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View Full Version : Why take kensei over stalwart defender?



sumnz
10-28-2011, 01:13 AM
Cant think of too many reasons except a few points more damage, but your giving up 20 precent more hitpoints, and not having to mess with a 1 minute clicky for 8 strength instead of +6 to str AND con full time. Im debating 20 fighter or possibly 2 rogue 18 fighter, either way at least 18 fighter. Going to duel wield warhammers and focus on the combat feats.

I supose kensei also adds to combat feats.

Tirisha
10-28-2011, 01:20 AM
a better question is: why build a dps toon when you can build a tank?

SetofBs
10-28-2011, 01:38 AM
a better question is: why build a dps toon when you can build a tank?

I think the main reason to go Kensai nowadays is tactics. Although Kensai also has a pretty decent advantage of not generating extra hate when you might not want to.

sephiroth1084
10-28-2011, 01:45 AM
Kensia is still adding a fair bit more DPS with the additional damage on your weapon for tiers I and II and the increased crit range on tier III.

Kensai offers more to-hit.

Kensai offers quite a bit more damage with extra uses of Haste Boost (and Human Damage Boost if you go that route).

Kensai offers better tactics DCs.

If you are comfortable with your HP where it is, but want DPS, Kensai is still the winner for most content I should think.

Stalwart is a little more versatile as its bonuses apply irrespective of weapon or duration of quest, and makes you more resilient.

LeLoric
10-28-2011, 01:49 AM
Kensia is still adding a fair bit more DPS with the additional damage on your weapon for tiers I and II and the increased crit range on tier III.

Kensai offers more to-hit.

Kensai offers quite a bit more damage with extra uses of Haste Boost (and Human Damage Boost if you go that route).

Kensai offers better tactics DCs.

If you are comfortable with your HP where it is, but want DPS, Kensai is still the winner for most content I should think.

Stalwart is a little more versatile as its bonuses apply irrespective of weapon or duration of quest, and makes you more resilient.

Keep in mind kensai also get access to rage and madstone that a stalwart can't use while in stance. So the str score is often much higher and the con is usually the same as a stalwart.

Having a lev 20 kensai and stalwart I can say the dps is much more than a few points more dmg.

FranOhmsford
10-28-2011, 02:24 AM
Is Kensai 1 worth adding to Acrobat or Rogue Mech 2?

Is it worth going Kensai 2 on a Deepwood Sniper as is?

Stalwart is a PURE Fighter {DoS for Pallys} PrE.

I see Kensai as more of an option for Boosting other Classes lesser PrEs.

Khellendros13
11-06-2011, 11:33 PM
Is Kensai 1 worth adding to Acrobat or Rogue Mech 2?

Is it worth going Kensai 2 on a Deepwood Sniper as is?

Stalwart is a PURE Fighter {DoS for Pallys} PrE.

I see Kensai as more of an option for Boosting other Classes lesser PrEs.

I see it the opposite. Kensai 1 is very expensive for a "splash" and offers much less at Tier1 than SD.

Mercureal
11-07-2011, 11:00 AM
I see it the opposite. Kensai 1 is very expensive for a "splash" and offers much less at Tier1 than SD.

I agree: SD 1 gives you: an HP boost, AC boost (if you're going for AC), Str/Con in stance, more AC in stance and a bonus to saves.

Kensai 1 gives you: an extra + 1 to hit and damage (only with your chosen weapon), a bit more damage on a critical, +1 on tactical feats (if you use tactical feats), +1 reflex save against magic, and an extra action boost.

However, I'd say the required feats to qualify for Stalwart 1 are a little less useful overall unless your building a pure tank anyway.

PestWulf
11-07-2011, 12:22 PM
In my opinion, until these recent changes, being Kensai and spending a couple feats on defense and throwing a shield on made you a lot closer to a SD than an SD could ever get to being a kensai.

With these changes, it has evened up more. The Kensai is still the better combatant in terms of tactic DC's, to-hit and damage. It's just the SD has gained on that a little now and has it's own perk of extra hitpoints and some more AC.

A closer comparison that interests me is what the new earth monk changes mean in comparison to DOS and SD prestige's. On the one hand i'm happy that I have a third defensive alternative, on the other hand, it bothers me a bit at how they keep pajama class in the same upper tier of defense as plate/shield wearers. But that's a different thread.

Back to the topic. It now really depends on your goal as opposed to before. If you want top notch DPS yet still have the ability to have a reasonable tank mode with a gear swap..Kensai is the way to go. If you want to be main tank, it's DS all the way. However, in my mind it just means that they both have a clear specialty now.

A Kensai can still throw on a shield with shield mastery and be pretty butch on defense and a DS can take the twf or thf line and be pretty reasonable on offense.

