Healers Revolting. Why?

[kjohnson1990]

I'm a lv 20 FVS with no problem healing epics/elite raids.... Why are healers revolting? Nothing seems to have changed in the healing game... to me at least.

What changed with U11 that caused healers to go bonkers?

[nibel]

Increased HP/Fortification on raid bosses = longer fights = more heals needed = more SP consumed = more pots used = Healers requiring blue pots donations before entering any raid group.

My PC fried right before U11 went live, so I dot know if things are that bad. But the doom posts looks like this to me.

[Uska]

With the new UI I don't want to play my healers ever again

[luvirini]

I'm a lv 20 FVS with no problem healing epics/elite raids.... Why are healers revolting? Nothing seems to have changed in the healing game... to me at least.

What changed with U11 that caused healers to go bonkers?

Bad pugs can nolonger be healed though things in places like EChrono without massive pot use due to higher boss HP.

If you run with guild groups or other competent people it works fine.

[Chai]

Revolting? LOL :p

Are they declining raid PUGs more than they already were or something?

[tekkentroop]

Some healers got problems with the new UI and raised boss difficulty. Some dont, but they play the game instead of complaining in the forums (to be honest, its hard to see HP bars against red background, like in ToD 1).

[zztophat]

They've always been revolting but now they are rebelling too!

[Afyndax]

The changes to the bosses really weren´t well thought out. They did nothing but add hps and defenses.. which sounds like a way to buff bosses... but the fact is, all it does is slows the fight down which hurts nobody but healers. The added difficulty does nothing to make the fight harder for the dps, all it does is makes the fight harder on the SP of healers.

Healers are always the least represented in every MMORPG.. there should never be a change to the game that makes things harder on them without proportionate difficulty increases to DPS.

[sheepface]

It's only an issue for bad healers.

[Candela90]

I dont care about difficulty. Im glad its increased.

But... A lot of people dont play a healer themsleves - why dont they?
If u join their party and do your job good, but do anything besides healing - theyll ask devs to nerf u, cause ure overpowered.
If u dont join, its "healers revolting".

For me its nerf fault. I dont like they nerfed mine wings. I dont like they nerfed earlier clerics bursts. I dont like, that people sday divines are OP, but dont play them themeselves. And i dont like new UI....

I just go on guild epics mostly.

Oh. and if a party dps sucks, and they loose more life, than theyre hitting boss... if u leave group, u land of black list. if u stay but dsont use mnemonics. u land on black list. if u stay and use your mnemonic... ull never see them again, cause noone will thank u and no one will give u any. At least on most pugs. Not really good businees.,
Cause even fantastic healer wont help then.

And BTw melees can buy not so expensive Silver Flame pots. Why for favor to some place cant u buy in the same price mana pots? Its kinda not fair ;p

Edit: Yeah.... revolting is a bad word.

[madmaxhunter]

I prefer the term homely or unattractive. I blame the limited options during character creation. Oh, and yeah it's all that was stated above. A guildie of mine was the bomb at healing. He really enjoyed it. Now I can hear the stress in his voice during quests/raids.

[kitsune_ko]

My Lv 20 Unfavored Soul is on holidays currently as well.

The new UI is harder to work with for healers; players names are no longer attached to the blue dots on the map; and yes bosses got a HP and fortification boost making end fights a longer grind. (Note to Turbine: longer does not automatically equal better).

And yes the healer-types get the shaft in these newer, longer fights as well, by requiring more resources from them (MM pots) to continue healing the party/raid to completion.

More work, a healer-unfriendly UI, needing to use more resources, and all for same reward makes endgame content very unattractive to healers at the moment I feel.

[voodoogroves]

First thing I did on one of my FVS when the update hit was run VoD Hard. It was nice to learn the changes ... but that was her 20th. That FVS has 2 more Shrouds and she TRs, so she's not a go-to-character when I logon on.

I did TR another of my FVS after the update, so leveling him up in a different class on the bravery streak (which is AWESOME).



What IS discouraging is jumping into a PUG run (like, VoD Hard) on a healer and someone immediately saying "Got enough pots?" That's a bad scene right there. On the one hand, I've got loads of pots and scrolls. On the other, if you ask me that right off the bat that tells me the group wont' be able to manage aggro, have effective tanks, etc. and makes me want to jet away.

[DakFrost]

Revolting?!?!

I think for the most part Clerics, and a few FvS, are delightful. What would all the melee and fleshie casters of the world do without the pleasent company of our dutiful healers following along to babysit them through all the dangers of Stormreach? In fact, I would go so far as to say that by and large, healers are the least revolting people in DDO.

Cheers

[Jeromio]

It's only an issue for bad healers.

Not true. You've got some quests where it was expected, before U-11, that even good healers had to quaff some pots, e.g. eADQ2. When such boss fights takes e.g. three times longer, you'll also triple the pot consumption.

[zeonardo]

Play a CLR instead of a FVS...

You will notice the diference.
Now it's FVS (with pots!) or nothing.

And you will say: they have less mana but have the aura...
And I will say: ok! Keep close to the melees beating the boss with your aura. ¬¬
And you will say: My cleric has over NINE THOUSAND SP...
And I will say: Mine's not.

Almost all my builds are healers. I used to like it.
I won't run my healers. Period.

And my revenge will be TR my healers to BATTLE CLERICS!! Take that!! :D

[PNellesen]

And my revenge will be TR my healers to BATTLE CLERICS!! Take that!! :D

The term "Battle Cleric" is like the term "Battle Fighter". Redundant. Once you get Radiant Servant, your SP is more useful for things like Blade Barrier, Implosion, Destruction, Cometfall, Greater Command, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Divine Punishment, etc., etc. Toss a heal/cure (or Harm for the squishy PMs) now and then to stop the whining, and continue on your way...

[Candela90]

Play a CLR instead of a FVS...

You will notice the diference.
Now it's FVS (with pots!) or nothing.

And you will say: they have less mana but have the aura...
And I will say: ok! Keep close to the melees beating the boss with your aura. ¬¬
And you will say: My cleric has over NINE THOUSAND SP...
And I will say: Mine's not.

Almost all my builds are healers. I used to like it.
I won't run my healers. Period.

And my revenge will be TR my healers to BATTLE CLERICS!! Take that!! :D

Dont tell it cause they will nerf FvSes even more. I still hate turbine for that.

[HAL]

It's only an issue for bad healers.

If the best you can do is ad hominum attacks, maybe you should say nothing at all.

[HAL]

I'm a lv 20 FVS with no problem healing epics/elite raids.... Why are healers revolting? Nothing seems to have changed in the healing game... to me at least.

What changed with U11 that caused healers to go bonkers?

You're healing Epic / Elite PUG raids?

[kjohnson1990]

Healers just need to learn to contribute more than what they are doing. Sitting around tossing heals.

A divine punishment 3 stacks will put well over 4k damage over its duration.... Yes, it consumes more mana, but in the long run you will be more useful.

And what about all those elven healers that could be pewpewing with arrows of death while they are sitting there watching health bars? There are far more things for healers to do than just sit there.... Grab a club and start swinging. Time to contribute to DPS if thats all its about now is a race against time.

[kjohnson1990]

You're healing Epic / Elite PUG raids?

Elite raids yes, have yet to attempt an epic raid. But i've been healing epic pugs every day... no change in difficulty for me...

[Postumus]

Revolting? LOL :p



"You bet, they stink on ice!"

[JOTMON]

I'm a lv 20 FVS with no problem healing epics/elite raids.... Why are healers revolting? Nothing seems to have changed in the healing game... to me at least.

What changed with U11 that caused healers to go bonkers?

Are you joining random LFM parties for epic runs or are you running with a static group.

I am hard pressed to join a group on my healers unless it is a channel or guild group.

Static groups/guild/channels are still running, the hit has been to the pug groups which more healers are refusing to run.

In the past a Pug group with 6 strong players would finish with a potential pot or two usage on a healer. Low risk of failrue besides, a fail would be a quick rinse and repeat. No big deal. Have some fun helping out some new people.

Not so much anymore, the failure rates have increased due to toughened end bosses with more Fort and higher HP dealing more damage, so longer drawn out fights with more resources used, higher risk of failure.

Pots are becoming more precious, why waste them helping out a pug run when they are likely now needed for completing with a reliable group.

Drop rates are terrible, so competing with unkown people for items that they would keep for possible alts instead of putting up for roll to people they may never run with again.

Helping out a guildie or channel player essentially helps yourself for the next time they run with you they are a little better each time and chances of getting what I want increase.

[DeltaBravo]

IMO it still have only little to do with the uses of pots.. I can still heal any RAID on ANY difficulty BUT it is simply no longer fun to heal em. Some of em will now require more pots wich for me is no issue if iam haveing fun.
But when iam just standing there and pressing mass heal each 5-10 sec for 15 mins for a raid boss wich i have done 100+ times where i also used to be able to do lots of other stuff without haveing to use any pots.
Its now very fun just to stand still and just heal. Not many wants to play a healbot.

