Jade Strike with DC 43 completely unsatisfying

[NXPlasmid]

So my 2TR monk Tspatula is a max wis/dx shintao monk, with ship buffs the Jade strike DC is 43. Given changes from U11 making HP the most important stat for melees in the game now, I am wondering if maxing wis primarily for jade strike is really worth it. I've been playing this guy for a couple years now and even before the U11 changes I have been extremely dissapointed with Jade strike which even on a normal shroud might land 2 or 3 times between parts 4 and 5 on Harry.

I guess my question to the monk community is two-fold, is it worth keeping and if so what else can I do to increase the DC, my buffed Wis is 34 with a +2 tome, I can get one more by using a +7 wis item (are there many?) and excpt wis +1, or +3 tome and either of the previous and of course Yugo pots, but other than that are there any other ways to increase that DC. Also, for those of you who are getting DC's higher than 43, are you noticing a significant increase in landing your Jade strikes... thx, T

[Vissarion]

My plan for my soon to be TRed Monk is to take Improved Sunder so I can get the stacking -15 fort save debuff and -10% fort. I figure that should make Jade Strike land more reliably, and as a bonus, the fort debuff will be a cumulative 35%.

[Shuleagh]

Isn't Jade Strike a will save? Improved Sunder is amazing for Touch of Despair on a Dark Monk but I thought all the Light specials were will saves so they don't benefit.

[barryman5000]

My plan for my soon to be TRed Monk is to take Improved Sunder so I can get the stacking -15 fort save debuff and -10% fort. I figure that should make Jade Strike land more reliably, and as a bonus, the fort debuff will be a cumulative 35%.

This is exactly what I was gonna say. I have a monk/rogue build that uses stunning fists fairly often and I was thinking of picking of improved sunder as well for the fortitude reduction.

The 10% fort reduction is just gravy. Try to up your base str (by lesser reincarnating/ tring) and pick up improved sunder. You can go dex/wis and hit bosses with improved sunder/jade strike continously. It'll be really good for the whole party too.

[Vissarion]

Isn't Jade Strike a will save? Improved Sunder is amazing for Touch of Despair on a Dark Monk but I thought all the Light specials were will saves so they don't benefit.

Ah, yes, you're right. I was mixing it up for Touch of Despair.

Oh well.

[Darkrok]

Isn't Jade Strike a will save? Improved Sunder is amazing for Touch of Despair on a Dark Monk but I thought all the Light specials were will saves so they don't benefit.

Jade Strike (http://ddowiki.com/page/Jade_Strike)

Assuming DDOWiki is correct then you're correct. It doesn't help for that purpose.

[Malky]

You can use Crushing Despair clickies tho, -5 will save unresistable debuff for 15s

Mask of Tragedy from the phiarlan carnival pack is one of those clickies (3 charges, or 5 when epic'ed)

[Vyrn]

+7 wis item (are there many?)

Only +7 Wis item Im aware of is the Epic Helm of the Mroranon.

[NXPlasmid]

You can use Crushing Despair clickies tho, -5 will save unresistable debuff for 15s

Mask of Tragedy from the phiarlan carnival pack is one of those clickies (3 charges, or 5 when epic'ed)

That's an interesting idea, I guess the question is will it land on raid bosses as a clicky? Maybe get caster in the group to do it.. thx! T

[TheDearLeader]

That's an interesting idea, I guess the question is will it land on raid bosses as a clicky? Maybe get caster in the group to do it.. thx! T

Raid Bosses are immune to the -5 Will Save debuff that accompanies Crushing Despair.

Now, the Clickie itself could theoretically land on them, assuming they roll a 1. However, Lailat and Suulomades are immune to the spell all together, due to the Spell Level being absorbed by their respective Mantles.

[Taimasan]

Raid Bosses are immune to the -5 Will Save debuff that accompanies Crushing Despair.

Now, the Clickie itself could theoretically land on them, assuming they roll a 1. However, Lailat and Suulomades are immune to the spell all together, due to the Spell Level being absorbed by their respective Mantles.

+1 old friend. Ack, "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TheDearLeader again.".

