Very good defense and good DPS?

[Dartwick]

Id like a toon that does enough DPS to be worth while in a group as melee DPS(I understand Im not going to be matching a HOrc Barb) and has significantly useful endgame defense - including high AC and probably including Shadow Fade.

Also Im not looking to be a pure Monk, I mostly want to wail on stuff not use combos.

Im thinking of halfling, 6 monk, 14 kensai using wraps.

Do you think this is achievable, assuming the the standard easily obtained epics and event items?

[testing1234]

short answer is no, it wont work.

see couple of issues with your build ill try to be clear and concise off them.
1lvls split,
neither 14 nor 6 is a good place to leave your fighter/monk at.
2know your role,
feel your just dabbing to little into tank and not in a cost effective way either. not reaching your goal and just leaving your old role leaving you basically a gimp incapable of fulfilling either dps or tank.
3casual easily attainable gear is not enough to pull of DPS and AC this is a build that require dedication and ideally more then 32point build kinda screams TR all over it.

[Dartwick]

1 As to the level split Im interested to hear better suggestions. 6 monk 12 fighter are obvious cut offs. the last 2 points seems to offer more in fighter than anywhere else but by all means suggest something better for those 2 levels.

2 Im not really interested in the "know your role" dogma. I have levels 20s I do epices with. I understand the significance of being focused built for 1 thing. But that not what Im asking here.

3 I agree that 36 point build has more potential here than a 32. That said Im looking at a 32 build now. As for gear, maybe you and I have different ideas on casual gear. Im not planning on a red dragon robe or sands epics but that really doesnt destroy your AC potential.

[Rdonuno]

end game ac is not easily achievable (or achievable at all if you are actually wanting to tank). And for a monk to be good dps, they need to be strength based, which means your ac won't get close to that. Otherwise, you are just a utility melee who brings some dps.

14 fighter gives you almost nothing over 1 fighter except a single feat. 8 monk at least gives you an extra die step to your unarmed attacks and wholeness of body. 1 rogue gives you 1d6 +3 sneak attack. Either would be better than 14 ftr.

But really, by going fighter you are trading away a lot of survivability and sustained dps for short-term burst dps. Power surge + haste boost is impressive, but end game content is going towards more of an endurance test, which favors naturally replenishable resources. No class is better at that than a pure monk. dr/10, higher die steps and better stances, abundant step, etc all present more dps/survivability than what 12 fighter gives you.

[mournbladereigns]

Id like a toon that does enough DPS to be worth while in a group as melee DPS(I understand Im not going to be matching a HOrc Barb) and has significantly useful endgame defense - including high AC and probably including Shadow Fade.

Also Im not looking to be a pure Monk, I mostly want to wail on stuff not use combos.

Im thinking of halfling, 6 monk, 14 kensai using wraps.

Do you think this is achievable, assuming the the standard easily obtained epics and event items?

Epic worthy AC takes massive gear. However, an easy way to get a high survivability toon is to make an Elven Monk, take lesser and least phiarlan dragonmarks and go dark monk. (don't worry the displacement + shadowfade will do more for you than 20+ hp) That will give you access to Shadow fade and Displacement which will mitigate a ton of damage. Plus evasion and monks good saves. Dark monk has good DPS due to ToD, and isn't as effected by higher fort.

[elg582]

Id like a toon that does enough DPS to be worth while in a group as melee DPS(I understand Im not going to be matching a HOrc Barb) and has significantly useful endgame defense - including high AC and probably including Shadow Fade.

Excellent idea, although depending on how you build, you can match the barb's DPS and still have decent defense.




Also Im not looking to be a pure Monk, I mostly want to wail on stuff not use combos.

Pure monk does not require you to use combos, but they do make you more effective.



Im thinking of halfling, 6 monk, 14 kensai using wraps.

Others have pointed out the level split problem, and I'm not a big hobbit fan, but I'll give you my suggestions below.




Do you think this is achievable, assuming the the standard easily obtained epics and event items?