Simply the raids for healers are just to borring to heal..:(

you can still do all the raids you did before at any difficulty. Just requires diffrent setup. like getting 3 healers for groups that before only needed 2.. and getting 3 healers when some had problems before getting two, and with the changes.. Is not going to help the things..:confused:

[kjohnson1990]

I only run with pugs. NEver been with a static group as im only like 4-5 weeks new to the server. I'm not even in a guild because they are so.... "Iffy" on inviting new members. But yeah, been doing a whole load of epic quests and elite raids. Nothing has been changed as far as i can see. I mean, I see a health bar go down, I heal. No difference in play style. And i never consume pots. I sell them on the AH as soon as i get them.

I'm just confused. MAybe its my healscroll spamming that saves me mana, but I never have troubles. I mean, i dont want to sound like im bragging and that im the only one without this issue, but I have not noticed the increase in difficulty.

I've been wondering why in the past 2 weeks every time i join an epic quest or elite raid they are like "YES! a healer".... I mean, they way they sound you'd think we were extinct.

[Vistram]

With the new UI I don't want to play my healers ever again

This. I TR'd my cleric due to this.

[kjohnson1990]

Clerics should have an easier time than most, with that thier aura and thier burst. Any decent cleric should see how many damage thier team is taking ,and whether or not the aura will heal enough of it so that he doesnt have to cast a heal on that person.

Take this, A person is at 200/600 hp. Your aura is healing 32 hp every 2 seconds. He takes no damage for 8 seconds, thats 128 healing (w/o healing amp/ crits) and he's/she's now at half health.... if this trend continues for another 8 seconds he didnt need that 60 mana heal you just casted that could have been used on the wizard with 1/4 of his health. so NOW you have to spend 120 mana to heal them both

I think the best thing for healers to do is to just pay attention to whats going on around them. If i see that the half hp rogue has taken no damage i nthe past 10 seconds during the fight, i think i can safely assume he's not going to gain aggro and take damage, and if he does take a little damage, heal scroll him and continue watching whoever has aggro's health.

[brian14]

deleted

[sheepface]

Not true. You've got some quests where it was expected, before U-11, that even good healers had to quaff some pots, e.g. eADQ2. When such boss fights takes e.g. three times longer, you'll also triple the pot consumption.

Bad healers triple pot consumption.

Good healers adapt.

Personly I haven't had an issue.

[Neverwinterer]

Revolting? LOL :p

Are they declining raid PUGs more than they already were or something?

Indeed. I have stopped joining PUGs with my healer. I know some more players who wont join a PUG with their healers.
It is now mandatory to have a really good group to finish most epic quests and raids without drinking a single SP pot.
I still take my healer out, but only with guildies or people I know.
Also, I always carry a couple of SP pots in my other alts to give it to any healer who asks for them. I try to treat other players the way I would like to be treated.

I have seen a lot of posts of people complaining and whining, but seriously, we have a good reason to complain this time.

[brian14]

Bad healers triple pot consumption.

That could be interpreted in more ways than one...

[sheepface]

If the best you can do is ad hominum attacks, maybe you should say nothing at all.

Oh i'm not joining the rest of you crying that raids are now to hard and it sucks to be a healer?

Sorry.

[kjohnson1990]

Always were!



I never revolted. I love healing . Thats all i do in any MMORPG i play(ed)

Guidl wars :Monk , Elementalist healer, Dervish Healer, Mesmer healer.

DAoC: Shaman

WoW: Paladin
Shaman
Priest


and my FVS in DDO. I mean, I never once revolted/ or resisted my job. My job is to support the group. That can be taken multiple ways. To heal, to damage, to buff. I mean, its all based on perspective. Healers that are revolting and refusing to play because of increase of difficulty are just cowards. Imo.

[SickCat]

I agree...I automatically decline healers in my parties these days. Dang dirty healers.

[kjohnson1990]

Bad healers triple pot consumption.

Good healers adapt.

Personly I haven't had an issue.


Exactly, I'm with this guy.....

[Neverwinterer]

Bad healers triple pot consumption.

Good healers adapt.

I must politely disagree.
Even the best healer in the world can't heal a mediocre group in a (for example) EVON6 without chugging potions.
Example:
My cleric is a healbot. All enhancements, feats and items to cure the most expending the less. Let's say that I spam a Heal Mass (Quickened and Heal Amplified) every 5 seconds for a cost of 54 mana points each. My mana bar has 1940 spell points, that means I can use 36 heals. Three minutes of constant healing.
Without quicken, heal amp and spamming them every 10 seconds (supposedly another healer puts a heal in between these 10 seconds). Total 8 minutes of bad healing (bad because it is not heal amplified and can be interrupted).

It it now takes 15 minutes to kill Epic Velah, the only options I can see are:
1-Drink several potions.
2-Having more clerics in the party to take turns (but that means less DPS and more time to kill the boss)
3-Wipe
4-Not joining a PUG, only playing with friends who will pass any potion they have/loot if needed.

[NaturalHazard]

I must politely disagree.
Even the best healer in the world can't heal a mediocre group in a (for example) EVON6 without chugging potions.
Example:
My cleric is a healbot. All enhancements, feats and items to cure the most expending the less. Let's say that I spam a Heal Mass (Quickened and Heal Amplified) every 5 seconds for a cost of 54 mana points each. My mana bar has 1940 spell points, that means I can use 36 heals. Three minutes of constant healing.
Without quicken, heal amp and spamming them every 10 seconds (supposedly another healer puts a heal in between these 10 seconds). Total 8 minutes of bad healing (bad because it is not heal amplified and can be interrupted).

It it now takes 15 minutes to kill Epic Velah, the only options I can see are:
1-Drink several potions.
2-Having more clerics in the party to take turns (but that means less DPS and more time to kill the boss)
3-Wipe
4-Not joining a PUG, only playing with friends who will pass any potion they have/loot if needed.

maybe more clerics favoured souls could DOT her from a safer distance and therefore up dps? Especially now she has increased fort?

By the way what is this heal bot thing? Ive never heard of that build.

[articwarrior]

Here's the reason I don't run my cleric anymore:

1) New UI Bar
Now, I know most of you have been saying the new UI bar looks terrible, and while it is, my issue is the fact that if I pug a raid, I should not have more hp than you. I am a non-TR elven cleric and you're telling me that the tank has less hp than me? I'm not going to do that.

2) Raids Being Buffed
While I have no problem with a challenge, these new raid bosses are much more difficult than they should be. No longer are PUG groups used for raids for those who wish to complete with ease. Before the update my highscore for pot usage in ToD was 0 and only half my sp bar used (while I did use a lot of scrolls). Now, after the update, my pot usage for ToD has increased six-fold, making me use 3 sp pots just to heal the simple and standard pug ToD.

You may be thinking, don't you do anything to help the party other than heal?

Actually I do, I have maximize and empower for my Divine Punishment and while it does contribute, it does not help to make it actually worthwhile. I used to be an AA but since I never did a decent amount of dps without manyshot (with it I did around 2000 dmg total), I dropped it.

These are the reasons on simply why I will not do this, with the raids being buffed with hp, the devs are not increasing difficulty, they just increase time length and sp potion usage.

[sheepface]

I must politely disagree.
Even the best healer in the world can't heal a mediocre group in a (for example) EVON6 without chugging potions.
Example:
My cleric is a healbot. All enhancements, feats and items to cure the most expending the less. Let's say that I spam a Heal Mass (Quickened and Heal Amplified) every 5 seconds for a cost of 54 mana points each. My mana bar has 1940 spell points, that means I can use 36 heals. Three minutes of constant healing.
Without quicken, heal amp and spamming them every 10 seconds (supposedly another healer puts a heal in between these 10 seconds). Total 8 minutes of bad healing (bad because it is not heal amplified and can be interrupted).

It it now takes 15 minutes to kill Epic Velah, the only options I can see are:
1-Drink several potions.
2-Having more clerics in the party to take turns (but that means less DPS and more time to kill the boss)
3-Wipe
4-Not joining a PUG, only playing with friends who will pass any potion they have/loot if needed.

Spamming mass heal and having multiple healers healing over each other is the WORST tactic for Dragon now. You used to be able to get away with it, but not anymore.

If you have 2 healers with around your amount of sp, who throw out a mass heal just after every 3 of her attacks there should be no need to use pots and is solohealable.

[NaturalHazard]

I'm a lv 20 FVS with no problem healing epics/elite raids.... Why are healers revolting? Nothing seems to have changed in the healing game... to me at least.

What changed with U11 that caused healers to go bonkers?

Maybe if more people called them Divine Spell Casters instead of just jhealers they wouldnt be so revolting?

[kjohnson1990]

why don't you heal an epic raid if you think you can't get a healer to join? :)

I'm a healer anyways. I'd join if they accepted me. And i'd try to heal. IF we failed, we failed. But at least we failed as a team instead of trying to pin it on HEALERS or DPS. Your a team, a unit. You go in together you leave together whether you win or lose.

[kjohnson1990]

Ok troll

Wont go there. Yes, with my 150 some odd posts in 2 years.

What else are these people doing if not whining?

