Update 11 raids from a raid leader perspective

[maddmatt70]

Yes, this subject has been beaten to death on the forums here. What has not been really addressed is that the success and resource consumption for raids such as Epic Dragon, Epic DQ and LOB hard and MA hard falls ever more on the shoulder of raid leaders.

The message that the developers have sent with the changes to the bosses and the difficulty of the new raids is players have to have put in their time doing shrouds, vod, hound, reaver, and Tower and Abbot all on normal and doing some 6 person epics before doing the new raids and DQ and Dragon Epics. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, the problem for raid leaders is alot of players that are not ready in terms of raid experience or gear are applying to do these epic and challenging raids. Pre update 11 I never myddoed anybody unless I was doing something more extreme like a tower elite, but now if I do not myddo the players I do not recognize it means mana pots for the healers.

I have led Epic Dragons where 0 pots where used post update 11 and I just led an epic dragon where 10+ pots where used per healer. The biggest problem with that dragon raid the other night was I took two people that had no business being in the raid. These two people contributed virtually nothing and in fact might have caused the healers to drink more pots. My overall strategy was decent, but you can not have gimps in these raids anymore.

I do not have a problem with Turbine creating a tiered raid system where you have to do easier raids before you can do the harder raids. The problem is this information gap where these new level 20s with very little gear click to join these more difficult raid lfms. As a leader I have to do much more work then I did before screening applicants. The job of a raid leader is much more difficult post update 11.

What I would like to see is a requirement that a player has to have completed 15 raids before he/she can join an epic raid lfm on a given character or 200 raids as a player on all characters. Note: this would carry over through true reincarnation for the 15 raids and 200 raids. Yes this is draconic, but the playerbase does not understand just because you are level 20 you are not entitled to join an lfm. Either these new players should not be allowed to join these epic raids or the player's information should be more transparent and easier to acces then myddo...

[stainer]

Yes, this subject has been beaten to death on the forums here. What has not been really addressed is that the success and resource consumption for raids such as Epic Dragon, Epic DQ and LOB hard and MA hard falls ever more on the shoulder of raid leaders.

It is a terrible burden that you bear for all of us.

The message that the developers have sent with the changes to the bosses and the difficulty of the new raids is players have to have put in their time doing shrouds, vod, hound, reaver, and Tower and Abbot all on normal and doing some 6 person epics before doing the new raids and DQ and Dragon Epics. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, the problem for raid leaders is alot of players that are not ready in terms of raid experience or gear are applying to do these epic and challenging raids. Pre update 11 I never myddoed anybody unless I was doing something more extreme like a tower elite, but now if I do not myddo the players I do not recognize it means mana pots for the healers.

Thank you for channeling the intent of the developers for all of us.

I have led Epic Dragons where 0 pots where used post update 11 and I just led an epic dragon where 10+ pots where used per healer. The biggest problem with that dragon raid the other night was I took two people that had no business being in the raid. These two people contributed virtually nothing and in fact might have caused the healers to drink more pots. My overall strategy was decent, but you can not have gimps in these raids anymore.

If two people caused you to go for using 0 pots, to using 10 pots, there were other issues.

I do not have a problem with Turbine creating a tiered raid system where you have to do easier raids before you can do the harder raids. The problem is this information gap where these new level 20s with very little gear click to join these more difficult raid lfms. As a leader I have to do much more work then I did before screening applicants. The job of a raid leader is much more difficult post update 11.

That is a big responsibility you have taken on!

What I would like to see is a requirement that a player has to have completed 15 raids before he/she can join an epic raid lfm on a given character or 200 raids as a player on all characters. Note: this would carry over through true reincarnation for the 15 raids and 200 raids. Yes this is draconic, but the playerbase does not understand just because you are level 20 you are not entitled to join an lfm. Either these new players should not be allowed to join these epic raids or the player's information should be more transparent and easier to acces then myddo...

Wow.

Replies in red.


Without a specific reply, or indication from a Turbine representative I find your interpretation to be lacking.

18003 point(s) total

[somenewnoob]

I'll pass on this suggestion. If it's too hard for you to lead epic raids now don't lead them. Leading epic raids isn't for everybody.

(Oh good, the over sensitive neg reppers are out! I was wondering where you had been! Nice to see you get your diapers all messy again over something.)

[stainer]

I'll pass on this suggestion. If it's too hard for you to lead epic raids now don't lead them. Leading epic raids isn't for everybody.

I agree. It is as if the developers are saying "Hey! You need to be a good communicator to lead these new raids."

[Eladiun]

I have led Epic Dragons where 0 pots where used post update 11 and I just led an epic dragon where 10+ pots where used per healer. The biggest problem with that dragon raid the other night was I took two people that had no business being in the raid. These two people contributed virtually nothing and in fact might have caused the healers to drink more pots. My overall strategy was decent, but you can not have gimps in these raids anymore.


This is where as a leader you have to decide whether it's worth using resources or not. Sometimes its best to let it wipe...

I do agree if you aren't leading full guild raids where you can trust everyone it can be painful. Too many players think that being 20 means being Epic raid ready It's not. You need to build your character up to that level. You don't generally go from High School Baseball to the Pros you spend time in college and the minor to build to there. I think your reqs are a bit crazy tho.

[LoveNeverFails]

The idea is good. The implementation, not so much. There are still some epics that as a healer i wouldn't join in a million years, because I KNOW that i'm not geared properly, nor do i have the skill/tactics to heal them properly. I won't join an eChrono anymore, because i know that the last few times i did it, i guzzled 5 pots, and TBH i don't have the plat or the money to be buying pots like that. And yet, by your addition, I've done plenty of Shrouds and Reaver's fates to be able to click your LFM and still screw stuff up.

Experienced players are a good thing, but not everyone who has piked their way through 15 reavers, shrouds, or Tempest Spines (it's a raid, right?) is ready to do epic raids.

[Fetchi]

Raid Leader's Ability To Lead - No Change
Party Composition - No Change
Party Skill Level - No Change
Party Gear Setup - No Change
Loot Generated From Successful Raid - No Change
DPS - No Change
Healing Ability - No Change

Raid Boss HPs - Increased
Raid Boss Fortification - Increased
Raid Fun Factor - Decreased
Time To Complete Raid - Increased
Mana Pot Consumption - Increased

Screening players is like putting a band-aid on a gaping wound. It won't fix the problem.

[ag_gair_eos_ard]

One time in Ev6 I thought I was going to use a pot on my healer, then I remembered, there was a second healer! So I told him to take over as I loled around. Amazingly, we didn't use any pots. I almost did though, almost.

[maddmatt70]

The real problem is players that are not ready to run these raids are joining them. I have led 1000s of raids. I know what I am doing. What needs to be done now this update is to screen players. Khyber has a pug tradition unlike any other server. There are players that can do these raids adequately in 100s of guilds on Khyber. I am not looking to exclude them, but rather those that can not do the raids adequately. If you just start playing the game and just arrived at level 20 you have no business joining an epic dragon lfm. Would you know that you have no business joining an epic dragon lfm if you just hit level 20 likely not; hence, the need to screen applicants.

[stainer]

The real problem is players that are not ready to run these raids are joining them. I have led 1000s of raids. I know what I am doing. What needs to be done now this update is to screen players. Khyber has a pug tradition unlike any other server. There are players that can do these raids adequately in 100s of guilds on Khyber. I am not looking to exclude them, but rather those that can not do the raids adequately. If you just start playing the game and just arrived at level 20 you have no business joining an epic dragon lfm. Would you know that you have no business joining an epic dragon lfm if you just hit level 20 likely not; hence, the need to screen applicants.

I think I see what you are saying...

You weren't having fun before the raids were upgraded, because they were to easy. So you complained.

You aren't having fun after the update to the raids, because noobatastic players are ruining your fun. So you complained.

I am starting to see a pattern.

[maddmatt70]

I think I see what you are saying...

You weren't having fun before the raids were upgraded, because they were to easy. So you complained.

You aren't having fun after the update to the raids, because noobatastic players are ruining your fun. So you complained.

I am starting to see a pattern.

Yes and you like trolling me and the guild I am in that is the pattern I see. I am having great fun in the new raids and the old ones, it is just more work for me the raid leader which should be streamlined. The lord of blades is one of the 2-3 best raids Turbine has ever created in my opinion.

[stainer]

Yes and you like trolling me and the guild I am in that is the pattern I see. I am having great fun in the new raids and the old ones, it is just more work for me the raid leader which should be streamlined. The lord of blades is one of the 2-3 best raids Turbine has ever created in my opinion.

I was just offering a alternative view point. I apologize if you feel that I was attacking you personally. I do not feel that increasing a monsters hps to a bajillion is the best way to increase epic difficulty. I am pretty sure that there are a lot of people that feel the same way. Without a precise understanding of what is in development, and the direction of the game, it is silly to believe that anyone has a grasp of how to "correct" the game, or it's play.

[somenewnoob]

Welcome to epic raid pugging..........seriously.......what do you expect? Pugs are always a crapshoot, epic raid pugs even more so.

I'll give you the same advice I've seen people give all the "OMG this pug sucks" threads.......join a guild that has enough 20's to fill epic raids if yiou don't like pugging.

Pugs are what Pugs are. And that's not likely to change anytime soon. It's always an adventure.

[stainer]

I bet there are a lot of people that want to epic raid and can't or won't now. I would even bet that constituency outweighs the make it "harder crowd". So what has happened is a large player base is now excluded at the the whim, and urging of a few. I am not pointing fingers here, but that feels almost selfish.

[maddmatt70]

Welcome to epic raid pugging..........seriously.......what do you expect? Pugs are always a crapshoot, epic raid pugs even more so.

I'll give you the same advice I've seen people give all the "OMG this pug sucks" threads.......join a guild that has enough 20's to fill epic raids if yiou don't like pugging.

Pugs are what Pugs are. And that's not likely to change anytime soon. It's always an adventure.

Yes, I am well aware of pugging. I have lead 30ish raids a week for the last 4 years almost all had at least one pug or several pugs. I use to take most any gimp that joined the lfm, but no longer this update 11. I like pugging quite a bit I just wish there was a way to streamline the process post update 11 and feel there should be.

Edit: the additional carrot for raid leaders is attracting healers to join your lfm. If you do not screen applicants thoroughly now the raid leaders will not attract pug healers because they would know joining lfms by you could mean pots.

[stainer]

Yes, I am well aware of pugging. I have lead 30ish raids a week for the last 4 years almost all had at least one pug or several pugs. I use to take most any gimp that joined the lfm, but no longer this update 11. I like pugging quite a bit I just wish there was a way to streamline the process post update 11 and feel there should be.

Edit: the additional carrot for raid leaders is attracting healers to join your lfm. If you do not screen applicants thoroughly now the raid leaders will not attract pug healers because they would know joining lfms by you could mean pots.

So most any pug that joins is a gimp, except for healers. Pug healers are the exclusion to gimpness?

[Astraghal]

/rant on


My overall strategy was decent, but you can not have gimps in these raids anymore.

This is the crux of it for me. We can see HP now and MyDDO has been reliable for a while. I am surprised how many borderline gimps are trying to run end game. I think we need some clear guides on what Epic ready means. Visible in the game via the MyDDO panel.

If toons were built and played properly even the new content isn't hard. It just takes a couple of gimps to turn what should be relatively easy into a eyebleeding [mess]. We need to be privy to HP totals, DPS ratings, visible gear layouts, total completions etc., because it's gotten to the point that they matter.

I think people need to endure this new difficulty for a while as an excercise in what their toons are capable of. It's bad habits that make u11 seem hard more than anything else. Any basically geared level 20 should be able to meet some ability benchmarks and be able to contribute but we need some sort of LFM mechanism that groups players by ability.

In my experience the u9 changes to arcanes made them very uncooperative (and many obnoxious), even though the old methods are still more efficient in about half the cases. So we get less group synergy on top of increased difficulty new raids. Remember I'm talking pugs here not guild or channel runs, so I no longer expect gh, blur, rage or haste as they more often than not do not materialize, even upon request. It's a culture that anyone who has played DDO for a while is familar with, it's even rubbed off on the divines since the FvS PrE's were released, half the time now you won't get deathward, protection from evil, fom or resists in Epic pugs or level 25 CC group pugs, even if you ask.

I've noticed a sort of caster delinquency since u9 and most now are just grouping to see how much they can outkill the melee by or steal aggro (used to be the WF/HO barbs role..) through DoT's and run away or die when they get it. Many go out of their way to impede the dps progress of the rest of the group in favor of making themselve's look good in comparison. Yep it's ********, but there are a lot of low self-esteem people around.

The pug scene was healthy on Khyber pre-u9, but died away massively with the spell pass. It had recovered a bit with some guilds pugging regular Epics but after u11 it's virtually non-existant. So there is a certain bitter douchiness in a lot of players regarding the game changes so now they just solo on their casters.

Also this kind of epeen thing that you see a lot in pugs with players trying to be heroes in their misguided interpretation of game mechanics, is something that works while showing off to teh noobs while levelling but has no place in level 20 raids, but it's common in pugs and causes a lot of wipes. A lot of multiple TR'd capped toon accounts still have problems with this culture, especially melee types as casters are usually efficient because of resources.


I do not have a problem with Turbine creating a tiered raid system where you have to do easier raids before you can do the harder raids. The problem is this information gap where these new level 20s with very little gear click to join these more difficult raid lfms. As a leader I have to do much more work then I did before screening applicants. The job of a raid leader is much more difficult post update 11.

What I would like to see is a requirement that a player has to have completed 15 raids before he/she can join an epic raid lfm on a given character or 200 raids as a player on all characters. Note: this would carry over through true reincarnation for the 15 raids and 200 raids. Yes this is draconic, but the playerbase does not understand just because you are level 20 you are not entitled to join an lfm. Either these new players should not be allowed to join these epic raids or the player's information should be more transparent and easier to acces then myddo...

Agree we need some way to filter and that doesn't automatically mean elitism, if you counted the posts on here that react that way to any debate, it's never more than a dozen or so and that isn't representative of the DDO playerbase, so please ignore those posts if you see them Turbine. It would be good for the game to get the pug scene going again in some reliable way.

/rant off

[DMCain]

Kind of a silly question here, but:

Why the heck are the pots in the game if not for use?

I'm not much of an end game raider. I like to do them on occasion, but they are not my cup of tea. Personally, I see no problem with sucking down pots to help with a completion. On my casters, by level 20 I have several hundred mana pots stashed and generally keep 10 or so of the store pots on me for those 'Oh ****!' moments.

If you're not going to use the mana pots, may as well not use Heal scrolls, haste pots, rage pots, etc. They are there to be USED, not gazed at fondly in your bags. IMO, if you refuse, or do not wish, to use the resources given to you, you deserve to fail in whatever you attempt.

[maddmatt70]

So most any pug that joins is a gimp, except for healers. Pug healers are the exclusion to gimpness?

I deny pug healers all the time... It is time to squelch you for trolling Stainer..

[stainer]

I deny pug healers all the time... It is time to squelch you for trolling Stainer..

I am sorry I hurt your feelings. I am truly trying to understand your point of view, but it seems so contradictory at times.

[My2Cents]

My main just reached 20. I'm looking forward to trying my first epic, which I assume will be snitch.

Could someone provide cogent advice as to what raids/epics I should run in what order so I can progress naturally both in experience and gear? I've seen a few opinions here but I'd like a cogent cheat-sheet.

I can't stand the thought of doing 20 or 100 repititions, but I guess if I must, I'll try it.

Thanks for your advice...

(P.s. would this be a good wiki article, advice for new Lvl20's?)

[Eladiun]

Yes, I am well aware of pugging. I have lead 30ish raids a week for the last 4 years almost all had at least one pug or several pugs.


Unless you have other issues seldom is the case that one pug can cause it to wipe that being said forcing artificial requirement on who can join what is foolish. Yes, it's more work for a leader but there are numerous solutions...

1) Increase Guild Size. More Guildies less Pugs
2) Scan by Guild Tag. We all know which guild we can accept without to much worry.
3) Create a Raid Channel

Honestly, if this is what you think must be done you might need to just take a break from leading for a bit.

[Gratch]

Probably doesn't help the future situation that the best raid-loot from 3 raids is now in the DDO-store. No one runs Titan, and now fewer will run Reaver, Hound, VoD.

You'll soon be getting newbs saying: "Raid experience? I've done shroud a lot. Are there other raids?"

[Kmnh]

Cookie cutter parties don't cut it anymore.

