ToD Shadow Tanking and why it is superior to kiting in every way

[Khellendros13]

After seeing way too many wipes in pt2 of ToD, I am now getting frustrated and trying to tell everyone why and how tanking the shadows is superior.

A few things to note:

* Cold damage from the Shadows aura does not stack. It is liek a firewall, the highest single tick does damage only.

* Moving in or out of the auras, you will take damage from them all. This means a damage spike if you try to exit the aura with 4+ shadows around you, or lots of them hit you at once.

* Anyone with UMD for Fire Shield scrolls or a Bluefire Necklace can tank them with 400+hp

* A 800hp toon could even tank them without fire shield, just someone cycling Heal/Recon and Protection from Elements.
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Now, why tank them instead of kiting?

First, it is much more reliable. 1 healer or bard healing the shadow tank that has fire shield is very easy. Protection from elements every tick or 2 of damage makes it a breeze.

Second, of it is a caster or ranged toon tanking, that can still add DPS to Nythiros (sp?).

Third, it is not limited by class type so anyone can do it. No need to screen casters for one that can kite.
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What gear do you need?

All you need to tank, at a minimum, is Fire Shield. Scrolls are ok, and you can refresh it when the shadows vanish and respawn. If the fight will last more than 90 seconds after you refresh, then you will need the Bluefire necklace from Litany of the Dead. Unbound so you can buy it just like the Cloak of Ice, but it is exclusive.

From here we can stack cold absorption. The best is a triple water GS weapon offering 10/15/20% cold absorption.
It is a single shard, 3 LDS recipe. I would recommend to any arcane that will run ToD regularly. Tier2 is also decent for a self healing arcane.

You can also put 15% cold absorption on any junk ToD ring. Not a bad option as you will most likely have 20-50 more runs before you get the rings you need/want.

If you are a self healing, self casting fire shield and protection from elements arcane, I would just make the 15% absorption ring.

In order of effectiveness:

* Fire shield (50%) + Triple Water GS weapon (45%) + Protection from Elements
or
* Fire Shield (50%) + ToD Ring Cold Absorb (15%) + Protection from Elements
or
* Fire Shield (50%) + Protection from Elements
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How to actually tank?

I will talk about gaining Shadow agro first, as this is where a lot of kiting wipes happen in the first 10 seconds.

Firewall was very popular before the spell pass. it still is, but shouldn't be.

Any spell that offers a reflex save for half, and evasion meaning 0 damage should be avoided.
The Shadows have evasion, not a huge reflex save, but enough that they do Evade a firewall or Blade Barrier and waltz right up to the party and kill people.

The best spells are large AoE that offer no save. My favourite for an Arcane in Incendiary cloud, it casts fast, has a large AoE and no save for the damage.

Solid fog is good too, and the solid fog clickies are great as they cast faster now too.

Blade barrier is still ok as they have to Evade it twice, but Obscuring Mist or SF clicky for a tanking Divine are good.

So now you have agro, you stand still at the bottom of the stairs.

If self healing and prot elementing, cycle your heals/recon/neg energy burst with protection from elements. This will negate 1-1.5 ticks of damage with just Fire Shield, more as you add absorption gear.

If getting healed by someone else (Bard or 2nd/3rd Divine) you will need to trust them. They should be doing the same as above, and skilled Divines will be able to add DoTs to Nythiros too.

If self healing but no quickened protection from Elements (Bard, Pally, Ranger etc) then any divine can just toss a Protection from Elements every 6-10 seconds.

A melee with SF pots and Bluefire necklace could tank too. I know Ayspam tanks with SF pots on his fleshy Sorc.

Just remember to keep up any fog/cloud spells for agro, and communicate when needed, and STAND STILL. Vertical movement is ok, but not horizontal ie jumping is ok.
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That is it really, it is quite simple but I broke it down so it is easy to understand the how and why.

If requested, I can possibly post videos tanking on WF Wizard, WF Bard and WF Barb.

I hope this helps, and turns kiters into tanks :)

Edit: "I don't have the gear" is not an excuse, I have stated many times that only fireshield and protection from elements are needed. UMD or cast fireshield. yea you might need gear like bluefire necklace if you want to tank on hard where it takes longer. Absorb gear past this just gives you more time to DoT or drink your beer between heals.

[NaturalHazard]

well ive never seen anyone fail tanking the shadows, but ive seen plenty fail kiting them. Problem is few go tanking route or claim they dont have the gear to do it?

[Havok.cry]

I saw 1 person tank them once, but couldn't get an explanation as to how they did it. I usually kite, but thats cause I thought it was a melee attack hitting me. Knowing whats actually happening makes me think tanking would be SOO much easier. Thanks for this.

[azmodeus1]

its hardly superior, first time i kited shadows was on a 350hp drow pale master i forgot to go in form, i just dropped a fw and ran around the room using pillars to block los, got hit once near the end only before i realised i wasn't in form and my aura wasn't healing me.

don't get me wrong, its a very nice little post about shadow tanking, i just don't see why you'd bother as you list a bunch of gear alot which you have to craft, and honestly if i lag abit while kiting... i've never had the shadows catch me so it doesn't matter. if you lag on your cycle healing/prot it could mean your death. if you can dps while tanking cus you have a healer, then that person isn't dps'ing so that advantage is moot, unless you have a gimpy bard that can't do anything as your shadow tank healer.

i mean both ways work, one can be done with a haste the other needs some gear. ive seen alot of fail shadow tanking, since most who try havn't done it, wipe the raid, then just kite in the future.

[Qzipoun]

I saw 1 person tank them once, but couldn't get an explanation as to how they did it. I usually kite, but thats cause I thought it was a melee attack hitting me. Knowing whats actually happening makes me think tanking would be SOO much easier. Thanks for this.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I actually think the shadows don't have any melee attacks at all.

OP is correct but I still ask people to kite in my parties because if someone dies kiting, the shadows have to make it all the way to the party before damage is done (plenty of time for the backup to kick in) whereas if you have someone tanking they are usually at the stairs and if they screw up you have very little recovery time. With that said, if I put someone on kiting duty and they tank them, great, just don't wipe the party :) Guess it's just a matter of trust, if everyone was willing to tank and knew what they were doing it would be fine, but until then I see kiting happening for a while. A critical mass kind of deal

[protokon]

its hardly superior, first time i kited shadows was on a 350hp drow pale master i forgot to go in form, i just dropped a fw and ran around the room using pillars to block los, got hit once near the end only before i realised i wasn't in form and my aura wasn't healing me.

don't get me wrong, its a very nice little post about shadow tanking, i just don't see why you'd bother as you list a bunch of gear alot which you have to craft, and honestly if i lag abit while kiting... i've never had the shadows catch me so it doesn't matter. if you lag on your cycle healing/prot it could mean your death. if you can dps while tanking cus you have a healer, then that person isn't dps'ing so that advantage is moot, unless you have a gimpy bard that can't do anything as your shadow tank healer.

i mean both ways work, one can be done with a haste the other needs some gear. ive seen alot of fail shadow tanking, since most who try havn't done it, wipe the raid, then just kite in the future.

Tanking is superior because it can be done with nothing but a fire shield clicky/fire shield and someone watching your back - and is much less risky. the gear listed (absorption items) is not hard to get, considering most melees have to build 1 or 2 mineral II's to make the cut into the raid, and casters dont need much greensteel to begin with. Even a tier 2 item is nice, but not necessary. The other day I tanked them on my paladin because our favored soul wiped the first run by dieing while kiting, so I threw up a fire shield with UMD, solid fog clicky, and healed myself with lay on hands / cure serious pots / had a 2nd healer watching me.

[Khellendros13]

well ive never seen anyone fail tanking the shadows, but ive seen plenty fail kiting them. Problem is few go tanking route or claim they dont have the gear to do it?

That is exactly why I posted this.

You can tank them with just fire Shield. I have done it, and I listed that as an option. You just need more heals and someone to cast protection from Elements.

A Pale Master or WF Arcane can manage all 3 of those things easily.


its hardly superior, first time i kited shadows was on a 350hp drow pale master i forgot to go in form, i just dropped a fw and ran around the room using pillars to block los, got hit once near the end only before i realised i wasn't in form and my aura wasn't healing me.

don't get me wrong, its a very nice little post about shadow tanking, i just don't see why you'd bother as you list a bunch of gear alot which you have to craft, and honestly if i lag abit while kiting... i've never had the shadows catch me so it doesn't matter. if you lag on your cycle healing/prot it could mean your death. if you can dps while tanking cus you have a healer, then that person isn't dps'ing so that advantage is moot, unless you have a gimpy bard that can't do anything as your shadow tank healer.

i mean both ways work, one can be done with a haste the other needs some gear. ive seen alot of fail shadow tanking, since most who try havn't done it, wipe the raid, then just kite in the future.

