Arcanes: please assume your party could use Blur.

[bokaboka]

I know you have Blur, I can see it on you.
You know I don't have Blur, there are no lines around me.
We both know how useful Blur is.

Can we please go back to the days where I didn't have to remember to ask for Blur every single quest?
Even after I do ask for it, newer players seem too shy to make the request.

Even if you look down on poor lowly melees, do it for your fellow Blue-bars, the healers.
Very few spells beat the defensive "bang-for-your buck" of Blur.

I know you're not my buff-bot, and hate me for it if you must, but please just give everyone Blur!

[Darknark]

I know you have Blur, I can see it on you.
You know I don't have Blur, there are no lines around me.
We both know how useful Blur is.

Can we please go back to the days where I didn't have to remember to ask for Blur every single quest?
Even after I do ask for it, newer players seem too shy to make the request.

Even if you look down on poor lowly melees, do it for your fellow Blue-bars, the healers.
Very few spells beat the defensive "bang-for-your buck" of Blur.

I know you're not my buff-bot, and hate me for it if you must, but please just give everyone Blur!

If you don't ask for it, you won't get it.

Too many people have guard effects (or for spellcasters Torc/conc-opp) and actually want to get hit.

I get annoyed with people when they displace me. If they blur me I get even more annoyed. At least the displacement is gone *soon*... the blur is there for the next 20mins - shrine. (i'm a caster with conc-opps and torc, and hate not getting sp back)

The only time I throw it without being asked is EDA (or any epic without True sight, were the melee is taking a beating) and only on melees, and not blur, usually Displacement for 'end of wave' boss fights.

[Delt]

Plenty of players like getting hit. Used to be mainly for Torc/Conc, but there are plenty of other on-hit items now.

And then there are items like smoke or the mabar cloak. Blur does squat.

All in all, your suggestion is fail. If *you* want blur, ask I guess. Or make some items.

[Cauthey]

Hmm?

Yeah, Metalbone doesn't carry Blur. And, no...you don't see it on him. It's on his cloak! :)

Mabar's right around the corner - get yourself a Mabar cloak! That'll cover your Blur needs!

If I have the SPs, I'll be happy to give you a Displacement instead, as I DO carry that.

[bokaboka]

If you don't ask for it, you won't get it.

Too many people have guard effects (or for spellcasters Torc/conc-opp) and actually want to get hit.

I get mad at people when they displace me. If they blur me I get even more annoyed. At least the displacement is gone *soon*... the blur is there for the next 20mins - shrine. (i'm a caster with conc-opps and torc, and hate not getting sp back)

The only time I throw it without being asked is EDA (or any epic without True sight, were the melee is taking a beating) and only on melees, and not blur, usually Displacement for 'end of wave' boss fights.

Oh yeah. True.
But still, there are plenty of players who don't have Torcs....

[Cauthey]

And then there are items like smoke or the mabar cloak. Blur does squat.

Dusk docent, Dusk Heart. There are several others I'm sure.

[thwart]

I like getting hit. Not because I have any cool effects. I just like getting hit. I guess that is why people call me sick.

[Fejj]

I can see casting blur on any non blue bar, but even then, there are so many items that give concealment bonuses, that casting it is a waste of SP.

I will ask if anyone wants, needs, or desires a buff from me. I only need to know once, I'll remember.

A quick "blur plz" could go a long way.

But no, too many characters want to get hit to automatically pass blur.

[Adrian99]

On a related note, I like having Merfolk's Blessing cast on me. So can all you arcanes please wise up and stop making everyone you party with request Merfolk's Blessing. It's also obvious that anyone who doesn't ask for it is too meek to ask for it, even though they really do want it and are secretly wondering if they offended you in some way since you didn't cast it on them. I swear some people are just so self-centered....

[Yan_PL]

I'd rather grease you to death than give you blur, when I can keep you displaced if you politely ask me to do so.

level 2 spells:
Resists, Invisibility (no, I won't carry scrolls of mass invisi, I've got cluttered inventory already, and I've got better spells in lvl 7 slots), Knock (i like my doors unlocked when attempting to open them), Web (it's goddamn CC with REFLEX save, and shorter cast time than danceball).

also, there are plenty of items giving perma blur.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I know you have Blur, I can see it on you.
You know I don't have Blur, there are no lines around me.
We both know how useful Blur is.

Can we please go back to the days where I didn't have to remember to ask for Blur every single quest?
Even after I do ask for it, newer players seem too shy to make the request.

Even if you look down on poor lowly melees, do it for your fellow Blue-bars, the healers.
Very few spells beat the defensive "bang-for-your buck" of Blur.

I know you're not my buff-bot, and hate me for it if you must, but please just give everyone Blur!

Or you could just ask for it.
The only buffs I give my party when I start a random epic quest is mass prot from elements, rage and haste - all of them being aoe. I don't need my party to be blurred, because they're not going to have aggro anyways. ;)

[Enoach]

Due to gear availability and ship buffs now available, Casters should not assume a buff is needed or wanted.

As a Cleric, FvS, Bard, Paladin, Wizard and Party Leader it is my responsibility to ask one question:

What buffs do people need?

As a player needing buffs your responsible for responding with a reasonable list of buffs. However, I do retain the right to refuse requested buffs.

Bottom line - We are not mind readers. If the buff or lack of the buff is desired please make that known.


As a note, even with Con-Op and Torc, blur is not a bad option as it only reduces 20% of incoming hits, and these items do not proc 100% of the time. These items are more powerful for characters that are in the Hot Zone and less effective on characters that avoid being hit.

[somenewnoob]

I have all 3 types, melee, divine, arcane.For my melee I love me some blur.....but if you don't toss it I have a nimble trinket with blur (But that doesn't let me wear my bold trinket so less dps). On my arcanes, it's one of those givens that I toss at the start of a quest and after shrines. And my divine LOVES to see thise little blurry toons running around because that makes my life SO MUCH EASIER.

On my lowbie wiz I usually say "Let me blur you guys before you run off" before we enter the quest, so if anybody doesn't want blur they can start running off!

For melees, guards aren't nearly useful enough to WANT to get hit. Not to mention that's just abusing the poor healers sp pool.

I think if I ever saw anybody refuse blur or say not to blur them, I would let them take care of their own healing! (Providing they didn't have the cloak or trinklet with perma blur)

[fuzzy1guy]

With the number of items now that have blur on them.. Especially the mabar cloak which is very popular.

And the number of people who get TICKED if you cast blur on them as standard party buffs rotation without thinking/asking first.


I don't even carry blur anymore on any caster. Frees up a slot. Makes it a non issue too. It's the simplest solution.

Far easier than asking every single person if they want this or that buff. I got tired of being yelled at for it too.

[Barashkukor]

People get the buffs they ask for, plus rage and haste. I like to be hit for proc effects and assume others have procs as well, so if people don't speak up they don't get squat.

I really don't like spending the first 2 minutes of a raid buffing then have 4-5 people moaning about getting stuff they don't want. So, I stopped and now almost everyone is happier for it.

Typing 'gh, blur, fr, jump please', once per group, saves you frustration and teaches new players to ask. :)

[slimkj]

Plenty of players like getting hit. Used to be mainly for Torc/Conc, but there are plenty of other on-hit items now.

And then there are items like smoke or the mabar cloak. Blur does squat.

All in all, your suggestion is fail. If *you* want blur, ask I guess. Or make some items.
I was going to write basically this. I Blur guildies when I know they need it, others can ask. In fact, I usually even check with guildies as there are so many good reasons to not have Blur it's worth asking.

Edit: Especially on a Wiz with limited SP. On a Sorc I might be more careless.

[mobrien316]

Can we please go back to the days where I didn't have to remember to ask for Blur every single quest?


If you want Blur, it is your responsibility to ask for it. It is NOT the arcane's responsibility to give you buffs on the off-chance you want it but forgot to ask for it.

I usually ask other players if they want anything specific after handing out the usual mass buffs. I never just go down the line buffing all eleven people with everything I have memorized. I believe if someone wants a buff from me, they should ask for it.

[madmaxhunter]

I host raids, like most of the above replies, I say at the begining of the raid "type your buffs". And they do. And it's done. And we go.

Blur
BS = Bark Skin
FoM = Freedom of Movement
TS = True Seeing
Fire, Cold, etc = Resist Fire...
Poison = Neutralize Poison
et al

[Chai]

I havent seen the response yet that outlines how theres some uber level 2 damage spell which justifies the slot therefore carrying blur is a waste. :p

[Hendrik]

I havent seen the response yet that outlines how theres some uber level 2 damage spell which justifies the slot therefore carrying blur is a waste. :p

Bard's do it better?!?

;)

[Chette]

You know I don't have Blur, there are no lines around me.

False.
There are quite a few items that give a blur-effect, but that don't show the blur graphic on people. Examples include the abbot cloak, cloak of the zephyr, and I believe the epic cloak of night (and lower level versions of this cloak) or a greensteel item of smoke. These items are RATHER prevalent at higher levels.

It is a waste of a casters SP to give blur the whole party, only to find out that certain party members have perma blur already. If you want blur, you're going to have to ask for it. So sorry to have to inconvenience you...

[Bracosius]

It is not blur you see on me, it is displace. I will not cast and keep refreshed an individual 3 minute spell for everyone in the group in a normal quest. I will always have it, the rest of you will have it as the need arises. If you want blur, get one of the numerous items it is on.

[fuzzy1guy]

imo level 2:

Must haves... Resist energy, web, knock.

Very nice... melfs, electric loop, gust of wind, invis, command undead, false life, death aura, blindness, glitterdust, fog cloud, ghoul touch, scare.


Blur can be dropped and something else picked up fairly easily to fill multiple other functions.

[gerardIII]

I know you're not my buff-bot, and hate me for it if you must, but please just give everyone Blur!
Oh and also GH because +4 to save is good for the party. Give everyone GH!

Oh and also Stoneskin because temporary physical damage absorption is good for anybody. Give everyone Stoneskin!

Oh and ...

... I'm not your buffbot. Casting Blur + Gh + Stoneskin + Energy Resists + ... makes me feel like you want me to empty my sp pool and stand behind while you slash your way through the dungeon.

[HAL]

Just curious: I don't have any of the things mentioned as reasons to not cast Blur. Sure, I could get a Mabar cloak but that's only 10% while Blur is 20%. Pretty much everything else is high level / end game content. Why do people answer a post directed at the whole game as though the whole game is high level / end game content?

Those playing through all the levels before that (except maybe TRs) would probably like a Blur. I know I would, thanks.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If I gave eleven people all of the buffs I cast on myself (Extended!) I wouldn't have any SP left to kill or control monsters with.

Seriously.


You get to have fun using your weapons in every fight. Yes, every single fight!

I don't think it is too much to ask to be able to use my SP in every fight too.

