Link Pots/Wands/Scrolls

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I think having people link what pots, wands, scrolls, etc. they are carrying would tell me a whole lot more about their....playstyle (for lack of a better word) than anything else they could link, like weapons... or what their HP/SP are.

I think there is a direct connection between being able to do difficult content, and coming prepared to take care of yourself.

I am always happy to help others though...
But when things get tough, I'm kinda busy helping myself.

You do zero DPS when you are dead, and having the whole success or failure of a quest relying on receiving constant attention from a healer.....seems.... not very smart IMO.

[dkyle]

Pots are like boss beaters. I don't ask for links. But not because I think it's OK for people to not have them. It's because I think it's unacceptably insulting to suggest that someone would actually join a run, and not be prepared with such basic items.

[Qhualor]

i always wondered why dps were the only ones linking weapons. a healer is never asked to link anything, so how do we know they have reserves when they run out of sp like scrolls and pots? same for casters. they dont link anything, we just ask what their dc is. how do we know they will come prepared for when/if the worse happens? a group is a team effort and success of a quest isnt solely dependent on boss beaters.

[Vint]

Pots are like boss beaters. I don't ask for links. But not because I think it's OK for people to not have them. It's because I think it's unacceptably insulting to suggest that someone would actually join a run, and not be prepared with such basic items.

Are you serious? What server are you on? Are you telling me that everyone on that server shows up prepared and knows what to expect? I have not found a group like that since ww came out. I dont like linking pots or gear either. Just because they have them dosen't mean they know how or when to use em.

[Rawel_San]

i always wondered why dps were the only ones linking weapons. a healer is never asked to link anything, so how do we know they have reserves when they run out of sp like scrolls and pots? same for casters. they dont link anything, we just ask what their dc is. how do we know they will come prepared for when/if the worse happens? a group is a team effort and success of a quest isnt solely dependent on boss beaters.

I carry upwards of 70 mem pots on both my caster and fvs but the moment you ask me to link them I drop group.
The difference between boss beaters for harry and mem pots is that your boss beaters are still there when we're
done, but if I chugged pots they are gone.

Asking healers/casters to link pots just implies you are not confident you put together a group which won't need
them. Linking scrolls makes more sense in my opinion, since they are the equivalent of melees boss beaters.
The cost to replace them is on par (well not really but close enough) with a melee's repair bill, and healers
casters should have all the standard scrolls ready. Particularly heal scrolls on healers and everyone else
who can no fail umd them are a must.

[Bengalih]

Pots are like boss beaters. I don't ask for links. But not because I think it's OK for people to not have them. It's because I think it's unacceptably insulting to suggest that someone would actually join a run, and not be prepared with such basic items.

I agree. I never ask people to link or myddo a person as basis for acceptance to a group. Now I haven't been putting together eChrono raids - but I have pretty much put together everything short of this.

Generally those competent in the group can carry those who are not, and I don't like refusing people who don't have something because they may be more of a casual, or simply an ignorant player. Occasionally I might prefer a certain class or (for the good of the party) request that this run is for people who know it only...

Casual players will eventually get there - ignorance can be cured by education which many (but not all) people are open to. If someone in the party is a total tard - I will try to give some advice/pointers. If I get no response, or a childish one, I'll generally put them on my list and not group with them again. In short, i believe everyone should have at least one chance to prove themselves.

After all you may group with someone who is geared less than efficiently, but it a cool person. You can always help someone get geared, but you can't fix stupid.

However, as far as the OP - I do think there is some point there that I think the OP intended (but maybe didn't quite get the point past).

If a barb for instance is trying to join a group, wouldn't "Link your healing and remove curse pots" say more than if they had greensteel? Do they link 3 of each (like they just picked them up from a chest) or a stack of 50+?
It shows that the barb either takes it on himself to take care of himself (if needed) or not. And I do agree there is something to be said about that.

[OpallNotten]

I have mixed feelings about linking items.

I agree, some things would be nice to know about who you are about to quest with.
On the other hand, I 2 man everything. The other 4-10 people in my groups are more for entertainment:p

I also think it is kinda insulting to ask that of people.
I got asked yesterday to link all my Epic Gear for a CC20 run :rolleyes:
I didn't bother with that group after that.




Opall

[dkyle]

Are you serious? What server are you on? Are you telling me that everyone on that server shows up prepared and knows what to expect? I have not found a group like that since ww came out. I dont like linking pots or gear either. Just because they have them dosen't mean they know how or when to use em.

I didn't say I was never disappointed by players failing to properly prepare. Just that I don't want to insult people by asking them to prove that they have a clue.

[Diyon]

Some of my characters carry lots of stuff, but I don't think any beat my rogue:

Scroll stacks (typically):
-Heal x2
-Reconstruct
-Grease
-Sleet Storm
-GH
-Teleport
-Greater Teleport
-Shadow Walk
-Adamantine Weapons
-Greater Dispel
-Globe of Invulnerability
-Fireshield
-Greater Restoration (edit)
-Restoration (edit)

Wands:
-Resist Energy CL11

Clickies:
-Draconic Necklace/Planar Gird
-Nyoko's Necklace (invis)
-Morah's Belt (jump)
-Cannith Boots
-Cloak of Ice
-Titan's Grip
-Madstone Boots
-Pouch of Jerky
-Korromor's Belt

Potions:
Remove Curse
Remove Blindness

Probably other stuff I'm forgetting. (Also I swear some of those more questionable scrolls/clicky are there for 100% practical reasons, and NOT for screwing with people in the middle of a quest >_> )

[Therigar]

You do zero DPS when you are dead, and having the whole success or failure of a quest relying on receiving constant attention from a healer.....seems.... not very smart IMO.

