who should buff?

[Ryan220]

I was in a PuG group yesterday that had the following classes (all L6 and 7s)

Sorcerer (me)
Arti
Wizard
Bard
Barbarian

Noone would give out buffs so I wand whipped Blur to everyone once and got on with it.

Everyone died apart from the Arti and I, but we did complete.


So much for teamwork


What is expected from a Sorcerer in terms of party buffing given the party makeup Ive described?

What buffs are expected from a Sorcerer in general?


Thankyou

[TheDearLeader]

All buffs.

No buffs.

Some buffs.

I have now covered the gamut of all responses you will get from this thread.

In all seriousness, people's opinion differs greatly about this. My opinion? The Bard, if they have it. And at level 6-7, I really don't know why you wouldn't - that's either 3, or 4, spell slots.

But, that's the "great" thing about an MMO. People have diverse opinions about what they should do with their toons, and what they expect out of other people they group with.

[sirgog]

From a Sorc, by level 9 or 10 I expect them to buff Haste and any important Resist Elements. At 20, add Displacement at specific times (e.g. when the nasty rednamed is hitting one player, they should be displaced, likewise before any really nasty fights, everyone should be). Any other buffs are a bonus.

[Satinavian]

I was in a PuG group yesterday that had the following classes (all L6 and 7s)
Sorcerer (me)
Arti
Wizard
Bard
Barbarian
Thankyou

Bard -> haste (only with at least 7 bard levels : Yes, a lv 6 or 6/1 bard simply can't have haste), blur, rage (as support class with bad DC he should buff before the arcanes.)

Sorcerer -> resists, haste, if slotted (has way more SP than wizard and both will not come from the 6lv bard), also blur/rage if bard can't (but really shouldn't be needed)

Artificier -> maybe resist energy, but still not established (low SP class, few spell slots, need for healing offensive/selfbuffing), a lot of possible arty spell configurations which include other situational buffs

Wizard -> everything from [haste, rage, resist, blur] the rest has not slotted (wizzies have flexibility in spellslots) Only don't expect a wizard to use more than 30% of their SP for buffing because they have the spells. Most won't do that. A wizard should have prepared all those spells.

Barbarian -> ... ;)

Resists only when really needed in a particular quests. 30 resist spells "just in case" is way to expensive and time consuming.


My opinion above

Well nowadays we have groups with common dusk/permablur items, we have very common full abishai sets in low level content, we have ship buffs for resists and we have guard builds ... buffing is on the way to an "per request" basis because people don't want to waste precious SP.

Nothing wrong with that. But as that is still in progress, quite people who don't get buffed simply assume the casters refuse to buff, while the caster waits for a request. Communicate more !! If you are unhappy with the buffing of your fellow players, speak up in a polite way.


Then i find sometimes situations with all/most arcane parties where everyone waits for someone else to start buffing to take over the rest - nothing happens - and then everyone decides the other casters are selfish idiots and it is not worth to do the buffing alone so they can have fun blasting through the quest. So the party goes unbuffed, silent and grumpy through the dungeon ... again, communicate more.

[Cogdoc]

@prevous poster: Barbarian no buff? OMG, total piker!...:)

To buff or not to buff. Who should buff? Very difficult to answer questions. Generally there are two types of runs, either:

1- Group is led, players coordinate who distributes which buff at the start of a dungeon. Common on higher level raids for example, at this point the question is not "who" should buff, but more like agreeing on who buffs what so that we save SP, and/or ensuring every important buff is distributed in the party.

2- Peeps act selfish, noobish or veteranish. PUGs, low level quests, people with low skill, rushing people, people not knowing the rest of the party, people who dont want to poof their SP on strangers in a PUG, you name it. Here you can choose, either you can buff, but dont expect anything in return, the other player might not even realize that you just buffed him or her, and/or he dies within the next minute due to rushing ahead into a trap. Or dont buff. In the former case you risk loosing SP in vain, but you might just gain a few friends who think that you are not a selfish player.

Nothing too significant really if you are running case 2 all the time. Its down to your choice. If you are lucky enough to get into case 1, I advise you to try and follow lead, and dont screw up, otherwise you are back to case 2...:)

Cogdoc

[Kmnh]

Give a blur to the barbarian and let the others buff themselves.

Haste depends on how well you are doing with your offensive stuff. If a haste is adding more damage/making the quest go faster than the 20 sp would otherwise, keep that going. Rage is a bad spell in the early game, don't bother.


As a sorcerer, you will pretty much always have enough sp to nuke like an angry god and still keep buffs up.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I gotta say, in the above described party having just leveled up a wizard my thoughts would be this:
1. Everyone here but the barb should be able to get their own buffs, I'll just buff myself and observe if any buffs are given to the barb and give him any that he is missing.
2. I can solo this quest if it turns out that everyone here doesn't have a clue but only if I don't expend my SP buffing other people.
3. Maybe I'm the only one with extend (as extend is pretty rubbish these days) so I may offer to throw extended haste/rage before we get moving.

