Gear Checking

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Edit: Due to people's comments about the nature of this guide I'm trying to make, I'd like to make VERY VERY clear that the outlines I have in this guide are NOT requirements to run X quest. Consider them a recommendation. Many people do not have the gear I list and still do absolutely fine in many epic quests and more. The player behind the character means more to the character than the character's gear. THAT SAID. Gear is helpful to EVERYONE no matter what their ability to play the game. For players who don't understand why they're dying in endgame quests or why other people can contribute so much more to a party than they, this guide can advise them what gear they should be looking for.

My goal in this is to outline useful gear that everyone could find very helpful (note: I did not say essential :D) in the quests that they run in addition to rank epic quests into difficulty tiers so that players who are new to epics can "build from the bottom up" so to speak.

Enjoy :) and please keep things civil ;)

My friend who plays WoW (or wow why do i play this game? :D) was telling me about how different raids serve as "gear checks".

"Gear Check" just means that if you don't have necessary gear, chances are you aren't contributing as much as you SHOULD be.

So I'd like some help getting a guide together about what it means to be sufficiently geared for a quest. I think this will help newer players understand what is expected of them in quests and what items they should have in order to fulfill the expectations. AKA why a fresh 20 should NOT be clicking that LFM to epic LOB for example :)
Furthermore, each raid has many different ROLES which should be covered individually. So as an example template...

[QUEST NAME]
-----Also Known As: -name-
-----Recommended LVL: (for the different difficulties N/H/E)
-----ROLE: -name-
-----GEAR: -Listed Items-
-----HP/SP/TO-HIT: (Probably not, but a BASE line might be helpful.)
-----Explanation: (Reasoning why certain items are strongly recommended and why you would want a certain amount of HP/SP)

The quests I have in mind for this guide are raids and epic quests because these are the basis of end game besides TRing (if you consider that end game).

So to start, I'd like to order quests from least gear intensive to most gear intensive. (and if I'm missing any other quests you think should be in this list, let me know! :) ) I'm also going to list lower level raids because they should also serve as gear checks as someone levels up!

Remember, this is about GEAR. Player skill and the ability to LISTEN and follow direction should simply be a given in difficult quests. While player skill can make up for a lack of equipment, this guide aims to show what should be expected of a person running a certain quest.

My experience at TRUE end game (Elite TOD and Epic LOB and ect) is very very limited so I'd like help from people who are have experience there and let us know what is required at the very top level. Same thing with epics because I don't run many different epics...In other words, this guide will help me too ;)

Consider this an expansion of Aranticus's fantastic guide "Help! Am I Raid Ready?". I plan to add epic quests in order of difficulty as well.

(Non-level 20 content: Listed by quest level then gearing)
[Chronoscope]

[Tempest Spine]

[Twilight Forge]

[Vault of Night]

[Zawabi's Revenge]

[Reaver's Fate]

[The Shroud]

[Hound of Xoriat]

[A Vision of Destruction]

[Ascension Chamber]

[Tower of Despair]

(EPICS - Need help from community here for ordering these...)
Easy Epics...(Or in other words, fresh level 20s with little raid loot and maybe a single GS item)
[Phiarlan Carnival]
[VON 1 and 2]
[Bargain of Blood]
[Red Fens, excluding Into the Deep]

Medium Epics...(some epic gear, raid loot expected, Multiple GS items, most epics will fall in this category)
[Wiz-King]
[Offering of Blood]
[Plane of Night]
[Zawabi's Revenge]
[Against the Demon Queen]
[Any epic quests not listed in EASY EPICS or ELITE EPICS]
Elite TOD might be listed under here as well as other difficult quests...

Elite Epics...(Truly reserved for the best of the best gear wise)
Lord of Blades
hmm maybe this category is a little narrow.

In any case, I'd like to hear what everyone has to say and I'll edit this post with people's suggestions!
Thanks for reading :)

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

In case I need another post
[reserved]

IDEAS/DISCUSSIONS + my comments
- Adding lower level gear progression is helpful
- This guide is obsolete to DDOwiki and guides already made
.// I love DDOwiki and all the guides on the forum, but I have yet to really see any articles that really try to order endgame quests in any kind of difficulty order. For players new to epic, I'm absolutely certain this will help players get introduced to epics in a kinder fashion. This guide will attempt to do that as well. Furthermore, it gives newer players ideas about what gear that their character, regardless of build and player ability, can work towards attaining to improve their character.
- Having gear recommendations will mean more elitism
.// I can't make it clear enough that recommendations are JUST recommendations. If people want to post LFMs that say "Link your BBs", then they are the ones at fault and not the source of the information. People get by with what other people may call "substandard" but gear/stats does NOT define a character like the player behind the character does. All the uber gear in the world won't save a character if they can't understand why they should have brought curse pots to a VoD.
- I am not qualified to write this guide
.// This may or may not be true. However, I consider myself competent to see a good idea when it is presented and I am willing to listen to other people's input. I really do want this to be a helpful guide and I'd like as much opinion on the matter as possible.
- More gear in DDO means strengthening by increments as opposed to other games where gear can increase damage output by factors of three and higher
.// This doesn't take into account that other games scale monsters exponentially as a result. The difference between having an Epic Marilith Chain or RDS armor to those who don't is actually far greater than one might expect. Lit IIs versus holy burst of pure good...bloodstone vs not bloodstone...GFL plus tier 3 GS HP item vs not...gear may not multiply one's output but to call in insignificant, imo, is not right.
- May actually be info light because "good to have" items are few
.// True. However, this guide is more than about the gear (although that is what is being fixated on at the moment). I'd also like to order endgame quests in order of difficulty and expectations for how difficult a quest might be to someone who has never done an epic. Between these two objectives, I think there is enough content for a great guide :)

[Airgeadlam]

Well... I think your intention here is good. A guide is always nice, but this thread has some danger in it as well. I mean.. Gear for Tempest Spine? Really? More drama coming!

Anyway, +1 for the helpful intention.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Well... I think your intention here is good. A guide is always nice, but this thread has some danger in it as well. I mean.. Gear for Tempest Spine? Really? More drama coming!

Anyway, +1 for the helpful intention.

haha I see your point...
Hmm maybe I'll re-think this and edge it for level 18 and up.
Up till that point, I think gearing is fairly common sense.