Never had them catch you? Lag never kills you kiting? You must be the best kiter out there.

Can you post a guide on flawless kiting then please?

Nythiros is so easy to heal on, a single Divine can solo heal on Hard. Only 1 person will have agro, and these days it is usually a Defender with ac and/or shield DR. Or a Barbarian with 800hp. Heal and some mass heals. Elite ToD you would take 3 healers...so the 3rd can easily DP and heal the shadow tank.

As I said, I have tanked them on my Bard, with about 560hp using a Yugo pot, and just a Fire Shield scroll. I had some outside healing and the occasional Protection From Elements, and used a SF clicky. This was after we wiped with failed kiting.

You can kite perfectly, but the majority of khyber cannot. If you want to kite and do so without failing, sure, go ahead I don't care. This guide is for those that have trouble kiting, or are starting to run ToD and avoid joining or are declined because they have never kited.

[Khellendros13]

Tanking is superior because it can be done with nothing but a fire shield clicky/fire shield and someone watching your back - and is much less risky. the gear listed (absorption items) is not hard to get, considering most melees have to build 1 or 2 mineral II's to make the cut into the raid, and casters dont need much greensteel to begin with. Even a tier 2 item is nice, but not necessary. The other day I tanked them on my paladin because our favored soul wiped the first run by dieing while kiting, so I threw up a fire shield with UMD, solid fog clicky, and healed myself with lay on hands / cure serious pots / had a 2nd healer watching me.

Exactly. UMD Fire Shield is only an issue if the DPS sucks or it is Elite and that fight takes much longer without room to refresh a scroll...though you could time it so the cold damage is absorbed while you use a scroll.

Also, it is Cold aura damage only, no physical. Shield blocking does not help.

However a Shield and Shield Mastery would reduce the aura damage by another 20%.

[sirgog]

Can I suggest people that might not want to invest 3 LDS in a 10/15/20 cold absorb item do at least invest 3 MDS (medium devil scales) in a 10/15 cold absorb item.

23.5% absorption goes a long way. Not quite as far as the full 38.8% absorption of a tier 3 one, but it's a real boost. And easier to acquire than 9 trophies for newer arcanes.

[sweez]

Tanking is the easy button, and as such should be used unless there's a ginormously huge reason not to. As was already said, a tanking arcane/divine can keep dots stacked on Nythirios adding DPS that would be lost if he kited, and if someone tells me they can keep a perfectly timed double-dot stack on Nythirios while kiting, I'm kindly gonna ask for a vid. :)

Plus, while tanking you can literally grab some snacks and keep yourself busy, especially if the group dps is meh. Absorb weapons are cheap, they're literally worth an hour of scroll farming per.

Btw, you don't have to stand completely still, you can freely jump up and down to get a better angle to polar/necro ray Nythirios without any risk. As for spells I mostly just use cloudkill/ice storm + pm aura, only time I had one shadow loose was when there was another PM standing a bit too close

And no, kiting isn't hard or anything with a bit of practice, there's just no real point to it.

[Jendrak]

Having seen a wipe while someone was attempting to tank I feel you missed something very important.

Occasionally, the shadows will surround you and make it impossible to place any aggro grabbing spell on the staris since your line of sight is blocked. While this doesnt happen often it does happen. I know it can be worked around but am not sure how.

[KillEveryone]

Occasionally, the shadows will surround you and make it impossible to place any aggro grabbing spell on the staris since your line of sight is blocked. While this doesnt happen often it does happen. I know it can be worked around but am not sure how.

I adjust my sight by viewing things from first person instead of over the shoulder.

I've never had a problem with placing a firewall or cloudkill after trying that.

[Khellendros13]

Having seen a wipe while someone was attempting to tank I feel you missed something very important.

Occasionally, the shadows will surround you and make it impossible to place any aggro grabbing spell on the staris since your line of sight is blocked. While this doesnt happen often it does happen. I know it can be worked around but am not sure how.

If you are on the base of the stairs, which the shadows must navigate past first to get on the platform, you just cast/use clicky without a target, or target a shadow.

[lugoman]

Funny, people complained about tanks just standing there spamming intim and now arcanes should just stand there spamming prot cold? Running is funner.

[Khellendros13]

Funny, people complained about tanks just standing there spamming intim and now arcanes should just stand there spamming prot cold? Running is funner.

Nope arcanes or divines should be adding DPS via DoT's/AoE/Polar Ray too once comfortable tanking. You really cannot compare the two as this is 1 particular fight.

[Alternative]

Having kited the shadows in a 2 man run for over 10 minutes while keeping dots on the boss also, I will never waste a single funk on some cold absorb item. Tanking might work for some, but it shouldn't be the only acceptable way to handle tod pt2.

[MysteryNotes]

Having tried tanking for the first time a few days ago on my wizzy, i have to agree with the OP that it certainly is easier.

Not going to run around and kite shadows when i can just sit there and spam one spell, heh.

And; as a pale master i don't even need to heal myself since the shadows deal so little damage with a 45% cold absorb item(Cheap to make too!) that all i need to do is sit there and cast protection from elements on myself.

[Astraghal]

I always wondered if this could work, but it's so late in the raid that noone ever wants to experiment. Anything that requires investment (greensteel) is usually not pursued. I wouldn't mind trying this on a melee with Epic Frozen Plate, Epic Helm of the Red Dragon, a tier2 cold absorb item and Silver Flame Pots. The only problem is aggro management, if a Shadow got past and was hit with AoE or glancing blow spam, there would be no way to get it back.

Anyone ever tested to see if the 20% cold absorbtion on the Epic Frozen Plate is the same as the greensteel property, or will they stack?

[Aragan]

You can also get 20% cold absorption as the random enchantment on a dream edge from mindsunder.

[IanYang]

Thank you. This info is just useful.

[Jakian]

After seeing way too many wipes in pt2 of ToD, I am now getting frustrated and trying to tell everyone why and how tanking the shadows is superior.

Hey Fel, thanks much for the tip! +1 rep for you :)

Well, I've been running TOD lots with my melee/divine and only recently gotten my caster flagged and booted for it. Shadow-kiting is the reason why I avoided TOD with my caster. Too horribly stressful as 95% of failed kiting from my experience resulted in a wipe (backup kiter doesn't usually quite work out too since it is difficult for the backup to pull aggro when the shadows are flying all over the place).

I've seen you tank with your bard and was like "wow". You did it again in yesterday's run and I was certainly impressed convinced it is a better way than kiting.

This post is really insightful, and will make casters less afraid to run PUG TODs via Shadow-tanking. Cheers!

[SirTeo]

I have kited with both my monks once with my barbarian + many times with my fvs.
When update 11 striked it's somehow harder to keep shadows aggro, had 2 fogs
going clearly surrounding the stairs, even a little bit distance to the stair but no
way to get arround it with out getting hit by it. One shadow got up, I'd say it
is risky to kite/tank with just fog clickes, sometimes it just dosent cut it

Shadows are indeed much more tricky now days, when I kite/tank on my fvs
i'll have to use both bladebarriers+ fog clickes and I remember on elite in the
end begun to start his way up the stairs, now luckly I manage to hit him with
a cometfall but c'mon really :P?

[MrWizard]

shoot me with a magic arrow if this sounds dumb, but...

why kite or tank them at all? Why not just ignore them and beat on the bad guy.
On big intim and the shadows stay around the boss, everyone beating the boss.
Clerics and casters can back out of fray and cast prot from elements mass, heals, and be done with it.

don't fight him on the pedastal, fight him about 20 feet infront of the stairs so all the ice mobs can easily group up on you.

like you said, just one tic right?

mass heals, mass prots, low hp peeps like cleric and casters just move out of the way once aggro is set. Copy same tactic when they all come out.

one more guy beating the boss, quicker kill. better yet, if their hitpoints aren't all the high, beat them down first..:)

[Khellendros13]

Having kited the shadows in a 2 man run for over 10 minutes while keeping dots on the boss also, I will never waste a single funk on some cold absorb item. Tanking might work for some, but it shouldn't be the only acceptable way to handle tod pt2.