I only post to topics that pertain to me. If i created a topic. Ill respond to it. To my knowledge, i have rarely posted on another's post.

So dont call me a troll, when I'm not.

I'm a healer. I was just wondering why people get excited when i join thier epic/elite pugs. and why they are revolting. Therefore, this post pertains to me. And i created it.

[noinfo]

I'm a lv 20 FVS with no problem healing epics/elite raids.... Why are healers revolting? Nothing seems to have changed in the healing game... to me at least.

What changed with U11 that caused healers to go bonkers?

Because they dumpstat charisma? :D

[kjohnson1990]

Because they dumpstat charisma? :D

I lol'd.

[Tirisha]

I must politely disagree.
Even the best healer in the world can't heal a mediocre group in a (for example) EVON6 without chugging potions.
Example:
My cleric is a healbot. All enhancements, feats and items to cure the most expending the less. Let's say that I spam a Heal Mass (Quickened and Heal Amplified) every 5 seconds for a cost of 54 mana points each. My mana bar has 1940 spell points, that means I can use 36 heals. Three minutes of constant healing.
Without quicken, heal amp and spamming them every 10 seconds (supposedly another healer puts a heal in between these 10 seconds). Total 8 minutes of bad healing (bad because it is not heal amplified and can be interrupted).

It it now takes 15 minutes to kill Epic Velah, the only options I can see are:
1-Drink several potions.
2-Having more clerics in the party to take turns (but that means less DPS and more time to kill the boss)
3-Wipe
4-Not joining a PUG, only playing with friends who will pass any potion they have/loot if needed.

I think stating absolution ideas like this: *now you have to drink pots in average pugs* is not productive. What we need to do to adjust is take a step back and look at how we approach the quest and how we heal it. Maybe we can learn to conserve our sp better. Maybe we can learn to actually let the other healer in the group heal till he/she's tapped/low on SP. Maybe we just need better gear to tackle the tough raids with an average pug group.

When I read these posts I see a lot of frustration from healers and I get it. The Devs made a bunch of changes that effected the difficulty of the quest but the real problem is that your average run of the mill pug guy isn't gonna take up the slack, it's probably gonna be shouldered all on the healers cause it's easy to be lazy while piking, err I mean DPSing and that's what pikers.... err DPSers are used to. How we can overcome this is again take a step back, look at the way we attack the quest and see if we can handle it a little better; you can also ask the pikers to take a step back. I personally will give them tips on how to avoid damage. (note people who don't play a healer often don't necessarily understand how their gameplay effects the healers).

One thing I think more players should do is PM another healer, start a convo about how they heal. Maybe you can learn some tips and tricks from them; maybe they can pick up some tips and tricks from you and you'll both (potentially) be better healers for it. (my pm box is open:p)

[Tirisha]

Because they dumpstat charisma? :D

More accurately: they rolled a Cleric.... yeah I went there....:p

[voodoogroves]

Oh i'm not joining the rest of you crying that raids are now to hard and it sucks to be a healer?

Sorry.

I don't think that's what folks are doing.

I still run mine, but I'm far more likely to jump into a LFM that looks like, for instance, mostly CC. That decent cleric/FVS filling out the 2nd healer spot in a CC, STF, Unicorn, RG, EE, SPC, etc. run won't be drinking pots.

PUG runs - not mostly friends and channel stuff - PUG runs. Don't make it about the healer's adapting - because that's not the issue. Even if you've got the best healer in the world but the other 11 haven't changed how they do things, it's still painful.

There are plenty of folks I'm happy to jump on a FVS or cleric and heal for in any of the content. I am wary of some groups though, more so since U11 ... and as the collective population adjusts that will die down again.

[Seager52]

I am on the fence.

One one had I am a pretty good healer and I have been able to adjust and roll with the changes with little grief.

However, I do feel that the changes they made dont quite suit the intent. Adding HP and Fort only really effects the healers because they have to be smarter with their heals and in the case of sub-par group, pots.

Where I am going with this is not that the HP/Fort should go back, i really dont care, but if they want to raise difficulty then I think that they should add some different flavor to the fights. If the EPIC bosses threw the melees around, flew in the air and had to have their wings damaged enough to fall back down. Make some crazy new tricks that we have to adapt and learn to evade...that is a cool challenge increase. I

n the end healers will take the biggest hit when difficulty goes up, we heal and no matter the change we will have to heal longer.

So really the only reason Im against the Raid Buff is because it raises difficulty in a very mundane and generic way. Frankly it seems that they needed a boost and they went the easiest path possible.


Just my opinion

[Galeria]

I don't think healers are revolting at all. Maybe the half orc ones could use some better manners but I think revolting is too strong.

[Vint]

There are a couple other posts I saw about sp pots, and they make sense. At the end of a guild raid run, the leader will always ask if anyone drunk pots (guildies and puggers).

I am not sure if some people don't have common courtesty to offer pots to healers, or if they stick buy that argument, "I had to spend alot to make my Shroud weapons, so they can spend a little to buy pots".

Either way it is the attitude or entitlement of some pugs that keep me from joining them. If they don't respect my playtime or resources, I wont respect theirs.

[Arkadios]

I had a cleric19/1fighter before u11, 1.6k sp and a bauble it was enough to keep epic raids and elite raids/epic quests to the end. Most of the time because like all healers I drank a pot or two.

When I saw the changes in u11 I saw that although I was conserving sp (had to with the little I had) I needed a better toon with more sp. The cleric was the first toon I ever built but I realised it wasn't going to cut it anymore. I TR'd him into a FvS but have yet to cap and see what it's like. However I believe i'll be just fine, though I might have to make a shroud SP item before stepping into epic raids.

[bebeosita]

i personaly dont find myself healing again,is just stupid burn x number of pots each raid...
Im trying to gather some completions to tr my CLERIC in a BARBARIAN :D

My toon uber cleric almost full epic (got thousands of epics to use :D)

v
http://my.ddo.com/character/orien/bebeosita/

[Attropos]

It's a combination of a few things. I love my FVS, and have spent a while gearing him, but I haven't really been playing him since u11

1) Huge HP/Fort increases requires much more efficiency. Efficiency means mass heals which means 2 things: 1 less time attacking (mass heal is such a boring spell to cast), and 2) people with lower HP (such as rogues) end up dying between mass heals.
2) Nerf to wings: I wing around all the time. I feel the 5 wing max and the double sp cost now, especially combined with the new notice to sp efficiency.
3) With the new SP efficiency requirement, I feel quite obligated to take off my DPS gear and go into full healbot mode. And DP is not a good thing to cast, because although it shortens the fight, it ends up causing more SP than it saves (9 people attacking for 5 more seconds or so is more than 4k damage).

[Battery]

They've always been revolting but now they are rebelling too!

some are even repulsive but those are half orcs

[brian14]

I never revolted. I love healing . Thats all i do in any MMORPG i play(ed)

Sorry, it was a reference to movie "History of the World Part I":


Count De Monet: "Sir, the peasants are revolting!"

King Louis XVI: "Always were!"

I deleted my post when I realized large portion of people on this forum won't get the joke.

[MyHumps]

If the best you can do is ad hominum attacks, maybe you should say nothing at all.

rofl how is that an ad hominem attack? That's HILARIOUS. Taking it a bit personal are we?

[Teharahma]

I don't think that's what folks are doing.

I still run mine, but I'm far more likely to jump into a LFM that looks like, for instance, mostly CC. That decent cleric/FVS filling out the 2nd healer spot in a CC, STF, Unicorn, RG, EE, SPC, etc. run won't be drinking pots.

PUG runs - not mostly friends and channel stuff - PUG runs. Don't make it about the healer's adapting - because that's not the issue. Even if you've got the best healer in the world but the other 11 haven't changed how they do things, it's still painful.

There are plenty of folks I'm happy to jump on a FVS or cleric and heal for in any of the content. I am wary of some groups though, more so since U11 ... and as the collective population adjusts that will die down again.

Failed Unicorn approves :'D

[Therigar]

Why are healers revolting?

Not all healers are revolting, just the half-elves. They got hit with the ugly stick and there's no amount of Cure Critical or Heal to fix that.

If you've been seeing revolting clerics its because you're hanging out with the wrong crowd. Get out with the humans, halflings and half-orcs a bit more.

Or try warforged. Now, there's real beauty. :D

[Therigar]

Do you know why Crystal Cove kobolds are crying "Not in the face! Not in the face...."?

Yep, they saw a half-elf. ;)

[PNellesen]

Not all healers are revolting, just the half-elves. They got hit with the ugly stick and there's no amount of Cure Critical or Heal to fix that.

*sniff* do you have to rub it in our faces? Regardless of how fugly our faces are? :(

[DakFrost]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[PNellesen]

you Keep Using That Word. I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.

Inconceivable!

[Failedlegend]

I'm a lv 20 FVS with no problem healing epics/elite raids.... Why are healers revolting? Nothing seems to have changed in the healing game... to me at least.

What changed with U11 that caused healers to go bonkers?