I really meant this for level 20s though where players can figure out how useful they can expect to be in a certain quest.

Any other opinions are welcome :)

[Brennie]

haha I see your point...
Hmm maybe I'll re-think this and edge it for level 18 and up.
Up till that point, I think gearing is fairly common sense.

I really meant this for level 20s though where players can figure out how useful they can expect to be in a certain quest.

Any other opinions are welcome :)

Some lower level checks are a good idea. Heavy fort, for example, can be slotted by 9, probably should be slotted by 12, and I'd consider 15 on the very very outside.

[gerardIII]

Gear for Tempest Spine?

Grease clicky.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Some lower level checks are a good idea. Heavy fort, for example, can be slotted by 9, probably should be slotted by 12, and I'd consider 15 on the very very outside.

Okay. I think I will add in some stuff for lower level characters after all. I think it'll be better for it to be more generic as from levels 1-15 are not so gear intensive. Will contain content about things such as +X stat items, Fortification, Potions every character SHOULD have, and ect. IMO, most people can expect to get to 17 without a problem without any named items.

Also, I think for end game content, I'm going to NOT do things based on level first, gear second like I have it in the OP. I think its preferable to simply divide gear checking into three or maybe four "Tiers"

17-fresh level 20 characters [Tier 0//Adventurer]
-----+6 stat items, 1-2 Tier 2 GS items, some raid loot that may or may not be best in slot
----- These characters should have no problem contributing to Shroud, HoX, and VoD on normal (Note: TRs under 20 may qualify for Tier 1 gearing)

Moderate geared level 20s [Tier 1//Champion]
-----Randomly generated gear is kept to a minimum, +6 items, 3-4 Tier 2~3 GS items (at least 1 of which are fully upgraded), valuable raid loot acquired (Chattering Ring for AC builds, Madstone Boots, Tharne's Goggles, Head of Good Fortune, Litany of the Dead ect.), Event epic gear, DR breakers, MAYBE an epic item
-----This is probably where most players are. These characters are well prepared for easier epics such as EBOB and ECarnival and can contribute.

Well geared level 20s [Tier 2//Hero]
-----No randomly generated gear, +6 items but +7 items can be expected, 3-5 Tier 3 GS items (perhaps a couple tier 2 for niche swaps), several epic items, many best in slot items
-----These characters can be expected to be well worth their slot in any quest in the game. Harder epics such as EChrono, ECoF, EDA are well within the grasp of these Tier 2 characters.

Top tier, elite geared level 20s [Tier 3//Legend]
-----Characters in this tier may not have any items they want anymore. The goal here is to dominate the existing raids and to trivialize game content. These characters are the kind who might say something like "ESoS? Hah! I use those as my throwing daggers!"
-----This tier is really a character at their peak. Not much to say about this really.

I will post a draft when I have time. Thanks for the input all! This guide should really help a lot of people out especially with more and more players with capped characters and the content becoming less and less forgiving!

[Chilldude]

My friend who plays WoW (or wow why do i play this game? :D) was telling me about how different raids serve as "gear checks".

WoW needs gear checks because end game content is impossible without a certain level of gear. Not extremely difficult, impossible. Raid bosses in WoW have enrage timers, that is, after a certain amount of time has passed in the fight they go super nova on the entire raid and everyone dies. Your healers could be swimming in pools of mana, but the entire raid is going to die.

DDO isn't WoW. I don't think people should try to turn it into WoW. We need civility more than we need gear checks in my opinion.

[Musouka]

DDO definitely isn't WoW.

We get +7 stat items at max, with +1 and +2 exceptionals.

However, in WoW, they get items that boost their stats by 100s. Attributes ARE very much more gear dependent than DDO.

I'm also sorry if we all don't just line up for your idea of conformity.

[Cleanincubus]

Most of the info needed is already at DDOWiki. It lets you know what kind of DR a quest/raid end boss has, SR that might be involved for enemies, trap DC, etc. I think it's more of a case that new players don't take the time to get informed, before just jumping into quests.

[smeggy1384]

If you can throw us a link to where to say craft a greensteel item. I know they are crafted.. but beyond that not a bit about them.

Some pointers on what loot from a raid would be good for leveling.. such as the abashi set from chronoscope.. looks kind of nice at first, but is that really going to help? Should i drop it for red fens sets, lordsmarch chain set? Some items are pretty much no brainers, and some (like flesh renders goggles from tangleroot) are pointed out so much its hard to miss knowing you need that.

As far as cannith crafting (done in house K, perhaps it should be Kannith crafting? :P ) are there any must haves? Or just a link to a guide on that.

[Musouka]

Some items are pretty much no brainers, and some (like flesh renders goggles from tangleroot) are pointed out so much its hard to miss knowing you need that.

As far as cannith crafting (done in house K, perhaps it should be Kannith crafting? :P ) are there any must haves? Or just a link to a guide on that.

Do you solo a lot? Then yes Visor of the Flesh Render Guards would be worthwhile. If you party a lot, it's not so much needed as you'll most likely run into a cleric or favored soul with deathward, or even a hireling with it.

Cannith crafting is also done in house Cannith.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Yikes!
I mention WoW and it all falls to pieces.

I think gear checking IS pertinent to DDO and even more so with the release of U11. And yes, gear checking is not the same as it is in DDO and WoW since DDO is more forgiving for people with worse gear.

That said.

DDO's endgame content is becoming more and more difficult. This means that the gap between fresh level 20s and geared level 20s is also widening and this is part of the reason we see posts about how people need to be properly prepared for certain endgame content.

This is why I think a guide like this is helpful.

Again, this guide will provide what is considered "base line" as far as gear goes. It simply is a suggestion for what is expected gear wise to competently aid a party through a quest/raid/instance.

DDOWiki is awesome but doesn't have an article about how long gear is useful when leveling and does not rate how difficult some endgame quests are to other endgame quests. This is part of the reason I want to create a guide like this.

[smeggy1384]

Yikes!
I mention WoW and it all falls to pieces.

I think gear checking IS pertinent to DDO and even more so with the release of U11. And yes, gear checking is not the same as it is in DDO and WoW since DDO is more forgiving for people with worse gear.

That said.