Every time I see a "1 arcane, 2 healers, 9 melees" party, I know it is going to fail, and I have no pity for them.


Spellsinger bards, light monks, healing amp based tanks, shield mastery tanks, all those builds that would only get in a raid if the leader couldn't find a cookie cutter horc barb quickly enough, are now useful.

Party leader actually need to lead the party! Figure out which tank is easier to heal, tell the stupid horc to take off his claw set, and beat that boss down with minimal resources.

[Eladiun]

Probably doesn't help the future situation that the best raid-loot from 3 raids is now in the DDO-store. No one runs Titan, and now fewer will run Reaver, Hound, VoD.

You'll soon be getting newbs saying: "Raid experience? I've done shroud a lot. Are there other raids?"


Luckily Reaver, Hound, and VoD require at most 4 competent people, 4 not so competent people, and 4 mouth breathers who can find the entrance.

[Astraghal]

Yes and you like trolling me and the guild I am in that is the pattern I see. I am having great fun in the new raids and the old ones, it is just more work for me the raid leader which should be streamlined. The lord of blades is one of the 2-3 best raids Turbine has ever created in my opinion.

He doesn't pug. I think I've seen him on his melee in 2 pug raids ever in 18 months. I don't think he does Epic much, certainly not seen him on the almost daily basis that I see the players who I grouped with regularly for completions. Seen a few players from the same guild in Epic/raids, so some of them do pug..

[Eladiun]

Cookie cutter parties don't cut it anymore.

Every time I see a "1 arcane, 2 healers, 9 melees" party, I know it is going to fail, and I have no pity for them.


Spellsinger bards, light monks, healing amp based tanks, shield mastery tanks, all those builds that would only get in a raid if the leader couldn't find a cookie cutter horc barb quickly enough, are now useful.

Party leader actually need to lead the party! Figure out which tank is easier to heal, tell the stupid horc to take off his claw set, and beat that boss down with minimal resources.


You hit on a very good point. It would be a nice feature if you could make your LFG more specific based on actual build. A very short comment field is not really adequate to get the message across. Being able to specify from the LFG you are not just looking for a Monk but a Light Monk could be a useful feature.

[stainer]

I think the OP is trying to control the experience/ability level of whoever joins his group. I am not sure that is something that can actually be addressed by an in game mechanism. Basically he asking that epic LFMs not show on a players LFM panel until they have a set number of Raids under their belt. Or he was ranting over a high pot usage eVon6. I am not sure which.

[Eladiun]

I think the OP is trying to control the experience/ability level of whoever joins his group. I am not sure that is something that can actually be addressed by an in game mechanism. Basically he asking that epic LFMs not show on a players LFM panel until they have a set number of Raids under their belt. Or he was ranting over a high pot usage eVon6. I am not sure which.


Should probably get all his healers to use Mass Heal when on Velah.

[stainer]

Should probably get all his healers to use Mass Heal when on Velah.

I just mash buttons. Generally I lose a rogue or a monk, but I muddle through.

[TekkenDevil]

Gimp characters shouldn't be completely excluded from any gameplay. Not in a game where it can take you 12 months to build them.

[Emili]

Kind of a silly question here, but:

Why the heck are the pots in the game if not for use?

I'm not much of an end game raider. I like to do them on occasion, but they are not my cup of tea. Personally, I see no problem with sucking down pots to help with a completion. On my casters, by level 20 I have several hundred mana pots stashed and generally keep 10 or so of the store pots on me for those 'Oh ****!' moments.

If you're not going to use the mana pots, may as well not use Heal scrolls, haste pots, rage pots, etc. They are there to be USED, not gazed at fondly in your bags. IMO, if you refuse, or do not wish, to use the resources given to you, you deserve to fail in whatever you attempt.


I'll reitterate recent syayement from a conversation discussed given by one of the highest skilled epicly greared DDO junkies... “Pots lead to sloppiness... instead of caring or learning what to do, they drink and spam away.” - nearly quoted

While seem's harsh in understandin' his point being "Player's relying on this do not belong in end game at all." In this respect pinning the scope of screening "yourself" is not happening and falling upon the raid leaders... which it should not have to.

Interesting conversation given we've been handed one particularly extreme epic raid lacking any shrines where the highest risk for failure lay in the blink of an eye after a prolonged gruleing hour testing the scope of party resource management throughout. The two eLoB handed to me come with a price tag of pot laggered divines ... not proud of the forty count aimin' for ten.

[stainer]

I'll reitterate recent syayement from a conversation discussed given by one of the highest skilled epicly greared DDO junkies... “Pots lead to sloppiness... instead of caring or learning what to do, they drink and spam away.”


I would agree if the person was using 20 pots. If a person uses one or 2 in a run, not so much. Implying sloppiness on someones play style is similar to saying "you should play like I do".

[Eladiun]

I just mash buttons. Generally I lose a rogue or a monk, but I muddle through.


The new UI makes it easy too...when they start whining I can just say "300 hp doesn't cut it" or "Wow, I really hope you plan on ranging because with HP that low if you drop you will stay in soulstone form for the duration."

[elraido]

So it is now even more going to the, "I am better than the rest, I can't be bothered to teach these 'noobs' how to do something."

People forget we were all noobs at some point. We all failed at some point in this game. We aren't going to have a perfect run all the time. The only way a noob is going to learn is to get into the mission.

[Renvar]

Yes, I am well aware of pugging. I have lead 30ish raids a week for the last 4 years almost all had at least one pug or several pugs. I use to take most any gimp that joined the lfm, but no longer this update 11. I like pugging quite a bit I just wish there was a way to streamline the process post update 11 and feel there should be.

Edit: the additional carrot for raid leaders is attracting healers to join your lfm. If you do not screen applicants thoroughly now the raid leaders will not attract pug healers because they would know joining lfms by you could mean pots.

I'd agree with about everything Norg has said. And he knows what he is doing.

I greatly enjoy Prophets raid runs. Anytime I'm not raiding with my guild, I look for their LFM's. And I have 100% confidence that it's going to go smoothly. Just last night I ran a Master Artificer on Hard with them with zero pot usage for me or the other healer. The group was over half pug.

There is a difference between getting 1.9 million xp and being ready to run epic quests. There are HP and SP and DC and and To-Hit and DPS requirements (including being able to break DR, having heavy fort, having deathblock, etc) to be successful. All of which comes from build and gear. Much of which may have been bypassed in the quest to get capped fast. And MyDDO certainly only tells part of the story.

Education of newer players has always been an issue. The increased difficulty of the new raids just magnifies the problem.

[Beer_Dude]

I've ran with Matt since way back when we were wee's in this game in 06. We don't run very often together anymore but I can say this. Even when we were both newbies he still had a better grasp of the game than me. He showed me a ton of stuff. Matt has always led great raids (at least every one I've been in) and has taught others the game as well.

Most people know I don't run a ton of end game stuff as it bores me to grind just high level stuff over and over. I'd rather TR or roll a new toon and be leveling 3 toons at once at different levels so I'm not bored to death with just running end game stuff. Gear just doesn't mean that much to me. We already have the tools tio beat the quest do I really need even better tools to do it. I'm fairly well geared out on all my toons, but if Matt said to me hey bro your just not ready for this quest yet I'd be fine with it.

Here's where the problem lies. If Matt tells me this I know it's coming from a solid source and he's probably correct, but I respect Matt's knowledge of the game. Matt here's where I disagree with you though. Not everyone will be like you and use this prudently. This would be overly abused and seperate folks even more.

I can think of one specific tard cleric who we're discussing in another thread who MYDDOs every single person and guild checks them prior to letting them join a normal Shroud run. I personally watched him decline at least 20 people for a normal Shroud run. His LFMs take longer to fill than it takes to do a slow run in Shroud (usually 45+ minutes to fill if they fill at all). I looked up all his toons and they all wear a +6 int helm and none of them are a wizard. No Minos helm but an int helm. When some tool like this declines me for an epic run I'm going to blow my stack.

If this were put into the right hands OK I can see where this might do some good, the problem is the noob tard who knows just enough about this game to know nothing at all other than to be his own worst enemy is going to use this poorly. I don't see any way around this.

The bottom line is, like Stainer said the devs screwed the pooch on this one. They hit the easy button added fort and a ton of HP and moved on. They should have made this stuff more diverse. Offered ways to debuff bosses from both melees and casters. A way to use strategy to finish in a reasonable time by providing a way to overcome the new fort and mass HP. At the same time each boss having a different type of weakness. Then if folks don't want to use strategy. Fine, take longer and drink pots or MYDDO for the perfect group. The devs hit the easy button on this instead of being creative and giving us an option on how to end the raid prudently. Matt there's no way they're going to spend the time to do what your suggesting. If they're not going to be creative enough in the first place to do anything other than add HP and fort to make a quest more challenging then there's no way they will come up with what you'd like.

[Fallout]

Norg runs excellent raids, he takes the time to explain the raids to new comers and well organized.

Screening in myddo is a necessary evil. I was in a eChrono (pre U11) and notice DPS was horrible. I then notice one fighter was using sword and board. Well not even a sword. A tenderizer from Reavers. When I myddo him, it was even worse, L14 gear. Contributed 0 to the raid, and in fact a hinderance. After myddo other fighters, notice they are way under geared. If one or two players are bad, and rest are strong, maybe not a big problem. But if a third or more of the team is weak, then the raid will get ugly.

No wonder healers are hesitant to join pug raids. I was in a normal TOD run post U11. And the party organizer was saying healers should expect to drink 5-10 pots. On TOD normal? Imagine this an epic raid.

But these beefed up bosses only causes SP drain on healers, and discourages pug groups.

[stainer]

So it is now even more going to the, "I am better than the rest, I can't be bothered to teach these 'noobs' how to do something."

People forget we were all noobs at some point. We all failed at some point in this game. We aren't going to have a perfect run all the time. The only way a noob is going to learn is to get into the mission.

I agree. I do not like the changes that were made. I am not alone in my thinking. I am not an epically decked out uber player, but I am a fairly good player. I do not want to spend hours running an epic raid, so I don't any longer. I think what has happened is a travesty. When people start posting that stuff like the OP has posted, it is evident that we have gone in the wrong direction. I will offer a counter point of view every time I see something like this posted.

[Grailhawk]

My main just reached 20. I'm looking forward to trying my first epic, which I assume will be snitch.

Could someone provide cogent advice as to what raids/epics I should run in what order so I can progress naturally both in experience and gear? I've seen a few opinions here but I'd like a cogent cheat-sheet.

I can't stand the thought of doing 20 or 100 repititions, but I guess if I must, I'll try it.

Thanks for your advice...

(P.s. would this be a good wiki article, advice for new Lvl20's?)

Entry level raids are Reavers, DQ, Titan, VON, and Shroud. Shroud being the most difficult in terms of gear needed to enter if you're a melee you need portal and boss betters; I would recommend vorpals for trash as well but those are not what they used to be, still probably better than any non crafted dps weapons a first life first 20 will have.

Once you have your stuff from there VOD, and Hound

Once your done with those you can do TOD and you can start epic quests

Then you can move on to the epic raids.

Lots of people don't bother with that progression they just jump in to any thing they can. But that's the order to go in if you want to do it in order.

[smeggy1384]

So it is now even more going to the, "I am better than the rest, I can't be bothered to teach these 'noobs' how to do something."

People forget we were all noobs at some point. We all failed at some point in this game. We aren't going to have a perfect run all the time. The only way a noob is going to learn is to get into the mission.

My first character in DDO is not yet at 20, but the need to gear before the tough stuff makes sense. I came from WOW, where to even quee for the highest level dungeons on the hardest difficulty you had to have the gear equipped. Was a built in mechanic that gave items some form of a score based on level and rarity.. you hit that mark and a few new dungeons open up. Now you could mix and match to hit that number, or have the gear and still suck.. but regardless you had to at least farm normal high level dungeons to progress to the next step up in difficulty. I expected that here, and won't blame raid leaders at all for it, or even the epic groups i will be undergeared for when i do hit 20. Knowing what quests/items to go for to get raid/epic ready would be nice, but i'm sure there are plenty of posts on all of that, just lost in this garbled mess of forums.. Why did they take out class specific ones anyway?

[Kale_Hagan]

Personally, I'm kind of put out that someone would suggest that I need to run a raid 15 TIMES before I was allowed to join another raid.

Each raid is it's own experience, and as a vet player, I generally do not need to run anything more than two or three times at most before I can, at the very least, run competently and follow directions.

If you don't want me joining your LFM's, no prob. Stop putting up LFM's.

Problem solved.

[gloopygloop]

Gimp characters shouldn't be completely excluded from any gameplay. Not in a game where it can take you 12 months to build them.

Gimp characters shouldn't be completely excluded from all gameplay, but if you build every single quest in a way that every gimp character can succeed in, then there won't be anything challenging at all for the people who aren't gimps.

What's wrong with having lots of easy quests+raids, lots of moderately difficult quests+raids and a very few exceptionally hard quests+raids? Someone who spent 12 months building a terrible character still has over 250 quests that they can enjoy.

[Eladiun]

Entry level raids are Reavers, DQ, Titan, VON, and Shroud. Shroud being the most difficult in terms of gear needed to enter if you're a melee you need portal and boss betters; I would recommend vorpals for trash as well but those are not what they used to be, still probably better than any non crafted dps weapons a first life first 20 will have.

Once you have your stuff from there VOD, and Hound

Once your done with those you can do TOD and you can start epic quests

Then you can move on to the epic raids.

Lots of people don't bother with that progression they just jump in to any thing they can. But that's the order to go in if you want to do it in order.


Spot on and the issue with an arbitrary system like saying you must complete X number of raids is that it's meaningless.

One person can complete 20 shrouds and still know nothing.

I've run across people with 40+ shrouds who still use solvers.

Completions do not equal gear or knowledge.

My Barb had 6+ pieces of Epic gear waiting for him when he capped. He had 3 completions enough to get the shards for a LitII and an HP item.

Arbitrary restrictions are just that arbitrary.

[Emili]

Should probably get all his healers to use Mass Heal when on Velah.

Was my undertandin' Velah had nothing to do with the issue... but a few underexperienced show-boaters tempted to spotlight bases.

[Renvar]

So it is now even more going to the, "I am better than the rest, I can't be bothered to teach these 'noobs' how to do something."

People forget we were all noobs at some point. We all failed at some point in this game. We aren't going to have a perfect run all the time. The only way a noob is going to learn is to get into the mission.

Here's the problem. Players need to be running Reavers, Hound, VoD, and Shroud before they run Evon, Edq, MA, ToD, and LoB.

But, because all the experienced players have ground those raids to the ground, there's very few experienced players running them. The sale of +3 tomes in the store took away the last reason for anyone with 2+ years experience raiding to run reavers, hound, vod, or shroud. So, it's not that I "can't be bothered" to teach them when they are in my runs, it;s that they aren't even running the same stuff anymore. The divide between the new and veteran just got bigger. In order to teach, you have to put the teacher and learning in proximity.

If you are expecting someone who is playing ddo for leisure to say " I'm going to spend 45 minutes running something I won't benefit from at all, just so that I can teach someone I don't know how to do something" I think you are being unrealistic. Would I run VoD or Hound for a guildie. Heck yeah. For a random pugger? Probably not.

The job of player education falls on your guild, not your pug raid leader.

[stainer]

Was my undertandin' Velah had nothing to do with the issue... but a few underexperienced show-boaters tempted to spotlight bases.

So...

Not really anything to do with their experience, more everything to do with their inability to receive instruction?

[ag_gair_eos_ard]

So...

Not really anything to do with their experience, more everything to do with their inability to receive instruction?

Maybe the instructions weren't clear enough?

[Eladiun]

Was my undertandin' Velah had nothing to do with the issue... but a few underexperienced show-boaters tempted to spotlight bases.

Under-experienced and Showboating are two different things. Under-experienced leaves Ravager set on or call a shoulder cannon and prematurely kills a Djynn. Showboaters don't listen to instruction and do their own thing. One group learns from a wipe. One group doesn't get re-invited to party and gets a spot on the 'special' friends list.

[Emili]

I'd agree with about everything Norg has said. And he knows what he is doing.

I greatly enjoy Prophets raid runs. Anytime I'm not raiding with my guild, I look for their LFM's. And I have 100% confidence that it's going to go smoothly. Just last night I ran a Master Artificer on Hard with them with zero pot usage for me or the other healer. The group was over half pug.