Mass buffs are cheap enough, but individual buffs are expensive.
And no one stops at just wanting a single buff either. It's a Blur, a GH, two or three resists....... adds up people. (and takes time to cast too)

[xveganrox]

Epic Phiarlan Mirror Cloak has perma-blur on it and is a nice situational item to have in general that is pretty easy to get. Wands of Blur are even easier :)

[bokaboka]

Just curious: I don't have any of the things mentioned as reasons to not cast Blur. Sure, I could get a Mabar cloak but that's only 10% while Blur is 20%. Pretty much everything else is high level / end game content. Why do people answer a post directed at the whole game as though the whole game is high level / end game content?

Those playing through all the levels before that (except maybe TRs) would probably like a Blur. I know I would, thanks.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. Not everyone has concealment items or "it's good to get hit" items. In fact I'd say that most players do not. Maybe i'll spend the next month getting some data for you guys, but I suspect most players wouldn't even know what I was talking about.


If I gave eleven people all of the buffs I cast on myself (Extended!) I wouldn't have any SP left to kill or control monsters with.

Seriously.


You get to have fun using your weapons in every fight. Yes, every single fight!

I don't think it is too much to ask to be able to use my SP in every fight too.

Mass buffs are cheap enough, but individual buffs are expensive.
And no one stops at just wanting a single buff either. It's a Blur, a GH, two or three resists....... adds up people. (and takes time to cast too)

This is not what the OP said. The only buff I ask for is blur.
On the other hand, it makes me nervous that new players do not ask for buffs anymore.

[Krelar]

Sure, I could get a Mabar cloak but that's only 10% while Blur is 20%.

It's a bug either with the description or with the item but it actually does give 20%

[Absolute-Omniscience]

This is along the lines of what I was thinking. Not everyone has concealment items or "it's good to get hit" items. In fact I'd say that most players do not. Maybe i'll spend the next month getting some data for you guys, but I suspect most players wouldn't even know what I was talking about.


Why would I spend SP on a buff that is only good if the mobs are attacking other people? A good sorc will have all the mob aggro 95% of the time, except for boss fights (assuming you've got a good hate tank, and you've got subtle spellcasting).

[HAL]

Why would I spend SP on a buff that is only good if the mobs are attacking other people? A good sorc will have all the mob aggro 95% of the time, except for boss fights (assuming you've got a good hate tank, and you've got subtle spellcasting).

Wow, I guess I suck at playing arcanes. Of course I've only played arcanes through level 17. But all this time I've been under the impression that you let someone with heavier armor get the agro before casting. I know that if I have all the agro I die very quickly, even on my PM.

I've seen threads where people talk about casters with this strategy, but they always seem to be talking about level 20s with uber gear...

[Darknark]

But all this time I've been under the impression that you let someone with heavier armor get the agro before casting.

I've seen threads where people talk about casters with this strategy, but they always seem to be talking about level 20s with uber gear...

My (yes.. TR'd.. first life was human 20 sorc) 15 WF sorc (acid savant, >400 hp, no false life item) can easily solo elite DQ (Raid) and/or elite Mired (with dragon optional). With a Docent of Defiance and Crystal cove (stoneskin) trinket, I end up gaining more sp than I use for healing (shield blocking w/ Conc-opp bastard sword, torc, conc-opp goggles, and Skyvault shield) and can keep niacs biting cold (DoT) and Acid rain/FW on Lailat.

In a party, I wear a Ring of lies (and later when i can find one, an anathema) to boost my aggro generation. I want the aggro so that I can tank it and get sp back.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Wow, I guess I suck at playing arcanes. Of course I've only played arcanes through level 17. But all this time I've been under the impression that you let someone with heavier armor get the agro before casting. I know that if I have all the agro I die very quickly, even on my PM.

I've seen threads where people talk about casters with this strategy, but they always seem to be talking about level 20s with uber gear...

Yes, I understand your point of view. It's not easy to pick up the playstyle I'm describing. It requires absolute confidence in your ability to dodge the mobs. It's not about gear, but rather jumping around and avoiding getting hit at all.

Of course, solid hp items and displacement along with stoneskin really helps as well. But for <20 content, you don't really need any super items or shroud items to nuke your way through a quest.

The tips I can give are basically:
1. Always use maximize / empower spell
2. Make sure you're displaced in tough content
3. Make sure you're stone skinned
4. Buff yourself with jump and haste
5. Don't be afraid to pull together 10-12 mobs and then throw down some aoe dots and nukes (depending on level, firewalls + fireballs, or mass hold + icestorm + acid rain + otikule's), if you don't do this you won't have enough SP to blow through the quests.

[slimkj]

Just curious: I don't have any of the things mentioned as reasons to not cast Blur. Sure, I could get a Mabar cloak but that's only 10% while Blur is 20%. Pretty much everything else is high level / end game content. Why do people answer a post directed at the whole game as though the whole game is high level / end game content?

Those playing through all the levels before that (except maybe TRs) would probably like a Blur. I know I would, thanks.
You can get Blur type effects much earlier than end game on the Mabar Cloak (8?), GS (11) and Cloak of the Zephyr (11?).

[slimkj]

I've seen threads where people talk about casters with this strategy, but they always seem to be talking about level 20s with uber gear...
You can do it much earlier than that, but moderately good gear helps, yes. Just having aggro doesn't mean you need to stand and soak it up though. A good caster can tightly weave mobs in and out of AoE around the melee. It requires some comms though. My guildies know when I'm going to play like that and adapt, as I do when they're on pewpew chars - I stand still and let them run mobs through me (and vice versa).

[Aashrym]

I would rather not assume a player needs any buff than waste SP providing a buff that player does not need. I used to hand out blur all the time and even that was met with comments about not needing it.

If a player doesn't feel the need to ask for a particular buff he or she simply doesn't feel the need to receive that buff. I've moved to expecting requests for buffs.

Just another 2cp on that topic. ;)

[HAL]

My (yes.. TR'd.. first life was human 20 sorc) 15 WF sorc (acid savant, >400 hp, no false life item) can easily solo elite DQ (Raid) and/or elite Mired (with dragon optional). With a Docent of Defiance and Crystal cove (stoneskin) trinket, I end up gaining more sp than I use for healing (shield blocking w/ Conc-opp bastard sword, torc, conc-opp goggles, and Skyvault shield) and can keep niacs biting cold (DoT) and Acid rain/FW on Lailat.

In a party, I wear a Ring of lies (and later when i can find one, an anathema) to boost my aggro generation. I want the aggro so that I can tank it and get sp back.

I think you're nitpicking a bit here. You might not be level 20 but I think TR with uber gear is close enough :rolleyes:

[HAL]

You can get Blur type effects much earlier than end game on the Mabar Cloak (8?), GS (11) and Cloak of the Zephyr (11?).

GS (11?!) I don't have GS for my 17, nevermind getting it at 11!

[Darknark]

I think you're nitpicking a bit here. You might not be level 20 but I think TR with uber gear is close enough :rolleyes:

I considered uber gear to be Epic items.. Given that I've had that character for...... under 4-5 months (most of it I didn't play it much, just a run of shroud/hox/ADQ every 3 days, after I got the torc I started using it more.)... it isn't really geared out. But I see what you mean, first life characters probably won't survive it with most of their sp pool left, if at all.

[Darknark]

GS (11?!) I don't have GS for my 17, nevermind getting it at 11!

GS at 11 is TR only. You need to be level 14 to make it, but it is ML 11 (Accessories are 11, weapons are 12), so only TR's get it at 11.

[somenewnoob]

You know, they really should raise the minimum level on GS to 14. (ducks)

[Darknark]

You know, they really should raise the minimum level on GS to 14. (ducks)

Not too much of a pain... I'd still have Torc in sands, and I'd leave DQ1/2 for running (elite/hard depending on unlock) for bravery at level 14 with the extra conc-opps.

[MrWizard]

and resist energy (not prot energy), and haste, and heroism, and...so many things.

[Enoach]

Hmmm, maybe the bottom line is this:

Ask for buffs - Worst case is you don't get it - Ok, maybe that's not the worst case...

If your tired of asking for buffs - find your own way to provide it.


As a wizard if I deemed it necessary to use my entire SP pool to buff the party, then I will. But I've not found that to be true since I was level 4.

[aristarchus1000]

Wow, I guess I suck at playing arcanes. Of course I've only played arcanes through level 17. But all this time I've been under the impression that you let someone with heavier armor get the agro before casting. I know that if I have all the agro I die very quickly, even on my PM.

I've seen threads where people talk about casters with this strategy, but they always seem to be talking about level 20s with uber gear...

That melee with heavy armor probably is getting hit every time as well at level 17.

The advantage casters have is the ability to move while doing area damage/threat. Jump back and forth, through your teammates and nobody is getting hit, since they are chasing you while the melee get free swings.

Just make sure you move through your melee so they just need to stand still and swing.

[somenewnoob]

I think there is a lot to be said for melees trying to maintain some self sufficiency.

On my fighter I have blur items, prot/resist pots for every element, rage and haste pots and clickies, potions or clickies to remove curse/blind/disease/ability damage etc, heroism clicky and pots, , barkskin........ the list goes on and on.

It's not a arcane's job to buff you. Does it help.....absolutely. But so does cc and nuking.

At higher levels you should have the necessities with you at all times.

At lower levels its much less likely that melees will have all of this stuff, which is why on my low level wiz I pretty much keep everybody blurred through the quest. But at higher levels if you're not getting a buff, you should have something to get it or something like it.

Cove just came and went, greater nimble trinket.....blur. Easy to get, min level is 4 I think. Almost no excuse for not picking one up.

[Ugumagre]

Oh, yeah, fine, blur, and displacement and high AC and donowhat!!!
And what should we hjealers do, eh? Should I delete my cleric? :mad:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/wimpow/Humor/jobs.jpg

[Krelar]

Oh, yeah, fine, blur, and displacement and high AC and donowhat!!!
And what should we hjealers do, eh? Should I delete my cleric? :mad:


Stop hjealing and start killing? :p

[Corwinsky]

On the other hand, it makes me nervous that new players do not ask for buffs anymore.

Maybe it has something to do with asking for it 5 times and not getting it while you can see it on the arcane?

So I just stop asking for it (or GH) and when I fail a quest in a group because the arcane doesn't want to play as a team player I just add one more name to my blacklist.

The best are epic sand quests (eOOB, eCOF, ) where the arcane spends the whole quests wailing, circle of death etc (no web, hold, dance) and at the end (once we're all dead) has a kill count of 3...

[Cyndrome]

Maybe it has something to do with asking for it 5 times and not getting it while you can see it on the arcane?

So I just stop asking for it (or GH) and when I fail a quest in a group because the arcane doesn't want to play as a team player I just add one more name to my blacklist.

The best are epic sand quests (eOOB, eCOF, ) where the arcane spends the whole quests wailing, circle of death etc (no web, hold, dance) and at the end (once we're all dead) has a kill count of 3...

And clearly if you had been buffed you would have succeeded.

[HAL]

And clearly if you had been buffed you would have succeeded.

So you're saying that buffs don't help?

[Cyndrome]

So you're saying that buffs don't help?

Not in the scenario described. That was more of a problem of the caster not knowing what was needed on two pretty difficult epic quests and the party not communicating the same. All the buffs in the world wouln not have made those work.