Having this thought seems not very smart, IMO.

Anyone who believes potions are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes wands are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes scrolls are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

D&D, and by extention DDO, is designed around the group dynamic and with the base assumption that the group will form in such a way that each individual member is a complement to each other member.

Not every member is strong, not every member is smart, not every member is wise -- but together they have the strength, intelligence, wisdom and other skills and abilities to achieve their mission.

To think that every player will be entirely self sufficient is to revel in one's own ignorance.

It is impractical to expect a character built for maximum strength and DPS to see to their own heals and buffs. More so when there are members of the group who are more capable of providing this.

The issue with DDO at this moment is that they have intentionally shut out the combat classes with the buffs to spell casters. Because spell casters can provide for themselves AND also satisfy the damage requirements in every quest the combat classes are entirely irrelevant.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging this or expecting every group member to be a spell caster. But, to work backwards from this and expect every combat class to care for its own self is the epitome of ignorance and selfishness.

That the attitude pervades the forums and appears to be reflected in Turbine's development of the game only illustrates how dead the combat classes really are.

If a player hopes to be competitive in the present DDO environment they should only be playing spell casters of some type.

[Vint]

Generally those competent in the group can carry those who are not, However, as far as the OP - I do think there is some point there that I think the OP intended (but maybe didn't quite get the point past).

I think that is part of the problem. When you say "carry those who are not", that is what the op might have meant and what I am talking about. I dont want to put the fate of my double madstoned, frenzied barb in the hands of one of "those who are not competent" to heal me.

I dont require anyone link anything in chat. The biggest idiot that dosent know how to play his toon can have a million mana pots. If he chooses to use them is the question.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just to clear somethings up...

I wouldn't actually ask anyone to link anything...ever.

And I wasn't really talking about Clerics and mana pots.

[Rawel_San]

Having this thought seems not very smart, IMO.

Anyone who believes potions are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes wands are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes scrolls are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

<snip>

For 95% of the game this patently untrue. I have soloed most of the content on elite on a melee with just
heal scrolls and not even those used too much, and I'm a gimp player.

Moreover it's not about only healing yourself with pots or only healing yourself with scrolls/wands. It's about
contributing to your own well being by being well prepared having curse/prot/blindness/poison/resist pots,
having gh clickies, fire shield scrolls, jump clickies, invis clickies. All my melees have those cause it saves time and mana.
Some of them take time/effort to get and that's why we have casting classes to help out, but you should be trying.

[Enoach]

Having this thought seems not very smart, IMO.

Anyone who believes potions are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes wands are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes scrolls are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

D&D, and by extention DDO, is designed around the group dynamic and with the base assumption that the group will form in such a way that each individual member is a complement to each other member.

Not every member is strong, not every member is smart, not every member is wise -- but together they have the strength, intelligence, wisdom and other skills and abilities to achieve their mission.

To think that every player will be entirely self sufficient is to revel in one's own ignorance.

It is impractical to expect a character built for maximum strength and DPS to see to their own heals and buffs. More so when there are members of the group who are more capable of providing this.

The issue with DDO at this moment is that they have intentionally shut out the combat classes with the buffs to spell casters. Because spell casters can provide for themselves AND also satisfy the damage requirements in every quest the combat classes are entirely irrelevant.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging this or expecting every group member to be a spell caster. But, to work backwards from this and expect every combat class to care for its own self is the epitome of ignorance and selfishness.

That the attitude pervades the forums and appears to be reflected in Turbine's development of the game only illustrates how dead the combat classes really are.

If a player hopes to be competitive in the present DDO environment they should only be playing spell casters of some type.

There are two types of Self sufficiency

The Island - Totally self contained does not need anything from anyone

The Peninsula - carries potions/equipment to take care of minor ailments suchas curses, poison, minor stat/exhaustion - enough cure potions not necessarily to fill up, but to help from being under 0. This can but not always includes minor buff potions like Heroism, rage, and Haste to fill in the gaps between casting.

Not everyone can be an Island, but we can all strive to be a Peninsula. The main reason is to have some ability to keep yourself from dieing is that you want to do everything you can to complete a quest, and be able to keep yourself alive in cases where you get cut off from the rest of the team.

Self preservation is a good thing. Party preservation is even better.

[Bengalih]

Generally those competent in the group can carry those who are not, However, as far as the OP - I do think there is some point there that I think the OP intended (but maybe didn't quite get the point past).

I think that is part of the problem. When you say "carry those who are not", that is what the op might have meant and what I am talking about. I dont want to put the fate of my double madstoned, frenzied barb in the hands of one of "those who are not competent" to heal me.

I dont require anyone link anything in chat. The biggest idiot that dosent know how to play his toon can have a million mana pots. If he chooses to use them is the question.

Way to take two separate sentiments from my post and misquote them together for different effect.

Personally, I wear my my madstones only in boss fights where the group is getting healed anyway. Throughout the rest of the quest they are off, as they impair my ability to heal myself (or others) should I find myself in that predicament.

As others have already pointed out - DDO is not like D&D it is NOT in its current form a must group type of scenario. Most content can be soloed, and most Elite/epic/raid content can be done with fractional parties. In those fractional parties most people are competent at taking care of themselves.

