We need more good players.

[Unreliable]

No I am not talking about a server merge, that would just mix more noobs in with us, making things more complicated and in a way... much worse.

I am talking about more ''good'' players. People who can competantly run eChrono, eVon6, eDQ and actually bring a strong contribution to the grooup. Dont get me wrong - I am not arguing with the challenge level of the raids, because if anything for the level of loot you get get they are in the right challenge area, if anything, still too easy - I am just getting very tired of having to wait for the same 30-40 ''good'' players to log on so we can run an eChrono. It seems when none of the ''good'' players are on, it is very difficult to get a competant group up.

I do not know the exact solution to this problem, the DDO community is too small to really have some sort of server filter or anything along those lines - but I am wondering if anyone else has suggestions? I know being in an active guild is one idea, but I like to be able to log on and run whatever raid I want... That way I do not feel constricted to any sort of time schedule.

Anyway, I am going to leave the debating to the Sarlonites - anyone have any other suggestions? How we can rally up some more ''good'' people? (Also please keep any jokes and BS out of this thread, thanks)

[slothinator]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.

My first VOD, I was verbally accosted for 5 minutes by someone in the group who couldn't believe I was a level 20 and had never run VOD. When I said I also had not run HOX, he practically came unglued. I received similar reactions my first times on Titan and eChrono.

Thing is, I want to run these quests and raids. I like challenges, and I really like loot. I also understand someone that is running VOD for the 40th time is tired of explaining it. However, you cannot complain (by you, I do not mean you Unreliable, I mean 'you' in the general sense) that newbs are ruining your raids if you are not willing to take one aside and teach them the ropes. Having my toon or my experience insulted makes me (and I'm sure others) not want to try again.

So my suggestion is teach the newbs. Take us under your wings and into your guild runs, and make us better players. Explain what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you MyDDO one of my toons and decide I do not make the grade for your group, please tell me why. If you want a better player pool to pull from, you have be willing to make the newbs better players.

[Unreliable]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.

My first VOD, I was verbally accosted for 5 minutes by someone in the group who couldn't believe I was a level 20 and had never run VOD. When I said I also had not run HOX, he practically came unglued. I received similar reactions my first times on Titan and eChrono.

Thing is, I want to run these quests and raids. I like challenges, and I really like loot. I also understand someone that is running VOD for the 40th time is tired of explaining it. However, you cannot complain (by you, I do not mean you Unreliable, I mean 'you' in the general sense) that newbs are ruining your raids if you are not willing to take one aside and teach them the ropes. Having my toon or my experience insulted makes me (and I'm sure others) not want to try again.

So my suggestion is teach the newbs. Take us under your wings and into your guild runs, and make us better players. Explain what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you MyDDO one of my toons and decide I do not make the grade for your group, please tell me why. If you want a better player pool to pull from, you have be willing to make the newbs better players.

Make sure that before you run epics or any of the difficult raids you have EVERY piece of raid gear loot that you need so then when you do join, you are able to contibute and not just pike.

I think this is the big problem, is that people join these high level raids with things like ogre power +3 ring of listen +7 and expect to be taken seriously in the group as a contributing member.

Go make your shroud weapons, a shroud accessory, get the best possible random gen gear you can after that, run some easy epics like house P... get all the good gear you need before you start running eChrono, eVoN, and eDQ.

[Jakarr]

Your "Good" players are people who have played for years and have 2+ Shroud Gear along with Shroud Weapons and Raid loot.

Reason why there aren't that many "good" people is b/c many vets take and break and come back or TR because the end game is a little repetitive.

SO point being "good" players need shroud items+ Raid loot, to get this loot you have to do raids that you can only do every 3 days, it gets boring when you have to do this for about 60 days to get all you need.....


Lessen the Cooldown on Raid Timers=More "Good" players

[NaturalHazard]

Your "Good" players are people who have played for years and have 2+ Shroud Gear along with Shroud Weapons and Raid loot.

Reason why there aren't that many "good" people is b/c many vets take and break and come back or TR because the end game is a little repetitive.

SO point being "good" players need shroud items+ Raid loot, to get this loot you have to do raids that you can only do every 3 days, it gets boring when you have to do this for about 60 days to get all you need.....


Lessen the Cooldown on Raid Timers=More "Good" players

I see the logic in this ;).

[heyytoi]

Haha, sarlona..

Please go on

(also what you're asking for is impossible.. You want newb to get all the raid gear but you don't accept them in your runs.. do you see where im getting?)

[MyHumps]

You're asking for too much of Sarlona.

[MyHumps]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.

My first VOD, I was verbally accosted for 5 minutes by someone in the group who couldn't believe I was a level 20 and had never run VOD. When I said I also had not run HOX, he practically came unglued. I received similar reactions my first times on Titan and eChrono.

Thing is, I want to run these quests and raids. I like challenges, and I really like loot. I also understand someone that is running VOD for the 40th time is tired of explaining it. However, you cannot complain (by you, I do not mean you Unreliable, I mean 'you' in the general sense) that newbs are ruining your raids if you are not willing to take one aside and teach them the ropes. Having my toon or my experience insulted makes me (and I'm sure others) not want to try again.

So my suggestion is teach the newbs. Take us under your wings and into your guild runs, and make us better players. Explain what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you MyDDO one of my toons and decide I do not make the grade for your group, please tell me why. If you want a better player pool to pull from, you have be willing to make the newbs better players.

Anyone who verbally accosts you for not running vod before is an idiot. They're not good, and they're certainly no vet. Just put them on the squelch list and never run with them again.

[LolWutRoflstomped]

Anyone who verbally accosts you for not running vod before is an idiot. They're not good, and they're certainly no vet. Just put them on the squelch list and never run with them again.

You're not in Natural 20 and don't play on Sarlona. Why are you in Sarlona forums with Natural 20 your bio?

[Roaringdragon]

You're not in Natural 20 and don't play on Sarlona. Why are you in Sarlona forums with Natural 20 your bio?

Then again Heytoi above plays on TheLanis :P

[Galeria]

You know, the only person I've seen offering to actually build up new players (not just private runs for guildies) on Sarlona is Witchy. She ran several VoN5 and VoN6's where anyone was allowed to join and she walked people through every part of the raid.

I joined because I've been rushed through there so many times without knowing what the heck people were talking about. Sure, I know my job but I never really knew what else was going on in other places.

If you are going to whine about people not being good enough, teach them. A newb with greensteel is still a newb. Who knows how to run Shroud. Maybe.

Telling people to grind more gear before they join your runs to grind more gear isn't much of an answer.

Checking their gear on MyDDO doesn't ensure you've found a good player. It means you've found a player who can repeat some of the lower tier raids.

[slothinator]

Make sure that before you run epics or any of the difficult raids you have EVERY piece of raid gear loot that you need so then when you do join, you are able to contibute and not just pike.

I think this is the big problem, is that people join these high level raids with things like ogre power +3 ring of listen +7 and expect to be taken seriously in the group as a contributing member.

Go make your shroud weapons, a shroud accessory, get the best possible random gen gear you can after that, run some easy epics like house P... get all the good gear you need before you start running eChrono, eVoN, and eDQ.

My main, Stethos is decked out pretty well; all +6/+7 stat items, GS cloak and bracers, Lit2 khopesh, 580 hp, etc. and so on. I have run some epics (phiarlan, fens, sentinels, chrono) and done well, so it's not a question of confidence in my character. It's the attitude I get when I say it's my first time in a raid or an epic. I have been able to move past it and get some stuff done, but what about those who cannot. I do not think someone who is really shy or sensitive, or has a poor grasp of English, is going to be willing to submit themselves to ridicule over some quests.

I get where you are coming from. For me, nothing is worse than bringing a Sorc into a Shroud party or a Reaver's quest and seeing them dual wielding longswords or wearing heavy armor (oh my lord, how did you level to 17; does my focus orb really say you are wearing the anger's step set?). All I am saying is that when these situations arise, try and explain to the player where they need help. I realize not every player will take it well and some get really offended, but there is probably no helping that player anyway. The ones that do take the advice - they go on to be better players.

[slothinator]

Anyone who verbally accosts you for not running vod before is an idiot. They're not good, and they're certainly no vet. Just put them on the squelch list and never run with them again.

That was about a year ago, and I have not run with that player since. I purposely avoid his LFMs. I have had the misfortune of being in parties where he joined after me, but have not had any issues. I am sure he has been a d-bag to so many players by now that there is no way he can keep track of all of them.

[MyHumps]

you're Not In Natural 20 And Don't Play On Sarlona. Why Are You In Sarlona Forums With Natural 20 Your Bio?

Is This What Happens When I Take An Extended Afk? Rofl.

[QuantumFX]

OK, I will admit that I haven’t bothered raiding since U11 went live. However, the problem I saw pre-U11 in PuGs of stuff like Chronoscope/ToD/DQ was a lack of genuine leadership*.

I’ve seen eChronos fail on the short run from the tavern to the bank. Why? Because 12 different people have 12 different ideas on how we are going to get there. Then the group get's split up or drug into a quagmire because the party starts arguing about it *after* the fight has begun. A leader would have told us if we were invising and running to the bank or killing as we go and taking *this* route.

I’ve seen eChronos fail in the bank because 2-3 members of the party are beating down one of the armorers while a bunch of tards are trying to beat on Bloodplate. (With bonus tard points going to the jackhole who has no clue what flanking is, or why they should be doing it.) A leader would have made sure that only 1 person had Bloodplate tanking duty and everyone else was beating down armorers.

I’ve seen eChronos fail at the end fight because half the group thinks that it’s their job to pick out the trash mob to kill first. A leader would have already established this job. Be it the Shintao monk painting the target with fists of light and stunning fist. Or, the fighter with the destruction weapon.

I see more care and consideration go into planning Abbot and Titan raids. As a result, I don’t see PuG failures in these raids. (And the few failures I see boil down to dumb luck.) When I start hearing job assignments being handed out I know the chances of a successful run have just tripled. When all I get from the party leader is absolute silence, I know we’re in trouble. I wish more leaders would treat some of these raids more like the Abbot than the Shroud.

*Also, just in case somebody feels the need to try and twist this post: Good leadership doesn’t always result in a first time completion. It does tend to lead to groups sticking together through a setback.

[protokon]

Fairly basic to get this going: Run a few raid workshops.
Set up a weekly raid workshop (maybe once every sunday?) and have volunteers rotate so you don't have to do it every week, on teaching a group the mechanics of the raid, then the mechanics of the raid on epic difficulty. Every raid as is has a basic strategy that, when you stick to, will lead to minimal complications and/or failures. Try recruiting people through the forums or advertise in game the forum post while doing your regular shroud runs.

"Interested in learning epic raids? want to know what it takes to make that uber epic sword of shadow or epic abishai set! then check this thread out! <insert forum thread link>" Sounds cheesy, but it might work better than you think.

There were a few great raid leaders that would regularly bring newbies into the odd raids and got a very healthy raiding population going on Thelanis. I try to do my part from time to time and help people learn how to lead them, but the server does well enough on its own.

very basic things to go over:
-optimal party makeup
-optimal tank
-optimal crowd controlling
-how to handle common fumbles (like the tank dieing in epic chrono, or a base wiping in epic velah, ect..)

If you teach them nerds will learn.

[Unreliable]

My main, Stethos is decked out pretty well; all +6/+7 stat items, GS cloak and bracers, Lit2 khopesh, 580 hp, etc. and so on. I have run some epics (phiarlan, fens, sentinels, chrono) and done well, so it's not a question of confidence in my character. It's the attitude I get when I say it's my first time in a raid or an epic. I have been able to move past it and get some stuff done, but what about those who cannot. I do not think someone who is really shy or sensitive, or has a poor grasp of English, is going to be willing to submit themselves to ridicule over some quests.

I get where you are coming from. For me, nothing is worse than bringing a Sorc into a Shroud party or a Reaver's quest and seeing them dual wielding longswords or wearing heavy armor (oh my lord, how did you level to 17; does my focus orb really say you are wearing the anger's step set?). All I am saying is that when these situations arise, try and explain to the player where they need help. I realize not every player will take it well and some get really offended, but there is probably no helping that player anyway. The ones that do take the advice - they go on to be better players.

You should be fine then...

Just be more assertive and tell people you have done everything up to the point you can to run the higher end epics.


My problem is with people who are either just new to 20 or spend their time not gearing up asking to join eChronos, eVoNs, and eDQ's.

If you are as geared as you say you are, I would let you in my group no prob.

[Unreliable]

Is This What Happens When I Take An Extended Afk? Rofl.

Leave the drama out of this thread thanks.

[Unreliable]

Fairly basic to get this going: Run a few raid workshops.
Set up a weekly raid workshop (maybe once every sunday?) and have volunteers rotate so you don't have to do it every week, on teaching a group the mechanics of the raid, then the mechanics of the raid on epic difficulty. Every raid as is has a basic strategy that, when you stick to, will lead to minimal complications and/or failures. Try recruiting people through the forums or advertise in game the forum post while doing your regular shroud runs.

"Interested in learning epic raids? want to know what it takes to make that uber epic sword of shadow or epic abishai set! then check this thread out! <insert forum thread link>" Sounds cheesy, but it might work better than you think.

There were a few great raid leaders that would regularly bring newbies into the odd raids and got a very healthy raiding population going on Thelanis. I try to do my part from time to time and help people learn how to lead them, but the server does well enough on its own.

very basic things to go over:
-optimal party makeup
-optimal tank
-optimal crowd controlling
-how to handle common fumbles (like the tank dieing in epic chrono, or a base wiping in epic velah, ect..)

If you teach them nerds will learn.

It's more basic then strategy, a lot of people are running around with characters who miss 85% of their attacks at level 20. Thats what i mean when I say we need ''more good players''

[alvarego]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.


Well said, people want others to play well but nearly noone takes the effort to help/advice, some don't even take the effort to stop harrassing whoever is not in their opinion pro enough.

[Shattered.likeness]

I am on my second life of my TR (Fitzroya), and will be trying to run Epics to TR again, instead of buying another True Druidic Heart of Wood. I am wanting to grind out those items that will help me most on my next life. I've completed 2 Epics in my previous life (both House P), but didn't bother to run enough Shrouds to make any Green Steel items at all. I got a little antsy, and wanted to start working through my next build,and

This life however, I have 3x Tier 2 Green Steel items, and need to start working on my Khopeshes for my next life soon as well. I run all +6 stat items, what little Raid loot is appropriate to my monk that I have found thus far, several +2 tomes, and have watched videos of Mr. Cow and others to try to improve how I play the game. I've never run ToD, Abbot, Titan, DQ, or any other epics thus far. My guild does a night of Shroud, VoD, and Hox, and then calls it a night. We are currently adding Master Artificer to our Raid night. But, other than those, I can hardly even find PUGs to run the quests to get flagged for other Raids. And, I hardly find it appropriate to open up an LFM for quests that I have no idea about, and be expected to lead a party of people that know less about the game than I do. I have been dying to be able to run Abbot and Titan Awakes since I started the game, but can't seem to find others that are running them.