Nothings changed thats just what healers do...they whine...and think the mere act of joining your party is done so by great sacrifice on their part and if they actually heal you it's to be considered a miracle of the highest measure

On my wiz I have no issue raid or otherwise with being put on heal duty in a group full of WF and I don't get all the crazy boosts actual healers get

[azrael4h]

I prefer the term homely or unattractive. I blame the limited options during character creation. Oh, and yeah it's all that was stated above. A guildie of mine was the bomb at healing. He really enjoyed it. Now I can hear the stress in his voice during quests/raids.

Agreed. Mine is 1000% worse though, my FvS is a Half-Elf. :D

Seriously, pug raiding has all but collapsed. The only thing I can find with certainty is a shroud run. Can't refuse to raid when there's no pug raiding being done.

[TDarkchylde]

I still play my Favored Souls and Clerics. They're just on strike from raid healing until the U11 boss changes get rethought.

Players claim they don't want Easy Mode. I don't either. What I'd like is for the Devs to stop using it as well.

Please make the changes tactical in nature instead of just "the group with the most SP pots wins."

[Imnotapotmachine]

All the "good or bad" healers who don't like this update 11, don't need to convince you why.
Each healer who decide to stop, to wait or to do other things is a loss for all people and the game.

[kjohnson1990]

You said epic and elite raids then in a later post admit that you never ran a epic raid.
I read the post and that's why if you had read mine you would have seen that because of your inconsistencies I have trouble believing you ever run a elite raid post U11.


They (everyone) don't. Only a tiny minority of people complain about epic quests.
Over 99% of the complains you see on this forum are for raids (epic and elite) only.


Well your initial post lead people to believe you've run epic raids before and post U11 and don't see any difference.
Since you're admitting having not run any epic raid post U11 I'd say yes maybe you didn't lie voluntarily but you've been misleading people anyway...


And exactly what was the point of your initial post apart from creating a polemic/suggesting that healers that complain it's harder are just whiners or bad players...
It's 10 times harder for a group to complete these raids.
Now that doesn't mean it's not completable even without using any pot but the bar is a lot higher and that explains the rarity of healers for pug raids.


I said i've done Epics/Elite raids. Did not say EPIC RAIDS. what i meant was Epic quests and elite raids. I've seen no difference.

[I_Bob]

I still play my Favored Souls and Clerics. They're just on strike from raid healing until the U11 boss changes get rethought.

Players claim they don't want Easy Mode. I don't either. What I'd like is for the Devs to stop using it as well.

Please make the changes tactical in nature instead of just "the group with the most SP pots wins."

/signed

[Thlargir]

I said i've done Epics/Elite raids. Did not say EPIC RAIDS. what i meant was Epic quests and elite raids. I've seen no difference.

The fact that there is a manifest difference pre-U11 and post-U11 (from others posts and release notes) and you have not noticed it, must put into question all the positions that you present in this thread.

There are two choices in describing the basis of your thoughts, neither is flattering.

[dragon2fire]

All the "good or bad" healers who don't like this update 11, don't need to convince you why.
Each healer who decide to stop, to wait or to do other things is a loss for all people and the game.

I am in this camp the stopped or at least waiting group. Fact is it is harder now healing epic raids. or more to the point has the potential to be more expensive. It is also less fun for me. I finally had a fvs that could kill things well and keep the party going and they nerffed my wings. Fine they fell it was op that is turbines business but it does make me want to play my fvs less and less. More to the point so many groups post u11 would get on me if i had the nerve to do any offense. How dare i not play there personal heal bot. Again fine but makes me want play my fvs less. I have been really enjoying my sorc recently though. :)

[joneb1999]

Some healers got problems with the new UI and raised boss difficulty. Some dont, but they play the game instead of complaining in the forums (to be honest, its hard to see HP bars against red background, like in ToD 1).

Everyone complains and the biggest hypocrites are those that complain about the complainers or just make ignorant comments to the effect.

[Paleus]

Now that doesn't mean it's not completable even without using any pot but the bar is a lot higher and that explains the rarity of healers for pug raids.

This is definitely part of it. Part of the problem of getting a healer into a group that can successfully complete a run is that you need to pass to checks. First, you have to have a good healer. Second, you have to be in a party with good people overall.

If you are a lousy melee, other people don't see your dps numbers and odds are there are 8 - 9 other people for whom your lower contribution gets averaged out among. If you are a lousy healer your lower contribution is visible to everyone and its averaged out between you and one other guy who's going to know its you and let everyone know. So bad healers aren't making the cut.

That leaves good healers. The problem then becomes with a raised bar and no way of knowing if the pug is good or bad unless you go in channel or by guild, there is less incentive to pug out a healer. And guess what, odds are pretty **** good that the good healers are in good channels and good guilds who don't need to really pug out raids. So you won't see them.

Then there is the cove and new content and artificers. So a lot of people are simply doing other things. Add that all up you see fewer lfms. I'd say if after the cove but before mabar pug raids don't significantly pick up then you've got a problem because people should have already played out the new content and leveled up their arti's so things should be returning to normal. If they haven't returned to normal, its because the poor healers are no longer making the cut and the good healers no longer see an incentive in pugging themselves out.

[LordMond63]

Truthfully, the UI change really doesn't bother me, as it is quite similar to other games I've played (DAoC comes to mind) and therefore it really isn't all the "new" to me. Now the minimap 'bug' where you do not see the names of players when you mouse over a dot IS a big deal and needs to be addressed straightaway.

Yes, the higher hitpoints and the fortification that U11 gave to raid bosses does make a difference, at least in the non-epic raids that I have healed or helped to heal (Shroud mostly). If the party has high dps, then the difference is slight- add maybe 30 seconds to rounds 4 and 5. But if the dps is marginal, it can make for a two- or even three-rounder and the use of pots. Before U11, even marginal dps groups almost never required the use of sp pots (barring the DC of a critical group member of course). Note that I am absolutely NOT complaining about this; I am merely observing the new reality post-U11.

[taurean430]

This is definitely part of it. Part of the problem of getting a healer into a group that can successfully complete a run is that you need to pass to checks. First, you have to have a good healer. Second, you have to be in a party with good people overall.

If you are a lousy melee, other people don't see your dps numbers and odds are there are 8 - 9 other people for whom your lower contribution gets averaged out among. If you are a lousy healer your lower contribution is visible to everyone and its averaged out between you and one other guy who's going to know its you and let everyone know. So bad healers aren't making the cut.

That leaves good healers. The problem then becomes with a raised bar and no way of knowing if the pug is good or bad unless you go in channel or by guild, there is less incentive to pug out a healer. And guess what, odds are pretty **** good that the good healers are in good channels and good guilds who don't need to really pug out raids. So you won't see them.

Then there is the cove and new content and artificers. So a lot of people are simply doing other things. Add that all up you see fewer lfms. I'd say if after the cove but before mabar pug raids don't significantly pick up then you've got a problem because people should have already played out the new content and leveled up their arti's so things should be returning to normal. If they haven't returned to normal, its because the poor healers are no longer making the cut and the good healers no longer see an incentive in pugging themselves out.

I'd have to agree here.

My personal observation has been that those who enter these threads with negativity are in the position to either run their raids in channel/friends/guild - or, they run raids on normal and avoid epic raids altogether. Nothing in the world wrong with that, but it lacks perspective. I've always been an avid pugger. When these changes went live, I continued pugging to gauge things myself. My experiences motivated me to either TR or delete a number of my divines. I now roll with two instead of eight. I'm very selective about what runs I am willing to join. And although my saved up pots are gone, I can now work on replenishing them.

There is a huge difference between doing a channel/friends/guildies run versus a random pug. Since I still enjoy pugging, I now do it on toons that are self sufficient to a large degree. For me, that solves the problem. Although it does slow down the effort on gearing my alts considerably...

[Terebinthia]

I'm not PUGging out my divine casters because I don't need to. I selectively pick what I do. I have all the TOD rings and so on I need on my cleric, 4 more Shrouds and her final gear set is completely finished. With the +3 tomes coming I'll pick up a wisdom tome for her, and then the only incentive for me is running Abbot for the Litany or TOD with friends for the miniscule chance at the right +4 wisdom tome. Otherwise I will play at scroll farming as a pet project and help friends out.

My FvS is a bit less geared, but really I want to run some Shrouds for the second accessory and I need one more epic shard to complete her gearset. Because she's a melee hybrid, the boosts from +3s are less useful, without going into the ins and outs of her stat spread. I'm more likely to raid with her because the healing word and extra spellpoints help quite a bit in my experience. She's also more fun to play in a group.

Right now PUGGing in general is slack anyway with Cove (and I know I am making more Cove epics than I had planned precisely because the end game scene looks poorer and where they have build utility it's worth picking them up - an evening's grind per item is better than months of grind elsewhere). Most of my guildies are TRing or working on the new raids, so it's generally quiet for endgame anyway.

But why I won't risk unknowns? I've been burned one time too many by glugging pots or burning hundreds of scrolls without thanks for the failPUG where you look up the toons afterwards to find out why we were so awful and been depressed by what I've seen. All update 11 does is make me less willing to even contemplate a risk like that. My resources are not infinite, I'm not prepared to spend TPs on pots to support other people's poor playstyles, and I would rather save my pots to help friends and people who I trust will appreciate it.