DDO's endgame content is becoming more and more difficult. This means that the gap between fresh level 20s and geared level 20s is also widening and this is part of the reason we see posts about how people need to be properly prepared for certain endgame content.

This is why I think a guide like this is helpful.

Again, this guide will provide what is considered "base line" as far as gear goes. It simply is a suggestion for what is expected gear wise to competently aid a party through a quest/raid/instance.

DDOWiki is awesome but doesn't have an article about how long gear is useful when leveling and does not rate how difficult some endgame quests are to other endgame quests. This is part of the reason I want to create a guide like this.

Yes i think it would be very helpful. If i know i need to farm that level 10 quest until i get item A to be ready for a raid i will do it.

Fleshrender goggles was just one that popped to mind.. but doesn't matter if solo or grouped, can still be useful. If you can click that (my char being an arti, will last a while, unless dispelled) and save the cleriv/fvs some SP why not? If endgame stuff is really getting harder why should each member not make some effort(save the healer SP in other words) to help with buffing where it's needed? I'd love a list of other helpful clickies i should be collecting to help fill my bags along with bolts and potions.

[Pfold]

My friend who plays WoW (or wow why do i play this game? :D) was telling me about how different raids serve as "gear checks".

"Gear Check" just means that if you don't have necessary gear you wipe and cannot advance.



Fixed for you.

Having gear check points in DDO is pointless. The majority of the raids have only 1 boss. 1 boss means there is no advancement within the raid. Gear doesn't become irrelevant every few months.

The characters I first made still wield greensteel. The characters I have with epic armors will probably have the same armors for the next year+. Is that epic SoS I crafted for my fighter going to be dated in 6 months? Probably not. 1 year? Probably not. Turbine has painted itself into a corner in this regard. It cannot just 'purge' people's equipment because they still have to sell the packages or access to the locations where those items came from.

In wow, as they release more content, all equipment becomes quickly dated (the proverbial carrot) and has to be replaced/upgraded regularly to be on par with the content. If the equipment doesn't become dated, well, there just wouldn't be a point in running the new stuff repeatedly (well maybe for cheevo points).

Apples and oranges imo.

On a side note, pushing gear check fights would mean those that are willing to see this in the game would also be willing to have a statistics counter running in game (like recount, wwstats etc). I just don't see this happening. I mean just read the posts about people getting kicked over hp...

[smeggy1384]

Cannith crafting is also done in house Cannith.

Is it? When i started the business of deconstruct an item for an essense the entrance was in house K.. i was told that was cannith crafting. This was before house C was out, so perhaps i was just given the wrong name.

Just a quick search found this link: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Cannith_Crafting_Guide

Shows cannith crafting, entrance in house K. Go turbine!

[Musouka]

Yikes!
I mention WoW and it all falls to pieces.

I think gear checking IS pertinent to DDO and even more so with the release of U11. And yes, gear checking is not the same as it is in DDO and WoW since DDO is more forgiving for people with worse gear.

That said.

DDO's endgame content is becoming more and more difficult. This means that the gap between fresh level 20s and geared level 20s is also widening and this is part of the reason we see posts about how people need to be properly prepared for certain endgame content.

This is why I think a guide like this is helpful.

Again, this guide will provide what is considered "base line" as far as gear goes. It simply is a suggestion for what is expected gear wise to competently aid a party through a quest/raid/instance.

DDOWiki is awesome but doesn't have an article about how long gear is useful when leveling and does not rate how difficult some endgame quests are to other endgame quests. This is part of the reason I want to create a guide like this.

What you're creating is not helpful. It is a conformity guideline. It says if you don't have this, don't apply for the pugs. It will be used as a benchmark, and in order to play the game everyone will have to conform to the standards set forth. Awful idea.

It will ostracize people, and actually limit pugging.

EDIT: If you want people in your group with specific gear or stats, write it in the LFM.

[Kmnh]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Help!_Am_I_Raid_Ready

That's all the info you need.


Basic gear for shroud is a boss beater and a heavy fort item. They are easy to get, and if you say you are a first timer there is a good chance someone might just give it to you.

For HoX and VoD you want the minos legens hat and a +25 hp green steel accessory and +6 items for your relevant stats. Those are easy to get, but it will take a few hours of farming.

For K/P/D epics you want the same basic gear as HoX and VoD, plus a green steel or epic weapon. It doesn't need to be fully upgraded.

ToD, epic VON6 and Epic dq2 require 500+ HP. Casters can get away with 400 but it will feel weird.

For sands epics, devil assault and Chronoscope you want an upgraded ToD ring and access to Yugoloth pots.

Lord of Blades and higher difficulty raids, bring your best!


This breakdown is for basic "I'm alive and actually hitting the boss" gear, not "I can take a main role like boss tanking or solo casting".

Raid leaders will usually let people in without "basic" gear if you send them a tell. I know I love raiding with newbies.

[Musouka]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Help!_Am_I_Raid_Ready

That's all the info you need.


That's pretty much it. This game has several class customizations, and several classes can fit certain roles. This isn't like WoW, where there pretty much is 3 classes only, and the rest for fluff.

[smeggy1384]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Help!_Am_I_Raid_Ready

That's all the info you need.



I seem to recall part of the wiki getting a virus malware or whatever a while back, rather not have to refer to that thing(Still running anti malware every day, making DDO now th eonly game that has caused me to get into something like that). Something here on these forums that isn't open to editing by just anyone would be better, not to mention harder to sabotage. How many folks can log you in and delete the post?

[Musouka]

I seem to recall part of the wiki getting a virus malware or whatever a while back, rather not have to refer to that thing(Still running anti malware every day, making DDO now th eonly game that has caused me to get into something like that). Something here on these forums that isn't open to editing by just anyone would be better, not to mention harder to sabotage. How many folks can log you in and delete the post?

They can't, because any change is flagged for the editors to actually review.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

What you're creating is not helpful. It is a conformity guideline. It says if you don't have this, don't apply for the pugs. It will be used as a benchmark, and in order to play the game everyone will have to conform to the standards set forth. Awful idea.

It will ostracize people, and actually limit pugging.

EDIT: If you want people in your group with specific gear or stats, write it in the LFM.