I am in agreement with one of the posters above me. If there were people that were willing to take the time to teach the quests, I'd be more than happy to get another character or three up to 20, to help farm gear for my main and other alts. Some of us just need guidance, and people who are not so concerned with failing the quests a few times in order to make someone a competent player in that quest/ raid.

[mournbladereigns]

Dear Sarlona

Quit Being Such Gimp-ass N00bz So I Can Get Mah Epics!

/DISCUSS


^fixed^ :)

[Unreliable]

^fixed^ :)

I already have my epics, I just like running raids with good players, even if I dont particularly need them.

[Astraghal]

How we can rally up some more ''good'' people? (Also please keep any jokes and BS out of this thread, thanks)

Well a good place to start might be being a nicer and more friendly person.

For example I know you and I have had some issues going way back to when I was fairly new to the game. Took me a while to realise what was going on, being new and not really knowing about alts and blacklists.

But you ignored every join request, tell, mail or finally an attempt to contact you via officers in your guild, to enquire as the nature of the affront that caused you to be so traumatized you would never speak to me again.

I've seen this happen for the stupidest of reasons, like I DC'd in a Shroud once and couldn't get back online for hours. When I did I tried to contact the raid leader to apologize but he had already squelched me because he automatically assumed I was trying to sabotage his Shroud run.

I didn't even bother trying to explain that one, but again that guy was a 'good player' but also quite an obnoxious d-bag. When I started playing DDO I just assumed these people were sullen teens, but once I'd been around a while, I realized they were mostly adults.

You see this is the problem with endgame and 'good players'. There's way too much petty nonsense and big ego's that take little things too seriously. It's very common for guilds/players to have other whole guilds or individual players blacklisted for some arbitrary or stupid reason. Often when they are all part of the same very small pool of competent Epic capable players.

DDO just isn't big enough anymore to be that fussy.

[Unreliable]

Sooo, with that attitude what do you expect to get from other players?, it's obvious that you have a very high concept of yourself (probably noone else shares this), what you seem to ignore is that this game is about cooperation, and talking like that about others just show us your own IQ, that might not reach that 90 you mock about ...

I never said I was the best... I just know what to do and can listen to people in situations where cooperation is vital.

Unfortunately that is not true for most people, and my goal is if anyone has any suggestions on how to get more people to play on Sarlona that can listen, cooperate, and ultimately become a better player.

I cant stress this enough: SOME PEOPLE are just incapable of learning... thats what I meant with the entire 90 IQ thing.

[Milfeulle]

From my point of view, not enough people, especially good players are playing this game due to its popularity.

Also, complex D&D game system plays a major rule here.
When you first played this game, do you know excatly how to build a well planed toon without the knowledge of D&D and help? You might think 2 STR = 2 dmg and therefore a melee must maxed out STR and dump everything else, a wizard must max INT and ignore everything else.
Yea duh, that's why so many ppl don't give a f about their hp, fortification, and AC cause they don't know s and don't want to know cause they believe they know.

Equations equations equations. Is there even one person can give out an exact equation for spell dmg and its balance curve? None. What's every mob and boss resistance, save, ability, AC on diferent difficulty level? Still many unknowns.

Difficulty. TOO EASY. Yep, if you're a wower, then you know that even epic in here is for babies. There are some other MMORPGs I have played and most of the dungeons require TEAM WORK, there are no such thing as solo, you just can't, couple seconds inside a room and you're dead. What's the down side of a game being too easy? Noobs! When a game gets hard, the game itself force you to learn and adapt to it, providing more challenges to improve yourself.


Now, when there are so many better games to enjoy with your rl friends, online friends, give me some reason to play this game.

Khyber got some of the most bad-butt player but I got a big family in Sarlona. I lost a couple close friends but I'm staying because I love D&D rules, backgrounds, and culture :p.

[moops]

I think that Sarlona has many great players, old and new, perhaps you just miss their LFMs.

I don't think one needs uber gear to do harder raids and epics, it is all listening and communicating, and following the directions of the leader. QE takes new players/first timers in everything--I ask the new players/first timers questions to figure out how to best use their build for the run, I have yet to feel that anyone who was actually trying and listening was any kind of burden on the group or not pulling their weight.

I ask people if they are first timers in a way that doesn't make them feel awkward--"Is anyone in group new, I don't care, I just need to know how much to explain." Or if party chat is chattering I just send the same in a tell.

Many of us on Sarlona still run the old raids, which is where newer people are going to learn the basics of teamwork as well as self sufficiency, about DR/DC/CC, and start to pick up some better items (tho not right now as we are running the new raids as much as possible ). . .Then there are those that want to whine about how awful pugs are, that I never see run any of the older content, that will complain when people don't have Tharnes or Madstone boots, TOD rings, or even a HOX shield.

I have guildies that teach Abbot, and there are great leaders and guilds on Sarlona who also teach abbot, or teach other raids, or about their classes, these people rarely if ever fail or have high resource use. When we bring really new people to something, and notice that they are missing something, we give them advice, and often times give them items.

If you like a certain playstyle, you have to teach it and nurture it. Maybe even build a guild around it.

[LoveNeverFails]

I would love love LOVE to be in some of these epic raids you are talking about. But the sighs, or the obnoxicity (mmm, making up words ftw) that i get when i say i'm new turns me off. My cleric has been capped for 3 months now. I've only done Reavers Fate, Shroud, and went into HoX twice and failed both times. House P epics, Red Fens epics, and one or two Sentinels Epics. I've done eChrono exactly twice because i logged in and a guildy BEGGED me too because they had been waiting 45 mins for a healer. Both times were a success and i only drank two pots. But ya know what, at level 20, i'm still not swimming in plat. Which means i don't have a ton of money to drop on mem pots. So i'm hesitant to join epics or raids i'm unfamiliar with, to hear people sigh over their mics, and drink ten pots because no one will explain *** is going on and i'm trying to heal everything at once, to fail and have it blamed on me doubly because i'm both a healer and a newb to the quest.

More raid teaching like what Witchy was doing with VoN5 would be a good thing. But just because someone has shroud items, does not necessarily mean that they know what they are doing. I've got two lit II scimmi's, tomes out the wazzoo, a con op set, and still won't mess with an eADQ because 1 i've heard it's hard as balls, and 2 i'm hesitant to join lfms like that.

Now your asking about how to make good players, please be willing to HELP MAKE GOOD PLAYERS. That is all.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm backing up my computer now to reformat and partition for windows so that I can reinstall DDO.

Though, I've been trying to convince myself that I should leave Sarlona behind and move on over to Khyber as that is where the Aussie's hang out, or so I hear.

Would be painful to leave my TR behind, not to mention items such as an unsuppressed PLIS on my monk ... :(

[Satinavian]

I never said I was the best... I just know what to do and can listen to people in situations where cooperation is vital.

Unfortunately that is not true for most people, and my goal is if anyone has any suggestions on how to get more people to play on Sarlona that can listen, cooperate, and ultimately become a better player.

I cant stress this enough: SOME PEOPLE are just incapable of learning... thats what I meant with the entire 90 IQ thing.
But it is true

First its about needing people having the experience and gear to be usefull in those difficult quest, and suddenly those lacking the gear or experience become "low IQ", "not be able to listen, cooperate", "not good players", "incapable of learning" or do not know the rules of the game or have a stupid build.

Yes, this is a difference. A new lv 20 has on average the same IQ and the same ability to cooperate as someone who has reached the cap 2 years before him. The rules are pretty well documented and you don't need to farm endgame to get to know them or have a good build. You only need to be able to look them up. But reading comprehension or willingness to invest time to understand numbers is also nothing an old player is in principle superior in.

The only difference is experience with the particular quest and uber gear from a very long grind. Nothing anyone can be too proud of. That's why insulting the IQ is so much more appealing for elitist jerks.

But speaking of appealing, how appealing is endgame for newcomers in the moment ? Excluded from 90% (everything slightly challenging) and accepted but insulted and ridiculed in the small rest. Not that this rest is not lacking fun as it is because of the long long repitative grind of things sometimes easier than a lot of reguar quests.

"Oh, your lv 20. Time to start farming exclusivle Shroud,Reavers and normal DQ for the next 4 months and be insulted by vets everytime so you might then be able to even try the easier epics to do the same again" Yes. far more appealing to TR or level alts.

[LoveNeverFails]

But speaking of appealing, how appealing is endgame for newcomers in the moment ? Excluded from 90% (everything slightly challenging) and accepted but insulted and ridiculed in the small rest. Not that this rest is not lacking fun as it is because of the long long repitative grind of things sometimes easier than a lot of reguar quests.

"Oh, your lv 20. Time to start farming exclusivle Shroud,Reavers and normal DQ for the next 4 months and be insulted by vets everytime so you might then be able to even try the easier epics to do the same again" Yes. far more appealing to TR or level alts.

It's why Khaian is getting TRed, and with that TR, even Ndarei will probably be relegated to Shroud farming. /no fun playing endgame content when you have no idea *** is going on, and no one wants to explain it to you.

[Candela90]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.

My first VOD, I was verbally accosted for 5 minutes by someone in the group who couldn't believe I was a level 20 and had never run VOD. When I said I also had not run HOX, he practically came unglued. I received similar reactions my first times on Titan and eChrono.

Thing is, I want to run these quests and raids. I like challenges, and I really like loot. I also understand someone that is running VOD for the 40th time is tired of explaining it. However, you cannot complain (by you, I do not mean you Unreliable, I mean 'you' in the general sense) that newbs are ruining your raids if you are not willing to take one aside and teach them the ropes. Having my toon or my experience insulted makes me (and I'm sure others) not want to try again.

So my suggestion is teach the newbs. Take us under your wings and into your guild runs, and make us better players. Explain what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you MyDDO one of my toons and decide I do not make the grade for your group, please tell me why. If you want a better player pool to pull from, you have be willing to make the newbs better players.

+1 to rep. Totally agree.
Met with the same and if not my guildies ill be still newbie who never ran these...

[GrayScioto]

The biggest problem with DDO is the population, true.

But it isn't the bad players as the newbs you will always have to use a twisted Biblical reference. The population problem is that DDO has to be home to one of the larger percentages of priggish, elitist snobs that I have ever witnessed in an MMO. There are certainly more kind-hearted folks who are willing to show less knowable players the ropes but they cannot make up for the snobbish jerks.

While I was leveling up my gimp first character cleric I would often have folks blind invite me and then give me a hard time when I didn't heal fast enough. Now with more experience and a capped toon I realize that they were the ones who sucked with low HP, no fort and zerging at the wrong times. I know this because I had good groups where I learned how to play well with others. The problem is that the fear of and memory of the bad runs have the greatest impact on my personal game morale.

I wonder how many future good players we lose to the soul crushing Leet JErks?

[NaturalHazard]

Has diablo 3 been luring away some of sarlona's best? :confused:

[Munkenmo]

(Snip) I'm a bad healer (/snip)

Maybe if you get better, or show that you want to get better, people will be nicer to you.

or perhaps if you stop considering yourself a gimp others will do the same.

[LoveNeverFails]

Maybe if you get better, or show that you want to get better, people will be nicer to you.

or perhaps if you stop considering yourself a gimp others will do the same.

... i think you missed the point of the post...

[rodallec]

Snobby elitist jerks on sarlona? No way. Who?
The guy with 11 tr's that tells everyone else they don't know how to get xp?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=345013

People trying to start a channel to do all this raiding stuff.
Might be a good place to bring "competent" players together.
And also teach new people. At least you know they can communicate.

[ristretto93]

Im gonna brag about Thelanis for a sec :) I do play on Sarlona too, and have been able to compare the nature of different aspects of the players on each of these two servers..

While there are exceptions, it seems like every time on Thelanis I have run something I am new to I am not only tolerated, but there are plenty of people that offer advice and help out the new guy. This goes a long way, and I think you can see it reflected in the success of various PuGs. I think that over all, this tolerance of new players leads to new players becoming experienced and those now experienced players continue to pass down the knowledge to other new players.

As a result, PuGs seem more confident in running quests. People aren't worried about failing because of a new person, because they are helping that new person along. Things seem more efficient over all. Heck, even LFMs take less time to fill on Thelanis. I think self confidence has everything to do with success, and Thelanis are a bunch of confident mo-fo's :)

Yes, there are exceptions, but I have learned over time that if you let them, for the most part the experienced players treat you well (unless mistreated) and know that passing on knowledge works to the benefit of EVERYONE on the server eventually. Sure there are selfish people, but they are easy to spot and easy to avoid.

All I can suggest is to put some trust in new players - enough to give them the opportunity to learn things and gear up. Even more important: Trust in yourselves! Know that even if the new player screws up your own knowledge is almost always going to be enough to save the situation. And if you have a failure or two...so f'ing what!! It is just a game, and failing a couple times now in order to prevent more and more failures later seems totally worth it to me.

Sorry Sarlona. I have fun playing my characters on that server, but when it comes to getting into unexplored territory I don't think thats where I would want to play. Maybe Im biased. I really really like Thelanis and its population...

[Zenako]

It can be hard to appreciate the large step function in challenge that occurs between Elite and Epic settings. Yes changes between Normal and Hard and Hard and Elite are noticable, but you can often just overpower most quests with simple brute DPS. (Not that you can't do that too in EPIC, it is just not the most efficient at times, using a few other tricks in that large bag CAN speed things up a LOT.)

So you get players who are now 20th and can only NOW do EPICs and have not had a chance to learn on the way up. EPIC is not for just any toon to take on. If you are NOT EPIC ready, you are likely to die, hard, and often. Being 20th level is only the key to get in the door. You need at least a decent character build, and a good selection of gear, and most importantly, a GOOD knowledge of the game and what spells, tactics, weapons, etc to use in those quests.

As a melee you need ways to mitigate the rate of damage (that can be AC (rather hard to do), HP (often the course), Twitch (which can really help) and just simply using the right tools and effects. Casters need to know which spells work best. Tossing Reflex Save spells at evading mobs, is all but pointless when the mobs have monster REF. You need to have good spell DC and perhaps Spell Pen, and Enhancements to give those spells some punch (for either DPS or for actually affecting the target). This is the part of the game that many newer players lack, since it is very possible to be one trick ponies in lower level content and cruise to victory.

Be sure to have run the quests/raids on lower settings first so you know the layout and the general plan of action. Your first experience against Velah probably should not be in eVon...

[k1ngp1n]

Has diablo 3 been luring away some of sarlona's best? :confused:

Pretty much.

I don't know many top-end players who ***** needlessly at people, but I do know many who are prone to rage. The differences between the two are subtle but important.

[Galeria]

Zonixx, I've watched a couple of your live feeds.

There is no helping people in the ones I've seen and very little teamwork. The last live one I watched, you were kicked from your own guild's Ventrillo for "being a tool" before the ToD group even filled.

If you want better players, it starts with you. Instead of just making fun of people on guild chat, participate and coordinate the raid.