It's fair to say that I didn't observe 3. much at that level as the duration wasn't long enough and the SP was too costly. That waits more for level ~10+.

In fact, I didn't even carry blur until level 10 or so and just used displacement on myself (or another) in sticky situations. I carried blur wands from time to time though. Having more SP at level 10+ I've started to pay more attention to whether my party members can self blur and have often passed it around.

[Ungood]

The Basic Barrage of "Starting a Quest Buffs" should be something like this.

Haste - AE
Rage - AE
Blur - (Yourself - Ask if Any Melee/non-caster wants it, other Arcane can cover themselves)
Resist/Protect (Yourself - and Ask if anyone else wants it)
Heroism/Greater Heroism (Yourself - and Ask if anyone else wants it)

-Optional after this Point-
False Life (Yourself)
Night Shield (Yourself)
Shield (Yourself)

If you have other self buffs you like, then use them.

Ask the group also, just say "We buffing?" or "Everyone have ship buffs?"

I have found ship buffs save a great deal of "Buff" Spell Points, which allows the casters to focus on, well, killing stuff! :D

[Rasczak]

Problem is in your statement. You shouldn't expect anything. You could ask and maybe get, but expecting is going to end up badly. Ask at the beginning and see what a player is prepared to do. Same goes for healers and anything else.

The fact that buffs make a quest go better and cheaper means nothing, the player on any given class plays how they want to and unless they get asked, you can't fault them for not bothering.

If they not prepared to buff then you could always ask them to leave or reform without them if it's a problem.

[Sleepsalot]

Sorry to say... No ask...No get I am a level 10 FvS have a good bunch of Def Buffs I will try to buff who asks. And the designated tank if I can but it takes a few mins my Mass buffs are a bit away.. But have seen the group take off running. So Ohh Poo no Buffs..
Just my take on it all...

Sleeps :D :) :Dl

[stoerm]

Bards' strongest point is they can make the other team members look good through songs and buffs. If it's a bard that can also contribute to melee DPS, then great.

I've met rogues that don't do traps and divines that only heal themselves. Bards that don't buff go in that same category: play your character your own way, but you're not earning yourself any favor with your team mates.

[Splatterfart]

There's no easy answer to the question unfortunately. There are certain expectations in DDO that are common across the playerbase. People general expect an arcane to keep them hasted at least. People generally expect someone to hit them with a resist if ship buffs don't cover the job.

There's no golden rule to this, however. I personally prefer it when the healers are the last to burn their precious SP on buffs like resists or FoM (especially if there's something like a Ranger standing nearby). I see no reason why any full-time caster should spend their SP on a buff that a (primarily) fighting class could do just as well when the ranger/pally/whatever's sp would normally sit there rotting.

Bards are a bit different. They shrine brightest when they keep their groups buffed and rolling. Playing a bard is a constant dance of micro-managing short term group buffs. Again, however, if there's a bard present I personally see no reason why other primary casters should be burning their blue bars on rage, haste, blur, greater heroism, freedom of movement, etc. The group is better served by letting the arcane spend that sp blowing things up and letting the divine keep the group alive.

If you're in a PUG and don't get buffed I would send a private tell that player politely requestng the 1 or 2 buffs you would like. If you're ignored or turned down, then just make note of that player and simply move on. There's always other groups and other casters.

[Spoonwelder]

Personally on that group I would hope the Wiz has extend and will take care of the short term buffs. Haste/Rage/Displacement - I will take care of Blurs and Stoneskins on the others (earth savant so mine Stoneskins are better). I can GH from scrolls on a melee if I don't see them fire their Gird off on themselves (or the other caster).....with a Bard in the group I wouldn't bother due to the songs.

Resists on people who have died, or don't have a number over 50 in their guild name AND they ask for it.

Jump is situational (ie. trapper in Haywire's Foundary to go to the back way past all the levers....and before the run out.

[Astraghal]

Bard.

[JOTMON]

If buffs are not given out automatically. ask for them or ask respective blue bar to cast on party.
if you dont normally have access to a boat then run your house P favour and use those.
Ask for ship invite when in a party to save on buffs before going to quest. remember to ask nicely...

Many are assumed (like boat resistances/house P).
Some buffs are pointless like barkskin on a barbarian..
but things like blur are usefull for everyone (except those torc loving casters).
Jump in those quests where some vertical challenges are expected.

Some blue bars may not know what is expected in the quest, so if you ask they should provide the appropriate buff.

