Support and cc spells to help with melee ?

[charmor]

I'm soloing with my wizard in a melee style, using spells just for buff and support. I'm level 6 now, and I'm having lots of fun with this toon. I always play with my other casters just throwing damage spells all the time, so I can say I don't have much experience with support and cc spells.

I'm currently experimenting with spells such as Hypnotism, Web, Sleep, Deep Slumber, Slow and even the clouds. The clouds are too slow casting, so I'm considering not using them anymore at all (won't get quicken just for that). Hypnotism lasts too short, and I didn't like that. Sleep and Deep Slumber seem nice, but sometimes I have problems targeting them. Web is great and easy to target exactly where I want to, yet it allows a Str check to get free and usually I want to hold exactly the high Str mobs. And Slow is weak, but seems great to use during melee, since it is pretty cheap, fast casting, and I don't lose too much if resisted.

So, I would like to know which support and cc spells (mainly AoE) you guys recommend during my leveling process to help with melee, and which is the best way to use them?

[scottmike0]

I'm soloing with my wizard in a melee style, using spells just for buff and support. I'm level 6 now, and I'm having lots of fun with this toon. I always play with my other casters just throwing damage spells all the time, so I can say I don't have much experience with support and cc spells.

I'm currently experimenting with spells such as Hypnotism, Web, Sleep, Deep Slumber, Slow and even the clouds. The clouds are too slow casting, so I'm considering not using them anymore at all (won't get quicken just for that). Hypnotism lasts too short, and I didn't like that. Sleep and Deep Slumber seem nice, but sometimes I have problems targeting them. Web is great and easy to target exactly where I want to, yest it allows a Str check to get free and usually I want to hold exactly the high Str mobs. And Slow is weak, but seems great to use during melee, since it is pretty cheap, fast casting, and I don't lose too much if resisted.

So, I would like to know which support and cc spells (mainly AoE) you guys recommend during my leveling process to help with melee, and which is the best way to use them?

electrical loop, not sure for rest usually i draw tons of mobs and then fireball is heading straight to it

[Invalid_82]

I'm soloing with my wizard in a melee style, using spells just for buff and support. I'm level 6 now, and I'm having lots of fun with this toon. I always play with my other casters just throwing damage spells all the time, so I can say I don't have much experience with support and cc spells.

I'm currently experimenting with spells such as Hypnotism, Web, Sleep, Deep Slumber, Slow and even the clouds. The clouds are too slow casting, so I'm considering not using them anymore at all (won't get quicken just for that). Hypnotism lasts too short, and I didn't like that. Sleep and Deep Slumber seem nice, but sometimes I have problems targeting them. Web is great and easy to target exactly where I want to, yet it allows a Str check to get free and usually I want to hold exactly the high Str mobs. And Slow is weak, but seems great to use during melee, since it is pretty cheap, fast casting, and I don't lose too much if resisted.

So, I would like to know which support and cc spells (mainly AoE) you guys recommend during my leveling process to help with melee, and which is the best way to use them?

For straight cc the real good stuff comes later in your career. But you have got some pretty decent stuff listed already. Heightened webs in a solid fog are pretty nice if you keep your conjuration dc's up. Sounds like you will be focusing more on enchantment though down the road. Crushing despair and hypno both give short term debuffs to will save -5 for crushing and -3 for hypno they will help you to stick your hold spells. A mind fog in a dancing ball works very well as well when those spells become available down the road.

I think you are on the right path with cc spells, at your level there aren't as many options. Stick with the cc spells like web and hypno etc until you get up to dancing sphere, hold monster and eventually mass hold monster. With a high enchantment dc and good spell pen .. melee will love seeing the blue hamster balls popping up around the enemy npcs, even nuker sorcs will love you.

[Calebro]

Web is still one of my favorite spells at that level of play. It begins to lose it's effectiveness a little after a few more levels, until you pick Heighten up and it becomes awesome again.
I like it because most mobs have craptastic reflex saves, which means you don't even have to spec specifically for it and you'll still have effective CC. And the other good AoE CC spells are all much higher level. Web can be your go-to CC for a long time.
Many people like Enchantment Archmage for the next-to-free Hypno, but I actually prefer a secondary in Conjuration for almost-free Webs instead because of it's longer duration.