[Memek]

Improved Sunder. Awesome feat for Monks. That feat is a huge buff to the class.
Helps with your stuns, your Jade Strike on bosses, your Jade Prison on trash, your Dismissing Strike, heck you might even get your Quivering Palm to work sometimes.

[crimsonrazac]

Improved Sunder. Awesome feat for Monks. That feat is a huge buff to the class.
Helps with your stuns, your Jade Strike on bosses, your Jade Prison on trash, your Dismissing Strike, heck you might even get your Quivering Palm to work sometimes.

Actually my monks quivering palm works 80-90% of the time in most epics, the trick is knowing which mobs you can use it on. A big help is running wind stance so mobs have to make more than 1 save against your strikes. It might not work for most monks but I'm also running a unbuffed 45+ dc on my stunning fist, jadestrike, and cookie do.

Also Earth wind and fire does wonders against melee mobs and qp and triple earthstrike casters, that way even if they arent dead they can't cast at you.

[Scarecrow9]

ugh....
jade tomb, jade strike, shining star strike, kukan do..... all WILL saves. improve sunder does not help sadly.

[BDS]

Throw on some cursepewing on or get a caster to throw one up on the raid boss. One thing I do like about update 11 is it makes party members think about how they can work together to lower fort more, rather then everyone just wailing away with auto attack on. Though I would have liked to see the raid difficulty buffed in some more interesting ways other then massively buffing HP and increasing fort.

[sebastianosmith]

Throw on some cursepewing on or get a caster to throw one up on the raid boss.

Unfortunately, Cursespewing is DC 15. Improved Cursespewing is DC 20. Both are a Will save and significantly below the DC 43 specified by the OP. Nice thought but unlikely to enhance the outcome.

[TheDearLeader]

Unfortunately, Cursespewing is DC 15. Improved Cursespewing is DC 20. Both are a Will save and significantly below the DC 43 specified by the OP. Nice thought but unlikely to enhance the outcome.

Everybody rolls 1s...

Although Horned Devils (Suulomades) are immune to Curse or Curse-like effects.

I've seen the Lord of Blades cursed. Cursed + Crushing Despair on the LoB is like an extra 6 AC for the tank.

[sebastianosmith]

Everybody rolls 1s...

True. But wouldn't that mean a Jade Strike, the original gist of this thread, should have landed as well? Perhaps a curse would be useful but a successful JS would end such a debate quickly. ;)

[Calebro]

Also Earth wind and fire does wonders against melee mobs and qp and triple earthstrike casters, that way even if they arent dead they can't cast at you.

Completely off topic.
I've always found it HILARIOUS that the Devs made the Earth Wind and Fire finisher an (almost) irresistable dance (as long as you choose your targets wisely), and called it Shining Star (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwc0AW67CmA).
Am I the only one that got that joke? I sure hope not.

[TheDearLeader]

True. But wouldn't that mean a Jade Strike, the original gist of this thread, should have landed as well? Perhaps a curse would be useful but a successful JS would end such a debate quickly. ;)

I'm pretty sure the message behind it was use Cursespewing until enemy is Cursed, then Jade Strike when their saves are lowered. I wasn't the one who suggested Cursespewing specifically, but it's a thought.

[K_0tiC]

Even on a fail from the crushing despair the mob still gets the weaken will effect for -3 to there willsave so dc isnt important, when I cast masshold on my wizards I always drop either cd or 1sp hypno for the -3 weaken will effect.

18base 2tome 11item (7helm 3exceptional 1litany) 2ship 2 stance 2yugo 3monk wisdom=40 only other option is 5 level ups and 3/4tome and +2 store pot & 1human and yea epic helm of the moranon is the only wis 7 item in game.

[TheDearLeader]

Even on a fail from the crushing despair the mob still gets the weaken will effect for -3 to there willsave so dc isnt important, when I cast masshold on my wizards I always drop either cd or 1sp hypno for the -3 weaken will effect.

Unless they are Red/Purple named. And the OP specifically refers to Arraetrikos in Shroud.

