Getting mixed signals about paladin build/play

[sumnz]

Some I run with say forsake everything for max str, gimp chr to achieve this. Some say a balanced stat line including at least 14 chr is mandatory.

Some people tell me that the spells suck, and they just use madstone boots for a boost, and LoH for heals. Some say madstone are the worst item you can put on your paladin.

Are madstone boots useful if your trying to be dps, seems like the drawbacks for paladins and fvs are far too harsh.

[Khayvan]

With Divine Might, points in CHA are worth more damage than points in STR. But STR is just as important to a paladin as it is to any melee so it is your priority. But never gimp CHA, it powers your smites, your saves, your LoH and your Divine Mights. I like to start with a base 16 CHA. This lets me qualify for DM 3 with a +2 tome, which I find to be a good cut off due to the cost of higher CHA and the AP cost of DM 4.

The spells don't suck. Divine Favor, Zeal and Prayer are great combat spells that I keep running as much as possible. The paladin gets a lot of its power from its blue bar and you have to be pretty good at juggling the short-term buffs to make the most of it.

Further more, there are a bunch of useful buffs like Resists, Protection from Evil, Death Ward and Stalwart Pact. You may not need to cast these all the time, but they're very handy to have on hand.

And then there's the healing spells, up to Cure Serious. A paladin properly built and geared for it is a great self-healer, an extremely survivable toon.

Madstone I use when I have Extend on my paladins. With the buffs extended to over 4 minutes each they outlast the MS rage. I usually just use the clicky, sometimes I keep them on for big fights that I expect not to last over 4 minutes. You kind of just have to learn when and where to use them.

Both Madstone and Extend are luxuries for paladins, not game-breaking must-haves.

Different story for FvS. Even on a melee Soul I would never give up my casting for the benefits of MS Rage.

[Hobgoblin]

another thing to consider, is that the dos prestige class is really good now, and the stance prevents madstone rage procs and rages.

hob

[t0r012]

Welcome to paladins in DDO.
Feat starved so tough choices there
Ap starved so tough choices there
Stat starved so tough choices there
And now with DoS changes tough choice between PrEs.

About the only thing that isn't tough choices are spell selection. They are all pretty weak some are so valuable makes them no brainers.

Well and alignment choice is pretty easy ;p

[Vormaerin]

The reason that you are getting mixed signals is that there are two ways to play a paladin.

If you want to play with a very active special ability centered style, paladins with good charisma are well suited to that. Might, Smite, Sacrifice, and various spells will keep you very busy hitting the buttons that you want active to maximize effectiveness. Players who enjoy that and are good at it should get a solid Charisma. Probably starting at 16 as recommended above.

On the other hand, many players prefer to sacrifice a little bit of effectiveness for ease of play. Going all out on Strength and Con instead of Charisma will allow you to cut down on the number of different short duration effects you need to keep renewing. This is a better way to play if you feel that keeping all those effects active during a fight is too much hassle.

A high Charisma paladin who doesn't keep all his clickies going is weaker than a paladin who doesn't bother with Cha and builds more like a fighter. So you just need to figure out what suits you.

[Orange-Silk]

The reason that you are getting mixed signals is that there are two ways to play a paladin.

If you want to play with a very active special ability centered style, paladins with good charisma are well suited to that. Might, Smite, Sacrifice, and various spells will keep you very busy hitting the buttons that you want active to maximize effectiveness. Players who enjoy that and are good at it should get a solid Charisma. Probably starting at 16 as recommended above.

On the other hand, many players prefer to sacrifice a little bit of effectiveness for ease of play. Going all out on Strength and Con instead of Charisma will allow you to cut down on the number of different short duration effects you need to keep renewing. This is a better way to play if you feel that keeping all those effects active during a fight is too much hassle.

A high Charisma paladin who doesn't keep all his clickies going is weaker than a paladin who doesn't bother with Cha and builds more like a fighter. So you just need to figure out what suits you.

Well, the only ability you're losing by taking less cha is divine might, which granted, is a bit of a hassle to keep going, but +6dmg is nothing to scoff at. You still have to: Zeal, Divine Power, Divine Sacrifice constantly and Smite or Lay on Hands ocassionally, not to mention cha gives you awesome saves, and that's one of the few selling points of a class so far behind other melees in DPS (even with all their stuff going).

[wax_on_wax_off]

The reason that you are getting mixed signals is that there are two ways to play a paladin.

If you want to play with a very active special ability centered style, paladins with good charisma are well suited to that. Might, Smite, Sacrifice, and various spells will keep you very busy hitting the buttons that you want active to maximize effectiveness. Players who enjoy that and are good at it should get a solid Charisma. Probably starting at 16 as recommended above.

On the other hand, many players prefer to sacrifice a little bit of effectiveness for ease of play. Going all out on Strength and Con instead of Charisma will allow you to cut down on the number of different short duration effects you need to keep renewing. This is a better way to play if you feel that keeping all those effects active during a fight is too much hassle.

A high Charisma paladin who doesn't keep all his clickies going is weaker than a paladin who doesn't bother with Cha and builds more like a fighter. So you just need to figure out what suits you.

