Epic Alchemical bow vs. LS2 bow vs. Epic Thornlord bow

[maddmatt70]

Which of the three ls2 bow, epic alchemical bow, and epic thornlord is the best? I understand for low to medium base damage amounts ls2 is > epic thornlord, but beyond those amounts its epic thornlord. So where does alchemical bows fit?

Which Alchemical would be the best to make is a separate question? Tripple Fire alchemical sounds good except for part of the first tier does not stack with red dragon armor. The doublestrike from what I hear on the 2nd air tier alchemical does not work for non melee combat. There is also the issue of monster immunities/resistances of course. Opinions?

[Khellendros13]

At a hunch, Thornlord still.

However triple Acid Alchemical or acid/elec/elec with Adamantine on base or t3 would be pretty sweet with IPS for trash I think.

I don't have capped ranged toons, but if you give me some base numbers to work with (dmg mod, seeker, arrow type) I can work out the avg dmg per arrow in Barrage.

[gloopygloop]

Which of the three ls2 bow, epic alchemical bow, and epic thornlord is the best? I understand for low to medium base damage amounts ls2 is > epic thornlord, but beyond those amounts its epic thornlord. So where does alchemical bows fit?

Which Alchemical would be the best to make is a separate question? Tripple Fire alchemical sounds good except for part of the first tier does not stack with red dragon armor. The doublestrike from what I hear on the 2nd air tier alchemical does not work for non melee combat. There is also the issue of monster immunities/resistances of course. Opinions?

As a side question, does anyone know if the Alchemical bows' metal types successfully bypass the appropriate DR without needing that metal on the arrows too?

[Glenalth]

I guess it's time to run some numbers again...


Gloopygloop, I made a flametouched iron bow and it correctly applies the good damage to arrows fired through it.

[Glenalth]

Hate Detected, Firing Orbital Friendship Cannon



So the highest straight damage looks like Fire/Air/Whatever if we're calling Lightning Strike ~12pts per hit. I think the Earthgrab + Stone Prison on the first tier will probably be better vs trash due to helplessness, but I'm ignoring it for now as well as the save on the AoE on the final tier.

Quick numbers for point blank shots are looking like this:
Lvl 20 ranger with 30 str, "The Blood Stone" and no specialized gear, vs favored
Lit II: 104.61
Epic Thornlord: 115.37
Alchem FAF: 102.11 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 116.92

Same ranger vs non-favored
Lit II: 87.66
Epic Thornlord: 95.47
Alchem FAF: 85.16 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 97.03

My ranger geared out and buffed
Lit II: 163.71
Epic Thornlord: 181.95
Alchem FAF: 161.2 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering Ardency: 183.5

My ranger unbuffed
Lit II: 114.53
Epic Thornlord: 129.39
Alchem FAF: 112.03 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 130.95



The numbers have shifted since U11. Also, the clear winner here is that fancy looking Abbot bow, assuming it has the expanded crit range and Axer doesn't have improved crit for ranged. :D

[maddmatt70]

Hate Detected, Firing Orbital Friendship Cannon



So the highest straight damage looks like Fire/Air/Whatever if we're calling Lightning Strike ~12pts per hit. I think the Earthgrab + Stone Prison on the first tier will probably be better vs trash due to helplessness, but I'm ignoring it for now as well as the save on the AoE on the final tier.

Quick numbers for point blank shots are looking like this:
Lvl 20 ranger with 30 str, "The Blood Stone" and no specialized gear, vs favored
Lit II: 104.61
Epic Thornlord: 115.37
Alchem FAF: 102.11 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 116.92

Same ranger vs non-favored
Lit II: 87.66
Epic Thornlord: 95.47
Alchem FAF: 85.16 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 97.03

My ranger geared out and buffed
Lit II: 163.71
Epic Thornlord: 181.95
Alchem FAF: 161.2 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering Ardency: 183.5

My ranger unbuffed
Lit II: 114.53
Epic Thornlord: 129.39
Alchem FAF: 112.03 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 130.95



The numbers have shifted since U11. Also, the clear winner here is that fancy looking Abbot bow, assuming it has the expanded crit range and Axer doesn't have improved crit for ranged. :D

The thornlord and the abbot bow are very similiar. I am assuming you added the +10 seeker damage for fire as well which has +10 seeker on it. Rather disappointing that the bows are so weak for alchemical...

[Dark-Star]

Hate Detected, Firing Orbital Friendship Cannon



So the highest straight damage looks like Fire/Air/Whatever if we're calling Lightning Strike ~12pts per hit. I think the Earthgrab + Stone Prison on the first tier will probably be better vs trash due to helplessness, but I'm ignoring it for now as well as the save on the AoE on the final tier.