Munkenmo
11-07-2011, 01:17 PM
a better question is: why build a dps toon when you can build a tank?

cause if we all built tanks we'd be self healing casters rendering kensai and stalwart obsolete?

wax_on_wax_off
11-08-2011, 12:57 AM
a better question is: why build a dps toon when you can build a tank?

Because a kensei isn't just a DPS toon (or doesn't have to be) but can also be a tactics build (you get bonus DC, might as well use it).

Auto-attack and afk is getting further and further from being a viable game play strategy which is a good thing. Fort reduction abilities, better tactics, harder quests all combines for a more active style of play which I like :)

PestWulf
11-08-2011, 09:55 AM
actually, I really wouldn't mind seeing Kensai get a bigger boost to tactics use. Kensai is a specialist and a skilled/tactical fighter. I would like to see that emphasized a bit more, like in a couple seconds of cooldown reduction on tactic abilities with the 18 prestige.

arminius
11-08-2011, 10:10 AM
My problem with Kensai and tactics is that by the time you get the ridiculous number of feats required for Kensai, there are no room for the tactics! I have a Halfling fighter who uses the dragonmarks, and with the 3 dragonmark feats, power attack, improved crit slashing, khopesh, toughness, the 3 TWF feats, OTWF, and the great gob of prerequisites for Kensai, that's it, no feat slot available for any tactical feat (I want Improved Sunder, which seems to be almost a requirement for fighters now).

Yeah I know I could drop the dragonmarks, but they do a LOT of healing with a potency VI item, and it has saved me and/or my party many times. Still I may have to go Stalwart just to have room for Improved Sunder, which is annoying to feel backed into a corner into doing.

Is there a DPS Stalwart build out there that I could look and see how the feats open up in comparison to Kensai? Are some of the Kensai requirement feats still good to use on a DPS Stalwart build, since after all they do increase to-hit and damage?

Mercureal
11-08-2011, 11:00 AM
My problem with Kensai and tactics is that by the time you get the ridiculous number of feats required for Kensai, there are no room for the tactics! I have a Halfling fighter who uses the dragonmarks, and with the 3 dragonmark feats, power attack, improved crit slashing, khopesh, toughness, the 3 TWF feats, OTWF, and the great gob of prerequisites for Kensai, that's it, no feat slot available for any tactical feat (I want Improved Sunder, which seems to be almost a requirement for fighters now).

Yeah I know I could drop the dragonmarks, but they do a LOT of healing with a potency VI item, and it has saved me and/or my party many times. Still I may have to go Stalwart just to have room for Improved Sunder, which is annoying to feel backed into a corner into doing.

Is there a DPS Stalwart build out there that I could look and see how the feats open up in comparison to Kensai? Are some of the Kensai requirement feats still good to use on a DPS Stalwart build, since after all they do increase to-hit and damage?

You don't need OTWF on a kensai, as you really shouldn't have problems hitting - just drop it and put a tactical feat in its place. But yes, the weapon feats needed for kensai are still worth having on another fighter - they're not required, but bonuses to hit and damage are useful to any melee if you can fit them in.

Standard fighter feat choices aren't going to differ that much, outside of the what's needed for the PREs, so you don't really need to see a 'Stalwart' build. You'll save 3 or 4 feats by going SD 3 instead of Kensai 3.

R0cksteady
11-08-2011, 12:15 PM
Why build either? FvS can do more damage, heal, buff and it's CC and insta kill options beat a few combat feats.

If you're going for what's best no one would roll melees, ever. The game is unbalanced as hell.

People roll fighters because they like fighters, so what's the point of not going the route that you would prefer to play over the route that's considered more beneficial?

SensaiRyu
11-09-2011, 02:39 PM
... because I already have an SD build and I want something different.

Chai
11-09-2011, 02:51 PM
Tactics - stunning trash and lowering fort on bosses.
More boosts.
Higher damage.

I do like that they raised HP, str and con, of stalwart, and lessened the movement penalty, as it makes it more of a debate as to which one is better, which will now depend more on the situation.

maddmatt70
11-09-2011, 03:02 PM
I think the OP should clarify the question that was posed. The truth of the matter is a kensai is better in the vast majority of content in game because the kensai has more then sufficient hit points and defensive capabilities and does more dps. Power Surge is extremely powerful where there are frequent shrines and lets not forgot about the little other benefits the kensai gets with dps and tactics. It really is only in some raid situations or in content where shrines are very infrequent that the stalwart starts to prevail; specifically, less then 10 raids/quests in DDO of course some of those are key quests in the current end game such as the Lord of Blades.

Madchicken
11-09-2011, 04:38 PM
Just get completionist and become a super caster problem solved,case closed, now you just have 12 lives to look forward to for that 13th =D

sephiroth1084
11-09-2011, 04:40 PM
Why build either? FvS can do more damage, heal, buff and it's CC and insta kill options beat a few combat feats.

If you're going for what's best no one would roll melees, ever. The game is unbalanced as hell.