Use your admittedly very cool streaming technology to show people the right way to run things (a teaching tool!) instead of just a format to show off how cool you are.

The reason I've watched your feed is to learn the things I haven't done yet (or would like to know better ways to do it) and pretty much they are zerg fests featuring you.

Plenty of good players on Sarlona... maybe they are avoiding you and your feeds. You know?

[Vint]

Well said, people want others to play well but nearly noone takes the effort to help/advice, some don't even take the effort to stop harrassing whoever is not in their opinion pro enough.

Whenever I have tried to help someone in the past, I always got the "don't tell me how to play my character garbage". My sig says it best. I am no longer here to babysit, hand hold, or be a self eteem counselor.

If you don't know the quest, read wiki. See what the quest is like. They have a great section on what spells, spell pen, and other great knowledge there.

The most important one I cant stress enough is, when an LFM is up for a quest/raid that asks that you know it, ip, byoh or any other restriction; please make sure you meet the criteria. If you don't want to read wiki, or you don't want to get advice by looking on the boards at builds, mechanics or other aspects of the game it is on you.

When you decide to join a party, you must remember that 5/11 other people are trying to have fun.

[countfitz]

I am just getting very tired of having to wait for the same 30-40 ''good'' players to log on so we can run an eChrono. It seems when none of the ''good'' players are on, it is very difficult to get a competant group up.


So, before I begin, I'm on Thelanis, aka the "best" server, so I don't know how much my opinion counts here, but I think the problem is you only trust 30-40 people, so you only play with them. If you PUGed more, you'd find out most players are NEW but competent, and will learn very fast. At least that is true of Thelanis, but our culture is a lot more "player friendly" and "willing to teach" and I've heard some very negative things about the "elite" players on Sarlona, but I don't actually know.

Anyway, my advice is, PUG away, have fun, teach, and you'll find and, more importantly, make new good players. We were all new players once!

[wax_on_wax_off]

...Snip...

Oh, I see, so I don't need heavy fortificaiton or +6 stat items on my level 20 characters, thanks for clarifying!

Fact is, DDO has 2 years of time to directly compete with Neverwinter so there will be plenty of time to evaluate whether or not DDO is worth a renewed license.

Neverwinter sounds great ... but the proof will be in the pudding, until then, I'm not going to bash on the best MMO out.

[elricken]

Pretty much.

I don't know many top-end players who ***** needlessly at people, but I do know many who are prone to rage. The differences between the two are subtle but important.

C'mon now, there is no rage 'round these parts :p

But no really, I'm pretty much always available to help and teach.. I post tons of epic lfms and always take the first few who click. I never begrudge being asked questions in game either, it's the people who expect to be carried through things that drive me up the walls. Ask and ye shall receive, pretend you know it all and then **** up and yea I'm gonna be ****y.

[Jay203]

see, that's the problem with the game now
"good" players are associated with the power gears, so even bad players can disguise as "good" players as long as they take the time to grind out the gear

[NaturalHazard]

see, that's the problem with the game now
"good" players are associated with the power gears, so even bad players can disguise as "good" players as long as they take the time to grind out the gear

Tiiiiiiiimmeeee is on my side, yes it is.

[Seamonkeysix]

The problem is that what the OP is asking for is a vicious cycle:

People who do run raids and epics KNOW how to run raids and epics as a general rule. They, therefore, want to run with other people who already KNOW how to run raids and epics. For the most part on Sarlona, I can take a look a a toon's guild tag and know that person probably knows what they are doing in a raid. If I don't recognize the guild tag, I can peep your MyDDO and see if you have raid gear and also get a decent idea if you know what you are doing or not.

It's human nature to want to succeed. Nobody likes to waste time in a raid that is less likely to succeed with unknown variables than run a raid that is more likely to succeed with known variables.

It's hard for the newer people to get into good groups because most of the ppl on Sarlona have a good idea what groups will succeed easily, or not so much. If you haven't made a reputation for yourself that is positive, or are in a guild with a solid raiding reputation, you are probably relegated to more "PuG" raids with a lower success rate. This leads to failures that lead new people to not want to raid, and have worse gear, which leads to more declinations on requests to parties where ppl do have the appropriate gear, ect...

I don't know that there really is an easy solution to the problem, other than when you are new to the game, server, or raids, that you go up incrementally in raids and get experience, gear and a good rep.

Run (in order):

Chronoscope (at level): as much as possible...yes, you will outgrow the gear, but you will learn basic raid skills. You can also collect base items for future epic upgrades.

VON6 (at level): as much as possible. Decent gear that you can upgrade to epic later.

Reaver (from the time you can until you have what you need): as much as you can. Madstone boots are really a bonus. Shield can be decent for some builds. Napkin, head, ect...

Titan: (although I personally find Titan to be a waste of time for most gear...just gets you some raiding experience)

ADQ (at level): Some loot in here you want, and a short raid. It will give you an at level raid experience and a peek at what the raid looks like for epic.

Shroud (at level): Run this a lot! Yes it is boring after you get it, but it teaches you raid skills, teamwork, and the gear you craft will be viable to end-game in a lot of circumstances.

Abbot: Lord knows I hate suggesting this raid. It really is an anomaly. Pretty tough at level, and leans toward casters. A few pieces of gear that are nice for some classes. It is an experience everyone should have...but I would be lying if I said I like Abbot. ;)

HoX and VoD: You should be ready for HoX and VoD if you have honed your skills in the above raids. Yes you will have to figure out the basics about the way to get there and how the raid works, but you should know how to listen and raid by now and have some gear that will get you through it.

ToD: If you have actually spent the time to run the above raids, you should now have the gear and experience to get through Amrath and flag for ToD and get your boots. ToD has gear that everybody will use at endgame for the most part. ToD is a good measure at difficulties above normal if you are ready to move on to Epics. Get some ToD gear and get yourself ready for epics.

Epic 6 man quests: Hit Fens, House D and P epics. You can pick up some epic items and get a feel for the difference in difficulty between epic content and normal content. It will give you a chance to judge if you above work is paying off.

NOW run Epic Raids. If you actually did the above, you should have gear, made friends, probably are in a decent guild, and built a server reputation for yourself as somebody who knows what you are doing.

If you just race to 20, and expect to raid and run epics, you are short changing yourself and your party.

I know....TL;DR ;)

[Quetzacoala]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.

My first VOD, I was verbally accosted for 5 minutes by someone in the group who couldn't believe I was a level 20 and had never run VOD. When I said I also had not run HOX, he practically came unglued. I received similar reactions my first times on Titan and eChrono.

Thing is, I want to run these quests and raids. I like challenges, and I really like loot. I also understand someone that is running VOD for the 40th time is tired of explaining it. However, you cannot complain (by you, I do not mean you Unreliable, I mean 'you' in the general sense) that newbs are ruining your raids if you are not willing to take one aside and teach them the ropes. Having my toon or my experience insulted makes me (and I'm sure others) not want to try again.

So my suggestion is teach the newbs. Take us under your wings and into your guild runs, and make us better players. Explain what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you MyDDO one of my toons and decide I do not make the grade for your group, please tell me why. If you want a better player pool to pull from, you have be willing to make the newbs better players.

Its funny... I was gonna post something like this, and you posted all of the same situations I have been through. I am also on Sarlona, once capped toon (a fvs), never been in Demon Queen or HoX, failed all VOD attempts, never ran an epic...

How can I improve if nobody wants newbs in their groups?!?

[protokon]

No offense OP, but I see the root of the problem isn't the players who don't know..its the players who do know.

There seems to be a general consensus that players who don't know how to do the end-game content aren't capable of learning. you've proven that with the responses to myself and other posts, shooting down any and all suggestions.

Trust me. We have players just as...dumb...on Thelanis, that will use a random dwarf axe they found at level 7 in a level 20 raid because they just dont know better. or have no idea what fortification is and how important it is. Have an attack bonus so low they couldn't hit a held mob on casual. those players are out there everywhere.

If you want to continue to avoid any and all bad players, then continue to stay in guild/in channels and avoid pugging at all costs. If your looking to make the general raiding population better, the tools are in your hands to do so..yes your going to run into morons that you couldn't teach how to solve a shroud puzzle with the solver to save their lives, theres nothing you can do about them. but you'll find that theres many people out there willing to learn who are capable of learning, if not more than those that aren't.

[k1ngp1n]

C'mon now, there is no rage 'round these parts :p


None at all, good sir. Rainbows and butterflies all around, really.

[moops]

New people,
There are for sure a couple groups of people whom post LFMs that are horrible to players they don't know, and even those they do. I've been embarrassed to be in these groups, sometimes I've left, but often times since I'm on a healer I stay.

It's true that I myself have gotten mad, but it has only been when someone did not listen/read over and over and over. I mean when I lead, I type all important stuff as well as say it--like 3 times. Or if my LFM is a no buff run and someone joins and trys to buff the group every part of the raid:) It has never been because of lack of gear or newness to quest--Heck I dragged a 300 HP rogue without DR breakers thru TOD and ev6 recently.

LFM panel/who list can be your friend, watch it, it has trends and clues.

Groups you might try to join:
Spyder from Caffeine has videos on just about every popular quest in the game.

Samulus from Fight Club is an excellent leader, and is prob the best at explaining every aspect of a raid that I have played with--however he TRs alot.

Quantum Entropy explains decently well--Except for shroud with we run fast-- and depending on the leader we take just about any group make up to any raid after the 3 or 4 key spots are filled. We have been taking non TR'd lvl 17's into LOB and MA--so you know that we are taking what are considered undergeared people.

Avoid Certain LFMS
IMHO I have found that LFMs that say "No Morons" and the like should be avoided--when I have joined these in the past, these were the most abrasive to newer people and first timers.

If an LFM says know what you are doing, avoid it. It means that either the leader does not know what he is doing, or that he is not going to explain one thing.

LFMS that sit forever do so for a reason, you know the 45 min TOD LFMS and eChrono LFMs

Avoid antiquated LFMS.
Such as a VOD just looking for a WF tank when there is not even one caster in group, or raids only taking one caster--truth is that these days more casters = more easier win for most raids--Velah might be the exception because of SP limitations, but some casters can stand right up on Velah and recharge sp all day. Also LFMS that think only Barbs and Fighters are DPS.

eDQ is the easiest Epic Raid to run--everyone just stands in a ball--I've gone with some pretty low hp people since u11, caster heavy groups, and we've only had one wipe when someone was DCing, there is no way around that, we went right back in with the same exact group and did not have one death. Not one run I've done has used pots.

User chats
There are many user chats out there that are not advertised on these boards. As you pug, and pug with some of the same people, and show that you can listen and follow directions and aren't a jerk, you will prob get asked to join one. You yourself can even make one--say if you are in a small guild of friends that wants to stay that small--a user chat can be like an extention of your own guild.

[Ilindith]

User chats
There are many user chats out there that are not advertised on these boards. As you pug, and pug with some of the same people, and show that you can listen and follow directions and aren't a jerk, you will prob get asked to join one.

I don't know any of these. Am I?

a)A noob
b)A jerk
c)Someone that can't follow instructions
d)All of the above

:p

[mournbladereigns]

I don't know that there really is an easy solution to the problem, other than when you are new to the game, server, or raids, that you go up incrementally in raids and get experience, gear and a good rep.

Run (in order):


I agree with your general advice. But see not great use in trying to run every raid, especially giving the leveling speed these days. So my adjustments/reccomendations. (of course I have several capped toons, but I still didn't even bother to raid till I flag for shroud usually. Other than say Tempest Spine, which you left out, and is the only free to play one.




Chronoscope (at level): as much as possible...yes, you will outgrow the gear, but you will learn basic raid skills. You can also collect base items for future epic upgrades.


Chrono is not a bad choice, but more often than not a loot with 20s grinding through it. So doesn't get played that often, and is P2P.



VON6 (at level): as much as possible. Decent gear that you can upgrade to epic later.

VoN5/6 (I'd say Von5 is better experience for teamwork and having the party split up for multiple goals, learning what is going on and each step necessary is a good exercise for mastering later raids. It's also great XP.

After Von5/6 Tempest Spine is very good for dealing with a fast moving completion, lots of quest tasks, dealing with special boss fight conditions, navigating your way through stuff. Dealing with a wide variety of enemies. It also has lots of chests so can get some plat. And you can repeat as much as you want basically.

One of the best areas to learn to do fast completions and work with the party. Lot of scenarios, fire and ice for acting quick and dealing with special boss rules. Beholder fights, Golem fights for DR breaking, rusties. Dealing with the swim for getting through and keeping up with party. Finally fight with Sorjek for tanking/kting and getting puzzle done. It is one of the most 'intense' experiences for new players. Lots of stuff to learn and fast paced race up the mountain. It's also fun.



Reaver (from the time you can until you have what you need): as much as you can. Madstone boots are really a bonus. Shield can be decent for some builds. Napkin, head, ect...

Meh, Reaver is a poor raid for learning anything other than how to pike. Doing Tors is better for learning how to do fast moving stuff, and the dragon fights for dealing with tricky boss fight stuff.



Titan: (although I personally find Titan to be a waste of time for most gear...just gets you some raiding experience)


Meh, one of the least run raids, and unpopular area. Not worth Worrying about.



ADQ (at level): Some loot in here you want, and a short raid. It will give you an at level raid experience and a peek at what the raid looks like for epic.

A good one, but not often done at level. The toughest part for new players is getting to it, instead of trying to go Chains of flame. The pre-quest is tedious so often done on casual. You'll generally outlevel the thing before you do it more than a couple times. Though dealing with tough boss fight that isn't a stand up fight is good.



Shroud (at level): Run this a lot! Yes it is boring after you get it, but it teaches you raid skills, teamwork, and the gear you craft will be viable to end-game in a lot of circumstances.

Eh, at-level isn't that important as it is to learn how to beat each section. You'll do far for more at cap anyway. Most people don't run it at level anyway. Just 20s for moar ingredients.




Abbot: Lord knows I hate suggesting this raid. It really is an anomaly. Pretty tough at level, and leans toward casters. A few pieces of gear that are nice for some classes. It is an experience everyone should have...but I would be lying if I said I like Abbot. ;)

bleah, only slight more popular than Titan. But worth doing I guess for heavy puzzle party split action.



HoX and VoD: You should be ready for HoX and VoD if you have honed your skills in the above raids. Yes you will have to figure out the basics about the way to get there and how the raid works, but you should know how to listen and raid by now and have some gear that will get you through it.

HoX and VoD are a good gateway to grinding end-game stuff. First raids where you can work on learning something new quickly and jumping into your role.




ToD: If you have actually spent the time to run the above raids, you should now have the gear and experience to get through Amrath and flag for ToD and get your boots. ToD has gear that everybody will use at endgame for the most part. ToD is a good measure at difficulties above normal if you are ready to move on to Epics. Get some ToD gear and get yourself ready for epics.


Agree on this.



