Question about epics.

[DarkAlchemist]

I just made level 20 (yesterday) on my epic dc trapmonkey/mechanic rogue and when I asked around I was told that no one does any epics with traps these days. Is this true?

[Ghibly]

I just made level 20 (yesterday) on my epic dc trapmonkey/mechanic rogue and when I asked around I was told that no one does any epics with traps these days. Is this true?
Is it a kind of joke?

[Bengalih]

I just made level 20 (yesterday) on my epic dc trapmonkey/mechanic rogue and when I asked around I was told that no one does any epics with traps these days. Is this true?

Just like most quests, traps can in many cases be avoided, so having a trap monkey isn't always necessary.

There are others when it is essential (Under the Big Top post U11 comes to mind). Epic traps can do well over 500 damage or more and no one wants to get bit.

Rogues' assasinate ability is also a great insta-kill on epic mobs. As a mechanic though (and myself not playing a rogue) don't know if you get any of those skills.

[iRjagular]

I see lfms for epic Partycrashers and Tide Turns all the time. Both benefit by having a rogue. I've even done both without a rogue! In fact, the only epic I've done that absolutely requires a trapper is Spies in teh House.

[DarkAlchemist]

Is it a kind of joke?
This is no joke I am asking because I feel I am useless YET again. I build stuff and by the time I get up to level 20 people have changed the way they play. I have never ever done an epic before but I sit with 4 level 20's. The first one was a necromancer then became a PM when that arrived. He was told that he would never get to run epics (told by two or three guilds) because necromancy was worthless (this is when Wiz king was all there was and everything was death warded). The second was a dark monk (before ninja spy) and I was told they were worthless and would not be allowed to do epic.

Now update 5 rolled around and I left this game for a year.

Update 10.1 arrives and I come back to make my two new epic classes only to find out my new trap monkey rogue is not needed in epics as the epics with traps people die through or simply skip those epics completely. /sad panda.

My only hope is my 20 WF wizard who is an enchanter. /woohoo I finally have a chance at doing my epics.

Now I see I need a DC40 minimum or no go and with everything I have done I have a dc39 and can't see how I will get a DC40 without TR'ing first. pfffft.


So, this is not a joke I am sincerely asking.

[DarkAlchemist]

Just like most quests, traps can in many cases be avoided, so having a trap monkey isn't always necessary.

There are others when it is essential (Under the Big Top post U11 comes to mind). Epic traps can do well over 500 damage or more and no one wants to get bit.

Rogues' assasinate ability is also a great insta-kill on epic mobs. As a mechanic though (and myself not playing a rogue) don't know if you get any of those skills.No insta kill stuff for us but who knows what a Mechanic III will bring when Turbine, if Turbine, finally releases it.

[voodoogroves]

You can avoid the traps in Bargain of Blood and The Snitch, though still useful. Partycrashers is a bit more rough, but doable - also more useful w/ a Rogue. Big Top is very handy to have a rogue... and things like Chains ... absosmurfly.

[DarkAlchemist]

You can avoid the traps in Bargain of Blood and The Snitch, though still useful. Partycrashers is a bit more rough, but doable - also more useful w/ a Rogue. Big Top is very handy to have a rogue... and things like Chains ... absosmurfly.
So, not needed basically except in 2? Sounds like only one pack and 2 of them we are needed but my guildmate was saying no one does those except eBig Top and now that the exploit was finally removed a rogue is needed there.

Kinda sad if you really think about all of the work and the gear required and relegated to 2 quests. :(

[Arel]

It's worth noting that your Pale Master is now very much useful (assuming you have enough DC), they nerfed Epic Ward a good bit and insta-kills and the like work now. FoD away!

[DarkAlchemist]

It's worth noting that your Pale Master is now very much useful (assuming you have enough DC), they nerfed Epic Ward a good bit and insta-kills and the like work now. FoD away!
If he was on Thelanis he would have a 40 or 41 (due to cove items and Cannith Crafting Greater Necro item) but he isn't since I moved to Thelanis when I came back.

