Divide & Time = Money

[llyrnionfor]

1. The Divide (TM)
Sometime ago, I started a thread with an hypothesis: What if we had different servers for casual and hardcore players? One argument kept cropping out throughout that discussion - it would create a Divide (TM).

I've said it then, and I'll say it now: The Divide (TM) already exists. Nowhere is this more evident than in sentences such as "Elite/Epic/Etc isn't for everyone, and that's WAI", or "I've had to grind for MONTHS to get my Epic Stick of Kobold Transformigation, and no pocket-lined n00b should just be able to buy his from the store", or even "If Turbine is not going to increase the drop rates on Elite/Epic, they could at least lower it on Normal".

Obviously, the same thing applies the other way around, i.e., requests to turn Velah into a kobold shaman, because eVon is too hard (oh, and make sure Velah, The Kobold Shaman, can't jump on ledges we can't reach).

It's not just a Divide (TM). It's one demographic trying to dictate what game the other demographic should have.

2. Time = Money.
Some people have the Time to spend grinding eVon for months/years, in the search for the eeSOS (first "e" is for "elusive"). More power to them. Some people have the Money to go to the store and spend whatever TPs an nseaeSOS ("nsea" meaning "not-so-elusive-anymore") will cost. More power to them.

The fact is, they're both getting an item in exchange for a resource each considers disposable. Some pay with time, others pay with money. Both are scarce resources, and both have a different value to different people.

It's already standard behaviour in this game. Have time, but short on cash? Grind favor to buy packs, account items, unlock perks, whatever. Have cash, but short on time? We hope you enjoyed your visit to the DDO Store, sir. Yes, a store assistant will be delivering your items, sir. Please come again, sir.

And the point is...? I find item 1 much more shocking than item 2. In fact, it's this divide, and the inability of MMOs (not just DDO) to deal with it, that's started me thinking that maybe I should just go back to single player, when my VIP sub expires in 2012/02.

Actually, just in time for Kingdoms of Amalur.

[MrLarone]

huh?

sorry, do you want to devide the devided?

should DDO be uniting the devided are not?

who's selling raid loot in the store?

[Chilldude]

huh?

sorry, do you want to devide the devided?

should DDO be uniting the devided are not?

who's selling raid loot in the store?

He said that whether you choose to see it or not, the player base is divided, and the players on either side of the divide will never come together. Therefore, in the spirit of fairness, Turbine should not let one side dictate what they other side is able to achieve.

[Galeria]

I like the idea.

In PnP DnD, the game is set by the DM. Will he accept your high-fantasy items or will he tell you they aren't balanced and not let you have the accomplishments you "earned" in other games? Is the game merely a challenge to survive hack-n-slash or a whimsical tour through unusual territory? The game scales to the current setting.

By separating pay-to-win from hardcore gamers, you wouldn't have the imbalance of some people having to grind their items through non-stop hours of unemployed gametime vs the full time job and real lifers who have more money than time to play but still want to see endgame content.

If everyone can buy their gear and drop rates are high, everyone can be uber.

("I'll give them heroics. I'll give them the most spectacular heroics they've ever seen! And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll sell my inventions so everyone can be superheroes! Everyone can be super! And when everyone's super, [laughs maniacally] no-one will be."

-Syndrome)

The bottom line is that everyone wants to be a super hero. You play for the sense of accomplishment, achieving goals, having fun with friends.

People with unlimited time don't want others to be able to buy the things they worked for.

People with limited time don't want to have to choose between decent loot and endgame content or a divorce/firing.

Give each their own server. The super uber I've-played-this-game-from-beta types do need more challenge. The I-love-this-game-but-love-my-family types need realistic timeframes to achieve their goals.

The fact is that once you've "won" the game, there's not much to do but move on to a new challenge. Ramping up the challenges to keep bored players happy alienates new players- the lifeblood/funding base that keeps the game profitable.

The uber-grind server could be (like Lamannia) a testing ground for new changes, letting the experienced players really road test upcoming changes and content.

[grayham]

OP- some good points well put, though I'm still a little lost on the overall thrust of your argument.

Those issues have come to the fore recently, since they upgraded the (easily acquired) Antique Greataxe to make it a strong competitor for the (very difficullt to obtain) Esos.
Also +3 tomes. A highpoint for any player to uncover one of those, now purchasable in the store.

Yep. Still not sure what we're debating though.

[Chai]

In DDO we are all casuals.

Most other MMOs raid set up times are hours long, just to get the ~60 player group together, and kill all the trash to get to the boss. Then after you beat on it for 25 minutes and it dies, it drops 2 items, which the guild leader DKPs out to the highest bidder, then you go on a one week timer until the next time you can kill the same mob.

There are still players who have ~10 highest tier geared toons in those games.