Quick numbers for point blank shots are looking like this:
Lvl 20 ranger with 30 str, "The Blood Stone" and no specialized gear, vs favored
Lit II: 104.61
Epic Thornlord: 115.37
Alchem FAF: 102.11 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 116.92

Same ranger vs non-favored
Lit II: 87.66
Epic Thornlord: 95.47
Alchem FAF: 85.16 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 97.03

My ranger geared out and buffed
Lit II: 163.71
Epic Thornlord: 181.95
Alchem FAF: 161.2 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering Ardency: 183.5

My ranger unbuffed
Lit II: 114.53
Epic Thornlord: 129.39
Alchem FAF: 112.03 (+2.5pts per target in range)
U12 Unwavering: 130.95



The numbers have shifted since U11. Also, the clear winner here is that fancy looking Abbot bow, assuming it has the expanded crit range and Axer doesn't have improved crit for ranged. :D

Are you sure T2 Air beats T2 Earth?

To me they look about the same, with T2 earth at a very slight advantage:

LS2 = 2.5% x 600 = 15
Disint = 450 x 2.5% = 11.25
Acid Blast = (3.5 base) + (2d10 on a crit = 1.1) + (4d6 on a 20 = .7) = 5.3
T2 earth total = 16.55

Both run into resistances and immunitites, but the disintegrate proc does not.

I realize we have to plug something in, but the damage factor (str, etc.) really changes the DPS comparison when I have run bow DPS comparisons. IIRC the break even for Epic Thornlord vs. LS2 was somewhere around +65 or so damage.

Triple Earth Alchemical bows seem like the ultimate trash killers to me, with two chances to create a helpless state.

For bosses the answer will lie in your + to damage score.

[LeLoric]

Are you sure T2 Air beats T2 Earth?

To me they look about the same, with T2 earth at a very slight advantage:

LS2 = 2.5% x 600 = 15
Disint = 450 x 2.5% = 11.25
Acid Blast = (3.5 base) + (2d10 on a crit = 1.1) + (4d6 on a 20 = .7) = 5.3
T2 earth total = 16.55

Both run into resistances and immunitites, but the disintegrate proc does not.

I realize we have to plug something in, but the damage factor (str, etc.) really changes the DPS comparison when I have run bow DPS comparisons. IIRC the break even for Epic Thornlord vs. LS2 was somewhere around +65 or so damage.

Triple Earth Alchemical bows seem like the ultimate trash killers to me, with two chances to create a helpless state.

For bosses the answer will lie in your + to damage score.

The change to point blank shot pretty much vaulted thornlord above ls with most any dmg bonus for point blank attacks. It's still roughly 65 dmg to bypass the lit 2 on attacks outside of point blank range.

I do agree that earth tier 2 is probably the better choice since the doublestrike from air doesn't work with ranged.

Trip earth is waht I was looking to make and throw on the new outfit to get freezing ice also. That's three helpless inducing effects all in one.

[krackythehoodedone]

Ok I'm struggling with your base damage calculations.

UA is 2d12 EThorn is 2d8+4

Dev did confirm this in thread

So for PBS

I have Unwavering Ardency as 4d12 (+3). Average of 29

E Thorn as 4d8 +8 (+8). Average of 34.

How can the Abbot Bow therefore work out ahead of E Thorn ?

I know Maths wasnt my strongest suit.

Obviously this doesnt even take into account that you might miss a lot more with the Abbot Bow it being five plusses behind the E Thorn.

Ok i will admit i might be a bit biased here

[incineration]

Ok I'm struggling with your base damage calculations.

UA is 2d12 EThorn is 2d8+4

Dev did confirm this in thread

So for PBS

I have Unwavering Ardency as 4d12 (+3). Average of 29

E Thorn as 4d8 +8 (+8). Average of 34.

How can the Abbot Bow therefore work out ahead of E Thorn ?

I know Maths wasnt my strongest suit.

Obviously this doesnt even take into account that you might miss a lot more with the Abbot Bow it being five plusses behind the E Thorn.

Ok i will admit i might be a bit biased here

PBS only effects the dice, not the bonus's on the bow (like the +4 damage on Ethornlord)

[kaobang]

My ranger geared out and buffed
Lit II: 163.71


Hello,

I'm curious to know how you can get so high numbers, are you a bow barbarian ?
str mod and damage mod would help please;)

thank you !

[Diyon]

Ok I'm struggling with your base damage calculations.

UA is 2d12 EThorn is 2d8+4

Dev did confirm this in thread

So for PBS

I have Unwavering Ardency as 4d12 (+3). Average of 29

E Thorn as 4d8 +8 (+8). Average of 34.

How can the Abbot Bow therefore work out ahead of E Thorn ?

I know Maths wasnt my strongest suit.

Obviously this doesnt even take into account that you might miss a lot more with the Abbot Bow it being five plusses behind the E Thorn.

Ok i will admit i might be a bit biased here

UA now has flaming burst. So just almost 6 more damage per hit.

Edit: Also, depends on your arrows. If you use +5 arrows of some sort, that also adds in more.

[Glenalth]

I remembered the seeker :D


Are you sure T2 Air beats T2 Earth?