I just hate any game where I worked to get to cap and suddenly find all of that time, effort, and money, was wasted for nothing.

Nice to hear about the necro though. :)

[Tom_Hunters]

I think necrosis and dark monk are alright now, the epic ward is changed

Wf enchanter is a welcomed slot for sure

But rogues...they are marginalized at all levels...even assassin may find it hard to join epics these days, and mechanics have a even smaller niche...

[SirValentine]

The first one was a necromancer then became a PM when that arrived. He was told that he would never get to run epics (told by two or three guilds) because necromancy was worthless (this is when Wiz king was all there was and everything was death warded).


But PMs rock in Epics now, so pull him back out.



The second was a dark monk (before ninja spy) and I was told they were worthless and would not be allowed to do epic.


I don't know much about Monks.



Update 10.1 arrives and I come back to make my two new epic classes only to find out my new trap monkey rogue is not needed in epics as the epics with traps people die through or simply skip those epics completely. /sad panda.


Some trapping ability is useful in several Epics, but Assasin rogues can usually get those traps just fine, while being lots better at killing stuff. Or other classes (Ranger & Wiz most commonly) who splash a level or two of Rogue.



My only hope is my 20 WF wizard who is an enchanter. /woohoo I finally have a chance at doing my epics.

Now I see I need a DC40 minimum or no go and with everything I have done I have a dc39 and can't see how I will get a DC40 without TR'ing first. pfffft.


Higher is better, but there is no magic cutoff. BTW, you don't need anyone's permission to run Epics. Especially on your two wizzies, you should have no problem stepping in and seeing how things go. Once you know you have effective DCs, for CC or instakill, feel free to join or start Epic LFMs all you want.

[DarkAlchemist]

But PMs rock in Epics now, so pull him back out.



I don't know much about Monks.



Some trapping ability is useful in several Epics, but Assasin rogues can usually get those traps just fine, while being lots better at killing stuff. Or other classes (Ranger & Wiz most commonly) who splash a level or two of Rogue.



Higher is better, but there is no magic cutoff. BTW, you don't need anyone's permission to run Epics. Especially on your two wizzies, you should have no problem stepping in and seeing how things go. Once you know you have effective DCs, for CC or instakill, feel free to join or start Epic LFMs all you want.I did that when I first came back to the game on my old wiz in eVon3 and I know on the old wiz (the necro) he has a DC39 with a 50/50 chance of FoD the drow in eVon3 and if he gets pasts the SR it goes to 70%. With ship buffs he will rock it (just needs a necro +2 item to finish it off). I have not tested the Enchanter like this.

As far as my rogue he has 70+ DC just standing there (no buffs) for his DD and a 64+ for OL.

[ainmosni]

I did that when I first came back to the game on my old wiz in eVon3 and I know on the old wiz (the necro) he has a DC39 with a 50/50 chance of FoD the drow in eVon3 and if he gets pasts the SR it goes to 70%. With ship buffs he will rock it (just needs a necro +2 item to finish it off). I have not tested the Enchanter like this.

As far as my rogue he has 70+ DC just standing there (no buffs) for his DD and a 64+ for OL.

if you can reliably get past the spell pen of the drow in evon3 on your first life, i suggest you post your build lol.

drow spell resistance is nasty.

[DarkAlchemist]

if you can reliably get past the spell pen of the drow in evon3 on your first life, i suggest you post your build lol.

drow spell resistance is nasty.
Dunno I only did it 5 times and only once I couldn't do him at all and ran away.

[SirValentine]

if you can reliably get past the spell pen of the drow in evon3 on your first life, i suggest you post your build lol.

drow spell resistance is nasty.

Hmmm...

20 from levels
3 Wizard enhancements
4 Elf enhancements
4 feats
3 item
2 from Arcane Augmentation on Epic Staff of Arcane Power
1 Song of Arcane Might from a Spellsinger
--
37 total

Roll of 8 or higher on d20 gives 65% success against SR 45.