Epic 6 man quests: Hit Fens, House D and P epics. You can pick up some epic items and get a feel for the difference in difficulty between epic content and normal content. It will give you a chance to judge if you above work is paying off.

NOW run Epic Raids. If you actually did the above, you should have gear, made friends, probably are in a decent guild, and built a server reputation for yourself as somebody who knows what you are doing.

If you just race to 20, and expect to raid and run epics, you are short changing yourself and your party.


Racing to 20 is fine, so long as you learn how to play your toon along the way. After you cap is a good time to start raiding, and learn the raids, and grinding gear. As for Epics, bleah. Optional grinding for marginal gain. I say don't expect to run Epics, and really don't bother till you are hella bored:) Grinding out your 20+ shrouds, making some GS stuff is more useful.

[Doxmaster]

Rolling up a toon on Sarlona right now.

You're welcome.

[Yan_PL]

one of problems at hand is, that for "just decent" players with bad luck on loot rolls, running with elitist folks armed to the teeth might be unpleasant experience; and getting a group of "just decent" players is not enough to get proper gear, to get player (not character) experience with his jobs and duties...

...while for those end-game top tier geared people, who already know what to do, how to do it and why it works, running with "unprepared" people is not up to par.


you want more good players? stop being elitist, open up for not-good-yet people, embrace running with them, help them learn stuff. Like someone up in this thread said, use your streaming tools to teach people willing to learn. Help other players get their mid-game stuff so they could contribute in endgame. Explain why heavy fort is important instead of just ranting about someone not having it. Be polite. Answer questions in /a channel.

[Falske_bengt]

I have three things to say:

1: This is a game. You are supposed to enjoy playing ddo, if you dont then why do you play it? If you fail a quest/raid you can always try agian with a new strategy or try later with when you character has improved, its not like completing/failing a quest will change the world.

2: Its a MMORPG. By forbidding noobs entering your team you are not only ruining gamingspirit you are also ruining the education of new players. Its all about handling and helping your team. Helping others to improve can sometimes be just as fun as see yourself improve. There is a reason why you need 12 people to complete a hard raid. If you cant handle other people and their flaws you should play a singel player game, there you can be a pro and only have to rely on yourself.

3: We are all human. You are allowed to be disappointed when you fail a quest, but most of the time you cant hold a singel person responsable for your failure. Yeah, sometimes there is this one person who is completly ruining everything, but if you are new to a quest you will probably try your best to complete it.

[ballsz]

You know, the only person I've seen offering to actually build up new players (not just private runs for guildies) on Sarlona is Witchy.

True she did do that for a bit, and it was a great thing for a lot of Sarlonians. Other's have done it too but it's just not done often enough. I've done it for other raids such as TOD but it gets tiring after awhile.

Gear does not make a good player. A good player can have **** gear and still make a good contribution to a group.

The issue we have on Sarlona is two fold, people who want to learn and people who want to teach. Neither exist in abundance. People don't want to teach because there are so few who are willing to actually learn, people don't want to learn because they get ridiculed by those who do not want to teach.

Until this changes, we will have a lack of "good" players.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I have finished the TR grind and my final build for my cleric.

I'll be running epics/raids in the evenings again after I'm done in the cove.

For those that don't know me, I run raids but am known for being fond of my own voice and explaining exactly what I expect from members of the group and the strategy employed. Be willing to listen and follow directions. When you do the raid succeeds regardless of difficulty. When don't, let us just say I don't forget it.

The secret of success in PUG raids is 2-3 toons you can rely on, knowing the raid, explaining things, and LEADERSHIP. A little vetting of players before they join will often let you weed out 70% of the attitude problem types.

[Dragonhyde]

there are good players on Sarlona?!? I must have run with thrann too much this past go around to notice :rolleyes:

[Galeria]

The issue we have on Sarlona is two fold, people who want to learn and people who want to teach. Neither exist in abundance. People don't want to teach because there are so few who are willing to actually learn, people don't want to learn because they get ridiculed by those who do not want to teach.


People who don't want to learn don't join training raids though. If you join, you certainly aren't there for a fast completion.

Now, the one VoN5-6 I did with Witchy included about 8 decent people and 2 complete idiots, one of whom released at the end of part 5 (after everyone was told several times not to) and whined on party chat all through VoN6 that we were leaving him out and it wasn't fair. (I would guess he was a kid from the hand holding he needed.)

Witchy told him she'd run him through by himself when we were done... she has the patience of a kindergarten teacher.

Most people aren't going to put up with that. I wouldn't. I'd have dropped his sorry whining behind from the group as soon as he said he'd released... but that's not the point. 8 other people in that raid learned a LOT. Good questions, good answers.

Most end-game players can't be good teachers... they have neither the patience nor the communication skills to pull it off. They also don't remember what it's like to "not know" since they've been running the exact same content for years.

But the general skills of end game players won't get any better if decent newbs never get a chance to learn. Right now, if you aren't in a guild that does end game raids (and is willing to gear you up and carry you til you get it down) it's very difficult to do end game.

[Unreliable]

Zonixx, I've watched a couple of your live feeds.

There is no helping people in the ones I've seen and very little teamwork. The last live one I watched, you were kicked from your own guild's Ventrillo for "being a tool" before the ToD group even filled.

If you want better players, it starts with you. Instead of just making fun of people on guild chat, participate and coordinate the raid.

Use your admittedly very cool streaming technology to show people the right way to run things (a teaching tool!) instead of just a format to show off how cool you are.

The reason I've watched your feed is to learn the things I haven't done yet (or would like to know better ways to do it) and pretty much they are zerg fests featuring you.

Plenty of good players on Sarlona... maybe they are avoiding you and your feeds. You know?

That was a vent joke.. Jokes on you for thinking anything we say in nat20 vent is serious.

[Galeria]

LOL, you immediately cut your live feed after posting some words that turned into !@#$^& in guild chat. Sounds like the joke was on you!

[bendover]

Geez it just seems like your on a mission to get the most infractions you can these days.

Lol

To me this is only a video game and people are being employed to give me a slap on the wrist anytime I say something offensive then I'm all for supporting the economy. I think after 13 points and 16 seperate incidents if they were really annoyed by me they would have removed me. So I'm positively contributing to society through a video game forum.

[LolWutRoflstomped]

Zonixx, I've watched a couple of your live feeds.

There is no helping people in the ones I've seen and very little teamwork. The last live one I watched, you were kicked from your own guild's Ventrillo for "being a tool" before the ToD group even filled.

If you want better players, it starts with you. Instead of just making fun of people on guild chat, participate and coordinate the raid.

Use your admittedly very cool streaming technology to show people the right way to run things (a teaching tool!) instead of just a format to show off how cool you are.

The reason I've watched your feed is to learn the things I haven't done yet (or would like to know better ways to do it) and pretty much they are zerg fests featuring you.

Plenty of good players on Sarlona... maybe they are avoiding you and your feeds. You know?

Cool story bro. Zerging does not mean we don't know what we're doing. Also these "zerg fests" complete with minimal if any resource usage and I get many tells thanking me for what people have learned from livestream. How many pots do you use in LOB again? Try to watch and learn maybe.

[Allorian]

Hey guys, there are plenty of good players on sarlona. If you run regular raids you will have people who will regularly be in your raid usually about 5-7 core people with the rest filling in with people who float in and out of your raid. There are a lot of people who only run in guild raids so you never see them pugging, while there are some good puggers out there who I love to get in my raids. With the last update a lot of things have changed and it is very difficult to take someone with little or no experience in an epic raid, I still take anyone into a TOD after I fill the necessary spots with people i know as it is pretty easy. I think the challenge is getting players to the next level so to speak. Pre-update I could take 4-6 people I knew and trusted and pug the rest in in the most difficult epics, that is not the case now. The end game epic raids are just longer, and well played and geared toons can easily complete them. I ran an Echrono this morning that went text book untill the main tank died on The abishai and then the back-up tank and a few more after that and it was going south real fast. We still completed becasue of the players skill in the raid and everyone working as a team. Those are the more memorable runs because ya pulled it out when it probably shoulda' failed. We have to overcome and adapt with the update changes to complete epic raids, teaching new players can work if they have gear and experience from easier epics and non-epic raids. When you are pugged into a group you have to remember who has the star, you have to listen and find out what the plan is and not try and tell the leader how to do the run or what is needed in it. Its funny that still happens to me about 1-2 times a week when I let in a pug. I have compelted over 300 EV6's, 150 Echrono's, 100 EDQ's, 150 TOD's and around 200 shrouds. I ran about 80-90% of them but people still wanna think they should run the group. Maybe its because people wont join thier group, I dunno. Anyway I really enjoy helping a new person and that is where the next best friend in game or guildie can and probably will come from. Anyway helping people get to that next level is a lot of fun, help em do the lower end raids, teach them how to complete the raid, how to do the shroud and help em get geared. take em throught the sub and VOD and HOX, then amrath and TOD which is still a kick in the pants. When you find that there is almost no gear out there that you would really like or want and have 10-15 Epic items on your toon with about a half dozen sitting in the bank, the only real challenge is help out your guidlies and buddies get what they want and share your knowledge of the game with those who want to listen and learn. Not everyone wants advice or will listen but at the risk of sounding corny "When the student is ready the master will appear". It is true, help enough people and you will find the ones that will listen and learn. Anyway just my 2 cents guys...


Thx
Glam/Juggernautte/Choh Proud memeber of Sarlonas Midnight Guardians

[Rdonaccount]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.

My first VOD, I was verbally accosted for 5 minutes by someone in the group who couldn't believe I was a level 20 and had never run VOD. When I said I also had not run HOX, he practically came unglued. I received similar reactions my first times on Titan and eChrono.

Thing is, I want to run these quests and raids. I like challenges, and I really like loot. I also understand someone that is running VOD for the 40th time is tired of explaining it. However, you cannot complain (by you, I do not mean you Unreliable, I mean 'you' in the general sense) that newbs are ruining your raids if you are not willing to take one aside and teach them the ropes. Having my toon or my experience insulted makes me (and I'm sure others) not want to try again.

So my suggestion is teach the newbs. Take us under your wings and into your guild runs, and make us better players. Explain what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you MyDDO one of my toons and decide I do not make the grade for your group, please tell me why. If you want a better player pool to pull from, you have be willing to make the newbs better players.

No.

No one should berate you for not ever doing a run before. And quite frankly, that seems like an aberration more than anything else. Unless, of course, you only mentioned it after screwing something up rather than right after joining the group.

But teaching runs only go so far. People learn by doing. There are plenty of vets who get the itch every now and then to do teaching runs thru any particular raid, but all they end up doing is giving some newbies a vague clue of a quest while being towed all the way thru it. It is when those newbies are on their own, learning it for themselves, that you actually being familiar with the quest. Go ahead and try to get your feet wet with vets if you want, but look to lead. Know why you pulled that lever, for a reason better than "the vet told me to."

The rest of it comes from knowing your own capabilities as a player. Zerging isn't just for max xp/min, it's to really stretch the limitations of your gameplay. You never know when a raid's chance of success or failure will come down to you knowing how much damage you can heal thru, or how quickly you can cc/kill a single target when the rest of the raid is dead or asleep. Good players know most of that before they ever even step into a quest, because they've pushed themselves beyond their own limits many many times in other content.

I don't know where all the good players went. It does seem like the same names over and over in epic raids and such though. I know more than a few who have quit, and many more who are considering doing so as well.

[slothinator]

No.

No one should berate you for not ever doing a run before. And quite frankly, that seems like an aberration more than anything else. Unless, of course, you only mentioned it after screwing something up rather than right after joining the group.

But teaching runs only go so far. People learn by doing. There are plenty of vets who get the itch every now and then to do teaching runs thru any particular raid, but all they end up doing is giving some newbies a vague clue of a quest while being towed all the way thru it. It is when those newbies are on their own, learning it for themselves, that you actually being familiar with the quest. Go ahead and try to get your feet wet with vets if you want, but look to lead. Know why you pulled that lever, for a reason better than "the vet told me to."

The rest of it comes from knowing your own capabilities as a player. Zerging isn't just for max xp/min, it's to really stretch the limitations of your gameplay. You never know when a raid's chance of success or failure will come down to you knowing how much damage you can heal thru, or how quickly you can cc/kill a single target when the rest of the raid is dead or asleep. Good players know most of that before they ever even step into a quest, because they've pushed themselves beyond their own limits many many times in other content.

I don't know where all the good players went. It does seem like the same names over and over in epic raids and such though. I know more than a few who have quit, and many more who are considering doing so as well.

Good post, and I want to make sure I hit all of your points.

1 - In reference to the "incident", we were still in the marketplace waiting to go into the sub. I never - repeat NEVER - touch anything in a quest unless I am told (first time) or I have touched it before.

2. As for learning on my own, I do a lot of things. I come to the forums, and I have read all of the posts by Star, MrCow, and Spyderwolfe. I do not remember the last quest I ran where I did not read up on it at the wiki first. I try and solo everything, except for raids, before I join a group. That's me; not everyone is willing to put in that kind of effort to improve their game.

3. I like to zerg, and I feel I am getting better at it. Even if it's solo, I find it more fun than crawling through at a "first timers" pace. Unless I have first timers in the group; now crawling is a better idea.

4. I know there are plenty of good players on Sarlona. I have run with them. I have been in lightning quick shrouds, eChronos that felt like at level runs, and some epic quests where there was more talking and joking than anything else. I have also been in the two hour Coal Chamber runs, the 45 minute Sane Asylums (for the FOURTH time, will you stop killing the Nightmare!!!), and other assorted disasters. Explaining to people what needs to be done and why, what they are doing wrong, and how they can improve their gear goes a lot farther than raging and quitting. I also realize that just because someone is good at something, it does not make them a good instructor or teacher.

And now I'm just rambling.....so I'll stop this here and see if I can better organize what I am trying to say tomorrow.

[LolWutRoflstomped]

Good post, and I want to make sure I hit all of your points.

1 - In reference to the "incident", we were still in the marketplace waiting to go into the sub. I never - repeat NEVER - touch anything in a quest unless I am told (first time) or I have touched it before.

2. As for learning on my own, I do a lot of things. I come to the forums, and I have read all of the posts by Star, MrCow, and Spyderwolfe. I do not remember the last quest I ran where I did not read up on it at the wiki first. I try and solo everything, except for raids, before I join a group. That's me; not everyone is willing to put in that kind of effort to improve their game.

3. I like to zerg, and I feel I am getting better at it. Even if it's solo, I find it more fun than crawling through at a "first timers" pace. Unless I have first timers in the group; now crawling is a better idea.

4. I know there are plenty of good players on Sarlona. I have run with them. I have been in lightning quick shrouds, eChronos that felt like at level runs, and some epic quests where there was more talking and joking than anything else. I have also been in the two hour Coal Chamber runs, the 45 minute Sane Asylums (for the FOURTH time, will you stop killing the Nightmare!!!), and other assorted disasters. Explaining to people what needs to be done and why, what they are doing wrong, and how they can improve their gear goes a lot farther than raging and quitting. I also realize that just because someone is good at something, it does not make them a good instructor or teacher.

