Help with assassinate

[SSFWEl]

I am now lvl 19 with 3 ranks to go :)

The only time I used the actual "assassinate" was in cove @ lvl 18, when I walked around sneaking, then hitting assassinate, and about 60% of the time killing stuff outright. My son, then a lvl 18 fighter, was in awe. Was fun.

In PUGs (90% of what I do) there is never time to sneak around, get in close and assassinate.

Maybe I am using it wrong?
When I fight, I always have my lvl3 Subtle on, I try to get behind the mobs and indeed do very nice damage. I usually don't quite top the kill lists, but I am always very respectable - also depends on what mobs / weapons combinations I have. So I love the SA etc and think I use that well.

But how should I be using assassinate? From what I see, the mob can't be targeting ANYONE for it work. Never seems to work for me if someone else has aggro, and I drop into sneak and try assassinate.

I ask because when people ask why go pure rogue, it's always: "assassinate" and "capstone". And I don't seem to be using assassinate much.

Thx

[Spoprockel]

It works on every mob that isn't aggroed on you.


You need to get a feeling on when to join the fight without getting the aggro of the mobs.

Let the fighter charge first, wait for the caster to cast some crowd control.

As soon as you see them picking a target and starting to attack it, jump in (yes, jump into the back of the enemies).
While in mid air, hit sneak, then hit assassinate. After assassinating two targets (if TWF) start attacking other enemies.

After the timer is up, move out of the fight, jump one or two other mobs that aren't attacking you and repeat.


To make this work, learn the behavior and attack chains of enemies. If they cleave you while you're trying to assassinate, they will break you out of stealth mode and it won't land.
Wait until after they've gone through their cleave, then jump and assassinate.


Enemy casters, your main targets for assassinations, will aggro on someone, then move a fair bit, then cast.
Wait untill after they've moved, then jump them. That way they won't move out of your attack range.


You can also use invisibility clickies to move a bit ahead of your party. Wait until enemies notice your other party members, go into sneak mode, hit assassinate when they are about to pass you by.
This needs some practice, ass your assassination has a little delay, depending on your connection/lag rate.


Make sure to stay out of the path of any enemy archers, as every enemy hit cancels out your sneak mode.


Assassinate often, assassinate well. Focus on casters and other mobs with low fortitude saves first, then kill the rest if there's anything left.


Also, your DC is (10 + Rogue level + Int modifier), so make sure to have and int item equipped for better results.
The higher your int score, the harder it is for mobs to save against it.

[MysteryNotes]

I am now lvl 19 with 3 ranks to go :)

The only time I used the actual "assassinate" was in cove @ lvl 18, when I walked around sneaking, then hitting assassinate, and about 60% of the time killing stuff outright. My son, then a lvl 18 fighter, was in awe. Was fun.

In PUGs (90% of what I do) there is never time to sneak around, get in close and assassinate.

Maybe I am using it wrong?
When I fight, I always have my lvl3 Subtle on, I try to get behind the mobs and indeed do very nice damage. I usually don't quite top the kill lists, but I am always very respectable - also depends on what mobs / weapons combinations I have. So I love the SA etc and think I use that well.

But how should I be using assassinate? From what I see, the mob can't be targeting ANYONE for it work. Never seems to work for me if someone else has aggro, and I drop into sneak and try assassinate.

I ask because when people ask why go pure rogue, it's always: "assassinate" and "capstone". And I don't seem to be using assassinate much.

Thx

When you're fighting, you want to be making sure your assassinate is ALWAYS on cooldown.
You don't need to go around sneaking all the time, just jump behind the mob, go into sneak mode, assassinate and move on. (You can go into sneak mode while in the air.)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

With Faster Sneaking IV and 30% Striders you can in fact sneak in a charging PUG. (if they slow down to fight anyway)

But that is only one method.

UMDing Invisibility scrolls and running ahead of the PUG works very well.

But you only need to be in sneak mode, and not have agro to assassinate.... so a simple drop to sneak right before you hit assassinate works. (I'm currently trying to perfect the flying assassinate!.... run, jump, sneak in mid air, assassinate before I even hit the ground. ;) )

Haste pots help too. cause IMO the secret to frequent PUG Assassinates is very fast movement. You need to change targets often to keep making sure you do not have agro of your target.
See a melee guy fighting a monster.....jump on its back. (the monster's, not the melee guy's :p)

Hit sneak right before entering a room, take a hard right, wait till you see everything agro on someone else. stand up, charge, sneak, assassinate. (or with faster sneaking just go do it...you'll be fast enough.)

Just start experimenting and see what you can learn.