Again, I'm not saying that barb should have to solo the boss with no heals. There are many situations that group play is smarter (either part of a quest or an entire one) and soloing it is generally just an experiment or to prove a point and probably isn't the most effective or fun way.

I do agree that just having an item doesn't mean you know how to use it. But if every melee character carried around their own healing pots, remove curse, gh clicky, etc - I think that is a good step to being self sufficient.

I personally don't agree with someone who builds their toon for "the group" and thus carries around no equipment to mitigate negative effects on themselves. (Unless you run in a static group where everyone only plays a niche roll)

What if there are 5 men down and you, the barb are the only one standing up. You have escaped imminent danger for now, but you have 5hp left (and 30 seconds until your rage wears off). You have no heal pots and in order to get to the cleric's stone you have to wade past a bunch of mobs?

Recovering from this situation can be the difference between a good (read: versatile) player/toon and a dud. It doesn't matter what class you are. If you can chug a few CSW pots, cast invis on your self, run through and toss a raise dead clicky on the cleric - you may have just salvaged the quest.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Having this thought seems not very smart, IMO.

Anyone who believes potions are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes wands are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

Anyone who believes scrolls are sufficient for a character is fooling themself.

D&D, and by extention DDO, is designed around the group dynamic and with the base assumption that the group will form in such a way that each individual member is a complement to each other member.

Not every member is strong, not every member is smart, not every member is wise -- but together they have the strength, intelligence, wisdom and other skills and abilities to achieve their mission.

To think that every player will be entirely self sufficient is to revel in one's own ignorance.

It is impractical to expect a character built for maximum strength and DPS to see to their own heals and buffs. More so when there are members of the group who are more capable of providing this.

The issue with DDO at this moment is that they have intentionally shut out the combat classes with the buffs to spell casters. Because spell casters can provide for themselves AND also satisfy the damage requirements in every quest the combat classes are entirely irrelevant.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging this or expecting every group member to be a spell caster. But, to work backwards from this and expect every combat class to care for its own self is the epitome of ignorance and selfishness.

That the attitude pervades the forums and appears to be reflected in Turbine's development of the game only illustrates how dead the combat classes really are.

If a player hopes to be competitive in the present DDO environment they should only be playing spell casters of some type.

And if your healer dies (or just sucks) you just quit?

If you depend on someone else for your heals, and for some reason you don't/can't get them, then you just give up? Fail the quest?

Plenty of posts about Barbarians soloing some of the most difficult content.

But... my position has always been that the party should work together and help each other.

I just think the first part of helping others is to learn how to help yourself.



And... I really, really hate waiting for healers.
Standing around is not fun. much more fun to just go with whatever classes I can get and go get er done.

I took part in a "no healer" ToD normal run. And I think the guy that put that together did one on elite too. So I know that it is possible to do any quest without a healer. (or healing class anyway)

Yes, some classes have an easier time being self sufficient than others.


Actually, I did not intent this post to be about self sufficiency. Not exactly anyway.
There is a difference between wanting a healer in your group, and having zero intention to ever heal yourself....

Clerics die. PUGs suck.
And I like to do hard quests.

IMO, if you do not carry a single healing pot, you are not prepared to do difficult content.

SP pots are expensive. Expecting clerics to have an infinate supply of SP is...not right IMO.
Why should the healer be the only guy to spend consumables to complete a quest?

If everyone makes an effort to share the healing costs, it makes people want to play healer for that group more often.

My Fvs goes broke in almost every single quest I do on her...... partially because I over heal.... but mostly because PUGers make zero attempt to minimize incoing damage or to heal some of their own damage.

My other characters are quite often the last guy standing....and standing a long time, simply because I carry some method of self healing.

I've seen quests fail as people were slowly whitled away to 0 HP, because a cleric died and no one could rez him. (and no one carried any pots to heal themselves)

You don't have to e totally self sufficient, but being totally dependant on someone else is not being a professional adventurer IMO.

[smeggy1384]

Well i feel ashamed, here i have been carrying my trusty ol sword from pre-korthos about to link, and people go talking about these fancy items..

[Talon_Moonshadow]

For 95% of the game this patently untrue. I have soloed most of the content on elite on a melee with just
heal scrolls and not even those used too much, and I'm a gimp player.

Moreover it's not about only healing yourself with pots or only healing yourself with scrolls/wands. It's about
contributing to your own well being by being well prepared having curse/prot/blindness/poison/resist pots,
having gh clickies, fire shield scrolls, jump clickies, invis clickies. All my melees have those cause it saves time and mana.
Some of them take time/effort to get and that's why we have casting classes to help out, but you should be trying.

My favorite kinds of groups are those where when one guy gets a curse over his head, three guys whip out wands and race to remove it for him.

It's not just carrying your own healing, it is the atitude of being prepared.

I gladly use my resources on others. The whole party should work together, and help each other as best they can.

But simply showing up in a robe with a green greataxe is not enough IMO.

I hate hearing "heal please!"
I hate rezzing someone and seeing them just stand there with 1HP.
I hate getting incapped on my Cleric and seeing everyone just stand there while I bleed out.

If I am the healer, I do no tmind healing you. But I'm poor. I run out of SP. What you gonna do now? Quit?

Sometimes people split up. Sometimes they choose to, sometimes they have no choice.

I'm not talking about a main tank here, trying to hold boss agro.