Then theres DDO. Half hour raids, 3 day timers, and a buncha jaded gamers who call this a grind game, LOL. The "hard core" players here are slightly less casual than the "casuals" in DDO. I have 3 decent raid / epic toons, and a few more schlubs I can run old world raids with if needed. The "hard core" player has ~10 toons geared just like the 3 I have. The time they put in here in DDO **might** be enough to have one really good toon in WOW or EQ1. If they have alt-itis, prob not.

I was all for selling items that can be earned in game in the store. We were told a couple years ago that raid loot wont be sold for RL money though. Now it is. This decreases the value of time = money considerably. Technically no one needs to put **MOST** of the time they put into raids they already have put in anymore, because most of the loot that comes out of those raids are tomes, which will now be able to be bought.

[Chilldude]

Yep. Still not sure what we're debating though.

He said his point is that MMO's seem unable to deal with the divide between players and therefore he presumes he'll end up going back to single player RPG's when his subscription runs out.

I agree with his sentiment. MMO's seem to never want to lose a customer to lack of something to do, so they set up collosal grindfests to ensure no one could ever complete it. However, they underestimate the free time and resourcefulness of players and once it is achieved a rat race begins to keep up with the Jones'. Now, very few people actually play the game, instead they try to race through content so that they can get to the finish line.

As a game, fun is equally available to all who play it. As a race, it's obviously skewed in favor of those with tons of free time. It's difficult to have fun in a game where everyone is in a race and you don't have the free time to keep up.

MMO developers should realize that they lose more players to the grind than they would to people who run out of things to do. Those people will always find something more to do.

[Zaodon]

1. The Divide (TM)
Sometime ago, I started a thread with an hypothesis: What if we had different servers for casual and hardcore players? One argument kept cropping out throughout that discussion - it would create a Divide (TM).

I've said it then, and I'll say it now: The Divide (TM) already exists. Nowhere is this more evident than in sentences such as "Elite/Epic/Etc isn't for everyone, and that's WAI", or "I've had to grind for MONTHS to get my Epic Stick of Kobold Transformigation, and no pocket-lined n00b should just be able to buy his from the store", or even "If Turbine is not going to increase the drop rates on Elite/Epic, they could at least lower it on Normal".

Obviously, the same thing applies the other way around, i.e., requests to turn Velah into a kobold shaman, because eVon is too hard (oh, and make sure Velah, The Kobold Shaman, can't jump on ledges we can't reach).

It's not just a Divide (TM). It's one demographic trying to dictate what game the other demographic should have.

2. Time = Money.
Some people have the Time to spend grinding eVon for months/years, in the search for the eeSOS (first "e" is for "elusive"). More power to them. Some people have the Money to go to the store and spend whatever TPs an nseaeSOS ("nsea" meaning "not-so-elusive-anymore") will cost. More power to them.

The fact is, they're both getting an item in exchange for a resource each considers disposable. Some pay with time, others pay with money. Both are scarce resources, and both have a different value to different people.

It's already standard behaviour in this game. Have time, but short on cash? Grind favor to buy packs, account items, unlock perks, whatever. Have cash, but short on time? We hope you enjoyed your visit to the DDO Store, sir. Yes, a store assistant will be delivering your items, sir. Please come again, sir.

And the point is...? I find item 1 much more shocking than item 2. In fact, it's this divide, and the inability of MMOs (not just DDO) to deal with it, that's started me thinking that maybe I should just go back to single player, when my VIP sub expires in 2012/02.

Actually, just in time for Kingdoms of Amalur.

Well, its a pretty good post, I'll say that much.

But that doesn't mean I agree 100% with it. I do agree, for the most part, though. I would say, though, that the "Divide" isn't really between casual and hard-core players. Its between long-time/experienced/high level guilded players and newer/less experienced/low level guilded players.

To run epics, you don't need to be hard core. You just need to be experienced at DDO and in a high level guild, with access to ship buffs and lots of other high level, well geared, experienced players.

The evidence I present to you on this is as follows: take 11 such "uber" players, and 1 "new fresh level 20 with no gear who joined 3 months ago". Those 11 "pros" can easily drag that new guy through Amrath and Shroud and get him geared asap, and then teach him strats for epic quests. So long as he is a decent player, he will be "Transformed" from "noob" to "vet", even though his playtime could be just a few hours a week (aka "casual").

The "Divide" in DDO is that the highest level difficulties of the game presume you have the highest gear, highest guild ship buffs, maximum Favor rewards (Yugo pots for example), and a group of 11 others the same. It does not "forgive" a few (or more) players having sub-standard gear. It does not "forgive" players who do not have fairly decent twitch skills and reaction times. I am not saying this is either "right" or "wrong", I am saying that this is the fundamental difference I see in "the Divide" you mention.

I think what is generating complaints is that, clearly, part of "the Divide" is gear. Not all of it, but part of it. If you simply let people "buy" their way across "the Divide", then they will not have the "experience and play skills" required for epic quests, and will get people killed/cause wipes, and that frustrates those that consider themselves "elite".