To me they look about the same, with T2 earth at a very slight advantage:

LS2 = 2.5% x 600 = 15
Disint = 450 x 2.5% = 11.25
Acid Blast = (3.5 base) + (2d10 on a crit = 1.1) + (4d6 on a 20 = .7) = 5.3
T2 earth total = 16.55

Acid Blast has no damage on every hit, it's only on crits. So it's only adding around 1.16 pts per average hit. It's still close enough that it's a decision is to be made when you're making your weapon, which is an improvement over the many Shroud recipes that are mostly useless.


Ok I'm struggling with your base damage calculations.

UA is 2d12 EThorn is 2d8+4

Dev did confirm this in thread

So for PBS

I have Unwavering Ardency as 4d12 (+3). Average of 29

E Thorn as 4d8 +8 (+8). Average of 34.

How can the Abbot Bow therefore work out ahead of E Thorn ?

I know Maths wasnt my strongest suit.

Obviously this doesnt even take into account that you might miss a lot more with the Abbot Bow it being five plusses behind the E Thorn.

Ok i will admit i might be a bit biased here

New Flaming Burst on it and using AA +5 arrows throws it slightly over the top. It also picks up Blinding Embers if you upgrade it, giving it more utility if you want it.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/1154/unwaveringardency.jpg

[Glenalth]

PBS only effects the dice, not the bonus's on the bow (like the +4 damage on Ethornlord)

If the +4 are coded the same way as the 1d8+2 dice on the base item, it's all included.

[krackythehoodedone]

No Incineration that is my point.

PBS doubles base damage

EThorn base dam is 2d8+4 then +8 because its a +8 bow

I believe this was confirmed by a dev

[krackythehoodedone]

Phew

Luckily i cant craft +5 arrows..lol

So i'm keeping my E Thorn.

UA might be a bit better against certain mobs and it really needed an upgrade.

Actually with me critting on a 13 it might be even better than your figures

It is the best looking weapon in the game and deserves to be seen for reasons other than showing off.

Mind you it will have to compete with my trusty ''Ooze'' Bow in the mobs category

[Glenalth]

Phew

Luckily i cant craft +5 arrows..lol

So i'm keeping my E Thorn.

UA might be a bit better against certain mobs and it really needed an upgrade.

Actually with me critting on a 13 it might be even better than your figures

It is the best looking weapon in the game and deserves to be seen for reasons other than showing off.

Mind you it will have to compete with my trusty ''Ooze'' Bow in the mobs category

Old school crit rage throws all sorts of calculations off...

[grandeibra]

@incineration

here is the dev post about the +4 from thornlord counting as base and being doubled when in PBS mode

http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/showthread.php?t=334819

[junta74]

Just curios to see if anyone noticed that the Calomel weapons now include a longbow. Base 2d8 crit 20.

[Glenalth]

Just curios to see if anyone noticed that the Calomel weapons now include a longbow. Base 2d8 crit 20.

It was noticed.

[Scrootaype]

So did I miss something?

I saw Glenalth's linked pic of the UW on Lamma, but I don't see that flaming burst went live after looking into traditional info resources.

Thanks!

[Glenalth]

It seems that the changes didn't go through at all for Unwavering Ardency.

Other weapons with changes to base damage or threat range were retroactively effected, such as Treason and Tenderizer. UA is still exactly the same.

On top of that, friend pulled one from Abbot the other day and it was just the old bow without the upgradable text at all.

[LeLoric]

It seems that the changes didn't go through at all for Unwavering Ardency.

Other weapons with changes to base damage or threat range were retroactively effected, such as Treason and Tenderizer. UA is still exactly the same.

On top of that, friend pulled one from Abbot the other day and it was just the old bow without the upgradable text at all.

I am sure it was a last minute, wow someone did the rather easy math that we refuse to do and it's the best bow in game, probably shouldn't be so let's pull it and fix it later.

[Glenalth]

I am sure it was a last minute, wow someone did the rather easy math that we refuse to do and it's the best bow in game, probably shouldn't be so let's pull it and fix it later.

That and point blank shot were the most interesting things to happen to ranged in quite a while. They're already talking about changing damage dice to make point blank not work as well and now this. It gets a bit discouraging to try and be an archer in this game.

[LeLoric]

That and point blank shot were the most interesting things to happen to ranged in quite a while. They're already talking about changing damage dice to make point blank not work as well and now this. It gets a bit discouraging to try and be an archer in this game.

Oh I agree it's just that Abbot is probably not the best place to introduce the best bow in the game.

[Glenalth]

Oh I agree it's just that Abbot is probably not the best place to introduce the best bow in the game.

It wouldn't be the best, just the highest DPS in some situations.

Shortcomings...
+3 to hit
No DR breaking properties on it
Fire damage

And on top of that, changes to base damage/point blank shot are going to bump it down the list a bit for most builds

It would still be a very solid bow, which is something that is needed in this game.