There is a difference between getting 1.9 million xp and being ready to run epic quests. There are HP and SP and DC and and To-Hit and DPS requirements (including being able to break DR, having heavy fort, having deathblock, etc) to be successful. All of which comes from build and gear. Much of which may have been bypassed in the quest to get capped fast. And MyDDO certainly only tells part of the story.

Education of newer players has always been an issue. The increased difficulty of the new raids just magnifies the problem.

I used to try, am only an observer and gatherer of clues ... task being help support and build raid leaders that be, in today's game however few people care to be so.

[Grace_ana]

Personally, I'm kind of put out that someone would suggest that I need to run a raid 15 TIMES before I was allowed to join another raid.

Each raid is it's own experience, and as a vet player, I generally do not need to run anything more than two or three times at most before I can, at the very least, run competently and follow directions.

An important point. Just because a specific toon hasn't run a raid several times doesn't mean the player hasn't. So filtering by raid completions doesn't work very well. On the flip side, different classes play differently, so you can't suggest that it be based on player instead of toon.

If you pug, you will get inexperienced and underprepared players. Even if they have the best gear, they can screw up your raid considerably. I don't think the OP's suggestion is going to help anything. Just assume when pugging that the likelihood of having a few not-great people is around 99%. Then get super excited when you hit the 1%.

[stainer]

Maybe the instructions weren't clear enough?

Maybe we can work out a LFM system that you can not post a raid until you have participated in its completion some set number of times.

[KraahgDaAxe]

Entry level raids are Reavers, DQ, Titan, VON, and Shroud. Shroud being the most difficult in terms of gear needed to enter if you're a melee you need portal and boss betters; I would recommend vorpals for trash as well but those are not what they used to be, still probably better than any non crafted dps weapons a first life first 20 will have.

Once you have your stuff from there VOD, and Hound

Once your done with those you can do TOD and you can start epic quests

Then you can move on to the epic raids.

Lots of people don't bother with that progression they just jump in to any thing they can. But that's the order to go in if you want to do it in order.

You act if most of those raids are remotely hard on anything other then elite (and most of them aren't even that hard on elite). Reavers elite pre-u11 was a joke. DQ anything other then elite was a joke. Never ran Titan, so can't speak. VoN is probably the hardest of the ones listed at level, but most of that is in part 5 and not part 6. Shroud requires absolutely no special gear at level to complete. None. Do Boss Beaters and Portal Beaters make it shorter by 2 minutes? Yes they do. But to say "Shroud being the most difficult in terms of gear needed to enter if you're a melee you need portal and boss betters" is somewhat redonkulous.

VoD and HoX are a little harder, but not much. Personally I think HoX is the hardest for a newb to learn as it's a little different. VoD can be rough if you don't have a trapper, but otherwise it's cake. ToD is decently hard even on normal, which is the only difficulty I have run. But ToD in no way is pre-epics. Most epic quests are very easy even with a "decent" group, with some obvious exceptions (DA, CoF). Epic Raids can go either way. I found eVelah pre U11 to be very easy (I haven't done since U11) and eChrono to be fun, but tough. eDQ = joke.

Kraahg
Kraahg

[Gawna]

This is why I don't give any instruction as a raid leader, I just scream until people just do what I say.

[ag_gair_eos_ard]

Maybe we can work out a LFM system that you can not post a raid until you have participated in its completion some set number of times.

I think we should just have two different LFM boards. One can be for noob raid leaders!

[Emili]

Under-experienced and Showboating are two different things. Under-experienced leaves Ravager set on or call a shoulder cannon and prematurely kills a Djynn. Showboaters don't listen to instruction and do their own thing. One group learns from a wipe. One group doesn't get re-invited to party and gets a spot on the 'special' friends list.

Not quite nessessarily mutually exclussive... are some out there who do not know what they're doing, they're not even ready, yet are attempting to do so with the mind to play under the spotlight.

[stainer]

This is why I don't give any instruction as a raid leader, I just scream until people just do what I say.

I can tell what you want by the inflection of your voice.

[LeLoric]

Reaching a certain number of raids completed is not a good limiting factor. I've seen complete idiots with plenty of raid completions. Your suggestion here won't stop poor players from being able to hit your lfms.

So if I roll a new toon outfit him with 8-10 epic pieces run shroud once to get the shards needed to craft some greensteel and now you say I have to run 14 more raids I don't want to in order to be able to run the raids I want?

No No No No No!!!!!

If you can't fill a raid with players capable of completing with the tools already available to you then find other ways to solve the problem don't come suggesting this utter **** on the forums.

[Emili]

An important point. Just because a specific toon hasn't run a raid several times doesn't mean the player hasn't. So filtering by raid completions doesn't work very well. On the flip side, different classes play differently, so you can't suggest that it be based on player instead of toon.

If you pug, you will get inexperienced and underprepared players. Even if they have the best gear, they can screw up your raid considerably. I don't think the OP's suggestion is going to help anything. Just assume when pugging that the likelihood of having a few not-great people is around 99%. Then get super excited when you hit the 1%.

This ^

[Eladiun]

This is why I don't give any instruction as a raid leader, I just scream until people just do what I say.

Or curl up under their desks in a ball twitching and crying.

[stainer]

If you can't fill a raid with players capable of completing with the tools already available to you then find other ways to solve the problem don't come suggesting this utter **** on the forums.

Careful. I was accused of trolling and squelched for saying that a lot nicer than you.

[Gawna]

I can tell what you want by the inflection of your voice.

It helps if I'm inflecting, "DONT TOUCH THE &*#$ING CAT!!!!!!!!!111"

[maddmatt70]

Here's where the problem lies. If Matt tells me this I know it's coming from a solid source and he's probably correct, but I respect Matt's knowledge of the game. Matt here's where I disagree with you though. Not everyone will be like you and use this prudently. This would be overly abused and seperate folks even more.

I can think of one specific tard cleric who we're discussing in another thread who MYDDOs every single person and guild checks them prior to letting them join a normal Shroud run. I personally watched him decline at least 20 people for a normal Shroud run. His LFMs take longer to fill than it takes to do a slow run in Shroud (usually 45+ minutes to fill if they fill at all). I looked up all his toons and they all wear a +6 int helm and none of them are a wizard. No Minos helm but an int helm. When some tool like this declines me for an epic run I'm going to blow my stack.

If this were put into the right hands OK I can see where this might do some good, the problem is the noob tard who knows just enough about this game to know nothing at all other than to be his own worst enemy is going to use this poorly. I don't see any way around this.



Yes what you point to here is a concern. I do not seen any issue with the devs creating raid tiers and in fact think it is a good idea at this point in DDO. There is a big difference between a casual playing new player that just reached level 20 and a hardcore powergaming veteran of 5 years. Having raids that cater to different members of the population seems fine to me. The problem is there is nothing deterring a new level 20 from seeking to join an lfm after all the only requirement is that the player is level 20. MYddo is imperfect in many respects for being a decision maker for this.

Another proposal is a prestige system in DDO. This prestige system would give players prestige points for completing a raid/epic quest on a given character in DDO. After a player gets enough prestige points they attain a high enough prestige level that they can actually seek to join an lfm for one of the 4-5 second tier raids (developers choose which raids are second tier). A player can also get enough prestige points across all their characters they can earn enough prestige points to attain this prestige level account wide. If a raid leader chooses to disable this mechanism they can so for learning purposes a raid leader can choose to run a raid with players not of the required prestige level..

[stainer]

Another proposal is a prestige system in DDO. This prestige system would give players prestige points for completing a raid/epic quest on a given character in DDO. After a player gets enough prestige points they attain a high enough prestige level that they can actually seek to join an lfm for one of the 4-5 second tier raids (developers choose which raids are second tier). A player can also get enough prestige points across all their characters they can earn enough prestige points to attain this prestige level account wide. If a raid leader chooses to disable this mechanism they can so for learning purposes a raid leader can choose to run a raid with players not of the required prestige level..

Maybe we could score players by the level of gear they have, and the number of raid completions they have. There could a minimum gear score necessary to join certain runs. I am surprised this hasn't been invented and patented.

[maddmatt70]

Reaching a certain number of raids completed is not a good limiting factor. I've seen complete idiots with plenty of raid completions. Your suggestion here won't stop poor players from being able to hit your lfms.

So if I roll a new toon outfit him with 8-10 epic pieces run shroud once to get the shards needed to craft some greensteel and now you say I have to run 14 more raids I don't want to in order to be able to run the raids I want?

No No No No No!!!!!

If you can't fill a raid with players capable of completing with the tools already available to you then find other ways to solve the problem don't come suggesting this utter **** on the forums.

Your disagreement with me is a surprise. I lead tons of pug raids and I know what is going on in the real game. There is no perfect system, but the current system is flawed. When healers have to drink pots the leader really bears that burden so giving leaders more tools to reduce that from happening seems like a win. The reallity is that a new level 20 player has no business anymore in an epic raid and your denial of that is foolhardy.

[Renvar]

He doesn't pug. I think I've seen him on his melee in 2 pug raids ever in 18 months. I don't think he does Epic much, certainly not seen him on the almost daily basis that I see the players who I grouped with regularly for completions. Seen a few players from the same guild in Epic/raids, so some of them do pug..

Stainer plays more than a melee, Astra. He actually usually plays a bard, cleric, fvs, or other role. He also is in a guild of maybe 5-10 players. I'm pretty sure he has a good knowledge of how end game pugs work, from all the roles. Not just the perspective of a melee.

[Khimberlhyte]

I see a few gaps in the OP's proposal. What about people from Devourer or Keeper who missed the transfer? They may have a thousand raid completions, enough experience and ability to make a meaningful contribution with masterwork gear, and would be barred from doing these runs for a few months, until they have ground out your 100 completions on their new account.

Alternate accounts are problems too. I have friends who have ground enough favor on a secondary F2P account to have bought a bunch of epic content. Again, their 28 point characters are likely going to be better played, better geared, and contribute more than almost any new players who meet the 15/100 raid threshold set by the OP.

This epic raid account flag that is requested in the OP would have to pull information on raid completions from every character in an account on every server. I question whether Turbine is set up to do this. Otherwise, you create the same problems as noted above for people who run on multiple servers.

Like a few others, I don't run a lot of, or particularly enjoy "end-game". I mostly run clerics, and have no real desire to even pug raids on hard or elite anymore, because I dislike burning more resources in a quest than I expect to recover via looting chests. When I join quests where I know that a bad group would require me to use pots or a stack of scrolls, I'll look at guild tags on the leader and other party members before joining a pug and sometimes check myddo. Sometimes I miss out on good groups because of the time that takes, but that is life.

Everyone already has the ability to use myddo, and can request that gear be linked. We don't need a new screening mechanism, or another barrier to entry. Given the number of clueless TRs I have seen who were carried to 34 or 36 point characters without even learning how to run the Sands flagging quests, this system won't offer any guarantees anyways. I don't see it bringing any real improvements over the existing screening tools (reputation, guild tags, myddo) - and definitely not enough to justify the many downsides.

Turbine can't write an algorithm to pre-screen quest applicants for competence or ability. Apart from limiting yourself to known quantities (guildies, reputation, friends list, channels, etc), you are left with the roll of the dice.

[stainer]

Stainer plays more than a melee, Astra. He actually usually plays a bard, cleric, fvs, or other role. He also is in a guild of maybe 5-10 players. I'm pretty sure he has a good knowledge of how end game pugs work, from all the roles. Not just the perspective of a melee.

Shhhhhh...


I don't want the stalkers to know about my 4 trs, and (I think) 8 other capped characters. I lose count.

[BlackSteel]

I d prefer a system where u have to do the prereqs on epic before being able to do the raid. Anyone who can complete Von 1-4, should be able robdo the dragon. Ditto with chains of flame and dq2. Chronoscope should require an epic devil assault. Anything else should only be unlocked on a per character basis with elite completions.

[SilkofDrasnia]

no

just no

some complained twas to easy an now u got what u wanted so reap wat u sowed

[Eladiun]

Shhhhhh...


I don't want the stalkers to know about my 4 trs, and (I think) 8 other capped characters. I lose count.


He has a hard enough time getting through the market place as it is with all the groupies and autograph requests.

[Renvar]

Shhhhhh...


I don't want the stalkers to know about my 4 trs, and (I think) 8 other capped characters. I lose count.

I had to reword that post several times. I was coming dangerously close to saying: If you haven't capped a divine or a caster then.... your comments on how they should be playing at cap might not be terrible relevant.

:(

[Cyr]

Yes what you point to here is a concern. I do not seen any issue with the devs creating raid tiers and in fact think it is a good idea at this point in DDO.

I do see an issue with the developers creating raid tiers at this point in DDO and it has everything to do with practical concerns and not philosophical ones.

The end game is just not wide enough to substain a wide enough tiers to keep players from being bored nor is the difficulty of the content wide enough to justify many tiers.

Tiered systems really make sense if you have tons of content at the same level range and gear makes a dramatic difference justifying multiple tiers.

DDO needs much more end game content for a tiered system to make sense in.

[Eladiun]

Your disagreement with me is a surprise. I lead tons of pug raids and I know what is going on in the real game. There is no perfect system, but the current system is flawed. When healers have to drink pots the leader really bears that burden so giving leaders more tools to reduce that from happening seems like a win. The reallity is that a new level 20 player has no business anymore in an epic raid and your denial of that is foolhardy.

I always found as a leader the easiest solution to this was to make it clear to the group that pots were drank (often people don't notice on their own) and that I expect they will compensate the healers or find other groups to join in the future (especially those who don't have healers or have healers that never leave the barn). This often ends in a the healer getting more pots than they spent. I mean we are talking about end game. Everyone should have enough capital to be able to carry some pots for this purpose, just in case.

[stainer]

I had to reword that post several times. I was coming dangerously close to saying: If you haven't capped a divine or a caster then.... your comments on how they should be playing at cap might not be terrible relevant.

:(

LOL!

btw I have capped 3 divines since then. Go me!

[Grailhawk]

You act if most of those raids are remotely hard on anything other then elite (and most of them aren't even that hard on elite). Reavers elite pre-u11 was a joke. DQ anything other then elite was a joke. Never ran Titan, so can't speak. VoN is probably the hardest of the ones listed at level, but most of that is in part 5 and not part 6. Shroud requires absolutely no special gear at level to complete. None. Do Boss Beaters and Portal Beaters make it shorter by 2 minutes? Yes they do. But to say "Shroud being the most difficult in terms of gear needed to enter if you're a melee you need portal and boss betters" is somewhat redonkulous.

VoD and HoX are a little harder, but not much. Personally I think HoX is the hardest for a newb to learn as it's a little different. VoD can be rough if you don't have a trapper, but otherwise it's cake. ToD is decently hard even on normal, which is the only difficulty I have run. But ToD in no way is pre-epics. Most epic quests are very easy even with a "decent" group, with some obvious exceptions (DA, CoF). Epic Raids can go either way. I found eVelah pre U11 to be very easy (I haven't done since U11) and eChrono to be fun, but tough. eDQ = joke.

Kraahg
Kraahg

The point is that's the progression. You admit it yourself by saying that VoD and Hound are harder then Shroud and the others, and ToD harder then both.

As for the the boss and portal betters try the raid with all first life first 20's where no one has those probably be a 4 - 6 rounder (if not a wipe) even on normal. The thing is if 8 out of 9 melee have these its not a big deal if one doesn't, and if 4 out of the 9 are epic geared its a cake walk. This is why most people don't bother with the progression they get carried though by other players. For a new player the raids are difficult if they want to contribute.

[stainer]

I always found as a leader the easiest solution to this was to make it clear to the group that pots were drank (often people don't notice on their own) and that I expect they will compensate the healers or find other groups to join in the future (especially those who don't have healers or have healers that never leave the barn). This often ends in a the healer getting more pots than they spent.

I am available to heal Helpers raids.

/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light

[Eladiun]

I am available to heal Helpers raids.

/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light
/cast cure mass light


/sends stainer a stack of mass cure mod scrolls

[LeLoric]

Your disagreement with me is a surprise. I lead tons of pug raids and I know what is going on in the real game. There is no perfect system, but the current system is flawed. When healers have to drink pots the leader really bears that burden so giving leaders more tools to reduce that from happening seems like a win. The reallity is that a new level 20 player has no business anymore in an epic raid and your denial of that is foolhardy.

My point isn't that a brand new player with his first lev 20 character is not raid ready. Vets however have brand new 20's from time to time too. The fact is your screening process is just not necessary and hurts some that may be ready. If you're concerned about a player there's ways to find out if they are ready. Myddo, new hp/sp showing in ui, knowledge of guild etc.