[Qaliya]

These issues can never be resolved because they are inherent to the discrepancies among people.

You cannot make high-end content that is achievable for casual players without it being easy or even exploitable for those who have hundreds of hours to invest. Likewise, you can't make content that is very challenging for those with unlimited time, without making it inaccessible to casual players.

Similar concept with regard to money.

[mahiro37]

There are a lot of valid points here.

Chai - Great point. I was in ICC runs in WoW that lasted all week, multiple hours per night, and wipe after wipe after wipe. That was when I was unemployed, lol.

Now however, I work all day and have responsibilities in the evening sometimes. I cannot spend endless hours every day playing.

I am sorry for the people who play 14 hours per day, but I pay the same money they do for my subscription and I have the right to at least SOME of the cool stuff. If it means I pay for it from the store, deal with it.

That's why I work all day, so I am able to acquire the things I want in life (and virtual life).

[Vint]

The evidence I present to you on this is as follows: take 11 such "uber" players, and 1 "new fresh level 20 with no gear who joined 3 months ago". Those 11 "pros" can easily drag that new guy through Amrath and Shroud and get him geared asap, and then teach him strats for epic quests. So long as he is a decent player, he will be "Transformed" from "noob" to "vet", even though his playtime could be just a few hours a week (aka "casual").

+1. This is one that has bothered me for a while. You can buy whatever you want from the store or be "power geared" by friends, but if you lack game experience or the understanding of when to use your eSoS, it could bring you trouble down the road.
In my humble opinion, I would rather have someone that has decent game experience (that is not all twinked out) over a twinked out idiot.

I am a vet that is not concerned about whatever anyone else is doing. I have played since beta and have amassed a nice collection of lootz, but I also picked up the more valuable item of knowledge. I understand that this can hurt the integrity of the game, but if this will help fund getting U12 or other things out to me, I would be just as happy.

[Chai]

There are a lot of valid points here.

Chai - Great point. I was in ICC runs in WoW that lasted all week, multiple hours per night, and wipe after wipe after wipe. That was when I was unemployed, lol.

Now however, I work all day and have responsibilities in the evening sometimes. I cannot spend endless hours every day playing.

I am sorry for the people who play 14 hours per day, but I pay the same money they do for my subscription and I have the right to at least SOME of the cool stuff. If it means I pay for it from the store, deal with it.

That's why I work all day, so I am able to acquire the things I want in life (and virtual life).

I agree with you, but I draw the line at raid loot. They already kind of broke that agreement with shroud mats in the store, which they also put in amrath quests to say "but its not exclusively raid loot". This game is already pretty monte haul with elemental burst weapons in the store, mana potions, and unlimited consumables buyable for in game money.

Buying raid loot in the store is when the "pay to win factor" gets turned up a notch. I wont be surprised if this goes over real well (which I think it will due to the number of people who will buy +3s in the store) if they start selling other raid loot or raid crafting components in the store.

It doesnt matter who says yes or no on the forums, it matters who says yes or no with their pocketbook. We better get used to it, because my feeling on this is alot of people will say yes. Many did for +2 tomes when that was "temporary". The difference in convenience in obtaining +2 -vs- +3 tomes in this game is HUGE. If people are willing to pay for +2 to all stats, those same people will likely pay for +3 to all, unless the price is hilarious.

[mahiro37]

I agree with you, but I draw the line at raid loot. They already kind of broke that agreement with shroud mats in the store, which they also put in amrath quests to say "but its not exclusively raid loot". This game is already pretty monte haul with elemental burst weapons in the store, mana potions, and unlimited consumables buyable for in game money.

Buying raid loot in the store is when the "pay to win factor" gets turned up a notch. I wont be surprised if this goes over real well (which I think it will due to the number of people who will buy +3s in the store) if they start selling other raid loot or raid crafting components in the store.

It doesnt matter who says yes or no on the forums, it matters who says yes or no with their pocketbook. We better get used to it, because my feeling on this is alot of people will say yes. Many did for +2 tomes when that was "temporary". The difference in convenience in obtaining +2 -vs- +3 tomes in this game is HUGE. If people are willing to pay for +2 to all stats, those same people will likely pay for +3 to all, unless the price is hilarious.

Understood. I would be a bit miffed myself if after a whole bunch of raid runs I finally get that one cool item I've been wanting and then Joe Shmoe says "Oh hey, look at what I just bought off the store for 10 bucks worth of points" and holds up the same item.

[MrkGrismer]

The "Divide" in DDO is that the highest level difficulties of the game presume you have the highest gear, highest guild ship buffs, maximum Favor rewards (Yugo pots for example), and a group of 11 others the same. It does not "forgive" a few (or more) players having sub-standard gear. It does not "forgive" players who do not have fairly decent twitch skills and reaction times. I am not saying this is either "right" or "wrong", I am saying that this is the fundamental difference I see in "the Divide" you mention.