Laughably easy:

-Monks get additional unarmed damage at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20; so 12 monk/8 fighter or 12 fighter/8 monk have good synergy

-9 dark monk gets Touch of Death (and will use most of your ki, so not so much with the other moves)

-12 monk gets earth stance 3, which adds +1 to your critical hit multiplier

-12 fighter gives power surge, +8 STR (briefly)

-8 fighter only gives 1 feat, so 12 monk/7 fighter/1 rogue can be a strong combination


Other weird ideas (some I have tried, some I am trying):

-8 fighter/6 monk/6 ranger: you'll have feats coming out of your ears

-14 paladin/6 monk: zeal + wind2 = 15% doublestrike (or however 10% + 5% stacks), nice synergy with drow for ninja + Holy Sword (free bossbeater shortswords) with great survivability (ninja fade, DoS, high saves, evasion, etc)

-11 ranger/9 monk: This can go a couple of different ways; elf zen arcane archer with touch of death while manyshot is on cooldown, or low-DEX TWF (I'm not saying you should... :) )

[neverconsentual]

heres a monk/fighter, it's sorta reliant on items.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=228369

[goodspeed]

1 As to the level split Im interested to hear better suggestions. 6 monk 12 fighter are obvious cut offs. the last 2 points seems to offer more in fighter than anywhere else but by all means suggest something better for those 2 levels.

2 Im not really interested in the "know your role" dogma. I have levels 20s I do epices with. I understand the significance of being focused built for 1 thing. But that not what Im asking here.

3 I agree that 36 point build has more potential here than a 32. That said Im looking at a 32 build now. As for gear, maybe you and I have different ideas on casual gear. Im not planning on a red dragon robe or sands epics but that really doesnt destroy your AC potential.

I had a couple of 6 12 fighters in a grp a week or so ago. Man they got their asses beat. Those epic mobs just ripped em apart joints and all with the healer whipping cures everywhere. Definitely 2 souls that I won't invite into a grp again, but more importantly I don't think that split offers much in the way of defense.

Id say if you wanted to melee while still being strong and shrugging off the blows go for a dex based monk and jack up ac. I say monks because they're versitile. You can't be good dmg and be good defense. One is a sacrifice to the other, just depends how much you want to go.

Monks however can get ac up pretty easy and with things like incorp, touch of death, debuffs, strikes, healing amp with light fists, they make a pretty good balanced trade off.

Anything else and ur either trading the dmg for the tanking, or your just relying on a huge hp pool and the healers mana to keep you alive.

[Kinerd]

It depends on what you mean by endgame. AC in Epics is a fool's errand. AC in VoD, not so much. Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220826) is a build that is 18 paladin / 2 monk. It has been made even better by the recent buffs to Defender of Siberys, and you may want to take Shield Mastery instead of Diehard with its changes as well. You have high AC, good Evasion, limited but potent self-healing, possibly some Healing Amp from human. TWF with Khopeshes as a primarily paladin = reasonably good DPS.

One downside is that there's a lot of gear involved, including but not limited to two Min 2 khopeshes. With that said, almost all of that gear goes towards AC, so you'll be ready to DPS fairly quickly and you'll have trash AC not long after that. Another possibly more important downside for you is that the build will be very click-happy as a paladin.

If that build isn't your cup of tea, I think you would be best off with a pure monk half-elf (rogue), light side. Even giving up Shadow Fade, you will gain in survivability with healing curse, light finisher, and the various Shintao abilities. I say half-elf over halfling because Damage Boost and Rogue Dilettante just beat the pants off of Cunning and Guile. You are not suited to being boss DPS on a monk, and dark side is no exception, so it seems most reasonable to play to your strengths.

[Taimasan]

--....You are not suited to being boss DPS on a monk....--

Do you mean all monks or??

[elraido]

Do you mean all monks or??

Yeah...I know what you and hen are able to do on your monks. A monk can be very good DPS.

[elg582]

You are not suited to being boss DPS on a monk

Lol, then nothing is.

