Can someone build characters excluding Epic Gear?

[Flintsen]

For me I enjoy the path from 1-20 more than I do being 20. I play this game to get XP not to be super uber and the best player in the game but every single build out there has Epic gear in them. Epic gear is bad for you. ha

[Thrudh]

You don't have to follow the build exactly...

Just use normal gear instead of epic gear.

Why is this hard?

[krackythehoodedone]

Like Thrudh said just dont use it.

What i dont understand is that a good chunk of the Epic items available.

Like your Mabar or Cove Event,House P & D Epics are a lot easier to get than many of the items you are going to use instead

I see loads of toons on their 60th runs for Madstone/Tharnes/Lorriks/Scales etc etc.

You may as well have something purple for the time you do spend at cap without spending any real time grinding for them.

But each to their own.

[Vissarion]

Most good builds will function perfectly well with non-epic gear, especially with all the decent BTA items available from newer quests.

Don't have Tharnes yet? Or Bloodstone? Run Reign of Madness and find the Lenses of Opportunity.

No Epic Claw? Run the House C stuff and get the new Fabricator set.

No ESOS? Craft some Cannith weapons or make a Greensteel weapon.

There is other very nice stuff, as well. Fleshshaper Docent/Brigandine until you get a good set of Dragontouched. Shard of Xoriat, Scepter of Mad Trickery, Staff of the Fleshshaper for caster types. Sustaining Symbiont as a decent general purpose item.

There are plenty of good options.

[Sweet_Bud]

Only thing that really matters is a good weapon - the rest of the epic gear is fluff after that. Yes, sure, you can have the DC 42 spells that nearly always hit, but for the rest of us we muddle along. Just stick with the best you can find for your build in pre-20 gear.

[Vanquishedfo]

honestly if you like most of us in game dont care about the so called waste of time end game **** that is epic, then you dont even need to be reading ad following other folks builds. those are meta gamed min max trash builds that exist only for niche purposes in raids one and all. a few exceptions do exist here and there, look for ones that talk about solo leveling etc. the rule is if it solos well it probably doesnt do so well in epic raid content as its not specialized enough in any one area but in the sense that in the real world they could survive a zombie apocalypse while the rest die the second the cleric gets overwhelmed.

[dkyle]

Yeah, very few builds actually use Epic gear for anything other than an incremental improvement over using non-Epic gear. A build that's posted to use an ESoS will still work with a LitII. Just with somewhat less DPS.

There are a few builds that rely on Epic weapons to use unusual to-hit stats, but other than those builds, don't let the recommended gear list make you think that the build requires that gear.

Same with tomes. Just because you see +3 or +4 tomes doesn't mean you need them. Just make sure they aren't being used to meet feat prereqs (ITWF/GTWF and Combat Expertise, for example), and you'll be fine with +2s.

[Vanquishedfo]

Only thing that really matters is a good weapon - the rest of the epic gear is fluff after that. Yes, sure, you can have the DC 42 spells that nearly always hit, but for the rest of us we muddle along. Just stick with the best you can find for your build in pre-20 gear.

if you use a weapon this is truer then the sky is blue. A addy of smiting blade for golems means more to any weapon wielder then virtually any epic item.

[Sarisa]

A large portion of epic gear is NOT for power, but for niche use or consolidating slots.

Many crafted items, a lot of raid loot, ToD rings, some event items, and especially Greensteel are stronger than almost any true epic item.

One example I can think of would be an optimal Pale Master.
Often times, they list Epic Torc, Epic Bracers of Demon Consort, and Epic Lion-Headed Belt Buckle as recommended items. The Mabar robe/docent is also commonly listed, but it's an event item and not a real epic. You can get by with the level 16 version of that item without any trouble.

The non-epic Torc is still among the most powerful items in the game. All making it epic does is give you a bit higher spell pen and gives you a colourless slot (for +6 stat or +1 exceptional).

The epic Bracers and non-epic Bracers, the only differences are 2 slots and +15 Intimidate. The slots are useful, but not necessary. The non-epic Bracers are still among the best Pale Master items in the game.