That's cool, some can kite very well through skill, less lag etc. If you want to kite for 10 mins that's fine with me :)

This is aimed more at those having issues with the kiting to be honest.

I have already proved in game, and described here, how to tank with no gear other than Fire Shield scrolls or clicky/spell from the tank.


Hey Fel, thanks much for the tip! +1 rep for you :)

Well, I've been running TOD lots with my melee/divine and only recently gotten my caster flagged and booted for it. Shadow-kiting is the reason why I avoided TOD with my caster. Too horribly stressful as 95% of failed kiting from my experience resulted in a wipe (backup kiter doesn't usually quite work out too since it is difficult for the backup to pull aggro when the shadows are flying all over the place).

I've seen you tank with your bard and was like "wow". You did it again in yesterday's run and I was certainly impressed convinced it is a better way than kiting.

This post is really insightful, and will make casters less afraid to run PUG TODs via Shadow-tanking. Cheers!

Thanks

That was my goal, because I know many casters are scared of kiting or getting denied spots in ToD because they can't or have no experience with it.




shoot me with a magic arrow if this sounds dumb, but...

why kite or tank them at all? Why not just ignore them and beat on the bad guy.
On big intim and the shadows stay around the boss, everyone beating the boss.
Clerics and casters can back out of fray and cast prot from elements mass, heals, and be done with it.

don't fight him on the pedastal, fight him about 20 feet infront of the stairs so all the ice mobs can easily group up on you.

like you said, just one tic right?

mass heals, mass prots, low hp peeps like cleric and casters just move out of the way once aggro is set. Copy same tactic when they all come out.

one more guy beating the boss, quicker kill. better yet, if their hitpoints aren't all the high, beat them down first..:)

Logical, but we tried that once and the lag was literally game stopping for everyone. The engine simply can't handle all those calculations and spells on 12 players.

[mrphlegm]

Great advice, look forward to trying this out on my pale master when i get flagged.

Think those frostbite potions from risia will come in handy (20% cold absorb).

[Kmnh]

tanking is easier, kiting is more fun.

I usually tank it on my caster and kite it on my bard.

[Hordo]

Personally, I prefer the tanking method, like you do Felgor, but I'm sure you'll agree that the majority on Khyber are automatically thinking kiter instead of tank. It will take a good bit for the automatic response to change. Ultimately, I do foresee that tanking will become the norm, but there is a whole lot of teaching necessary before then.

[mystafyi]

Logical, but we tried that once and the lag was literally game stopping for everyone. The engine simply can't handle all those calculations and spells on 12 players.

Agreed. ddo game engine and/or servers cannot handle that. Sadly this is becoming a re-occuring theme with ddo.

[DragonMageT]

Nice info.

Just a few things:

Don't waste ingreds on cold absorption item, it's not needed.
I have never used one or even come close to needing one and I have been tanking pt2 for a long time.
If the person tanking is that worried, just ask the 2nd/3rd healer to help.
Fire Shield is the only thing needed.

Targeting is a real pain now since U11.
So when the first set of shadows disappear, make sure to lay down a fresh set of AoE spells.
The targeting issue seems to clear up during that small window.

This information has been out there for a very long time, search the forums.

[elraido]

I am just going to say, "more than one way to skin a cat." Some people like it one way, others like it the other way. If it works, then it works...who cares what way you get there.

[Jakian]

I am just going to say, "more than one way to skin a cat." Some people like it one way, others like it the other way. If it works, then it works...who cares what way you get there.

I would care if I was in the PUG cos I wouldn't want to waste time reforming / re-running it and would much rather get it done quickly and reliably.

Ran a norm PUG TOD yesterday with relatively competent players with good DPS. An experienced and skilled caster stepped up and kited the shadows guess what... yes he died 4 mins into the kite. Fortunately we had 3 clerics in the group to heal through and the DPS was good.

I can't agree more with Hordo too that it'll take a while for mindsets to change from kiting to tanking.

[Kabaon]

Both are fine ways to run part 2. It depends on comfort level and gear. Even if I had the gear I still wouldn't feel comfortable tanking, so I'd rather kite. And I've only goofed up maybe 3-4 times out of 20 runs on my caster (beforeI tr'ed again, not flagged anymore).

I find kiting to be safer because if you happen to get hit and die across the room, it may give the time needed to kill the boss instead of tanking really close and dying and wiping the party.

[Battlehawke]

Thank you! This is a very helpful and instructional post. My guild does TOD about every other week. We are probably 50/50 kiting and 100 success when tanking in part two. I think its great because a healer can get to the tanker and the party and lay on dots to the boss! It seems a lot less chaotic that way too!

[arjiwan]

Greetings all,

First, a very informative post +1. Thanks for that.

Second is, I have few questions.

Would be a 500hp cleric with quicken pull it off?

Solid fog clicky + Blade barrier = enough to pull aggro?

Triper Cold Absorb GS + Protection from Cold + Resist from Cold (No Blue fire necklace) = survive on normal?

Cheers!

[Khellendros13]

Greetings all,

First, a very informative post +1. Thanks for that.

Second is, I have few questions.

Would be a 500hp cleric with quicken pull it off?

Solid fog clicky + Blade barrier = enough to pull aggro?

Triper Cold Absorb GS + Protection from Cold + Resist from Cold (No Blue fire necklace) = survive on normal?

Cheers!

Yea that would be ok, you just need to spam protection from cold and heal a bit more. As a cleric I would probably just load obscuring mist rather than worrying about a SF clicky.

[arjiwan]

Yea that would be ok, you just need to spam protection from cold and heal a bit more. As a cleric I would probably just load obscuring mist rather than worrying about a SF clicky.

What?! Clerics have obscuring mist? Wow, TIL.

I played my cleric for a long time and did not know I can have a fart machine.

Thanks for the info.

[Khellendros13]

What?! Clerics have obscuring mist? Wow, TIL.

I played my cleric for a long time and did not know I can have a fart machine.

Thanks for the info.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Obscuring_Mist

Hmm it says fvs1 but I thought Cleric's get it too? Can you confirm?

[Khellendros13]

Thank you! This is a very helpful and instructional post. My guild does TOD about every other week. We are probably 50/50 kiting and 100 success when tanking in part two. I think its great because a healer can get to the tanker and the party and lay on dots to the boss! It seems a lot less chaotic that way too!

Yea, if you have a sorc or wiz kiting and not DoTing, that is more of a DPS loss than having a bard or 3rd Divine or any melee tank.

The tanking arcane also puts out DPS that they otherwise would not. Obviously on Elite they probably wont unless willing to drink pots.

[SirValentine]

Would be a 500hp cleric with quicken pull it off?

Solid fog clicky + Blade barrier = enough to pull aggro?

Triper Cold Absorb GS + Protection from Cold + Resist from Cold (No Blue fire necklace) = survive on normal?


Works for me.

Be sure to refresh your aggro-grabbers when your hope strikes hard.

With triple-absorb and a UMDed Fireshield, I was taking 60ish cold a tick, which was easy to handle. Without Fireshield, it'll be double that for you, I guess. Still quite doable, I'd think.

[Solmage]

I prefer kiting because otherwise it's too boring. Kiting + dotting boss = not boring. You have to at least make sure you have a bit of leeway before you slow down to dot.(*) Lag can also make it rather exciting, I remember when we had DPS lag I had to blind kite a few times - the creatures wouldn't get drawn, but you could still hear the flapping of the winds, and use sound to guess where they were/were coming from. Was awesome :)

PS: Acid fog works rather well, long duration, damage tick, stops some random FvS aura from stealing aggro.

(*) non-wingy Arcane only, people with wings are boring to kite with too, might as well tank. :p

(**) Also, keep in mind most people don't know the cold damage doesn't stack since they do get hit with 4 ticks each time the 4 shadows approach them.

[Silverleafeon]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Obscuring_Mist

Hmm it says fvs1 but I thought Cleric's get it too? Can you confirm?

Yes clerics can load Obscuring Mist.

+1 rep ~ thank you for the information

[Jakian]

Just so you know, to proof that tanking is indeed quite easily doable... the OP actually tanked the shadows in a Normal run with his Barb using just a 90 sec fireshield from his epic red dragon helm clickie, cold resist and 5 SF pots. Nicely done Brelgor!