So ... play a paladin how the class is designed or play a paladin like a fighter and have gimp DPS? If you can't be bothered to keep up with how paladins are supposed to be played then another class is probably a better choice :)

To note, this observation isn't based on what charisma score to take, just in general.

I think the real balancing point between how much to invest in charisma on a paladin is your weapon style preference. THF'ing gets a lot less benefit from DM than what a TWF'ing build gets. I'd definitely want to have DMIII on any TWF'ing build (and have the option for DMIV should a +4 tome be pulled) but I'd be fine with much less charisma on a THF'ing build (6 point investment so 12 or 14 depending on race).

[Vormaerin]

Well, the only ability you're losing by taking less cha is divine might, which granted, is a bit of a hassle to keep going, but +6dmg is nothing to scoff at. You still have to: Zeal, Divine Power, Divine Sacrifice constantly and Smite or Lay on Hands ocassionally, not to mention cha gives you awesome saves, and that's one of the few selling points of a class so far behind other melees in DPS (even with all their stuff going).

I don't recommend avoiding DM, but there are a lot of players who will argue that strength is 'always on' while DM isn't, so its easier to just go with Strength. You don't need "real" Charisma for the saves, but you do for DM.

As for the "way it was meant to be played" mentioned by the other poster, I guess that rules out any 28pt paladins, huh? Because you aren't going to have any decent strength, decent Cha, twf paladins on a 28pt build. And they aren't going to have the guaranteed Tomes, for that matter. So there really is a question on whether you should go Cha or Strength. If you go Cha and you don't keep DM going pretty much constantly, you are going to be hurting big time. So its the issue I raised above.

[Orange-Silk]

I don't recommend avoiding DM, but there are a lot of players who will argue that strength is 'always on' while DM isn't, so its easier to just go with Strength. You don't need "real" Charisma for the saves, but you do for DM.

As for the "way it was meant to be played" mentioned by the other poster, I guess that rules out any 28pt paladins, huh? Because you aren't going to have any decent strength, decent Cha, twf paladins on a 28pt build. And they aren't going to have the guaranteed Tomes, for that matter. So there really is a question on whether you should go Cha or Strength. If you go Cha and you don't keep DM going pretty much constantly, you are going to be hurting big time. So its the issue I raised above.

You can't and shouldn't try to have a 28pt twf paladin, it's just too stat demanding, I'm struggling with mine and it's a TR, so we'll leave twf out for now.

Now, down to THF, I can't see why not go 18 str, 14 con 14 cha or 16 str 16con 15 cha. Even on a half-orc, to get the most out of that big axe, 18 str 15 con 14 cha is doable, cha is important, and you don't have to gimp your str to get it to reasonable lvls. I'd go 16 str, 15 con, 16 cha, human, which seems very balanced, and with a +2 tome (not impossible, quite common once you start raiding) you'd be at DM III already, if I wanted to go full ******, half-orc 18str 15 con 14cha would get me the most milk out of THF and DM II in the case of a tome, either way I'm not gimping other stats of the char to get cha.

As for spells, zeal and divine power are awesome things, 10% doublestrike is awesome on a THF and +3 to hit and damage are always welcome, much more than some madstone. Of course, just dumping cha and going madstone is much easier button-wise, but by then you're just playing a gimpy fighter.

[elraido]

You can't and shouldn't try to have a 28pt twf paladin, it's just too stat demanding, I'm struggling with mine and it's a TR, so we'll leave twf out for now.

Now, down to THF, I can't see why not go 18 str, 14 con 14 cha or 16 str 16con 15 cha. Even on a half-orc, to get the most out of that big axe, 18 str 15 con 14 cha is doable, cha is important, and you don't have to gimp your str to get it to reasonable lvls. I'd go 16 str, 15 con, 16 cha, human, which seems very balanced, and with a +2 tome (not impossible, quite common once you start raiding) you'd be at DM III already, if I wanted to go full ******, half-orc 18str 15 con 14cha would get me the most milk out of THF and DM II in the case of a tome, either way I'm not gimping other stats of the char to get cha.

As for spells, zeal and divine power are awesome things, 10% doublestrike is awesome on a THF and +3 to hit and damage are always welcome, much more than some madstone. Of course, just dumping cha and going madstone is much easier button-wise, but by then you're just playing a gimpy fighter.

Personally, I would never go to an 18 starting str on a paladin. Take those one or two points and put them in to charisma. Look at it this way. Going from 16 to 18 is +1 to hit and damage. Going from Divine Might I to III is going from +2 damage to +6 damage. Personally, I would take the increase in Divine Might.

Not only that, but you should be pumping as much into UMD as possible. That in turn means having a decent Charisma score.

[Enoach]

Of all of the classes the Paladin can have the most Spread of attribute dependency that if not considered carefully can cause issues and even distress to the player. Its because of this that so many non-paladin (or one time) players don't like or think of this class as gimp'd.