Did I miss anything? Note I don't have any of this (no Wiz toon), so this is all theoretical.

[Sarisa]

Partycrashers: Trapper makes it easier, not required though. For the spikes that come in waves, you can haste boost and jump, jump in a special spot near the fountain (it's tricky so you may not make the jump right), abundant step/wing/wind dance over it, or depend on Divine Intervention to bring you back up, then kill the mark. It's avoidable.

For the horrible air jet and force trap (will save based so evasion doesn't work) room, if you trigger it before ranging the mark, just time the air jets. That doesn't always work because the air jets don't always follow a set pattern. If you hit the mark before triggering the traps, it'll always be the closest mark to you so you can send a pet in to kill the marks for you, or just time it and fire off a disintegrate. Either way, make sure you have your graphical draw distance set to the maximum.

Big Top: The Rune Wheels can hit for upwards of 800 damage on a full set of failed saves. Trappers are strongly recommended, but still not required. High HP monks can pull and still live because of Improved Evasion.

Snitch, Tide Turns, Black Loch, Claw: Traps can be timed, dodged, avoided, or prevented from going off by killing the mob that activates them.

Bargain of Blood: Traps only pop up if you hit the wrong target/levers.

Chains: It can, technically, be done without a trapper, but I definitely would not want to do it.

Wiz King: All traps can be avoided, or for the levers halfway up each tower, DI/Healed/Sacrificial Hireling'ed through.

ADQ1: Disjunction balls can't be disabled. The Octopus middle trap can be, but you can also get the key with a high save monk or other evasive and fast swimming. The air jets in Monkey can be avoided by hugging the walls to reach the lever. Trapper helpful but not necessary.

Spies in the House: Many traps can be avoided, but a trapper is still strongly recommended.

VoN2: Traps in the maze can be timed or avoided. Still helpful though. Trap on the final chest can be DI/Healed/Sacrificed through, but a trapper is still helpful.

VoN3: Most traps can be avoided, but a trapper is still very useful. Some chests are trapped, so if you want them all, you will want someone to disable the traps.

VoN4: Strongly recommended. Some parts are extremely painful without trap skills.

VoN5: Almost required.

[ChemE]

Sounds to me like too many players are telling you what you can and can't do and you are listening to them. Just go start doing stuff and see what works. Start with the easier Red Fens and House P stuff. You'll have no problems if you are a competent caster. We did 5 epics yesterday in the fens and house p with no cc at all. melee just all stuck together and went one kill at a time. Usually with epics the party is stong enough that one guy learning as he goes ain't gonna sink the ship.

[DarkAlchemist]

Thanks to everyone who replied.

What I decided to do is use my enchanter to get my 20 epic tokens for a wood heart then wait and see if U12 brings us a Mech III and if not I am TR'ing him in a Dark Monk/Ninja Spy. I have played a few epics and a mech, or even a rogue, is just not wanted or needed.

[ElbionTcob]

Anyone have an idea of what a rogue should hit for search/disable for epics?

[goodspeed]

well I don't know about that guy but when im running tides I seek a trapper rouge that can stand the test against both the element in the air and the shard objects on the ground.

Not to mention it's nice when they can pull a bunch of **** through em. Same with the maze in prisoner. Without the skills to successfully disable a trap (and yes ive had a couple fools break em) I just wouldn't need the class. Could be better filled with pretty much almost anything that knew what it was doing.

I remember their being a list somewhere about the numbers needed for epics. Might of been in the specialist forum, course back then it was the rouge forum so god knows where it's been buried to.

[K_0tiC]

if you can reliably get past the spell pen of the drow in evon3 on your first life, i suggest you post your build lol.

drow spell resistance is nasty.

Drow SR was upgraded sometime between probably when he left and now I used to be able to cast eoob on a sorc with no sr issues then they gave drow a big SR boost which makes it hard for anyone that doesnt have multiple past lives or spends alot of feats and takes elf as there race.