Like many other tactics though (which I don't actually see as a seperate thing) understanding agro is very enlightening.

[Astars]

There a two modes of assassination:
Active (when stealthed), the assassinate 2 clicky, DC int/level based, and
passive (an mode as long as you sneak attack), the assassinae 3 ability, vorpal/hit point capped

If you got good aggro reduction items, you'll be sneak attacking even in melee fights. And when hittinga 20 you'll vorpal the mob. Getting a radiance 2 weapon from shroud helps a lot there, since it blinds mobs and and you get sneak attacks on blind mobs. Thats why getting a radiance 2 weapon from shroud is one of the highest priorities for a rog.

As for the active assassination - thats an art form. When to sneak, where to position yourself, when to hit the assassination takes lots of practictice. Additionally you'll need a good assassination DC. Thats where the capstone comes in (+1 DC from +2 int) and staying pure rogue (+1 DC per level of rog). A high int score / int item helps as well. When you go epic, thats where the fun starts. Assassination is one of the few instant kill abilities in epics. If you get the hang of it, you'll do really well (eDA or eVoN3 or nearly any other epic). From the epics you can also get one of the holy grail items of assassin: The epic Midnight Greetings (sentinels pack) It increases your assassinate DC by +2 and is basically a +10 weapon.

Playing an epic assassin in really challenging but also very rewarding (much more fun than a barbarian swinging his big weapon at big mobs until he dies or the mob, depending on who gets the better heals). It needs lots of equipment and special high int/high to-hit builds. Getting an assassinate dc of 40 is the watermark for a high end assassin. But don't forget to also get enough hit points ...

Cheers

Ast

[TheDearLeader]

You have to be in sneak mode for it to work, and it's an active ability you can activate every 15 seconds.

Once you activate it your character swings his weapon(s),
and the monster you hit with this attack must make a fortitude save (10 + rogue lvl + int modifier) or die.

If you are dual wielding weapons you will perform 2 attacks (if you have the according 2WF feats). By doing so you can kill 2 enemies with 1 assassination if they are both in attack range.
Even 3, if you're lucky and proc a doublestrike.

Assassinating monsters does not kick you out of sneak mode, as normal attacks do. It doesn't cancel invisibility either.


Doesn't work on anything with 100% fortification, oozes, slimes, undead, true constructs, red and purple named bosses.


Very good. I swing my +1 at you quite vigorously.

I will add that not just do you need to be in Sneak mode, but that target must actually be able to take Sneak Attack damage from you at that particular moment.

That means:

Someone else has DPS or Sight-based Aggro.
Someone else has Intimi-Aggro.
Mob is Blind (Radiance, Radiance Guard, Holy Aura, etc.).
Mob is Stoned/Stunned/Held.
You have yet to be detected prior to the Assassination attempt.
A successful use the "Bluff" skill, then go into Sneak mode, then Assassinate in a short period of time.



There are several criteria for an assassination which have been touched on already. Assassination basically requires a sneak attack from stealth, and works as a death effect vs a monster's fort save with a DC equal to rogue level +10 + intelligence modifier ( +2 for wielding epic midnight greetings). With a decent investment in intelligence and an intelligence item can allow for appreciably high dcs on an instakill- and since the change to epic ward, is very useful at the end game.


This tells us a couple of criteria which should be broken down thusly:
1. You must be able to sneak attack the targets.
- Nothing which has 100% fortification OR immunity to sneak attacks ( No undead, oozes, nonliving constructs, elementals... or plants. No assassinating the Hydrangeas, sadly.)
- The usual sneak attack requirements- target is unaware/not aggroed on you/blind/helpless. You should endeavour for these conditions 100% of the time as a rogue anyway, so it shouldn't be much of a stretch.
2. Target must be vulnerable to death effects
- Raid bosses, red names, and epic orange names are all warded against death by nature. However, enemy divines at endgame/epic will often cast death ward on themselves or other mobs. This will also thwart you.
3. You must be stealthed. I reccomend keeping a button for sneaking keyed next to your assassination keyed - they will be close chums. Faster sneaking seems like a silly investment but at least a few points in it can be handy for keeping up with a moving target- or if you're twitchier you can get used to popping out of stealth to move and in again to strike.

If you make an assassination attempt from stealth, the 15 second cooldown begins, whether or not you hit/klled anything with it. If you accidentally try to assassinate while not in stealth, the cooldown is somewhat faster. Try to use them wisely- 15 seconds may not sound like alot but when you need it in a tight spot the seconds drag.