Ostracize pugging? I'm not telling people what gear/slot item their specific characters should have. That's beyond the scope of any guide with how varied builds are. That said, a gs hp item is universally useful and I will suggest that you have one for epics. Like I mentioned in my earlier posts, even if your specific skills may allow you to not have one, my guide suggests you SHOULD have one.

My guide will not be some kind of end all be all thing for people to strictly follow. But it will give people an idea where they lie gearwise. Aranticus's guide is fantastic but dated without the inclusion of epics where the difficulty in quests vary greatly. This guide will attempt to divide epic quests into difficulty tiers so people know, for example, a group of fresh 20s are not likely to finish eCoF without heavy resource investment.

[BadBuy]

I seem to recall part of the wiki getting a virus malware or whatever a while back, rather not have to refer to that thing(Still running anti malware every day, making DDO now th eonly game that has caused me to get into something like that). Something here on these forums that isn't open to editing by just anyone would be better, not to mention harder to sabotage. How many folks can log you in and delete the post?

Every source of information gets some occasional downtime even the official game websites.

Yes, the DDOwiki can be accessed by many, but it still remain THE most usefull resource for DDO related questions.

[Calebro]

My guide will not be some kind of end all be all thing for people to strictly follow. But it will give people an idea where they lie gearwise.

Perhaps you should reconsider attempting to write a guide until you can answer these questions for yourself rather than having to ask for help.
Just a suggestion.
I mean really, if you don't know what HP/SP/gear someone should have for any given quest/raid, then you have no business writing a guide on it.

[Musouka]

My guide will not be some kind of end all be all thing for people to strictly follow. But it will give people an idea where they lie gearwise. Aranticus's guide is fantastic but dated without the inclusion of epics where the difficulty in quests vary greatly. This guide will attempt to divide epic quests into difficulty tiers so people know, for example, a group of fresh 20s are not likely to finish eCoF without heavy resource investment.

That may not be your intention to make it end all be all, but it will turn into a guideline and a benchmark.

Also, you asked if it would be worthwhile to make this guide in your very first post. How many have said it is, and how many have said it isn't?

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Perhaps you should reconsider attempting to write a guide until you can answer these questions for yourself rather than having to ask for help.
Just a suggestion.

True. It'd be better if I could write it all out without any help but I think having other people chime in will make the guide that much better.

Musouka, if people interpret my guide as a benchmark, that is their problem. People have always created ridiculous benchmarks like link pots, link dr breakers ect. But it doesn't mean that it makes the source information at fault.

And I'm still waiting on more opinions. I'm sure this guide won't be helpful for veterans who know this info but newer players? I think it will be. One person said itd be helpful. I'll wait a little longer :)

[bigolbear]

DDO is vastly more oriented around player skill/character build than gear.

AT best any gear on caster is giving you +60% ish damage and 30% more chance of your spell landing.

On a mele its maybe 80% ish more damage.

and defence wise its +5 to saves (25% chance ish) + 20 to ac (uber low lvls, generaly irelevant high lvls for most characters) and anywhere from 60 to 200 ish hitpoints.

And thats the difference between being but naked carying a stick and having end game gear. Regular gear you will pick up along the way will narrow that margin considerably.

A typicaly/weakly geared character will have maybe 20% less damage output and 20% less defences than someone who has collected all the desired gear.

The important things gear wise in DDO in knowing what gear to use in what situations - and having an example of such. This is generaly for mele about breaking DR, or doing enough bonus damage to over come the DR penalty.

So heres my suggestions for adequate gearing:
Tempest spine: fire res item/pot. cold res item/pot. (can be replaced by caster or ship buff)

Twilight forge: heal scrolls/res scrolls. for clerics/fvs/umd. +10 skill bonus items and +3 tools for the rogue.

Vault of night: adamantine weapons for 3 meles(pillars), anti dragon weapons* for meles, fire resistance items incase buffs go down. superior potency item for casters or devotion for divines and freeze for arcanes. scrols and pots for hard/elite.

Zawabis revenge: hvy fort for any one in mele range/sheild wall. +4 con item or hp item for all. superior potency/spell type clicky for casters. Casters need a non lightning damage spell of 5th lvl or higher. bonus to reflex saves and spear/axe block desireable. good aligned/cold iron weapon for ranged charactrers.

Reavers fate: anti elemental weapon for all meles/archers. mithril weapon for 'tank' if tanking traditionaly. hvy fort and typical stat items for lvl 14 chars. potency item for casters.

Shroud: 'boss beater anti devil weapons' for all meles potency items for casters, scrols and pots for hard/elite. + typical lvl 16 gear including +6 stat items and hvy fort.

Hox: solid fog clicky (5+ charges) or 60+ intimidate for tank. more for hard/elite. anti demon/aberation weapons for meles. + the usual typical gear. and FF item.

VOD: same as shroud. FF item.

Ascention chamber: anti undead weapon, budgeoning unless your a kensai. jump pots/haste pots/30% striders FF item.

TOD: 60+initmidate and AC for tank, 500+hp for tank. 34+ fort save for tank. OR high threat/damage and 700+ hp for tank. every one else standard gear for lvl 20's (hvy fort, +6 stat items, superior potency etc)

Epics: standard llv 20 gear, nothing special is needed to do epics - high casting DC's and mele tactics DC make life easier.

ok so ive talked about Anti 'enemy' weapons.
Dragon: velah is evil and a red dragon. so your looking at holy damage, dragon banes and frost weapons.

Devil: Devils DR is bypassed by good and silver weapons. such as a metaline pure good or a holy silver weapon. on normal the raid bosses have 15 DR so a +5 holy weapon of greater evil outsider bane would do more damage than a +1 silver of pure good. Its important to bypass DR on hard/elite.

Demon: demons DR is bypassed by good and cold iron. but the end game demons dont have much in the way of DR except for demon queen on epic.

Undead: disruption, holy, undead bane are all good.


I hope this was helpful to you, in short if you want to go raiding id recomend you grab your self:
MELE:
1. boss beaters apropriate to raid.
2. hvy fort, +6 stat items and greater false life.
3. resistance +5 item.
4. heavy gear investment if you are the tank, including intimidate item, AC and DR items, threat gen.(i dont specialise in tanks so ask around about this)

CASTER:
1. superior potency 6 item, and/or spell potency clickies.
2. hvy fort and +6 stat items and greater false life.
3. 'spell focus' and 'spell penetration' items.
4. dont use summons until you KNOW the raid. summons can sometimes break raids or make life dificult.
5. stack of mana pots just incase, selection of useful scrolls including stack of heal scrols for divines/umd.