Approve (e.g. Well Said, Informative, Positive Contribution)

[TBot1234]

Yes, the 'divide' does worry me, somewhat. For example, if there are raids that are made more difficult, and if healers need to use more Pots and so only run those raids with high-level/geared/fellow guildies, then we would expect to see fewer LFMs for end-game content. Who does that help?

I wonder if a lack of LFMs for raids (or other end-game content) is one indicator of the relative health of an MMORPG?

[llyrnionfor]

Just a few clarifications.

When I say time = money, I mean it as an exact equal, as in "both are equally valid disposable resources", i.e., "disposable income" = "disposable time". I understand the bias against "buying", when framed in a historic perspective, but it's all resource management - which is more valuable/disposable to you? I would have no problem if someone bought the item it took me months to grind. I'm enjoying the game, someone else has the same right to enjoy it, too. To each, his own.

Any line we divide here (e.g., raid items) is arbitrary, because the balance will always be on time vs. convenience (which will always be paid for, i.e., money). Ergo,
1) you have the time to grind, you don't need to spend money;
2) you have the time to grind, but don't bother spending money instead;
3) you don't have the time to grind, but you have money to spend;
4) you have neither the time to grind, nor the money to spend.

All these are real life situations, and an MMO should cater to them all, although #4 will always be a problem. Why, these days, #1 is glorified, and #2 and #3 are still vilified is beyond me.

I accept the main divide may not be along the "hardcore vs. casual" line, but rather along the "long-time vs. newly-capped" line. Those who have been playing this longer have a - perfectly natural - head-start. The problem is when one of the benefits of that head-start (namely, gear) gets used as a "screening option". This is a game, not real life. I go on job interviews in real life. I won't do it in a game. My choice, obviously, and I accept the consequences.

I don't subscribe to the "once you win the game, will leave because you're bored" line. In fact, as far as MMOs are concerned, I call it "utter BS". I say we play MMOs mainly for the social factor. I login because I have a guild with a couple of friends, and we play together sometimes. It's not really about gear. Yes, an eSOS is helpful. One of my friends has one, and it helps when the 3 of us go on a quest with 3 pocket clerics. But if I was really enjoying this game, I wouldn't leave the moment I had a few "fully-geared" toons.

Obviously, if you could buy "Epic gear" in the DDO Store, that wouldn't impart "Epic skill/knowledge" unto the player. This lack of knowledge could lead to wipes, indeed. And I'd call that a "Good Thing". Maybe then people would stop using "easy buttons" like HPs/SPs on bars or MyDDO to create prejudice (as quoted here (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice), "an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason") towards someone else's toon, and actually formed their opinion after seeing said toon in action.

How would one go about solving these issues? I still believe the answer is a different playground for each demographic.

[MrkGrismer]

Why, these days, #1 is glorified, and #2 and #3 are still vilified is beyond me.

Because many of those that have nothing but time, also have nothing but time to vilify others on the forums ;)

[mahiro37]

This game is unique in that it allows for people to even have the option to use real money rather than in-game time.

I played WoW for years, and we did not have that option. There was no store to buy items from. You either spent the time grinding out the raids every week or you never got the gear.

That is the primary reason I now play DDO rather than WoW.

I can't spend hours upon hours playing, and my time is worth a lot of money.

Therefore, what right does anyone have to say that I should not be able to substitute money for time?

That being said, I still believe there are certain unique raid items that should always remain raid-only. However, I don't feel that applies to tomes, SP pots, and other minor items that help me better my gaming experience.

[Darkrok]

In DDO we are all casuals.

Most other MMOs raid set up times are hours long, just to get the ~60 player group together, and kill all the trash to get to the boss. Then after you beat on it for 25 minutes and it dies, it drops 2 items, which the guild leader DKPs out to the highest bidder, then you go on a one week timer until the next time you can kill the same mob.

There are still players who have ~10 highest tier geared toons in those games.

Then theres DDO. Half hour raids, 3 day timers, and a buncha jaded gamers who call this a grind game, LOL. The "hard core" players here are slightly less casual than the "casuals" in DDO. I have 3 decent raid / epic toons, and a few more schlubs I can run old world raids with if needed. The "hard core" player has ~10 toons geared just like the 3 I have. The time they put in here in DDO **might** be enough to have one really good toon in WOW or EQ1. If they have alt-itis, prob not.

I was all for selling items that can be earned in game in the store. We were told a couple years ago that raid loot wont be sold for RL money though. Now it is. This decreases the value of time = money considerably. Technically no one needs to put **MOST** of the time they put into raids they already have put in anymore, because most of the loot that comes out of those raids are tomes, which will now be able to be bought.

