Updating the Pretzels Build for U11

[Darkrok]

Quite awhile ago I made a build for my young son (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=297416&highlight=pretzel+sticks)...he wanted a thief-acrobat that was tough enough to get in there and mix it up.

I'm trying to update it a bit to make it more useful in U11 and was interested in people's thoughts. My comments after the build.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Pretzel Sticks
Level 20 True Neutral Half-Elf Male
(6 Fighter \ 1 Barbarian \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 292
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 16
Will: 8

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 26
Dexterity 14 19
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 13 15
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 13 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 26
Bluff 1 3
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy 5 26
Disable Device 5 27
Haggle 1 3
Heal -1 0
Hide 6 17
Intimidate 1 3
Jump 3 28
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 6 21
Open Lock 6 8
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 2
Search 5 25
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 9
Tumble 6 29
Use Magic Device 5 26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Half-Elf Dilettante) Half-Elf Dilettante: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Barbarian)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Hamstring


Level 20 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) II
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante I
Enhancement: Improved Paladin Dilettante II
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct I
Enhancement: Rogue Wrack Construct II
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device I
Enhancement: Improved Disable Device II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Half-Elf Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Wand and Scroll Mastery I

[Darkrok]

Ok, here's the tradeoffs I made (note: original build left 6ap unspent):
1) Dropped Force of Personality for Improved Sunder. Will save takes a hit but it's Improved Sunder is really a must now. Fit in the Fighter Sunder II line by dropping 1 point in saves from the Paladin Dilettante III.
2) Dropped WF: Bludg/WS: Bludg to pick up Hamstring and Quick Draw. This wasn't done necessarily for those two feats (though I do like them obviously) but more because I can't really fit in the AP's for Kensei I anymore.
3) Took Haste Boost/Human Versatility to IV instead of II and added an extra action boost. With the changes to damage boosts the boosted dps gets a HUGE bump. It's worth the AP, especially for the type of content this toon will be running (Shrouds, VoD's, etc...not so much epics) to maximize that short-term damage. I stole those points from Kensei primarily (Kensei saved 11 points, this cost 16 more).
4) Took Disable Device II to open Wrack Construct II (total cost 5 points). Got these points in part by dropping some tiers of sneak damage. Normally I wouldn't do this but I see this toon doing a TON of shroud and saw first-hand last night what toons that can improved sunder/wrack/destruction a portal can do to a shroud run.
5) Picked up tier 1 of sneak to-hit, tier 1 of barbarian power attack, and tier 1 of Wand and Scroll Mastery.

Things I may do not included here:
1) Swap Dilettante to Artificer. This would free up 8ap's I currently spend on Paladin Charisma (to get to an even number) and Improved Paladin Dilettante. This would end up costing me 4 points on my current saves but would add 1 to my UMD check and allow me to drop 1 point somewhere else and pick up the entire Wand/Scroll line.
2) Rethink Quickdraw and/or Hamstring to fit in the option to go Stalwart Defender (highly doubt this but the thought did occur to me.

Interested in any thoughts anyone has here. I still want to keep this playable for my young son so it needs to stay durable but at the same time I want to make it a nice cog in the easy and mid-difficulty raids with solid tactics contributions, good damage, and nice UMD.

[Dirichlet]

Wondering why the odd Dex/Int final figures? Unless you're planning a particular gear combo (Buccaneer's and a +1 ExInt Tempest Rune say?). You could start 13 Dex, 14 Int and be pretty much the same other than having a few extra skill points to work with.

I'd take Bluff instead of Diplomacy. Bluff can be used as an aggro management tool in groups much like Diplo, but it has so much more utility on top for a Rogue, especially solo and short-man.

I've started a spreadsheet for Acrobat dps that you can see in the Big F'n Stick thread. It's supposed to be for comparing THF to TWF, but you should be able to get at least some insight into a build like this from it (still lots to add, but hopefully updates coming soon™). Mainly I'm looking at your choice of dropping Kensei. Under certain conditions you might be right, but if you could drop Haste Boost and Human Versatility to III from IV and still pick up Kensei I, I imagine that would be an upgrade in most situations. That's the sort of thing a spreadsheet will tell you better than any speculation. I still need to add in a downtime from the boosts which should help account for Quickdraws effect, but when I've done that you should be able to use it to help with that decision.

Seems funny taking 6 Fighter and not taking a prestige. Enhancements aside Monk is going to be more dps than Fighter, though that does exclude the Barb splash. While we're on the subject, if you're not taking a Monk splash, why not more Barb? There's a build from a while back I remember that does Acrobat/Barb: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=317844

Improved Sunder is something I'm very much considering for my Acrobat's next life, in fact I'm even considering one or more Fighter past lives just to make it work. No idea if it'll work against raid bosses, and if it does how much, but I figure a build like this (mostly Rogue) that gains a lot from fort reduction and can spare the feat (unlike pure Rogues) should probably take it.

[Darkrok]

Wondering why the odd Dex/Int final figures? Unless you're planning a particular gear combo (Buccaneer's and a +1 ExInt Tempest Rune say?). You could start 13 Dex, 14 Int and be pretty much the same other than having a few extra skill points to work with.

I'd take Bluff instead of Diplomacy. Bluff can be used as an aggro management tool in groups much like Diplo, but it has so much more utility on top for a Rogue, especially solo and short-man.

I've started a spreadsheet for Acrobat dps that you can see in the Big F'n Stick thread. It's supposed to be for comparing THF to TWF, but you should be able to get at least some insight into a build like this from it (still lots to add, but hopefully updates coming soon™). Mainly I'm looking at your choice of dropping Kensei. Under certain conditions you might be right, but if you could drop Haste Boost and Human Versatility to III from IV and still pick up Kensei I, I imagine that would be an upgrade in most situations. That's the sort of thing a spreadsheet will tell you better than any speculation. I still need to add in a downtime from the boosts which should help account for Quickdraws effect, but when I've done that you should be able to use it to help with that decision.

Seems funny taking 6 Fighter and not taking a prestige. Enhancements aside Monk is going to be more dps than Fighter, though that does exclude the Barb splash. While we're on the subject, if you're not taking a Monk splash, why not more Barb? There's a build from a while back I remember that does Acrobat/Barb: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=317844

Improved Sunder is something I'm very much considering for my Acrobat's next life, in fact I'm even considering one or more Fighter past lives just to make it work. No idea if it'll work against raid bosses, and if it does how much, but I figure a build like this (mostly Rogue) that gains a lot from fort reduction and can spare the feat (unlike pure Rogues) should probably take it.

Yeah, this class split is way out of date. Unfortunately it's what I've got to work with at the moment. :) Bluff wasn't what it is now and I'd definitely take it over diplo now. The int was lower simply because this toon isn't going to get any +2 tomes so the +1 tome got it to an even number. :)

You're right on the boosts. It's 10ap for the 4th tier boost and the extra use versus 10ap for the kensei pre-req's and kensei (can add 1ap to kensei for the quarterstaff mastery but that's not a big thing). I definitely need to look at what you linked to decide which is better but I think you're definitely on to something there. Only downside is that I do lose the two feats to get it as well so no hamstring/quickdraw.

Yeah, improved sunder is a godsend here too. :)

One other thought I've been kicking around with the kid. I can do quickdraw/hamstring for the last two feats or do something wacky and once I've swapped in Artificer Dilettante I could go for Rapid Reload/PBS. Would give some decent ranged damage with a heavy repeater in situations that like DQ/LoB's where I might not want to be in melee range. Not sure which of the 3 I like most but they all seem to be good options.