In all honesty raids I run usually only have 1-2 spots with people I don't know so it's not really an issue those 2 people are really insignificant I would never let those two people be the reason for my failure. If a cleric uses a pot or two so be it I reimburse them. It's not worth my time or effort to screen each individual player I don't know I generally just hit accept when the name pops up.

Adding arbitrary requirements that are no reflection of play skill or readiness is not the answer to people getting in over their head. They will still hit the requirement eventually and have to learn the hard way that they need to get better to do the content. Many may have gotten in a really good group at the start that carried them through and they thought they were fine until they hit a bad group. Some just never get it in their head that they may be the problem and are not contributing at all no number of raid completions help these types.

[ag_gair_eos_ard]

Pot buy ins are game breaking Eladrin. How can you fathom such an idea?

[etelan]

/agree with OP

I know the devs increased the difficulty to appease the hardcore players, but running end game content is a lot less fun for a lot of players now. I'm not sure what the right solution is, but personally I would like to see raids go back to the way they were and go back to the drawing board for the players wanting a higher challenge.

What if epic raids had a scale from lvl 21-25 like CC? Same epic item drop rate, but CR25 drops more epic raid tokens, is used for achievements / bragging rights, higher tome drop %, and possibly drops other useful things in the end chest such as loads of mana pots.

End result? Run LVL 21 when you need to gear out your toon. Run 25 when your geared out. Possibly add completion requirements > CR21 like suggested in OP.

[maddmatt70]

My point isn't that a brand new player with his first lev 20 character is not raid ready. Vets however have brand new 20's from time to time too. The fact is your screening process is just not necessary and hurts some that may be ready. If you're concerned about a player there's ways to find out if they are ready. Myddo, new hp/sp showing in ui, knowledge of guild etc.

In all honesty raids I run usually only have 1-2 spots with people I don't know so it's not really an issue those 2 people are really insignificant I would never let those two people be the reason for my failure. If a cleric uses a pot or two so be it I reimburse them. It's not worth my time or effort to screen each individual player I don't know I generally just hit accept when the name pops up.

Adding arbitrary requirements that are no reflection of play skill or readiness is not the answer to people getting in over their head. They will still hit the requirement eventually and have to learn the hard way that they need to get better to do the content. Many may have gotten in a really good group at the start that carried them through and they thought they were fine until they hit a bad group. Some just never get it in their head that they may be the problem and are not contributing at all no number of raid completions help these types.

My suggestion is that you can unlock these raids through one character or through several characters on one account. That second part of the suggestion speaks to the veteran that is running a new character in a raid but has unlocked that raid by running multiple other characters. I agree there is no perfect system, but creating a heavy static group system like you have which is one method inhibits freedom in my opinion. Khyber has a very strong pug and teaching tradition which has benefitted us greatly in the long run.

[Renvar]

Pot buy ins are game breaking Eladrin. How can you fathom such an idea?

I've been chipping in for pot since the 70's.....

[Jandric]

Entry level raids are Reavers, DQ, Titan, VON, and Shroud. Shroud being the most difficult in terms of gear needed to enter if you're a melee you need portal and boss betters; I would recommend vorpals for trash as well but those are not what they used to be, still probably better than any non crafted dps weapons a first life first 20 will have.

Once you have your stuff from there VOD, and Hound

Once your done with those you can do TOD and you can start epic quests

Then you can move on to the epic raids.

Lots of people don't bother with that progression they just jump in to any thing they can. But that's the order to go in if you want to do it in order.

I don't buy that there's a strict order that you must adhere to. It's definitely helpful, but my 1st toon was a paladin that leveled up to 20 from 16 very quickly due to Crystal Cove's 1st appearance. My guild leader wanted to flag for ToD afterward, so I went. I actually did ToD before I did a single Shroud, and held up just fine. Listened to the raid leader, didn't die, and had a pretty good run.

[Hordo]

Norg, I am somewhat confused...yeah, yeah, what is different this time! LOL

The raids, themselves, are not really harder...just a few seconds to a minute or two longer...due to the HP of the Raid bosses.

I've done the following raids on Elite or Epic since U11:

Chronoscope - epic: is this different? I couldn't tell...took the same amount of time, same amount of pots, same number of grease-clickies...

Dragon - epic: took a whole 2 min longer the first time we did it and we actually used a pot...now it is the same amount of effort (i.e. we phone it in) as before in terms of getting it done.

Titan - elite: I WISH they'd done something with this one!

Reaver - elite: the first few days was panic, now it is a Try-to-outpike-Hordo-a-thon again.

DQ - epic: I couldn't tell a difference if I'd had to. It took only a few minutes, bing, bam, boop dead 6-armed snake-lady.

Shroud - elite: seriously? The first time we did it we were expecting all Khyber to break loose, but were surprised to see that it was just exactly the same as before in terms of time and resources.

Hound - elite: Again, the same. Don't kill the puppies...don't kill the puppies...WHO PUT UP THE BLADE BARRIER!!!! Completion on auto-pilot.

VoD - elite: have I bored you with auto-pilot completions, yet?

ToD - hard: yep...have not tried this on elite, yet...just not had the opportunity, so I cannot comment.

MA & LoB - only had one try of either on elite/epic and that was an epic LoB where the lag bit us in the heinie when dipstick was just about to give up the booty.

I understand that there was a lot of consternation prior to our experiencing the U11 make-over, but after at most 2 runs on any of these raids, it's back to the same old stuff where you need a party full of folks who will listen (in other words at the very least not grief you) and 3 or 4 knowledgeable and competent folks one of whom is a healer and set the auto-pilot and see what kinds of new concoctions you can make with your home chemistry set (i.e. the bar lo).

On the other side, I have not run any of the regular epic quests at all since U11. I've either been running my TR or flagging/raiding/Cove running my capped cleric and bard. Maybe I've just been lucky, but all told, U11 was a lot of smoke and mirrors that changed virtually nothing so far that I've experienced in terms of leading or running a raid either guild/channel or pug.

[LeLoric]

My suggestion is that you can unlock these raids through one character or through several characters on one account. That second part of the suggestion speaks to the veteran that is running a new character in a raid but has unlocked that raid by running multiple other characters. I agree there is no perfect system, but creating a heavy static group system like you have which is one method inhibits freedom in my opinion. Khyber has a very strong pug and teaching tradition which has benefitted us greatly in the long run.

A heavy static group? Where have I said that? I just said people I don't know. Fact is I know a large portion of the population of end game players on Ghallanda. My raids are rarely a static group. I can throw up an LFM with just me from guild and still get 10 out of 12 people I know on a regular basis.

My point is if you question someone's relevance to be able to run a quest there are tools already available to examine that player further if you'd like and use your own judgement as to whether you feel that person is ready. Truth is you speak about not wanting to inhibit freedom yet propose a system that does just that?

[Grailhawk]

I don't buy that there's a strict order that you must adhere to. It's definitely helpful, but my 1st toon was a paladin that leveled up to 20 from 16 very quickly due to Crystal Cove's 1st appearance. My guild leader wanted to flag for ToD afterward, so I went. I actually did ToD before I did a single Shroud, and held up just fine. Listened to the raid leader, didn't die, and had a pretty good run.

How many other people in that run were in the same boat as you (first live first 20), how many had done it 20+ times?

[protokon]

I don't get all the trolling responses to the OP. Anyone who leads raids on a regular basis knows it is an incredibly lot of work to balance and put together an effective raid party. Putting up an lfm can sometimes be a leap of faith, and i'm not talking about just "DPS" roles: the tank, the healers, the crowd control, anyone you dont know is a wildcard. It isn't just player skill either your hoping is there - your hoping the communication skills (although seemingly basic) will be in play as well. I've seen quite a few raids filled with high quality players fail, because they failed to communicate effectively with eachother. Occasionally raids turn into a scramble, and everyone needs to get coordinated to recover effectively.

The changes to the raids just shrunk the margin of error big-time. I was always capable of accepting up to 6 sub-par players, assuming I had a competent healer/tank/one competent dps per raid, I was ok. It appears now that having even one incompetent player can be the difference between forcing healers to use pots and not.

Regardless of how capable a party is - is it truly fair to carry someone through an epic raid completion or elite tod completion, when the rest of the group came prepared (properly geared toons, proper resources, ect..) and they didnt?

The game is already way too easy to level a character to 20, regardless of how sloppy a toon is put together. What I am doing myself now is sending a tell after checking out there gear (assuming myddo is working) politely informing them they aren't prepped for my group, or send them a tell asking them to link various items to make sure they have at least a fundamental grasp of what there getting in to. Long story short, I think I've taken a few steps towards the big sign that says, "Elitist Prick". Sad but true.

Not that I really care at this point. There is plenty of content in this game for players to enjoy, if I don't think they're ready for the difficulty settings I choose then I'll inform them as polite as I can and hope they move on instead of taking it personally.

[Khimberlhyte]

I don't get all the trolling responses to the OP.
I didn't see a lot of trolling, unless that is what people are labeling disagreement and counter opinion these days.

There were many people pointing out that the proposed solution is as bad as if not worse than the original problem. It would not save you from having to be careful in who you accept. Piking through 15 dragons on normal will not magically make a player capable of running epic VoN.

[voodoogroves]

Nice in theory, but ultimately this is request for a technology solution to a management problem - and one that is still prone to be mis-managed (vets who may have gear stockpiled, TRs, etc.)

[Terebinthia]

It helps if I'm inflecting, "DONT TOUCH THE &*#$ING CAT!!!!!!!!!111"

That's funny, Gawna, I thought... well never mind :D

[smatt]

Oh the days of the endless failures on Titan... Or the 150k XP debt TRYING to do Reavers.... Or the total silence in chat after a Von 6 wipe... :o

[maddmatt70]

I don't get all the trolling responses to the OP. Anyone who leads raids on a regular basis knows it is an incredibly lot of work to balance and put together an effective raid party. Putting up an lfm can sometimes be a leap of faith, and i'm not talking about just "DPS" roles: the tank, the healers, the crowd control, anyone you dont know is a wildcard. It isn't just player skill either your hoping is there - your hoping the communication skills (although seemingly basic) will be in play as well. I've seen quite a few raids filled with high quality players fail, because they failed to communicate effectively with eachother. Occasionally raids turn into a scramble, and everyone needs to get coordinated to recover effectively.

The changes to the raids just shrunk the margin of error big-time. I was always capable of accepting up to 6 sub-par players, assuming I had a competent healer/tank/one competent dps per raid, I was ok. It appears now that having even one incompetent player can be the difference between forcing healers to use pots and not.

Regardless of how capable a party is - is it truly fair to carry someone through an epic raid completion or elite tod completion, when the rest of the group came prepared (properly geared toons, proper resources, ect..) and they didnt?

The game is already way too easy to level a character to 20, regardless of how sloppy a toon is put together. What I am doing myself now is sending a tell after checking out there gear (assuming myddo is working) politely informing them they aren't prepped for my group, or send them a tell asking them to link various items to make sure they have at least a fundamental grasp of what there getting in to. Long story short, I think I've taken a few steps towards the big sign that says, "Elitist Prick". Sad but true.

Not that I really care at this point. There is plenty of content in this game for players to enjoy, if I don't think they're ready for the difficulty settings I choose then I'll inform them as polite as I can and hope they move on instead of taking it personally.

Yes this is my same situation exactly. You can really tell that many of these posters in this thread have no idea what goes into leading a raid especially on a regular basis. It just got quite a bit more work to lead a raid this update.

[Emili]

Dragon - epic: took a whole 2 min longer the first time we did it and we actually used a pot...now it is the same amount of effort (i.e. we phone it in) as before in terms of getting it done.


My verdict is still out on this... since U11 I've only run canith raids consistantly since the change inculing a eMA and eLoB.

Outside that just a smatherin of the lowbies raids like speed shrouds hard/elite tods... an eChronus with wound, a eDQ2 with prophets and an eVoN6 with runforr to convince him he's not cursed.

I understand where Matt is comming from as the error margins are "smaller now". I take Runforr's plea in guild chat - claimed cursed with five eVoN6's in a row - and took upon myself to prove him not. So off we went and with heavy ringers - completed - but I have to tell as I watched these vets even I could not help but think ... oh that minor mishap y had cost x a death and a rebuffing. The intensity is higher, by how much I do not know, what I do know however is that if you compound this by thirty or so raids a week... it will add up.

Since u11 I guess I used 'bout a mill pp in funding - aye just play money - now some of that has not been for raids I participated in (which I've always done). I would say that my budget probably is close to double what was pre-u11.

[KraahgDaAxe]

The point is that's the progression. You admit it yourself by saying that VoD and Hound are harder then Shroud and the others, and ToD harder then both.

As for the the boss and portal betters try the raid with all first life first 20's where no one has those probably be a 4 - 6 rounder (if not a wipe) even on normal. The thing is if 8 out of 9 melee have these its not a big deal if one doesn't, and if 4 out of the 9 are epic geared its a cake walk. This is why most people don't bother with the progression they get carried though by other players. For a new player the raids are difficult if they want to contribute.

While that may very well be the progression for a static never played the game before group, that's next to impossible to do anymore. If a friend pulled you into the game and you run basically with them you are going to skip more then a few things.

I would assume at this point that doing a full Shroud raid of first timers at level on normal would be pretty hard to complete, but it would be even harder to accomplish that feat then completing the Shroud.

MY point is that while the level progression of the quests is kinda how you put it, from experience it is next to never run in that order.

Kraahg

[Vissarion]

That's funny, Gawna, I thought... well never mind :D

http://captionsearch.com/pix/thumb/2rub7eoeem-t.jpg

+1

[Beer_Dude]

The more I think about this I'm starting to agree more with Matt. Before you flame me please listen to why. Those from Khyber know me and have known me for a while if they visit the Forums or pug a lot. Those that don't here's some important info in explaining my thoughts. Since 06 I've never been in a guild in fact my guild name is "Banned from all guilds" just so people would stop auto recruiting me when this game first came out. When guild renown came out I added the wife (who rarely plays), a life long friend (who plays as much as me) and JYDog from here at his request so we could piggyback off of each other and get some ship buffs.

I can't stand the way people MYDDO and screen check me to get into a group. I'm well over 1000 Hound, Shroud, etc. runs and closing in on 2000 and I've led most of those runs myself. Yet some tard who doesn't know me or my guild is going to decline me because he doesn't recognize my guild or me. Along with that most of my 17 capped toons are rangers with a couple of cross classes mixed in. Some closed minded tard sees that and doesn't recognize the guild and I'm auto declined.

Yet I can hit an LFM from someone on here and be instantly accepted because they know it's the Beer Dude from a toon named after a beer. As a person who only pugs and has for 5+ years I know my way around this game, yet I get declined to join groups all the time just because I'm not in a big named guild. Yet the very leaders of these big guilds I'm not in, and most of their members, will take me without even looking me up because they recognize the name. But the tard who's also not in that guild will decline me.

I do get that I'm the exception and not the norm as most people do guild. But for me personally I'd be far better off with some type of ranking system as Matt suggested over the typical MYDDO and guild check. It would tell what I am capable of way more than the current method. As it is now I will almost never join an LFM because I'm tired of being screened and having to sell myself to some tard who really probably isn't worthy of my time or skills to get into his group. It's much easier for me to just solo it, grab a buddy, or put up my own LFM.

I've made a ton of friends on here and it's been strictly from pugging. MYDDO and guild screening has ruined the chance for this in the future because I can't even get into a pug half the time. I think a ranking system would ruin pugging for newer people who wouldn't rank as high as I would, but for me personally it would get me into way more pugs than I can now.

To be honest I wish there was no way what so ever to look someone up. Run with them. Learn what they're about. Decide if they're worth the time to teach and help out if not black list them and move on. Here's a perfect example for those of us from the Reidra days. Can anyone remember Saygirl and his/her alts. Every one of you do. At least those who were around back then. You all know what list she made and it took no more than 2 runs and usually 1 run would tell you what list he/she made. What DDO really needs is a better way to keep notes on people you've ran with and cross reference the info on their alts from that account. Then possibly be able to move that info into a guild bulliten board. Kind of like how Hordo has a list of guild friendly guilds that are allowed on his ship. This would be the best thing possible IMO. You'd get solid info on the player not just hes/her gear.

[Grailhawk]

While that may very well be the progression for a static never played the game before group, that's next to impossible to do anymore. If a friend pulled you into the game and you run basically with them you are going to skip more then a few things.

I would assume at this point that doing a full Shroud raid of first timers at level on normal would be pretty hard to complete, but it would be even harder to accomplish that feat then completing the Shroud.