Just wanted to reiterate what he said here. I've played many MMO's through the years. Even the people that are hardcore in this game would have at worst been typical in some of them. DDO isn't even remotely grindy comparatively. It's honestly why I left 2 of the 3 games that I left (EQ1 and WoW) - the raids just took way too long. When they take that long you have to schedule them. When you schedule things that take 3-4 hours (our typical raid nights in EQ...though some ran longer) you agro your wife pretty quickly.

Not sure if the U11 raids change anything as I'm more of a TR player right now and haven't ran them yet. But for your typical DQ, Shroud, etc. DDO can be played and raided way more casually than most of the other games out there.

[Qaliya]

I can't spend hours upon hours playing, and my time is worth a lot of money.

Therefore, what right does anyone have to say that I should not be able to substitute money for time?


I've made the point before about the time/money equivalence, and I don't have a problem with certain things being buyable for cash. But at the same time, I recognize that those who raise this objection have valid reason for doing so.

One difference between time and money in the context of an MMO is that a small amount of money leverages against a large amount of time, and the differences in disposable income are generally much larger than the differences in disposable time. Just a few dollars offsets against sometimes literally hundreds of hours, allowing those with money to tilt the playing field significantly.

It has to do with being willing to pay one's dues and work towards something. If your time is worth a lot of money, then even $100 probably means little to you. But even for someone whose time isn't worth as much, 100 hours means a lot.

Finally, there's the matter of education and experience, and how money bypasses those issues. We don't allow people to buy (reputable) college degrees because we don't want folks running around claiming they have expertise they do not. Turbine prohibits the selling of accounts for a similar reason. And it can be argued that someone who spends time earning a high-level piece of kit will be a better player *for reasons other than the kit* than someone who just buys it.

[Lord_Thanatos]

This game is unique in that it allows for people to even have the option to use real money rather than in-game time.

I played WoW for years, and we did not have that option. There was no store to buy items from. You either spent the time grinding out the raids every week or you never got the gear.

That is the primary reason I now play DDO rather than WoW.

I can't spend hours upon hours playing, and my time is worth a lot of money.

Therefore, what right does anyone have to say that I should not be able to substitute money for time?

That being said, I still believe there are certain unique raid items that should always remain raid-only. However, I don't feel that applies to tomes, SP pots, and other minor items that help me better my gaming experience.

At least in WoW and other traditional MMOs, the drop rates for raid gear isn't as abymsal as here. So while they might take longer and are harder, you at least get some loot each kill. They don't kill a specific boss 100+ times in order to get the one piece of loot they want.

Here they have increased the difficultly/time-grind but with the still terrible drop rates, which makes it imo an even worse grind.

[mahiro37]

I've made the point before about the time/money equivalence, and I don't have a problem with certain things being buyable for cash. But at the same time, I recognize that those who raise this objection have valid reason for doing so.

One difference between time and money in the context of an MMO is that a small amount of money leverages against a large amount of time, and the differences in disposable income are generally much larger than the differences in disposable time. Just a few dollars offsets against sometimes literally hundreds of hours, allowing those with money to tilt the playing field significantly.

It has to do with being willing to pay one's dues and work towards something. If your time is worth a lot of money, then even $100 probably means little to you. But even for someone whose time isn't worth as much, 100 hours means a lot.

Finally, there's the matter of education and experience, and how money bypasses those issues. We don't allow people to buy (reputable) college degrees because we don't want folks running around claiming they have expertise they do not. Turbine prohibits the selling of accounts for a similar reason. And it can be argued that someone who spends time earning a high-level piece of kit will be a better player *for reasons other than the kit* than someone who just buys it.

Agreed (excuse all of my posts, I'm in IT and between projects right now, so my work is slow).

There is no replacement for experience and knowledge, and no amount of money in the world will provide those.

I guess I am arguing in favor of being able to buy the small stuff while appearing to support the ability to buy the big stuff.

In my mind, +3 tomes and SP pots = small stuff, while Epic gear from top-tier raids = big stuff.

Like my post above said, there will always be gear that IMO should stay raid-only and never be available via the store.

[Chilldude]

At least in WoW and other traditional MMOs, the drop rates for raid gear isn't as abymsal as here. So while they might take longer and are harder, you at least get some loot each kill. They don't kill a specific boss 100+ times in order to get the one piece of loot they want.

Here they have increased the difficultly/time-grind but with the still terrible drop rates, which makes it imo an even worse grind.

I tanked ICC for 3 months straight without a single piece of gear from it. That's right, 3 months of 2-3 nights a week, 2-3 hours a run, raiding and I got nothing, but repair bills. The thing I like most about DDO compared to WoW is the fact that you ALWAYS get something.

[mahiro37]

I tanked ICC for 3 months straight without a single piece of gear from it. That's right, 3 months of 2-3 nights a week, 2-3 hours a run, raiding and I got nothing, but repair bills. The thing I like most about DDO compared to WoW is the fact that you ALWAYS get something.

You too? It became a running joke in my guild when a boss was downed and there was no tank loot.