[Airgeadlam]

I was in a ToD two days ago with my FvS. A guildie went with her PM, and in part 2 she was told to tank, not kite. She was reluctant, as she thought it would be a suicide, but both leader and one of the guys explained the deal. She agreed to try, though still fearing a wipe. I was the 3rd divine in party, so as a life insurance I was asked to keep an eye on here. I used 1 heal scroll and 1 prot from elements. That's it.

So.. First time, not all the gear listed, and smooth. Worth a try.

Also, +1 for the post. Helpful.

[Vellrad]

This is so true.
Now even my guildies get used to say 'Zandos tank shadows' instead of 'Zandos kite shadows'.
Still, its a little strange that puggers we take along are shocked that there was no running, and wonder which CC works on shadows.

[abrownbear9108]

not sure if its been mentioned or not as i only skimmed through after the first page, but did anyone think of using a T3 Cold savant as the tank? they get that permanent 15cold resist afterall and i'm pretty sure that it would stack with that 10/15/20 GS cold item. i know it stacks with resist energy: cold as i was always running around withn 45 cold res on mine before i TR'd. surely it wouldnt be that hard to get a cold sav into tank mode :D

[Cormath]

I have been working out the tanking for a while on my sorc. I even swapped from Air to Water for the extra cold res (get up to 60 now). I "can" tank and I have tanked.

But I still get some fails that require the backup to step in. This happens both tanking and kiting. Seems to be in unlucky high damage rolls that land between protection of elements. However, I have still been swapping gear and stuff around to try for a no-fail way to pull it off.

Bottom-line is that I have been on the fence about making a cold absorption GS item but have decided on a my first life build that I may need to get one for insurance. (That and I HATE having to make a 2nd healer babysit me)

My previous post on ToD tanking with some math was at:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4045489#post4045489

[gloopygloop]

I have been working out the tanking for a while on my sorc. I even swapped from Air to Water for the extra cold res (get up to 60 now). I "can" tank and I have tanked.

But I still get some fails that require the backup to step in. This happens both tanking and kiting. Seems to be in unlucky high damage rolls that land between protection of elements. However, I have still been swapping gear and stuff around to try for a no-fail way to pull it off.

Bottom-line is that I have been on the fence about making a cold absorption GS item but have decided on a my first life build that I may need to get one for insurance. (That and I HATE having to make a 2nd healer babysit me)

My previous post on ToD tanking with some math was at:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4045489#post4045489

A Fire Shield: Hot item is also coming in U12 if I saw it correctly. Since Fire Shield: Cold from Bracers of the Glacier stacks with Fire Sheild: Cold spell, I expect that you might be able to get Fire Shield: Hot from the U12 item to stack with Fire Shield: Hot from the spell. That won't last very long, but it's still one more 50% slice off the damage that you take from the Shadows.

[Khellendros13]

I have been working out the tanking for a while on my sorc. I even swapped from Air to Water for the extra cold res (get up to 60 now). I "can" tank and I have tanked.

But I still get some fails that require the backup to step in. This happens both tanking and kiting. Seems to be in unlucky high damage rolls that land between protection of elements. However, I have still been swapping gear and stuff around to try for a no-fail way to pull it off.

Bottom-line is that I have been on the fence about making a cold absorption GS item but have decided on a my first life build that I may need to get one for insurance. (That and I HATE having to make a 2nd healer babysit me)

My previous post on ToD tanking with some math was at:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4045489#post4045489

Is your Sorc WF or Fleshy? How many HP? Quicken?

Zirek, a guildie, tanked last night on Hard. WF Air Sorc about 425hp. He did receive a few heals I think, but otherwise had 500sp left when done. He used solid fog on the stairs and cloudkill on Nythiros.

If you are worried about dying, having someone spam heal/prot elements every 6 seconds while you keep up fire shield is pretty much 100% safe.

[bigolbear]

* Moving in or out of the auras, you will take damage from them all. This means a damage spike if you try to exit the aura with 4+ shadows around you, or lots of them hit you at once.

this little gem is great info. I'll be moving to tanking from now on. thankyou.

[Cormath]

I knew about the cold aura being like a moving blade barrier in that you take damage moving in/out of it. Did not know that it was also like firewall in that you only take the highest tick of damage.. Thanks, I will have to test that.

------------

Was not expecting a char or gear review, look up Cormath on My.DDO.com if interested.

WF 20 Sorc

Unbuffed have 447 HP

Currently still testing so have 2nd toughness feat and 4th Racial toughness off. I am a Water Savant and testing maxing lighting for the Crystal Cove with Chain Lighting as my AoE since skelies were immune to ice storm. Also speaking of gear, I currently have a crafted ring on for +2 Enchantment to test Symbol of Persuasion DC 33 to see if I like the spell.

With GS bracer of Water (normally were my Fire one) I have a 60 cold resist.
-- 45 from Bracer + 15 from Water Savant III = 60 Cold Resist
-- Did a full LR from Air Savant to Water Savant to get the extra 15 Cold Resist and swap all my spells
Fire Shield %50 cold damage
Protection of Elements
and self heal Reconstruct at 300

Swapping gear around to make room for epic and unlocks. Next up is unlocking Titan Grip for some strength to carry loot and crafting bags, but mainly the Reconstruction bonuses.

[Khellendros13]

I knew about the cold aura being like a moving blade barrier in that you take damage moving in/out of it. Did not know that it was also like firewall in that you only take the highest tick of damage.. Thanks, I will have to test that.

------------

Was not expecting a char or gear review, look up Cormath on My.DDO.com if interested.

WF 20 Sorc

Unbuffed have 447 HP

Currently still testing so have 2nd toughness feat and 4th Racial toughness off. I am a Water Savant and testing maxing lighting for the Crystal Cove with Chain Lighting as my AoE since skelies were immune to ice storm. Also speaking of gear, I currently have a crafted ring on for +2 Enchantment to test Symbol of Persuasion DC 33 to see if I like the spell.

With GS bracer of Water (normally were my Fire one) I have a 60 cold resist.
-- 45 from Bracer + 15 from Water Savant III = 60 Cold Resist
-- Did a full LR from Air Savant to Water Savant to get the extra 15 Cold Resist and swap all my spells
Fire Shield %50 cold damage
Protection of Elements
and self heal Reconstruct at 300

Swapping gear around to make room for epic and unlocks. Next up is unlocking Titan Grip for some strength to carry loot and crafting bags, but mainly the Reconstruction bonuses.

Unless you have a large lag spike, you should not have any problem tanking at all. Just keep up prot elements before and after each reconstruct if you are worried.

[xveganrox]

I've never seen anyone tank the shadows before, although I always sort of felt that the kiting was weird and there ought to be a better way. This makes me curious - definitely going to look into this.. My 527hp rogue can UMD Fire Shields all day long, maybe I'll try to talk a cleric into helping me out and give this a shot :)

[MRMechMan]

You can also get 20% cold absorption as the random enchantment on a dream edge from mindsunder.

With so many random attributes on the dream edges, can't really farm for that. I was lucky enough to pull one with cold absorb, but it's just a few larges saved.

But, it's nice having it on one 10/15/20 item...someone said that shield mastery helped block some of the damage (it's cold damage though, right?), and even if it doesn't I'm sure there is something that is beneficial for the offhand.

As for tanking vs kiting...both are viable, I have seen both used very successfully. Tanking with good hp, self healing, fireshield, prot from elements and 10/15/20% absorb trivializes the encounter though, it's not like nytherios is tough. I would say whichever the person doing it is more comfortable with, I am not going to make someone kite if they prefer tanking, or vice versa. Whatever boats their float.

[ImFour20]

dont tell everyone. turbine will change the raid and make shadows do a LOT more dmg so that this can not be done anymore

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just tanked Shadows for the first time after reading this thread some time ago.

Was 100% smooth, just had to keep up with the cycling of protection from energy: cold, protection from elements and NEB. Missed a refresh of the incendiary cloud but got a swift reminder so wasn't any harm there. I think my death aura was enough of an aggro holder in general.

Was a little bit worried that I would run out of SP and in the end I was at 58 SP left when he went down so it was perfect. Could definitely improve on this, I was a little over the top on refreshing buffs and if I had have been smart enough to keep a few of those Protection from Energy: Cold (level 10) wands it could have been much better.

No special gear, level 20 drow palemaster with under 400 HP with fireshield (hot) and death aura/lesser death aura running.