Either Web directly on the caster, or if the caster is separated from the rest of the mobs then toss a Hold at casters before dropping a Web onto the melee mobs. If casters aren't neutralized first, then chances are they'll toss some fire spell (fireball/flame strike/etc) and burn your Web away, wasting your SP.

[charmor]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I won't have the best possible DC in this toon, since my goal is trying something different and I'm focusing on Str to solo like a melee toon, but my Int will not be too bad either (starting 17). So, I believe I can still have reasonable DC, at least for quests on normal difficulty. I have already a bracer with +1 conjuration DC for using after lvl 7, so I believe Web is really the way to go for now. I really liked the way Web is targeted, just didn't like so much its AoE radius, but I can always cast two or more..

[Invalid_82]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I won't have the best possible DC in this toon, since my goal is trying something different and I'm focusing on Str to solo like a melee toon, but my Int will not be too bad either (starting 17). So, I believe I can still have reasonable DC, at least for quests on normal difficulty. I have already a bracer with +1 conjuration DC for using after lvl 7, so I believe Web is really the way to go for now. I really liked the way Web is targeted, just didn't like so much its AoE radius, but I can always cast two or more..

Debuffed will saves, or solid fog ontop of your webs will greatly increase your success with your cc. Solid fog gives a -5 to relfex saves to anything in the solid fog .. thats effectively a +5 to the dc of your web. Same with crushing despair and hypno on will. With those debuffs you should still be great at cc'ing in normal questing without maxing the stat. Heighten will be your friend in the future, I'd say pick it up around lvl 12

[Calebro]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I won't have the best possible DC in this toon, since my goal is trying something different and I'm focusing on Str to solo like a melee toon, but my Int will not be too bad either (starting 17). So, I believe I can still have reasonable DC, at least for quests on normal difficulty. I have already a bracer with +1 conjuration DC for using after lvl 7, so I believe Web is really the way to go for now. I really liked the way Web is targeted, just didn't like so much its AoE radius, but I can always cast two or more..

No need to cast two, for two reasons.
1. You can just kite any mob that's initially out of of it's range into it.
2. The AoE is actually bigger than it looks. Test it some time. Cast a Web and kite past the edges. I think you'll be surprised how far away from the center you'll be able to catch stuff.

[charmor]

Debuffed will saves, or solid fog ontop of your webs will greatly increase your success with your cc. Solid fog gives a -5 to relfex saves to anything in the solid fog .. thats effectively a +5 to the dc of your web. Same with crushing despair and hypno on will. With those debuffs you should still be great at cc'ing in normal questing without maxing the stat. Heighten will be your friend in the future, I'd say pick it up around lvl 12

Yep. Crushing Despair in special looks pretty amazing. A lot of debuffs and also -5 to saves? Yes please. Too bad it'll compete with Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Stoneskin and Death Aura :) I hate the level 4 slots..

[Calebro]

Too bad it'll compete with Wall of Fire -OR- Ice Storm, Negative Energy Burst and Death Aura and one other situational spell like Stoneskin/DDoor/etc :) I hate the level 4 slots..

fify

[charmor]

Only have one more question, this time about Heighten.

Of course it's great, but I'm not sure it's cost effective. I mean, lets say I reach level 15 a get Heighten. Web will cost 45 sp instead of 15, and will get +6 DC. In this case, paying three times the normal cost of a spell such as Web really worth the +6 DC? Can't I just cast two or three Webs in a row for the same effect, or even better?

[Raoull]

Only have one more question, this time about Heighten.

Of course it's great, but I'm not sure it's cost effective. I mean, lets say I reach level 15 a get Heighten. Web will cost 45 sp instead of 15, and will get +6 DC. In this case, paying three times the normal cost of a spell such as Web really worth the +6 DC? Can't I just cast two or three Webs in a row for the same effect, or even better?


Depends.... if you're using the Archmage SLA, the metamagics are free. Heighten is huge.

Also, you can take enhancements to lower the cost of heighten. Due to how heighten works, those enhancements are more effective than the other metamagic SP saving ones. The capstone adds a similar effect.

And with most persistant AOE's (the damage dealing ones anyway), having more than 1 stacked doesn't mean the mobs are hit by more than one. So 3 webs can either cover 3 times the area, or the same area for 3 times as long.... but you can't make a mob save 3 times to not be affected.