All I would hear is ".....sorry again Mahiro"...

[Cam_Neely]

At least in WoW and other traditional MMOs, the drop rates for raid gear isn't as abymsal as here.

Ha. Haha. HAHAHA.

What other MMOs have you played at end game that have better drop rates then here? To get almost any raid loot in the game, the average is less then 20 runs. And to run a raid is a very short period of time (including getting the group together) compared to other MMOs.

[Lord_Thanatos]

Ha. Haha. HAHAHA.

What other MMOs have you played at end game that have better drop rates then here? To get almost any raid loot in the game, the average is less then 20 runs. And to run a raid is a very short period of time (including getting the group together) compared to other MMOs.

And yet all the stories of people with +100 Raid completions that have gotten nothing out of it. Or needing 60+ runs to get a torc? Or the drop rates for desert epics in general?

I have never pulled out what I wanted from raids at only 20 completions, If I did, I would feel insanely lucky, DDO loot tables are also filled with so many mostly useless items almost nobody wants (again desert epics) that when something does drop, its most likely nothing you wanted or anyone wants for that matter.

There is trash loot in the other games but nothing compares to DDO.

[therobb]

Any line we divide here (e.g., raid items) is arbitrary, because the balance will always be on time vs. convenience (which will always be paid for, i.e., money). Ergo,
1) you have the time to grind, you don't need to spend money;
2) you have the time to grind, but don't bother spending money instead;
3) you don't have the time to grind, but you have money to spend;
4) you have neither the time to grind, nor the money to spend.

All these are real life situations, and an MMO should cater to them all, although #4 will always be a problem. Why, these days, #1 is glorified, and #2 and #3 are still vilified is beyond me.


Interesting points. What if we look at it in another context? If it's an RPG, the rewards should be given for character achievement.

Characters in your category 1 earned their in-game rewards through in-game character actions. My paladin completed X quest and received Y reward.

Characters in category 3 earned their in-game rewards through out of game player actions actions. My paladin did nothing but I spent $5 and he received Y reward.

I think there needs to be a definite line there, between rewards for the player based on money spent, vs. rewards for the character for in game, in character achievements.

In a PnP sense: did your paladin earn his holy sword because he took heroic actions? Or were you, the player, given a favor by the DM because you shared your Mt. Dew?

The former is the norm, the latter is just lame :P

[mahiro37]

"The former is the norm, the latter is just lame :P"

It is however a feature built into the game that was intended to be used.

To say that utilizing a feature that is available and completely legal is lame is kind of silly.

Now if it were some kind of exploit that people were using to get ahead, I would agree, but this is something implemented as part of the game and there is nothing lame about using it.

As a matter of fact, if people did not use it, there would probably not be any game left for the purists to play.

[redoubt]

Ha. Haha. HAHAHA.

What other MMOs have you played at end game that have better drop rates then here? To get almost any raid loot in the game, the average is less then 20 runs. And to run a raid is a very short period of time (including getting the group together) compared to other MMOs.

Chattering ring, most people ran 100+
Belt of brute str, same

I'm at over 40 runs through the dragon and have yet to get the helm I'm looking for.

Which game are you talking about?

[KingOfCheese]

Time and money. I don't think they are equivalent from a gaming perspective.

I think that time should be weighed more heavily than money in one's ability to access loot. And I say from a perspective where I could personally gain more loot the other way around (I have essentially unlimited capacity to spend $$ on the game--but not unrestricted time).

Why is this my opinion?

In terms of game mechanics there isn't infinite time; but there is effectively infinite money.

Someone that has the time to play 20 hours a day (we'll assume they sleep the other 4) still must expend enormous efforts to get all the goodies they want--if even then. So max time = near max loot with substantial effort.

The same isn't true of $$ and the time it takes to get them. For the time example, I picked an extreme--20 hours a day (some people do it, but not many). Let's do the same with money. Let's take someone that earns their money from work (rather than inheritance, for example). On the high side, there are a number of people that make 1000$/hour--maybe taking home $600/hour after taxes. Let's say they aren't restricted in the number of paying hours worked (lawyers, accountants, etc.). So instead of 20 free-time hours of play, they can work those hours and dedicate the proceeds to the game. That nets $12,000. $12,000 buys everything in the game. If not, than $50,000 does--and that's three hard days of $$ grinding. So not much $$ time = max loot. Of course we can weigh in the effort taken to get the education to get the job or build the business, etc. But that is mostly a neutral factor because the person with the huge amount of time may have made the same investment to free up their time or the person with the huge $$ might have made no such investment (e.g., inheritance).

The "time" person takes months to years to grind the loot. The equivalent $$ person gets it in less than a week.

In part, this is why I think time should weigh more than $$. $$ is too easy. Even if you change the cost of things, I don't see a viable way to sell raid loot without $$ trumping time unless items are made so expensive that they are unbuyable by just about everyone (which won't happen--it won't meet Turbine's financial goals of selling the thing in the 1st instance).