People roll fighters because they like fighters, so what's the point of not going the route that you would prefer to play over the route that's considered more beneficial?


Just get completionist and become a super caster problem solved,case closed, now you just have 12 lives to look forward to for that 13th =D
Got to love entirely pointless and unhelpful comments like these.

Emili
11-10-2011, 11:53 AM
You don't need OTWF on a kensai, as you really shouldn't have problems hitting - just drop it and put a tactical feat in its place. But yes, the weapon feats needed for kensai are still worth having on another fighter - they're not required, but bonuses to hit and damage are useful to any melee if you can fit them in.

Standard fighter feat choices aren't going to differ that much, outside of the what's needed for the PREs, so you don't really need to see a 'Stalwart' build. You'll save 3 or 4 feats by going SD 3 instead of Kensai 3.



... as long as you're may maintain a +61 to-hit -pre buffed. Anything below that and you're no longer tactic either. You must hit to land tactics. Epic end game require a constant 60+ to 70's to hit to actually make your tactic DCs useful. You're not rolling a stunning, sundering nor tripping DC unless you're hitting first and am sorry if your to-hit is sub 60 you're wasting your time attempting them.

Mine stands at +66 before PA is on and believe it or not I noticed a in game drop in my tactics when I removed Spring attack because I am a mover not a stanf in place (I hate standinging in one place am a fidgity doll I suppose) and I had to place it back.

Yes... I'm sorry if you're sub 60 to-hit unbuffed and planning around tacticals you need to be a monk not a kensei fighter... least with those you have the speed and turn around time to regain and land the tactic quicky, 10 sec cooldown just is not cool on a kensei unless you manage to hit and land the tactic least 60%...

The major concern I have at the moment with Kensei are HP and DR... tactics + PrE take up feat slots where DS can add in DPS and some HP then with stance gain up it all... Then tactics themselves - only applicable on trash mob/orange all of which easily controlled via mana and other means. I no longer get excited 'bout tripping, stunning or even sundering even the epic orange named as usually it's webbed or dancing in a second.

Take Epic LoB - you are not tanking that without 800+ hp. So's a DS, DoS or even barb make the grade for tank and for off tank - switches - is best to have a second DS, DoS or barb ... a twf kensei with more than one toughness feat and are missing keys to tacticals (a goal in the PrE)... Playing a kensei in there you're also at a grave disadvantage as a dps - your boosts are numbered and you're in a prolonged fight which often passes well over an hour... now we're speaking resource management, I have to manage spurts and is worse than managing clerical resources in that quest. The barbs, monks and rangers are actually a better DPS class to take in there... This was why a while back I asked opinion on this forum about an idea if it may be a decent idea to place a timed regen for these boosts - to which most answered no. Then there's gearing amp/dps items like eClaw also sport threat... you find yourself taking things down to adjust to the tank.

IMHO... Kensei is a second class dead PrE in end game at the moment, and I speak of this from the perspective of REAL end-game epics eMA and eLoB - the rest of the Epics ARE NOT. DS is fine in all content as stands, the DPS diefferences are NOT that grave when considering gearing the DS towards DPS in those times when not being AGRO magnet and the PrE is far more survivable. Even if we take a look at something simple as an elite shroud ... that DS has a better chance of running out of the blades post u12.


Keep in mind kensai also get access to rage and madstone that a stalwart can't use while in stance. So the str score is often much higher and the con is usually the same as a stalwart.

Having a lev 20 kensai and stalwart I can say the dps is much more than a few points more dmg.

Are we madstoned on back of eLoB? chances are no... first he's pounding the tank an' usually you do not want to. Do you need these things for trash? Simply put no... Rages are best served by spell or barb.


Kensia is still adding a fair bit more DPS with the additional damage on your weapon for tiers I and II and the increased crit range on tier III.
Total +4 of you compared DS in stance vs Kensei Boost outside improved threat easily made up for with gear in many cases.

Kensai offers more to-hit.
The PrE's saving grace

Kensai offers quite a bit more damage with extra uses of Haste Boost (and Human Damage Boost if you go that route).
Short lived boosts are becomming passe with high HP boss' an' prolonged end fights.

Kensai offers better tactics DCs.
Trash cleaners which any class may do easily... even my SS bard.

If you are comfortable with your HP where it is, but want DPS, Kensai is still the winner for most content I should think.
Except current focus end game are just as many other DPS classes suffice an' fair better.

Stalwart is a little more versatile as its bonuses apply irrespective of weapon or duration of quest, and makes you more resilient.
... an' why DS is a better rounded fighter.



Call me disenchanted or underwhelmed but a fighter should be 'bouts feats... the building blocks of which right now completely suck in providing for this PrE. If you want DPS plenty other better classes provide the same or adequate, if you want tactics - they are pretty back seat an' some of the best be had and maintained on other classes too...