[anto_capone]

Completely off topic.
I've always found it HILARIOUS that the Devs made the Earth Wind and Fire finisher an (almost) irresistable dance (as long as you choose your targets wisely), and called it Shining Star (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwc0AW67CmA).
Am I the only one that got that joke? I sure hope not.

haha nice catch :D

[Calebro]

haha nice catch :D

Every time I see and Ogre dancing, this song is playing in my head.
Every single time. :D

[Shade]

Jade strike isn't meant to be that great for raid bosses. Especially evil outsiders, who's highest save is Will. (Arraetrikos on normal has a 35 will save, higher on hard/elite)

It and tomb of jade are ideal for high HP/high fort trash monsters tho. Especially undead, and elementals, who don't have the best will saves and have 100% fort.

Especially epic elementals, which normally have 100% fort, you can drop down to 75%, and they also tend to have very low will save (it's there lowest save). Thats a huge boots to dps for yourself and all other melees in your group.

In epic devils assault you should be able to land it nearly 100% on all of the elementals.

EDA also happens to be a slightly superior quest to farm for large scales then shourd (since you mentioned arraetrikos). The droprates quite a bit higher. Plus the 2 tokens and a chance at the very valuable handwraps makes it quite lucrative to run, and light monks are ultra effective there.

Monks are an ultra powerful class, just have to use the right punches/specials in the right areas to be effective. Definete dont need to max wisdom.

Ideal monk stats are not too unlike other twf melee classes: Max str, good con, enough dex for twf.. Rest ya can fit into wis/cha. Only differences is you might consider dropping 1 str to sure up your wis stat 3 points.

[gamj]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think fighter past life passive feat (+1 DC tactical) works with a lot of Monk moves (stunning fist for sure, and maybe the light moves?)

[whomhead]

Jade strike isn't meant to be that great for raid bosses. Especially evil outsiders, who's highest save is Will. (Arraetrikos on normal has a 35 will save, higher on hard/elite)

It and tomb of jade are ideal for high HP/high fort trash monsters tho. Especially undead, and elementals, who don't have the best will saves and have 100% fort.

The problem with this line of reason is that on any thing that isn't a boss (purple or red name) that is vulnerable to Jade Strike (i.e. is a tainted creature), then you are better of using either Dismissing Strike for an instakill or Tomb of Jade for 150% damage before you use Jade Strike. So if Jade Strike isn't meant to be good for bosses, then what the heck is it meant to be good for, given that it is the only strike that actually works on bosses? This is especially true since all of these strikes have the exact same DC.


Especially epic elementals, which normally have 100% fort, you can drop down to 75%, and they also tend to have very low will save (it's there lowest save). Thats a huge boots to dps for yourself and all other melees in your group.

In epic devils assault you should be able to land it nearly 100% on all of the elementals.

While I completely agree that light monks are very powerful in EDA, the strike order on elementals should be Dismissing, Tomb, then Jade Strike only as a very last resort. In fact, you'd probably be better off just generating more ki for 15 seconds and waiting for Dismissing Strike to come off timer than bothering to use Jade Strike.

Sadly the devils in there are considered to be on their home plane, just like the Shroud, so Dismissing Strike wont work on them. :(

[BDS]

I'm pretty sure the message behind it was use Cursespewing until enemy is Cursed, then Jade Strike when their saves are lowered. I wasn't the one who suggested Cursespewing specifically, but it's a thought.


Yep exactly

[Lord_Thanatos]

The problem with this line of reason is that on any thing that isn't a boss (purple or red name) that is vulnerable to Jade Strike (i.e. is a tainted creature), then you are better of using either Dismissing Strike for an instakill or Tomb of Jade for 150% damage before you use Jade Strike. So if Jade Strike isn't meant to be good for bosses, then what the heck is it meant to be good for, given that it is the only strike that actually works on bosses? This is especially true since all of these strikes have the exact same DC.



Or completely besides the fact that Eladrin specific mentioned Jade Strike when talking about ways to reduce fort for epic raid bosses along with Touch of Despair.

So I imagine that the design intent IS for Jade Strike to be used on raid bosses.