It's only underlined by some of the horrible melee based Coves I've been in, where melee who contribute absolutely nothing pike at the centre and scream for hjeals while you get on and clear the line. The last person who did this I slowed up and watched their DPS on a hobbie for a little in CR25 - it went miss miss miss miss miss miss graze miss miss etc. They brought no resources with them and were basically a waste of a party slot.

Right now I'm only prepared to heal what I think will be an enjoyable experience, and where people will help out if things go south. There's absolutely no incentive to risk anything else.

[NaturalHazard]

Wont go there. Yes, with my 150 some odd posts in 2 years.... i'm a troll. **** off.

What else are these people doing if not whining?

I only post to topics that pertain to me. If i created a topic. Ill respond to it. To my knowledge, i have rarely posted on another's post.

So dont call me a troll, when I'm not.

I'm a healer. I was just wondering why people get excited when i join thier epic/elite pugs. and why they are revolting. Therefore, this post pertains to me. And i created it.

A post, an thread about someone whining about people whining............. how original.:D

[kitsune_ko]

The buck always stops with the healers in end-game raids and epic content.

Like someone else said earlier; a good party/raid can carry a bad melee though, but its a rare group that can carry a bad healer though a raid or epic content.

When the healing stops; its almost a certainty that is when the raid/quest fails. And healers do usually get the flack for that failure from the rest of the group.

The increase in HP and fortification on bosses makes for a longer fight(s); which does not effect the melee/DPS much, just a longer beatdown grind for them, but it can now cost the healer more scrolls and MM pots to keep the party going. And in most runs, I find very few players after offer healers their SP pot pulls to replace any used.

That makes for a substantial disparity between the healers and DPS, where DPS have a slightly increased repair bill for worn items after, and healers have to possibly now replace a stack of scrolls and/or SP pots frequently.

I also think the new UI is bad for healing, the spacing means no more quick glances and the transparency means that against the wrong background you cannot quickly tell how much HP people have left, or worse, misjudge players HP and they start dying.

And the mini map not showing names is also seriously inconvienent for a healer when your playing DDOs version of "Where's Waldo" running from area to area in a raid trying to find the group with the player who's dying.

My healing-specced Lv 20 Unfavored Soul is on break from PUGs as well until some of the U11 "improvements" are modified/adjusted to be a bit more healer friendly.

My Unfavored Soul still has the same amount of SP as she did before U11; but now that endgame content requires more resources, compensating for an increased SP/healing demand in quests/raids has to be drawn from somewhere, and that solution unfortunately comes mainly in the form of quite pricy SP pots and scrolls.

Running a healer can be considerably more expensive now, I imagine that is quite a legitimate cause for concern and complaints.

[PNellesen]

...
Right now I'm only prepared to heal what I think will be an enjoyable experience, and where people will help out if things go south. There's absolutely no incentive to risk anything else.

Same here. I look long and hard at any pug LFM I might be interested in joining nowadays, ESPECIALLY raids like VoD, ToD, and HoX. Unless I know a majority of the players, I'll pass, and that's just on Normal runs. Since the Update, I won't even consider pugging Elite raids, period (and won't until there is some actual incentive to do so.) I have done a few House P and House K Epics since the update, and they don't appear to have changed, but the horror stories I've heard about EADQ/EVoN/etc. have kept me from joining those (not that I've seen many LFMs up for Epic Raids lately)

[Cirian]

Same here. I look long and hard at any pug LFM I might be interested in joining nowadays, ESPECIALLY raids like VoD, ToD, and HoX. Unless I know a majority of the players, I'll pass, and that's just on Normal runs. Since the Update, I won't even consider pugging Elite raids, period (and won't until there is some actual incentive to do so.) I have done a few House P and House K Epics since the update, and they don't appear to have changed, but the horror stories I've heard about EADQ/EVoN/etc. have kept me from joining those (not that I've seen many LFMs up for Epic Raids lately)

Very true, I look at party composition very closely before even considering PuG-ing with my cleric. If the group looks too squishy or has more then one or two non self healing types I will probably pass.

[Qhualor]

when it comes to pugging, its always a gamble. a group full of high hp toons can look enticing to a healer and could mean a successful quest. a group with a bunch of squishies probably wont. one thing ive learned, dont judge a book by its cover. ive been very surprised at how well and knowledgable a squishy group can be sometimes. but it can also be disastorous. ive seen it the other way around as well. it makes sense for healers to be picky, but its normal questing or the easy raids, i dont think anybody really needs to be too picky. higher level raids and epics, generally healers would want to be careful, but once again, you could be surprised.

example: i was on my ranger with named and green steel gear, a monk, a paladin, a wiz and a non healer bard. we waited for a long time for a healer to join our evon 1 group but decided to try it. nobody else had really anything as far as really uber gear and we managed better than the party leaders, the pally, expectations. he didnt sound very hopeful we could do it, but at least was willing to try. the pally took most of the damage, i was able to heal myself between fights and the bard only used heal scrolls. he said he wasnt very experienced as a healer, but did just fine. evon1 isnt by any means one of the harder epics, but the fact we could do it without an actual healer and surprise somebody in the group who had doubts proves a lot.

[minic78]

I know people are overreacting, but I'm still rolling a spellsinger because of this.

[NaturalHazard]

when it comes to pugging, its always a gamble. a group full of high hp toons can look enticing to a healer and could mean a successful quest. a group with a bunch of squishies probably wont. one thing ive learned, dont judge a book by its cover. ive been very surprised at how well and knowledgable a squishy group can be sometimes. but it can also be disastorous. ive seen it the other way around as well. it makes sense for healers to be picky, but its normal questing or the easy raids, i dont think anybody really needs to be too picky. higher level raids and epics, generally healers would want to be careful, but once again, you could be surprised.

example: i was on my ranger with named and green steel gear, a monk, a paladin, a wiz and a non healer bard. we waited for a long time for a healer to join our evon 1 group but decided to try it. nobody else had really anything as far as really uber gear and we managed better than the party leaders, the pally, expectations. he didnt sound very hopeful we could do it, but at least was willing to try. the pally took most of the damage, i was able to heal myself between fights and the bard only used heal scrolls. he said he wasnt very experienced as a healer, but did just fine. evon1 isnt by any means one of the harder epics, but the fact we could do it without an actual healer and surprise somebody in the group who had doubts proves a lot.

funny enough ive come accross people who just build exclusively for HP. Start with 20 con, all level ups into con. Pretty much all feats into toughness, skimping on dps, and tactical feats. All gear slots into boosting hp con, skimping on heal amp, threat, dps gear.

So all you end up with is a toon with huge hp that cant do much and is just a mana sponge, but look at me mom well ova 1000 some hp!! stroke my epeen.

Yeah with all the skimping on dps, str, level ups, gear, feats they still chug the +2 con yugo pot even if it means 5% less melee speed?

lol just lol.

MAX HP!!!

[Doxmaster]

I know people are overreacting, but I'm still rolling a spellsinger because of this.

Brother, think long and hard about this. People will be amazed/confused/a little angry that you are somehow producing healing spells from a bard when they are about to die...then forget the moment their Hp is no longer at 10%.

This will be repeated for 40 minutes until they die, remember you and rage "OMG, told you noob! Bards dont heal!", or you complete and then they will say "Well, that was great; we all tanked and self-healed pretty well (no one self-healed, they all had dr/1 and 20 AC). Lets grab a healer and hit the next thing."

Bard healing is a long, painful road filled with people forgetting you and/or ignoring you. Despite you being built and focused on doing the 1 thing every noob melee begs for. "Hjeal please!"

[HonricArgent]

It's true that old healing strategies will not be as effective as they used to be. The question is not "how can healers adapt their strategy to heal better without using pots". The question is, should they bother? If it's not fun to heal, healers aren't going to do it. You can say LTP all you want, but unless you're willing to drop group with your melee and start healing ever raid your guild runs, you cant actually make healers play the game.

It's a problem. There are certainly ways to adapt to the new raid changes but if healers dont want to adapt, if playing a raid fight in a more complex way isn't fun for them, that leaves everyone else in the group waiting for a divine that isnt going to show up. Until every class develops a way to self-heal while tanking and dishing out dps, that's a problem for everyone.

[Aashrym]

Brother, think long and hard about this. People will be amazed/confused/a little angry that you are somehow producing healing spells from a bard when they are about to die...then forget the moment their Hp is no longer at 10%.

This will be repeated for 40 minutes until they die, remember you and rage "OMG, told you noob! Bards dont heal!", or you complete and then they will say "Well, that was great; we all tanked and self-healed pretty well (no one self-healed, they all had dr/1 and 20 AC). Lets grab a healer and hit the next thing."

Bard healing is a long, painful road filled with people forgetting you and/or ignoring you. Despite you being built and focused on doing the 1 thing every noob melee begs for. "Hjeal please!"