[MeliCat]

Good idea OP while leveling and it's appropriate. I also give jump. And haste and rage. And mass prot. But that's about it these days. Makes it so much easier to heal and jump/haste/rage to move and get out of the way etc so a form of damage mitigation.

I only give it once as plenty of people have blurry or blur items - including that level 4 trinket from the cove - having realised (my cleric sings at this!) that getting hit less is a *good thing*. So if it doesn't show up I'm guessing that they have an item going and won't blur them again.

Arcanes/bards can get their own.

And frankly grumpypants who has the concord op/torc thing going on, you can tell me *before* I blur you please. I'm thinking of the person who might want to heal your sorry ass rather than you grumpypants - so pipe up and say something before I blur you!

Displace, while expensive is totally worth it in certain situations - eg parts of sins elite and VOD, epic wizking, a melee taking aggro at certain point.

[Darknark]

And frankly grumpypants who has the concord op/torc thing going on, you can tell me *before* I blur you please. I'm thinking of the person who might want to heal your sorry ass rather than you grumpypants - so pipe up and say something before I blur you!



Blur is easy to cast AFTER asking: What buffs do you guys want?
It is also a PITA to remove.

Based on that, it is logical to ask before you blur.

Second, you say "arcanes and bards can get their own" so really the only people who are torcing that you are hurting are divines and healing amp pallies/rangers. The very people who you state you are trying to help.

Also, it does seem normal to be annoyed at anything that lowers your effective SP regen rate by 20%. For 20 minutes. That is a serious de-buff. Not quite sure why I am a grumpypants. This could very well be the difference between a Divine using pots to "solo heal a raid + DPS effectively" and not using pots to do the same thing.

[SHOCK_and_AWE]

My main is a sorcerer. I usually pass out three single-target buffs to any non-arcane at the start of any quest: Blur, Jump, Greater Heroism (except in Amarath).

Blur is indeed helpful to those melee who don't have an item effect. If they have such an item, I only wasted 15sp.
Jump is just plain fun to cast on non-arcanes. Usually at least one person in the party/raid immediately starts jumping around when given this buff :)
Greater Heroism is perhaps one of the most potent buffs out there. I like to think that I am saving the melee some trouble by casting a long lasting version on them instead of a skimpy 7-minute clicky.

I understand and respect the sentiment that people should ask for buffs. However, I find that casting those three buffs preempts most requests.

[voodoogroves]

I honestly don't carry blur most of the time on my wizard. Or my current first-life sorcerer.

I'm a Torc junkie though - getting a Torc is an early priority. Even then, I'll slot displacement and use it in rough spots, but rarely blur.

[LordMond63]

When you run with my Arcanes, buffing is an opt-out rather than an opt-in.

You'll get Blur, Mass Protection/Elements, Jump, Rage, Haste, Greater Heroism pretty much all of the time and I am open to requests for additional buffs that the group- and, yes, raid,- might need. If I am going to make a mistake (like tossing a hit mitigation spell on someone with Conc Opp), I'd rather the mistake be from over- rather than under-buffing.

When running my Bard, I generally sing the sp reduction song immediately upon zoning into a quest and offer to Blur/Rage/Haste to save the Arcanes some sp. I do the same before boss fights so the healers get a small reduction in sp cost for the healing spells.

So what I'm gathering from the responses to the OP is that I have no idea how to play my characters.

[Cauthey]

Hmm?

Yeah, Metalbone doesn't carry Blur. And, no...you don't see it on him. It's on his cloak! :)

Mabar's right around the corner - get yourself a Mabar cloak! That'll cover your Blur needs!

If I have the SPs, I'll be happy to give you a Displacement instead, as I DO carry that.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/the_elf/negrep1.jpg

Oh hai! If you're going to be that way, nevermind about that Displacement. And do not presume that my SPs are for you.

[SirValentine]

I know
Even if you look down on poor lowly melees, do it for your fellow Blue-bars, the healers.
Very few spells beat the defensive "bang-for-your buck" of Blur.

I know you're not my buff-bot, and hate me for it if you must, but please just give everyone Blur!

NO! NEVER! There's few things I hate more than getting Blur. Getting Displacement is about it.

Why are you telling arcanes to give their fellow blue-bars a big debuff? Some of us WANT to get hit, because we regenerate SP via the Torc and/or Concordant Opposition. 20% miss chance = 20% less free SP.

I had actually been thinking about putting up a thread requesting that arcanes stop spamming Blur on people unless they ask for it, but figured none of them would read it here anyway.

This is really is like giving Rage to an AC build, or formerly, giving Deathward to a PM in form. A debuff.

[MeliCat]

Blur is easy to cast AFTER asking: What buffs do you guys want?
It is also a PITA to remove.

Based on that, it is logical to ask before you blur.

Second, you say "arcanes and bards can get their own" so really the only people who are torcing that you are hurting are divines and healing amp pallies/rangers. The very people who you state you are trying to help.

Also, it does seem normal to be annoyed at anything that lowers your effective SP regen rate by 20%. For 20 minutes. That is a serious de-buff. Not quite sure why I am a grumpypants. This could very well be the difference between a Divine using pots to "solo heal a raid + DPS effectively" and not using pots to do the same thing.

Ah yes. Exactly the person who I was targetting with that statement.

Nup sorry thinking of the healer here. If you're a pally/divine/ranger/blue bar splash who is torcing it up then I expect you to say something. And surely by now you will do so unless you've been running with people you know or very bad pugs who help no one. It's not hard... practice typing "No blur for me". That's 14 characters to type. You could even type a "please" on the end of that.

Again, I am thinking of the party healer in this a general pug. Now if I'm running with some of the extremely advanced players on Khyber then I give nothing out and expect nothing in return unless it's specifically asked for.

So too bad if I blur you. You only have to say it once. And as I have demonstrated it's not hard to say it. Be an ass about it and I will displace you 'accidently' on a regular basis.

Also, you are one of the few who is geared enough and knowledgeable enough to run this way - I seriously hope you are not going into general pugs and screaming at them "don't blur me!!!" and setting a bad example. There might be some newer players out there who misunderstand and think "oh - I shouldn't blur rangers" or whatever. I hope that when you tell people you get annoyed at for blurring you *why* so that they can understand one of the subtleties of this game that they may not yet have come across. Torcing/conc is a more advanced form of play if you will.

But at low levels and going through in most places for most people blur is a good thing - and should be encouraged and explained why if need be. You coming here and getting grumpy about it in such a way is not helpful - why don't you phrase yourself differently? And why do you find it so hard in parties to ask not to be blurred?

[MeliCat]

Also - newer players may not even know to ask for blur... much faster to just buff then run. Or buff while running.

I'm not going to sit at the start of a quest with a little dialogue that takes 5 mins saying 'what buffs do you want?' Just buff and get going. Not hard.

Your unusual request places the onus on *you* to say something.

[SirValentine]

As a Cleric, FvS, Bard, Paladin, Wizard and Party Leader it is my responsibility to ask one question:

What buffs do people need?

As a player needing buffs your responsible for responding with a reasonable list of buffs. However, I do retain the right to refuse requested buffs.


Exactly right.

On my Cleric, I had a macro I used at the start of each (PUG) quest, that went something like this:

"Mass buffs when all are here. FoM/TS/Poison/Stalwart on request."

At the start, and after shrines, I'd throw about every mass divine buff in the spell book. But if you wanted something else, you had to ask.

Asking for your buffs is reasonable. Especially when it's something potentially detrimental or redundant, like Blur.

Though my current life, as a Wiz, I probably won't even be carrying Blur.

[in4theride75]

GH+haste+rage, anything else you had better ask for.
My casters simply don't carry blur as perhaps half of the people in my level range either don't want it or have it.
Also, while leveling no one but me ever needs it (and I use displacement). 90% of the time the rest of the party catches up to me by the time I've finished the mobs off (exceptions would be trap heavy quests). An arcane is designed for trash destruction after all.

[SirValentine]

Nup sorry thinking of the healer here.


By reducing their mana regen by 20%?



It's not hard... practice typing "No blur for me". That's 14 characters to type. You could even type a "please" on the end of that.


It's not hard to ask; I tried that for quite a while. With the "please". The problem is that almost every time I'd end up with it anyway. I don't know why. Quite a few different otherwise competent-seeming arcanes, mostly in PUGs, but also in guild and alliance runs, just did not process my request not to be blurred.

I ended up giving up on the asking method, since it had, say, a 20% success rate. Instead, I just thanked profusely those who were kind/smart enough to ASK who wanted Blur instead of just spamming it.

It's not hard to just not spam debuffs that some people don't need or don't want. Those that DO want it can ask for it.

[MeliCat]

By reducing their mana regen by 20%?



It's not hard to ask; I tried that for quite a while. With the "please". The problem is that almost every time I'd end up with it anyway. I don't know why. Quite a few different otherwise competent-seeming arcanes, mostly in PUGs, but also in guild and alliance runs, just did not process my request not to be blurred.

I ended up giving up on the asking method, since it had, say, a 20% success rate. Instead, I just thanked profusely those who were kind/smart enough to ASK who wanted Blur instead of just spamming it.

It's not hard to just not spam debuffs that some people don't need or don't want. Those that DO want it can ask for it.

Thank you or whoever for your neg rep.

Well that's kinda lame if competant casters see your wings, doesn't hear your request and still blurs you. I can totally understand your stance.

However before level 12 (conc GS) would you say it is reasonable to auto-blur? My concern is that newer players may see this thread or have been yelled at by a grumpy vet and think 'blur is bad' and default to not blurring - whereas as per the OP request blur is good. Maybe the key thing is to tell newer players of this change point.

I can't believe how many people on this thread having taken great pride not even carrying it on a wizard. That's fine if you're not pugging. But fairly inconsiderate if you're mixing it in with the masses.

[Darknark]

Thank you or whoever for your neg rep.

Well that's kinda lame if competant casters see your wings, doesn't hear your request and still blurs you. I can totally understand your stance.

However before level 12 (conc GS) would you say it is reasonable to auto-blur? My concern is that newer players may see this thread or have been yelled at by a grumpy vet and think 'blur is bad' and default to not blurring - whereas as per the OP request blur is good. Maybe the key thing is to tell newer players of this change point.



1) I don't have the rep to neg rep you. Although I think that whoever did is being childish, as you merely stated your opinion, and the only person you referred to as "grumpypants" was me, and not the neg-repper - So they really have no reason to negrep you.

2) Unwanted blur is lame, after telling people many times to not displace/blur me and still getting debuffed by it I have developed a hatred for it.

3) Conc accessory is level 11(as is the Torc) - Conc weapons are ML12 - but your concerns regarding newer players are legitimate as is your proposed "auto blur before 11" policy.

4) @ change point. Absolutely correct.

[Delt]

My concern is that newer players may see this thread or have been yelled at by a grumpy vet and think 'blur is bad' and default to not blurring

Blur is bad, so one could hope...

I make that call on the basis of my own preferences and the responses in this thread. Blur is the new Camo/Barkskin I guess -- tossing it unasked is just annoying people and worse, it's reducing efficiency. /shrug

[HAL]

Blur is bad, so one could hope...