[Arianrhod]

I disagree with the "always haste all the time as soon as it's available" part. That may be appropriate for groups that rush every quest and finish as quickly as possible, but it's a waste of SP if your group is patiently following the rogue who sneaks along at a snail's pace searching every so often just in case the spot check didn't trigger. Cast haste for the fights, sure, but don't burn all your SP casting it pointlessly before any important fights even happen.

[learst]

You can tell who are those that are used to having various buffs and forgotten about the lower levels. Like my guildmate who chided me when I told a lvl 7 guildie the place to buy scrolls would be the portable hole. "He doesn't have teleport yet!"

At lvl 7, Haste is too costly and too short. With your limited spell slot as a sorc, other spells could probably be more useful. Haste become more cost-effective at higher levels.

[Mark_G]

When I'm pugging with my sorc, I will often say, "I'll do resists if you've got blur." If nothing else, this starts the conversation about buffing.

That being said, I find it hard to expect any sorcerer (for example) to have a particular spell. Maybe Blur is planned to have at a later level. On my currect sorc, I solo a bit, so I chose Knock over Blur as one of my 2nd level spells. Maybe I'll swap it out later...

[Vanquishedfo]

FIrst your in a pug doing low lvl content, if you NEED buffs your groups obviously in alot of trouble already.

But mostly I am curios about which qurst, what dif setting and the general play style of the group, team work can be about alot more sublte things then who buffs whom, like where people doing thier best to back each other in fights or all run off like headless chickens etc.

I mean if it my main wiz back at lvl 5-7ish running say tangleroot on elite id probably be using my sp more on CC spells like suggestion and let big bosses beat down little guys etc. The fact is by lvl 6-7 most do have things like house P buffs at the least to cover some of the basics. and at lower lvls its easy to have a useful AC that far to many refuse to even use simply because end game its to much work to keep it up to effective levels. Well niether my cleric nor wiz buffs those selfish warrior types who like to think early on thier swinging of swords makes them so important they deserve my support rather then supporting me with actual non gimp builds.

Fact is casters are the POWER of D&D worlds that are not low magic. this setting is not low magic. Accept and expect each player to be about taking care of themselves and taking down the bdddies, if each can do that then really no one should be having to wipe each others ass all the time.

[varusso]

Its really simple.
The person with the best airship should buff.
Duh.

Rage/haste and go kill stuff. Any other buffs arent even remotely necessary at low lvl, even if you have the worst-gimped toon on the server, with starter weapons and gear.

Save the rest of the drama for something important. Like vanilla vs chocolate ice cream.

[LordMond63]

Splatterfart is right- there is no easy, 100% of the time answer here.

Much depends on the quest being done. If there aren't many shrines, then I really don't want to see the healer(s) using their sp buffing IF there is another character in the group that can handle those necessary and/or helpful buffs. The same goes for a Wizard; if the Bard can handle Blur, Rage, Haste, etc., then I'd want the Wizzie (or Sorc) keeping his spell points for damage output.

This is, of course, assuming that there is an alternative (in that example, a Bard). If that isn't the case, I prefer seeing the Sorceror or Favored Soul handling the buffs because they have more spell points. If we have two Wizzies or two Clerics, I prefer having the one with the least sp buff so the one with the higher hp can max damage output or healing.

One thing I have discovered in most PuGs is that I should expect no buffs at all and be pleasantly surprised when I receive them without asking. If I am a buffing class, I pass out the 'basics' (Blur, Rage, Haste, Resists) without waiting to be asked and provide things like Jump upon request.

[Enoach]

I was in a PuG group yesterday that had the following classes (all L6 and 7s)

Sorcerer (me)
Arti
Wizard
Bard
Barbarian

Noone would give out buffs so I wand whipped Blur to everyone once and got on with it.

Everyone died apart from the Arti and I, but we did complete.


So much for teamwork


What is expected from a Sorcerer in terms of party buffing given the party makeup Ive described?

What buffs are expected from a Sorcerer in general?


Thankyou

The answer is both easy and complex, but the best answer is Everyone that can


As a Sorcerer you are limited in the number of spells you have both for killing/controlling/buffing
The bard is also limited but will usually carry more buff based spells giving them an edge
The Wizard has a larger Spell pool with a shallower spell point pool, coupled with a higher likelihood of having extend means if necessary buffs could be made to last longer. Keep in mind the more buff you require of a wizard the less Crowd Control they will be capable of...
Artificer has the shallow Spell point pool, but also carries other spells that could benefit party members that no one else can. In this case The Barbarian, the bard and himself might have been the limit of the melee weapon buffs.
Barbarian - Any clickies they brought with him to fill in the gaps of buffs not received. This is why a barbarian should never pass up potion bottles that are spilled from the broken crates.


Now at a minimum the Bard should have sung the few songs that they had. Warchanter buffs for combat would have benefited at least 3, Spellsinger would have also benefited 4 and should sing the song with 10% reduction first before any buffs are given, a Virtuoso would have plenty songs for both buff and fascinate if needed.