It's useful to note that this is the only death effect unaffected by spell resistance (past the 1000 hp vorpal threshold). Epic Drow with very high SR, (especially Drow spellcasters with lower fort saves) make very juicy targets for assassination that would otherwise be an annoyance for the party to deal with.

We had this discussion on the 11th, so I just decided to re-quote some of the tasty bits. Enjoy.

[SableShadow]

With Faster Sneaking IV and 30% Striders you can in fact sneak in a charging PUG. (if they slow down to fight anyway)

Very true, but please, please don't be that guy (and to clarify, I know that Talon is not)... you know, the one who drops into sneak at the beginning of the quest, never comes out of it, and doesn't do anything other than Assassinate mobs the rest of the party has already engaged.

Learn to scrap, to toggle your sneak, and use your assassinate on fresh, undamaged stuff so you aren't wasting the rest of the party's dps.

Casters who FoD the stuff already engaged, ignoring the unengaged mobs, are equally annoying.

Sure, if it's the only thing around that's still moving, zap it ... if it's a high priority kill, like a caster, zap it ... but ... if you can pick your targets, do so.



But that is only one method.


Amen.



We had this discussion on the 11th, so I just decided to re-quote some of the tasty bits. Enjoy.

"You must spread some rep around ..."

[delsoboss]

One thing that may be important:
Right now assassinate is bugged if you're wielding scrolls/wands or are bare-handed: when you activate the ability you get nothing or weird things happening (like foating 0 damage numbers above the monster head without an attack roll registered on the combat log, or an attack roll without the associated damage roll) and the ability goes in cooldown.
So if you like running around UMDing wands/scrolls be sure to switch to weapons before attempting assassinates.

[Had an embarassing one in HoX: after being poisoned by the renders i used a wand of neutralize poison then saw one of the little beholders spawn and: drop in sneak-->stalk the little beholder-->hit assassinate-->cast neutralize poison-->get antimagicked and held-->get saved by the appointed beholder patrol player wandering by-->return ashamed to the east spawn camp]

[Fallout]

As for the active assassination - thats an art form. When to sneak, where to position yourself, when to hit the assassination takes lots of practictice. Additionally you'll need a good assassination DC. Thats where the capstone comes in (+1 DC from +2 int) and staying pure rogue (+1 DC per level of rog). A high int score / int item helps as well.

Ast

Exactly, its an art form. I enjoy playing assassin instead of straight-up melee because it requires you to think all the time. Never charge in combat, instead wait for melee or caster to first aggro mob. Always think about positioning. If you get hit by a mob (cleave etc, you can get out of sneak). Speed (strider/haste) is very important, you need to get in position quickly. I don't have enough points to put into fast sneak (I wish I did, its very very nice), so I usually run around mob, then go to sneak mode at last moment, and use assasinate.

Its hard to balance high str(or dex), con and int. Requires alot of good gear, and tomes. High int is necessary. Just like caster wail DC, around 40 assasinate DC is a good start. So rogue is a good TR candidate to get those extra build points.

The end build, (against mobs that can be sneak attack), rogue easily are one of top DPS. In addition with assasinate can kill 2 mobs at same time, if close enough. A well played assassin rogue is great addition to any group provided you're not the designated tank :)

[Cap_Man]

Lots of great advice in this thread which only leaves me with one thing to add.

Key mapping!

How do you enter stealth mode and how do you assassinate?

My life as an assassin got a lot easier (and a heck of lot more fun) once I remapped Stealth to the 'R' key and Assassinate to the 'F' key.

Before that I was fumbling around trying to hit the right hot bar buttons. Now I don't miss a beat and never take my eyes off the action. It also makes the flying assassinate move a lot easier .... charge!!! <space> (Jump), <R> (stealth mid-air), <F> (1 or 2 Mobs dead before I hit the ground). :D

If things go south, a quick backflip (tumble) is good way to quickly break stealth and put some distance between you and the ****ed off mob.

[SensaiRyu]

As soon as you see them picking a target and starting to attack it, jump in (yes, jump into the back of the enemies).
While in mid air, hit sneak, then hit assassinate. After assassinating two targets (if TWF) start attacking other enemies.

After the timer is up, move out of the fight, jump one or two other mobs that aren't attacking you and repeat.

+rep... Nice thief tactics. I'll give it a go next time I'm on. I usually jump maneuver and sneak/assassinate. Being new to rogue I keep thinking I need to be behind even tho' I know full well that I don't.

And it never would've occurred to me jump/stealth/assassinate.

[tylerdurden77]

Use the jump over/sneak/assassinate technique like others here have said as much as possible as it really is the best method.