[jmonty]

You are not suited to being boss DPS on a monk, and dark side is no exception, so it seems most reasonable to play to your strengths.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s117/sencycle/Pics/tomcruise.gif

[Kinerd]

I have two appeals to make.

First, monks clearly have a lot going for them in terms of survivability: Improved Evasion, saves, healing amp, AC, decent HP, either incorporeality or persistent self-healing. If they had categorically good DPS in addition to this, wouldn't we expect either everyone to be monks or Turbine to nerf the pants off them (or both)?

Second, consider the comparison. Barbarians get 6d6 untyped damage, +3 critical multiplier, huge Strength, Damage Boost, and the eSoS. Kensei get large Strength, khopeshes, Haste Boost, +8 multipliable damage and more on crits. DPS Monks get 10.5 sneak attack (by far the damage type most vulnerable to increased fortification), ToD rings (elemental resistances vary wildly), good but not great attack speed (due to no Haste Boost), and Touch of Death and full Strength bonus to offhand. Is it really so ridiculous that they end up being inferior boss DPS?

If neither of those are compelling, I encourage the audience to do the math themselves.

[elg582]

I have two appeals to make.

First, monks clearly have a lot going for them in terms of survivability: Improved Evasion, saves, healing amp, AC, decent HP, either incorporeality or persistent self-healing. If they had categorically good DPS in addition to this, wouldn't we expect either everyone to be monks or Turbine to nerf the pants off them (or both)?

No.



Second, consider the comparison. Barbarians get 6d6 untyped damage, +3 critical multiplier, huge Strength, Damage Boost, and the eSoS. Kensei get large Strength, khopeshes, Haste Boost, +8 multipliable damage and more on crits. DPS Monks get 10.5 sneak attack (by far the damage type most vulnerable to increased fortification), ToD rings (elemental resistances vary wildly), good but not great attack speed (due to no Haste Boost), and Touch of Death and full Strength bonus to offhand. Is it really so ridiculous that they end up being inferior boss DPS?

Yes.




If neither of those are compelling, I encourage the audience to do the math themselves.

Pre-u11, sustained DPS was roughly equal; since the introduction of alchemical handwraps and boss fortification (which hurts barb and fighter damage MUCH more than it does monk), monks are slightly ahead, and catching up quickly on short-run DPS.

Multiclass (like you have to for blitz or monster for "max" DPS) rogue or fighter for haste boost....

[elraido]

I have two appeals to make.

First, monks clearly have a lot going for them in terms of survivability: Improved Evasion, saves, healing amp, AC, decent HP, either incorporeality or persistent self-healing. If they had categorically good DPS in addition to this, wouldn't we expect either everyone to be monks or Turbine to nerf the pants off them (or both)?

Second, consider the comparison. Barbarians get 6d6 untyped damage, +3 critical multiplier, huge Strength, Damage Boost, and the eSoS. Kensei get large Strength, khopeshes, Haste Boost, +8 multipliable damage and more on crits. DPS Monks get 10.5 sneak attack (by far the damage type most vulnerable to increased fortification), ToD rings (elemental resistances vary wildly), good but not great attack speed (due to no Haste Boost), and Touch of Death and full Strength bonus to offhand. Is it really so ridiculous that they end up being inferior boss DPS?

If neither of those are compelling, I encourage the audience to do the math themselves.

Stop playing a spread sheet. Play the game

[Calebro]

Taking a few comments from this thread and adding some of my own ideas, I have an idea for you.
It looks a little goofy at a glance, but when taken as a whole it would be extremely survivable.

A Lesser Dragonmarked Elven 12 monk Ninja Spy II / 7 rogue Assassin I / 1 Wizard.
16, 16, 14, 8, 14, 8 for a 32 point build
Monk 12 and Ninja Spy II offers level 12 monk abilities, including Improved Evasion, Abundant Step, Shadow Fade, Touch of Death, etc.
Rogue 7 Assassin I offers Haste Boost III, Damage Boost III, Wand/Scroll Mastery II, SA Training III, max UMD and/or traps skills, etc.
Wizard 1 offers Extend for your Displacement Dragonmark and free use of Shield wands, Stoneskin wands, etc.