Further, there is a social stigma--and a sensitive one--that comes to the front in this debate. Some people (and not a trivial number) believe that someone that spends all day playing the game (rather than working, for example) is a lesser person than one that works (or does other things). I don't personally believe this (if I was retired--I'd be playing this game like nobody's business). Likewise, some people (and not a trivial number) don't like people with lots of money using it ("flaunting it" "lording it over them"). I don't personally have issues with this either. But these things are going to come out if raid loot is purchasable and the balance between time versus $$ is not handled appropriately.

So what should Turbine do?

1) don't sell stuff; or
2) sell stuff, but just limited stuff and choose very carefully in terms of what is sold (not everything) and how much it costs.

That's my 2 cents (which might have been gained in game or purchased with real life $$--I'm not telling :) ).

[llyrnionfor]

Interesting points. What if we look at it in another context? If it's an RPG, the rewards should be given for character achievement.

You're right. However, DDO is not an RPG. It's an action game with a pint of character costumization. Nowhere are you required to roleplay. You just use skills. Mainly combat skills; occasionally, non-combat skills. I cannot express enough gratitude and admiration towards the designers of "Partycrashers" for giving us a quest where, suddenly, all those "useless" skills are not so useless anymore.

Oh, and gear, naturally. I can get 23 points in a skill over 20 levels. And then get an item that has +15 (i.e., gives me a 65% boost, and I'm not even including exceptional bonuses). The skill points I gathered throughout my 20 levels are somewhat trivialized, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, I digress. The point is, this is not an RPG.



In a PnP sense: did your paladin earn his holy sword because he took heroic actions? Or were you, the player, given a favor by the DM because you shared your Mt. Dew?

The former is the norm, the latter is just lame :P

Did your paladin build his party out of honorable companions? Or did he ask the fighter "May I, perchance, take a glimpse at thy Harry Beaters, o probably-most-valiant-but-actually-not-so-trusted warrior?"

Is the fighter of Good alignment? Or is he Lawful Neutral, because "that's the way to go" at endgame? Does he share a philosphical point-of-view with your paladin? Or are you just going to beat on a random baatezu (yes, I'm a Planescape fan) and then each go his separate way, to sell/repair?

Do you consider "link your Harry Beaters, pls", or "BYOH", or checking MyDDO as "heroic actions"?

Did I mention this is not an RPG?

[llyrnionfor]

You posted your answer whiel I was writing mine, but there are a few interesting points here.


So instead of 20 free-time hours of play, they can work those hours and dedicate the proceeds to the game.

Yes, but if they're working 20 hours and sleeping 4, they're not playing. And this is the point I'm trying to make - you buy the items because you can't afford to invest the time.

Yes, they have more money, but they have less free time.


The "time" person takes months to years to grind the loot. The equivalent $$ person gets it in less than a week.

Yes, that's what you get with money - convenience. When you buy shared bank, you get the convenience of not having to mail items between your toons.


Further, there is a social stigma--and a sensitive one--that comes to the front in this debate. Some people (and not a trivial number) believe that someone that spends all day playing the game (rather than working, for example) is a lesser person than one that works (or does other things).

What I see on the forums is those that have time to spend belittling the notion that anyone with less time than them could actually buy hard-to-get items on the DDO Store. This sounds like the exact opposite of what you're saying.


So what should Turbine do?

I don't know. I know what I'd do, but then, I'm not running an MMO.

[KingOfCheese]

Yes, but if they're working 20 hours and sleeping 4, they're not playing. And this is the point I'm trying to make - you buy the items because you can't afford to invest the time.

Yes, they have more money, but they have less free time.

I see the issue ultimately as one of balance. To some degree, I like the idea of being able to use $$ to buy things one doesn't have time to grind for. I certainly do that currently myself.

But its really easy for the equation to get out of whack. Working hard through one single weekend (for the person in my example) gives them the $$ to spend for a year to buy anything and everything they want. So they may actually have plenty of game time the other 360ish days of the year + infinite buying power. If the goal is to allow $$ to even out inability to commit game time--it seems some mechanism should be used to prevent that evening out from coming too easily.

Or not. But I fear the game will take a hit if this isn't handled carefully.

[Chilldude]

If the goal is to allow $$ to even out inability to commit game time--it seems some mechanism should be used to prevent that evening out from coming too easily.

Or not. But I fear the game will take a hit if this isn't handled carefully.

Only the OP knows what spurred the idea for this thread, but I imagine it had something to do with the +3 tomes, as did your comment I'm sure. I agree with you too, in that there is a point at which making certain items for sale degrades the spirit of the game to the extent that there is little point to play. Yet, going from +2 to +3 tomes isn't even in the same ballpark as far as I'm concerned. 99% of the items in the store are no where near worth the price to me. When I saw that +3 tomes were coming, I thought to myself, "There's another store item I'll probably never buy." +2 tomes are already expensive for what they are, +3 will surely be a fair amount more than that for just 1 more point.