[gott_ist_tot]

Tnie can't (and won't) be a benchmark due to a side of DDO I rather enjoy. Because how are you going to tell exactly what given character has slotted as his sovereign rune?

A guide is needed, for the other facet of DDO is ability to solo all the way up to 20, and count of clueless TRs is beyond measure. Just a guideline to follow, sor of "what to do not to be a hindrance to your party in given quest" I'd find a useful addition.

The problem is, turbulences start early. For example, until raids it's pretty easy to do almost any quest without a dedicated healer. From self-centered point of view, first pack f2ps usually buy is vale/shroud. From "let's not hinder the party" pov, I'd suggest getting Tangleroot - 'Info is key' elite and Tangleroot hard is just enough P favor for buffs. Plus you get the Visors, which allow you not to die every other moment while getting your ore for the heavy fort thingie in house K. More and more LFMs being elite for the streak, mobs will try instakills whenever they can.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

DDO is vastly more oriented around player skill/character build than gear.

I agree. For the most part because all the gear in the world will NOT make a player automatically "uber". Like you mentioned, knowing when to switch weapons (provided you have the different weapons in the first place) is critical for melee and spellcasters need to know what spells they should bring and when and where they should be using the spells.

And character build means a lot to a character's capability too. A 400 HP rogue may be able to tank Elite Horoth but certainly is not the ideal for this role.

Since there's no possibility of outlining every build, I WILL divide ALL builds into several categories.
"Tank" - Character that attempts to have as much aggro as possible through hate or intimidate
"DPS" - Characters that attempt to do as much damage as possible (may include spellcasters but is designed mostly for melee)
"CC" - While this mostly pertains to spellcasters, also can include melee builds with very high tactics values like trip, stunning blow, and stunning fist (Among other things like monk finishers).
"Heal" - The ability to keep characters alive and well. Since the ability to heal well is mainly dependent on skill, it will most likely not be covered in depth like the other categories. SP is the limiting factor for healing and skill dictates the ability to conserve mana. Better healers are more efficient heal/sp.
"Trapper" - The ability to remove traps. Also not going to be covered as in depth.
Every build in the game can fall under one of these categories (or multiple!). Let me know if I'm missing anything here.

Thank you all for your contributions. I've seen recent threads about "What Epics should I be doing" and the like, I think such a guide WILL be helpful. But again, I will keep taking suggestions and more dissenting opinions. :)

edit: Didn't see that you edited your post Calebro, so I'll address it now.

If I am to write a guide, I'd like to not just use my own opinion, but the opinion of others and gauge what the popular belief is. Minimum HP and SP for quests can vary with many different factors dependent on skill and gear anyways. For example, a Concordant opposition item or two plus a torc can greatly extend SP. Combined with a bauble and an epic ring of spell storing, SP is stretched even FURTHER.

Like I said, my opinions are based off gear that I personally have and the skills that I have. This is why more opinions will really help. People have different opinions about what they consider to be a base minimum for their characters based off their own skills and experience. This guide will try to generalize what is gauged by the community as a whole.

Also, is it so wrong that I'm trying to get initiative in writing such a guide to be helpful to the community at large? Better than pestering someone to write a new guide :D

[icekinslayer]

Great Idea to have a baseline for players before they join raids/quests.

Like you said, it's not what they 'Should/Must' have, but it gives them an idea of what's possible. Like having your hp/sp shown to everyone in the group, it shows the new peoples what's possible.

Great idea OP, don't listen to the haters. 8)

[Calebro]

Great Idea to have a baseline for players before they join raids/quests.

Like you said, it's not what they 'Should/Must' have, but it gives them an idea of what's possible. Like having your hp/sp shown to everyone in the group, it shows the new peoples what's possible.

Great idea OP, don't listen to the haters. 8)

I'm not hating on the idea. But if he needs to ask us what we think the figures should be, then is he really the one that should be writing a guide for it?
I don't know how to rebuild the engine for a 57 Chevy. But I do know how to change the oil and replace the brake pads. But even with that knowledge, if I ask people that do know how to rebuild the engine it doesn't make me qualified to try to teach others how to do it.

If he needs help writing a guide, then he shouldn't be writing that guide at all. That's all I'm saying.
Who knows? Maybe it will be a stellar work when finished, but it doesn't seem to be getting off on the right foot to me.

[Kmnh]

Since there's no possibility of outlining every build, I WILL divide ALL builds into several categories.
"Tank" - Character that attempts to have as much aggro as possible through hate or intimidate
"DPS" - Characters that attempt to do as much damage as possible (may include spellcasters but is designed mostly for melee)
"CC" - While this mostly pertains to spellcasters, also can include melee builds with very high tactics values like trip, stunning blow, and stunning fist (Among other things like monk finishers).
"Heal" - The ability to keep characters alive and well. Since the ability to heal well is mainly dependent on skill, it will most likely not be covered in depth like the other categories. SP is the limiting factor for healing and skill dictates the ability to conserve mana. Better healers are more efficient heal/sp.
"Trapper" - The ability to remove traps. Also not going to be covered as in depth.
Every build in the game can fall under one of these categories (or multiple!). Let me know if I'm missing anything here.



This is where you got it all wrong.

This game isn't played in a way where people split up and do different things.

The whole party is responsible for aggro management, positioning and healing. Tossing a heal scroll or curse pot on the tank when the boss does a special move may be the difference between a wipe and a clean completion. Same goes for fighting inside the disco ball/web, or keeping the enemy caster facing away from the party

[gloopygloop]

Also, is it so wrong that I'm trying to get initiative in writing such a guide to be helpful to the community at large? Better than pestering someone to write a new guide :D

I do think that it's a good ambition, but I don't think that it will be a very big guide.

