paladin levels.

And I think you are underestimating the importance of the hp gap.

But the power of the defensive and offensive feats available to a fighter far outstrips the gimmicks and saves of the paladin. As I'd said before:

You are forgetting about the UMD ability of most paladins. Heal scrolls, UMD bypass on equipment, Masters touch scrolls to use Tower Shields, Atry scrolls for 1d6 points of elemental damage and another for +1 to AC....able to add silver or cold iron to any weapon. Etc.

[JOTMON]

You are forgetting about the UMD ability of most paladins. Heal scrolls, UMD bypass on equipment, Masters touch scrolls to use Tower Shields, Atry scrolls for 1d6 points of elemental damage and another for +1 to AC....able to add silver or cold iron to any weapon. Etc.

Weak argument for Paladin benefit.
Fighter has same access to UMD as a paladin.
They just usually chose not to invest in CHA for UMD and invest more to str or con.
Fighters also have the feat room to take UMD+3 if they really wanted to.
Arty Scrolls have had their UMD levelboosted so most are in the UMD40 range.
Trying to UMD with no concentration while you are tanking is not overly usefull.

As skill points go Paladin and Fighter only get 2 per level + Int Bonus.
Assume 11 start for CE and a +2 tome puts both at 13 possibly 14 for 1-2 more points invested in a cross class skill. Maybe 1 more if human. so average of 4 skill points per level.
Class skills, Fighter - Intimidate/Jump ,Paladin - Intimidate
All other usable skills are cross class - Balance/Jump/UMD.

Not a lot of room for UMD investing without significant gear swapping and only really viable at cap.
Using UMD would only be usefull if splashing a couple rogue levels.

[Tsuarok]

You are forgetting about the UMD ability of most paladins. Heal scrolls, UMD bypass on equipment, Masters touch scrolls to use Tower Shields, Atry scrolls for 1d6 points of elemental damage and another for +1 to AC....able to add silver or cold iron to any weapon. Etc.

I wouldn't exactly say forgetting. UMD is not a class skill, and while the increase in cha that paladins should have over fighters does help, most will start with a 14 - 16 cha, giving +3-4 over your 8 cha fighter. If you have the AP (and as paladin, you don't) you can squeeze another +2 cha in for an additional +1 UMD. As Jotmon noted fighters have enough feats to grab SF: UMD, so that puts our paladin at a +0 to +2 UMD advantage over the fighter. Not too much really.

[sephiroth1084]

I wouldn't exactly say forgetting. UMD is not a class skill, and while the increase in cha that paladins should have over fighters does help, most will start with a 14 - 16 cha, giving +3-4 over your 8 cha fighter. If you have the AP (and as paladin, you don't) you can squeeze another +2 cha in for an additional +1 UMD. As Jotmon noted fighters have enough feats to grab SF: UMD, so that puts our paladin at a +0 to +2 UMD advantage over the fighter. Not too much really.
And a SD has a bit of incentive to be upping their Cha as well, for Intimidate, so the difference may not be even that big.

[CanuckWisdom]

In general response to the thread (coming from someone who plays paladin and fighter both, but loves pally more, so perhaps a bias), I don't know about adding feats to DoS (if so, shield bash would be best/most reasonable of the options discussed) or any other replacement benefit,

but I STRONGLY agree that Protection against evil and shield of faith DoS abilities are laughably useless. Its been stated, but, Paladins (and other classes your likely grouped with) can not only already cast these spells (which dont have much competition for those spell slots), but also get items (protection, which a tank will almost gauranteed have) that do the exact same thing without having to be cast/chance to be dispelled.

Its pretty rediculous. Replace those abilities with something that can be used, even a little.

Maybe combat expertise as the free feat. It seems like a powerful feat to give free, but at the same time, how many paladins can afford 13 int? And SD already seems more shield oriented, so why not give paladins something that can work for TWF or THF.


Another thought; if your going to compare classes as well as PrE's, to claim that the paladin gets +cha to saves is correct, but what about the extra strength/con that the fighter has because they didnt have to spend on charisma? How much +attack and +dmg is that? What about wisdom? Paladins need to either spend on wisdom or use an item to cover +6 wis, a slot you could argue a fighter can use elsewhere. These arguments, while true, I do acknowledge are getting into the difficult to weigh and compare area.