All told, you'll have reliable trash AC supplemented by extended self cast displacement and shadow fade combined with good saves and immunities.
You'll have quite respectable DPS via 1d12 fists + 8d6+9 sneak attack + haste 3 + damage 3 + ToD + elemental strikes + stunning fist + unbalancing strike all at handwraps attack speed.
You'll have Wholeness of Body around level 10 to self heal, and max UMD at later levels.

All in all, amazing defenses with a solid offense.
You might get a few strange looks and an occasional party decline from people not willing to give a 12 monk / 7 rogue / 1 wizard a chance, but it should be very effective.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Taking a few comments from this thread and adding some of my own ideas, I have an idea for you.
It looks a little goofy at a glance, but when taken as a whole it would be extremely survivable.

A Lesser Dragonmarked Elven 12 monk Ninja Spy II / 7 rogue Assassin I / 1 Wizard.
16, 16, 14, 8, 14, 8 for a 32 point build
Monk 12 and Ninja Spy II offers level 12 monk abilities, including Improved Evasion, Abundant Step, Shadow Fade, Touch of Death, etc.
Rogue 7 Assassin I offers Haste Boost III, Damage Boost III, Wand/Scroll Mastery II, SA Training III, max UMD and/or traps skills, etc.
Wizard 1 offers Extend for your Displacement Dragonmark and free use of Shield wands, Stoneskin wands, etc.

All told, you'll have reliable trash AC supplemented by extended self cast displacement and shadow fade combined with good saves and immunities.
You'll have quite respectable DPS via 1d12 fists + 8d6+9 sneak attack + haste 3 + damage 3 + ToD + elemental strikes + stunning fist + unbalancing strike all at handwraps attack speed.
You'll have Wholeness of Body around level 10 to self heal, and max UMD at later levels.

All in all, amazing defenses with a solid offense.
You might get a few strange looks and an occasional party decline from people not willing to give a 12 monk / 7 rogue / 1 wizard a chance, but it should be very effective.

I've actually got something similar to this already, but instead of rogue levels for sneak attack etc. i've got fighter levels & taken stalwart defender (also i use shortswords) she's surprisingly tough & capable of dishing out some nice dps too when in earth stance for the extra crit multiplier.

http://my.ddo.com/character/thelanis/Ossara stats dont show her in earth stance, but when she is she currently rocks a little over 600HP, more with the thaarak bracers, rage etc. Still need to get her madstones, exceptional con & str etc too.

She's a sturdy character that's quick moving & fun to play.. oh, and i took the full dragonmark line not just to lesser since greater gives an extra +2 displacements per rest on top of the enhancements too.. 6x extended displacements per rest is sweet

[NaturalHazard]

I have two appeals to make.

Second, consider the comparison. Barbarians get 6d6 untyped damage, +3 critical multiplier, huge Strength, Damage Boost, and the eSoS. .

Wait a minute!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek: you get an ESOS just for rolling up a barbarian? Ive been wasting my time trying farm that shard, im rolling one up right now!!!!

[elraido]

Wait a minute!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek: you get an ESOS just for rolling up a barbarian? Ive been wasting my time trying farm that shard, im rolling one up right now!!!!

Careful, you might get neg repped like I did! :D

[mournbladereigns]

Wait a minute!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek: you get an ESOS just for rolling up a barbarian? Ive been wasting my time trying farm that shard, im rolling one up right now!!!!

Only if you go Pure class Full-******, and have yelled HJEAL MEH! enough. Then Axer shows up and give you an eSoS and teaches you the secret handshake.

[NaturalHazard]

Stop playing a spread sheet. Play the game

was it this post that got neg repped? some people have paper thin skins.

[dpadan17]

you should try the "meathelmet" build. Decent dps while being able to make Horoth your playtoy as well. 12ftr/6ranger/2monk. Stalwart and tempest make a nice combo. mid to high 80's ac (you could tweak and get a 90's) and still enough hate to tank and take a great amount of punishment as well as dps if you would like. With the new (faster moving) changes to stalwart. It makes it quite nice of a build. Before I tr'd my tank. she did quite well in dps as well as tanking hard/elite TOD.