Strength - Bread and butter of melee determines to-hit and to-damage bonus
Dexterity - TWF requirement, need a base+tome 15 to qualify for and 17 to qualify for the next tier
Constitution - Determines Health also very important for Melee
Intelligence - Base+Tome of 13 is needed to Qualify for Combat Expertise - Not needed for all builds
Wisdom - Determines the SP total (small effect but for a class that also get very little SP every little bit counts) need a modified wisdom of 14 to cast highest level spells. This is reachable with a Base 8 and +6 Wisdom item - Builds will sometimes sacrifice here
Charisma - Determines the number of Turns/DMs Base+Tome 14/16/18/20 to qualify /Part of calculation for LoH


No other class can put every attribute to good use.

That being said you will notice you cannot do it all. Pure Paladin is Limited to 7 Feats (8 human). Its advantages are in its ability to Buff, self/target heal, and melee strikes like divine sacrifice and divine might.

As a 28 pt Paladin I would pick one focus be it

TWF
THF
Defender


I would also recommend against starting a paladin with 18 strength, and its because the paladin can get so much out of so many Attributes.

Going with a TWF or THF Paladin is also cheaper as many of those builds will not put build points into Wisdom and Intelligence. This leaves more points for Str, Dex, Con and Chr.

The 32 pt Paladin has 4 more points of flexability and the Drow Paladin also gains 2 to Dex, Int, Chr but will have to use some of that gain to offset the lose in Con.

Also to get the best from a Paladin don't play them like a Fighter or Barbarian they won't match up going that route, but if you play them like a Paladin (using the smites/DS/DM/Turn based effects/Buff Spells) you will find that they can stand were even angles fear to tread.

Note on Madstone: Clicky abilities like DM/DS/Boosts etc still work while Madstone, what you are giving up is Spell casting and use of magical item clickies. This is 2.5 Minutes + any Procs while wearing the boots. One strategy is to buff up before boss fight. Click these boots and then change the boots out. Use this for fights where 2.5 minutes of the lose of Spell casting from you is not needed, but the bonus to str and con will be an advantage.

Madstone can be applied outside of Defensive stance, you can then take stance and still keep the benefits and the cost. In stance it will not proc so you can continue to wear the boots, or switch them out for a pair of boots with other benefits.

[zwiebelring]

My main is a KoTC THF Paladin atm and I gave up on using Madstone boots because I can support better with incombat options of Spells, LoHS, Unyielding (I didn't want to risk the loss of these and never tried if you actually can use this while madstoned) and even Scrolls. I built him for THF and ignored AC so you have *only* 3 stats to focus on: STR for base dps, CON for all over hp and CHA for saves, LoH iirc and in case of my toon, UMD use.

Divine Might was annoying to keep running, so I changed the APs for more STR and CON. The KoTC is in base specialized on fighting chaotic evil outsiders. I never want to miss my ability to stun Xoriath creatures on a safe range. Therefor a high CHA can be useful and in HoX raids the usual killing team doesn't even need a full healer with it, I can fullfill this role.

My conclusion:
If you build a Paladin for a high base dps without clickie-maniac you probably do not need higher CHA than 12 or 14 because you sure want to have more multiclassing anyway (especially TWF Paladins). If you build up for the inherent design a higher CHA is a benefit. But still not a must.

[Orange-Silk]

My conclusion:
If you build a Paladin for a high base dps without clickie-maniac you probably do not need higher CHA than 12 or 14 because you sure want to have more multiclassing anyway (especially TWF Paladins). If you build up for the inherent design a higher CHA is a benefit. But still not a must.

Paladin benefits a lot from not multiclassing, the capstone is quite nice (less so now that there's arties around but still). Now, if you build a paladin without making full use of your clickies you're doing really sub-par DPS, look at the paladin abilities and tell me if aside from capstone or KotC do we get a single passive dps benefit, everything pallies have going for dps is a various assortment of clickies/buffs that have to be kept on constantly.

Even with all the clickies going, your DPS is still quite lower than a barb's or a fighter's. So dropping CHA, and thus dropping DM, the extra saves, LoH power, turns, UMD makes absolutely no sense, you lose what makes a paladin barely worth it in comparison to a fighter (saves, loh and UMD) LOSE dps (6 damage per hit, multiplies on a crit, that's a lot) and gain nothing to make up for it (maybe a couple to-hit and dmg, fighters still have it better).

CHA is a must, 12 is definitively no good, and 14 is really pushing it, 16 is a nice sweetspot (DM III on a +2 tome, IV on a +4) and some builds taking 18 aren't completely unheard of (really hard to pull off tho).

[Jandric]

Check out Junts' guide to Paladins. It's the best resource I've seen for building Pallys, bar none.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542

[zwiebelring]

Even with all the clickies going, your DPS is still quite lower than a barb's or a fighter's.
For a past life feat it is enough.


16 is a nice sweetspot
Which I took but Divine Might was just not possible, Divine Sacrifice had to be enough.

[Orange-Silk]

For a past life feat it is enough.


Which I took but Divine Might was just not possible, Divine Sacrifice had to be enough.

Divine might really needs a casting time workover... and you're right, but I'd hate to see paladins become a class everyone uses just for a past life, which, incidentally, grants a paladin special spell.