MY point is that while the level progression of the quests is kinda how you put it, from experience it is next to never run in that order.

Kraahg

Which is why I said:

"Lots of people don't bother with that progression they just jump in to any thing they can. But that's the order to go in if you want to do it in order."

In my first post about this I was responding to a player who wanted to know what the progression was.

[Dagone]

For post U11 raids and epics; I'll need to fill out an application with references, past raid history and proof that I have the right "wardrobe" to fit in. Nevermind, I think I'll stick to having fun.

Dag

P.S. Do I need to go to House P to leave a sample for my application?

[protokon]

I didn't see a lot of trolling, unless that is what people are labeling disagreement and counter opinion these days.

There were many people pointing out that the proposed solution is as bad as if not worse than the original problem. It would not save you from having to be careful in who you accept. Piking through 15 dragons on normal will not magically make a player capable of running epic VoN.

Telling someone that they don't know what there talking about, and that there opinion is invalid, is not counter argueing or disagreeing - unless you actually point out the flaws in the argument or explain why you disagree.

As for the proposed solution, I probably think it is just as flawed as everyone else does - but I have nothing to add to it since I can't think of one that will actually work. but I don't think making people jump through hoops is going to get them ready for epic raids, and if anything will make it harder for veterans who make new toons get them ready for end-game raids.

[stockwizard5]

Old raids, are well, old. Just make them easy and fun.

I really don't care if new players suffer as much as we did to get the old loot (they never will anyway as the game is far too large to run a bajillion dragons at level like when it was new). Heck, I would rather they have the loot and some raid experience when they hit my LFM's (it's not like making the raids suck is helping them get better).

Make the new raids tough as snot and that challenge (and having the cool toys a year earlier) is enough to keep me happy and playing.

[WangChi]

Grabs popcorn...this could get good.

[Eladiun]

Telling someone that they don't know what there talking about, and that there opinion is invalid, is not counter argueing or disagreeing - unless you actually point out the flaws in the argument or explain why you disagree.

As for the proposed solution, I probably think it is just as flawed as everyone else does - but I have nothing to add to it since I can't think of one that will actually work. but I don't think making people jump through hoops is going to get them ready for epic raids, and if anything will make it harder for veterans who make new toons get them ready for end-game raids.

There is no solution but time. The reality is everything will find a balance given time. Just like when they changed how Epic Scrolls dropped it was DOOOOMMMMMM!!!!! to Epic PuGs. When they nerfed Waves and Tendon Slice, it was DOOOMMMMM!!!! to Elite Shroud and Tower. These changes aren't DOOOMMMMMM!!!!! to Epic Raid PuGs anymore than the others. Each update more items come that introduce power creep. Yes, there will be a period of difficulty and instability as people adjust but it will pass and in a few months and it will be like there never were any changes in the first place. You are already seeing adjustment; 1000 HP tanks, Feats Swaps for Improved Sunder, etc...

Here is a little something for all of you scared by change...

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

[Eladiun]

For post U11 raids and epics; I'll need to fill out an application with references, past raid history and proof that I have the right "wardrobe" to fit in. Nevermind, I think I'll stick to having fun.

Dag

P.S. Do I need to go to House P to leave a sample for my application?

You forgot blood. I want blood samples too and you must carry at least $2 million plat of wipe insurance.

[Jandric]

How many other people in that run were in the same boat as you (first live first 20), how many had done it 20+ times?

I see where you're going with this and you're right- it *is* better to work your way up. What I took issue with in my post was the idea of an incredibly rigid system whereby you should only ever progress to the next "tier" of raids after slogging through the previous one. Most of the players in a HoX literally just run around in circles for 95% of the time. That's supposed to prepare you for ToD?

[stainer]

Most of the players in a HoX literally just run around in circles for 95% of the time. That's supposed to prepare you for ToD?

Maybe Von6. It is sort of a circle.

[Eladiun]

Maybe Von6. It is sort of a circle.


Abbot and LoB are both circles so is DQ. I'm sensing a theme here.

[maddmatt70]

This statement here goes to prove your inability to do your job effectively. No raid leader on Argo has had an issue with this stuff. Are you Khyberians all noobs? Good thing some Argo and several Thelanis endgame players went over there. You guys would be screwed pretty badly otherwise.

Keep talking norg, you only prove your failure as a raid leader the more you do.

Nice, haha. You can speak to these argo and thelanis players and they will tell you I am not a failure as a raid leader. My guess is Argo could use some more raid leaders like me people that get stuff done, treat others with respect, and care if the raid party healers drink pots or not. Axer is right Khyber is a great place to be. We strive to be the best and that is evidenced by the fact that multiple groups have beaten epic lob and epic ma and will continue beating and farming those raids.

[KyrzaBladedancer]

This statement here goes to prove your inability to do your job effectively. No raid leader on Argo has had an issue with this stuff. Are you Khyberians all noobs? Good thing some Argo and several Thelanis endgame players went over there. You guys would be screwed pretty badly otherwise.

Keep talking norg, you only prove your failure as a raid leader the more you do.

Personal insults aside, You do know that Khyber has the largest population which inherently mean there will be more people hitting our LFMs that a) are severely ungeared, b) won't listen to anyone, c) have no idea what they are doing, or d) all of the above. I have personally had pretty much the same experiences as Norg, one raid goes fine, the next goes down the toilet when you don't have enough people that can or will follow your directions.

Also, Time, gear, and resources, does not a good player make.

p.s. anonymity is a great thing isn't it?

[gloopygloop]

Nice, haha. You can speak to these argo and thelanis players and they will tell you I am not a failure as a raid leader. My guess is Argo could use some more raid leaders like me people that get stuff done, treat others with respect, and care if the raid party healers drink pots or not. Axer is right Khyber is a great place to be. We strive to be the best and that is evidenced by the fact that multiple groups have beaten epic lob and epic ma and will continue beating and farming those raids.

...so, what you're saying is that the post U11 raids are fine as long as they have you as the party leader?

[Maugrim101]

Just want to summarise to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

Raids Pre U11 were too easy and you're happy that the raids now are more difficult (Albeit only from a DPS to mana bar ratio point of view).

With that in mind, you want the organising of groups, which has become more difficult also (Pre U11, most leaders could take a few solid players and the rest didn't matter) to be made easier because the organisation part of raiding has become too much of a challenge?

Are you surprsied that quite a few people on this thread are raising eyebrows with this hypocriacy?

[rest]

This thread makes me say
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/rest_rsx/Ponies/957620-20my_little_pony_friendship_is_magic20rainbow_dash 20tagme20wat.jpg

[stainer]

I am so giddy I feel faint.

[rest]

I am so giddy I feel faint.

Are you having another stroke?

[Renvar]

Maybe Von6. It is sort of a circle.

A circle you can fall off of...

[stainer]

A circle you can fall off of...

LOL! I heard that can happen.

[ag_gair_eos_ard]

Personal insults aside, You do know that Khyber has the largest population which inherently mean there will be more people hitting our LFMs that a) are severely ungeared, b) won't listen to anyone, c) have no idea what they are doing, or d) all of the above. I have personally had pretty much the same experiences as Norg, one raid goes fine, the next goes down the toilet when you don't have enough people that can or will follow your directions.

Also, Time, gear, and resources, does not a good player make.

p.s. anonymity is a great thing isn't it?

My anonymity is as great as yours. There is a website if you would like to find out who I am. You don't wanna go there and find? Guess my anonymity doesn't make a difference then does it?
So I saw you list four reasons why you fail raids every other raid. Hmm, your excuses are founded in weakness.

[Grailhawk]

I see where you're going with this and you're right- it *is* better to work your way up. What I took issue with in my post was the idea of an incredibly rigid system whereby you should only ever progress to the next "tier" of raids after slogging through the previous one. Most of the players in a HoX literally just run around in circles for 95% of the time. That's supposed to prepare you for ToD?

Never said it needs to be a rigid system, all I was doing was pointing out the order to some one who asked what it was.

Do I think its better that some one gets all the stuff from Reavers, Shroud, VoD, and Hound before they go in to ToD absolutely. The reason for this is that most bad pugs (the shrouds that complete but take 3 rounds) are because people go into them not knowing what a DR breaker is or what it does, these same people have done plenty of Shrouds before that were only one rounders but this time because more people were at there level things went much worse and the healers had to carry the raid on sp pots.

As for how Hound prepares you for ToD if any of the items that drop from there are better then what you have on then yes ruining around in a circle helps prepare you for ToD. Its more important to know who to manage agro and not pull off the tank for ToD as a melee DPS. But lots of good tank gear (Levik's Bracers, Levik's Defender) drops in Hound and the better the tank in ToD the easier that raid is.

What this thread is about is that now people can not easily be carried through Epic and Elite raids they have to add meaningful contributions in order to get through the raid with limited resource loss. This hopefully will prompt people to go back to the lower level raids where they can contribute and gain the gear they need to contribute at higher levels. Just like you don't start the game at lv 1 and jump into a ToD you shouldn't start your end game in EDQ. That's at least what I think the changes in U11 were about.

Did they go to far with this? I think the HP and Fort increases are bit on the extreme side. Should they have changed what is already in the game? Probably not. Will they change things back? Who knows. But this is what they did we deal with it and move one (how ever we choose to do that).

[TBot1234]

/not signed

[HAL]

...troll...

Did you notice this name? I think it speaks for itself.

[halls]

fuming behind a pseudoym and a monitor.. good stuff

[mournbladereigns]

My main just reached 20. I'm looking forward to trying my first epic, which I assume will be snitch.

Could someone provide cogent advice as to what raids/epics I should run in what order so I can progress naturally both in experience and gear? I've seen a few opinions here but I'd like a cogent cheat-sheet.

I can't stand the thought of doing 20 or 100 repititions, but I guess if I must, I'll try it.

Thanks for your advice...

(P.s. would this be a good wiki article, advice for new Lvl20's?)

Don't play on Khyber. should be near the top:)

[Enoach]

As one that has run Raids and Epics and has lead Raids and Epics I understand the two biggest fears of a raid/epic leader - Not completing and using too many resources. If any of these two things occur it can be very difficult to put groups together with "known" people.

I've been around for a long time, I've run with many who have posted here both for and against the OPs post and I've seen PUGs fail and succeed, I've seen Guild Runs fail and succeed.

In the end we can only control who we allow in our groups. There are no tools in DDO to tell us the quality of a player. The arguments for/against myDDO - Showing of Hit Points/Spell Points is still only a snapshot of a player/character, and its an incomplete one as well.

Adding tiering system to being able to participate is not the right way to go - even these can be bypassed. We also don't need any YOU MUST BE THIS TALL TO RIDE limits added to this game.

So what is needed:


Reflection on our own abilities - as a Member of a group. If we find we are struggling to complete quests to FLAG for a raid it should be a clue that we need to season ourselves a bit more. This may mean different gear, try different stratagies or another level.
Reflection on our own abilities - as the Leader. Again if we find we are struggling to lead a quests for FLAG, we need to reflect on our shortcomings so that we can improve them. Does that mean a better mic, a different party mix or the ability to adapt our strategy to match the current group make up
Education - There is always someones first time - Even Vets of 5+ years get first times when new content is released. It is the responsibility of the Player to learn what they need to know - DDO has little clues hidden all over Stormreach on what to expect. These won't show you how to do the quest like a step by step guide, but will help you to understand the story and real objectives. Education can also be provided by the Guild you are a member. Also look for training runs. Most important is to always let the raid leader know that this is your first time.
Patience - Sometimes Murphy wins... learn to live with it and survive. Outside of sabotage a couple ill prepared in your group are seldem the real reason a group fails. As a leader we need to look less for scapegoats and more at the underlying issue - wrong strategy for the group in many cases is closer to the real reason.


The new U11 raids are tougher than any of the other raids currently. The reason is that fewer people have experience with them. Some are still working out strategy and also trying to figure out how the new changes effect these raids - suchas Artificer's Buffs and Debuffs just as an example.

The Raid Leaders job is not any harder today than it was 6 months ago. In fact you can point to additional information that can actually make it easier today. The difference is that Raids now mean you have to work as a team with one leader calling the shots.

I'm against adding game mechanics beyond the established flagging to preclude anyone from participation - However, I'm not against anyone setting their own personal requirements for allowing someone in their group. But it should be up to them on how they are going to implement the screening process.

[JakLee7]

I like this idea alot! I mean, almost how it was presented that is. I think it should be taken just a tiny step further though -
1. Rate the players you ran the raid with on a scale of one to twenty.
2. You can't even SEE the LFM's unless you are within a certain # of points from the guild leader - though if you are above you can still join their group if they invite you.
3. your MyDDO also shows every time you have entered each raid/epic quest & what the result was for each (just like fight standings, look at UFC as an example - 10/07/11 - Entered Epic Snitch - wipe - 10/06/11 Entered Shroud Normal - wipe - 10/06/11 Entered Reaver's Fate Normal - Completed, 2 deaths...)
4. Links to all your characters across all servers so everyone can see how many completions or failures you have

With this method, you not only have to EARN your way up, but people can also see how well you are improving before deciding if you are worth brining into their epic run. We can't have our healers drinking a pot if it is not needed!

[mournbladereigns]

Yes, this subject has been beaten to death on the forums here. What has not been really addressed is that the success and resource consumption for raids such as Epic Dragon, Epic DQ and LOB hard and MA hard falls ever more on the shoulder of raid leaders.

The message that the developers have sent with the changes to the bosses and the difficulty of the new raids is players have to have put in their time doing shrouds, vod, hound, reaver, and Tower and Abbot all on normal and doing some 6 person epics before doing the new raids and DQ and Dragon Epics. This is not in and of itself a bad thing, the problem for raid leaders is alot of players that are not ready in terms of raid experience or gear are applying to do these epic and challenging raids. Pre update 11 I never myddoed anybody unless I was doing something more extreme like a tower elite, but now if I do not myddo the players I do not recognize it means mana pots for the healers.

I have led Epic Dragons where 0 pots where used post update 11 and I just led an epic dragon where 10+ pots where used per healer. The biggest problem with that dragon raid the other night was I took two people that had no business being in the raid. These two people contributed virtually nothing and in fact might have caused the healers to drink more pots. My overall strategy was decent, but you can not have gimps in these raids anymore.

I do not have a problem with Turbine creating a tiered raid system where you have to do easier raids before you can do the harder raids. The problem is this information gap where these new level 20s with very little gear click to join these more difficult raid lfms. As a leader I have to do much more work then I did before screening applicants. The job of a raid leader is much more difficult post update 11.

What I would like to see is a requirement that a player has to have completed 15 raids before he/she can join an epic raid lfm on a given character or 200 raids as a player on all characters. Note: this would carry over through true reincarnation for the 15 raids and 200 raids. Yes this is draconic, but the playerbase does not understand just because you are level 20 you are not entitled to join an lfm. Either these new players should not be allowed to join these epic raids or the player's information should be more transparent and easier to acces then myddo...

try putting NO N00BZ/GIMPZ in caps next time.

[moops]

I agree with the sentiment of the OP, tho the requirements are too steep. I would think tho, that one should have to do a raid at least once on normal hard or elite, b4 doing it on Epic.

If I lead a raid, I replace pots if used. For me I have still been able to take non epic geared and casual players into pre u11 with no pot use. . .It's more of a listening problem with some people--yes you either get the showboats who don't want to listen and want to do things their own way, costing the group more in resources, or you get the brand new 20's who are not used to grouping and working as a team, whom take 2 mins to respond to party chat, voice or tell--these people now get removed from my groups.

I still don't use Myddo, I have taken some crazy toons in these raids and still succeeded because these people listened very well. I was extremely nervous about taking the 242 HP Sorc who didn't have a savant or UMD into LOB. . .I am too nice to kick someone over a poor build so I just sent him several tells saying that he needs to be able to heal himself somehow, and that he was likely to die--and he did not die.

It is not as simple as if you don't like leading raids after u11, don't lead them. Problem is that there are only so many people who actually lead raids, and a large percentage of them aren't actually leaders, they put up an LFM, fill group, and then say nothing, hoping that the group will lead itself. I know that if I don't lead, I'm likely to do half the raids I normally would and I can only get on a couple hours a day, if that.

I do suspect that the raid experience will get better as LOB and MA runs are learned and conquered on normal by everyone, there are still people taking 90 mins to get these done--then people will have more time to do the other raids. Also when CC is over there should be more people available for raiding overall.