There are some "good to have" items for all characters
-more HP
-Heavy Fortification
-anything that increases To Hit (melee) or spell DC (offensive casters)

There are some specific weapons that bypass the fortification on raid bosses
Good (Holy, Holy Burst, Pure Good, Righteousness and Flametouched Iron) to bypass the DR on lots of evil outsider trash
Good + Silver to bypass the DR on Pit Fiends (Harry, Sully, Horoth)
Good + Cold Iron to bypass the DR on Mariliths (Against the Demon Queen)
Good + Adamantine to bypass the DR on the Lord of Blades.

Other than that, there isn't really any required gear. And even the DR bypassing weapons can be skipped if you have a weapon that does enough "extra" damage to make up for the fact that it doesn't bypass DR (LitII weapons don't bypass Pit Fiend DR, but they do enough extra damage above what a MinII weapon does that it doesn't matter on Normal).

[Memek]

Gear score doesnt work because lower level stuff is often better than the shiniest purple toy; Gearing is also build related and in weaponry highly situational; Finally, the DPS a character can put out depends at least as much on build than on gear.

Lets see:

17-fresh level 20 characters [Tier 0//Adventurer]
-----+6 stat items, 1-2 Tier 2 GS items, some raid loot that may or may not be best in slot
----- These characters should have no problem contributing to Shroud, HoX, and VoD on normal (Note: TRs under 20 may qualify for Tier 1 gearing)
2 GS items? Those dont belong here because
-to wear 2 items you would need to run 20 Shrouds which means that you can already craft a tier 3
-and tier 2 GS weapons are trash.

A random loot gen weapon or a Cannith crafted one will be superior to the tier 2 Shroud weapons so already your gear score breaks down and only leads to sub-optimal DPS/gameplay.
Furthermore, a high DPS build can already contribute in every epic quest and given a nice Bane and yugo pots to close the HP gap, in the epic raids. I certainly did with my first life Kensai.


Moderate geared level 20s [Tier 1//Champion]
-----Randomly generated gear is kept to a minimum, +6 items, 3-4 Tier 2~3 GS items (at least 1 of which are fully upgraded), valuable raid loot acquired (Chattering Ring for AC builds, Madstone Boots, Tharne's Goggles, Head of Good Fortune, Litany of the Dead ect.), Event epic gear, DR breakers, MAYBE an epic item
-----This is probably where most players are. These characters are well prepared for easier epics such as EBOB and ECarnival and can contribute.
Again with the flood of Shroud items... Where would you put all those items, and what are they supposed to do?
Displacement clickies are nice but i somehow doubt you mean those...
Chattering Ring, what for?
HoGF, rofl.
Litany, super rare.
Tharne's, best in slot for the most part, yes. But to request Tharne's before doing easy epics just deserves a lol.

Most importantly:
DR breakers are the bread and butter of a melee and putting them into the second gear tiering just shows a confusion of priorities.

Rule 1 for a melee: 100% fort.
Rule 2 for a melee: Break DR; Or in some rare (!) cases, have a top tier weapon that is even better than a DR breaker.


Well geared level 20s [Tier 2//Hero]
-----No randomly generated gear, +6 items but +7 items can be expected, 3-5 Tier 3 GS items (perhaps a couple tier 2 for niche swaps), several epic items, many best in slot items
-----These characters can be expected to be well worth their slot in any quest in the game. Harder epics such as EChrono, ECoF, EDA are well within the grasp of these Tier 2 characters.
Requesting +7 stat items and 100 completed Shrouds (5 tier 3) (not to mention that you cant slot them) before doing eDA is where this becomes pure lunacy.

[Maugrim101]

I think it's a good idea. People who want to be as prepared as they can will have a resource to use (At least those that read forums).

I guess the main thing to keep in mind is to keep reminding everyone it's a GUIDE. A lot of people begin to stroke out when suggesting how they could maybe improve their character (Either by gear or playstlye) so presentation is probably going to be just as important as the information provided.

If the guide is structured in a constructive and helpful way, it will probably gain a good repuatation and have people in game send others to it when asked questions by newer players about what is expected from first time raiders.

I'd agree with one of the above posters, that it's probably best to keep the info fairly basic. It's usually better to have someone remember a few important details than swamp them with a ton of info and they only remember a little.

[My2Cents]

Op, I think your intentions are very well placed, but I fear that, although I would have phased it differently, the below is true. In addition, DDO provides much more character customization and flexibility for player skill, style and experience - one of the reasons I left WoW a long time ago was to avoid that "cookie-cutter" approach. We have that bad enough with MyDDO now. "Oh you don't have a shield of X and X? Well, you can't run with us." Even with DDO's flexibility we get too much of that now, in my opinion. No matter how well intentioned your guide may be, I fear it will be misused too often.

In fact in this thread alone I have seen people express some "must have" items which frankly I never had and got along pretty well without. While I have no doubt they'd be a big help at certain times, I want to stay away from the "must-have" kind of thinking because it soon turns into "must-have-to-be-viable-and-be-allowed-in-my-group." I prefer "very useful", "very handy", even "invaluable", but not MUST.

I hope DDO stays as much a matter of opinion as the game mechanics allow, and I hope the game mechanics allow as much flexibility and ingenuity as possible.


It is a conformity guideline. It says if you don't have this, don't apply for the pugs. It will be used as a benchmark, and in order to play the game everyone will have to conform to the standards set forth. Awful idea.

It will ostracize people, and actually limit pugging.

EDIT: If you want people in your group with specific gear or stats, write it in the LFM.

[Vanquishedfo]

Yikes!
I mention WoW and it all falls to pieces.

I think gear checking IS pertinent to DDO and even more so with the release of U11. And yes, gear checking is not the same as it is in DDO and WoW since DDO is more forgiving for people with worse gear.

That said.

DDO's endgame content is becoming more and more difficult. This means that the gap between fresh level 20s and geared level 20s is also widening and this is part of the reason we see posts about how people need to be properly prepared for certain endgame content.

This is why I think a guide like this is helpful.

Again, this guide will provide what is considered "base line" as far as gear goes. It simply is a suggestion for what is expected gear wise to competently aid a party through a quest/raid/instance.

DDOWiki is awesome but doesn't have an article about how long gear is useful when leveling and does not rate how difficult some endgame quests are to other endgame quests. This is part of the reason I want to create a guide like this.

what you point out doesnt help your point but hurt it. The fact is End Game here in DDO is a FAILURE as it only attracts a very small minority of the player base. meaning every time they invest dev time into new content for that spectrum it ****es off a HUGE portion of the casual play for fun population. Gear Tiers are actually seen as one of the great self destruct flaws built into WoW.