[Kinerd]

No.



Yes.




Pre-u11, sustained DPS was roughly equal; since the introduction of alchemical handwraps and boss fortification (which hurts barb and fighter damage MUCH more than it does monk), monks are slightly ahead, and catching up quickly on short-run DPS.

Multiclass (like you have to for blitz or monster for "max" DPS) rogue or fighter for haste boost....Update 11 also introduced worthwhile Damage Boost. I don't know if you count that as sustained DPS, but barbarians already had a lot going for them against high fortification. In any event, I would like to see your figures to back up the claim that monks are ahead in any situation against 50-80 fort.
Stop playing a spread sheet. Play the gameI like to consider myself a reasonable person. If you don't have any reasons to support your claim, why should I believe you? Why should anyone?

Though I hesitate to encourage your debate style, I do in fact play a monk. I enjoy it very much, but I believe I do less DPS against unstunnables (i.e. bosses) than with my other melees. Put succinctly, my anecdotal experience disagrees with you. Does that mean you are wrong?
Wait a minute!!!! you get an ESOS just for rolling up a barbarian? Ive been wasting my time trying farm that shard, im rolling one up right now!!!!I am willing to consider less than optimal gearing for the barbarian if we at the same time strike ToD rings and/or silver handwraps from the dark monk.

Let me just add this. I have been accused by Shade and people of his ilk of being a TWF zealot, of fudging numbers to make a better case for those builds over THF (and by extension, barbarians). Don't you (collectively) think it implausible that I could be simultaneously that and a pro-barb zealot in this thread? Isn't it more plausible that I have some reason to believe what I do? Further, doesn't it make more sense to address that reason on its own merits rather than resorting to character attacks?

[NaturalHazard]

Let me just add this. I have been accused by Shade and people of his ilk of being a TWF zealot, of fudging numbers to make a better case for those builds over THF (and by extension, barbarians). Don't you (collectively) think it implausible that I could be simultaneously that and a pro-barb zealot in this thread? Isn't it more plausible that I have some reason to believe what I do? Further, doesn't it make more sense to address that reason on its own merits rather than resorting to character attacks?

Since when did I attack your charactor? Your reading more into it than I would of thought.

I never got involved in what ever you and shade and the twf vs thf brigade got all cold war about, I was just supprised at what you stated barbarian gets the ESOS, you should of just said the ESOS complements the barbarians abilities immensely. Stop being so serious and learn to lighten up a little.

Here have a cookie. :D

[elraido]

Though I hesitate to encourage your debate style, I do in fact play a monk. I enjoy it very much, but I believe I do less DPS against unstunnables (i.e. bosses) than with my other melees. Put succinctly, my anecdotal experience disagrees with you. Does that mean you are wrong?I am willing to consider less than optimal gearing for the barbarian if we at the same time strike ToD rings and/or silver handwraps from the dark monk.


So, it takes your Monk 6 seconds longer to kill something because he is doing 3% less damage than a barb (or whatever a spread sheet says). Good Lord, all those 6 seconds might add up to a 3 whole minutes over the coarse of a quest!

[elg582]

Update 11 also introduced worthwhile Damage Boost. I don't know if you count that as sustained DPS, but barbarians already had a lot going for them against high fortification.

No, it's not sustained DPS, and U11 also introduced quests long enough to make sustained at least as important as boosted DPS; also, as humans and helves get damage boost (and there is no real racial preference for monks), the entire point is moot from a class-discussion perspective.




In any event, I would like to see your figures to back up the claim that monks are ahead in any situation against 50-80 fort.

I would like to see your numbers that they aren't; the models are just that, models.

OTOH, all we have are models and anecdotal experience; the models suggest that against low-fort enemies, barbarians are slightly ahead of monks, which is contradicted by the experience of pretty much any dark, STR monk (unless you know a lot of barbarians who wear threat mitigation gear). Then we start talking about high fort, which necessarily affects barbarians more, since their crit profile is so much larger, and therefore represents a larger proportion of their total DPS.