Difficulty was Hard which is great as it got me my yugo pots. Got pretty skunked on the loot drops though.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just tanked shadows on normal ToD today. It is ridiculously easy. 14 base constitution, human sorcerer with nothing to help apart from protection from elements spell, fireshield, resist cold and some SF pots.

If I didn't have the SF pots it would have been simple for a cleric to throw me a heal occasionally. In the future I'll bring a protection from energy (10th) wand and alternate that and it should cut down on the SF pot usage. Slotting protection from energy at level 3 is another idea that I'm considering.

I didn't even have an appropriate fog spell to grab aggro, I just used a solid fog clicky and it worked perfect.

Mind you, this setup isn't appropriate for anything other than normal in all likelyhood but it has inspired me to look at improving his capability in this area to handle hard/elite.

[Khellendros13]

Nice Wax. You handled it well on Hard on the PM. I do believe PM's burn through a lot more SP though as NEB is so inefficient.

It's really a time thing, how long you can keep up the self healing for. WF AM has it the easiest IMO, followed by a fleshy with SF pots, then PM.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Nice Wax. You handled it well on Hard on the PM. I do believe PM's burn through a lot more SP though as NEB is so inefficient.

It's really a time thing, how long you can keep up the self healing for. WF AM has it the easiest IMO, followed by a fleshy with SF pots, then PM.

Yeah, I think the trick is to alternate a wand of protection from energy: cold (10th level) into the mix. I've got one for each toon now so will try it next time and see how it goes.

The easiest way to handle it on my PM will be to have a friendly cleric harm me occasionally I think and that should handle the SP issue (not that I really had one on hard and I'm sure with a little gear like a bauble I would handle it on elite too).

[DiabZ777]

Seriously, have you guys ever even tried doing it?

I see tips about loading this and that, getting GS item for cold absorption. No, 'tis all lies.

Get quicken, warforged and go archmage.

For normal you don't need cold absorption and you dont need to cast protection from cold.

Use fireshield and stand in one place, and for the love of god don't move.

Throw firewalls up and a lvl 8 burning cloud (I likes it) for aggro purposes and your good.

It's easy, and don't let some pale master noob tell you otherwise. :)

[arjiwan]

Seriously, have you guys ever even tried doing it?

I see tips about loading this and that, getting GS item for cold absorption. No, 'tis all lies.

Get quicken, warforged and go archmage.



Well, being a human cleric noob, it is easier for me to craft a GS item for cold absorption than craft a quickend Archmage Warforged.

[noinfo]

Seriously, have you guys ever even tried doing it?

I see tips about loading this and that, getting GS item for cold absorption. No, 'tis all lies.

Get quicken, warforged and go archmage.

For normal you don't need cold absorption and you dont need to cast protection from cold.

Use fireshield and stand in one place, and for the love of god don't move.

Throw firewalls up and a lvl 8 burning cloud (I likes it) for aggro purposes and your good.

It's easy, and don't let some pale master noob tell you otherwise. :)

And the best thing is if the WF dies everyone gets better l00t.

[DiabZ777]

Hehe :)

Just to be clear though, some of the best wizards i know are palemaster, and the guy who taught me how to tank is a wf palemaster who does exactly the same thing we archmages do as PM. I just suspect it's a bit easier with reconstruct.

My main question is why people kite, it's a hassle and gets very chaotic fast.
Still i know people that know it so well and been doing it for so long that it is understandable that they continue.

[Vellrad]

Hehe :)

Just to be clear though, some of the best wizards i know are palemaster, and the guy who taught me how to tank is a wf palemaster who does exactly the same thing we archmages do as PM. I just suspect it's a bit easier with reconstruct.

My main question is why people kite, it's a hassle and gets very chaotic fast.
Still i know people that know it so well and been doing it for so long that it is understandable that they continue.

Its probably because people don't adapt to changes, same reason why there is still that idiotic max 1caster/raid thing.

[TheDearLeader]

I had this discussion months ago, link here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=316801).

There's a video of me in action on my Water Savant, link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhQnf09vQNo).

It's definitely the way to go.

[DiabZ777]

I had this discussion months ago, link here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=316801).

There's a video of me in action on my Water Savant, link here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhQnf09vQNo).

It's definitely the way to go.

Textbook tanking, very nice job!

[GrampaBill]

I originally was hesitant to tank the shadows because I didn't want my experiment at doing it be the result of a fail run in case the shadows killed me, traveled up the steps and then wiped the party. Ended up being "forced" to do it because they were catching up to me as I kited them so I just stopped and tanked.

I didn't have all the items you had, might try using a shield the next time. I'm a water savant (with the inherent resist) with a GS water item, fire shield and an Epic Elemental Essence Ring for an additional resist increase but none of the pots nor guild slots you reference. End result: one close call but I feel confident enough to tank and not kite from now on.

[MeliCat]

I originally was hesitant to tank the shadows because I didn't want my experiment at doing it be the result of a fail run in case the shadows killed me, traveled up the steps and then wiped the party. Ended up being "forced" to do it because they were catching up to me as I kited them so I just stopped and tanked.

I didn't have all the items you had, might try using a shield the next time. I'm a water savant (with the inherent resist) with a GS water item, fire shield and an Epic Elemental Essence Ring for an additional resist increase but none of the pots nor guild slots you reference. End result: one close call but I feel confident enough to tank and not kite from now on.

Oh awesome :) I run 3 casters in there and still haven't been brave enough to try it. (no no Fel my barb needs TOD WAY more I assure you :P. )

[Tid12]

Oh awesome :) I run 3 casters in there and still haven't been brave enough to try it. (no no Fel my barb needs TOD WAY more I assure you :P. )

If you have a fleshy, grind a bit for the SF Favor enough to have the SF Pots. Sit and drink pot, usually i use 5-6 per run.

[Buragas]

Awwwh. I enjoy kiting around the shadows a.k.a "U cant touch this" style. Guess its time to switch from Air Savant to Earth for more HP :D

On the side note, yeah i've seen few ppl tank them. 0 failures from my xp so far. I guess I could clip my wings for a bit and try it.

A question for the OP and those who know: On elite, will you still be able to tank em with no cold absorption item?

Guild: Alam Perwira
Toons: Ardy / Broenick / Crowsir / Dracuvik

[wax_on_wax_off]

Awwwh. I enjoy kiting around the shadows a.k.a "U cant touch this" style. Guess its time to switch from Air Savant to Earth for more HP :D

On the side note, yeah i've seen few ppl tank them. 0 failures from my xp so far. I guess I could clip my wings for a bit and try it.

A question for the OP and those who know: On elite, will you still be able to tank em with no cold absorption item?

Guild: Alam Perwira
Toons: Ardy / Broenick / Crowsir / Dracuvik

I managed it on hard with a totally inappropriate character (drow, pm, first life, no special gear).

If you are worried just ask for a dedicated healer to watch you. This is what I'll do on elite while cycling protection from energy: cold, a 10th wand of the same, NEB/SF pots etc. Mind you, crafting a tier 2 cold absorb GS stick isn't a big deal so I'll probably do this too.

[jamu77]

Edit

[jamu77]

Been kiting a lot of times on ToD and after I tried (partially by pressure from others) tanking - I must say that is easy, very easy with dedicated healer.

Kinda like old school method, kiting gives me a lot more in return not just boring standing still and pressing few buttons...

And I'm not PM, HELL NO - never ! :)

[Urjak]

well originally ppl always asked me for kiting ... and i m a horrible shadow kiter :( ... thats why i always asked the other arcane if he/she wants to take over kiting ... until i one day saw someone tanking them ... and i was like OMG O_O ... how is that possible ... chatted a bit with that dude, read up on forums, crafted a tier2 cold absorb item, volonteered for "kiting", tanked them without ever getting close to dieing ... from now on i will never ever even THINK of kiting again lol ... though i wonder how intensive/possible this is on hard/elite since ... well ... tanking quite rapidly eats through ones sp's =/ ...

funny sidenote: yesterday joined a tod pug ... i think i was 2nd person to join or so and lfm asked for kiter (and healer,...) ... after joining and saying hi, i immediately announce: "i can tank the shadows" ... leader says okay, but keeps on going "we still need a healer and a kiter" ... while we were all telling him repeatedly that i ll tank them, thus no need for a kiter lol ... in the end he got it, i easily tanked the shadows and we completed with a smooth run ;)

[TheDearLeader]

... though i wonder how intensive/possible this is on hard/elite since ... well ... tanking quite rapidly eats through ones sp's =/ ...