Many of the gamers I know in RL and in game used to play wow up to the first lvl cap increase. When the blatant fact of how stupid it is to make a gear centric system slapped them in the face as new lvl 61 common vendor trash made thier strongest years of grinding to get uber lvl 60 weapons into a joke. DDO actually suffers from this in a less obvious but much more pervasive way due to how our lvl cap increased up 2 lvls at a time, while at launch there where weapons dropping for lvl 10s that any PnP lvl 20 paladin would rape and murder his entire order for.

So instead of them doing the smart thing and increasing the min lvl req on blatantly powerful items they kept adding new monty haul level loot. And then came green steel. Items to this day most recognize as really being meant for an end game level of power, now able to be gained by the early teens. Which where end game once but not now. Now we have stupid epic gear, and everytime they release more so called end game content I choose to spend less as I know its going from a game about fun to a mindless cash grab to leech off the mindless sheople.

Ofcourse DDO is dead in 2014 period so I guess at this point any design directed towards creating a stable long term MMO has gone out the window in the name of making a quick buck.

[Barhai]

Okay. I think I will add in some stuff for lower level characters after all. I think it'll be better for it to be more generic as from levels 1-15 are not so gear intensive. Will contain content about things such as +X stat items, Fortification, Potions every character SHOULD have, and ect. IMO, most people can expect to get to 17 without a problem without any named items.

Also, I think for end game content, I'm going to NOT do things based on level first, gear second like I have it in the OP. I think its preferable to simply divide gear checking into three or maybe four "Tiers"

17-fresh level 20 characters [Tier 0//Adventurer]
-----+6 stat items, 1-2 Tier 2 GS items, some raid loot that may or may not be best in slot
----- These characters should have no problem contributing to Shroud, HoX, and VoD on normal (Note: TRs under 20 may qualify for Tier 1 gearing)

Moderate geared level 20s [Tier 1//Champion]
-----Randomly generated gear is kept to a minimum, +6 items, 3-4 Tier 2~3 GS items (at least 1 of which are fully upgraded), valuable raid loot acquired (Chattering Ring for AC builds, Madstone Boots, Tharne's Goggles, Head of Good Fortune, Litany of the Dead ect.), Event epic gear, DR breakers, MAYBE an epic item
-----This is probably where most players are. These characters are well prepared for easier epics such as EBOB and ECarnival and can contribute.

Well geared level 20s [Tier 2//Hero]
-----No randomly generated gear, +6 items but +7 items can be expected, 3-5 Tier 3 GS items (perhaps a couple tier 2 for niche swaps), several epic items, many best in slot items
-----These characters can be expected to be well worth their slot in any quest in the game. Harder epics such as EChrono, ECoF, EDA are well within the grasp of these Tier 2 characters.

Top tier, elite geared level 20s [Tier 3//Legend]
-----Characters in this tier may not have any items they want anymore. The goal here is to dominate the existing raids and to trivialize game content. These characters are the kind who might say something like "ESoS? Hah! I use those as my throwing daggers!"
-----This tier is really a character at their peak. Not much to say about this really.

I will post a draft when I have time. Thanks for the input all! This guide should really help a lot of people out especially with more and more players with capped characters and the content becoming less and less forgiving!
3-5 gs items?
Why? No seriously,why? HP items and that's it if you melee. And a conc-op item if you're a caster. A GS weapon if you don't have better and aren't a caster (really, casters can use much better stuff than GS)= 2 items
And seriously on medium epic you should bring better.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Alright!
I like coming back here and reading all the responses. I urge anyone who's reading the thread to post their thoughts. If the thread gets long enough, I will start updating the OP/2ndP about things that are being discussed so that new people reading can get an idea of what's being argued. I'll try to respond to everything as well :)

@IceKinSlayer Thanks bud :) I also plan on taking information from many of the builds in the forum to get a better sense of expected hp/sp and maybe get some statistical data. Time consuming, but very worthwhile in my eyes.

@Calebro I understand where you're coming from. But engineers do this kind of thing a lot. I may not be an expert on the powertrain but I know my stuff about the chassis and aerodynamics of the car. So I'll ask someone else who has experience with the powertrain to help me design parts that I am not confident in making on my own. With other engineers who help "fill in the blanks", a car is designed. I definitely am NOT a DDO endgame encyclopedia but I do know enough about endgame that I could use the opinions of others to fill in the blanks in the guide. If that makes sense :D


This is where you got it all wrong.

This game isn't played in a way where people split up and do different things.

The whole party is responsible for aggro management, positioning and healing. Tossing a heal scroll or curse pot on the tank when the boss does a special move may be the difference between a wipe and a clean completion. Same goes for fighting inside the disco ball/web, or keeping the enemy caster facing away from the party

Well to be honest, I was at first skeptical at the inclusion of the "roles". Most content in the game does not require a main tank and ect. Most content in the game doesn't even really REQUIRE any more than one of these "roles" as seen with all divine elite shrouds or even all barbarian shrouds. But in content such as VoD, ToD, LoB, and ect, having a main tank makes a world of difference. But I think the examples you mentioned are much more skill based material that I assume that people (should) do anyways.

I'm trying for the guide to assume that these kind of "reactionary" skills are in place already for the sake of simplicity. As I mentioned in another post, all the gear in the world won't save someone with a healing curse who refuses to drink a curse pot.

@Gloopygloop Its possible since this guide really is meant to give people ideas about gear that generally everyone should have. I want to add more statistical data such as "average" hp and sp one can expect to have at the different tiers of the game. And since each class have varying items that are useful to particular groupings of classes, it might turn out longer than you and I might expect.

@Memek, I think GS tier II weapons are not as bad as you think for a first life character as their standard DPS weapon. Bane weapons certainly do their job for the weapons they are meant to be used for, but having a standard weapon for most mobs is nice. Also I make multiple shroud items in the same spot and can be used as gear swaps for different scenarios. Displacement clickies, extra elemental resists, raise dead, ect. Perhaps having 3-5 tier III GS items is on the high side but I don't think it's something that lots of geared veterans won't have.