P.S. I also believe that the usage of pots lead to sloppy play.
I use them in an emergency, but only then. There are still people on Sarlona who will not adapt to any other strategy than brute force--a friend of mine used 8 pots on his caster for eV6, and said 3 healers used 10+ pots a piece. My worst ev6 run with subpar melee, 4 pots were used on my healer, and had the other healer actually listened to directions and not wasted 1600 pts on DPS spells it wouldve been a zero pot run as I was able to heal 3/4 of dragon on my cleric.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Obviously the OPs suggestion is way out of the ball park.

However, considering the recent theme of disclosure of HP and SP; why not go one step further and give access to raid figures? Perhaps an extra tab when you examine someone? Or just listed on myDDO? Times completed each raid (with a separate entry for epic).

Perhaps add another title before "Adventurer/Champion/Hero/Legend" relating to the amount of raid completions the character has done. Would provide an excellent status indication which people can feel good about and an easy way to pick out the newbies in the raid (not that newbies are a bad thing).

I could get on board for this.

[smatt]

I want prints... I want DNA..... I want a 20 page application! :p

[Terebinthia]

I understand the sentiment, but I don't agree with the OP. What I suspect we need is for MyDDO to not be broken for some folk. I do know that when I've noticed people performing particularly poorly (which granted is easier in epic quests than epic raids) almost invariably when I've gone to look at MyDDO to establish quite why they are rubbish it's been painfully obvious.

I know we have some MyDDO haters who say they take everything off and put haggle gear on, and of course half the server has a pirate hat on at the moment, but in general it gives an idea of whether a player knows the basics, even in a very crude sense.

I think it's interesting that other MMOs have a "must be this high to enter" but I'm not sure it really works for DDO. You could, for example, say must have a Tier III something of greensteel, which I think is probably the main criteria that might work - but my pally happily runs epics without that, because the slack is taken up with a large slot HP item and the Cavalry Plate. So much of the loot from VOD / HOX / Reaver's is rubbish apart from Tharne's / shields for certain builds / Madstone Boots / Napkin / Gauntlets that it really tells you nothing. I think it's very hard to code something like that, whereas from a parse at MyDDO you do get a sense of where the toon is, in general.

[sweez]

I just wanted to say that gauntlets are rubbish too, assuming you were talking about the ones from reaver.

And tere is a noob.

My contribution to this thread is better than anyone else's.

[Envoi]

I think the OP is trying to control the experience/ability level of whoever joins his group. I am not sure that is something that can actually be addressed by an in game mechanism. Basically he asking that epic LFMs not show on a players LFM panel until they have a set number of Raids under their belt. Or he was ranting over a high pot usage eVon6. I am not sure which.

Sure it can, create a 'gear-level' or 'power-level' public stat and give named item in the game a 'power level''.

WoW did it, and we seem to be moving more and more toward WoW type elitism, so why not this too?

[Ganak]

I think it is very good feedback overall.


I am torn; while I like the difficulty of LOB, I was hoping the new raids would have the appeal that the shroud did in its first two years; as in I could do 4 every night and they were always easy to form.


Just can't take pugs in LOB hard or above, and hard to form.

[Chai]

You think its bad now Maddmatt? Just wait and see what shows up to your raids in 6-9 months after theres no longer any reason to grind those old world raids youre referring to in the OP. s'Only a matter of time now, heh.

Cant say Im in favor of your suggestion though. Dont get me wrong, your observations about Pre and Post U11 raiding are spot on, but Im not fond of an absolute gate system. I dont mind tier level gaming, which is why I like having more of a reason to run the old world stuff first, but when it becomes absolute, this game starts to smell like most other MMOs out there. Theres a reason why I play this one, and not those. Player skill has alot more impact here, and this is not something we can quantify with simple numbers.

[Envoi]

An important point. Just because a specific toon hasn't run a raid several times doesn't mean the player hasn't. So filtering by raid completions doesn't work very well. On the flip side, different classes play differently, so you can't suggest that it be based on player instead of toon.

If you pug, you will get inexperienced and underprepared players. Even if they have the best gear, they can screw up your raid considerably. I don't think the OP's suggestion is going to help anything. Just assume when pugging that the likelihood of having a few not-great people is around 99%. Then get super excited when you hit the 1%.

The problem is that having a few not-great people is no longer acceptable so we need a gear-score to be able to avoid them.

[smatt]

You think its bad now Maddmatt? Just wait and see what shows up to your raids in 6-9 months after theres no longer any reason to grind those old world raids youre referring to in the OP. s'Only a matter of time now, heh.

Cant say Im in favor of your suggestion though. Dont get me wrong, your observations about Pre and Post U11 raiding are spot on, but Im not fond of an absolute gate system. I dont mind tier level gaming, which is why I like having more of a reason to run the old world stuff first, but when it becomes absolute, this game starts to smell like most other MMOs out there. Theres a reason why I play this one, and not those. Player skill has alot more impact here, and this is not something we can quantify with simple numbers.


If this is such a problem for you Chai, you should be railing against BTA loot, hirelings, all mana pots, quest re-entry, normal difficulty shrines resetting, Cannith crafting, 20th end reward lists, Shroud ingredients dropping in Amrath and elsewhere, perma flagging... The list goes on.... How about brining back XP debt? That was a big step towards the degradation of player skill in this game...... All XP bonuses, pots, bravery, trinkets, cloaks..... Ya those make it MUCH easier and faster for the poors slubs to level up as well....

I can understand where Matt is coming from.... Although, I think I've looked at someone on MYDD-slow, I can see with the way the E-Raods are now it might be rather useful..... If onyl it wern't still in.... um........ Beta after 2 years LOL

[Envoi]

A heavy static group? Where have I said that? I just said people I don't know. Fact is I know a large portion of the population of end game players on Ghallanda. My raids are rarely a static group. I can throw up an LFM with just me from guild and still get 10 out of 12 people I know on a regular basis.

My point is if you question someone's relevance to be able to run a quest there are tools already available to examine that player further if you'd like and use your own judgement as to whether you feel that person is ready. Truth is you speak about not wanting to inhibit freedom yet propose a system that does just that?

There's no reason the existing tools can't be improved and made more convenient, such as with a gear score.

[Qhualor]

If this is such a problem for you Chai, you should be railing against BTA loot, hirelings, all mana pots, quest re-entry, normal difficulty shrines resetting, Cannith crafting, 20th end reward lists, Shroud ingredients dropping in Amrath and elsewhere, perma flagging... The list goes on.... How about brining back XP debt? That was a big step towards the degradation of player skill in this game...... All XP bonuses, pots, bravery, trinkets, cloaks..... Ya those make it MUCH easier and faster for the poors slubs to level up as well....

I can understand where Matt is coming from.... Although, I think I've looked at someone on MYDD-slow, I can see with the way the E-Raods are now it might be rather useful..... If onyl it wern't still in.... um........ Beta after 2 years LOL

umm... not very good examples. try again please.

[Kmnh]

If this is such a problem for you Chai, you should be railing against BTA loot, hirelings, all mana pots, quest re-entry, normal difficulty shrines resetting, Cannith crafting, 20th end reward lists, Shroud ingredients dropping in Amrath and elsewhere, perma flagging... The list goes on.... How about brining back XP debt? That was a big step towards the degradation of player skill in this game...... All XP bonuses, pots, bravery, trinkets, cloaks..... Ya those make it MUCH easier and faster for the poors slubs to level up as well....

I can understand where Matt is coming from.... Although, I think I've looked at someone on MYDD-slow, I can see with the way the E-Raods are now it might be rather useful..... If onyl it wern't still in.... um........ Beta after 2 years LOL

http://www.ddostuff.com/myddo.aspx

That link has changed my life :)

Add it to the "links" menu on your myddo main page

[Havok.cry]

Didn't even get all the way through this semi flamewar/rehash of difficulty arguments before I had to mention:

Over on sarlona there are a bunch of people who will never look at my DDO before taking a pugger, we bring and support our own healers and dont really care what our puggers do, they are decoration. If you need to learn a raid your welcome with us.

[Wizzly_Bear]

nm

[Grace_ana]

Abbot and LoB are both circles so is DQ. I'm sensing a theme here.

To screen for raids now, raid leaders can hold tryouts in the marketplace.

"Run in circles around the Sub! Run faster! NO YOU FOOL THAT IS A POLYGON!!!"

[Astraghal]

If onyl it wern't still in.... um........ Beta after 2 years LOL

Well DDO is still in beta and it's been around over twice as long. :rolleyes:

[Dark_Helmet]

What I would like to see is a requirement that a player has to have completed 15 raids before he/she can join an epic raid lfm on a given character or 200 raids as a player on all characters. Note: this would carry over through true reincarnation for the 15 raids and 200 raids. Yes this is draconic, but the playerbase does not understand just because you are level 20 you are not entitled to join an lfm. Either these new players should not be allowed to join these epic raids or the player's information should be more transparent and easier to acces then myddo...

I hate quota systems. It just limits people's ability to play and have fun.

Some people can have a great build, know how to listen and play perfectly and contribute to an EPIC raid - even with non-raid equipment .
On the other hand, there are terrible players who ride on the coat-tails of greater players / guilds (me, for one!) who have several hundred raids, made TRs, yet can't contribute to a raid up to your satisfaction.
Finally, maybe they ran all those raids on a massive HP barbarian and now they are running a caster. Just because they ran a lot of raids doesn't mean they know how to run it as a caster!


So, here are 2 solutions for what you ask:
1) Use your raid channel and only go with people you trust / MyDDO to confirm them.
2) Have them create a server where players can transfer to for free if they meet your conditions.


PS - solution #1 isn't a snide remark (adding "please paste your equipment you will be using in the raid" would be a snide remark ;)).




As for "learning" and the damage they did to the other levels of raids:


I already posted once before on this, but the whole Dungeon Scaling (my three year old farms for me!) and DDOStore (XP/endless mana pots) made it an even larger gap:
People can easily level up without a challenge and then have no equipment to take on Raids of even lower level Raids. Now, to get real equipment, they need to take on the Raids, which they aren't equipped to handle. Dev fail.

Since raids were "easy" (they forgot how easy they made it for characters to level!), they decided that the way to fix this was to scale everything.

So, they scaled Raids out of sight based on the levels of the Raid. Scaling is a bad idea. The whole Raid should be tailored to accept the level range of the characters involved.

Using the Reaver's Fate Raid as an example:
Normal (level 14):
Reaver was doing disintegrate for 380 HPs. If you fail, most characters die and are out for the rest of the raid (yeah, you can pull a lever to be able to rez them but that is when the raid is mostly over).
Do they really expect a level 14 character to have 380 HPs?

Hard (level 15/16)
Reaver was doing 492 on a single desintegrate. Yeah, there are some higher end tanks at level 15 with this many HPs, but a level 15 quest doing that damage on a single spell? Where you are expected to sit there and take it? Seriously?

Elite (16-18)
Reaver was doing 540+ (I forgot to capture the results). So, you could have a tank taking that damage as long as he was getting topped off - oh and don't forgot the triple falling damage that happens on parts of the ceiling doing over 70 points of damage bug (oops, I mean FEATURE). Yep, Elite was the "Epic" of it's time (the level was several above the nominal amount calculated for xp - that is why I said a level 18). So I can "forgive" scaling Elite to this stupid amount of damage (somewhat) to prevent soloing (which still happens).

[MeliCat]

The problem is this information gap where these new level 20s with very little gear click to join these more difficult raid lfms.

Information gap. Yep. Agreed. From day 1 you start playing this game comes overwhelming information. And it's very easy to get to 20 with *huge* gaps in your knowledge and therefore gear and play-style.

So your solution is to ask the developers to do something so you can screen these newbies out of your raid? We all recognise that myDDO is not sufficient. But there is stuff we can do here and now ourselves...

Couple of stories...

eVon6... one of the barbs was a TR in redscale... so from that alone you can see that he has been around the traps a bit? However Nick, somehow I don't know (he is a clever beanie), works out that this barb is not damageboosting[edit]. Being the classy guy he is, he politely asks this barb about this and they have a bit of a discussion and this barb drags the right button from his char sheet and admits yes he's getting more damage now. Velah goes down that much faster and will in the future. Win win.

Or a party member in Shroud asks for poison ... in a polite tell I mention that they can buy neutralisation pots in the marketplace. They say thank you and that they didn't know. This is a level 20 happy and willing and able to contribute to a shroud and follow directions. They are a tad more self sufficient. Win win.

Or someone who I met while questing and I say 'hi' to when I see them admits that they haven't had a chance to have a go at a successful TOD and is too nervous to join as she doesn't know what to do. So I drag them into a guild TOD, make sure that the leader knows that they haven't had a chance to do this yet. Even though I explain everything to them - and I know this is a careful player who carefully researches everything and asks carefully about what her role is to be - they make a couple of minor mistakes in part 3. It wasn't that they weren't listening or weren't paying attention or deliberately being obstructive - it was more that my instructions are never going to be clear if someone hasn't ever seen part 3 TOD before in that particular role. I spend 30mins after the raid going through what she has seen so that what was told before and what she has now seen makes sense. She asks particular questions about her role as a bard and the expectations of her in different groups. She is now more confident to join pug TODs knowing that she will be prepared, be geared correctly and be able to do what is asked of her. The TODing community has now gained an able bard willing and able to contribute. Win win.


Now my friend here in the third story is going to read your OP and go hmmmm.... Fortunately however you have put all your characters in your sig so she knows to avoid your lfms as she doesn't want to do the wrong thing and be squelched or be a burden on anyone. I know you are a busy man. You just want to get your raids done and keep going. But if you take on pugs it's the luck of the draw. Seriously, when you posted this, truly how many bad pugged raids have you had post U11? 1, 4, 10, 12? You may get lucky or you may strike out. As has been said, you have access to the best players on the server so there is no need for you to pug. But if you pug, you have a choice to either just try your luck, or use it as an opportunity to reach out and tweak that player into being a better player the next time they might choose to join a raid lfm.

You can personally filter a bit more more by asking a few more questions as well as that my DDO.

You can just play with channel people.

Or you can occasionally get the odd pug that makes you go 'hmmmm'... and you can do any action you like: squelch, make pointed comments on the forums, make it very clear that this newbie has wasted resources of the other players, or in a classy way tweak them a bit and give them knowlegde to go out and make Khyber a better place.



[anyone who actually read this all... well done and have a gold star :P ]

[GermanicusMaximus]

Kind of a silly question here, but:

Why the heck are the pots in the game if not for use?

I'm not much of an end game raider. I like to do them on occasion, but they are not my cup of tea. Personally, I see no problem with sucking down pots to help with a completion. On my casters, by level 20 I have several hundred mana pots stashed and generally keep 10 or so of the store pots on me for those 'Oh ****!' moments.

If you're not going to use the mana pots, may as well not use Heal scrolls, haste pots, rage pots, etc. They are there to be USED, not gazed at fondly in your bags. IMO, if you refuse, or do not wish, to use the resources given to you, you deserve to fail in whatever you attempt.

I'm not aware of any healers who object to using mana pots. The issue is the perception by some that healers are solely responsible for providing these pots.

Mana pot usage is often triggered by the bad play of the group as a whole. As a healer, my role is to heal the group based upon a reasonable level of play, not heal based upon bad play.

In the example cited by the OP, in one run each healer used 10 pots. At around 25,000 plat apiece, each healer subsidized the completion at a price of 250,000 plat each. Obviously not a sustainable practice, and why high level PUGing in general is likely dead until a more reasonable approach is found.

If the rest of the group is not going to provide compensation for pot usage, better to just let the run crash and burn. Given the unreliability of some people in PUGs, pot buyins need to happen up front, before anyone even steps into the dungeon.

[Candela90]

I dont agree wqith thing "u must complete raid 15-20 times before u go on epic".
I ended cfhrono ONCE before epic. evon6 too... And i never did anything wrong on it ;p
Some people dont need 20 times repetition of the same quest to know what to do O.O
And on epic i ended chrono 20 times, evon6 even more.
I'd bored to death if i would have to repeat raids 20 times before going on epic... O.O

Leader have to learn how to select people. Anymous characters now have hard time ;p

[NaturalHazard]

I've ran with Matt since way back when we were wee's in this game in 06. We don't run very often together anymore but I can say this. Even when we were both newbies he still had a better grasp of the game than me. He showed me a ton of stuff. Matt has always led great raids (at least every one I've been in) and has taught others the game as well.