And now I'm just rambling.....so I'll stop this here and see if I can better organize what I am trying to say tomorrow.

You sound not like a newb, but a good player. Don't fret. Really if you know what you need or put in the time and effort to learn then your fine.

[Hadrian]

You sound not like a newb, but a good player. Don't fret. Really if you know what you need or put in the time and effort to learn then your fine.

ShrPlz

[zex95966]

one thing people should be aware of is that it's actually easy to "look" like your doing something if everyone else is doing something too. with 4 melees swinging at a monster, I'm not sure how many people notice how much damage he's doing, whether or not he's hitting them, etc, when 3 of the other melees are doing great jobs, so the monster gets taken down fast.

I for one personally know a guy (family member of mine...) whose a lvl 17 fighter, takes skill points in heal, tumble, and put odd stats all over the place when he made him (17 intelligence, 11 charisma...)

He doesn't have a prestige either. I've told him about a lot of things, but he believes...whatever he believes and won't listen.
I also know he does raids with this toon (pug raids, as he is in his own guild with 2 people in it.)

Funny thing is, one time I actually got him to listen to me about one of his characters, he admits it's better than anything he's made himself, but still doesn't take my advice about other things.

[Lavek]

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10502942.jpg

[LolWutRoflstomped]

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/10502942.jpg

obv bro... obv!

[MarinMegara123]

Hey guys, there are plenty of good players on sarlona. If you run regular raids you will have people who will regularly be in your raid usually about 5-7 core people with the rest filling in with people who float in and out of your raid. There are a lot of people who only run in guild raids so you never see them pugging, while there are some good puggers out there who I love to get in my raids. With the last update a lot of things have changed and it is very difficult to take someone with little or no experience in an epic raid, I still take anyone into a TOD after I fill the necessary spots with people i know as it is pretty easy. I think the challenge is getting players to the next level so to speak. Pre-update I could take 4-6 people I knew and trusted and pug the rest in in the most difficult epics, that is not the case now. The end game epic raids are just longer, and well played and geared toons can easily complete them. I ran an Echrono this morning that went text book untill the main tank died on The abishai and then the back-up tank and a few more after that and it was going south real fast. We still completed becasue of the players skill in the raid and everyone working as a team. Those are the more memorable runs because ya pulled it out when it probably shoulda' failed. We have to overcome and adapt with the update changes to complete epic raids, teaching new players can work if they have gear and experience from easier epics and non-epic raids. When you are pugged into a group you have to remember who has the star, you have to listen and find out what the plan is and not try and tell the leader how to do the run or what is needed in it. Its funny that still happens to me about 1-2 times a week when I let in a pug. I have compelted over 300 EV6's, 150 Echrono's, 100 EDQ's, 150 TOD's and around 200 shrouds. I ran about 80-90% of them but people still wanna think they should run the group. Maybe its because people wont join thier group, I dunno. Anyway I really enjoy helping a new person and that is where the next best friend in game or guildie can and probably will come from. Anyway helping people get to that next level is a lot of fun, help em do the lower end raids, teach them how to complete the raid, how to do the shroud and help em get geared. take em throught the sub and VOD and HOX, then amrath and TOD which is still a kick in the pants. When you find that there is almost no gear out there that you would really like or want and have 10-15 Epic items on your toon with about a half dozen sitting in the bank, the only real challenge is help out your guidlies and buddies get what they want and share your knowledge of the game with those who want to listen and learn. Not everyone wants advice or will listen but at the risk of sounding corny "When the student is ready the master will appear". It is true, help enough people and you will find the ones that will listen and learn. Anyway just my 2 cents guys...


Thx
Glam/Juggernautte/Choh Proud memeber of Sarlonas Midnight Guardians

Hear Hear!!!! Thanks Jugg for taking my bards...im trying to share with my guildies what i have learned from you! Thank you very much!

[Seamonkeysix]

*snip*

Glam/Juggernautte/Choh Proud memeber of Sarlonas Midnight Guardians

I have run dozens of epics with Glam/Juggernautte/Choh. I can say that he does take the time in each epic to explain what is coming up and keeps good control of the party to make the chance of success the highest it can be. I have run the majority of these runs on an FvS and can say that his methods and experience keep SP pot usage to a minimum.

If you can get into one of his epic runs, I would recommend it. I have never seen him belittle anyone and he definitely knows how the epic raids work. Seems like Glam runs a lot of daytime raids. I would encourage players new to raids to watch for these groups.

[Taimasan]

I do think alot of great points have been made but I think that some of the blame should be placed on someone other than the person doing the berating. It is yourself. I started playing in September 2009 when Monks were considered trash. I knew nothing about DDO, nor MMOs but I knew I loved the Monk class and a vision of what it could be. When I was new, I got all sorts of tells when trying to join lfms, such as "Monks are no dps/No Monks/etc.". back then 2 years ago I remember being frantic thinking something was wrong with me, running solo and learning alot at that point from the asian players, they took me under their wings and taught me most I know, through language barrier and all. Then I had my confidence, I then put raids up that nobody would accept me for. You don't want me? Fine. I will put it up myself, I read guides and walkthroughs. I remember my first Von5 leading was straight from a walkthrough. Getting that first completion. Receiving that tell that says thanks for putting that up. Working with other new people to have runs that the older peeps would not let us in. Forging our ways through guilds, alliances, bitter enemies over petty dwarven-like squabbles, rises and falls, and bitter defeats and exiles. I sit back now and see how people list the top players, alot of names who i remember who were new. People who I fought side by side with. People who I lead and have lead me through combat, through heart pounding combat I have had my companions head my commands as I direct the flow of combat, resources, positioning and luck. And those moments are priceless when we achieve the "epic win". If you want it, then you have to take it. It will never be handed to you. And when you do achieve everything and if you do make it to the top, observe and look back how much you have sacrificed. Friends you have gained and lost, like leaves blowing, aging and flaking off in the wind. Then maybe you will see it is not about the gear, or the loot, or the "epic win", but what you stand for as a person and how you treat your fellow man with the friendships that we make. And if its Tl;dr for you, well, you can just go **** yerself mate.

[Hadrian]

I do think alot of great points have been made but I think that some of the blame should be placed on someone other than the person doing the berating. It is yourself. I started playing in September 2009 when Monks were considered trash. I knew nothing about DDO, nor MMOs but I knew I loved the Monk class and a vision of what it could be. When I was new, I got all sorts of tells when trying to join lfms, such as "Monks are no dps/No Monks/etc.". back then 2 years ago I remember being frantic thinking something was wrong with me, running solo and learning alot at that point from the asian players, they took me under their wings and taught me most I know, through language barrier and all. Then I had my confidence, I then put raids up that nobody would accept me for. You don't want me? Fine. I will put it up myself, I read guides and walkthroughs. I remember my first Von5 leading was straight from a walkthrough. Getting that first completion. Receiving that tell that says thanks for putting that up. Working with other new people to have runs that the older peeps would not let us in. Forging our ways through guilds, alliances, bitter enemies over petty dwarven-like squabbles, rises and falls, and bitter defeats and exiles. I sit back now and see how people list the top players, alot of names who i remember who were new. People who I fought side by side with. People who I lead and have lead me through combat, through heart pounding combat I have had my companions head my commands as I direct the flow of combat, resources, positioning and luck. And those moments are priceless when we achieve the "epic win". If you want it, then you have to take it. It will never be handed to you. And when you do achieve everything and if you do make it to the top, observe and look back how much you have sacrificed. Friends you have gained and lost, like leaves blowing, aging and flaking off in the wind. Then maybe you will see it is not about the gear, or the loot, or the "epic win", but what you stand for as a person and how you treat your fellow man with the friendships that we make. And if its Tl;dr for you, well, you can just go **** yerself mate.

Maybe this will help:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/606/01/

[Taimasan]

haters gonna hate

[Emag]

Sarlona does not only need more competency, but people that don't get offended by the slightest joke. Yes, amazing player skill can get you far, but a terrible personality gets you nowhere. I pretty much only run with my guild, and very few other guilds, and that's because most people can't take harsh criticism like my friends, and can't handle the truth and/or zerging. On another note of zerging, the main reason people zerg most quests is because we have ran them 100 times and just want to be done, it has nothing to do with wanting to watch who can die or some stupid idea like that. The endgame of Sarlona is a very close knit group. Very few people group with very few guilds, and quite honestly I see no signs of that changing. And to be honest, I'm fine with that, because chugging pots for others stupidity gets old quickly, or taking an hour instead of 20 minutes gets old. Maybe if people were willing to learn/listen this could be a different story.

[Ilindith]

I pretty much only run with my guild, and very few other guilds, and that's because most people can't take harsh criticism like my friends, and can't handle the truth and/or zerging.

Yeah you're so mean! You were all like if it's your first time in MA you should recall now and drop group, but I stayed!

Would have been funny if someone actually did it though.

[bendover]

haters gonna hate

Ain't that the truth bro

[Chai]

I've been harping on this issue for a while now. If people would have done what I was talking about two years ago in the myriad "F2P is ruining the game" threads, we wouldnt have this issue.

The issue isnt noobs suck. Thats a symptom of the REAL issue, which is that no one wants to invest the time to teach them how to play in these raids. Its all about investing in the quality of play on our respective servers. Not having done that, and we see the symptoms the issue produces.

Too many "know it or dont join" groups, which get a slightly faster completion for those who do know it in the short term, but doesnt provide for those people in the long run, because as the attrition loss of good players increases, so too does the ratio of those who dont know and cant hang in higher end content -vs- those who do and can.

Not teaching people how to play is a self perpetuating failure because of this, as when good players do leave the game, theres no one there to take their place in the ranks, creating an environment where there are less and less good players to group with, and more and more reasons to encourage attrition loss.

After digesting all that, now account for the fact that raids are being made harder, while the rest of the game is easier before raids. The bed has been made over and over on this issue for the last two years now, and here we are up in it, trying to figure out how to solve the problem, when we've known all along, but were just not willing to put the time and effort into it to make it happen.

[Dragonhyde]

Sarlona does not only need more competency, but people that don't get offended by the slightest joke. Yes, amazing player skill can get you far, but a terrible personality gets you nowhere. I pretty much only run with my guild, and very few other guilds, and that's because most people can't take harsh criticism like my friends, and can't handle the truth and/or zerging. On another note of zerging, the main reason people zerg most quests is because we have ran them 100 times and just want to be done, it has nothing to do with wanting to watch who can die or some stupid idea like that. The endgame of Sarlona is a very close knit group. Very few people group with very few guilds, and quite honestly I see no signs of that changing. And to be honest, I'm fine with that, because chugging pots for others stupidity gets old quickly, or taking an hour instead of 20 minutes gets old. Maybe if people were willing to learn/listen this could be a different story.
lol Kuff your still upset cuz i snuck into one of your raids :P you were this saying this stuff even before Sarlona :) way back when

[Ilindith]

I've been harping on this issue for a while now. If people would have done what I was talking about two years ago in the myriad "F2P is ruining the game" threads, we wouldnt have this issue.

The issue isnt noobs suck. Thats a symptom of the REAL issue, which is that no one wants to invest the time to teach them how to play in these raids. Its all about investing in the quality of play on our respective servers. Not having done that, and we see the symptoms the issue produces.

Too many "know it or dont join" groups, which get a slightly faster completion for those who do know it in the short term, but doesnt provide for those people in the long run, because as the attrition loss of good players increases, so too does the ratio of those who dont know and cant hang in higher end content -vs- those who do and can.

Not teaching people how to play is a self perpetuating failure because of this, as when good players do leave the game, theres no one there to take their place in the ranks, creating an environment where there are less and less good players to group with, and more and more reasons to encourage attrition loss.

After digesting all that, now account for the fact that raids are being made harder, while the rest of the game is easier before raids. The bed has been made over and over on this issue for the last two years now, and here we are up in it, trying to figure out how to solve the problem, when we've known all along, but were just not willing to put the time and effort into it to make it happen.

I love teaching others, but the average Sarlona player can't (insert bad word here) listen to instructions...

[silinteresting]

after reading all the above post im quite worried now as a new player. so far ive run only 2 raids both shroud. ive tried 4 times to get into the raid all times explaining by tell im new and learning(twice excepted and twice refused) but have to admit only refused because leaders explained they want a fast run(which i suppose is fair enough). my worry comes in the way is that i want to run epics eventually. i no right now im not geared for them so im not even asking, but from what im reading and hearing in game is that they are or are becoming a closed shop only open to the right guild or the right player who has proved themselves in pugs. now the proving themselves i have nothing against i hopfully intend to do that myself. the only open to the right guild tho im finding a bit tough as my guild consits of 3 people myself and 2 mates who i joined with(both of whom are casual players and by there own admisions will never exceed level 13/14 f2p players) i refuse to leave this guild to join another as there my friends and in truth i like running with them(another toon kept back to there level). so please keep in mind that some of us out there want to get better and will get better with your help but please just dont just rate people on what guild there in.

your friend sil :)

ps. it sounded so much better in my head oh well sry for the waffle lol

[flech]

If you can get into one of his epic runs, I would recommend it. I have never seen him belittle anyone and he definitely knows how the epic raids work. Seems like Glam runs a lot of daytime raids. I would encourage players new to raids to watch for these groups.

Yes, he will teach alot of people "how to raid" with his "PRIVATE, MG, PICKY" lfms. way to go.

[moops]

All melee 550+ HP, Caster and Healers 400+ HP.

[seskie1]

Well you guys are trying to hard, the secret to being a good player is to get in one of the premier guilds and you are set.
First you build good toons and play them well untill you get noticed by a premier guild and run with them untill they are under the impression that you fit in with them and invite you in. Now you are set and can follow any path to pikedom and I'll give you me as a example:
You make a uber melee, like I made a blitz with the best gear possible but the secret is you never use any boosts and rages becauses that requires pushing too many buttons.
You make a healer, like my fvs but you focus on damage not healing untill your guilds and friends pretty much give up on you healing and you can just fly around and dot w/e you remember. Blame everybody but yourself on your inability to heal and it will be all good.
You also roll up a few ac toons but never cap them because then you would have to contribute, just leave them in the 16ish range and log on them sometimes and just pop a few messages in guild chat about how uber your ac toon is.
Now the piking part, since to really arnt expected to heal or dps you can just run along with guildies and take random afks and because of your guild tag you will be let into most pugs and can pretty much pike your way thru that.
The key to being a good player is have some named gear invade you get myddod and be in a premier guild and you have it made, people will think you are a good player and as long as it looks lie you are keeping up, it's all good.



Ps: use dying to your advantage, just die a few times however, especially while leveling, and your guildies will assume you are just not feeling it and you can just sit back and reap the benefits.

Pss: Hopefuly none of my guildies and friends read this, cuz than I might have to start trying :/

[Allorian]

Yes, he will teach alot of people "how to raid" with his "PRIVATE, MG, PICKY" lfms. way to go.