That... and 6DCs is huge. If, with heighten, you'll catch 50% of the mobs, you'd only catch 20% without it. People scrimpt their builds/gear for +1 or +2 DC. +6 DC is enormous.

[Invalid_82]

Only have one more question, this time about Heighten.

Of course it's great, but I'm not sure it's cost effective. I mean, lets say I reach level 15 a get Heighten. Web will cost 45 sp instead of 15, and will get +6 DC. In this case, paying three times the normal cost of a spell such as Web really worth the +6 DC? Can't I just cast two or three Webs in a row for the same effect, or even better?

If cost is a concern you can purchase up to 2 levels of improved heighten which will lower the sp cost by 2 points per level of heighten. So web a level 2 spell heightened to level 9 will break down as follows:
Web level 2
Heightened to level 9

Difference in dc from heighten 7
Cost reduction from enhancements: 14 (7*2 = 14)

Most of my time is spent at end game running epics, I'm not too sure what the dc's are on normal but imo heighten is the best feat in many cases on a lot of spells. Eventually you will have access to Mass Hold Monster, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Web, Disco Ball etc etc ... and heighten is the difference maker on those spells.

[Calebro]

That... and 6DCs is huge. If, with heighten, you'll catch 50% of the mobs, you'd only catch 20% without it. People scrimpt their builds/gear for +1 or +2 DC. +6 DC is enormous.

The math isn't nearly as simple as that. Those 6 points of DC can be worth a LOT more than 30% difference, depending on the mobs in question.
Check this (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=193600) out.

Bottom line: If you're using CC spells, almost every single one has a save associated. You want your DCs as high as possible, and Heighten is one of the ways to get them there.

[lppmor]

Ok, you guys convinced me heighten is necessary :)

Only issue is that I'll only have a free feat by lvl 15, unless I drop Mental Toughness. But since this one is prerequisite to get Wraith form, I don't think it's a good trade.. Anyway, I'll try to go without heighten for a time.

[Keylon]

...

[Keylon]

Hey you guys mentioned hypnotism now does that mean they get -3 penalty to will saves even if they roll a 20 on hypnotism?

Also is there any place I can buy crushing despair wands?

[varusso]

Heighten costs more per cast, but it ends up saving SP, because you likely wont have to cast the spell multiple times to get it to land. So yes, heighten is major. But you wont really need it until about when you can fit it into your build, unless you started with really low INT or you are doing a splash build.

Tactics: When you are approaching a group of mobs, target one of them (preferably an ARCHER type) and use charm/suggestion. This causes all nearby mobs to immediately aggro that mob. Often, they will switch aggro to that mob even if they have spotted you (and you havent attacked them). The melee mobs will group up on that mob, and the other casters/archers will start attacking it at range (often they will run up to the mob first though). Now yo uhave a nice knot of mobs all in one location -- ideal for AOE charm/hold/nuke/web/whatever.

So why an archer? Casters and archers like to move around alot, whereas melees like to stand still. So they are harder to get them to kite into your effect. Thus, its better to make them the center of the effect, and other mobs will come to them. More important, casters tend to have high will saves (charm/hold spells) so they are more likely to save. Archer types tend to have **** will saves, so they make all around great targets for your set-up spells. Plus, archers will shoot you while you close, whereas melees have to run up to you (or you to them). So by charming an archer, you eliminate the run-in damage.

I actually built a melee-mage (I call it a Corrupted Paladin): 14 Wiz, 4 Pally, 2 Rog. Give it a two-hander, master's touch, and a decent STR score, and it pretty much stomps everything sub-epic. Pale Master with wraith form, and I seldom even have to worry about healing. Charm a mob, throw firewall or icestorm, run in and smack whatever is still alive. Mid-to-late lvls, the DCs werent high enough to reliable use CCs, but that wasnt the focus of the build anyway. This toon was one of the most fun toons I have built, and leveled ridiculously fast. I just wouldnt recommend it at epic :D

[charmor]

I actually built a melee-mage (I call it a Corrupted Paladin): 14 Wiz, 4 Pally, 2 Rog. Give it a two-hander, master's touch, and a decent STR score, and it pretty much stomps everything sub-epic. Pale Master with wraith form, and I seldom even have to worry about healing. Charm a mob, throw firewall or icestorm, run in and smack whatever is still alive. Mid-to-late lvls, the DCs werent high enough to reliable use CCs, but that wasnt the focus of the build anyway. This toon was one of the most fun toons I have built, and leveled ridiculously fast. I just wouldnt recommend it at epic :D

What I'm trying to accomplish with my toon is pretty much that. But I'm even crazier, since I'm going pure wizard. It's really fun having a competent melee toon that has firewall, easy heal and insane spell support.