That's part of what makes it fun. Once those folks who don't think it can be done realize what's going on the comments can be kind of funny. Bard CC has the same effect on a lot of players

The problem is if we do a decent job at either or both and the next bard they group with comes along who isn't built to do either they lose all faith again. ;)

[Doxmaster]

That's part of what makes it fun. Once those folks who don't think it can be done realize

No no, see that's what frustrates us healer bards. They DONT realize. Yes, you get a lot of friends who know and trust your skills before and above all others...but then, there are the random guys in PuGs.

They might see the same guy solo heal a shroud or VOD four times, be the only bard in your server that week and have a name that is non-generic...and each time they will be surprised and amazed he pulled it off, spouting Doom every twenty seconds and begging for a real Hjealar right up until you finish up and his/her brain shorts out and deletes everything up until then.

My friend list on my bard is composed of people who call on me when they need my skills. My squelch list is EXCLUSIVELY those people that met me 8 times and were astonished each and every one of those instances.

The most annoying thing in the world isn't people who think you cant do something. You can prove those guys wrong.

It's people who think you cant do something despite them watching you do it 3 days earlier, and 3 days before that, and 3 days...

I'm not the only person who has seen this. Do a forum search for bard healing and I'm sure the results will make you disappointed in the speed at which DDo players learn.

[Aashrym]

No no, see that's what frustrates us healer bards. They DONT realize. Yes, you get a lot of friends who know and trust your skills before and above all others...but then, there are the random guys in PuGs.

They might see the same guy solo heal a shroud or VOD four times, be the only bard in your server that week and have a name that is non-generic...and each time they will be surprised and amazed he pulled it off, spouting Doom every twenty seconds and begging for a real Hjealar right up until you finish up and his/her brain shorts out and deletes everything up until then.

My friend list on my bard is composed of people who call on me when they need my skills. My squelch list is EXCLUSIVELY those people that met me 8 times and were astonished each and every one of those instances.

The most annoying thing in the world isn't people who think you cant do something. You can prove those guys wrong.

It's people who think you cant do something despite them watching you do it 3 days earlier, and 3 days before that, and 3 days...

I'm not the only person who has seen this. Do a forum search for bard healing and I'm sure the results will make you disappointed in the speed at which DDo players learn.

I was bard healing on my original account back when DDO first came out and it was my first character again when I came back over 3 years ago. Bards and casters easily cover the vast majority of what I play and I don't believe in building a bard who cannot heal to some extent. So a general impression of how I see it.....

I've met a lot of the players you describe who don't seem to get it but for the most part I don't have issues needing to convince players again with whom I group. Either that or I just don't notice them because their misconceptions really don't affect my ability to heal.

I do tend to solo, group with ppl whom I know, and generally the PUG's are just to fill what ever slots we have left so I expect that would influence my experiences anyway. ;)

I'm not a fan of the forum search but for giggles I did do a seach for "bard can heal" and compared it to a search for "bards can't heal" and did not see anything with the forum community on a quick search that indicates much negativity. I did see plenty of bards can heal stuff and 'to a lesser extent bards' in comparison to clerics and favored souls with healing but not a lot to discredit bards as healers other than not all bards are built to heal.

It was just a quick glance so I could be missing some negativity somewhere. From what I see on the forums a lot of players do consider bards healers.

For the most part in game I don't see a lot of issues and when I do I don't get frustrated.

[NaturalHazard]

Brother, think long and hard about this. People will be amazed/confused/a little angry that you are somehow producing healing spells from a bard when they are about to die...then forget the moment their Hp is no longer at 10%.

This will be repeated for 40 minutes until they die, remember you and rage "OMG, told you noob! Bards dont heal!", or you complete and then they will say "Well, that was great; we all tanked and self-healed pretty well (no one self-healed, they all had dr/1 and 20 AC). Lets grab a healer and hit the next thing."

Bard healing is a long, painful road filled with people forgetting you and/or ignoring you. Despite you being built and focused on doing the 1 thing every noob melee begs for. "Hjeal please!"

oh yeah I know where you are comming from but in tod today while on my spell singer I got thanked for healing and the other bard did as well. For once people did not exclaim over the single divine caster a favoured soul solo healing TOD :p

[NaturalHazard]

That's part of what makes it fun. Once those folks who don't think it can be done realize what's going on the comments can be kind of funny. Bard CC has the same effect on a lot of players

The problem is if we do a decent job at either or both and the next bard they group with comes along who isn't built to do either they lose all faith again. ;)

Yeah its frustrating that they dont see how many viable different ways there are to build charactors for certain roles, just because they have a certain class icon doesnt always mean you can lump them into one catagory but for these types of people its just too hard a concept for them to grasp.

[DnD3]

Look at the bright side: Atleast your heals aren't being reduced by 80% on epics... well your divine punishment will probably be on the next update, it will drown on the tears of raging barbarians.

[Doxmaster]

I'm not a fan of the forum search but for giggles I did do a seach for "bard can heal" and compared it to a search for "bards can't heal" and did not see anything with the forum community on a quick search that indicates much negativity. I did see plenty of bards can heal stuff and 'to a lesser extent bards' in comparison to clerics and favored souls with healing but not a lot to discredit bards as healers other than not all bards are built to heal.

It was just a quick glance so I could be missing some negativity somewhere.

The negativity isnt that people dont think bards can heal. It's that people are repeatedly forced to prove as much, despite the forums accepting it:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=322120
----
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=266869

Forumites make up...maybe 20% of the games population, to be generous. Despite the forums accepting it, we have threads like this posted time and time again proving that the general game population does not.

[Drekisen]

Honestly EPIC, ELITE raids and quest were never meant to be run by just any 6-12 people.

I mean there has to be some challenge to the game, including organization and tactics instead of join your daily pug EPIC/Raids to get your tokens and chance at raid gear.

Besides you can always buy pots from the store if you just slapped a party together any which way and simply must have your tokens and raid gear :p :D

[NaturalHazard]

Besides you can always buy pots from the store

I prefer to grow my pot not buy it.

[Satinavian]

Honestly EPIC, ELITE raids and quest were never meant to be run by just any 6-12 people.You mean, if you don't have a network of longtime endgame raiders, you can't even try because no sane person puggs them ?

[mournbladereigns]

"You bet, they stink on ice!"

You sir, are a gentlemen and a scholar, +1 for your erudition and taste.

[Elaril]

Honestly EPIC, ELITE raids and quest were never meant to be run by just any 6-12 people.

I mean there has to be some challenge to the game, including organization and tactics instead of join your daily pug EPIC/Raids to get your tokens and chance at raid gear.

Besides you can always buy pots from the store if you just slapped a party together any which way and simply must have your tokens and raid gear :p :D

Except for the game's loot distribution mechanic. If you want something, you almost have to do daily completions as you literally have an infantecimal chance of getting the shard you want from a raid.

Older epics are old and should be easily grindable. Turbine has a good bit of its playerbase fooled into thinking its new changes make up for its longstanding neglect of its endgame. Too many updates went by with no new endgame releases. Its not that older raids were too easy, its that we had run them so many times they were boring. Now they are the same raids only more boring with a chance at using too many resources if you attempt to use the game's lfm mechanic to fill your group.

This is so silly its unbeleavable, and i cant believe how easily duped some people are. We should be, and should have been, challenged with new endgame content being released at a reasonable rate, not with the buffing of old content.

[Chaos000]

There are certainly ways to adapt to the new raid changes but if healers dont want to adapt, if playing a raid fight in a more complex way isn't fun for them, that leaves everyone else in the group waiting for a divine that isnt going to show up.

This is it on the nose.

Healing has become neither enjoyable or fun largely in part to the new changes. Those who find it more enjoyable can continue to do so and more power to them.

The people saying "learn to play" I assume can go ahead and fill the role of healer and/or adapt to the new raid changes along with tactics needed to succeed without having a divine in party.

[scottmike0]

Bad pugs can nolonger be healed though things in places like EChrono without massive pot use due to higher boss HP.

If you run with guild groups or other competent people it works fine.

depends how you play ( never go by your play style)
some people just dont know how to conserve sp alot
others on the other hand do

[Invalid_50]

They should open a new server, bring back the old rules before all the nerfs/boss buffs. level 10 cap, with the power 5 being rare as ever (and working on crits).

then slowly add content and levels that's already made keeping high powered magic items rarer.

Call it "classic" server.

and skip the shroud stuff entirely. green steel items saved the game by keeping power gamers glued to their pc screens and paying their subs long enough for the game to go ftp, but it destroyed game balance.

get rid of snow events where you can add icyburst on everything, or pirate events with free epics, and monsters with a gazillion hit points.(this is what the healers are p.o'd about anyway)

See you wont need that stuff, if you start over knowing where your final destination is. (kind of what you were supposed to do when this game first came out).

Add that server and see how popular it is, then we can see what folks really want.

[Drekisen]

Except for the game's loot distribution mechanic. If you want something, you almost have to do daily completions as you literally have an infantecimal chance of getting the shard you want from a raid.