So as you can see all are capable of buffing, but it is dependent on what they have and how willing they are to use the SP for party enhancement over offensive measures.

Comments like "You don't need buffs for low level content" are only partially true, buffs are not as needed but sure do make quests much smoother to complete especially if they are appropriate buffs - example you don't need every resist in 99% of the quests; so don't buff every resist. At your current level Fire is the most common damage type, followed by Acid and Electricity.

To finally get to my point - it takes communication, and in your case one approach you could have taken was; "Hey I can cast buff {enter buff(s)} here, does anyone need?" If anything it gets the ball rolling.

[d1mitri]

Very few buffs that are passed down without someone asking for it. Started when I was giving out fire resists in a quest with a lot of lava. So with extend (15+10)*6=150 SP. Turned out most of them had ship buff resists, so about 100 of that SP was wasted.


So no thanks, ask for it. Someone will be kind enough to cast it. Wizards carry most of all useful buffs since as you advance in levels, damage spells start being replaced by "just in case" spells - which most are buffs. But for such a shallow SP pool, you only really cast what is necessary.

You are the one who knows best what buffs you already have on you - so ask for ones you don't have. Checking everyone's names for which buffs they have or don't have is unreasonable. Anyone who volunteers to buff after asked is the right person to do so. ^^

[MrkGrismer]

Generally speaking I would say that you can expect to be included in any mass buffs if you stay close enough to the caster and don't go running off, otherwise if you need something, ask.

Bards, unfortunately, have no Resist Energy so you will never get RE from a bard. Which is unfortunate, I really wish they would give RE to bards...

[Ralmeth]

Whoever is willing to buff, really. For a sorc at your level the only buff I would consider taking and casting on the group if I were you would be blur. IMHO I would expect that a sorc use most of their mana on damage spells.

I'm currently running a level 6 wizard and at this level I like to make sure that everyone in the group has blur and for anyone that could benefit, bull's strength. Then most importantly I'll haste the group regularly for those that stick with the group (yes, I've encountered melees that always ran off without haste even after stating that I was going to cast it...seems counter-intuitive). In my experience at low levels it's pretty rare that I find someone else willing to buff so I usually end up doing it.

[adam1oftheround]

Short answer: Everyone but the Artificer and yourself should have buffed themselves enough to stay alive.

Each character should be able to buff themselves. You should be self sufficient. Buffs provided by others should make the quest go faster, but if you cannot keep yourself alive, you are failing to contribute. If you cannot buff yourself to prevent death, you should not be in this quest.

If you died, you should have buffed yourself with, con, AC, toughness, HP, cure pots...

[tekkentroop]

my opinion:

as above,

-people who can buff themselves should do so.
-people who need buffs should say so.

Imho, bard should be the first to hand out the needed buffs since he cant use his SP for offensive spells. Haste/Rage should be cast by somebody who has extend (which sorcs usually dont have, my wiz and my bard have it)

[JeisonBlade]

I pass whatever buffs i have, I ask for whatever other buffs I cant cast but know I'll likely need, then I move on with life.

[Astraghal]

You should be self sufficient.

DDO like traditional D&D is based around the concept that more can be accomplished through the synergy generated by team of specialists working together to achieve more as a group than they could individually.

If everyone was self-sufficient, there would be less individual deaths, but more overall wipes and resource usage.

That doesn't mean that people shouldn't play smart though.

[MrkGrismer]

DDO like traditional D&D is based around the concept that more can be accomplished through the synergy generated by team of specialists working together to achieve more as a group than they could individually.

If everyone was self-sufficient, there would be less individual deaths, but more overall wipes and resource usage.

That doesn't mean that people shouldn't play smart though.

This is true, however, the more things that everyone can do the more resources are left for things that only certain classes/characters can do.

For instance, at end level all my characters that cannot cast Resist Energy carry at least a cloak of Greater Energy Resistance for each type (so six cloaks), my Bard and Rogue also have an outfit of each type. This allows the character to have energy resistance in at least one element (possibly two) without the need to have it cast. However, if the character is in a party and can get it cast on them then they can use a different cloak (such as the cloak of night, or the magewright cloak, etc.).

I think it is good to strive to be self-sufficient but being in a good group can really cut the resource usage for everybody.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I would probably have Blurred the Barb, and cast a Haste. Every now and then cast another Haste.

Not sure I would have used a wand for Blur on anone but myself though.... unless before a tough fight, or the group was having trouble with the quest..

Depending on the quest, the Bard may have gotten a Resist from me as well. (Something that took me awhile to realise is that Resist Energy is 'not' on the Bard spell list.)

Everyone else in that group should be taking care of themselves at least.

IMO everyone else should be helping the Barbarian out to the best of their ability.