I'll try your suggestion with charms. Never used charms before, but seems interesting. Only hope the targeting of charms is not like Sleep and other positional spells, since I'm having a hard time making those spells work nicely with soft-targeting. I don't really enjoy hard-targeting mobs, so I end up using only Web now.

[Calebro]

Only hope the targeting of charms is not like Sleep and other positional spells, since I'm having a hard time making those spells work nicely with soft-targeting. I don't really enjoy hard-targeting mobs, so I end up using only Web now.

I'm not even going to attempt to explain my keybind settings to you because of the amount of things that I've changed, but I'll tell you one of them.
Q = target next mob.
It's right there for your ring finger to hop up from the A button where it usually rests, and it's easy to multi-tap if your target isn't the one closest to you, and it's easy to use on the run.
If you're having trouble with targeting, I suggest you at least give it a try. It could make a huge difference for you.

[varusso]

What I'm trying to accomplish with my toon is pretty much that. But I'm even crazier, since I'm going pure wizard. It's really fun having a competent melee toon that has firewall, easy heal and insane spell support.

I'll try your suggestion with charms. Never used charms before, but seems interesting. Only hope the targeting of charms is not like Sleep and other positional spells, since I'm having a hard time making those spells work nicely with soft-targeting. I don't really enjoy hard-targeting mobs, so I end up using only Web now.

Nearly every "true" mage i own carries a 2-hander until cap. I often play them as a melee with spells, and it works incredibly well, especially in zerg groups with 3-4 other "real" melees. I save my spell points for rage/haste, the CC methods I outlined, and insta-kill spells on key mobs (like casters). Meanwhile, a decent 2-H wpn provides enough respectable DPS to account for most of the loss from spell DPS -- especially when the party is taking little to no damage due to the CCs :D

You should work on fast-hard-targetting. Both types of casting are very useful, depending on the situation. You can use non-target casting for things like dropping a web and firewall right in front of you, but if you actually hard target a mob, it greatly extends the range you can cast. You can target a mob all the way down the hall and CC it before it even sees you, rather than running up and aggroing it (and all its friends) before you start casting. Particularly when soloing (or zerging in a group) the further away you can lock a mob down, the better.

Play with it a bit, and you will see what I mean.

EDIT: just read the above post. I also use keyboard-targetting, BTW, as it is much faster in most situations than trying to mouse-target. Plus my targetting keys are right next to most of my common-use spells (like necro blast/bolt, charm, and death-spells). My other common use spells (such as holds and heals, are right next to my movement keys) on the OTHER hand :D

[Calebro]

EDIT: just read the above post. I also use keyboard-targetting, BTW, as it is much faster in most situations than trying to mouse-target. Plus my targetting keys are right next to most of my common-use spells (like necro blast/bolt, charm, and death-spells). My other common use spells (such as holds and heals, are right next to my movement keys) on the OTHER hand :D

I use a Logitech g700, so all of my most often used spells are right on my mouse. All of my second most often used spells are within comfortable reach for my small hands on a Cyber Snipa v2.
*no trying to stretch across to #10 for me, it's right there (approximately where 5 or 6 is on a regular keyboard)!

http://images.okazje.info.pl/p/komputery/4664/logitech-g700.jpg
http://hardwarelogic.com/articles/reviews/misc/Cyber_Snipa_PC_Gamepad_2/Closeup2.jpg

[varusso]

I have a standard keyboard, with the numpad on the right, separated ins/home/pgUp/Del/End/PgDwn aboce the arrow keys, USB plugged to my laptop. :D

The numpad provides multiple hotkeys for my spells and targetting, the WXSD/ZC keys provide my movement and strafign (with S as the USE key) and several other keys nearby providing various spells and other functions. Basically my hands never leave the keyboard unless I need to specifically use the mouse for something.

If i had another 50 hotkeys, i would need another 100 after that lol

[Calebro]

If i had another 50 hotkeys, i would need another 100 after that lol

lol :D