One of my running mates just went Pale Master on his 18Wiz/2Rog.

ToD Hard.

Fire Shield + Death Aura + Occasional Quickened Negative Energy Burst + Risia Icy Potion of Frostbite. He got the occassional Harm from one of the Clerics, but I don't think it was necessary. He did fine, not even any "scary" moments, and had plenty of SP left over afterward.

So, no Cold Absorption Item, and still rather well done. I think it's entirely doable - although if you want, the new Epic Frozen Tunic will also give you Inherent Cold Resist - 10.

[arjiwan]

Guys,

Seriously, we need to let this thread die now. Next thing we know is, a lot of people will chime in and say part 2 TOD is now boring and easy. Needs to be buffed up.

Aaaaaaand next thing we know, on the next update, shadows will have blades. :D


Cheers!

Note:
*I tanked the shadows successfully.
** I don't hate the blade changes on Shroud

[wax_on_wax_off]

I was thinking that an Artificer could tank shadows in ToD too with the following:

Rune arm from Phiarlan Carnival (10% cold absorb, inherent cold resist 5 iirc)
Either warforged or construct essence w/ Quickened Reconstruct or SF pots
Protection from Energy spell
Protection from Energy wand
Protection from Elements
Solid Fog clicky

Well, just an idea anyway and probably overkill, still, nice to think you can do it solo on elite without any special gear.

[Forzah]

Tanked it on hard on my WF sorc, but the next time I did it on normal, a shadow got up top and I couldnt get aggro back (and the group wiped as a result). How to get aggro back? I had 4-5 cloudkills all over the stairs and it still managed to get up top...

[gloopygloop]

Tanked it on hard on my WF sorc, but the next time I did it on normal, a shadow got up top and I couldnt get aggro back (and the group wiped as a result). How to get aggro back? I had 4-5 cloudkills all over the stairs and it still managed to get up top...

Disintigrate/wall of fire/Ice Storm/any nuking ray/whatever.

You just need to hurt it enough to get its aggro to switch back to you.

If the Cleric/FvS accidentaly tossed a Divine Punishment on a Shadow instead of on the boss, then that's going to be hard to do. Most of the time, you don't need to do a huge amount of damage to get aggro back from someone who got Shadow aggro by accident.

[elraido]

One of my running mates just went Pale Master on his 18Wiz/2Rog.

ToD Hard.

Fire Shield + Death Aura + Occasional Quickened Negative Energy Burst + Risia Icy Potion of Frostbite. He got the occassional Harm from one of the Clerics, but I don't think it was necessary. He did fine, not even any "scary" moments, and had plenty of SP left over afterward.

So, no Cold Absorption Item, and still rather well done. I think it's entirely doable - although if you want, the new Epic Frozen Tunic will also give you Inherent Cold Resist - 10.

It was because I was in the party and saved it......:D

[ciep]

Thanks for sharing the info, a couple other tips:

1) I always ask the FVS to not turn on their archon in part two, as a stray shot once grabbed a shadow's aggro.

2) Other spells worth trying in addition to damage ones: glitterdust (a favorite) and dancy ball. They both can grab aggro. There is a bard on Cannith that used to kite elite just using glitterdust, but probably could've tanked as well.

[Jakian]

Thanks for sharing the info, a couple other tips:

1) I always ask the FVS to not turn on their archon in part two, as a stray shot once grabbed a shadow's aggro.

2) Other spells worth trying in addition to damage ones: glitterdust (a favorite) and dancy ball. They both can grab aggro. There is a bard on Cannith that used to kite elite just using glitterdust, but probably could've tanked as well.

A Thread on what not to do when the shadow-tanking strategy is used.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=348045

[GrampaBill]

Had a fail on part 2 this weekend. Our best guess was the Arti in the party was plinking the Shadows away from me. Even with firewalls on the boss, one stayed up there and took everyone out.

We reformed and the second run was quite easy. Real easy. The Arti put a dome on me the second run and I don't know if that made a difference or not. What does it do? Looks sort of like a Globe of Invulnerability.

[smatt]

Had a fail on part 2 this weekend. Our best guess was the Arti in the party was plinking the Shadows away from me. Even with firewalls on the boss, one stayed up there and took everyone out.

We reformed and the second run was quite easy. Real easy. The Arti put a dome on me the second run and I don't know if that made a difference or not. What does it do? Looks sort of like a Globe of Invulnerability.


Don't use firewalls..... Use cloudkill for shadow agro, wraiths hae evasion now, and the often make their saves on firewall. Whereas the cloud spells require no save to gain agro....

[Qezuzu]

Had a fail on part 2 this weekend. Our best guess was the Arti in the party was plinking the Shadows away from me. Even with firewalls on the boss, one stayed up there and took everyone out.

We reformed and the second run was quite easy. Real easy. The Arti put a dome on me the second run and I don't know if that made a difference or not. What does it do? Looks sort of like a Globe of Invulnerability.

The globe is Radiant Forcefield, which reduces incoming damage by 25% for anyone within it.

[doulos4iesou]

Great thread but I have a quick question, we seem to have a difference of opinion here on triple water GS items for cold absorbtion:


After seeing way too many wipes in pt2 of ToD, I am now getting frustrated and

In order of effectiveness:

* Fire shield (50%) + Triple Water GS weapon (45%) + Protection from Elements
or



Can I suggest people that might not want to invest 3 LDS in a 10/15/20 cold absorb item do at least invest 3 MDS (medium devil scales) in a 10/15 cold absorb item.

23.5% absorption goes a long way. Not quite as far as the full 38.8% absorption of a tier 3 one, but it's a real boost. And easier to acquire than 9 trophies for newer arcanes.

I always thought the triple item absorption was the final number stated, i.e 20% or that the tier absorptions do not stack. Your help is appreciated.

[cdr]

I always thought the triple item absorption was the final number stated, i.e 20% or that the tier absorptions do not stack. Your help is appreciated.

Unique absorption values "stack" consecutively. 20% is applied, then 15%, then 10% - a net reduction of 38.8%, as sirgog stated. Non-unique values, like two items with 20%, do not stack.

[MrFister]

So I failed to kite an Elite ToD last night. I suck. No one hates me more than I do. Anyway.

Is the tanking method the same on elite, just... longer? Is there a higher threshold for HP and/or items? I am a 20 PM without ~500 hp and have a tier2 cold absorb dagger.

[Chauncey1]

Ooooh KITING!

Not KNITTING.

This thread makes much more sense now.

[Munkenmo]

So I failed to kite an Elite ToD last night. I suck. No one hates me more than I do. Anyway.

Is the tanking method the same on elite, just... longer? Is there a higher threshold for HP and/or items? I am a 20 PM without ~500 hp and have a tier2 cold absorb dagger.

i do elites with tier 2 cold absorbtion and fireshield on wizenmo just fine, i've only got about 440hp on him buffed too.

[BladeTricks]

I don't have Quicken on my Water Savant. Is it possible to reliably time the Reconstructs and Protection from Elements to not be interrupted? Is it game over if interrupted once or still enough time to recover?

My toon: ~500HP, 45 cold resist, fire shield (hot).

[Luthe111]

i regularly kite tod, and i can tell u, haste and incendiary cloud bout all u need to do it well. however lag exists, and so fire shield is great. never bothered with protect either. cold resist and fire shield r all ive really needed with haste. when i have some ill drink risia frostbite potions. dont run shroud much, but thinking i might make cold absorb gs just so i can even goof around a bit kiting. though as i like in this thread, skill and strategy prevails, and gear is listed as: to help. can manage with little, but also little effort to make it so much easier. another nice tip is to make sure ur archers have improved precise shot OFF

[HernandoCortez]

I wasn't confident of running ToD on my caster until I read this thread. Crafted me a GS dagger and have completed every single run by tanking the shadows. I can still add to the DPS by dotting. Thank you very much Khellendros13. +1 to you sir.

[TheDearLeader]

I don't have Quicken on my Water Savant. Is it possible to reliably time the Reconstructs and Protection from Elements to not be interrupted? Is it game over if interrupted once or still enough time to recover?

My toon: ~500HP, 45 cold resist, fire shield (hot).

If you get an absorption item, you're getting hit for maybe 30~40 points per tick.

Assuming you have a 60+ Concentration, you don't even *need* to time Reconstruct.

[Scortius]

I don't have Quicken on my Water Savant. Is it possible to reliably time the Reconstructs and Protection from Elements to not be interrupted? Is it game over if interrupted once or still enough time to recover?