As for the OP every class is trivial in epics except for casters types everyone esle is only useful now for red name tanking and alot of casters are even building for that these days, play what you like youll still get in groups every class has a role its just epics are much easier now with the epic ward changes and introduction of things like the caster DoT spells like naics/eladars.

As for dc wf enchant spec should look like this with full gear/yugo pot
int: 18base+5levels+6item (7 with epic item)+3exceptional (greensteel or tod ring)+1litany of the dead trinket+2/4tome+2ship buff+2 yugo favor int potion+2 wizard capstone = 40int without litany/41int with 2tome 6item, 42int with 7item or 3tome, 44 with 7item 3tome, 45 with 7item 4tome.
None of the gear with 40int is hard to get shroud is a grind but not hard and the other stuff just take you higher but arent exactly needed to get to a 40dc. Another option would be say dt armor with +1 exceptional int and cove trinket with +2 exceptional int to avoid shroud farming.

Enchant dc =10base+9levels+ 41int =15int mod+2spell focus +2 mastery +2 item = 40 dc based on 41int so without litany you can still get a 40dc just need to spend some time in either tower of despair getting a ring you want or working on a shroud exeptional int item. Cant expect to just go 1-20 and bing epic ready and even with a 39 dc you would preform fine given you practice what you need to do you cant just throw the same 2-3 spells and expect it to work the same for everything. On top of all that you can throw in +1 wizard past life +1 bard past life and the higher int mod to push past 40dc.

[Sarisa]

Anyone have an idea of what a rogue should hit for search/disable for epics?

52-55 search will hit everything if I remember correctly.

60 or 62 is the minimum disable you want to have to no-fail (with +5 tools).


Drow SR was upgraded sometime between probably when he left and now I used to be able to cast eoob on a sorc with no sr issues then they gave drow a big SR boost which makes it hard for anyone that doesnt have multiple past lives or spends alot of feats and takes elf as there race.


Another part of it was that pre-update 9; Hold Monster, Mass did not have an SR check. It was considered a bug, and given an SR check in update 9 when the big epic changes went in. Drow SR changed in either u7 or u8.

[ElbionTcob]

52-55 search will hit everything if I remember correctly.

60 or 62 is the minimum disable you want to have to no-fail (with +5 tools).



.

Ah, thats easy enough

[DarkAlchemist]

Ah, thats easy enough
Exactly my point as it used to not be easy enough and really shouldn't be now. The problem is that there is too much phat loot in this game that even my WF sorc (8 int) with 2 rogue levels (not a synergistic build at all) can achieve those trap numbers. Come on Turbine, really? Really?

[DarkAlchemist]

Drow SR was upgraded sometime between probably when he left and now I used to be able to cast eoob on a sorc with no sr issues then they gave drow a big SR boost which makes it hard for anyone that doesnt have multiple past lives or spends alot of feats and takes elf as there race.

As for the OP every class is trivial in epics except for casters types everyone esle is only useful now for red name tanking and alot of casters are even building for that these days, play what you like youll still get in groups every class has a role its just epics are much easier now with the epic ward changes and introduction of things like the caster DoT spells like naics/eladars.

As for dc wf enchant spec should look like this with full gear/yugo pot
int: 18base+5levels+6item (7 with epic item)+3exceptional (greensteel or tod ring)+1litany of the dead trinket+2/4tome+2ship buff+2 yugo favor int potion+2 wizard capstone = 40int without litany/41int with 2tome 6item, 42int with 7item or 3tome, 44 with 7item 3tome, 45 with 7item 4tome.
None of the gear with 40int is hard to get shroud is a grind but not hard and the other stuff just take you higher but arent exactly needed to get to a 40dc. Another option would be say dt armor with +1 exceptional int and cove trinket with +2 exceptional int to avoid shroud farming.