No! the guy tanking the boss should not be drinking pots.
But every one else needs to do something to take care of themselves if needed.

And if a healer dies, it would be great if the group was able to get him back up, and if everyone could take care of themselves for a little while.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

There are two types of Self sufficiency

The Island - Totally self contained does not need anything from anyone

The Peninsula - carries potions/equipment to take care of minor ailments suchas curses, poison, minor stat/exhaustion - enough cure potions not necessarily to fill up, but to help from being under 0. This can but not always includes minor buff potions like Heroism, rage, and Haste to fill in the gaps between casting.

Not everyone can be an Island, but we can all strive to be a Peninsula. The main reason is to have some ability to keep yourself from dieing is that you want to do everything you can to complete a quest, and be able to keep yourself alive in cases where you get cut off from the rest of the team.

Self preservation is a good thing. Party preservation is even better.

I like this! ;)

[Galeria]

I don't group with people who want me to pass some arbitrary test they've devised that supposedly tells them "my playstyle."

My playstyle is probably that I'll just go solo it and finish before you get a group that you can feel secure with.

Please be sure to let us know in the LFM that you'll be checking our inventories so that I don't waste my time by clicking "join."

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Recovering from this situation can be the difference between a good (read: versatile) player/toon and a dud. It doesn't matter what class you are. If you can chug a few CSW pots, cast invis on your self, run through and toss a raise dead clicky on the cleric - you may have just salvaged the quest.

My favorite part of the game. :D

[Vint]

I do agree with you and all of my toons have the standard haste,rage,restore,cure, blindness pots. These are very important for people to have.

But back to the other point I am not trying to mix anything. I'll re examine your post.


Generally those competent in the group can carry those who are not, and I don't like refusing people who don't have something because they may be more of a casual, or simply an ignorant player.

The big problem I find with this statement and with the effect of post 11 raids is that we dont want to hold anyone accountable. Are we affraid it might hurt their feelings to ask why they are in competent? This leads to bad things, and on a grander scale with even more incmpetent people.

You wont find good healers that want to waste resources on the incompetent DPS in the group.

You wont find good DPS to join a group becaus ethey wont get heals from an incompetent healer.

You group with whoever you like, play however you like, but I am telling you this is a problem at end game and we need to start making the incompetent accountable.

[Galeria]

You group with whoever you like, play however you like, but I am telling you this is a problem at end game and we need to start making the incompetent accountable.

This is not the military. It's not even a business. It's a game. You can't "make" other players do anything.

[mournbladereigns]

You do zero DPS when you are dead ...

Only if your a gimp! :)

[Diyon]

Only if your a gimp! :)

Ya! My DoTs keep going after I'm dead! =P

[Qhualor]

I carry upwards of 70 mem pots on both my caster and fvs but the moment you ask me to link them I drop group.
The difference between boss beaters for harry and mem pots is that your boss beaters are still there when we're
done, but if I chugged pots they are gone.

Asking healers/casters to link pots just implies you are not confident you put together a group which won't need
them. Linking scrolls makes more sense in my opinion, since they are the equivalent of melees boss beaters.
The cost to replace them is on par (well not really but close enough) with a melee's repair bill, and healers
casters should have all the standard scrolls ready. Particularly heal scrolls on healers and everyone else
who can no fail umd them are a must.

I don't care about linking pots. I can see why people wouldn't want others to know how many they have. Maybe casters could link their spell pen weapons or whatever they use in their hands. Same with healers. If dps need to link boss beaters than blue bars should link their gear to see if its at least good enough to run a quest. Boss beaters can also break if a fight goes on for a very long time and you die a couple times forcing you to resort to something not quite as effective. Its not the norm, but its happened to me on several occasions. I've also come across people who refuse to drink even a pot, even when someone offers to replace it, and have no bauble, talisman or even the necklace from korthos. In some cases I can see why gear needs to be good enough and not wearing low level stuff for high level raids, but not saying it needs to be epic. I think not making healers and casters link stuff like dps have to is more because the party leader wants to fill the group and assumes they come prepared because normally they would have proper prepared spells, pots and scrolls.

[Callavan]

I think having people link what pots, wands, scrolls, etc. they are carrying would tell me a whole lot more about their....playstyle (for lack of a better word) than anything else they could link, like weapons... or what their HP/SP are.

Possibly, but to me such a request would also sound a lot like "Squelch me, please. I can't play my own character well enough so I feel like I need to play yours too."

[danotmano1998]

Agreed. That's why I created this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=337257


So that everyone has a glimpse of what "self sufficiency" and "being prepared" actually means in DDO.

[Rawel_San]

I don't group with people who want me to pass some arbitrary test they've devised that supposedly tells them "my playstyle."

My playstyle is probably that I'll just go solo it and finish before you get a group that you can feel secure with.

Please be sure to let us know in the LFM that you'll be checking our inventories so that I don't waste my time by clicking "join."

This is an extremely arrogant post. The only place good players check for boss beaters/heal scrolls/whatnot are
raids and even then just the harder ones. If you can go solo hard ToD feel free to not bother ever linking
anything since if you're on my server chances are I will know you anyhow (hell even if you're not there is a good
chance of it since you will probbly have posted in the achievements forum).

If you can't solo hard ToD then maybe you do want to get into a group and if I'm forming one I will probably ask
you to grab a 100 heal scrolls if you're on a heal scroll capable char and I might even check if you have DR
breakers. If that's too much to ask, tough luck.