I make that call on the basis of my own preferences and the responses in this thread. Blur is the new Camo/Barkskin I guess -- tossing it unasked is just annoying people and worse, it's reducing efficiency. /shrug

Well, I'm glad I don't run with high level PUGs / TRs then. I love blur and so do those I know (which consist of people who don't have the items you guys have).

Can I ask a favor? When a thread is aimed at the general populace (i.e. doesn't specify "high level"), can high levels / TRs PLEASE refrain from responding like it applies only to them? It's really tiring to read generic threads with responses like they are the only people in the game.

[Daggertooth]

My sorc runs epic w/ no healer. Why? Because I know how to cc and buff the melee's properly and also put out about as much dps as all the melees combined. I have not carried Blur for several years now because I have other more important spells in that slot.

99% of the time I fully buff everyone with GH and everything. Was in Epic Small Problem the other day and it was kind of a disorganized group. Most of us were about to start collecting the firewood and I had a small amount of spell points left. Lo and behold some barbarian went to go shrine and when he comes back sure enough

"GH plz" or "rage/haste/GH plz"

I had about 300 spell points, just enough to basically enable the group to do the task at hand.

Don't think I dont know who these people are. They are 2010 start date people who have an Epic Antique Great Axe so they think they're gods gift to Epics. Trust me I am not impressed. Its situations like these that show what little game knowledge these know it alls actually have. Its just a general lack of awareness because their head is too big to think they have anything else to learn.

Honestly I don't mind that people start the game, and pretty much ride the backs of all the people who have come before them. They read the forums and then walk all high and mighty into Epics like they have some business being there because they have XXX amount of hit points. But do NOT let me catch you openin up that mouth to me about anything especially a 'gh plz' when I have 5% of my spell points left for an intergral part of the quest because you decided to go shrine. As I said, I take 5 dps's on Epics on a regular basis with no healer to speak of. It -aint- due to the skill of the dps's.

[Matuse]

I've basically given up asking people to not buff me with something. They never pay attention to it, ever. I guess they just enjoy wasting spellpoints.

[Galeria]

I don't automatically cast blur on the party because:

1. The Nimble Trinket is a level 4 item.

2. Cannith Crafted Dusk is a level 4 item.

3. Mabar cloaks at level 8 have dusk.

None of these actually display the blur effect. So you can waste sp (that you have in much lower quantities at lower level) on people who already have blur.

Wizards get the spell at level 3 (it would have to take up one of their 2 prepared spell spots.) Bards and Sorcs have it available at level 4, again as one of their 2 spells at that level and it's fixed.

I certainly don't mind people asking for blur, but I don't even carry it for myself until higher levels when I have more spells available to prepare. And the higher the level, the more likely you are to waste sp buffing people who don't need it.

[Ugumagre]

Stop hjealing and start killing? :p

Killing with a Cleric?? That´s impossible!! It is moroxymoron! It is against Nature´s will!
Clerics should have 8 in Con, and maxed WIS.
And who knows, maybe, if I start killing with my cleric, I would just steal the kills of the melees with a crossbow or some low level AoE spell.

[Moltier]

I'm with the OP here. People say its a waste, and lower mana regen...
A caster will not blur/displace another caster, so almost all these post before are nonsense.

What remains are healers and blue bar melee/ranged characters. Some of these melees will heal themself, but most of the time, healers will take care of them, so they can keep up their high dps, and dont waste time. Also mass heal/cures heals everyone anyway.
A fighter or barbarian may have some guards, but nothing as usefull as a torc.
So blur will save the divines mana, coz they have to heal less. I really dont care how much mana a ranger or paladin have. As long as the healers dont have to drink mana potions, im happy.

So the last one who may not need the blur is the divine who can mana regen. Some divines can take a few hit, regen, and this strategy works like wonder with high DR.
In that case blur isnt usefull. But most of the time they dont have torc and 2 con.opp, or they dont have high HP. Loosing the cleric in the middle of a big fight isnt the best thing in my eye.

While leveling in avarage groups, its usefull on melees and divines. A cast and forget cheap spell. Extend isnt needed. In epics, it saves a tonn of mana for the divines on the long run.

[SirValentine]

Thank you or whoever for your neg rep.


Wasn't me. I've never neg-repped anyone, and really hate the practice of neg-repping just because someone disaggrees with you.



Well that's kinda lame if competant casters see your wings, doesn't hear your request and still blurs you.


That what I thought at first. But since it happened so many times, I kinda thought it was a bit more complicated. I'm guessing get in the groove and just work down the party list without thinking about it. Giving a requested buff is hard enough; "I'll get to your special requests after I'm done blurring everyone"?



However before level 12 (conc GS) would you say it is reasonable to auto-blur?


GS is 11, as is Torc. But...even then, there's lots of other spells, and not that much SP. How about slotting and getting more practice with CC? Might be MORE effective at saving healer SP than Blur.



I can't believe how many people on this thread having taken great pride not even carrying it on a wizard.


I was one who said I don't carry it. It wasn't a point of pride, just a statement of fact. At level 6 on my first arcane life, I just don't have room to slot it yet. Maybe later, maybe not.

[Truga]

OK here's the deal, OP.

If you're not in my guild I have no idea what kind of gear you're using, nor do I know if you actually want blur or not. Therefore, at the beginning of every quest where such buffs are actually relevant (you're not going to see me asking this on normal, or in quests where blur does next to nothing).

(Party) Truga: b for blur, h for heroism, r for resists.

If you type in bhr, you'll get all three. If you don't type anything you won't get anything. Asking for rage/haste usually gets you fresh ones if you missed them. Unless you tick me off by constantly running away from the group when it's clustered up and I throw fresh hastes.

Saying "I need x" on voice chat _will_ get ignored because "I" already have these buffs. If you say "<character name> needs x" you'll probably get it, but there's a chance I won't hear you because a lot of you are REALLY quiet on voice. Or one of my guildies might be saying something on mumble, in which case you got silenced.

Also, UMD+blur wands, blur scrolls, (blur pots? do those exist), smoke GS items (even gets you displacement clickies), nimble trinket, mabar cloak, dusk items.

[darthhento]

Hello, my name is Darthwolf.

I'm a lvl 16 nuke sorc. I have >1900 SP. My electric loop costs 5 SP, does 500 dmg on a crit is aoe and usually stuns mobs. My 47 SP chain lightning usually clears the room. You don't need blur when I'm in the party, I'm getting all the aggro anyway.

I'll usually haste+rage+jump the party on the begining, I won't cast rage if there's int/ac builds. I'll gladly buff you with stoneskin, displace and whatever else I got but you need to ask for it. I don't mind buffing others and watching them kill stuff.

But i do prefer to have my SP pool as high as possibe for those situations when theres a crapton of mobs in the room and party is getting beaten to highten/empower/maximise and leash out 20k damage in a few seconds.

So basicly, if you you want buffs, ask for them. Don't expect me to assume you need them, specially when I'm the one getting all the aggro.

[Astraghal]

I know you have Blur, I can see it on you.
You know I don't have Blur, there are no lines around me.
We both know how useful Blur is.

Can we please go back to the days where I didn't have to remember to ask for Blur every single quest?
Even after I do ask for it, newer players seem too shy to make the request.

Even if you look down on poor lowly melees, do it for your fellow Blue-bars, the healers.
Very few spells beat the defensive "bang-for-your buck" of Blur.

I know you're not my buff-bot, and hate me for it if you must, but please just give everyone Blur!

I completely agree, but this isn't an education issue, it's one of attitude. There are a lot of sullen and insecure types in DDO, so don't ever expect logic or common sense to prevail.

There are 2 facts that I know though:

1 - I can think of no case other than a caster recharging their SP, in which it's generally advantageous to not take 20% less physical damage. I doubt any number of guards in non-theoretical situations actually contribute enough to be worth 20% extra healing.

2 - A blur item is rarely part of any common optimal melee gear setup.

When that stops being true, I'll stop seeing a blur item as a convenience over something else I can use that contributes more to the ease and efficiency of a completion. I mean really, why do melee's even care whether they have buffs, it's not their resources being consumed. :rolleyes:

Edit - Do what I sometimes do, ask for the buff and if it's not forthcoming, court the situation in which you would have needed it to the point where it starts to become an obvious problem, but don't say anything and see what happens. The resulting manifestations of obstinacy and/or stupidity can be quite a revelation.

[Xionswift_Darkheart]

After reading this thread, and trying to come to a conclusion...

I have been debating whether my lv14 sorc should drop blur for knock. 1st life, 1st savant, and loving the power. I solo alot due to schedule and believe knock would suit my play style much better.
Having displace and plenty on sp to keep it up when needed, the thought came that blur was, for the most part, unneeded.
When in party, call it habit to displace pure melee. Everyone gets stoned, jump, haste. With the main hitters and my arcane support, fights don't last too long.

As I know not everyone has blurry items, or the packs/time to aquire such. I have displace, more effective IMO.
Would it be wise to keep both, or should displace suffice?

[Astraghal]

After reading this thread, and trying to come to a conclusion...

I have been debating whether my lv14 sorc should drop blur for knock. 1st life, 1st savant, and loving the power. I solo alot due to schedule and believe knock would suit my play style much better.
Having displace and plenty on sp to keep it up when needed, the thought came that blur was, for the most part, unneeded.
When in party, call it habit to displace pure melee. Everyone gets stoned, jump, haste. With the main hitters and my arcane support, fights don't last too long.

As I know not everyone has blurry items, or the packs/time to aquire such. I have displace, more effective IMO.
Would it be wise to keep both, or should displace suffice?

Most random casters you see are incapable of keeping a melee Displaced at the appropriate times. Many are good at handing it out before they shrine, or if you ask for a Blur, only to have it run out before you even get to the next fight and be back at square one. When I ask for a buff, I KNOW why I'm asking for it and I'm often the better judge of whether it's needed or not.

I don't know if it's because they just don't understand what the duration of their spells are, or why they are casting it, it can't be just plain stupidity or contrariness, because noone cuts off their own nose to spite their face.

I think for many casters, it's like their moment in the spotlight, when they get to show off their mastery of their class by demonstrating to the poor stupid melee who asked for Blur, that they can give them a better buff (duh!) that offers more concealment. I think it's in the throws of that particular epiphany, the casters miss the bigger picture.

Blur is cheap and effective and there's a good chance that melee actually knows more about the game than you, so just give it to them.

[Memek]

If the incoming martial damage is very heavy, Displacement would be nice to have. If it isnt, it doesnt particularly matter if you're blurred or not.

Casters who dont pass it might intend to keep the majority of the trash controlled or just kill everything or grab the aggro.

Whines for Blur dont exactly show that you know all that much about the game, it might rather show that you dont know what Blur does and what it doesnt do.

If i hear one more sobbing whine for Bluuuuur in a caster dmg heavy quest or in a party where the healer tends to shrine with half his mana, i think im gonna snap.

[Maugrim101]

There's players who will do everything they can to make a quest as smooth and easy for the whole group to complete and there's players who don't really care as long as they get their shinys in the chest at the end.

Everything else is just noise.