The Lion Headed Belt buckle is primarily used for the shaken guard effect (-2 to saves of mobs that hit you). You can use the non-epic version of it on a Pale Master effectively at cap, it just may be a bit harder to fit in your +6 CON item. The epic version is mostly for getting the guard you want along with your CON (and the STR is a nice boost), and a slot. This is arguably the biggest jump in power of all the recommended epics compared to the non-epic version, the others are just set consolidators or give you more options.

On the melee side, for example...

The Epic Antique Greataxe is commonly listed for THF builds. This is because it's not too difficult to get (Epic Snitch and Epic Big Top are both easier to complete than elite Amrath), and because it's effective.

You can get by with crafting DR breakers, Holy Silver of Lawful Outsider Bane and Holy Cold Iron of Chaotic Outsider Bane for under 20's and Holy Burst <metal> of Greater <type> Outsider Bane for level 20's.

You could also spend the 24 large ingredients on a Mineral II Greensteel weapon.

The reason the eAG is often listed is because it's USUALLY less of a grind than getting the 24 larges, and is effective at what it does. It's not the best DPS, that goes to the top end crafted weapons, but it's still close and saves inventory space.

Overall, aside from a few extreme items (eSoS, eChaosBlades, eMarilithChain), epic items are a luxury and not necessary unless you really want to optimize your equipment.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I stop reading any build (or build advice) the moment I see a reference to rare loot or temporary buffs.

You might be able to TR several times by the time you grind rare loot.

And anyone of any build can use the same temporary buffs, so mentioning them is meaningless IMO.


Actually I think all builds should be listed showing "starter" items only IMO. Since that is far more useful info for a new player on his first toon.

[Vissarion]

I stop reading any build (or build advice) the moment I see a reference to rare loot or temporary buffs.

You might be able to TR several times by the time you grind rare loot.

And anyone of any build can use the same temporary buffs, so mentioning them is meaningless IMO.


Actually I think all builds should be listed showing "starter" items only IMO. Since that is far more useful info for a new player on his first toon.

Depends on your definition of 'rare loot' and 'temporary buffs'.

If they're assuming an epic Abishai set and House D/Store pots/Titan's clickies, then yes, you are correct.

And mentioning buffs isn't meaningless, since it helps establish thresholds, especially for things like AC and attack bonus. Sure, everyone can be buffed with GH, but it's nice to know if that GH can move you from hitting on a 5 to only missing on a 1.

[dkyle]

I stop reading any build (or build advice) the moment I see a reference to rare loot or temporary buffs.

You must not read through very many builds than. Listing optimal gear is pretty standard practice. Just accept that for what it is. It makes it easier to compare builds to each other. You've been playing this game more than long enough to be able to understand how a build scales down with weaker gear, I think.


And anyone of any build can use the same temporary buffs, so mentioning them is meaningless IMO.

Either everyone should not use them, or everyone should use them, in writing build descriptions. Either way is fine in terms of comparing builds. The standard is "using them", and that's unlikely to change. There's not much point making a fuss about it, as long as the temporary buffs are clearly marked..


Actually I think all builds should be listed showing "starter" items only IMO. Since that is far more useful info for a new player on his first toon.

What's "starter"? That's going to vary, and everyone will have radically different standards for that, making it hard to compare builds. "Optimal" is a more objective measure. Between a Holy of Vertigo +2, Shock of PG, Holy of PG, Holy Burst of PH, LitII, and ESoS, which is the correct "starter" weapon? I think we could debate that endlessly. But which one is "optimal" in most cases is fairly obvious.

And in most cases, builds aren't there for "new players". Builds for them exist, and are well marked as such. New player builds are usually simple, and don't change much over time, so there's usually not much to discuss. Most builds posted for serious discussion are about looking for the optimums in the system, for the veteran players. Optimal gear is a perfectly sensible thing to have in them.

[maddmatt70]

yes you can OP, but I would really think the best/only way to have a very powerful character and to not run epics is to become a high level crafter. If you are not running epics then max out your crafting ability and hopefully you are in a large guild so you can use lg guild slots. Make alot of gear with large slots and weapons that surpass dr if you want to run raids at end game some, but not epics.