Note: I don't check for curse pots but if you don't have them and haven't told me you're a new player I will have
the healers not heal you and will ridicule you.

Neg rep for this post really? can I get an explanation why that would be from whomever felt it deserved it?

[Bengalih]

The big problem I find with this statement and with the effect of post 11 raids is that we dont want to hold anyone accountable. Are we affraid it might hurt their feelings to ask why they are in competent? This leads to bad things, and on a grander scale with even more incmpetent people.

You wont find good healers that want to waste resources on the incompetent DPS in the group.

You wont find good DPS to join a group becaus ethey wont get heals from an incompetent healer.


Again, I'm not really for having anyone link anything. My MyDDO is broken on my main toon, and I get asked a lot by those who don't know me. I never respond and either go off and solo it or go do something else.

BUT, from the OP - if we were asking people to link things, I do agree there are other items a toon may carry other then their weapon/armor that may be a better indicator of their play style and thus if you might want them in a party. And that's all I'm really agreeing with there.

To your point - yes I DON'T think you should be asking people why they are incompetent. You should be helping them get competent and the way to do that is to let them in groups and show them how things should be done. Some people won't learn - and that's what a "friends" list is for.

Honestly if you are putting an Elite VoD lets say, you are probably already taking people that you know - and enough that you feel confident finishing the quest. No one is going to expect the main tank to remove his own curse - and if the other fighter you took doesn't remove his and keeps on dying...well it's probably not gonna mean a loss - and you can educate him after the quest. If his response is "get bent" or "whaddya mean dat what clerc for!!" then *squelch*. If his response is "yeah man, sorry about that - my supply ran dry 2 mins in!" then maybe he gets another chance.

[Therigar]

And if your healer dies (or just sucks) you just quit?

Every quest in this game can be completed by a competent party. Most can be completed by a competent player. But, there is a significant difference between what is done solo and what is done in a group.

The average barbarian does not solo elite content at or above level. Making references to players who achieve this feat as if it were normal or commonplace is deceitful. Pretending that the tenor of the discussion is about emergency situations is also deceitful.

D&D is a game which relies on multiple characters of different skills and abilities working together to create something stronger than any one of them alone could ever hope to be. DDO has turned that into a game where the only characters that matter are the ones with blue bars.

These two things taken together -- the deceitfulness of pretending that soloing characters are just like everyone else (instead of the insanely equipped and twinked out builds that they really are) AND Turbine's love affair with spell casters -- wrongly leads people to think that teamwork and cooperation are no longer the foundation of group success.

Instead it is an "all about me" mentality that is becoming more and more commonplace with less and less "let's combine our skills for success." Should a player be prepared for when the cleric dies? Certainly. But that isn't justification for the extremism of the original post or the expectation that every person should carry stacks of scroll, potions or wands.

Clerics, bards, rangers, paladins and favored souls all have the ability to heal others. In most groups there is a tacit understanding that they will do that. Does this prevent a fighter or barbarian or rogue or other class from having some amount of self healing? No. But the normal dynamic is for that to be minimal and to be used only in extreme emergency.

The same thing is true for buffs. Yes, a character could carry every type of protection from elements potion -- but mass spells are faster and, in the long run, cheaper and longer lasting. Most stat spells are pointless as +4 items are easy to get and virtually every character has +6 or better for every critical stat by L20.

Poison and disease are typically handled by items. So what's left? I can suck down a haste potion every minute OR the wizard, sorcerer or bard can cast it once and I'm good for 5 minutes at a time.

The idea that every character who doesn't have innate spell casting can, should or would carry some of every type of useful buff and curative is simply unrealistic. And, it speaks to a selfishness on the part of the caster community who are unwilling to accept that DDO is, like its D&D roots, a group game in which success is not based on individual greatness but on every member contributing to the overall success.

What do my melees carry? Cure potions of the highest type available to them, remove curse potions, neutralize poison potions and potions of elemental protection (typically only acid, fire and electric as these are the most common). Haste, nope. Heroism, no. Stat boosters, not unless I'm a low level rogue who hasn't gotten a +4 INT item yet.

Lastly, when my min INT fighter goes to spend his one skill point it is never in UMD. So the idea that I would ever carry a scroll is one that won't ever be considered. Nor should there ever be a need.

This game is not a treasure hunt looking for a pocket full of clickies and elite gear so that characters can "win." It is Dungeons and Dragons. It is about beating the dungeon master's evil, twisted plans by our combined skills.

Anyone who thinks that a pile of potions, wands or scrolls makes that easier or faster is just fooling themself. What makes it easier and faster is one player willing to share their blue bar to help the group succeed.

Setting up dummy arguments about "what if the cleric dies" doesn't change that one little bit.

[Therigar]

I think there is a direct connection between being able to do difficult content, and coming prepared to take care of yourself.

FWIW, I agree with this ^^^^ statement.

OTOH, I don't think there is much connection between that statement and this one:


I think having people link what pots, wands, scrolls, etc. they are carrying would tell me a whole lot more about their....playstyle (for lack of a better word) than anything else they could link, like weapons... or what their HP/SP are.

[NaturalHazard]

I think having people link what pots, wands, scrolls, etc. they are carrying would tell me a whole lot more about their....playstyle (for lack of a better word) than anything else they could link, like weapons... or what their HP/SP are.

I think there is a direct connection between being able to do difficult content, and coming prepared to take care of yourself.

I am always happy to help others though...
But when things get tough, I'm kinda busy helping myself.