Older epics are old and should be easily grindable. Turbine has a good bit of its playerbase fooled into thinking its new changes make up for its longstanding neglect of its endgame. Too many updates went by with no new endgame releases. Its not that older raids were too easy, its that we had run them so many times they were boring. Now they are the same raids only more boring with a chance at using too many resources if you attempt to use the game's lfm mechanic to fill your group.

This is so silly its unbeleavable, and i cant believe how easily duped some people are. We should be, and should have been, challenged with new endgame content being released at a reasonable rate, not with the buffing of old content.

Honestly the game is over for long time players anyways....they didn't keep up with content releases really period......the drought of Mod 8 to EU did a lot of damage to the players that were around before f2p.

I have been here for over 4 years.......honestly the only way I can play this game and not be hit with instant sleepiness and boredom is not to play at all for a few days or even weeks. A content release here and there is not gonna cut it, all the changes they made don't really cut it.......as it stands for me now abstinence is my only cure for DDO.

Lucky for Turbine they had LoTRO waiting for me which I just started last year and am still very much into.

The TR grind is an absolute joke, they need to come off it and drastically reduce the XP needed....let's face it, you are getting a tiny amount per TR per XP needed and your just playing the same old game over and over and over until it's just painful to even play.

Honestly I can't believe there are still so many "long time" players obsessed with the same game enough to play it more than 3-4 hours a week.

DDO's an awesome game, don't get me wrong, but for long timers there is simply no room for growth at all except making alts or doing ridiculously absurd TR grinds.

Sorry to break it to you COMPLETIONISTS........but you didn't win a thing except maybe some praise at a Turbine employees dinner table and respect from newbies that are enthralled by your level of "power".....LOL.

[azrael4h]

To put this in perspective, as of when I started typing this on Khyber there is a E-Chrono run stagnating. They have 10 players, two clerics, and want two more divine casters. Wait, as I was typing, one cleric jumped the sinking ship. There's an ETK waiting on a divine, two flagging groups for the house C raids waiting, and a Tempest Spine Hard that is waiting on two more to give them 3 divines. These are the ones I've seen sitting for the last half-hour that I've been logged on my sorc.

All this and the LFM panel is decimated compared to pre U11, where there was 2 Shroud groups forming at pretty much any given time, especially on a Saturday afternoon, and DQ was a dime a dozen.

[Drekisen]

To put this in perspective, as of when I started typing this on Khyber there is a E-Chrono run stagnating. They have 10 players, two clerics, and want two more divine casters. Wait, as I was typing, one cleric jumped the sinking ship. There's an ETK waiting on a divine, two flagging groups for the house C raids waiting, and a Tempest Spine Hard that is waiting on two more to give them 3 divines. These are the ones I've seen sitting for the last half-hour that I've been logged on my sorc.

All this and the LFM panel is decimated compared to pre U11, where there was 2 Shroud groups forming at pretty much any given time, especially on a Saturday afternoon, and DQ was a dime a dozen.

All the more motivation for me to just move on to a new MMO....DDO is becoming a novelty for me personally.

[issiana]

The term "Battle Cleric" is like the term "Battle Fighter". Redundant. Once you get Radiant Servant, your SP is more useful for things like Blade Barrier, Implosion, Destruction, Cometfall, Greater Command, Symbol of Death, Energy Drain, Divine Punishment, etc., etc. Toss a heal/cure (or Harm for the squishy PMs) now and then to stop the whining, and continue on your way...


Ah the sweet sultry ways of the true cleric, how i love thee so. Like you I stopped changing nappies a long while back. my kids are approaching teenagers and i have no desire to change nappies in a game either.

So I concur.. Take up thine Sword (or mace, heck even sceptre if you must!) and sally forth to give death to the heathens. Arise fellow clerics, to arms! we shall lead the revolt with courage, honor and the sharp point stick :)

let our battle cry be.. you want heals?... then keep up and stay in the aura :D

[morticianjohn]

Elite raids yes, have yet to attempt an epic raid. But i've been healing epic pugs every day... no change in difficulty for me...

If you're talking ToD I'm pretty sure you'd notice a difference. If you happened to do an elite TOD PUG before and after the update then you'll have completed 2 more elite ToD PuGs than I've seen in the past 5 months.

Are you sure you weren't just the 3rd healer for someone's guild run?

Edit to say : you won't notice a difference for epic quests as they merely increased the raid boss HP and fort (to my knowledge) and for things like reavers, abbot, elite DQ, and elite dragon you won't notice much difference in difficulty because the quests are lvl 12-17.

[issiana]

All the more motivation for me to just move on to a new MMO....DDO is becoming a novelty for me personally.

just read your prior post. and i gotta agree.

I'm over at lotro atm as well :) DDO is fun. i like it, i love my clerics (take that FvS :p). but the TR grind i undertook killed me on life 4, Since I'm, F2P now in DDO and own everything (apart from the latest releasees) i just walked away.
I'll drop in once every few weeks knock out a little xp then go back to lotro and ride around middle earth on my pony and have a blast.
Hobbit Minstral is so much fun, and healing even the worst of groups in lotro is still more fun/ less resource intensive than the best grouping in DDO imo.

[azrael4h]

All the more motivation for me to just move on to a new MMO....DDO is becoming a novelty for me personally.

Perhaps. I play mostly with a static group, and for the most part, none of us are particularly interested in a new mmo. A couple can't afford a sub, I won't have a sub, and another needs things like store pots otherwise he won't function well past the low level stuff. We all liked the more active combat and of course the Dungeons and Dragons ruleset, even if it's with a setting none of us were familiar with or particularly like.

I am the one of the group who pushed to run Argo favor up to 150 on everyone. I am the one with the greensteel items and the raid loot, as little as I have. So the changes have resulted, for me, in a severe reduction in what I do, as it is simply not available.

But, so be it. This is 100% Turbine's decision to kill pugging, and if I have to go elsewhere to play a game for enjoyment, then elsewhere I will go. Frayed Knights is out and soon to be taking up my time, since there's no raids to get into. Neverwinter Nights modules are still being made. DDO can join SWG for all I care.

[Drekisen]

just read your prior post. and i gotta agree.

I'm over at lotro atm as well :) DDO is fun. i like it, i love my clerics (take that FvS :p). but the TR grind i undertook killed me on life 4, Since I'm, F2P now in DDO and own everything (apart from the latest releasees) i just walked away.
I'll drop in once every few weeks knock out a little xp then go back to lotro and ride around middle earth on my pony and have a blast.
Hobbit Minstral is so much fun, and healing even the worst of groups in lotro is still more fun/ less resource intensive than the best grouping in DDO imo.

I'm at level 52 Elf LM atm there.

I'm a bit miffed atm tho as I have to grind skirmishes to get my new pet eagle, and I would really rather be delving into Moria.......but I WANT MY EAGLE! LoL.

Hobbits rule tho, I had a BURG up to level 22 but then they changed the crafting and I only made 3 alts so I could cover all the crafting vocations and be independent with that. Now the gating quests are gone and you could basically make a level one alt a supreme crafter LOL....which is kind of messed up actually.

[Drekisen]

Perhaps. I play mostly with a static group, and for the most part, none of us are particularly interested in a new mmo. A couple can't afford a sub, I won't have a sub, and another needs things like store pots otherwise he won't function well past the low level stuff. We all liked the more active combat and of course the Dungeons and Dragons ruleset, even if it's with a setting none of us were familiar with or particularly like.

I am the one of the group who pushed to run Argo favor up to 150 on everyone. I am the one with the greensteel items and the raid loot, as little as I have. So the changes have resulted, for me, in a severe reduction in what I do, as it is simply not available.

But, so be it. This is 100% Turbine's decision to kill pugging, and if I have to go elsewhere to play a game for enjoyment, then elsewhere I will go. Frayed Knights is out and soon to be taking up my time, since there's no raids to get into. Neverwinter Nights modules are still being made. DDO can join SWG for all I care.

I simply can't commit to playing with a set group of people mainly because of my schedule.

It does make it a bit easier to interact with other people.....lately tho I have been seeing no LFM's available for my TR currently at lvl 13 and I most of the times won't live up to the expectation that because I put up an LFM and have a star next to my name I have to puppeteer the whole party. If it wasn't such a common expectation I would put up LFM's all the time, but it is, you get stuck with a bunch of newbs and they are practically burning you at the stake if you don't hold there hand through the quest.

[goodspeed]

you could always put no handholding in the box. lol they get so ticked when I take off ahead and scream that they're dieing only for me to tell em to read the **** box. Oh well anyone as annoying as that prolly wouldn't want em in a harder party later on.


I think the reason healers have been ditching is mainly because raids expect them to be some solo healing god. The last 2 vision raids I ran theirs either 1 cleric or 1 favored. Ususually the raids always looking for a robot tank.... (anyone find the sadness in that statement? doesn't matter the class really just a robot... but that's another debate) but of course they say we'll have to use a fleshy and ask who can tank and it's the dude with 700 or more hp.