[mobrien316]

I agree with the OP that Blur can often be a useful buff to have. I very much disagree with his shoving off the responsibility for Blur onto the arcane.

Why should it be the arcane's responsibility to remember to Blur you, rather than your responsibility to ask for Blur if you want it?

If you want a buff, ask for it. My casters are glad to help out anyone who asks for a buff, but it is not my job to go down the line and buff everyone with every single spell I have memorized.

At the start of a quest I will throw mass buffs - if you don't want them for some reason, you should know to step aside. After that I will usually ask if anyone wants anything specific. If no one speaks up then I am done buffing.

[Daggertooth]

I think for many casters, it's like their moment in the spotlight, when they get to show off their mastery of their class by demonstrating to the poor stupid melee who asked for Blur, that they can give them a better buff (duh!) that offers more concealment. I think it's in the throws of that particular epiphany, the casters miss the bigger picture.

Blur is cheap and effective and there's a good chance that melee actually knows more about the game than you, so just give it to them.

This is mildly amusing. As the caster who knows more about the game than you do (my sorc takes 5 random melees on epics with no need for a healer), I will tell you I am not that against blur and some of what you've said makes sense but I simply do not slot it. I have a wand of it if someone makes that much of a stink about it, but that would never happen in a group that my sorc is in. And anyone who makes any kind of demand on my sorc before the quest begins has already stuck his foot in his mouth. If the OP starts a quest with some random group, and after 5 minutes he sees that blur would benefit people then fine I see no problem with him trying to get the caster to cast it.

[Daggertooth]

Blur is cheap and effective and there's a good chance that melee actually knows more about the game than you, so just give it to them.

I for one do NOT like being told what to cast and I do NOT like anyone having any expectations whatsoever about what spells I have. You say its 'cheap and effective' well if I'm on my sorc, spell points are not an issue and if I'm on my wizard you should have your own blur item if its so 'effective'. Too many melees are extremely lazy and I do not like their atttitude, especially in epics "gh plz". You should have your own GH and I don't care if 'its only 11 minutes'. If it takes more than 11 minutes for you to get to the shrine then you don't belong in Epics in the first place. I play a sorceror mostly and I buff everyone to the hilt but if I don't do it, I don't want to be asked for it. Take your Epic Antique Great Axe out of your a** and go get yourself a gird.

Funny all my melees carry 2 GH items and also have nimble trinkets because blur is useful especially if you have a decent AC.

Your 'blur plz' argument carries no weight at all because if its as useful as you say it is then there is no reason you shouldn't have it on an item. And I'll be the judge of whats 'cheap' when I am on my wizard who has limited spell points thank you, I am not here to provide buffs for you because they are 'cheap'. Your lucky your gettin haste. Other than haste you should have your own stuff.

[slimkj]

Blur is cheap and effective and there's a good chance that melee actually knows more about the game than you, so just give it to them.
Generalise much?

[Darknark]

Blur is cheap and effective and there's a good chance that melee actually knows more about the game than you, so just give it to them.
1 - LOL, because melee are automatically more knowledgeable with game mechanics than casters?

2 - If they know as much as you claim they will ask. If they don't ask or ask at a stupidly inopportune time they can get a backpack ride.

[fuzzy1guy]

My personal annoyance... Asking for blur in part 4/5 of shroud.

WHERE IT DOES NOTHING AT ALL! You really need blur for the leutenants? Come on now... They're not going to be alive long enough to bother.

My usual buff rotation anymore is stoneskin (any non fvs), gh, jump. And haste and go. Unless i know something specific is needed. And that we don't have it yet.

And i will never buff another arcane. Unless i think you're gimp and gonna need displace/whatever because you died 12 times upto that point in the quest. Or that you seem to be missing the 100% required resist energy and there is some damage of type X comming up.

[mudfud]

I know you have Blur, I can see it on you.
You know I don't have Blur, there are no lines around me.
We both know how useful Blur is.

Can we please go back to the days where I didn't have to remember to ask for Blur every single quest?
Even after I do ask for it, newer players seem too shy to make the request.

Even if you look down on poor lowly melees, do it for your fellow Blue-bars, the healers.
Very few spells beat the defensive "bang-for-your buck" of Blur.

I know you're not my buff-bot, and hate me for it if you must, but please just give everyone Blur!


No there are not lines around you! I blur you, there are still no lines around you. Oh you must be wearing an item with blur on it. Doh. I saw no lines and assumed you had no blur.

Oh your a porcupine build that loves using your guards. I just blurred you because you seem to think blur is an automatic thing. Doh! Now the guards won't go off as much.

No, I will not blur you unless you ask for it.

Along those lines. No I will not give you GH either even if you ask for it, since there are easily obtained items in the game that you can get your own GH clicky. Now, if the quest happens to be taking longer where that GH wears off, I will gladly give it to you.

And my favorite, no I will not haste you. I will haste me. And if you happen to be near me when I do haste me, you will also benefit. Just be lucky I don't break out my Time-Sensing Goggles and tell you that the 3 charges of 30 seconds is the only haste I have. If you want me to haste you give me a SP potion to cover your personal haste, or just keep using those 30 second pots. Or better yet craft a few air air greensteel for 3 charges of 1.5 minutes each.

[MrTops]

I'm playing my first arcane and I'll put a GH and Blur on any non arcane in the group.

It's not that many spell points for a stacking +4 to most everything and a 20% miss.

And I have 25% striding boots which is plenty fast enough, so I won't bother to haste myself. But I will haste if people are happy to gather for it, or they are beating on the boss.

But I guess I'm more of a team player and don't feel the need to lead the kill count as long as we complete.

[Darknark]

team player

Not the point.

Some builds are made to deal additional damage via guards, receive buffs via guards, incapacitate (ie: make helpless via earthgrab guard or similar) enemies, or (divines/arcanes mostly) recharge SP at a massive rate through a torc/dual conc-opp combo.

By auto bluring you not only waste sp, but you are actually lowering the contribution of these party members and may increase their chance of using SP pots.

As for GH, if they don't need the save boost, or the to-hit boost then its a waste.

You're a team player? Then ask. Its not that hard. Otherwise you risk damaging the group's effectiveness.

[Nagantor]

Along those lines. No I will not give you GH either even if you ask for it, since there are easily obtained items in the game that you can get your own GH clicky. Now, if the quest happens to be taking longer where that GH wears off, I will gladly give it to you.

That's the point where I hope to never end up in groups with you. Not unless some smarter arcane with GH is there as well.

Hint: there's not many items giving GH and it's not fun to grind those until you finally get one and it's not going to hold for very long. You think those few SP are better spent on some damage then improving the party - fine. I think I can find better players to fill my party slots. Expect people to have essential items but never to have any self buffs just because an item with them happens to exist at all.

[Darknark]

That's the point where I hope to never end up in groups with you. Not unless some smarter arcane with GH is there as well.

Hint: there's not many items giving GH and it's not fun to grind those until you finally get one and it's not going to hold for very long. You think those few SP are better spent on some damage then improving the party - fine. I think I can find better players to fill my party slots. Expect people to have essential items but never to have any self buffs just because an item with them happens to exist at all.

ehh... I can see his argument...Heroism pots are half as good, Gh scrolls are just as good, as well as clickies.... the +4 to hit usually doesn't matter outside of epics (unless the character has low to-hit) and the +4 saves (while nice) isn't mandatory (with exceptions.... boosting the saves of a raid-tank is preferable....).

[MrTops]

Not the point.

Some builds are made to deal additional damage via guards, receive buffs via guards, incapacitate (ie: make helpless via earthgrab guard or similar) enemies, or (divines/arcanes mostly) recharge SP at a massive rate through a torc/dual conc-opp combo.

By auto bluring you not only waste sp, but you are actually lowering the contribution of these party members and may increase their chance of using SP pots.

As for GH, if they don't need the save boost, or the to-hit boost then its a waste.

You're a team player? Then ask. Its not that hard. Otherwise you risk damaging the group's effectiveness.


The DDO Wiki suggests Storm Guard has a 2% chance to proc for an average of 600 damage, or 12 points per hit.

Mobs would have to do 12 points per hit or less for blur to reduce the outgoing damage of Storm Guard by more than it reduced incoming damage.

Do the math and blur make sense most of the time.

And I'd guess the 15 sp for blur at least will be saved by the divine in the group.

But that's besides the point.

Because I've never had anyone complain that I've given them blur and GH, that's become by default position. Until I experience otherwise it will continue to be my default position.

I imagine people who don't want blur are in the minority. They can ask not to have it.

And every other arcane can play however they want.

[mudfud]

That's the point where I hope to never end up in groups with you. Not unless some smarter arcane with GH is there as well.

Hint: there's not many items giving GH and it's not fun to grind those until you finally get one and it's not going to hold for very long. You think those few SP are better spent on some damage then improving the party - fine. I think I can find better players to fill my party slots. Expect people to have essential items but never to have any self buffs just because an item with them happens to exist at all.

And that's why I wouldn't want to be in a group with you either. You expect just because I can cast Fire resist you will not get a greater resist cloak/ring, or heck even craft a 45 resist item.
You expect because I have sp and can cast haste you will not spend your plat on haste pots.
Because it might take time to farm for a GH clicky you don't want to do it.

I personally don't want to group with anyone who doesn't take the time to be as self sufficient as possible. Those are the people I will GH, Blur, Jump, Invis, Resist. The people who actually try to get those things.
People like you who expect a blue bar to cast it because that SP doesn't cost alot is why threads like this are made about once a month or so.

[Darknark]

Mobs would have to do 12 points per hit or less for blur to reduce the outgoing damage of Storm Guard by more than it reduced incoming damage.

Because I've never had anyone complain that I've given them blur and GH, that's become by default position. Until I experience otherwise it will continue to be my default position.

I imagine people who don't want blur are in the minority. They can ask not to have it.
.


1) I am under the impression that anyone building to deal extra DPS via guards has more than one. If you have a logical response to why this isn't the case, then by all means state it.

2) If you Blur any caster (or melee with blue bar: pally, ranger) without asking you reduce their potential to regenerate SP by 20%. Its easy to ask and then buff, its a pain to have to debuff yourself to remove blur.

3) Most casters (Divine or Arcane) want to get a Torc and conc-opps, therefore it is logical to assume that they have attempted to get them and *might* have them (and likely succeeded with getting the Greensteel)

4) Un-wanted blur reduces the effective SP regeneration for ALL casters. - that includes those divines you claim to be helping.

5)You claim to be a team player. So play with the team and ask first.


Yet another example:

A person is using a Docent of Defiance, and gets it to proc, they now have 20 DR/- for 20seconds.
You blur them.
Now due to "bad luck" combined with your blur further reducing the odds that their DoD procs enough in the 20 seconds to keep the buff up 100%, they fail to reliably re-trigger the Dod.
They sporadically gain and lose 20DR/-.
When they don't have the buff they are now taking far more damage than they would be without blur, and because of the lower chance that the buff is sustainable the incoming damage is likely higher than it would be if the person wasn't blurred.


-----------------

But these have been my arguments all along.... not really much to add because this is it. No point in me continuing to restate it.