You do zero DPS when you are dead, and having the whole success or failure of a quest relying on receiving constant attention from a healer.....seems.... not very smart IMO.

would it be ok if I linked my curative cloak before we step into epic chrono?

[Bengalih]

I agree with everything you said up until:


Does this prevent a fighter or barbarian or rogue or other class from having some amount of self healing? No. But the normal dynamic is for that to be minimal and to be used only in extreme emergency.

I disagree. One should be prepared to heal oneself to some degree even outside of an emergency. After all your healer may not feel he needs to heal you as much as you would like. Not saying that is right or wrong - but it happens - deal with it.



The same thing is true for buffs. Yes, a character could carry every type of protection from elements potion -- but mass spells are faster and, in the long run, cheaper and longer lasting. Most stat spells are pointless as +4 items are easy to get and virtually every character has +6 or better for every critical stat by L20.

Poison and disease are typically handled by items. So what's left? I can suck down a haste potion every minute OR the wizard, sorcerer or bard can cast it once and I'm good for 5 minutes at a time.

The idea that every character who doesn't have innate spell casting can, should or would carry some of every type of useful buff and curative is simply unrealistic. And, it speaks to a selfishness on the part of the caster community who are unwilling to accept that DDO is, like its D&D roots, a group game in which success is not based on individual greatness but on every member contributing to the overall success.

Agree on masses - and generally they are handed out. You shouldn't expect that every party you run with will have a caster who A) has the curative you need slotted and B) has the mana to cast it on you. Shouldn't they carry a wand, you say? Maybe - but why shouldn't you just carry a pot? And although I feel that some caster with the ability should keep melees hasted in big fights - you shouldn't be expecting it - and you shouldn't be screaming at them to give it to you. Personally I myself would be peeved if they weren't handing it out though for some good reason.



Lastly, when my min INT fighter goes to spend his one skill point it is never in UMD. So the idea that I would ever carry a scroll is one that won't ever be considered. Nor should there ever be a need.

Granted. You can make a res clicky though. Should you be EXPECTED to have it? As a level 16 - no. As someone who has sat at lvl 20 for 6 months, or on their 2nd TR - yes.



This game is not a treasure hunt looking for a pocket full of clickies and elite gear so that characters can "win." It is Dungeons and Dragons. It is about beating the dungeon master's evil, twisted plans by our combined skills.

Unfortunately it's not D&D, its DDO and unfortunately it is somewhat about the gear.



Anyone who thinks that a pile of potions, wands or scrolls makes that easier or faster is just fooling themself. What makes it easier and faster is one player willing to share their blue bar to help the group succeed.


It's funny, because as I am replying here I am thinking to myself that the point I am arguing really tends more to high level players and should be loosened at lower levels. But this comment here made me rethink somewhat. At lower levels you are much more likely to have players who are new, or toons who are not geared up, or characters with a lack of spell slots or mana. I believe at these low levels it may be even more important to be prepared yourself. I think the level that I would defend a lot of these ideas would have to change as you move from different level and types of content (epics, Raids, etc, which need much more teamwork and generally have better defined roles).

Take a fresh 28 pt melee build and go into some level 2-3 quests at level on Hard or Elite. Now go do it chugging some pots of haste, heroism, barkskin, etc and watch how much easier and faster it is.



Setting up dummy arguments about "what if the cleric dies" doesn't change that one little bit.

Not some dummy argument - happens all the time. I can't tell you how often my ranger plays cleric to less equipped parties out in Amrath.

In summation - I don't disagree with your overall viewpoint about teamwork and sharing. But I don't feel the reality of the game meshes with that view. I also can't see how one can really argue AGAINST being as prepared as possible for all situations...just in case.

And again, to the OP - linking = bad - but the idea behind determining what a prepared character is = good.

[Galeria]

This is an extremely arrogant post. The only place good players check for boss beaters/heal scrolls/whatnot are
raids and even then just the harder ones. If you can go solo hard ToD feel free to not bother ever linking
anything since if you're on my server chances are I will know you anyhow (hell even if you're not there is a good
chance of it since you will probbly have posted in the achievements forum).


This is funny, because I think it's extremely arrogant to ask me to link my pots!

Nope, I'm not going to solo ToD or probably anything in Amrath. But I'm not going to bother running with someone who feels the need to inspect my inventory before deciding I am allowed to join his/her group.

There are so many things to do in this game, wasting time with people who try to put together "ideal" groups is kind of pointless.

The absolute worst Shrouds I have been in are the ones where people are "picky." Take the first 11 to hit the LFM and as long as you've got enough DPS and some heals, you are good to go.

To me, people who want you to link your stuff are the ones who can't handle anything but cookie cutter parties. I bet you still check your caster's DC's before you let them join your party too... and only let 2 in at the most...

[Bengalih]

The absolute worst Shrouds I have been in are the ones where people are "picky." Take the first 11 to hit the LFM and as long as you've got enough DPS and some heals, you are good to go.

Heh. I totally agree. Was on with my cleric the other day and when I attempted to join a Shroud group lead by another cleric with one open healer spot I was asked:

"Can you meet me at the Meridia entrance to prove that you have Radiant Servant II?"

I DO have Radiant Server II, but I thought it such an odd request I replied "Really??". I didn't hear anything after that and was not about to prove anything to heal a Shroud.

I mentioned this to a channel-mate and asked him if he wanted to do our own Shroud. We started a group and on his suggestion I put "First 10 to click on LFM".