Framario, dude I have taken you on my raids before. Do I really have to explain why I post the above? MG is to get guildies in 1st, Private is to get buddies in after I get in guildies, Picky is afterwards to make sure people are either known to me or my buddies/guildies or have raid loot and experience if I pug them into the group. I only do this for Epic raids as all others are pretty easy. I dunno dude maybe you are just not feeling the love, hit me if ya wanna get into one of my raids, you know you are welcome to get in. Anyway have a good one.


Thx
Glam/Juggernutte/Choh

[Allorian]

I have run dozens of epics with Glam/Juggernautte/Choh. I can say that he does take the time in each epic to explain what is coming up and keeps good control of the party to make the chance of success the highest it can be. I have run the majority of these runs on an FvS and can say that his methods and experience keep SP pot usage to a minimum.

If you can get into one of his epic runs, I would recommend it. I have never seen him belittle anyone and he definitely knows how the epic raids work. Seems like Glam runs a lot of daytime raids. I would encourage players new to raids to watch for these groups.


Hear Hear!!!! Thanks Jugg for taking my bards...im trying to share with my guildies what i have learned from you! Thank you very much!

Thx for the shout out guys,...now if i can just get you guys to join MG....J/k. Thx for joining me on those runs and I'll see ya in the game.


Thx
Glam/Choh/Juggernutte

[flech]

Framario, dude I have taken you on my raids before. Do I really have to explain why I post the above? MG is to get guildies in 1st, Private is to get buddies in after I get in guildies, Picky is afterwards to make sure people are either known to me or my buddies/guildies or have raid loot and experience if I pug them into the group. I only do this for Epic raids as all others are pretty easy. I dunno dude maybe you are just not feeling the love, hit me if ya wanna get into one of my raids, you know you are welcome to get in. Anyway have a good one.


Thx
Glam/Juggernutte/Choh


Just saying you can't teach alot of people the content due to the above, like other person/people say.

Think imma pass on that invite since me and MG got some issues, but thanks tho.

[darkniteyogi]

ddo has a bit of a reputation for having alot of elitists, and for good reason. It takes a while to learn the game.
It's intimidating to join unfamiliar PUGs for raids and i only have a couple of times (outside my guild).

The thought of the stress that happens every other run when one obnoxious oldtimer complains and whines about something, or a newbie who doesn't listen or understand.

I am tolerant of newbies messing things up. You have to learn. If they don't learn or listen, then they'll eventually not succeed in the game and quit or they will learn eventually and progress. I really hate the multiple TR whiners. And that attitude is what makes the game a stressful and unfun place to be in. The good players with attitude problems are the ones that stay in the game, not the noobs. They're the ones who need to be nicer.

[Galeria]

Glam/Choh is one of the most professional end-gamers on the server and a top notch leader; excellent communication and teamwork.

It may not be as easy to get into one of his runs, but if you do, there's little drama and a well-organized run. And the obligatory pitch to join MG. ;)

[LolWutRoflstomped]

Classic Sarlona. Glam a good player... Classic....

[Drekisen]

Make sure that before you run epics or any of the difficult raids you have EVERY piece of raid gear loot that you need so then when you do join, you are able to contibute and not just pike.



Sorry, but this is an absolutely absurd request and the reason WHY there are so many "BAD" players....LOL

[Ilindith]

Sorry, but this is an absolutely absurd request and the reason WHY there are so many "BAD" players....LOL

I run with **** gear and I did epics today! wooooooo!

[Chai]

I love teaching others, but the average Sarlona player can't (insert bad word here) listen to instructions...

I see this one tossed back at me alot, but I dont believe its true. Over the years I have found that most CAN and WILL listen to instructions. Its the small number of those who dont do this who end up doing alot of damage, and messing it up for those who want to learn. One idiot can do more damage than 11 players can repair in many of these higher end quests and raids, and not teaching the newer players how to roll with us basically created a breeding ground for exactly what many are trying to avoid.

Whens the last time you saw an abbot LFM up that didnt say "know a puzzle" or something similar? Its the true calling card of "know it or dont join". The veteran players are sending the message that they want their completions without having to put up with the growing pains of newer players learning, which seems fine right up to and until the rising attrition loss exposed the lack of quality play in the average player.

Its akin to a football team whose coach only trains the first string players. The minute one of your CBs and one of your safetys is injured, they are replaced with some wet behind the ears league minimum paid green second stringer, and every single QB throws to that part of the field decimating their D. The other 9 guys on the field dont even matter, heh. At the top end, Sarlona has a Pro Bowl NFL vet style line up of first stringers, but every one of them who stops playing or doesnt show up for a few weeks gets replaced with a junior varsity high schooler. :p

[LoveNeverFails]

Whens the last time you saw an abbot LFM up that didnt say "know a puzzle" or something similar? Its the true calling card of "know it or dont join". The veteran players are sending the message that they want their completions without having to put up with the growing pains of newer players learning, which seems fine right up to and until the rising attrition loss exposed the lack of quality play in the average player.


I'm not even flagged for Abbott for this precise reason. I'd never be able to get into a run, because EVERY abbott run i see up says this exactly.

Chai, i also really like your football analogy, but unfortunately i must spread before i can +1 you again. :)

[despisen]

I believe slothinator hit it right on.

I rolled a toon based on someones advice that I thought knew the game well. While the toon is great fun to play, it would be considered gimp now. So if I can get one last shroud in I will TR him, the +1 ench. will be great for my ench. PM. So please let the gimpy looking bard in.

So not knowing anyone and joining an extremely small guild has led to me pugging. Which is fine, I have capped 2 toons and have gotten to run with some of the best toons on the server. But you do not have guild raids, which leads to pug raids, which leads to (especially now) know the raid and don't be a . . .

So I too have not run ToD, VoD, or DQ. Never event finish flagging for Lit. Some of it is my fault, I look to see if they have enough arcanes and don't join if it looks like it. I also don't join the raids if it says know the quest, because to me it means you should have run it and know what to expect.

Yes I can follow instructions and I will, until doing the same thing you tell me to do kills me twice in like 3 minutes, then I will do what I feel is probably better because it cannot be worse. And yes if I would have done it again I would have died again, it was just stupid. I actually did a run with the Chinese and without being able to communicate verbally was able to do the things they wanted me to, it was a great run.

Yeah and if you are going to call me out on join on date, yeah that is because the account I use was created before they made the changes to account names, so mine has special characters in it.

I want to get better and will listen and try different things.

So if you see someone do something and you know there is a better way to do it, say something, but do it in a helpful way. I am a good sorc player, but I am still learning how to play a wizard pm with enchantment focus for when I TR my bard. I also have to solo stuff since I am reliant on pugs, for me solo and group end up being two different play styles, sometimes I switch into the wrong style.

[Vint]

Thats a symptom of the REAL issue, which is that no one wants to invest the time to teach them how to play in these raids. Its all about investing in the quality of play on our respective servers. Not having done that, and we see the symptoms the issue produces.

I would +1 you if I could. While I completely agree, I take issue with the lack of will by alot of newer or less experienced players. I dont feel that I am better than any other player, but it took time and experience to get to the level I play at today. Most people that jump off the boat now adays want epic items with in their first five minutes of playing. I am not saying you have to play an x amount of time to earn anything.

When we started this game years ago we all learned together there was no Lama to test things. We had to tests different tactics to defeat things in an efficent manner. Now that most people that are experienced put up an LFM for crucible or any leveling quests, "vets" know what to do and just run thru it. Maybe it is the fault of the party leader or members for not explaining everything thru the run, but how often does the "unexperienced" person run thru with the group and then go back and solo, or read on what they might have missed in the quest?

I am no better than anyone else, but if the "unexperienced" people dont want to help themselves, then why should I help? Everyone should have fun in this game, but remember those elitest buttholes didn't get good overnight. It took time for them to get a good understanding of the mechanics and simple know how of the game.

[Thaxlsillyia]

are the ones that are posted by first timers looking for somebody to guide them through some quest...
everybody goes bananas over "he should not start a group if he does not know the quest" which i think is silly. and god save the newb who decides to pass the star to the "vet" who joins such a group.
its not the lack of ppl wanting to learn something but lack of patience amongst those playing he game for a longer time.

on the otherhand i have met some truely aweful ppl. like the awesometastic guy who decides to pick up and delete the required turn in item in evon2 when instructed not to pick it up in the first place :D or the dude who picks up the wrong trinket when running elite litany-mentau when told not to touch the table. one just hopes he wont repeat it with another group.

ps - i have also noticed that men have a harder time following instructions in a quest they are new to compared to women. or may be its just reflective of the playing population.

[qwert_yuiop]

Framario, dude I have taken you on my raids before. Do I really have to explain why I post the above? MG is to get guildies in 1st, Private is to get buddies in after I get in guildies, Picky is afterwards to make sure people are either known to me or my buddies/guildies or have raid loot and experience if I pug them into the group. I only do this for Epic raids as all others are pretty easy. I dunno dude maybe you are just not feeling the love, hit me if ya wanna get into one of my raids, you know you are welcome to get in. Anyway have a good one.


Thx
Glam/Juggernutte/Choh


i have run my wiz a few times with his evon6 runs and they have been some of the better organised ones, atleast better than many a raid-izzles. if you were not a big tool chances are you will get a tell asking if you are interested in joining the next time their lfm is up. i have never heard him/MG berate a new player for not having run evon before or for having less than the best gear around. just more time spent explaining things.

[Sarisa]

Good gameplay is not the only thing that makes a great player. I'll avoid some groups that I know will succeed with minimal resource use simply because I don't want to be treated like their servant, or worse.

As for teaching, and new players, I've seen both.

I've been in a HoX recently on my bard, where there were a few new players. We explained everything on the way down, we gave a nice overview of what's everyone's role should be, and had a little guidance (when the outside runners split up a bit too much) during the raid. It was smooth, and the players thanked us for teaching them.

I've also been in an eVoN2 recently, with a mostly qualified group, and a player:
1. Triggered an unnecessary Beholder spawn even when we asked him not to go there.
2. Fell, so the leader (our caster) went down to DDoor him out, which puts the quest items in front of Orphne. He then went over, picked them up, and proceeded to "drop them" by deleting them from his inventory. Even after being told if you don't know the quest, please don't touch anything.
3. Was a Warforged fighter with no healing amp and no Healer's Friend 1. After seeing how low my aura was hitting (thought I was hitting a WF Arcane), I hit him with a heal scroll to test and it hit him for 85.

That run would have went fine if that player simply asked what was going on, rather than ignore everyone and proceed to screw up or possibly actively grief.

When you're looking for fast and easy completions, taking a new player who asks a lot of questions might get annoying at times, and slow down the zerg, but it's overall better for the game since that person shows they want to learn, and they WILL become a better player.


I'm not even flagged for Abbott for this precise reason. I'd never be able to get into a run, because EVERY abbott run i see up says this exactly.


Some groups at least, if you message the leader, will still take you. There is room to teach one or two new players each run. The group I regularly run Abbot with has taken a new player on the last 4 or 5 runs. They sleep in 'Roids, but are asked to keep watch of what's going on. While all that's going on, those of us waiting or in ice will explain a bit about what's going on.

After the raid, we'll have them practice with Ice Wands and Boulders so they will be able to contribute more later.

There used to be a few more training runs, but with the change in the Abbot's HP, along with the lack of scaling between difficulties, it takes ridiculously long to beat him down in a shortmanned group in order to get to the puzzle to practice.


Framario, dude I have taken you on my raids before. Do I really have to explain why I post the above? MG is to get guildies in 1st, Private is to get buddies in after I get in guildies, Picky is afterwards to make sure people are either known to me or my buddies/guildies or have raid loot and experience if I pug them into the group. I only do this for Epic raids as all others are pretty easy. I dunno dude maybe you are just not feeling the love, hit me if ya wanna get into one of my raids, you know you are welcome to get in. Anyway have a good one.

Sorry Glam, I liked running with you, but I get really annoyed when you make people wait 20-30 minutes in the LFM panel even though they've run EV6 with you 10-15 times before.


ps - i have also noticed that men have a harder time following instructions in a quest they are new to compared to women. or may be its just reflective of the playing population.

Probably purely psychological. Men, especially those who are attracted to the power-gaming play style, don't usually want to appear less informed or knowledgeable. Most women, at least, are more likely to admit they've never done something before and are willing to ask.

This happens in real life as well, think of the common but oh-so-true jokes about men lost in the middle of nowhere but still refusing to ask the gas station attendant for directions.

[Astraghal]

Good gameplay is not the only thing that makes a great player. I'll avoid some groups that I know will succeed with minimal resource use simply because I don't want to be treated like their servant, or worse.

As for teaching, and new players, I've seen both.

I've been in a HoX recently on my bard, where there were a few new players. We explained everything on the way down, we gave a nice overview of what's everyone's role should be, and had a little guidance (when the outside runners split up a bit too much) during the raid. It was smooth, and the players thanked us for teaching them.

I've also been in an eVoN2 recently, with a mostly qualified group, and a player:
1. Triggered an unnecessary Beholder spawn even when we asked him not to go there.
2. Fell, so the leader (our caster) went down to DDoor him out, which puts the quest items in front of Orphne. He then went over, picked them up, and proceeded to "drop them" by deleting them from his inventory. Even after being told if you don't know the quest, please don't touch anything.
3. Was a Warforged fighter with no healing amp and no Healer's Friend 1. After seeing how low my aura was hitting (thought I was hitting a WF Arcane), I hit him with a heal scroll to test and it hit him for 85.

That run would have went fine if that player simply asked what was going on, rather than ignore everyone and proceed to screw up or possibly actively grief.

When you're looking for fast and easy completions, taking a new player who asks a lot of questions might get annoying at times, and slow down the zerg, but it's overall better for the game since that person shows they want to learn, and they WILL become a better player.



Some groups at least, if you message the leader, will still take you. There is room to teach one or two new players each run. The group I regularly run Abbot with has taken a new player on the last 4 or 5 runs. They sleep in 'Roids, but are asked to keep watch of what's going on. While all that's going on, those of us waiting or in ice will explain a bit about what's going on.

After the raid, we'll have them practice with Ice Wands and Boulders so they will be able to contribute more later.

There used to be a few more training runs, but with the change in the Abbot's HP, along with the lack of scaling between difficulties, it takes ridiculously long to beat him down in a shortmanned group in order to get to the puzzle to practice.



Sorry Glam, I liked running with you, but I get really annoyed when you make people wait 20-30 minutes in the LFM panel even though they've run EV6 with you 10-15 times before.



Probably purely psychological. Men, especially those who are attracted to the power-gaming play style, don't usually want to appear less informed or knowledgeable. Most women, at least, are more likely to admit they've never done something before and are willing to ask.

This happens in real life as well, think of the common but oh-so-true jokes about men lost in the middle of nowhere but still refusing to ask the gas station attendant for directions.