I like to consider myself a reasonable person. If you don't have any reasons to support your claim, why should I believe you? Why should anyone?


Why should anyone believe anyone else about anything? My attitude from the beginning has been to go out and try it because the models are flawed and anecdotal experience is all too often based on outliers, i.e. you notice the crappy monk, not the decent monk, and it's much easier to play a barbarian, ergo, fewer bad barbarians to notice.

[Link_omega]

If you are really pressed for trying ac build heres one that is do it all warning it will take alot of investment of time to procure items necessary to pull of + last update pretty much pulled one over on ac builds by makeing armor +enhancement not stack at all properly.
Looking at post again doesnt include armor enhancement so its purely raw ac :) awesome.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=340403

[Kinerd]

I would like to see your numbers that they aren't; the models are just that, models.I'm glad you asked! Here they are, for 0 and 75 (chosen arbitrarily) fort. The first set of numbers is averaged over Damage Boosts (both using IV), the second is with no boost.

Barbarian: 466 / 337 , 429 / 311
Monk: 440 / 328 , 415 / 313

The numbers I used were 60 Strength, 22 Power Attack, epic Claw set, Shintao and Ravager sets, Seeker +10, and the eSoS for the barb. For monk I used half-elf 10.5 Sneak Attack, Wind Stance, 34 Strength, 5 Power Attack, Frenzied Berserker instead of Ravager, Tharne's Goggles (or equivalent), otherwise the same gear, Holy Burst and Shocking (or whatever element the target is not resistant to) Burst, and +5 Holy Silver of Greater Outsider Bane wraps. (Please note: I have heard that crafted handwraps are still not properly stacking Holy with ToD Holy Burst, but as a romantic I am still hopeful that handwraps will be fixed someday, so I will calculate as if they are working.) This also assumes that the target only saves against ToD on a 20, which is probably not a fair assumption for the high fort case.

We see how the monk has a higher unboosted DPS against the 75 fort target, so we can calculate how long the fight needs to be for that sustainable advantage to match the lead opened by the barbarian in the unsustainable regime. An advantage of about 9 DPS for 2 minutes and 30 seconds is a total of 1350 damage, divided by about 2 DPS gives 675 seconds, or 11 minutes 15 seconds after the boosted period, or a total fight length of 13 minutes 45 seconds. Anything shorter, and the barbarian did more DPS.

With that said, it should be emphasized that the barbarian has access to +5 uses of his or her Action Boost by being half-orc (3) and barbarian (2). Factoring this in, we have the same 1350 damage from the first 2:30 plus an advantage of about 24 DPS for another 2:30, for a total lead of 4950, giving a catch-up time of 2475 seconds, or 41 minutes 15 seconds, or a total fight length of 46 minutes 15 seconds.
OTOH, all we have are models and anecdotal experience; the models suggest that against low-fort enemies, barbarians are slightly ahead of monks, which is contradicted by the experience of pretty much any dark, STR monk (unless you know a lot of barbarians who wear threat mitigation gear). Then we start talking about high fort, which necessarily affects barbarians more, since their crit profile is so much larger, and therefore represents a larger proportion of their total DPS.Barbarians certainly have a superior critical profile, which is disproportionately decreased by fortification, but they also have lots of Vicious damage and very high Strength, which ignore fort entirely. Similarly, monks certainly have stuff that gets past fortification, but dark monks also have sneak attack, which is much more susceptible to fortification than any other damage type. Additionally, though this isn't directly related to fortification, Touch of Death (and Touch of Despair, if that's your thing) have Fortitude saves, which are generally not trivial to make against major bosses. Barbarians lose more, but it's not completely one-sided.
Why should anyone believe anyone else about anything? My attitude from the beginning has been to go out and try it because the models are flawed and anecdotal experience is all too often based on outliers, i.e. you notice the crappy monk, not the decent monk, and it's much easier to play a barbarian, ergo, fewer bad barbarians to notice.My primary character is a healer. Trust me, I've noticed plenty of bad barbs.