Most people know I don't run a ton of end game stuff as it bores me to grind just high level stuff over and over. I'd rather TR or roll a new toon and be leveling 3 toons at once at different levels so I'm not bored to death with just running end game stuff. Gear just doesn't mean that much to me. We already have the tools tio beat the quest do I really need even better tools to do it. I'm fairly well geared out on all my toons, but if Matt said to me hey bro your just not ready for this quest yet I'd be fine with it.

Here's where the problem lies. If Matt tells me this I know it's coming from a solid source and he's probably correct, but I respect Matt's knowledge of the game. Matt here's where I disagree with you though. Not everyone will be like you and use this prudently. This would be overly abused and seperate folks even more.

I can think of one specific tard cleric who we're discussing in another thread who MYDDOs every single person and guild checks them prior to letting them join a normal Shroud run. I personally watched him decline at least 20 people for a normal Shroud run. His LFMs take longer to fill than it takes to do a slow run in Shroud (usually 45+ minutes to fill if they fill at all). I looked up all his toons and they all wear a +6 int helm and none of them are a wizard. No Minos helm but an int helm. When some tool like this declines me for an epic run I'm going to blow my stack.

If this were put into the right hands OK I can see where this might do some good, the problem is the noob tard who knows just enough about this game to know nothing at all other than to be his own worst enemy is going to use this poorly. I don't see any way around this.

The bottom line is, like Stainer said the devs screwed the pooch on this one. They hit the easy button added fort and a ton of HP and moved on. They should have made this stuff more diverse. Offered ways to debuff bosses from both melees and casters. A way to use strategy to finish in a reasonable time by providing a way to overcome the new fort and mass HP. At the same time each boss having a different type of weakness. Then if folks don't want to use strategy. Fine, take longer and drink pots or MYDDO for the perfect group. The devs hit the easy button on this instead of being creative and giving us an option on how to end the raid prudently. Matt there's no way they're going to spend the time to do what your suggesting. If they're not going to be creative enough in the first place to do anything other than add HP and fort to make a quest more challenging then there's no way they will come up with what you'd like.

+1 agree with you totally.

I can understand madmatts frustrations a little bit, I actually myself use to lead the odd epic raid only epic chrono and demon queen but I wont lead any after update 11.

[NaturalHazard]

He doesn't pug. I think I've seen him on his melee in 2 pug raids ever in 18 months. I don't think he does Epic much, certainly not seen him on the almost daily basis that I see the players who I grouped with regularly for completions. Seen a few players from the same guild in Epic/raids, so some of them do pug..

if your refering to madd matt ive run accross him in pugs a fair bit, mainly EDQ2, most of the time he was leading or was the most vocal on the mike and did a fair job.

I dont agree with his requirements for getting people to have to do this and that before they can do an epic raid.

I mean what if we do want to take in a player who has less than 15 raids? It could even be an extremely experianced person comming back or from another server but who doesnt have 15 raids? will the raids be saved to account?

And what if its a newb that we just want to take with us anyway? Can we invite them to the party? So it will just not let them apply to join an lfm?

[NaturalHazard]

In the example cited by the OP, in one run each healer used 10 pots. At around 25,000 plat apiece, each healer subsidized the completion at a price of 250,000 plat each. .

I agree that level of pot consumption is not good at all.

But the average price!!!:eek::eek::eek:

I see pots all the time on my server for under half that price!!

what server are you on? everything must be super expensive there!!.

[NaturalHazard]

I want prints... I want DNA..... I want a 20 page application! :p

back ground check? get a medical and an interveiw with a shrink to top it off? :D

[NaturalHazard]

As it is now I will almost never join an LFM because I'm tired of being screened and having to sell myself to some tard who really probably isn't worthy of my time or skills to get into his group. It's much easier for me to just solo it, grab a buddy, or put up my own LFM.

.

You know what you should do? everytime some tard declines you, put up your own lfm for the same quest and raid, he will be wondering why the lfm for the person he declined filled faster than his.


(omg I believe i broke some unspoken forum rule here):D the number of replies in a row lolz.

[Terebinthia]

I just wanted to say that gauntlets are rubbish too, assuming you were talking about the ones from reaver.

And tere is a noob.

My contribution to this thread is better than anyone else's.

Oh behave yourself, man, they are fine for midgame. I've passed several to newish divines who've been glad to have them :P

I have to run 4 more Shrouds to get rid of mine, sadly :(

[smatt]

maddmatt (Norg is it?)
1. You asked for harder and got it = shut up and enjoy getting what you asked for.
2-??. See #1


:eek::D

Yeeepppp.. perfect... Him and Shade... Of course it's not the "Hard" they wanted... They each are the uber of the uber, jsut ask them... And therefore of course know exactly what DDO needs... I'm not saying they aren't great players, with vast amounts of DDO knowledge... What I am saying, and this goes for both of them, is that their individual playstyles don't translate to the vast majority of DDO players. Their opinions should not be discounted, yet they shouldn't have near the input they do have, just because they're "Beta" and they post essays.....

They asked for harder, the "Challenge" they got harder, the harder he Devs had time budgeted to do... Now they should go off and run the harder "Cheese & Whine" included.

[maddmatt70]

Oh as people play this game more post update 11 they will agree with me. There are 4+ raids that are currently designed which new players have no business being in. I think there is nothing wrong with having some raids that new players can not participate in.

The thing I do not like is I am running up to LOB or clearing von5 and I have to sit there and myddo and screen all of these people who should not even be able to apply anyway most of the time instead of having fun clearing or whatever. I would advise folks to have sympathy for their raid leader because there is a whole lot of stuff a raid leader has to do these days.

If they come out with epic levels they might have a better mechanism to screen these people. They could just make it so epic dragon is only accessible by level 25 characters and you can only get from level 20 to 25 by doing epic content and level 21+ quests. That way you do not have all these guys who have just pirate cove gear and have not done a raid in their life applying to your lfm. No exaggeration lol..

[MysteryNotes]

Pirate cove gear isn't *that* bad.

Right now as im posting this; there's a lvl 20 elf favored soul(Seems caster type) with 22 wisdom, 24 charisma.
Still using korthos gear, trying to organize a eVoN6 raid.

I don't think that players need every one of their items to be epic gear, but korthos gear for epics? Seriously?

[smatt]

Oh as people play this game more post update 11 they will agree with me. There are 4+ raids that are currently designed which new players have no business being in. I think there is nothing wrong with having some raids that new players can not participate in.

The thing I do not like is I am running up to LOB or clearing von5 and I have to sit there and myddo and screen all of these people who should not even be able to apply anyway most of the time instead of having fun clearing or whatever. I would advise folks to have sympathy for their raid leader because there is a whole lot of stuff a raid leader has to do these days.

If they come out with epic levels they might have a better mechanism to screen these people. They could just make it so epic dragon is only accessible by level 25 characters and you can only get from level 20 to 25 by doing epic content and level 21+ quests. That way you do not have all these guys who have just pirate cove gear and have not done a raid in their life applying to your lfm. No exaggeration lol..


See here I certainly agree with you, there's no reasont ehre can't be raids and or quests that are very difficult.

Perhaps an easier way at least for E-DQ, E-von 6, would be to require a toon to flag the pre's on epic... EMA, E-LOB, since Epics don't exist for he quests make it elite flagging, As for E-Crono, who knows...

I certainyl sympathize with people leading E-raids.. I burnt out on that long ago, in fact leading raids altogether burnt me out. Strangely enough, it was because of these exact problems.. But that was 1 1/2 to 2 years ago.... LOL

Now, it's even harder with so many people speaking different languages, a valid excuse. So many who REFUSE to use voice, are to busy listening to music to bother to HEAR voice, don't repsond to simple requests such as "Can you do this?"... Entering Von 5 and standing at entrance AFK for 15 minutes, Rangers/Palis not offering or accepting the task to give out elemental resits, etc etc etc... In general as the game got bigger with FtP etc.... It got a lot harder to lead raids, and the harder the raid is, the harder it is to sift through the mess... Oh and the new one that REALLY ****es me off... There is a proliferance of dual boxers around... They join, then go AFK, while they're running another quest on another toon... :rolleyes:

But I still say, a certain group of forumites wanted harder.....

[NaturalHazard]

Pirate cove gear isn't *that* bad.

Right now as im posting this; there's a lvl 20 elf favored soul(Seems caster type) with 22 wisdom, 24 charisma.
Still using korthos gear, trying to organize a eVoN6 raid.

I don't think that players need every one of their items to be epic gear, but korthos gear for epics? Seriously?

It couldn't just be a level 20 favoured soul wearing kortho's gear it *had* to be an elf didnt it? Why the discrimination and hate? :(

Most elves really are good people if you would just give em a chance!!

[maddmatt70]

But I still say, a certain group of forumites wanted harder.....

Absolutely I love the harder raids. I just think the measures to screen people have not caught up with the harder raids so I have spend too much time screening people when Turbine should just come up with a better/easier system to screen those people. Epic Levels would be a good system because level 20 is not enough make it 25 for epic raids...

[Quetzacoala]

Entry level raids are Reavers, DQ, Titan, VON, and Shroud. Shroud being the most difficult in terms of gear needed to enter

Ummm... really? I am new to end game, but have ran plenty of Shrouds on my level 20 favored soul... and recently I figured out all that time I had been using two items from Korthos, and I still healed it fine.

He has like mid 20 wisdom and charisma, as well as only 350hp...

The point I am trying to make is for some raids, you do not need good loot.

[Grailhawk]

Ummm... really? I am new to end game, but have ran plenty of Shrouds on my level 20 favored soul... and recently I figured out all that time I had been using two items from Korthos, and I still healed it fine.

He has like mid 20 wisdom and charisma, as well as only 350hp...

The point I am trying to make is for some raids, you do not need good loot.

Can you solo heal it?

Further more notice how all the gear I mentioned was for melee Shroud is easier to get into on a healer (especially since you can just chug pots to make up for any deficiency you may or may not have, or take a second healer who can make up the ground). Similarly its easier for an arcane caster since all you really have to do is wail some trash, brake a crystal, and buff. But melee need to show competence and bring stuff for the fight.

That said I challenge you to get a group together that can not brake DR has no portal beaters and has no epic, raid, or crafted gear. (lol you'll probably do this but take 12 sorc or something just to prove me wrong I'm sure its do able but it wont be easy).

The point I've made in other posts is that yes the low level raids are easy these days but the reason for that is that most of then have 0-2 epic character, 2-4 solid raiders, 8-10 know what there doing have the stuff they need (doesn't need to be raid loot for shroud), and then 0-2 newbies with no clue. In those situations the raid is not difficult it usually a 1-1.5 rounder but as the number of newbies go's up the worse the group gets and the more it becomes a 2-3 rounder or wipe situation.

[Qhualor]

Can you solo heal it?

Further more notice how all the gear I mentioned was for melee Shroud is easier to get into on a healer (especially since you can just chug pots to make up for any deficiency you may or may not have, or take a second healer who can make up the ground). Similarly its easier for an arcane caster since all you really have to do is wail some trash, brake a crystal, and buff. But melee need to show competence and bring stuff for the fight.

That said I challenge you to get a group together that can not brake DR has no portal beaters and has no epic, raid, or crafted gear. (lol you'll probably do this but take 12 sorc or something just to prove me wrong I'm sure its do able but it wont be easy).

The point I've made in other posts is that yes the low level raids are easy these days but the reason for that is that most of then have 0-2 epic character, 2-4 solid raiders, 8-10 know what there doing have the stuff they need (doesn't need to be raid loot for shroud), and then 0-2 newbies with no clue. In those situations the raid is not difficult it usually a 1-1.5 rounder but as the number of newbies go's up the worse the group gets and the more it becomes a 2-3 rounder or wipe situation.

you forgot the dots for casters and their crazy 3k damage. ive also noticed how pug shrouds are now 2 rounder harrys, pre u11 a 2 rounder harry meant your group was barely satisfactory

[mournbladereigns]

Oh as people play this game more post update 11 they will agree with me. There are 4+ raids that are currently designed which new players have no business being in. I think there is nothing wrong with having some raids that new players can not participate in.

The thing I do not like is I am running up to LOB or clearing von5 and I have to sit there and myddo and screen all of these people who should not even be able to apply anyway most of the time instead of having fun clearing or whatever. I would advise folks to have sympathy for their raid leader because there is a whole lot of stuff a raid leader has to do these days.

If they come out with epic levels they might have a better mechanism to screen these people. They could just make it so epic dragon is only accessible by level 25 characters and you can only get from level 20 to 25 by doing epic content and level 21+ quests. That way you do not have all these guys who have just pirate cove gear and have not done a raid in their life applying to your lfm. No exaggeration lol..

Nope, no sympathy. You want the bar raised, you gotta stand by the you must be this tall sign. No lame tiering. If you had to screen 50 people, sure tiering is reasonable. But 12 nope, otherwise don't pug.

[mournbladereigns]

Information gap. Yep. Agreed. From day 1 you start playing this game comes overwhelming information. And it's very easy to get to 20 with *huge* gaps in your knowledge and therefore gear and play-style.

So your solution is to ask the developers to do something so you can screen these newbies out of your raid? We all recognise that myDDO is not sufficient. But there is stuff we can do here and now ourselves...

Couple of stories...

eVon6... one of the barbs was a TR in redscale... so from that alone you can see that he has been around the traps a bit? However Nick, somehow I don't know (he is a clever beanie), works out that this barb is not damageboosting[edit]. Being the classy guy he is, he politely asks this barb about this and they have a bit of a discussion and this barb drags the right button from his char sheet and admits yes he's getting more damage now. Velah goes down that much faster and will in the future. Win win.

Or a party member in Shroud asks for poison ... in a polite tell I mention that they can buy neutralisation pots in the marketplace. They say thank you and that they didn't know. This is a level 20 happy and willing and able to contribute to a shroud and follow directions. They are a tad more self sufficient. Win win.

Or someone who I met while questing and I say 'hi' to when I see them admits that they haven't had a chance to have a go at a successful TOD and is too nervous to join as she doesn't know what to do. So I drag them into a guild TOD, make sure that the leader knows that they haven't had a chance to do this yet. Even though I explain everything to them - and I know this is a careful player who carefully researches everything and asks carefully about what her role is to be - they make a couple of minor mistakes in part 3. It wasn't that they weren't listening or weren't paying attention or deliberately being obstructive - it was more that my instructions are never going to be clear if someone hasn't ever seen part 3 TOD before in that particular role. I spend 30mins after the raid going through what she has seen so that what was told before and what she has now seen makes sense. She asks particular questions about her role as a bard and the expectations of her in different groups. She is now more confident to join pug TODs knowing that she will be prepared, be geared correctly and be able to do what is asked of her. The TODing community has now gained an able bard willing and able to contribute. Win win.


Now my friend here in the third story is going to read your OP and go hmmmm.... Fortunately however you have put all your characters in your sig so she knows to avoid your lfms as she doesn't want to do the wrong thing and be squelched or be a burden on anyone. I know you are a busy man. You just want to get your raids done and keep going. But if you take on pugs it's the luck of the draw. Seriously, when you posted this, truly how many bad pugged raids have you had post U11? 1, 4, 10, 12? You may get lucky or you may strike out. As has been said, you have access to the best players on the server so there is no need for you to pug. But if you pug, you have a choice to either just try your luck, or use it as an opportunity to reach out and tweak that player into being a better player the next time they might choose to join a raid lfm.

You can personally filter a bit more more by asking a few more questions as well as that my DDO.

You can just play with channel people.

Or you can occasionally get the odd pug that makes you go 'hmmmm'... and you can do any action you like: squelch, make pointed comments on the forums, make it very clear that this newbie has wasted resources of the other players, or in a classy way tweak them a bit and give them knowlegde to go out and make Khyber a better place.



[anyone who actually read this all... well done and have a gold star :P ]

^THIS^

If your really looking for a 'few good men' be willing to train them. Otherwise hope your Hessians don't suck

[smatt]

Absolutely I love the harder raids. I just think the measures to screen people have not caught up with the harder raids so I have spend too much time screening people when Turbine should just come up with a better/easier system to screen those people. Epic Levels would be a good system because level 20 is not enough make it 25 for epic raids...


No doubt, the game could use some kind of E-flagging..... I'm not all that sure they willt ake the time right now to add somethign like Epic leveling for characters though. Taht's sounds time consuming and expensie from the Developement side. Taht's why I offered that perhaps requiring toons to run Vons 1-5 on epic prior to being able to enter Von 6 epic etc.... It would at least mean those players were some what familiar with what a good a decent toon is, as well as the gameplay skill required.