My toon: ~500HP, 45 cold resist, fire shield (hot).

It's not game over if you get interrupted once, but Quicken does indeed help. If you start getting interrupted the idea of "reliably timing" kinda goes out the window. I recently swapped in Quicken and it made the situation much more stable and controllable.



By the way, how high can cold resistance get? Regular Resist 30 plus Savant 15 plus 5+10 exceptional +8 Guild comes up to 68. (I've reached 66 w/ a medium guild slot).

[MRMechMan]

It's not game over if you get interrupted once, but Quicken does indeed help. If you start getting interrupted the idea of "reliably timing" kinda goes out the window. I recently swapped in Quicken and it made the situation much more stable and controllable.



By the way, how high can cold resistance get? Regular Resist 30 plus Savant 15 plus 5+10 exceptional +8 Guild comes up to 68. (I've reached 66 w/ a medium guild slot).

Ranger PLs, +6, for 74.

Really, even for elite fireshield is all you need to tank. The more absorb items the better. Self healing obviously a plus. More HP is nice.

The only reason elite is harder is that it takes longer...damage goes up a bit maybe but not much.

[goodspeed]

It still gets me when I see a tod raid up and they have everything they need and they're sitting their looking for a kiter. Me I don't think i'd want someone kiting all that **** around me. And theirs so much **** you can use to absorb elements anymore. Whether it's spells or gear or both combined. Hell that epic challenge stuff has it for a couple things.

And you just gotta stand there and take small hits. Raid tips must be coveted secrets. And alot of people must not google.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I really like a CL 10 wand of protection from energy on my fleshy sorcerer or palemaster. Cuts down nicely on the amount of healing needed.

[Mrmorphling]

I don't have Quicken on my Water Savant. Is it possible to reliably time the Reconstructs and Protection from Elements to not be interrupted? Is it game over if interrupted once or still enough time to recover?

My toon: ~500HP, 45 cold resist, fire shield (hot).

With no quicken and no cold absorb i would ask someone to keep an eye on you as during critical phase (when the second batch comes in) you might fail a conc check at the wrong time (it can happend also due to a slight desynch of you client); in a decent group with one melee grabbing boss aggro the amount of healing needed top stair should be minimal so plenty of time to toss you an heal here and there.

For what concern elite it is surely doable with cold shield alone but it might get SP intensive in a soso DPS group due to the increased duration of the fight (much longer than hard).

[NaturalHazard]

Im willing to try this on my ranger, how reliable is solid fog for the aggro? Does evasion help? ive recently gotten myself some epic demon scale armour, a self buffed 44 reflex save, a firesheild 580 hp, 150 hp cure serious, (hopefully a bard or divine keepig an eye on me) would this be enough? the cold absorbtion on the armour is 15% I could make cold absorb tod ring, would this stack?

[Tid12]

Im willing to try this on my ranger, how reliable is solid fog for the aggro? Does evasion help? ive recently gotten myself some epic demon scale armour, a self buffed 44 reflex save, a firesheild 580 hp, 150 hp cure serious, (hopefully a bard or divine keepig an eye on me) would this be enough? the cold absorbtion on the armour is 15% I could make cold absorb tod ring, would this stack?

Solid fog is awesome to keep aggro, i do it all the time with my sorc.
Evasion isnt needed, they dont hit you with spells.
And i think the 15% on the armor doesnt stack with the Tod ring, same %.

[svinja]

Im willing to try this on my ranger, how reliable is solid fog for the aggro? Does evasion help? ive recently gotten myself some epic demon scale armour, a self buffed 44 reflex save, a firesheild 580 hp, 150 hp cure serious, (hopefully a bard or divine keepig an eye on me) would this be enough? the cold absorbtion on the armour is 15% I could make cold absorb tod ring, would this stack?

You will be fine on normal, not sure about harder difficulties as I avoid tanking them (not because of damage, but because it takes longer and I don't want to run out of SP healing myself as I have no cold absorb). I don't think evasion or reflex helps. However, you could combine your CSW with the level 2 ranger spell Protection from Energy (the cold version), this is basically a 120 HP pre-emptive heal for very little SP. So you have 2 "heals" on 2 separate cooldowns. I would recommend you do this because I am not sure 150 point CSWs on a 6 second (I think?) cooldown will be enough with 15% cold absorb. However with Protection from Energy, it will be enough. Although, I guess you have other heals too, but prot is a lot more effective.

At one point, the shadows will disappear, this is a good time to refresh the solid fog and your fire shield. On normal, this should give you plenty of time for the raid to kill the boss.

[Silverleafeon]

+1

[mystafyi]

[QUOTE=Tid12;4413105Evasion isnt needed, they dont hit you with spells. [/QUOTE]
IIRC, the shadows cold hits dont seem to proc torc/con-op. will have to pay attention next time

[sweez]

It's an environmental effect I think, doesn't offer reflex save nor does it proc guards.

[MRMechMan]

It's an environmental effect I think, doesn't offer reflex save nor does it proc guards.

Correct.

[arjiwan]

Revisiting this great thread.

I have a question to the experts. I've been tanking with my cleric every time with no problems.

I use solid fog clicky and the fog spell that the cleric has, forgot the name.

I also add blade barriers on the stairs and also below it.

Lately, there are some shadows that escapes and goes to the group. Some say someone is using intimidate. Some say it is because of the AOE spells from other sources. Firstly, I am doubting that anyone in those runs are using intimi.

Ok, let's just say they intimi and AOE spells, does it mean the cleric is really useless to grab aggro?

I have max wisdom and greater evocation items for my blade barrier if that helps.

[sweez]

Sometimes, they just go through. I've heard many explanations, some related to lag, but I have definitely seen them go through 3 different fogs, PM aura, disco ball, head for the group, and then stay at the group even after getting hit with crit necro rays (even if someone accidentally pulled aggro there's no way they're outdpsing someone who's critting necro rays unless they're doing it on purpose, and I was watching very closely and it definitely wasn't the case). It's like they completely ignore one person's aggro, might be a network sync issue or something.


Most of the times though, it's either some PM forgetting and turning on their aura and then standing too close (just use burst if you aren't the one that's tanking them), some ranged toon forgetting to turn off IPS and/or starting to shoot when shadows are spawned but Nythirios isn't quite yet selectable, or someone using a t3 alchem weapon (funny though that most tod 'leaders' don't mention those, but they do mention archon which absolutely WON'T shoot at anything it's owner hasn't damaged by some other means).

[daniel7]

If you have 2 pale masters in the party why not both of them tank? 2 auras and 2 negative energy bursters. Have them use different spells for aggro so you can see who needs to recast. They can both put up an AoE ontop of themselves To insure that aggro isn't lost if one of them dies.
While tanking they can also have DoTs on the boss and a divine can spam mass protect if needed.

[sirgog]

So I failed to kite an Elite ToD last night. I suck. No one hates me more than I do. Anyway.

Is the tanking method the same on elite, just... longer? Is there a higher threshold for HP and/or items? I am a 20 PM without ~500 hp and have a tier2 cold absorb dagger.

Yeah you tank Elite the same as you tank Normal.

The three main differences:

1 - Nythirios is more dangerous on Elite. His melee attacks hurt. This means that while on Normal you can rely on external healing when tanking shadows (the same FvS or Clr that is raidhealing can heal you too), on Elite you aren't getting outside help much at all. (On Elite Nyth ideally will be AC tanked with the raid flanking him to minimize damage).

2 - Nythirios has a lot more HP on Elite. This means you need to stay alive while tanking for much, much longer. To achieve a 0 pot run, you want to have a higher HP buffer and more cold absorb so that you can spend less SP on selfhealing. (You spend less with more HP as you can wait longer between heals - a 400hp Sorc might need to burn a 300 point Reconstruct when they hit 160hp and thus needs to heal every 240 damage, while a 550hp Sorc can wait until they are going to get full value from a non-crit Recon before casting it)

3 - Because Nyth lasts longer, more shadows will spawn and there's more chance to accidentally kill one (which can mess up your plans a little as dead shadows respawn).

I don't think shadows do any more or less damage per AoE pulse on Elite than on Normal. If there is a difference it is not much.

On all difficulties, two shadows spawn a few seconds after Nyth spawns, and they despawn (die) at 75%. Then two shadows spawn (during the DM voiceover at 75%), followed by three further waves of two shadows each after set delays (might be 1 minute per pair). Slain shadows also respawn but I'm not sure how this interacts with the timer. Normal groups usually down Nyth well before the 5th and 6th shadows spawn. On Elite, all but the highest DPS groups will see eight.