+1

I'm not sure about how the dynamics of the game are for women in general (although I doubt they ever have trouble getting in good groups) but I agree with most of what you posted. There's nothing worse that applying to an LFM that someone you have run key roles in raids with many times and still get asked about build and gear. Pretentious gits.

[grgurius]

If you don't know the quest, read wiki. See what the quest is like. They have a great section on what spells, spell pen, and other great knowledge there.


I actually had a well informed first timer last night in my abbot run.
First i got a tell asking if i would accept a first timer. Sure, why not.
After accepting him, conversation was priceless (for me at least):

Me: So how much do you know about this raid, if you know anything.
Pugger: We go in, beat abbot down a bit, then three portals open leading to the puzzles.
Me: Ok, three puzzles are roids, tiles and ice.
Pugger: Yeah, in roids we need to shoot down incoming asteroids, ice involves somekind of jumping across the water, and tiles is leading someone across invisible tiles. Not sure how any of them work tho.
Me: Ok, you'll be in roids for the first time, when you zone in, just type /sleep and observe.
Me: After we solve the puzzles we need to beat abbot again, but he'll have some special attacks this time, notably inferno and incasement.
Pugger: We use asteroids to break people from encasement, and inferno involves something about jumping on the ice pad somewhere in the water.
Me: Ice pad will be in the east, think you got your basics covered.
Pugger: What kind of spells should i use agains abbot?
Me: Disintegrate and fire spells above lvl4.
Pugger: Does acid work?
Me: Dunno actually.
Pugger: Sec, checking the wiki.

I wish more puggers were like this guy.

Edit: Thelanis btw, so i have no idea whats the situation on Sarlona, but on Thelanis we have a good mix of people that are willing to learn and those who usually respond with "don't tell me how to run my char" on their 6 con no fort characters.

[toukai]

I have a suggestion; teach me.

No, seriously. I have two level 20 toons, and a level 18, and I have not run hardly any of the quests you mentioned. Heck, I've been playing for 2 years and I have never even seen the inside of ADQ or Zawabi's. I've never run TOD (flagged, but no boots), HOX, or eVON6. Abbot - nope. Why? Because I'm tired of the sighs, huffs, and other remarks when I join runs and announce it is my first time.

My first VOD, I was verbally accosted for 5 minutes by someone in the group who couldn't believe I was a level 20 and had never run VOD. When I said I also had not run HOX, he practically came unglued. I received similar reactions my first times on Titan and eChrono.

Thing is, I want to run these quests and raids. I like challenges, and I really like loot. I also understand someone that is running VOD for the 40th time is tired of explaining it. However, you cannot complain (by you, I do not mean you Unreliable, I mean 'you' in the general sense) that newbs are ruining your raids if you are not willing to take one aside and teach them the ropes. Having my toon or my experience insulted makes me (and I'm sure others) not want to try again.

So my suggestion is teach the newbs. Take us under your wings and into your guild runs, and make us better players. Explain what we are doing and why we are doing it. If you MyDDO one of my toons and decide I do not make the grade for your group, please tell me why. If you want a better player pool to pull from, you have be willing to make the newbs better players.

this is the main problem....

You must tell in your guild that you want learn to do some quest/raids/epics... This is the job of your guild.

Im a guild leader in ghallanda and if any guildie tell me that he want learn to do anything we go with him to teach him.

I dont know how is the sarlona state but... If your guilds dont teach you. You will have problems...

[Yan_PL]

On my first abbot (which I pugged as a member of not very active guild) I was kind of prepared because I've read the guide on the forum. I told leader that I am first timer, but I've read guide and i want to try roids. He accepted me. Roid section went without a hitch, abbot was beaten down shortly thereafter.

To be honest, abbot-wise, if you see LFM "send tell with known puzzles", if you send "i know none, but I can scout or sleep in roids", you might get accepted.

[slothinator]

this is the main problem....

You must tell in your guild that you want learn to do some quest/raids/epics... This is the job of your guild.

Im a guild leader in ghallanda and if any guildie tell me that he want learn to do anything we go with him to teach him.

I dont know how is the sarlona state but... If your guilds dont teach you. You will have problems...

I will say this is a valid point. I am in one of those "come one, come all" guilds, and we do not have any organized events. Guild chat is pretty much a Q&A for new players and a trade channel for the higher levels. Maybe it's time for me to leave the kiddie table and sit with the grown-ups.

[MsEricka]

There are countless numbers of good players on Sarlona. Most of them do not pug which is why you don't see them.

That is the issue you need to resolve, and it's a pretty big hurdle to jump.

[Chai]

There are countless numbers of good players on Sarlona. Most of them do not pug which is why you don't see them.

That is the issue you need to resolve, and it's a pretty big hurdle to jump.

Yeap, getting into the channels where most of them lurk means being a good player. Its a catch 22. Most of the players in the channels use those channels to segregate themselves away from those who havent learned yet, which gets them faster completions in the short term, but in the long term, doesnt really help shore up the "too many sub par players" symptom.

When the issue becomes the most visible is when enough attrition loss had occurred where those good players who are left have to step outside their comfort zone and let some puggers into the group / raid just to have a full party. Hilarity ensues due to the level of build / game play differences and disparities, and then we get on the boards and harp on the fact that there arent enough good players. :p

[GrampaBill]

I have come to believe that a major hit in problems regarding "people don't listen" is due to language issues. You can yell and scream all you want at the guy that keeps smacking on the elemental in part 5 of the shroud, but if all he speaks is a northern dialect of Brataslava, the behavior's not going to stop. It's sometimes solved by typing in party chat "YORTEK!!! STOP!!!", but it's a crapshoot.

I don't know what the solution to the language barrier is, but I've had to resort to Goggle Translate to try and get someone to stop walking across the scorpion spawns in Coal Chamber.

[gfunk]

No I am not talking about a server merge, that would just mix more noobs in with us, making things more complicated and in a way... much worse.

I am talking about more ''good'' players. People who can competantly run eChrono, eVon6, eDQ and actually bring a strong contribution to the grooup. Dont get me wrong - I am not arguing with the challenge level of the raids, because if anything for the level of loot you get get they are in the right challenge area, if anything, still too easy - I am just getting very tired of having to wait for the same 30-40 ''good'' players to log on so we can run an eChrono. It seems when none of the ''good'' players are on, it is very difficult to get a competant group up.

I do not know the exact solution to this problem, the DDO community is too small to really have some sort of server filter or anything along those lines - but I am wondering if anyone else has suggestions? I know being in an active guild is one idea, but I like to be able to log on and run whatever raid I want... That way I do not feel constricted to any sort of time schedule.

Anyway, I am going to leave the debating to the Sarlonites - anyone have any other suggestions? How we can rally up some more ''good'' people? (Also please keep any jokes and BS out of this thread, thanks)


There are lots of great players on the server, though perhaps they are harder to find nowadays because of the increased server population. I remember before ftp seeing times when there were only 1 or 2 lfm's for the entire server, and you knew most of the people online. Now I look at the lfm's and hardly recognize a name.

Best way to have more good players is to be part of the solution (i.e. help train em up). It doesn't take anything special to be "good", just the ability to listen and the opportunity to learn.

[Sethus]

I actually had a well informed first timer last night in my abbot run.
First i got a tell asking if i would accept a first timer. Sure, why not.
After accepting him, conversation was priceless (for me at least):

Me: So how much do you know about this raid, if you know anything.
Pugger: We go in, beat abbot down a bit, then three portals open leading to the puzzles.
Me: Ok, three puzzles are roids, tiles and ice.
Pugger: Yeah, in roids we need to shoot down incoming asteroids, ice involves somekind of jumping across the water, and tiles is leading someone across invisible tiles. Not sure how any of them work tho.
Me: Ok, you'll be in roids for the first time, when you zone in, just type /sleep and observe.
Me: After we solve the puzzles we need to beat abbot again, but he'll have some special attacks this time, notably inferno and incasement.
Pugger: We use asteroids to break people from encasement, and inferno involves something about jumping on the ice pad somewhere in the water.
Me: Ice pad will be in the east, think you got your basics covered.
Pugger: What kind of spells should i use agains abbot?
Me: Disintegrate and fire spells above lvl4.
Pugger: Does acid work?
Me: Dunno actually.
Pugger: Sec, checking the wiki.

I wish more puggers were like this guy.

Edit: Thelanis btw, so i have no idea whats the situation on Sarlona, but on Thelanis we have a good mix of people that are willing to learn and those who usually respond with "don't tell me how to run my char" on their 6 con no fort characters.

I like this guy. A buddy of mine and i run Abbot like clockwork and i would definitely appreciate any new people who do this exact thing. Acquainting yourself with a quest/raid before you do it is always a bonus if it's going to be your first time. Now, i can't speak for my friend, but if you see me leading an Abbot i'm always happy to take new people and help them learn, so long as i have all my bases covered first. Unfortunately with that raid you really need 8 or 9 vets at least so you know you have a shot at completing. Kind of a bummer you can really only let 2 or 3 new people in at a time unless you want to fail more than a few times.

Ultimately. We all need to be better about helpin out new people.

[Darkrok]

I'm a good player...I know the parts of the game I've been allowed to play pretty well. I listen when in a new raid and learn from my mistakes. I'm fairly good at seeing what needs to be done and doing it if it's not covered in the instructions given (ie breaking off dps on a bard in ToD and heal/recon scrolling the tank if it's obvious the healer can't keep up, etc).

That said, based on the criteria that most of the posters here have stated for being a 'good' player most of them won't get to group with me.

I'm in a guild where I like the people. We don't do teaching raids...we mess around mostly. I don't plan on leaving the guild so I'm not in a 'known guild'. Strike one.

When I'm leveling up I primarily group with people in this 'unknown guild'. I'm not likely to run into many of the 'good' players while leveling. Strike two.

Most of my toons lack epic items because I don't run a ton of epics. I don't mind running them but I TR quite a bit and enjoy the leveling up part of the game just as much as the 'end game'. Grinding epics requires a focus only on the level 20 game and as such it's doubtful I'll have a bunch of them. I gear intelligently given my assets available to me but some of my toons have below average gear. I never skimp on the HP gear (always have GFL, +6 con, Toughness as soon as possible) but as far as dripping with epics...not even close. Strike three.

I'm fine with that honestly. I'm willing to step up and do my best when invited. I'm willing to learn from my mistakes and take some criticism. Actually received some well deserved criticism about my hp's on my 18/2 wizrog in a recent Epic DQ...it's a leveling build that doesn't really belong in an Epic DQ because of some decisions I made as well as the lack of a GS hp item yet - still 8 completions away from cleansing stone. Happy to LR by the way but don't have the points nor plat for a heart...I'll finish out my completions for DQ/Shroud/Reaver and TR and accept the criticism about my 12 starting con and lack of greensteel hp item until then.

But according to the 'rules' here - be in the right guilds, be known, or have epics/raid loots - most of my toons wouldn't make it. Probably the only one that can get in is my Warforged Bard and that's only because I made the choice to go nuts on hp's there which makes him look uber even though his gear is ordinary.

If it's gear that makes the player good then no, I'm not good. Adequate maybe but not good. If it's knowledge of the raids then I'd say I'm only a good player in Shroud, Reaver, and VoD and getting there in DQ. If it's intelligence, humility, and a willingness to learn that makes a good player then yes, I'm a good player. I just doubt many people posting here will get to witness that. Not while I pick my guild based on playing with some people I like that I've met in game, don't play nearly enough to deck out every one of my toons with two dual-shard greensteel items or epics, and run primarily with my friends. Again, doesn't really bother me. I'm good enough to get by with gimp gear in most places and the places where I can't...well, I won't get invited to them anyways. ;)

[Darkrok]

I like this guy. A buddy of mine and i run Abbot like clockwork and i would definitely appreciate any new people who do this exact thing. Acquainting yourself with a quest/raid before you do it is always a bonus if it's going to be your first time. Now, i can't speak for my friend, but if you see me leading an Abbot i'm always happy to take new people and help them learn, so long as i have all my bases covered first. Unfortunately with that raid you really need 8 or 9 vets at least so you know you have a shot at completing. Kind of a bummer you can really only let 2 or 3 new people in at a time unless you want to fail more than a few times.

Ultimately. We all need to be better about helpin out new people.

Yeah, Abbot's been tough for me. I've applied to 4 groups now being honest with them - haven't run the raid before, read the wiki, willing to learn.

Turned down all 4 times.

I'll run into a group that'll take me someday but I'm not sweating it.

[moops]

I'm a good player...I know the parts of the game I've been allowed to play pretty well. I listen when in a new raid and learn from my mistakes. I'm fairly good at seeing what needs to be done and doing it if it's not covered in the instructions given (ie breaking off dps on a bard in ToD and heal/recon scrolling the tank if it's obvious the healer can't keep up, etc).

That said, based on the criteria that most of the posters here have stated for being a 'good' player most of them won't get to group with me.

I'm in a guild where I like the people. We don't do teaching raids...we mess around mostly. I don't plan on leaving the guild so I'm not in a 'known guild'. Strike one.

When I'm leveling up I primarily group with people in this 'unknown guild'. I'm not likely to run into many of the 'good' players while leveling. Strike two.

Most of my toons lack epic items because I don't run a ton of epics. I don't mind running them but I TR quite a bit and enjoy the leveling up part of the game just as much as the 'end game'. Grinding epics requires a focus only on the level 20 game and as such it's doubtful I'll have a bunch of them. I gear intelligently given my assets available to me but some of my toons have below average gear. I never skimp on the HP gear (always have GFL, +6 con, Toughness as soon as possible) but as far as dripping with epics...not even close. Strike three.

I'm fine with that honestly. I'm willing to step up and do my best when invited. I'm willing to learn from my mistakes and take some criticism. Actually received some well deserved criticism about my hp's on my 18/2 wizrog in a recent Epic DQ...it's a leveling build that doesn't really belong in an Epic DQ because of some decisions I made as well as the lack of a GS hp item yet - still 8 completions away from cleansing stone. Happy to LR by the way but don't have the points nor plat for a heart...I'll finish out my completions for DQ/Shroud/Reaver and TR and accept the criticism about my 12 starting con and lack of greensteel hp item until then.

But according to the 'rules' here - be in the right guilds, be known, or have epics/raid loots - most of my toons wouldn't make it. Probably the only one that can get in is my Warforged Bard and that's only because I made the choice to go nuts on hp's there which makes him look uber even though his gear is ordinary.

If it's gear that makes the player good then no, I'm not good. Adequate maybe but not good. If it's knowledge of the raids then I'd say I'm only a good player in Shroud, Reaver, and VoD and getting there in DQ. If it's intelligence, humility, and a willingness to learn that makes a good player then yes, I'm a good player. I just doubt many people posting here will get to witness that. Not while I pick my guild based on playing with some people I like that I've met in game, don't play nearly enough to deck out every one of my toons with two dual-shard greensteel items or epics, and run primarily with my friends. Again, doesn't really bother me. I'm good enough to get by with gimp gear in most places and the places where I can't...well, I won't get invited to them anyways. ;)

If you put some of your alts in your sig, some of us can look out for you. . .And plz read all the posts, there are just as many posts saying that the gear doesn't matter, that teaching is good, and listening is most important:)

[Munkenmo]

Yeah, Abbot's been tough for me. I've applied to 4 groups now being honest with them - haven't run the raid before, read the wiki, willing to learn.