[transtemporal]

These days there are many items that have a blur effect on them. I don't cast it unless asked. Same goes for GH. I don't cast either of these in very caster heavy quests like eda.

[MrTops]

I think we've been a bit distracted from the original post.

So, the pro's and con's of blur vs. guard effects not withstanding, I'll cast blur on everyone in my party unless I'm asked not to.

People don't expect to have to ask divines for healing. I think this is an analogous situation.

But I'm sure you all carry on as before :)

[Moltier]

You forgot one thing. You are the minority in the game. Just like me, or most of the forum users. For 99% of the playerbase, blur is usefull.


1) I am under the impression that anyone building to deal extra DPS via guards has more than one. If you have a logical response to why this isn't the case, then by all means state it.

- If your build have dps guards on your melee, that means you are geared, and play at high, or epic level. Also that means each hit will be serious to you. A few hit, and you need a heal, which cost mana. Each time the divine heals you, a blur could save some time and mana. Each time you take a hit, your guards deal pathetic damage. You may can reach 25-30 avarage damage/hit... awesome. So after 10 hits, you loose 500-800hp, and deal a whole 300damage? Yeah, that 4-8k hp mob will scream.

2) If you Blur any caster (or melee with blue bar: pally, ranger) without asking you reduce their potential to regenerate SP by 20%. Its easy to ask and then buff, its a pain to have to debuff yourself to remove blur.

- Casting a blur on another caster is foolish. On a pala or ranger? It will save more mana for the divine then regen for the ranger or pala. And the divines sp is way more important.

3) Most casters (Divine or Arcane) want to get a Torc and conc-opps, therefore it is logical to assume that they have attempted to get them and *might* have them (and likely succeeded with getting the Greensteel)

- Nope, most of the casters dont have Torc. They may have a Conc-opp. Most of the divines arent super geared 600+hp tanks. Again. We are the minority.
Still, i wouldnt cast blur on an another caster. They can decide if they want it and cast it by themself.

4) Un-wanted blur reduces the effective SP regeneration for ALL casters. - that includes those divines you claim to be helping.

5)You claim to be a team player. So play with the team and ask first.


Yet another example:

A person is using a Docent of Defiance, and gets it to proc, they now have 20 DR/- for 20seconds.
You blur them.
Now due to "bad luck" combined with your blur further reducing the odds that their DoD procs enough in the 20 seconds to keep the buff up 100%, they fail to reliably re-trigger the Dod.
They sporadically gain and lose 20DR/-.
When they don't have the buff they are now taking far more damage than they would be without blur, and because of the lower chance that the buff is sustainable the incoming damage is likely higher than it would be if the person wasn't blurred.


-----------------

But these have been my arguments all along.... not really much to add because this is it. No point in me continuing to restate it.

[SHOCK_and_AWE]

4) Un-wanted blur reduces the effective SP regeneration for ALL casters. - that includes those divines you claim to be helping.

5)You claim to be a team player. So play with the team and ask first.

Hm...I've never considered divines using the Torc or Con Opp for sp purposes. Perhaps I should forgo blurring any primary casters without request, not just arcanes.

[mudfud]

You forgot one thing. You are the minority in the game. Just like me, or most of the forum users. For 99% of the playerbase, blur is usefull.

Nobody is saying it's not useful. From the majority of the posts I've taken the time to read in this thread 99% of people know how useful it is, they just want 1. People to ask if want it. 2. People to not just hand it out if they don't ask for it.


The 99% of the playerbase you are subscribing to should speak up more if they want blur, need blur, desire blur, instead of the 1% that knows when/if they need it and do know how to ask if they do.

[Moltier]

Nobody is saying it's not useful. From the majority of the posts I've taken the time to read in this thread 99% of people know how useful it is, they just want 1. People to ask if want it. 2. People to not just hand it out if they don't ask for it.


The 99% of the playerbase you are subscribing to should speak up more if they want blur, need blur, desire blur, instead of the 1% that knows when/if they need it and do know how to ask if they do.

So every melee in a raid should ask it? Party chat would be like this:
Melee1: blur pls
M2: me too
M3: Blur and GH
M1: i need GH too, Clicky still evade me...
M4: I need sonic
M1: Thanks!
M2: can i have a blur? still missing it
etc...

Or just pass out all those without ask in 10-15sec, then raste and go.
Even if the melees have guards, those are not as usefull as a simple blur.
They get blur from me even if they dont ask, coz i want to save the divines SP.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

So every melee in a raid should ask it? Party chat would be like this:
Melee1: blur pls
M2: me too
M3: Blur and GH
M1: i need GH too, Clicky still evade me...
M4: I need sonic
M1: Thanks!
M2: can i have a blur? still missing it
etc...

Or just pass out all those without ask in 10-15sec, then raste and go.
Even if the melees have guards, those are not as usefull as a simple blur.
They get blur from me even if they dont ask, coz i want to save the divines SP.

Or you could just ignore it and go, since most raid bosses have TS.
And it's going to be quick(er) and easy without it anyways.

[Limey]

I am addicted to blur that's why I made my melees perma blur GS/HP items. However, when I play my wizard/sorc I appreciate not everyone has so I give it out when asked. If this has too much impact on your SPs then I would suggest a rethink on your build or SP management.

[Cendaer]

If I gave eleven people all of the buffs I cast on myself (Extended!) I wouldn't have any SP left to kill or control monsters with.

Seriously.


You get to have fun using your weapons in every fight. Yes, every single fight!

I don't think it is too much to ask to be able to use my SP in every fight too.

Mass buffs are cheap enough, but individual buffs are expensive.
And no one stops at just wanting a single buff either. It's a Blur, a GH, two or three resists....... adds up people. (and takes time to cast too)

That stings, but it's the truth. +1 to you.

I play the Wizard, I carry ALL the buffs I can. Even Blur.

If you need a buff or two, please ask, I might just have it prepped. Hopefully, I've remembered to swap in the situational spells for the quest as well.

If you ask for a litany of buffs, you'll still be getting ONE buff, perhaps two, and they won't be cast until I see how you play your character, and determine what you need.

If you think I'm ignoring your initial request, rest assured I'm not...requesting a litany of buffs will usually astound me to the point of being speechless.

A request like that will have me keeping my eye on you for the entire quest. I might have to rescue you at any moment, and I take that sort of thing very seriously.

If I have to rescue you, I'm gonna need spell points to do it.

If you ask for nothing, I will cast exactly that on you for buffs.

[mobrien316]

People don't expect to have to ask divines for healing. I think this is an analogous situation.

But I'm sure you all carry on as before :)

I think it is more analogous to say that mass buffs are generally expected, but not individual buffs. My casters will throw mass buffs on the party at the beginning of a quest and after shrining, and then I'll ask if anyone wants anything specific. For some quests, there are other "automatic" buffs I will give out (such as fire resist for part 5 of the Shroud) but it is still helpful if people ask for it. Some people have their own resists and don't need mine, so I appreciate if people ask rather than making me waste my time and SP throwing them buffs they don't need.

If a player can't be bothered to type "blur plz" then why should it be incumbent upon me to go down the line and Blur eleven other people who may or may not want it?

[Nagantor]

I personally don't want to group with anyone who doesn't take the time to be as self sufficient as possible. Those are the people I will GH, Blur, Jump, Invis, Resist. The people who actually try to get those things.

There's the difference. I prefer to play a group game. I will have Heroism items/pots for example, but those are mainly for going solo. And don't put words into my mouth, if people start to ask for all potential buffs that's a way different matter then asking for GH which is one of the best. My main goal in a party is to work towards group success. Playing lots solo is a necessary crutch in this game, sadly. If I wanted to play self sufficient solo characters, I'd play a solo game not a MMORPG. What you are saying is like: once you reached the level for Xorian Cypher first time, you're expected to farm that quest until you have GH clickie or live without that buff. My casters SP are mine to use and I use them for personal success, not group success.

Who will not profit from GH? Uber toons which have some way to get it or no need at all - well, playing with those it doesn't matter much where you spent a few of your SP. They are not required anyway, uber toons don't need your help very much. Very weak toons where +4 to hit/saves don't get them to an usable number - well, they'll be a burden to your party until you teach the players.

BTW most quests have so many shrines that at least arcanes usually arrive with lots of SP left. Divines much less often. Anything to pull load from Divine shoulders is good, buffs that reduce incoming damage are among that. Just because YOU played for years and have every rare uber item doesn't put it into the inventory for 99% of the player base just yet. I wonder what's the percentage of characters having access to stuff like greensteel in lvl 11-19. Probably quite low and on a first life you'll usually reach 20 before you have the ingredients together, so you'll even play at lvl 20 without the essential items... outrageous.

[Grond]

There's the difference. I prefer to play a group game. I will have Heroism items/pots for example, but those are mainly for going solo. And don't put words into my mouth, if people start to ask for all potential buffs that's a way different matter then asking for GH which is one of the best. My main goal in a party is to work towards group success. Playing lots solo is a necessary crutch in this game, sadly. If I wanted to play self sufficient solo characters, I'd play a solo game not a MMORPG. What you are saying is like: once you reached the level for Xorian Cypher first time, you're expected to farm that quest until you have GH clickie or live without that buff. My casters SP are mine to use and I use them for personal success, not group success.

Who will not profit from GH? Uber toons which have some way to get it or no need at all - well, playing with those it doesn't matter much where you spent a few of your SP. They are not required anyway, uber toons don't need your help very much. Very weak toons where +4 to hit/saves don't get them to an usable number - well, they'll be a burden to your party until you teach the players.

BTW most quests have so many shrines that at least arcanes usually arrive with lots of SP left. Divines much less often. Anything to pull load from Divine shoulders is good, buffs that reduce incoming damage are among that. Just because YOU played for years and have every rare uber item doesn't put it into the inventory for 99% of the player base just yet. I wonder what's the percentage of characters having access to stuff like greensteel in lvl 11-19. Probably quite low and on a first life you'll usually reach 20 before you have the ingredients together, so you'll even play at lvl 20 without the essential items... outrageous.

You're speaking like buffing is the only thing a caster does to contribute to group success. Let the caster judge how much of their mana they're willing to spend on buffs and still feel like they can do what they need to do in the quest. Let them play their character. If you don't like the way they play, don't group with them.


As to shrines, again, let the arcane be the judge of it. If I'm on an arcane and we come to a shrine that's 'use or lose' I'll dump my remaining mana on every buff under the sun. If I think I may need to come back to that shrine later, I won't. This is especially true on difficulty levels where shrines don't reset.

If your character is such that you *must* have greater heroisim to succeed in a quest, then do whatver you need to do to ensure that you have it. Run Xorian into the ground, carry heroism pots for at least a partial bonus, whatever. Does it make things easier for you if you have your own personal buff bot? Of course it does. But just realize that all those other people playing with you in an MMORPG aren't there to facilitate *your* playstyle... they're there to play their own characters. Let them.

[Darknark]

You forgot one thing. You are the minority in the game. Just like me, or most of the forum users. For 99% of the playerbase, blur is usefull.