[Alkindus]

The numbers I used were 60 Strength

Just wanted to point out for a barb 60 strength is abnormally low, if you are assuming max gear and such 74 is the number for strength fully geared barbs hit. Also, encrusted > ravager for barbs now due to damage boost. Just wanted to add that so you can give accurate numbers and all.

[whomhead]

You are not suited to being boss DPS on a monk, and dark side is no exception, so it seems most reasonable to play to your strengths.


Here they are, for 0 and 75 (chosen arbitrarily) fort. The first set of numbers is averaged over Damage Boosts (both using IV), the second is with no boost.

Barbarian: 466 / 337 , 429 / 311
Monk: 440 / 328 , 415 / 313


The first quote simply does not mesh with what your own numbers indicate in the second quote. Unless you really believe that somewhere between 2.7 and 5.6% less DPS makes a monk somehow "unsuited to being boss DPS."

If the boss fight lasts let's say 10 minutes, against a 0% fort boss (which I feel compelled to point out is the situation that most favors the barb, and also does not exist in game), then the difference is approximately 33 seconds in time to complete the fight with an extra eSoS barb VS a monk. I am 100% certain that you would wait longer than 33 seconds to find an extra eSoS barb to fill the group than if you just accepted the monk and went on and beat the quest.

So perhaps you'd like to clarify on how this small difference translates into monks not being suitable boss DPS?

[Forzah]

I'm glad you asked! Here they are, for 0 and 75 (chosen arbitrarily) fort. The first set of numbers is averaged over Damage Boosts (both using IV), the second is with no boost.

Barbarian: 466 / 337 , 429 / 311
Monk: 440 / 328 , 415 / 313


The difference is thus marginal at best..

[elg582]

I'm glad you asked! Here they are, for 0 and 75 (chosen arbitrarily) fort. The first set of numbers is averaged over Damage Boosts (both using IV), the second is with no boost.

Barbarian: 466 / 337 , 429 / 311
Monk: 440 / 328 , 415 / 313

I had a long response written, especially about how you are calculating touch of death, but what's the point? I have some points about monk DPS, but then you didn't set up an optimal barb; screw it, I'll accept your numbers.

Here's the problem: What is the margin of error in your calculations?

[Consumer]

Just wanted to point out for a barb 60 strength is abnormally low, if you are assuming max gear and such 74 is the number for strength fully geared barbs hit. Also, encrusted > ravager for barbs now due to damage boost. Just wanted to add that so you can give accurate numbers and all.

Not to mention the lack of supreme cleave and so on, the numbers are vastly lower than they should be for the barb.

[whomhead]

Not to mention the lack of supreme cleave and so on, the numbers are vastly lower than they should be for the barb.

For single target boss DPS I don't think supreme cleave means much of anything, though there could be something I'm missing...?

[Alkindus]

Not to mention the lack of supreme cleave and so on, the numbers are vastly lower than they should be for the barb.

Yup, My barb does roughly 650 dps without a bard, and something around 700 with, using supreme cleave. Didn't really feel like arguing those numbers though heh, figure the increase in 14 str would be a nice start for showing how far ahead a barb is of any class.

[Alkindus]

For single target boss DPS I don't think supreme cleave means much of anything, though there could be something I'm missing...?

I'm quite lazy today so i'll just post a video of mine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAUB9DyqwLU

A correctly timed supreme cleave is roughly the equivalent of twitching in fighters. Gives you more attacks per minute and such while retaining glancing blows.

[Kinerd]

The first quote simply does not mesh with what your own numbers indicate in the second quote. Unless you really believe that somewhere between 2.7 and 5.6% less DPS makes a monk somehow "unsuited to being boss DPS."

If the boss fight lasts let's say 10 minutes, against a 0% fort boss (which I feel compelled to point out is the situation that most favors the barb, and also does not exist in game), then the difference is approximately 33 seconds in time to complete the fight with an extra eSoS barb VS a monk. I am 100% certain that you would wait longer than 33 seconds to find an extra eSoS barb to fill the group than if you just accepted the monk and went on and beat the quest.