Turned down all 4 times.

I'll run into a group that'll take me someday but I'm not sweating it.

p.m me your alts and i'll look for you in the who list next time i'm forming a group.

[Darkrok]

If you put some of your alts in your sig, some of us can look out for you. . .And plz read all the posts, there are just as many posts saying that the gear doesn't matter, that teaching is good, and listening is most important:)


p.m me your alts and i'll look for you in the who list next time i'm forming a group.

Sorry about that...I'm terrible about keeping stuff like that updated so I never added it here. I put the 20's in the sig but I've got a ton of toons beyond that I play as the mood strikes, my crafter Ayrn and a bunch of toons whose names start with Taja would cover most of them. :)

[Quikster]

Sorry about that...I'm terrible about keeping stuff like that updated so I never added it here. I put the 20's in the sig but I've got a ton of toons beyond that I play as the mood strikes, my crafter Ayrn and a bunch of toons whose names start with Taja would cover most of them. :)

Guild name helps too.

When I was first getting to end game it was a little different then it is now, but similar attitudes were held by the vets.

There were far less people around, and if you were good everyone knew you.

Most of the end game players knew just about all the regular guilds that lasted more than a week or two.

If you got a certain rep (bad or good) it was hard to shake.

Most people running multiple raids in a night were interested in getting through them all fairly efficiently.

The game was also a little different. The shroud was just coming out. Nobody had shroud weapons. The cap had just gone up to 16. In order to do a von you had to run 1-4 again, dq you had to run wiz king, chains, and oob again as well. Joining an in progress dq flaggin and not knowing your way was usually an issue.

However at that time there was no tring not many people had 1 of every possible class combination at cap and multiple tomes banked (well you could eat them at lvl 1 then :) ) Leveling could still be fast but you learned a lot more then. The first time through some of the quests was truly epic (stk for example. That with no rogue and a bunch of nubs could mean hours in that fire trap room).

When I decided to start raiding I was honest. I always sent the leader of an lfm a tell asking if they minded a new guy (from a guild most didnt know). Sometimes I got declined and other times I was accepted. I tried to read guides on raids before I did them. I asked people about them, I made sure I was flagged etc. When I eventually got into raids I tried to follow instructions and ask a few questions when appropriate. I also tried not to be annoying by talking all the time or about stuff that didnt apply (or about how uber I was) etc.

After doing this a little and being patient, I was accepted to enough end game raids to start collecting loot and pretty soon start leading my own raids. Now I just pike though :)

In other words keep doing what your doing, you'll be fine unless you are really annoying the heck out of people :)

[Bakarne]

Assuming I can get my usual core of people together for goggles, ice, and wands, we will be running Abbot on Tuesday somewhere between 6-8pm EST (can't be more specific than that, sorry).

Look for my LFM under Vhira, and even if my LFM says something like "be 100% competent in roids", we can take 6 or 7 people completely new to the raid as long as I'm informed before hand as to exactly what experience people have. Abbot isn't a raid you really learn entirely in one completion, but our goal is completions and that includes tomorrow's raid. Asteroids is where first timers will go, but if you're already confident in roids, I can take one or two extra in goggles.

Like Titan (with crystals and laser), anyone who really wants to learn Abbot should stay after completion to play with remaining ice wands and boulders.

However, all melees should have blunt+good weapons (ideally holy+disruption/undead bane), and for casters, know that the Abbot is immune to negative energy, ice, lightning (LitIIs!), and spells level 4 and below.

[Ilindith]

When I decided to start raiding I was honest. I always sent the leader of an lfm a tell asking if they minded a new guy (from a guild most didnt know). Sometimes I got declined and other times I was accepted. I tried to read guides on raids before I did them. I asked people about them, I made sure I was flagged etc. When I eventually got into raids I tried to follow instructions and ask a few questions when appropriate. I also tried not to be annoying by talking all the time or about stuff that didnt apply (or about how uber I was) etc.

THIS! It's so easy to ask leader if he/she minds having a new person in group. Do it!

It also shows that you are willing to learn and that's usually more than enough to get you in a group even if it's posted as "know quest" or whatever.

[JasonJi72]

Personally, I think a lot of us 'new' players aren't so new anymore. We may not have 4-6 years experience, but we are starting to figure out the game pretty well. I am in a guild with a buddy who started playing at the same time as me. It's a small guild, but it works for me. I have been in some of the larger guilds, but I didn't like the drama, or got booted for not logging my character in a while.

You see, I have a severe case of alt-itis. I have leveled every class well into the teens quite a few times. So, name recognition is kinda out the window.

That's two strikes for me.

I really hate doing the same thing over and over and over and over and.... you get the picture.

Well, I am trying to work with my alt-itis and being known problem by going the TR route. And no, I did not take the time to get all the max gear I could before TRing. Yes I was told that I had to do that first, but I don't really understand why. Leveling is easy, and I already have a lot of good gear. *shrugs*

I figure eventually, I'll get into the 'end game' to see what all the hooplah is about. I'm sure I will enjoy it, because I love a challenge, and I am a good player. The only thing is that I consider this to be a game, and having fun is the number one priority.

To the 'vets' who don't want to teach. Don't worry guys, we got this. We are learning and have been learning for some time now, and we are teaching the new players. From the way I've seen some TR vets playing, you guys could learn some things from us as well.

If you ever see a comical LFM that says something like BYOM! Bring Your Own Mouse! No Exceptions! It might be me. :)

Cya in game! Have fun!

[Lavek]

I like this guy. A buddy of mine and i run Abbot like clockwork and i would definitely appreciate any new people who do this exact thing. Acquainting yourself with a quest/raid before you do it is always a bonus if it's going to be your first time. Now, i can't speak for my friend, but if you see me leading an Abbot i'm always happy to take new people and help them learn, so long as i have all my bases covered first. Unfortunately with that raid you really need 8 or 9 vets at least so you know you have a shot at completing. Kind of a bummer you can really only let 2 or 3 new people in at a time unless you want to fail more than a few times.

Ultimately. We all need to be better about helpin out new people.

man...Im so gonna miss abbot this week :(

[Darkrok]

You see, I have a severe case of alt-itis. I have leveled every class well into the teens quite a few times. So, name recognition is kinda out the window.

That's my other issue. I've got a TRx2, getting ready to start a TRx2 on Toolbots, and have another TRx1. I'll decide to check out a build sometimes and spend a couple weeks leveling it up to the 12-16 range and sometimes get it to cap. I do have a long-term plan but I also realize that with my play time (maybe 4-16 hours a week that varies greatly) and alt-itis I may not reach some of those plans which is ok (queue cheesy quote about journeys and destinations). So by the time I get a bit of notice from people I'm either TR'ing again or on a new toon.

That said, I have gotten some notice in the TR community so it's just the raids that lose out. And again, I'm fine with that...the only reason I pointed it out was in the spirit of the OP. Some of the people that are actually good play the game far differently, spend much less time playing capped players, and only stay at the cap for a month or sometimes even less. They still may join in a raid from time to time but they're not going to be your everyday raid members. Though it's not anyone's fault, those players are going to have a hard time making a name for themselves as someone to trust in a raid, especially if they haven't run the particular raid much in the past if at all.

[Fundamental]

Come to Ghallanda, problem solved. ( lol )

[Allorian]

Sorry Glam, I liked running with you, but I get really annoyed when you make people wait 20-30 minutes in the LFM panel even though they've run EV6 with you 10-15 times before.
.

Well Sari sorry you feel that way, ya try and get all your guildies in who want to make the run as they ask for saved spots and then get in buddies as you save them spots, if ya don't include all of the afermentioned in and bring in everyone you have ran with at one time or another someone gets left out. Maybe I shoulda just told everyone its 1st come 1st served but I'll keep it in mind for the future. Thx fer letting me know.


Thx
Glam/Choh/Juggernutte

[Chai]

There needs to be a button for someone to recind their request to join which becomes clickable after 5 min of asking to join. If leaders "dont know" by then, they are just hanging onto you using you as a go to if someone better doesnt join. Holding onto someone as a "second fiddle" style choice for upwards of 20 minutes, then getting all riled up when they see that the person is in another group is hilarious.

Group leaders: If I waited 7-8 minutes, and THEN made it to Shroud part 4 before you found out I was in another group, after talking with you twice about what my build was and how many specific raid completions I have, the failure isnt on my part. :p If it took you that long to check all the references and set up a second interview, time to click "accept" on the other gimp I was being evaluated against and move on, heh.

[Munkenmo]

aybe I shoulda just told everyone its 1st come 1st served but I'll keep it in mind for the future. Thx fer letting me know.
Glam/Choh/Juggernutte

I've always hosted first come first served, zerg, etc. lfm's and tbh it's what makes me a bad guildie / friend. I don't often get tells asking me to hold spots anymore, sometimes it's to my detriment. It's primarily your group, you're hosting it, considering your success rate too I think your doing a fine job.

Maybe just add in comments x spots saved, and proactively decline people? I'd never hold it against you either way, but omg the power trip you get hitting decline! be careful it can change a man!

[Ilindith]

I've always hosted first come first served, zerg, etc. lfm's and tbh it's what makes me a bad guildie / friend. I don't often get tells asking me to hold spots anymore, sometimes it's to my detriment. It's primarily your group, you're hosting it, considering your success rate too I think your doing a fine job.

Maybe just add in comments x spots saved, and proactively decline people? I'd never hold it against you either way, but omg the power trip you get hitting decline! be careful it can change a man!

I enjoy all the rage tells I get when I decline people. The tears they cry, they are delicious.

[Zuka]

I see a lot of people with a lot of different opinions on what makes a good player, and I don't care about any of it, I have played end game and epic content for about 3 years now and have played DDO since it was strictly P2P 5 years ago (ish) and I can say beyond any shadow of doubt that having all of your epic gear and awesome named loot means nothing when you don't know what the quest requires of your character or build, I'm happy to teach anyone anything I can, after all my time playing I do have all the gear that makes me stand out, not all I want but enough to be somewhat impressive, and it doesn't change a thing, I still have the same success rates in the same content, I just have a different approach, it's important to remember that the effect of a piece of gear can taint an otherwise perfect play-style, getting to used to your vampiric effect on your weapon, or the neg levels on your dreamspitter, maybe you feel like everyone should have ToD rings (in which case you're an idiot) it's because you were lucky enough to get those drops when you were weaker, and it has tainted your standard of builds, but remember when you very first started playing? Your first character ever? When you ran your first epic or end game raid with +6 dex boots of springing +3? Or for that matter your +6 Str gloves of open lock+5? Keep in mind when you scrutinize others that you were once in their position.

In-Game I am Zenisch/Zestrata/Zerestin/Zerenas and a few other alts I don't play as much, please, if you have questions about whether or not you're geared for a quest, or if you'd like someone tolerant and understanding of your not exactly epic gear, please, please, please get a hold of me in game, send me a mail or something, I would love to help you out and help you get better, I know I'd like to be certain from first hand training that I have good players when I form up my next Master Artificer or ToD.

[Arkadios]

Make sure that before you run epics or any of the difficult raids you have EVERY piece of raid gear loot that you need so then when you do join, you are able to contibute and not just pike.

I think this is the big problem, is that people join these high level raids with things like ogre power +3 ring of listen +7 and expect to be taken seriously in the group as a contributing member.

Go make your shroud weapons, a shroud accessory, get the best possible random gen gear you can after that, run some easy epics like house P... get all the good gear you need before you start running eChrono, eVoN, and eDQ.

Ok sure raid gear helps somewhat however my healer (grethink since TR'd) does not have this and won't for a while but i've healer ev6's (before u11 not after though) with 1.6ksp and only 450hp. This was never a problem and I barely used pots. I know this has changed since, but gear is NOT everything you need someone who knows how to play and when do to what is needed (Cast this spell or that, attack now heal x, y or z) and although much of this comes from experience some is just down to whoever the player is and if they can adapt (and some cannot) so the only way to find more good players is hope that that newb joining your group can adapt.

At least that's my opinion (same philosophy goes for rl too).

[Kmnh]

Grow your guilds!

Most endgame-ish guilds can easily support 2 or new players in their guild runs, and it doesn't take long to get raid gear when you have all the raid loot being syphoned to you.

You will meet a few idiots, jerks and parasites while doing that, but it's the fastest way to get more geared/knowledgeable people on your friends list :)

[justice921]

Samulus from Fight Club is an excellent leader, and is prob the best at explaining every aspect of a raid that I have played with--however he TRs alot.I ran a VoD with Samulus on my bard a couple weeks ago, outstanding player with good communication skills.

[Zzevel]

No I am not talking about a server merge, that would just mix more noobs in with us, making things more complicated and in a way... much worse.

I am talking about more ''good'' players. People who can competantly run eChrono, eVon6, eDQ and actually bring a strong contribution to the grooup. Dont get me wrong - I am not arguing with the challenge level of the raids, because if anything for the level of loot you get get they are in the right challenge area, if anything, still too easy - I am just getting very tired of having to wait for the same 30-40 ''good'' players to log on so we can run an eChrono. It seems when none of the ''good'' players are on, it is very difficult to get a competant group up.

I do not know the exact solution to this problem, the DDO community is too small to really have some sort of server filter or anything along those lines - but I am wondering if anyone else has suggestions? I know being in an active guild is one idea, but I like to be able to log on and run whatever raid I want... That way I do not feel constricted to any sort of time schedule.

Anyway, I am going to leave the debating to the Sarlonites - anyone have any other suggestions? How we can rally up some more ''good'' people? (Also please keep any jokes and BS out of this thread, thanks)

Sarlona has plenty of good players, its is just that there is an elitist group (your assessment of only 30 players to group with sounds about right) formed near the top that thinks everyone has to have a certain set of eq and a certain XYZ of players to complete successfully. If you don't fit their mold your not a good player and not worth playing with. Dont get me wrong they are great people when your running with them most of the time but when iot comes to certain quests... (I have zergged plenty of quests with Zonixx)

We routinely have 4-6 guildies throw up an Elite shroud and take the first clickers on the LFM with us. We have never failed. Get in, make sure they know your expectations and who is doing what, kill the boss, profit. It is not a hard concept and ANYONE can do it if they are willing to LISTEN.

I have only done a few of certain things (TOD (6), Abbott (3) , Epic Desert Quests(5)) not because I havent done them, its more that i don't like the hassle associated with not having something they expect or that I only have a 39 DC or that I only have 1 set of Greensteel... bla bla bla its the hastles of expected vs reality that are the issue.

The only way to get people into that upper tier great eq group is to open up and help them get that gear to begin with, not by saying things like youre not good enough no piking...