You're saying only 1% of casters have a Conc-opp item and torc? ..... Or that casters are 1% of the playerbase? or... what? If "everyone with a blue bar" wants one, isn't it quite reasonable to assume that a fair number of them actually have them?

Also, you haven't ever seen the healing amp pally/ranger that torcs sp back for self healing? never? .....

Everything to be said has been said already.
Nothing I say with change the mind of auto-blurers, and nothing they say will make me think that being 20% less efficient at something is sensible, much less preferable.

-------------------------------------



I personally don't want to group with anyone who doesn't take the time to be as self sufficient as possible.

:D Yea, when the lfm's say stuff like "BYOH, Zerg" its just sad how many people join and do squat to keep themselves alive.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

My Wizard buffs herself with extended Jump, Blur, any resists I think I need, which is quite often two or three...and sometimes more, GH, Prot Energy, Stoneskin.....Displacement. (but I don't keep Displacement up at all times)

All of which would be quite useful on any party member, no matter what class....in just about any dungeon.


How many SP would I have left if I buffed every party member with those?


Would it benefit the party?

Yes! Yes it would.

But what about if I cast CC spells in every fight? Would that benefit the part?

Heck yeah it would! And I think it will be of more benefit to the party then any buffs I could possibly give.

Plus it sure is a heck of a lot more fun for me if I actually get to cast spells in every fight...instead of standing back and holding your cape while you kill things...

And I cannot go buy SP pots with a few plat. (you don't even buy cure pots! Why do you expect me to buy SP pots?!)

I know darn well how powerful my buffs are. That's why I cast them on myself!
I also know darn well how powerful my other spells are. And how easy a dungeon can be with a good caster acively casting during fights.

I've also seen how quickly a party can wipe when a caster runs our of SP!


Now....I do give buffs to whoever asks. I hate it, but I give them anyway. Cause its just easier than argue with people.
Plus I made and equiped my Wizard as best I could to be able to contribute with zero SP. (in fact, I think it's kinda fun and gives me a chance to show off, when people see a Wizard who can actually be effective with no SP.)

But there has to be some balance.
Cause its not just as Blur... its a whole slew of buffs, that many people ask for.

This is one reason I prefer self-sufficient players.
and why I rag on Barbarians all the time on the forums.

In my experience, the best players do not ask for buffs. They bring their own.
Yes....it takes time to grind some items for some kinds of buffs.
So yes, you can be a good player and not be self-sufficient. (yet!)

It's also why you see so many great players who choose WF caster types. Cause they want to be both powerful and self-sufficient.
A similar group of top players still like exploiter type Rgr builds.


Anyway. If you really want something ask (nicely) for it.
But also try to understand that many casters don't like handing out too many buffs...
(not every caster thinks that way though.....a large number happily hand out tons of buffs...)

[mudfud]

So every melee in a raid should ask it? Party chat would be like this:
Melee1: blur pls
M2: me too
M3: Blur and GH
M1: i need GH too, Clicky still evade me...
M4: I need sonic
M1: Thanks!
M2: can i have a blur? still missing it
etc...

Or just pass out all those without ask in 10-15sec, then raste and go.
Even if the melees have guards, those are not as usefull as a simple blur.
They get blur from me even if they dont ask, coz i want to save the divines SP.

So basically you don't want someone to ask because you would have to read or listen to people asking. Obviously you have never played with a porcupine build where all that person is wearing are guards. That simple blur will hurt more then help. When you have my casters meleeing because I'm out of SP getting my torc and concordant op item to proc and start getting loads of sp back, that simple blur will hurt.

And for that M4 person asking for sonic, I would let them know that if they knew they needed sonic why didn't they get the house j/p buff or why they not wearing there resist item. :p




There's the difference. I prefer to play a group game. I will have Heroism items/pots for example, but those are mainly for going solo. And don't put words into my mouth, if people start to ask for all potential buffs that's a way different matter then asking for GH which is one of the best. My main goal in a party is to work towards group success. Playing lots solo is a necessary crutch in this game, sadly. If I wanted to play self sufficient solo characters, I'd play a solo game not a MMORPG. What you are saying is like: once you reached the level for Xorian Cypher first time, you're expected to farm that quest until you have GH clickie or live without that buff. My casters SP are mine to use and I use them for personal success, not group success.

Who will not profit from GH? Uber toons which have some way to get it or no need at all - well, playing with those it doesn't matter much where you spent a few of your SP. They are not required anyway, uber toons don't need your help very much. Very weak toons where +4 to hit/saves don't get them to an usable number - well, they'll be a burden to your party until you teach the players.

BTW most quests have so many shrines that at least arcanes usually arrive with lots of SP left. Divines much less often. Anything to pull load from Divine shoulders is good, buffs that reduce incoming damage are among that. Just because YOU played for years and have every rare uber item doesn't put it into the inventory for 99% of the player base just yet. I wonder what's the percentage of characters having access to stuff like greensteel in lvl 11-19. Probably quite low and on a first life you'll usually reach 20 before you have the ingredients together, so you'll even play at lvl 20 without the essential items... outrageous.

Being self sufficient isn't only about solo play. It's about team play as well. If you are desperately in need of a GH to hit stuff, then yes, you need to run xorian into the ground, farm stuff to get the plat to buy one. Otherwise the +2 from a heroism pot should be sufficient.
I will never ask for a resist, gh, blur, heal, haste. I will never expect another character to use what they have on there character for my benefit. Now if something is given to me that is completely different. But when fighting fire elems and I have no resist I will have a fire prot pot myself and my resist cloak. And if I don't have a resist cloak I will get house j/p favor to get the buff. I won't look down on a caster for not resisting or casting prot. on me because it is there SP. I would be less of a contribution if I didn't come prepared to every quest instead of waiting to rely on a blue bar.

Playing for 5+ years has nothing to do with anything or getting stuff. What it has to do with is how much of a real contribution do you want to be to the group.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Oh, yeah, fine, blur, and displacement and high AC and donowhat!!!
And what should we hjealers do, eh? Should I delete my cleric? :mad:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/wimpow/Humor/jobs.jpg

Well, I do take great pride at putting Clerics out of business. :cool:

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Jump is just plain fun to cast on non-arcanes. Usually at least one person in the party/raid immediately starts jumping around when given this buff :).

I tend to Jump once, right after receiving Jump.

I've also been known to respond to a whole lot of buffs with a /flex. :p

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I mean really, why do melee's even care whether they have buffs, it's not their resources being consumed. :rolleyes:



lol...... /sigh

[Nagantor]

You're speaking like buffing is the only thing a caster does to contribute to group success. Let the caster judge how much of their mana they're willing to spend on buffs and still feel like they can do what they need to do in the quest. Let them play their character. If you don't like the way they play, don't group with them.

That's exactly what I like to do, but as I like to level up character more then play at 20, I'm meeting lots of different people. Hard to find the good ones, those are the ones with whom you do more then one quest. I dislike those not giving out any SP to the group and I neither like people who play just a heal or buffbot and walk behind otherwise.

And yes, I can (and do) carry items for the most important protections and buffs. But especially for stuff like resist energy, it's also very likely that I carry items giving something usefull I can't get from a few SP as well. Also I'd not consider to play quests where I miss half the time for not having GH. But hitting on a 2 even while moving and so on is very hard to achieve for difficult quests. So getting those extra hits (and crit confirmations) on melees will most likely contribute a whole lot more damage then any other spell out of those SP.

To make the fun complete: for my own toons, I usually don't require any buffs. Doing elite streak with random people most of the time recently and if there are deaths in the group, it's very rare that I'm among them. I have lvl 20 characters, some twink items and enough crafting skills to create some specific stuff. But if you go into PUG groups at different levels instead of just raiding / epics with very experienced people, you'll notice lots of people have much worse equipment. You'll also see casters not carrying any buff spells or just using them on themselves and the group struggling. I've also heard from lots of people that they do high level content only in guild or with friends because of unfriendly attitudes encountered often. Can confirm the latter, I'm just more thick skinned and rather laugh at some elitist types.
For myself, I developed a dislike at people requiring anyone to be as self sufficient as possible so they can do their own thing. To me it is still a game and the time spent in quests shall be fun, so yeah, I miss some items for not grinding quests. Doesn't matter, on another character or in some other life I'll get them. No hurry, only very few quests (raids) really require top items once you developed some playskill. No matter, can live with not doing some epics or elite raids - yet.

[Cauthey]

I tend to Jump once, right after receiving Jump.

It is an extremely high DC Will save to NOT jump after receiving a Jump buff. :D

[Corwinsky]

[QUOTE=Darknark;4144609]You're saying only 1% of casters have a Conc-opp item and torc? .....
Also, you haven't ever seen the healing amp pally/ranger that torcs sp back for self healing? never? .....
Everything to be said has been said already.
Nothing I say with change the mind of auto-blurers, and nothing they say will make me think that being 20% less efficient at something is sensible, much less preferable.[QUOTE]

No player knows how many % of casters have a Conc-opp and/or torc.

However what we see at the start of a quest is when the arcanes cast blur and GH on themselves but not on anybody else even if asked.
And as someone else mentioned in 90% of the quests we run with them they arrive at the next shrine with a quarter of their SPs left at least (and not from having shown restraint in their spell casting)
It doesn't seem a waste for them to cast blur or GH on themselves although they shouldn't need them if they play properly.

With the same logic healers maybe should just learn single dw, use prot evil wands etc and just buff themselves as well and if someone dies just carry its stone to the next shrine instead of raising him so as not to waste their SPs and have more for offense (group buffs cost more than single ones).
Oh but wait I'm actually playing more and more with divines that carry only single dw and don't cast prot evil anymore.

[Ugumagre]

It is an extremely high DC Will save to NOT jump after receiving a Jump buff. :D

OMG, it is true!!! I will check with my static party this weekend...

[Moltier]

You're saying only 1% of casters have a Conc-opp item and torc? .....


Read my whole reply, and you will have the answer...




So basically you don't want someone to ask because you would have to read or listen to people asking. Obviously you have never played with a porcupine build where all that person is wearing are guards. That simple blur will hurt more then help. When you have my casters meleeing because I'm out of SP getting my torc and concordant op item to proc and start getting loads of sp back, that simple blur will hurt.

And for that M4 person asking for sonic, I would let them know that if they knew they needed sonic why didn't they get the house j/p buff or why they not wearing there resist item. :p


A melee charater whos gear all about guards is near useless. If you think i cast blur on another caster, you didnt read my post. Im talking about melees.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

On my bard... I extend-blur everyone who isn't arcane, play a few songs, then extend-haste. Then I switch out of my SP gear (currently at +130 SP) into my real gear (which will give me 85% fort, +10 HP, the occasional stoneskin, and... something else I crafted onto my shield which I forget now).

I've only had ONE person ask me not to blur them in the future.

On my ranger... I barkskin *everyone* who isn't a ranger (and even another ranger, if he's only got 7 or fewer levels of ranger... or isn't barking himself). If I know what kind of elemental damage is most prevalent in the quest, I hit everyone with resistance to that element.

I've never had anybody ask me not to bark them in the future.