Keep in mind the 700+hp guy be he barbarian, fighter, pally, or some mix usually never spec for tanking so their hp is just droppn with each slash, even with seemingly every buff known to sorcery. And with 1 spot left in the raid the leader and prolly 3 or 4 others that actually have a working mic go, we should get another melee (ya theirs like 8 but ***) meanwhile the healer is declaring I cannot solo heal, and I aint droppn 5 to 10 majors, where the leader responds no no it should be all ok, he's got 756hp, to which the healer replies take something besides a healer, then i'll leave and you can find your "solo" healer.

I don't think it's a strike in itself. I think it's more that for some reason when creating these raids people seem to think that the healers got a stack of major mne pots right there. Which any worthwhile one would, but why blow something like 30 grand a pot, when all that's required is a second **** heal.

[issiana]

I'm at level 52 Elf LM atm there.

I'm a bit miffed atm tho as I have to grind skirmishes to get my new pet eagle, and I would really rather be delving into Moria.......but I WANT MY EAGLE! LoL.

Hobbits rule tho, I had a BURG up to level 22 but then they changed the crafting and I only made 3 alts so I could cover all the crafting vocations and be independent with that. Now the gating quests are gone and you could basically make a level one alt a supreme crafter LOL....which is kind of messed up actually.

lvl 48 hobbit mini myself.

actually i love the way the crafting quests are gone now. its how it should be imo. you should be able to choose to be either a crafter of a combatant not have to be both. it reminds me a lot of star wars galaxies. I loved being an architech back there making homes and stuff for others.
The hold back of course is materials. your lvl 1 supreme crafter will have trouble harvesting in a lvl 70 zone :D... but thats whats alts are for, heh.

[Airgeadlam]

I think people are going off the rails in this... Sure, they changed hard/elite raids and epics, fine... But there's a long way from that to heal any single pug up to 20. I will not be a healbot, but will heal all pugs i can find no problem.

[Drekisen]

lvl 48 hobbit mini myself.

actually i love the way the crafting quests are gone now. its how it should be imo. you should be able to choose to be either a crafter of a combatant not have to be both. it reminds me a lot of star wars galaxies. I loved being an architech back there making homes and stuff for others.
The hold back of course is materials. your lvl 1 supreme crafter will have trouble harvesting in a lvl 70 zone :D... but thats whats alts are for, heh.

Actually my main is a Tinker so I feed my armourer, weaponsmith from prospecting..plus of course jeweling for myself.

Tailoring is easy, you just kill beasts to get hides.

Woodworking is very easy to get logs for. My woodoworker is only level 24 and I was easily able to finish Master proficiency grinding Black Ash in the Misty Mountains.

The only one that is tough is getting stuff for my scholar, sure I get enough for each tier proficiency, but to finish the mastery I'd have to grind humanoids, dead, and farm and hope for dye material all day and night, so I am happy with just getting proficiency with that.

All my crafters have supreme unlocked, not up to 2nd tier crit range, but I can make supreme stuff in all vocations. My alt crafters are all under lvl 25 too :)

Heard the new Westfold is impossible tho for non playing alts...you actually have to level to get that tier.....but I have yet to get that far myself so I don't know for sure.

[issiana]

The only one that is tough is getting stuff for my scholar, sure I get enough for each tier proficiency, but to finish the mastery I'd have to grind humanoids, dead, and farm and hope for dye material all day and night, so I am happy with just getting proficiency with that.


actually scholars a lot easier than you think. Its the vocation of my mini. What i found was find a spot that has both humanoids AND 2-3 scholar nodes. often times theres a chest tied to the scholar node spawns to. Loot the chest, harvest the nodes, kill a few mobs 10 mins later the nodes have respawned. What i found was i got traits advanced from the killing. recipes for all my crafters, some easy silver and master in scholar.

the trick is finding a place with 2-3 nodes to make things go faster. 10mins isnt long to wait, especially if you tinker with the music system while you wait - which is one of the joys of lotro compared to here, there is other fluff things to do :)

[issiana]

I think people are going off the rails in this... Sure, they changed hard/elite raids and epics, fine... But there's a long way from that to heal any single pug up to 20. I will not be a healbot, but will heal all pugs i can find no problem.

Actually I think the real reson most are complaining is totally lost on everyone.

FUN.

its that simple.

the ppl who are complaining about things are simply stating that the recent changes to the UI and boss stats have killed the FUN for THEM. its not saying that you or the op dont have fun, but it seems a lot of ppl find it NOT FUN anymore.

now I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but when a change to a game makes one of the 4 core classes to D&D no longer FUN to play for a lot of ppl, then we have a serious problem. by core i mean Fighter, Magic user, Thief and Cleric. yes theres others, but lets face it - they are the 4 main core that everything else is an offshoot of.

A game is about FUN. when somethings not FUN people stop playing, sure every class is healing capable with some clues, but when changes lessen the number of people playing a core class then i feel those changes are out of whack.

However, only turbine can really say for sure just how many of a certain class there is and when they are used - provided there databases are set up to allow that sort of analysis. So in short, we can only go on what we see in the forums, and we all know how reliable that really is ;)

But is does seem at face value that the healer class in general is no longer FUN for MOST people.

[Satinavian]

I think people are going off the rails in this... Sure, they changed hard/elite raids and epics, fine... But there's a long way from that to heal any single pug up to 20. I will not be a healbot, but will heal all pugs i can find no problem.

Yes, regular quests haven't changed. They are not harder for healers than before and there is no expectation to chug pogs if things go ugly.

That's why many healers state, to no longer heal or pug heal raids and epics (or at least epic raids). I would assume, they are still totally fine healing regular quests.

Unfortunately, with all this self-sufficiency regular quests don't need a healer. Sure, they make it a lot easier and there are always some toons that are not selfsufficient enough, but at least half of the population is more than willing to start a regular quest with 5 random unknown people without healing, trusting in their own abilities to survive.

Raids and epics do need a healer. If healers begin to retreat from those, they can't be simply replaced by some wand-wielding ranger, some pots and a bit more patience. That's why it is a huge thing, even if it only affects epics/raids


On a different note, with all those people driven to guild/channel/friend-groups for the harder quests, they learn to neglect pugging altogether and we will also have an impact on the pugging-ability for easy unchanged regular quests.

[Maugrim101]

I must politely disagree.
Even the best healer in the world can't heal a mediocre group in a (for example) EVON6 without chugging potions.
Example:
My cleric is a healbot. All enhancements, feats and items to cure the most expending the less. Let's say that I spam a Heal Mass (Quickened and Heal Amplified) every 5 seconds for a cost of 54 mana points each. My mana bar has 1940 spell points, that means I can use 36 heals. Three minutes of constant healing.
Without quicken, heal amp and spamming them every 10 seconds (supposedly another healer puts a heal in between these 10 seconds). Total 8 minutes of bad healing (bad because it is not heal amplified and can be interrupted).

It it now takes 15 minutes to kill Epic Velah, the only options I can see are:
1-Drink several potions.
2-Having more clerics in the party to take turns (but that means less DPS and more time to kill the boss)
3-Wipe
4-Not joining a PUG, only playing with friends who will pass any potion they have/loot if needed.

Pretty much this.

I only heal PUG shrouds now. All other content I stay within guild/people I know, it's just less hassle plain and simple. It's not really about good healers and bad healers (Any muppet can cycle mass heal), it's about the groups that healers decide to join (or not) and whether the groups DPS is enough to beatdown the big bad boss before the healer(s) blue bar expires.

If anything seperates the good healer from the bad it's knowing which groups can get things done before they run out of mana and which ones can't.

[Drekisen]

actually scholars a lot easier than you think. Its the vocation of my mini. What i found was find a spot that has both humanoids AND 2-3 scholar nodes. often times theres a chest tied to the scholar node spawns to. Loot the chest, harvest the nodes, kill a few mobs 10 mins later the nodes have respawned. What i found was i got traits advanced from the killing. recipes for all my crafters, some easy silver and master in scholar.

the trick is finding a place with 2-3 nodes to make things go faster. 10mins isnt long to wait, especially if you tinker with the music system while you wait - which is one of the joys of lotro compared to here, there is other fluff things to do :)

I'm talking about getting high level artifacts on a level 22 BURG....lol.......I don't think my burg is gonna be taking on humanoids that are around artisan, master, and supreme dropping nodes.......I have yet to see if there are any of them that are away from mobs, usually they are not just out in the open so I can't get close enough to farm them......plus they respawn very slowly....the artifact nodes that is.

And stealth simply won't work against Purple mobs.

[Tirisha]

They should open a new server, bring back the old rules before all the nerfs/boss buffs. level 10 cap, with the power 5 being rare as ever (and working on crits).

then slowly add content and levels that's already made keeping high powered magic items rarer.

Call it "classic" server.

and skip the shroud stuff entirely. green steel items saved the game by keeping power gamers glued to their pc screens and paying their subs long enough for the game to go ftp, but it destroyed game balance.

get rid of snow events where you can add icyburst on everything, or pirate events with free epics, and monsters with a gazillion hit points.(this is what the healers are p.o'd about anyway)

See you wont need that stuff, if you start over knowing where your final destination is. (kind of what you were supposed to do when this game first came out).

Add that server and see how popular it is, then we can see what folks really want.

I'll see you on that server when it opens:p