The Epics have been frought with problems from day 1 as you well know... The concept is good, but it was problematic since when they first started coming out, they appealed to such a small portion of the population. The desert quests are a mess simply due to the huge amount of items on the lsit, which makes obtaining a specific item VERY time consuming, the Vons have always been a good middle ground, with the K's, P', Fens being good starter epics. But there still remains a situation with the post U-11 E-raids, like you've stated, the poor few who attempt to lead them are left with agonizingly long filling of the group, and are often left with less than ready players/characters in their party. Many people got lazy with the pre U-11 E-raids, since they were made so mundane with the last set of nerfs to them and the vast increase of availble DPS and the HUGE buff to casting classes. Then blamo.... only 25% od the people that WERE running them are really up to snuff presently, for of course varying reasons.


Hmm, an easier mech would be to rquire Epic favor of certain levels/types to get into various raids, that might solve the problem with E-Chrono some what... E-MA and E-LoB are still pretty far away from being run any mroe than the very occasional guild or friend type group.
I'm all for the inclusion of as many people as possible.. IF they are willing to stand-up, work on their toons, show up properly equipped, and ready to actually contribute, and not get carried through over and over and over....

But, I'm also not all that sure it's Turbine's duty to screen our groups for us...

[MysteryNotes]

It couldn't just be a level 20 favoured soul wearing kortho's gear it *had* to be an elf didnt it? Why the discrimination and hate? :(

Most elves really are good people if you would just give em a chance!!

But..but..i wasn't discriminating!
I was simply stating his race D:

(Really, i was!)

[sweez]

Oh behave yourself, man, they are fine for midgame. I've passed several to newish divines who've been glad to have them :P

I have to run 4 more Shrouds to get rid of mine, sadly :(

Meh you need a greater arcane lore item for BBs anyway :p

[Terebinthia]

Meh you need a greater arcane lore item for BBs anyway :p

I have that, silly thing :) People tease me about my attachment to my dragonscale, but I like keeping my hands free for potency and greater necro focus. Plus it was the first thing I ever ground for and I'm sentimental about it. The gauntlets just help with raid healing a little. I have the Rakhir's set for major arcane lore when I'm soloing, but think the extra turns with Amara's is better for raid healing on balance.

Happy now? :D

[Astraghal]

Absolutely I love the harder raids. I just think the measures to screen people have not caught up with the harder raids so I have spend too much time screening people when Turbine should just come up with a better/easier system to screen those people. Epic Levels would be a good system because level 20 is not enough make it 25 for epic raids...

Having raids be hard is a good thing but unfortunately there's no point in having the challenge if it results in significantly less raids being run. The ~1% of people in static groups to whom difficulty and resources are no object (in the quest for exclusivity/elitism), won't keep DDO alive.

There will always be a dominant percentage of noobs and casuals flowing through the game and they will never raid or learn to play the game properly, but they are probably a good example of the average player. It's the ~20% of regular non-24/7 players who are feeling the death of the pug endgame.

[9Crows]

For post U11 raids and epics; I'll need to fill out an application with references, past raid history and proof that I have the right "wardrobe" to fit in. Nevermind, I think I'll stick to having fun.

Dag

P.S. Do I need to go to House P to leave a sample for my application?

this... people do seem to forget its just a game if it gets to much like work most people lose interest and go play a different game to get thier fun,while raids themselves are fun(the content) many times the groups that run them are no fun and sour the whole experience

[Kaldaka]

I will certainly agree that party composition (both the actual player skill level and the character he plays) has increased significance with U11. And I also agree that it puts a bit more strain and stress on the Raid Leader when filling out with puggers ...

Its funny, when this game went FtP and DDO store was implemented, it seemed the devs where intentionally trying to dumb down the game and make it easy for the newbs who it seemed at times to out-populate the vets 10 to 1.

The pendulum has swung completely the opposite way it seems. tinker tinker tinker ... and sometimes tinker TINKER!! tinker ...

We shall see where this road takes us ... /shrug

[Emili]

Oh as people play this game more post update 11 they will agree with me. There are 4+ raids that are currently designed which new players have no business being in. I think there is nothing wrong with having some raids that new players can not participate in.

The thing I do not like is I am running up to LOB or clearing von5 and I have to sit there and myddo and screen all of these people who should not even be able to apply anyway most of the time instead of having fun clearing or whatever. I would advise folks to have sympathy for their raid leader because there is a whole lot of stuff a raid leader has to do these days.

If they come out with epic levels they might have a better mechanism to screen these people. They could just make it so epic dragon is only accessible by level 25 characters and you can only get from level 20 to 25 by doing epic content and level 21+ quests. That way you do not have all these guys who have just pirate cove gear and have not done a raid in their life applying to your lfm. No exaggeration lol..

I cannot think of a decent screening method though outside of your - actually playing with them - to obtain some perspective on how that player fits into the group. i.e. I be knowin' a few players with hundreds of epic raids competed still often wonder how much actually brought to a complete - not saying piked nor quite under par but not neccessarily part of the teams effort - on the other hand run into others who after but a few seem to be a shining star in skill and participation.

Even then, it is hard to tell in some of the higher level difficulty settings on those epic raids which may go south in the blink of an eye due the fast pace set in some like LoB.

[Fenrir_Lorengard]

Gotta love the new changes. Now, to run epics, we all need epic gear.

I think it's very easy to love the changes made when you already had a bank account filled with epic items acquired when they were much, much easier to farm.


I wonder what's next - soon, the veterans will all have their alchemical weapons. I suppose they will also start demanding that you link/myddo your own alchemical or epic weapons to get into these raids...

...but to get the weapons, you need to get into the raid in the first place!

Just lovely.

Biggest problem in the game at the moment is that before, there was a gradual increase in difficulty and rewards so that players could slowly climb their way to the top. Now? Good luck doing this without being either in a great guild to support you or having a bank filled with stuff.

I'm not a total beginner so I have a minimum of stuff in my stash, but I shudder to think of how hostile a new player will find DDO now when he joins. Ultimately this will kill the game - players, new ones specially - will reach a point where they won't even be able to get into groups anymore. PUGs are already much fewer in numbers in Sarlona from a couple of months to here (even for normal quests, by the way). Either people left in droves, or everyone just plays with guildies (probably a combination of both). When a new player excited to play a game can't play the game because there is no one to play with him, what do you think that will happen...?

The U11 changes only helps widen the giant gap between veterans and new players, creating a giant chasm on the once helpful DDO community.

[djl]

Gotta love the new changes. Now, to run epics, we all need epic gear.

I think it's very easy to love the changes made when you already had a bank account filled with epic items acquired when they were much, much easier to farm.


I wonder what's next - soon, the veterans will all have their alchemical weapons. I suppose they will also start demanding that you link/myddo your own alchemical or epic weapons to get into these raids...

...but to get the weapons, you need to get into the raid in the first place!

Just lovely.

Biggest problem in the game at the moment is that before, there was a gradual increase in difficulty and rewards so that players could slowly climb their way to the top. Now? Good luck doing this without being either in a great guild to support you or having a bank filled with stuff.

I'm not a total beginner so I have a minimum of stuff in my stash, but I shudder to think of how hostile a new player will find DDO now when he joins. Ultimately this will kill the game - players, new ones specially - will reach a point where they won't even be able to get into groups anymore. PUGs are already much fewer in numbers in Sarlona from a couple of months to here (even for normal quests, by the way). Either people left in droves, or everyone just plays with guildies (probably a combination of both). When a new player excited to play a game can't play the game because there is no one to play with him, what do you think that will happen...?

The U11 changes only helps widen the giant gap between veterans and new players, creating a giant chasm on the once helpful DDO community.

This hit it on the head. By catering to the whiny elite 2% of the population, they're making the end-game impossible for the rest of the playerbase, and considering how easily it is to reach the "end game," non-veteran players will quickly become bored and leave.

What will end up happening is that a new character stats the game and is very enthusiastic, but notices as s/he levels that groups are getting scarcer and scarcer. The player shrugs it off. Then s/he reaches level 20, and is chomping at the bit to do the epics s/he heard so much about. Unfortunately, there are very few PUGs advertising epics, and those that are end up being disastrous so s/he gets turned off end-game content for good. So instead of doing the end-game, s/he decides to TR. The player begins to get bored with grinding as the exp needed to level is almost doube, and then s/he eventually reaches level 20 again and is right back in the same position. That player realizes that the game just isn't as fun as s/he originally thought so s/he moves on to greener pastuers.

[Grace_ana]

Gotta love the new changes. Now, to run epics, we all need epic gear.

No, you don't. You can run it without and be just fine. There are lots and lots of party leaders that don't require stupid gear either. Don't base your perceptions on a small handful of people on the forums.


I think it's very easy to love the changes made when you already had a bank account filled with epic items acquired when they were much, much easier to farm.

They weren't easier. Anyone that has ever farmed for epic items knows they are not easy to farm, never have been, never will be - excepting perhaps some of the house P and Chrono stuff, and I don't see people being turned away nonstop from those.


I wonder what's next - soon, the veterans will all have their alchemical weapons. I suppose they will also start demanding that you link/myddo your own alchemical or epic weapons to get into these raids...

Which veterans would those be, exactly? Again, judging everyone from a few posters isn't logical or fair.


...but to get the weapons, you need to get into the raid in the first place!

...which is why no one is stupid enough to ask that.


Just lovely.

Biggest problem in the game at the moment is that before, there was a gradual increase in difficulty and rewards so that players could slowly climb their way to the top. Now? Good luck doing this without being either in a great guild to support you or having a bank filled with stuff.

Um, no. There is still a gradual increase in difficulty and you can still climb your way slowly to the top. That hasn't changed even the slightest. What has *maybe* changed (and it's up for debate still) is that you can't jump from Amrath to epic VoN. But to do that wouldn't be gradual in the first place.


I'm not a total beginner so I have a minimum of stuff in my stash, but I shudder to think of how hostile a new player will find DDO now when he joins. Ultimately this will kill the game - players, new ones specially - will reach a point where they won't even be able to get into groups anymore. PUGs are already much fewer in numbers in Sarlona from a couple of months to here (even for normal quests, by the way). Either people left in droves, or everyone just plays with guildies (probably a combination of both). When a new player excited to play a game can't play the game because there is no one to play with him, what do you think that will happen...?

The U11 changes only helps widen the giant gap between veterans and new players, creating a giant chasm on the once helpful DDO community.

I think perhaps the only thing players should be afraid of is extreme hyperbole. Really, the hysteria has been utterly ridiculous. I still see plenty of pugs on Khyber, and there will be more after Cove ends. I still see lots of party and raid leaders taking newer people. I'm willing to bet that the situation is not so dire on any of the servers as has been portrayed by hand-wringing players for the last few weeks that aren't even speaking from their own experiences most of the time. They "heard" things were harder. They "know" it's going to ruin pugs. They "think" it was easier before. They "are afraid" doors will be closed to them.

Psht. Get your butts out there and play, get your gear in a progressive fashion, work your way up through the content, and pug until you get what you want. I haven't been having any trouble, and I'm borderline useless. Stop the fear-mongering already, all of you. Think of the children!

[NaturalHazard]

But..but..i wasn't discriminating!
I was simply stating his race D:

(Really, i was!)

So if it was a warforged favoured soul you would of stated his race? ;)






anyway as to korthos gear, many carry that on them and log out with it on for a joke.

[Alkindus]

I agree that now more than ever it is important to be selective when filling a raid if you have to take pugs. But, I don't really see the requirement of having ran a certain raid X amt of time to be reasonable.

I have and always will myddo people to determine if they are accepted in my raids. For a melee as long as they have some attempt to gear themself, such as t3 greensteel and tharnes, madstones,etc when applicable, and have reasonable hp for the raid, I will accept them. In some raids I'm more selective than others. Sure it makes people all angry that they get declined, but It makes for a smooth, enjoyable run for everyone else.

I'm always willing to discuss with the people who I declined why I declined them and how they can improve if they would like to join my raids as long as they can handle criticism.

I think really the best way to adapt to these new raids should be a communal effort. Raid leaders should be more selective. The people who just capped should realize that they are not ready for epics and spend time running lower tiered raids to get the gear they need before they apply to epic raids.

[zex95966]

The idea is terrible imo, not everyone plays so often that they can hit those kinds of requirements.
Besides, the best way for them to learn is to fail and find out what went wrong. This limits the amount they can learn from.
and then they might still fail due to someone else's mistake!

A weekly player would have to wait half a year (assuming every run they had was successful) before even trying?

Lame.

[Moltier]

When someone hits our LFM, we should be able to see their N/H/E/E quest and raid completions.
Normal raids: 46
Hard raids: 5
Elite raids: 30
Epic raids: 2

If there is like 30 epic raid completions, there is a good chance (s)he will contribute in tha raid well. If there is only 2, ask questions, myddo or just decline (if you are lazy).

[peetrs]

There are still some epics that as a healer i wouldn't join in a million years, because I KNOW that i'm not geared properly, nor do i have the skill/tactics to heal them properly. I won't join an eChrono anymore, because i know that the last few times i did it, i guzzled 5 pots, and TBH i don't have the plat or the money to be buying pots like that.

Now this always amazed me. Healer drinking pots like crazy.

Ok, last time I played healer was during Gianthold era. But even then clerics had problems with using loads of scrolls / wands, etc. Then they went on forums and screamed about how costy it is to run a cleric (no FvS at that time).

I solved this problem, when I got into PUG, the 1st thing I always said was: Ok, I have two wands and 20 Heal scrolls, if you guys want me to use more resources, just give them to me, otherwise whenI'm oom and out of these resources, you're on your own. It worked rather well. Not sure why you guys are not doing the same. Coz if the group expect you to drink pots, then the group should provide the pots to you.

[Enoach]

When someone hits our LFM, we should be able to see their N/H/E/E quest and raid completions.
Normal raids: 46
Hard raids: 5
Elite raids: 30
Epic raids: 2

If there is like 30 epic raid completions, there is a good chance (s)he will contribute in tha raid well. If there is only 2, ask questions, myddo or just decline (if you are lazy).

The flaws with this type of system:


Doesn't take into account multiple Characters
Doesn't take into account past lives

[Hordo]

The flaws with this type of system:


Doesn't take into account multiple Characters
Doesn't take into account past lives


Doesn't take into account that this might be a HordoToon(TM) and just rode in folks' backpacks

:D

[Mellkor]

Something has to be done, IMO. I like some of the changes, BUT:

Forming raids as of late has been like pulling teeth.

Whether real or perceived, U11 has really put a damper on elite and epic raids and quests.

From my perspective as a long time player, raids are a bit harder than before, but with some adjustments (mostly for melee's) they have proven manageable, albeit I am using more resources than before, maybe 10% more.

[smatt]

When someone hits our LFM, we should be able to see their N/H/E/E quest and raid completions.
Normal raids: 46
Hard raids: 5
Elite raids: 30
Epic raids: 2

If there is like 30 epic raid completions, there is a good chance (s)he will contribute in tha raid well. If there is only 2, ask questions, myddo or just decline (if you are lazy).

Raid LEADER stats should be shown... Success rates for every quest inthe game... yes even Kobold's New Ringleader :eek::D

[smeggy1384]

Doesn't take into account that this might be a HordoToon(TM) and just rode in folks' backpacks

:D

Poor hordo.. You should take a level in arti on your chars. Have the pup pike at the entrance, then when needed it can be called to your rescue with the lil foot icon. Then you just follow in the path cleared by your group to a shrine :)

[Hordo]

Poor hordo.. You should take a level in arti on your chars. Have the pup pike at the entrance, then when needed it can be called to your rescue with the lil foot icon. Then you just follow in the path cleared by your group to a shrine :)

Hey, I'm all for the HSRS, as the folks in Prophets call it: The Hordo Soulstone Recovery System...brought to you by Drazinyourpants, Inc.(TM)

:D

[Enoach]

Doesn't take into account that this might be a HordoToon(TM) and just rode in folks' backpacks

:D

You know, when I hit Post I was thinking, hmmm I thought I had one more reason why ... but its been so long since a level 4 was in Shroud. :)

[Jeremiah179]

Just a thought -

What about a very hard SOLO series of quests at level 20. These quest(s) would be required to unlock epic raids.

They could be designed to test a character fairly (do not have to do them all, different ones possible for different classes, or if you want the challenge, try to do them all.) If they can SOLO these hard challenges, it unlocks epic raids?


I am not there yet, but will be soon and do not want to add to the problem!

[Grace_ana]

Yes. Five people are very upset about this new thing, and so we should create an entirely new and exclusionary system based upon that. That has always worked well.