On my bard, I'm happy when I get barked. On my ranger, who wears a Mabar L8 cloak with 10% blur (Hey, he was only L7 at the time, I didn't want to play Mabar enough to get him higher levels than 8 because I hated Mabar), I'm happy when I get blurred.

On my barb and monk, who weren't around for Mabar last year and in any case are only high enough to wear the L8/12 cloak with the 10% blur, and not the L16 one with the full 20%... I'm very happy when I get blurred and barked. And that's even on my monk who lives in earth stance and has +3 natural armor, 'cause a ranger near my level will have barkskin +4/5.

On my wizard... well, everyone gets blurred, 'cause he's only L4 so how many people are gonna have anything remotely resembling anything useful to either mimic blur or prefer not to be blurred at that level? I haven't run out of SP yet, but admittedly I'm not a very good wizard and tend to use my eternal wands more than spells in most situations.

I figure, if you have it, use it. I figure a bard who has it should use it and save the wizard the SP, because chances are unless you're throwing around a lot of CC spells or playing the party healer, the wizard's SP is better spent on nuking.

[Airgeadlam]

So, to resume, once again is lack of communication.

If you want/need/consider you need blur, and you're not getting it.. Ask if someone can give it to you.

If you don't want/need/got blur without warning and didn't want it... Tell them to avoid passing it to you.

Not hard!

P.S: I believe as well, that casting all masses while on a divine, no matter what quest/difficulty, requirements... Is a waste of sp. Why casting Mass DW on a quest with mobs who have no instakill/level drain spells? (And I saw this more than once). Sure, it is not biggie... one mass spell. But all masses as an habit... quite a hit on your blue bar.

[Vanquishedfo]

There's the difference. I prefer to play a group game. I will have Heroism items/pots for example, but those are mainly for going solo. And don't put words into my mouth, if people start to ask for all potential buffs that's a way different matter then asking for GH which is one of the best. My main goal in a party is to work towards group success. Playing lots solo is a necessary crutch in this game, sadly. If I wanted to play self sufficient solo characters, I'd play a solo game not a MMORPG. What you are saying is like: once you reached the level for Xorian Cypher first time, you're expected to farm that quest until you have GH clickie or live without that buff. My casters SP are mine to use and I use them for personal success, not group success.

Who will not profit from GH? Uber toons which have some way to get it or no need at all - well, playing with those it doesn't matter much where you spent a few of your SP. They are not required anyway, uber toons don't need your help very much. Very weak toons where +4 to hit/saves don't get them to an usable number - well, they'll be a burden to your party until you teach the players.

BTW most quests have so many shrines that at least arcanes usually arrive with lots of SP left. Divines much less often. Anything to pull load from Divine shoulders is good, buffs that reduce incoming damage are among that. Just because YOU played for years and have every rare uber item doesn't put it into the inventory for 99% of the player base just yet. I wonder what's the percentage of characters having access to stuff like greensteel in lvl 11-19. Probably quite low and on a first life you'll usually reach 20 before you have the ingredients together, so you'll even play at lvl 20 without the essential items... outrageous.

See whats odd about the way you describe building a character is also very ANTI D&D. In the typical PnP group you are very much taught to be self sufficient as good DMs will frequently split up the group especially in dungeons to heighten the sense of being lost and vulnerable. Teleport traps are a personal fave among most veteran DMs as they single use send PCs to random locales and soon you got a half dozen players all over the place feeling isolated.

This is done so commonly in campaigns as to be a frequent topic of a chapter on traps in most DMG sections on trap design. And if your character is some weekend warrior who isnt well versed in the arts of dungeoneering and survival then kiss your characters but goodbye.

[MrTops]

It is an extremely high DC Will save to NOT jump after receiving a Jump buff. :D

'tis too true.

Also a way of saying thank you, I got it :)

[MrTops]

I think it is more analogous to say that mass buffs are generally expected, but not individual buffs. My casters will throw mass buffs on the party at the beginning of a quest and after shrining, and then I'll ask if anyone wants anything specific. For some quests, there are other "automatic" buffs I will give out (such as fire resist for part 5 of the Shroud) but it is still helpful if people ask for it. Some people have their own resists and don't need mine, so I appreciate if people ask rather than making me waste my time and SP throwing them buffs they don't need.

If a player can't be bothered to type "blur plz" then why should it be incumbent upon me to go down the line and Blur eleven other people who may or may not want it?

I guess I never meant to say that giving buffs was mandatory.

I mean, healers in difficult content will make decisions about who to heal or raise and with what priority.

Likewise with buffs. I was merely pointing out that I tended to auto buff to a degree, since I think the sp is well spent, but I leave it up to everyone to make their own choices.

And I would never buff someone who said, "hey dudes, I'm a porcupine build, don't blur me".

Though I've yet to encounter that.

[mudfud]

I mean, healers in difficult content will make decisions about who to heal or raise and with what priority.


LoL I won't be bad by getting off topic again, since it's somewhat off topic already. I'm a firm believer when on my cleric of raising dead instead of healing. Though, I do use my aura and burst for healing, so just make sure if you need healing you get near me. :p
Otherwise my sp on cleric is used for damaging spells. :)

[Docherty]

Agreed OP!

Even on my lvl 16 archmage who has only 1K SP due to excessive SLAs, every party member gets a blur - no debate, along with GH it is a casting priority. I will only NOT cast if party member states they have blurry item on already. Cast it, or give your spot to someone who will.

My apologies for going on-topic :)

[SemiraLynn]

There are very few times in life when making assumptions is a good thing and this isn't one of them. If someone needs Blur all they need to do is ask. If the caster won't give it then maybe they're just a jerk. It happens. But it's silly to be expected to ask ahead of time to not get something. Asking to not get something. That's backwards.

[Docherty]

There are very few times in life when making assumptions is a good thing and this isn't one of them. If someone needs Blur all they need to do is ask. If the caster won't give it then maybe they're just a jerk. It happens. But it's silly to be expected to ask ahead of time to not get something. Asking to not get something. That's backwards.

It's not charity, do it for your own sake - get the quest done faster/easier.

[Dzabe1]

Almost all arcane spells can be cast by clickies or by using using pots, but 30sec haste or 1:35 is no match for 3 min haste or 5 min rage. Same goes for blur/displacement, DW, FoM, Resists and all the other 'classic' spells.

When on bard I always do the GH/Blur/Songs/Rage/Displace/Haste GO! pack. People get stupefied when they get songs and buffs because they are accustomed of getting none of that.

I think people should at least get a blur and haste. My 2cp :)

[zwiebelring]

Clicky using is annoying but most important is the CL of buffs. Clickies have min. lvl. and are dispelled easily. Self sufficiency is nice in ermergency situations but taking for granted a Barbarian or any melee has to have 5 Shroud Displacement clickies is everything but not viable for a team based game.

So, just adapt to the party. You can load buffs, so do it if needed. Otherwise play single player games. I wish there was a class with ONLY damage spells. No buff at all.

Let's see for how long those prevailed outside of guild groups. When stating I don't do this and don't do that... why joining a pug or group at all? Nobody needs you there. Buffing alone won't complete a high lvl. quest. Neither does damage only. Casters can do both. So do both if it is needed.

[Kathul]

Any class with SP gets to choose what spells they use. Blur is a great spell, at end game, should not be necessary due to the ways other types of blur can be aquired especially at end game.

Claiming that an arcane is bad because they would rather use Sp for CC or insta kills is dumb. PLay an arcane and see how easily you become just another buff bot, like healers are expected to be heal bots.

Or, take some time to grab a dusk heart, or any other piece of blur type gear.

Just sucks the game has come down to , haste/rage/GH/blur/displace, and see ya never till we need CC caster!!

[mudfud]

So, just adapt to the party. You can load buffs, so do it if needed. Otherwise play single player games. I wish there was a class with ONLY damage spells. No buff at all.


There is. It's called my sorc. He has 0 buffing spells on his list, and never will.


It's not charity, do it for your own sake - get the quest done faster/easier.

If you want the quest done easier and faster then "stop asking and buffing at the start". People who are self sufficient can start the quest right away and buff themselves on the run. Seems easier and faster to me. It's the people who can't do that or won't do that when the issues arise.

[gradeyshane]

Guys, if you want blur you should ask. There are too many people running around with invisible blur to just go casting it willy nilly. If you ask you get, if you dont you can wait till I pass displacment on a big fight.

I do agree with buffing in general, but the blur buff is one that just needs to be asked for since we cant tell if you are wearing a cloak or what.

[zwiebelring]

There is. It's called my sorc. He has 0 buffing spells on his list, and never will.
No, not even the option given, so Sorc. is out.

Everything is fine if everybody is fine with it. If not, accept it and move along. But I guess a groupleader with 5 members will not leave just because you joined. And thx for the troll. I collect them. This one was missing ;).

[Vellrad]

There is. It's called my sorc. He has 0 buffing spells on his list, and never will.


Seriously not even expeditious retreat or haste at least?
How can you live with so low running speed!?

[zwiebelring]

How can you live with so low running speed!?
Permanent asking for haste? XD

[Rodasch]

There is. It's called my sorc. He has 0 buffing spells on his list, and never will.



If you want the quest done easier and faster then "stop asking and buffing at the start". People who are self sufficient can start the quest right away and buff themselves on the run. Seems easier and faster to me. It's the people who can't do that or won't do that when the issues arise.

So you don't even buff yourself?

What is your spell list like for levels 1, 2, 3, and 4?

It seems kinda ironic to me that you're preaching self sufficiency at the same time as claiming you don't even have buff spells to cast on yourself...you must carry a whole lot of unnecessary clickies.

[Lord_Thanatos]

So you don't even buff yourself?

What is your spell list like for levels 1, 2, 3, and 4?

It seems kinda ironic to me that you're preaching self sufficiency at the same time as claiming you don't even have buff spells to cast on yourself...you must carry a whole lot of unnecessary clickies.

It is insanely depressing to see a sorc having to ask for basic buffs. Yay for a sorc having to ask another sorc for resists.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It is insanely depressing to see a sorc having to ask for basic buffs. Yay for a sorc having to ask another sorc for resists.

I've seen this. :eek:

[Vyrn]

Almost all arcane spells can be cast by clickies or by using using pots, but 30sec haste or 1:35 is no match for 3 min haste or 5 min rage. Same goes for blur/displacement, DW, FoM, Resists and all the other 'classic' spells.

When on bard I always do the GH/Blur/Songs/Rage/Displace/Haste GO! pack. People get stupefied when they get songs and buffs because they are accustomed of getting none of that.

I think people should at least get a blur and haste. My 2cp :)

That, or theyre annoyed you just cost them ~150 SP due to no torc/con opp. Thanks, I really need less SP, that always helps.

[bokaboka]

That, or theyre annoyed you just cost them ~150 SP due to no torc/con opp. Thanks, I really need less SP, that always helps.

In the three years I've been playing, I've heard someone say they wanted to be hit....once. ONCE

Now maybe I'm a huge noob with sh** gear, who's doing it all wrong, and needs to go back to WoW, etc etc etc

But then I guess everyone I've ever run with was a huge noob with sh** gear, who's doing it wrong and has to go back to WoW etc etc etc

(except that one guy)