[MysteryNotes]

A large portion of epic gear is NOT for power, but for niche use or consolidating slots.

Many crafted items, a lot of raid loot, ToD rings, some event items, and especially Greensteel are stronger than almost any true epic item.

One example I can think of would be an optimal Pale Master.
Often times, they list Epic Torc, Epic Bracers of Demon Consort, and Epic Lion-Headed Belt Buckle as recommended items. The Mabar robe/docent is also commonly listed, but it's an event item and not a real epic. You can get by with the level 16 version of that item without any trouble.

The non-epic Torc is still among the most powerful items in the game. All making it epic does is give you a bit higher spell pen and gives you a colourless slot (for +6 stat or +1 exceptional).

The epic Bracers and non-epic Bracers, the only differences are 2 slots and +15 Intimidate. The slots are useful, but not necessary. The non-epic Bracers are still among the best Pale Master items in the game.

The Lion Headed Belt buckle is primarily used for the shaken guard effect (-2 to saves of mobs that hit you). You can use the non-epic version of it on a Pale Master effectively at cap, it just may be a bit harder to fit in your +6 CON item. The epic version is mostly for getting the guard you want along with your CON (and the STR is a nice boost), and a slot. This is arguably the biggest jump in power of all the recommended epics compared to the non-epic version, the others are just set consolidators or give you more options.

On the melee side, for example...

The Epic Antique Greataxe is commonly listed for THF builds. This is because it's not too difficult to get (Epic Snitch and Epic Big Top are both easier to complete than elite Amrath), and because it's effective.

You can get by with crafting DR breakers, Holy Silver of Lawful Outsider Bane and Holy Cold Iron of Chaotic Outsider Bane for under 20's and Holy Burst <metal> of Greater <type> Outsider Bane for level 20's.

You could also spend the 24 large ingredients on a Mineral II Greensteel weapon.

The reason the eAG is often listed is because it's USUALLY less of a grind than getting the 24 larges, and is effective at what it does. It's not the best DPS, that goes to the top end crafted weapons, but it's still close and saves inventory space.

Overall, aside from a few extreme items (eSoS, eChaosBlades, eMarilithChain), epic items are a luxury and not necessary unless you really want to optimize your equipment.

Well said, +1

[Talon_Moonshadow]

A large portion of epic gear is NOT for power, but for niche use or consolidating slots.



It took me awhile ro realise this. People were going crazy about Epic items, but when I read the description I felt like "what is so great about that?"

Then I looked closer at the colored/colorless slots and started to see how many item slots I could save with Epic items.

I can have +6 items in every stat I care about, and my GFL item, my Heavy Fort...etc.

AND I can have something else too!

There are so many items that I consider standard equipment can be incorporated into slots on Epic gear.

[ristretto93]

I stop reading any build (or build advice) the moment I see a reference to rare loot or temporary buffs.

You might be able to TR several times by the time you grind rare loot.

And anyone of any build can use the same temporary buffs, so mentioning them is meaningless IMO.


Actually I think all builds should be listed showing "starter" items only IMO. Since that is far more useful info for a new player on his first toon.

I very much agree with this...not surprising as I often find myself agreeing with Mr. Talon_Moonshadow about a lot of things.

It seems to me that a really good build has strengths that will shine regardless of gear. As an example, there is this build: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=264744&highlight=barbarian+protest+build

...which I believe was designed originally with 34 or 36 pt build in mind, but having tried a simple 32 pt human version of this build with no PL feats and substandard gear, you can see in a very basic, raw way how the strengths of the classes work together and how survivable the build can be - obviously fully geared with the right race and feats this combo of classes takes off and fully blossoms. Still it is incredibly fun for me to play as a character to run shrouds with...eventually the gear as well as TRs will come and until then it is still very competitive DPS wise with the huge benefit of being hard to kill.

Again, Im just saying that the right combos of classes and levels will show strengths with even a 28 point build with crappy gear. Being a half way decent player probably helps too :)

[Jendrak]

When it comes to epic gear I look at it this way:

Epic gear is something to shoot for once you have a solid build and good gear. In no case is it absolutly required but its nice to have.