I also like using shroud items as my base as the Vale of Twilight is a pack that most people have and, for the longest time, had the best gear around. While best is subjective, the Shroud really provides a true variety of different item effects that are very useful at any stage of the game.

@My2Cents, I understand your fear. I actually consider myself more of a casual player than hardcore as I prefer to play more characters at lower levels than the few characters I've actually capped...but I want to make clear that this is more of a gear suggestion guide than it is a true WoW gear check where it is REQUIRED to have certain level of gear as mentioned by an earlier post. MANY people including myself have run epics with characters that are certainly undergeared to what gear I've suggested having already; however, that said, a GS HP item or a con op item or both can make epics much more feasible to every character so I SUGGEST having them. Certainly some people can get by with 200 hp wizards and farm the hell out of eADQ. Better skills means they can get by without meeting these deliberately high standards.

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

3-5 gs items?
Why? No seriously,why? HP items and that's it if you melee. And a conc-op item if you're a caster. A GS weapon if you don't have better and aren't a caster (really, casters can use much better stuff than GS)= 2 items
And seriously on medium epic you should bring better.

MOAR GS ITEMS!
No seriously, if you're melee, the GS items that you COULD use are...
HP Item
Lit II
Rad II (if sneak attacking is needed)
Triple Pos (undead beating/Abbot)
Extra elemental resists
GS raise dead clicky
Displacement clicky

These items are quite useful and no, they don't all need to be cleansed. Weapons certainly don't and your "gear swap" slot won't ever have to be cleansed.

[Vint]

EDIT: If you want people in your group with specific gear or stats, write it in the LFM.

Are you being serious? Your server has people being honest when they join an LFM? I don't know how many times I have put up an LFM that said "wiz king-Be able to solo a tower". Pugger joins, comes in quest and says, whats a tower? I see this as no different than telling them they need specific gear or stats. These either illiterate or just stupid people drive me nuts.

I dont care if your hardcore, vet, newb, casual or whatever title someone wants to give ya, Don't join an LFM that has specific instructions or requirements you dont meet. That is rule #2. Rule #1 is never, and I mean never trust a pugger.

[Memek]

@Memek, I think GS tier II weapons are not as bad as you think for a first life character as their standard DPS weapon.
Against everything that matters, yes, they are.
And against stuff that doesnt matter i couldnt care less if someone uses a Min1 or a Holy of Pure Good. Except that the guy with the Min1 will probably use it against the boss too and not break DR...


Also I make multiple shroud items in the same spot and can be used as gear swaps for different scenarios.
You still need the Larges and a dual shard item takes about 20 runs to gather the ingredients. Sure, you could farm them in eDA, but oh wait, you first need to have 5 tier 3 items rotting in your bank before you can join that quest.


Displacement clickies
What do Displacement clickies have to do with raids?


Overall, if you want to tell people that they need 5 Tier 3 Shroud items and need to be fully epic equipped to do eDA, you are either
-trying to create a false elitism to make inexperienced players believe you need god-know-what as equipment; In other words, lying; The motivation i dare not guess but i suppose it has something to do with the Epic description of "for the best of the best" and a desire that this were actually true, or
-you really believe it and are just THAT bad at the game.

In this regard im leaving this thread now because it gets tiresome to nitpick your inane gear requirements.

[protokon]

Are you being serious? Your server has people being honest when they join an LFM? I don't know how many times I have put up an LFM that said "wiz king-Be able to solo a tower". Pugger joins, comes in quest and says, whats a tower? I see this as no different than telling them they need specific gear or stats. These either illiterate or just stupid people drive me nuts.

I dont care if your hardcore, vet, newb, casual or whatever title someone wants to give ya, Don't join an LFM that has specific instructions or requirements you dont meet. That is rule #2. Rule #1 is never, and I mean never trust a pugger.

I absolutely DREAD doing wiz king pugs anymore - hopefully I get lucky this life on my wiz and someone else puts a group up, instead of me soloing the quest for 8 hours straight while people come in, *ding* on an archer because they got feared trying to follow me, res out and make a whiny comment before I dismiss them.

[testing1234]

DDO basically always use +1 +2 and so on or maybe d6 and so on

other MMO use +300% increse damage or -120% damage taken

there are a few exceptions (a lvl8 paralyser or torc in few quests) to but to a large degree this is true

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Against everything that matters, yes, they are.
And against stuff that doesnt matter i couldnt care less if someone uses a Min1 or a Holy of Pure Good. Except that the guy with the Min1 will probably use it against the boss too and not break DR...


You still need the Larges and a dual shard item takes about 20 runs to gather the ingredients. Sure, you could farm them in eDA, but oh wait, you first need to have 5 tier 3 items rotting in your bank before you can join that quest.


What do Displacement clickies have to do with raids?


Overall, if you want to tell people that they need 5 Tier 3 Shroud items and need to be fully epic equipped to do eDA, you are either
-trying to create a false elitism to make inexperienced players believe you need god-know-what as equipment; In other words, lying; The motivation i dare not guess but i suppose it has something to do with the Epic description of "for the best of the best" and a desire that this were actually true, or
-you really believe it and are just THAT bad at the game.

In this regard im leaving this thread now because it gets tiresome to nitpick your inane gear requirements.

As said many times previously, these are outlines for gear you should have and not something you NEED to possess to finish X quest. If you don't have these things and are doing fine, then good for you. I understand that 3-5 gs items is a grind to get (especially if those are all dual shard items). But you know, having a Lit II weapon (or 2 if dual wielding) and a HP item is already 3 Tier 3 GS items! Furthermore, many people now use Min II accessories and slot toughness in an epic item so you can free a slot at the helm. Guard items are also great for many characters. While 3-5 GS Tier 3 items are a grind, they ARE worth it for many builds.

I hope you do leave this thread since you really haven't contributed at all but pick at my motivations for trying to create a helpful guide for the community. :)

@Testing1234 I'd disagree that equipment differences net a total increase of +1, +2, d6 ect. There really is a stark difference to having an epic marilith chain or RDS armor as opposed to any DT armor you could make. Or having holy burst khopeshes of pure good vs Lit IIs and so forth. Even spellcasters, having an eardweller is quite a significant increase in spell damage output.