However, when tanking, having more shadows to keep track of isn't a real problem (proximity to seven shadows is no more damaging than proximity to one). What the extra ones do is mess badly with kiting strategies and also make it more difficult to keep tabs on just which shadows have and have not been aggroed on you.

[Muspellsheimr]

(funny though that most tod 'leaders' don't mention those, but they do mention archon which absolutely WON'T shoot at anything it's owner hasn't damaged by some other means).

Favored Soul lantern archons will attack anything that has already been damaged, regardless of who did the damage. Have tested this many times.

[Khellendros13]

I am so glad the discussion is continuing, and that people are finding it useful.

At some point, I have been hit by a Cone of Cold from a shadow. I vaguely remember it being while attempting a Duo ToD, and I think they only rarely cast it. I think it hit me for around 220 on an evasion toon so I must of rolled a 1.

I will try to look closer next time on a normal run.

[sweez]

If you have 2 pale masters in the party why not both of them tank? 2 auras and 2 negative energy bursters. Have them use different spells for aggro so you can see who needs to recast. They can both put up an AoE ontop of themselves To insure that aggro isn't lost if one of them dies.
While tanking they can also have DoTs on the boss and a divine can spam mass protect if needed.

The mere idea of tanking shadows is esoteric enough for most pug tod leaders, now two people tanking them at the same time and their heads would explode :p

But yeah done that a few times in guild runs, works like a charm.

[sweez]

Favored Soul lantern archons will attack anything that has already been damaged, regardless of who did the damage. Have tested this many times.

Huh. Was running some leveling quests with a fvs yesterday and I could swear that their archon wouldn't hit stuff I was torching behind them. Been too long since I actually played a fvs though so I might as well be wrong lol :(

[sweez]

I am so glad the discussion is continuing, and that people are finding it useful.

At some point, I have been hit by a Cone of Cold from a shadow. I vaguely remember it being while attempting a Duo ToD, and I think they only rarely cast it. I think it hit me for around 220 on an evasion toon so I must of rolled a 1.

I will try to look closer next time on a normal run.

You sure it wasn't Nyth?

[MRMechMan]

You sure it wasn't Nyth?

It probably was...I have never seen shadows do anything resembling a spell or melee attack so I really doubt it was a shadow.

After my guildy soloed TOD recently on his arcane I have been pondering it on my WF fvs...tanking shadows is easy, tanking nytherios is easy, tanking both has proved...troublesome. They heal him a ton and I just don't have the DPS to do it without pots, can only get him to around 60-70% alone.

[Beetlebluebird]

Did this on my Bard yesterday using a solid fog clicky (only needed to use it twice) and glitterdust. Shield in one hand, heal scroll in the other and fire shield before the first wave and during the break time. Worked great, definitely easier than kiting. :)

[Infant]

Sometimes, they just go through. I've heard many explanations, some related to lag, but I have definitely seen them go through 3 different fogs, PM aura, disco ball, head for the group, and then stay at the group even after getting hit with crit necro rays (even if someone accidentally pulled aggro there's no way they're outdpsing someone who's critting necro rays unless they're doing it on purpose,

IPS+Manyshot or fussilade could create a great deal of aggro, no?

[sweez]

IPS+Manyshot or fussilade could create a great deal of aggro, no?

Yeah, but in one run where the shadows were just completely ignoring my aoe/rays, there weren't any ranged toons nor was anyone using intim :\

[Truga]

Lately, there are some shadows that escapes and goes to the group. Some say someone is using intimidate. Some say it is because of the AOE spells from other sources. Firstly, I am doubting that anyone in those runs are using intimi.

Death aura (pale masters), or the FvS archon seem to grab aggro of off things they don't even hit sometimes.

Also, I found that on my PM, if I have an anathema equipped (forgot to take it off after tanking jailer), weird things happen. I do nothing, yet grab aggro off of things. Had shadows on me a couple times now, for no apparent reason. I've even had Horoth jump down from his pillar, run past the tank, and the entire raid group, and into me standing all the way back at the portal doing nothing other than casting haste before boots are put on and never moving from there.

Sometimes aggro is really weird.

[Vellrad]

The mere idea of tanking shadows is esoteric enough for most pug tod leaders, now two people tanking them at the same time and their heads would explode :p

But yeah done that a few times in guild runs, works like a charm.

I'd say most pug leaders' minds are would explode at smallest though on allowing 2 casters into raid.

[Truga]

I'd say most pug leaders' minds are would explode at smallest though on allowing 2 casters into raid.

Sword or axe does more DPS than a book, didn't you know that?

[Vellrad]

Sword or axe does more DPS than a book, didn't you know that?

All I've heard is dead don't do DPS at all.

[Khellendros13]

You sure it wasn't Nyth?

He must have a crazy range for Cone of Cold then. I will pay more attention next time to verify.

[Solmage]

I'd say most pug leaders' minds are would explode at smallest though on allowing 2 casters into raid.

We used to get tells saying how we were going to fail because we brought 4 casters :(

Anyway, as far as shadows just going for the group, it's usually one of these, and yes, these DO happen rather frequently:

- Ranger/Arti forgot to turn off improved precise shot and just did several 1000s worth of damage to the shadow during his multishot.

- FvS/Cleric/Other Wizard accidentally cast a dot on one of the shadows since they had auto targetting on. (Yes, this has happened in at least 4 groups I've been on)

- 2nd Wizard/Sorc on top placed an ice storm on the boss rather poorly, and it's also hitting shadows.

- 2nd Wizard/Sorc on top is nuking with cone of cold and such and just hit a shadow for 2000 damage, instead of just dotting.

- Kiter/Tanker only put down a firewall/Bladebarrier up, and the shadows made their reflex save vs it, ignoring it.

But when the shadows go past an acid fog with an ice storm on it and past a PMs aura, you can be sure it was one of the first 4 reasons 99% of the time. (I'd say 100% but you never know when something genuinely wonky happens :))

[slarden]

Excellent write-up. I just used this technique tonight and it is certainly much better than kiting.

[NaturalHazard]

nice necro.................wait people still run TOD?

[Vellrad]

nice necro.................wait people still run TOD?

5k favor is coming.
Need to prepare alts for +5 tomes.

[slarden]

nice necro.................wait people still run TOD?

Yeah I join whatever raid others want to run - plus it's fun and I hope to see an epic version some day. I didn't realize this was in the general section - I thought it was in the guide section.

It's not really a necro since the TOD ddo wiki entry links to this thread, but rather than closing it as a necro it should be moved to the guide section in my opinion.

[Hendrik]

Yeah I join whatever raid others want to run - plus it's fun and I hope to see an epic version some day. I didn't realize this was in the general section - I thought it was in the guide section.

It's not really a necro since the TOD ddo wiki entry links to this thread, but rather than closing it as a necro it should be moved to the guide section in my opinion.

It's a three year old thread, it IS a necro and you know what they do with necro posting.

Instead of getting this thread locked for necro posting, should have contacted site admin and asked them to move it.

Now it is going to get locked and maybe moved.

Just defeated your whole purpose.

:(

[slarden]

It's a three year old thread, it IS a necro and you know what they do with necro posting.

Instead of getting this thread locked for necro posting, should have contacted site admin and asked them to move it.

Now it is going to get locked and maybe moved.

Just defeated your whole purpose.

:(

I just wanted to acknowledge the OP's nice work which I was able to do. I just assumed this was in the guide section - I guess I should have checked. Well at least people can still find it through DDO Wiki.

[goodspeed]

I just wanted to acknowledge the OP's nice work which I was able to do. I just assumed this was in the guide section - I guess I should have checked. Well at least people can still find it through DDO Wiki.

thought this was old. lol people still running tod. Can you imagine? haha.

[unbongwah]

nice necro.................wait people still run TOD?
Yes, they do (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/436866-High-Lords-will-host-teaching-raid-Tower-of-Despair-on-Saturday-March-1-at-8pm-EST!) - in some cases for the first time! :)

[NaturalHazard]

Yes, they do (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/436866-High-Lords-will-host-teaching-raid-Tower-of-Despair-on-Saturday-March-1-at-8pm-EST!) - in some cases for the first time! :)

I miss TOD :( , was a decent raid to run yeah a little too straight forward but still.