Enchant dc =10base+9levels+ 41int =15int mod+2spell focus +2 mastery +2 item = 40 dc based on 41int so without litany you can still get a 40dc just need to spend some time in either tower of despair getting a ring you want or working on a shroud exeptional int item. Cant expect to just go 1-20 and bing epic ready and even with a 39 dc you would preform fine given you practice what you need to do you cant just throw the same 2-3 spells and expect it to work the same for everything. On top of all that you can throw in +1 wizard past life +1 bard past life and the higher int mod to push past 40dc.
I don't do ToD and I don't yugo but he has a DC40 with only a +2 int ship buff. Doing epics (been 10 days since I last did one since I cannot find a static group on Thelanis) with him he did exceptionally well with DC40 and made them really fun. Fact is I love epics with him more than the rest of the game but, alas, I can't find that elusive static group to do them with.

eVon1 has been my favorite so far.

[DarkAlchemist]

I have done every epic dungeon so far and they all went so smoothly for my Wizard but my rogue is now just a mule for obvious reasons.

I am letting him sit until Turbine gets off the couch and decides what they want to do with Rogues then I can make a final decision on what to do with him.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

But rogues...they are marginalized at all levels...even assassin may find it hard to join epics these days,

Surely you are joking. Assassins absolutely RULE in epic.

[Bracosius]

Epics are todays elite. It sounds scary but is not really that difficult. I have RL friends that are very new to the game and we zerged them to lvl 20. They have no greensteel or raid gear. They do fine in epic.

Your guildies that "wouldnt't allow" you in epics are jerks. Many can be done with 2 or 3 competant people and the other spots don't matter. Apparently your guildies are not competant.

[AMDarkwolf]

lets also put it this way.



You will NEVER, EVER, EVER, see a lfm that says 'EPIC XXXXX QUEST, DESPERATELY NEED TRAP MONKEY, WE REALLY HOPE SOMEONE OUT THERE FOCUSED ENTIRELY ON TRAPS CUZ NOBODY ELSE CAN GET IT BUT YOU'

Epic traps have been tonned down so much that now I think any rog with capped skills(23 ranks) and proper gear, will get the traps, buffed or not. I think the exceptions might be chains where you want a rog who has silly reflex to get past the flames, but even that, taking res on far side solves that issue.

In a way I kinda feel bad for the current state of the game, as me with 1 single rog level was getting traps on all my tr's up to and including elite lv 15 quests. This is one rog level, 4 total ranks, NO MORE. I love rog, and will be back as a rog(deep splash with monk but still a rog icon :P) but I feel the trap system is too easy. (Would prefer randomized trap locations-making spot a required ability-and 'optionals' guarded by traps and locks that a NON rog-as in not the guy with 4 total ranks-won't have the ability to get.)

[fuzzy1guy]

Bigtop, chains of flame, partycrashers, Von3, Von4, Von5. Pretty much NEED a rogue or someones gonna die usually. Unless everyones real lucky and has good timeing.

Wizard king, tide turns, snitch, spies, claw.. A rogue is real nice to have as things are much easier without the traps around.


Altho when i say rogue.. I mean anyone who can disable. It does not need to be a real rogue trapmonkey.

[DarkAlchemist]

lets also put it this way.



You will NEVER, EVER, EVER, see a lfm that says 'EPIC XXXXX QUEST, DESPERATELY NEED TRAP MONKEY, WE REALLY HOPE SOMEONE OUT THERE FOCUSED ENTIRELY ON TRAPS CUZ NOBODY ELSE CAN GET IT BUT YOU'

Epic traps have been tonned down so much that now I think any rog with capped skills(23 ranks) and proper gear, will get the traps, buffed or not. I think the exceptions might be chains where you want a rog who has silly reflex to get past the flames, but even that, taking res on far side solves that issue.

In a way I kinda feel bad for the current state of the game, as me with 1 single rog level was getting traps on all my tr's up to and including elite lv 15 quests. This is one rog level, 4 total ranks, NO MORE. I love rog, and will be back as a rog(deep splash with monk but still a rog icon :P) but I feel the trap system is too easy. (Would prefer randomized trap locations-making spot a required ability-and 'optionals' guarded by traps and locks that a NON rog-as in not the guy with 4 total ranks-won't have the ability to get.)http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=342763 :)