However, for situations where this is not possible (obstacles, etc) invis clickies are your friends. Pop your invis clicky and run right up to the (preferably caster) mob without touching him, go into sneak mode, assassinate him, then join the main fight again.

Also, I would not recommend putting any points into the Faster Sneaking enhancement line. There are so many other good choices and you can really get by without it. Wand/Scroll Mastery if you've got decent UMD or throw some points into the skill boost lines if you're doing any Epic trapping

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Very true, but please, please don't be that guy (and to clarify, I know that Talon is not)... you know, the one who drops into sneak at the beginning of the quest, never comes out of it, and doesn't do anything other than Assassinate mobs the rest of the party has already engaged.

Learn to scrap, to toggle your sneak, and use your assassinate on fresh, undamaged stuff so you aren't wasting the rest of the party's dps.

Casters who FoD the stuff already engaged, ignoring the unengaged mobs, are equally annoying.

Sure, if it's the only thing around that's still moving, zap it ... if it's a high priority kill, like a caster, zap it ... but ... if you can pick your targets, do so.



Amen.




"You must spread some rep around ..."

Actually....back in the day when attacks from stealth didn't break sneak mode.... :p
But that's not what you meant...lol

And while I do enjoy kill-stealing, my primary targets are in the back row.

Assassinate is great for enemy spell casters. (especially those hiding in Blade Barriers)

And while assassinate is on cooldown, I take out those enemy archers. If they are actively attacking someone else, I can usualy dispatch them before they can switch their agro to me. (and W/P still works nice to stun them just long enough to finish any of them off that did manage to switch agro to me.)(my Rog doesn't have a Radiance wep yet.....secondary server and all)

When the back row is finished, THEN it's time to kill steal. :D and practice those double assassinates on those mobs surrounding the melee guys.
( I mean come on! I snuck all the way to the back row, swung wide to avoid archers, killed everything on the back row in 6 seconds......not my fault if you were still playing with "your" monsters and left me such tempting targets. :cool: )

[Talon_Moonshadow]

+rep... Nice thief tactics. I'll give it a go next time I'm on. I usually jump maneuver and sneak/assassinate. Being new to rogue I keep thinking I need to be behind even tho' I know full well that I don't.

And it never would've occurred to me jump/stealth/assassinate.

You just need to not have agro.

But.... if you get hit (even accidentily...that happens a lot) you will get knocked out of sneak mode. So attacking from head on is dangerous.

You also need to be careful of cleaving mobs. But if you pay close attention you can predict when they wil cleave, and/or attack right after they cleave.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

BTW.... you can also Bluff a target who "is" agroed on you, and Assassinate him.
As long as you can avoid being knocked out of sneak mode.

This is anothee case where I like Faster Sneaking, so I can side step and hit him from the side to avoid being knocked out of sneak mode. But the video I first saw this in, the guy just struck fast enough that he disn't get hit. (Thanks MrCow ;) )

[Bolo_Grubb]

What items besides an int 6 item can I get to improve my assassinate DCs?

[TheDearLeader]

What items besides an int 6 item can I get to improve my assassinate DCs?

An Exceptional Int +2 Item? :)

Also, Epic Midnight's Greetings. +2 to Assassinate DCs. Only item in the game with that.

[Kinerd]

Assassination is one of the few instant kill abilities in epics.What makes you say that?

[arroyo]

What items besides an int 6 item can I get to improve my assassinate DCs?


An Exceptional Int +2 Item? :)

Also, Epic Midnight's Greetings. +2 to Assassinate DCs. Only item in the game with that.

Epic Spyglass (Cove Event) - +2 Excep INT
Epic Diabolist Robe - INT +7, Colorless Slot with +1 Excep INT.

[CanuckWisdom]

Wow this is a good thread, discussing assassinate tactics. I consider myself good at it and still might have learned a trick or two.

Another good method to ensure success is to run with the frontline melee's, and when approaching enemies, stealth just before agro starts. This means that slowed down in stealth by the time you arrive, a couple seconds late, someone will have agro, and you can pick your target. Kill one instantly, and add your massive sneak damage to a difficult target already being beat on, or something you can kill before it turns on you (another archer or caster).

I personally have the third tier of faster sneak, and while I understand that those AP could be used for other good enhancements (I definitely consider dropping it a tier), I assassinate a lot, and having the speed boost for that makes getting too, following and quick about dropping a mob who is putting out damage on your party much easier.

I think my assassinate is 38 right now at 20. There is still some gear I hope to find to raise it at least one more point. This is on a 28 point build, and 38 works quite well for many enemies.