We began before they finished forming (they had only one spot to fill when I applied). We finished in about 30 mins - totally smooth run where everyone knew their stuff. I messaged someone from the old group and found out they were still in Part II (must have failed on generals a few times). 45 Minutes after we completed I see the same LFM up from the same person with several of the same toons in group. (I have a feeling it was a failure and not a ddoor out at the end).

So yea, I pretty much believe that people wanting links to things generally don't have a clue. To defend the OP again though, I'm not sure how serious he was about actually linking things, but to the fact that if we were to examine what someone had in their inventory, just their weapon or armor doesn't say all there is to say. I think his statement about "a direct connection between being able to do difficult content, and coming prepared to take care of yourself" is the take away here.

[Qhualor]

This is funny, because I think it's extremely arrogant to ask me to link my pots!

Nope, I'm not going to solo ToD or probably anything in Amrath. But I'm not going to bother running with someone who feels the need to inspect my inventory before deciding I am allowed to join his/her group.

There are so many things to do in this game, wasting time with people who try to put together "ideal" groups is kind of pointless.

The absolute worst Shrouds I have been in are the ones where people are "picky." Take the first 11 to hit the LFM and as long as you've got enough DPS and some heals, you are good to go.

To me, people who want you to link your stuff are the ones who can't handle anything but cookie cutter parties. I bet you still check your caster's DC's before you let them join your party too... and only let 2 in at the most...

eh, i pug a lot and when i join groups that just take the first 5 or 11 people i see a lot of problems. sometimes im surprised, but i would say less surprised than most of the time. im also the kind of person that sees a shroud and just request to join without looking to see who is in the group.
if its caster heavy, part 1 is slooowww, part 2 is "wheres the dps? somebody grab the trog off me please. oh theres 5 casters at the crystal and the dps already have the other lieutenants", part 3 is just as fast as anything, part 4 can be quick, but funny to see the casters get picked off 1 by 1 and part 5 is the same as part 4.
if its dps heavy than part 1 is fast, part 2 is easier and fast, part 3 is just as fast as anything, part 4 is fast and part 5 is fast.
now, thats if the group actually knows what they are doing and heals are landing, etc, etc. to this day, the biggest problem is still part 2 and getting the timing right to break crystal.
also, if its just linking dr breakers, i see no harm in it. anything else for a melee to link is just stupid. if you dont have a proper dr breaker, than it takes longer to kill and you are not doing as much damage. i would expect everybody in my group to have a dr breaker if we were doing a hard tod or elite shroud. i know i dont want to pick up your slack because you didnt bring a dr breaker. i know healers dont want waste more manna keeping you up because now the fight is taking longer than it should.

[Rawel_San]

For 95% of the game this patently untrue. I have soloed most of the content on elite on a melee with just
heal scrolls and not even those used too much, and I'm a gimp player.

Moreover it's not about only healing yourself with pots or only healing yourself with scrolls/wands. It's about
contributing to your own well being by being well prepared having curse/prot/blindness/poison/resist pots,
having gh clickies, fire shield scrolls, jump clickies, invis clickies. All my melees have those cause it saves time and mana.
Some of them take time/effort to get and that's why we have casting classes to help out, but you should be trying.

Really a neg rep for this post?

[Rawel_San]

This is funny, because I think it's extremely arrogant to ask me to link my pots!

Nope, I'm not going to solo ToD or probably anything in Amrath. But I'm not going to bother running with someone who feels the need to inspect my inventory before deciding I am allowed to join his/her group.

There are so many things to do in this game, wasting time with people who try to put together "ideal" groups is kind of pointless.

The absolute worst Shrouds I have been in are the ones where people are "picky." Take the first 11 to hit the LFM and as long as you've got enough DPS and some heals, you are good to go.

To me, people who want you to link your stuff are the ones who can't handle anything but cookie cutter parties. I bet you still check your caster's DC's before you let them join your party too... and only let 2 in at the most...

The problem with that approach is it doesn't really work that well with real end game content. Try taking the first
11 that hit your lfm for Hard/elite ToD, epic Von6, or even epic DQ2 and tell me how that went.

[Diyon]

The problem with that approach is it doesn't really work that well with real end game content. Try taking the first
11 that hit your lfm for Hard/elite ToD, epic Von6, or even epic DQ2 and tell me how that went.

I understand the point there, but out of curiosity, how many times have you actually tried the take first 11 with those raids?

(Meaning you post that in the LFM, a lot of the time when you do that, the people that apply are typically willing to use atypical methods to make up for lacking things)

[Rawel_San]

I understand the point there, but out of curiosity, how many times have you actually tried the take first 11 with those raids?

(Meaning you post that in the LFM, a lot of the time when you do that, the people that apply are typically willing to use atypical methods to make up for lacking things)

Used to Pug a lot before I was in an end game guild. The usual result of atypical methods is 10 pots then fail.
For the hard content just pugging 3-4 spots can easily get you into trouble.

It's often easier to shortman in guild with people you know then it is getting a couple of extra people that can't/
won't listen and are under geared. ToD is a particularly good example of this since in part 3 if someone dies that
tacks another 30-40 secs to the beat down at least. I've had people unable to stay on his or sully's back. (I know
surprising). Moreover many people will go and raise whoever died even when it really is just gonna add another
25% to horoths health as the person goes and gets killed again.

[Maugrim101]

Expecting all players you come across to be prepared for a quest will only lead to dissapointment.