So perhaps you'd like to clarify on how this small difference translates into monks not being suitable boss DPS?The phrase used, when taken in context, indicates that monks have other things they are more suited to. Light side (cc, survivability) has more synergy with general monk abilities than dark side (dps). It is worth mentioning that "not suitable" and "not suited to" are not interchangeable phrases.

I would also like to point out that the barb numbers cited were in no way meant to indicate maximum melee DPS; as others have mentioned, they aren't even maximum barb DPS. Quite to the contrary, the point there was to show that even THF barbarians surpass monk DPS. Higher DPS builds would do so by more, naturally.
I had a long response written, especially about how you are calculating touch of death, but what's the point? I have some points about monk DPS, but then you didn't set up an optimal barb; screw it, I'll accept your numbers.I am interested: how do you think I am calculating Touch of Death?
Here's the problem: What is the margin of error in your calculations?Well, barb attack dice have larger random uncertainties than monks due to their hyper-critical multiplier, but this effect grows less important as fortification increases. For damage dice, we have a total of 13d6 on the barbarian side and 2d10 + ~9d6 for the monk, so the monk would have a little more, especially when we factor in ToD. My guess would be both would see very similar uncertainties, but I'm not sure why you're asking. Over long enough time, these uncertainties go to zero for each.
Just wanted to point out for a barb 60 strength is abnormally low, if you are assuming max gear and such 74 is the number for strength fully geared barbs hit. Also, encrusted > ravager for barbs now due to damage boost. Just wanted to add that so you can give accurate numbers and all.The way I see it, I accounted for all the class- and race-based increases to strength, and any additional item / buff (with the noted exception of encrusted set's FB bonus) could be used by either. As such, the comparison wouldn't be [barb with 14 more strength vs. monk] but [barb with 14 more strength vs. monk with 14 or 12 more strength], which would end up pretty much the same place.

[Kinerd]

I had another thought that I forget to put in that post: those 33 seconds saved (or whatever) come at the end of the fight, when characters like my healer are glancing nervously at their mnemonic potions. That extra 2 minutes (or whatever) it takes to fill does not offer the same threat. (In a way it's not even relevant, because it clouds the issue with which build/gearset is easier to find while filling a group.) While I'm sure the time value of a mnemonic potion can be calculated, there is a qualitative psychological difference between a 0-potion and >0-potion run.

[NaturalHazard]

Did the op ask for good dps or did he ask for max dps?:confused::confused::confused:

so the only good dps is max dps?

[Alkindus]

The way I see it, I accounted for all the class- and race-based increases to strength, and any additional item / buff (with the noted exception of encrusted set's FB bonus) could be used by either. As such, the comparison wouldn't be [barb with 14 more strength vs. monk] but [barb with 14 more strength vs. monk with 14 or 12 more strength], which would end up pretty much the same place.

I have about 90% certainty that I am at 66 strength without madstone clickie, rage, yugo, and ship buff giving me the 74.

Could I see your calculations for the barb? I just feel like something is missing there.

[Kinerd]

Sure!

20 base
5 levels
3 tome
6 item (or 2 tome and 7 item, I just wanted an even number)
8 mighty rage
2 frenzy
4 death frenzy
2 capstone
2 rage spell (I figured this is always cast so may as well throw it in)
2 half-orc strength
2 half-orc power rage
4 barbarian power rage
=
60

You might have 4 tome, 7 item, 1 litany, 1 and 2 exceptional, 2 ToD set bonus, which would be a net +8 (as you didn't count rage spell).
Did the op ask for good dps or did he ask for max dps?

so the only good dps is max dps?I did not tell the op that pure monk was bad DPS. I said to play to its strengths. The only thing my recommended pure monk build loses DPS-wise is Touch of Death, and it gains dramatically more in the areas monks are superior. It is also far more relevant to the op's actual request, which was primarily a build that had good defense: stunned enemies don't hit back, and every enemy is a healing potion when you're a light monk.