Let's imagine for a moment that you could purchase a level 20 character with best in slot gear for $500. Aside from actually selling a raid completion, that's as close as you could get to pay to win. However, the problem would be that the person who bought it would have nothing to do. Sure, they could run around and have fun chopping up stuff, but that would get old exceedingly fast. The purchaser would be the only person adversely affected by their purchase, and they'd leave the game in short order because of the lack of anything to do. It's just like if you've ever turned on god mode and infinite ammo in a single player game, it's fun for a few minutes and then you move on.

In DDO we aren't playing against each other, we are playing with each other. If you are concerned that someone else can buy something you got from a raid, you are looking at it all wrong. It doesn't tarnish your achievement, because you haven't achieved anything that anyone else couldn't have, anyone. I think that's the point the OP was trying to make. That if you could buy a greensteel weapon from the store it would be no different that spending hours upon hours farming the shroud to get the mats to make it. If you have the time, the greensteel is there to be had, no question about it. You farmed yours, they bought theirs, there's really no difference other than point of view. I'm sure some people think that people shouldn't be able to farm what they are able to purchase, and would prefer to see a game where cash was king.

What if you could buy the antique greataxe from the store? Anyone can jump on a level 7+ character and power through the whole chain in an hour or so to get it. Selling it wouldn't tarnish someone else's achievement of getting it. End game raiding is no different, if 12 well geared and experienced players team up against a raid, it's no different than someone zerging through the big top chain. It comes down to simply a matter of time. As a matter of fact, since end game raiders are typically so exclusive and dismissive of less geared players, it's actually much easier for them to grind out a completion than for someone just starting out, no matter their skill level. Selling raid loot would help bridge that gap.

The only time it would make a difference would be for loot that couldn't be farmed. For example, let's say the antique greataxe was bound to character and it only dropped on elite, and only if the highest level player in the party was level 5, then getting it would an achievement. I'm not aware of any loot in the game that can't be farmed, including end game raid loot. Therefore, as the OP stated, money=time. They are equals, obtaining loot from one method does not diminish the other.

---edit---

I forgot to mention, this response was inspired by the quoted text, but is not a rebuttal to it.

[Galeria]

The discussion started wasn't about letting just everyone pay to win.

The discussion is about making a specific server for people with more money than time. Those who can buy the items they want never mix with the people who have invested their time.

It would be a casual gamer's server. More items you can buy, higher drop rates. People who've invested years and basically have a lifestyle that allows them to play full time do not have to share their super-special gear or achievements with people who've only started 5 months ago.

IMO, it also might help extend the life of the game- players who have everything they want on the baby pool server might then decide to do it the hard way for more challenge.

It also helps fund the game without upsetting the balance of the rest of the servers.

I think it makes a lot of sense.

[Chilldude]

The discussion started wasn't about letting just everyone pay to win.

The discussion is about making a specific server for people with more money than time.

I don't know that's true. In the original post, although that was mentioned as a possible solution the OP had thought of in the past, they specifically stated the point of their post was that they will likely go back to single player RPGs as MMOs (not just DDO) seem to be unable to deal with this aspect of the game, the divide created by people with a lot of time.

I completely agree with the OP's assessment of the major flaw in MMO's and the divide created between players due to some players having much more time than others, but I don't agree with separate servers for people with time and people with money.


IMO, it also might help extend the life of the game- players who have everything they want on the baby pool server might then decide to do it the hard way for more challenge.

I got a pretty good laugh out of that not only because it's untrue, but I feel it entirely misses the point. Grinding out gear isn't a challenge, it's time consuming. The vast majority, vast majority, almost all, elitist grinders do everything in their power to remove challenge from the equation. To the extent that they exclude anyone that might put their quick and guaranteed completion in jeopardy, hence the divide.

[Qaliya]

I got a pretty good laugh out of that not only because it's untrue, but I feel it entirely misses the point. Grinding out gear isn't a challenge, it's time consuming. The vast majority, vast majority, almost all, elitist grinders do everything in their power to remove challenge from the equation. To the extent that they exclude anyone that might put their quick and guaranteed completion in jeopardy, hence the divide.

This is a very valid observation.

There are RuneScape players who think getting 200,000,000 Mining XP by walking in circles clicking on rocks for hundreds of hours is a "challenge" and an "accomplishment".

[Galeria]

I can think of several people I know who'd never leave the easy world of high drop rates and buy-what-you-want. Until they got everything... played the end content... then moved on to a new game.

So, it makes good short-term money for Turbine.

It doesn't affect the value of items or the playstyle on the other servers. People who don't have much time can still have it all... with other players who have similar needs.

I think it's brilliant.

[Krago]

God Mode server only?