If it's a name you're familiar with and you know is a decent player, you can expect them to carry basic self sufficency tools. If it's a name you've never seen before, then it's a flip of a coin whether they can take care of themselves if they find themselves on thier own and being beat on (Or other similiar event).

I tend to find quests run smoother if you expect NOTHING from someone you've never run with before as opposed to expecting them to be geared to the gills and have every potion, scroll (With UMD to match) to take care of themselves, be able to run naked into a group of 10 Orthons and come out the other side without a scratch.

Unrealistic expectations of random PUGers are just as poor playwise IMO as the almost inevitable poor play that some will bring to the table.

This isn't meant as a poke towards PUgers in general, just that some will be newer players or more casual and if the "Better" player doesn't prepare for that while randomly grouping, they can expect to be annoyed quite a bit and it being their own fault.

[Diyon]

Used to Pug a lot before I was in an end game guild. The usual result of atypical methods is 10 pots then fail.
For the hard content just pugging 3-4 spots can easily get you into trouble.

It's often easier to shortman in guild with people you know then it is getting a couple of extra people that can't/
won't listen and are under geared. ToD is a particularly good example of this since in part 3 if someone dies that
tacks another 30-40 secs to the beat down at least. I've had people unable to stay on his or sully's back. (I know
surprising). Moreover many people will go and raise whoever died even when it really is just gonna add another
25% to horoths health as the person goes and gets killed again.

Just to clarify, PUGing is not the same as putting up an LFM that says "Taking the first 11 to apply." The first you still typically adjust the LFM saying, we need another healing type, we need a mage, etc, etc. The second you take anything even if its 11 *insert random class here* applying. The second one will also tend to scare off people that are not as well geared and less self sufficient and that aren't willing to do odd things. A lot of people are going to look at that and say, "There's no way we can do that without X" or "I can't manage without a X to buff/heal me in there" and stay away from the LFM.
EDIT: Unless of course they don't read the LFM, in which case you want to expel them from the group as soon as possible.

(yes the second still IS PUGing but its more specific than just any ordinary PUG)

[JasonJi72]

I think Talon was not suggesting that you should link pots, wands, scrolls, etc..., but that you would get a much greater insight as to what type of player you are getting than what weapon you can link.

A person who is somewhat self sufficient will not only be watching their own bars, but that of the group's, and keeping an eye on the tactical situation. This can lead to an action or even a warning that may prevent bad juju.

At high level with a lot of hp, cure potions are not enough to replenish your hp, but that does not mean you should not carry them or use them. CSW pots can provide precious seconds to give your companions more time to come to your aid. Many deaths occur just before a (now wasted) healing spell triggers simply because the deceased did not use any self healing.

Every character should prepare themselves (to the best of their ability) for the event that they have to carry stones to a shrine in hostile territory, because... well... it happens. Some would say that it would not / should not happen to a good group, but any good player has been there; done that.

See ya in game Talon :)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I feel like a lot of people misunderstood my intentions with this thread. :(

I didn't mean to suggest that anyone should require people to actually link anything. But there are a lot of LFMs that "do" require people to link stuff.

Or party leaders who ask if a char has this or that...etc.

And then there is booting people for HP (or SP).

... I just think that things like boss beaters, HP, build feats... etc. tell me very little about the ability of a player.

But I have always been happy with any player who comes prepared to take care of himself in a quest. (some are jerks but almost all are competant)

The new guy on his first toon may not have had time to grind anything in the game, but if he has gone out and bought a stack of pots, he probably knows enough to be worth having along.

I will always take anyone with me out of principle. But I do like to do challenging content, and I do hate to fail... So I would prefer if the people that join me actually come prepared for a difficult run.

I think the types of players who bring pots/wands/scrolls, are the type that I want to group with.
I also think they are the type that Clerics want to group with too.

[Vint]

Expecting all players you come across to be prepared for a quest will only lead to dissapointment.

I think you hit the mark on a point I was trying to make earlier. As it has been stated by many people and I agree that I dont care what you bring to the dungeon. But if my LFM says "know it, be self sufficent" what does that mean? When a pugger joins this LFM I expect them to know it and be self sufficent.

I am trying to get a clear answer, besides "you can expect that", as to why we should not get angry when said pugger joins without, any type of healing, or buff pots and dies? I understand your playstyle may be to go into a dungeon without these, and you find it a thrill to eek thru without, but when pugger decides to join he clearly shows no reguard for what was asked.

This does not happen all the time, but it does happen frequently enough that the hardcore will go without taking puggers. There are definately great pugs out there, but I dont have the patience to deal with them.

P.S. I have tried to help puggers in the past by showing them the importance of con or other key aspects of the game. The most common response is "don't tell me how to play my toon". Even if I tell them about wiki, or the forums they become defensive. You can keep these types. Check my sig. My first few years before the f2p crowd came in, I was more then happy to each and show people things. The new crowd, (not just f2p) feel entitled to everything, so they can go get it themselves.

[Elaril]

It should be noted that people who can not be bothered to acquire at least a vanilla boss beater for the quest they are trying to beat probably the type of people who carry pots. Although I will say it always amazes me the people who will sit on 10 hp between encounters and not heal themselves at all.

[Elaril]

I am trying to get a clear answer, besides "you can expect that", as to why we should not get angry when said pugger joins without, any type of healing, or buff pots and dies?

Because it is not heart healty :D. The tranquility of zen is your friend.