HP are important

[FlameDiablo]

A lot of ppl are squishy, i seen lvl 20 ppl that got less than 200 HP... O.o?
Some ppl thinks that HP are just for who dunno how to play, this is totally false, the best player of the hystory cannot survive under epic velah with just 200 HP, or under epic queen.
HP makes yur toon more solid and harder to kill, die isn't just annoyng, but is waste of time and mana for ress and rebuff, yu lose ship buffs and stop to DPS for a bit, in some situations like TOD part 2, if yu are kiting shadows, die may become a real problem.

1 example? i can solo-heal epic VON 6 with no pots... if everybody got 500+ HP, but this never appens :/

Sometimes i put up lfm and write 350HP+, sometimes ppl ignore this and join with 200 HP, so i tell em thet we require 350HP+ and kik, they become mad, insult and squelch me... lol? did yu read lfm before to apply?

As veteran i remember that epics and elite end-game raids aren't for fresh and naked lvl 20 toons, start from normal runs and shroud, when yu have enought equip (not just HP) yu can apply for the real end-game.

HP are important, some advices for end game:

Shroud:
arcane 250+
healer 400+
tanker 500+
rest 300+

Non-epic raids on normal:
arcane 300+
healer 450+
tanker 600+
rest 400+

Epic and elite:
arcane 400+
healer 500+
tanker 800+
rest 500+

[StupendoThug]

I would actually propose...

Epic and elite:
rest 600+

This became apparent to me yesterday.
My new von6 rule of thumb is "600 or bust"
This probably also means some classes will be just "bust"
This also means one of my paladins has become a huge bag of suckage with the last update, and needs to be fixed. 530 HP doesn't cut it anymore.

[Bodic]

I would actually propose...

Epic and elite:
rest 600+

This became apparent to me yesterday.
My new von6 rule of thumb is "600 or bust"
This probably also means some classes will be just "bust"
This also means one of my paladins has become a huge bag of suckage with the last update, and needs to be fixed. 530 HP doesn't cut it anymore.


You dont have a clue do you?

[-Nismu-]

It is that most don't have the gear to get that hp up. It takes time to get all and unless you are vip you might not even have all packs the get those items. And then many those hp items demand lots of grinding which isn't fun. Specially if you are just deleting character after getting it to cap and starting new one.

and that non tr characters have limited amount of ability points so there necesserily isn't enough to put con without gimping character otherwise.

[grayham]

OP - in my opinion you are simply fearmongering in your efforts to offer help and advice. Your post may have been relevant 2 months ago, but the so-called squishies can tell fairly quickly whether they are about right by looking at a few group UI's.

"You need this, you need that.."

Prescriptive and uninformative.

Acquiring HP isn't a simple case of wandering into the 'Stormreach Hitpoint Emporium' and choosing the right number. Lots of people are either ignorant of where to get HP from and how. See my signature for further advice.

Oh, and I've seen 200hp toons survive just fine in epics. This isn't top trumps, player skill counts for a lot.

[FlameDiablo]

It is that most don't have the gear to get that hp up. It takes time to get all and unless you are vip you might not even have all packs the get those items. And then many those hp items demand lots of grinding which isn't fun. Specially if you are just deleting character after getting it to cap and starting new one.

and that non tr characters have limited amount of ability points so there necesserily isn't enough to put con without gimping character otherwise.

I'm F2P and got 557 HP unbuffed on my FvS and it is just a 2nd ary toon, 1st life, sometimes yu met ppl without con +6 random generated item... is hard to go on AH and spend 5k pp for that?
Sure yu need to grind a bit to make a good toon, but epic and elite aren't for all, they need to be filtered.

Is a simple concept: why a player that grinded a loot to equip him toon must be considered as another one that never cared the game?

[joaofalcao]

Well, this is going to be polemical. What a shame.

I am a real person, hidden somewhere around the globe. And those little pixels in my screen are such people as myself. Therefore, I threat them as such.

Nothing makes me happier than bringing first timers into raid completions. Its somewhat of a personal gratification. A pay back for when I was a first timer at a quest and so on.

On a related note, having a real fresh/weak group and dragging them into completion was also a great acomplishment.

But seriously, U11 killed it all for us.

I have a similar post stated here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=342323

I really hope turbine rollback this, its a great strike into PUGgin, new players and such.

And while I might agree that rookies are not for raids anymore and HP have more importance now, let me say "Hey, lets not get crazy in here."

400 HP cleric on shroud? Is he hugging harry or something? Why he needs more HP than the melee? I had 230 HP last night on my arcane and survived a meteor in the face.

Think about stuff like this. Maybe your overreacting over some bad runs?

And let me say one more thing. Regardless of you opinion, regardless on the declined opinions, regardless of turbines opinion(U11), regardless my opinion, regardless of anything, Respect mode always on. You give it, you get it. Maybe you ll stumble upon some immature teenagers that dont get that, even tough, always do your best.

[Dinglebarry]

The problem is that there is such a huge difference between Normal and Epic, or even Normal and Elite.

The way ddo is set up it encourages the simple/easy playability at low levels, but when you reach level cap, the game has been turned on its head.

Unfortunately, the level cap game is only about hitpoints & DPS, DDO lost it's way somewhere along the line. Hitpoints should never have become so important as they are these days. It needs no mentioning that lag has indirectly also increased the requirements for hitpoints.

I believe the LFM that demands a minimum HP is skewing the game even further. The displaying of the HP for party members is also causing grief for players that may be just fine with their lower than required HP.

[RandomKeypress]

I've got to disagree with the OP here, and Stupendo Thug too. Primarly, you don't factor improved evasion in your calculations. It halves the damage taken from attacks with reflex save if the save is failed.
When raids are run well, the non-tanks take damage from AoE spells, traps (rare) and trash. The trash seldom have significant damage output and are CCd or kited if they do. Evasion non-tanks just don't need as many HP as non-evasion toons. 50% damage mitigation counts for a lot.

Why does it matter? Well, for some toons, getting to 600HP means sacrificing DPS. That means that you kill the boss slower and so the group as a whole takes more damage and it becomes harder for a healer to keep things up. Now ideally, you'd just have eleven or twelve casters (depending on whether or not you're going to bother with a tank) and it won't be a problem, but you don't really NEED twelve casters and groups form quicker if you let other classes play too. Quicker still if you take a practical approach to survivability.

A raid group with lower entrance requirements will fill faster and if run properly will finish while ultra-high LFMs are still up.

"Perfection is the enemy of good enough" (to misquote Voltaire)

[-Nismu-]

I'm F2P and got 557 HP unbuffed on my FvS and it is just a 2nd ary toon, 1st life, sometimes yu met ppl without con +6 random generated item... is hard to go on AH and spend 5k pp for that?
Sure yu need to grind a bit to make a good toon, but epic and elite aren't for all, they need to be filtered.

Is a simple concept: why a player that grinded a loot to equip him toon must be considered as another one that never cared the game?

If those things really were 5k it propably wouldn't be problem, but actually usually each time i look for them all i see is 100k+ prices so instead buying i just wait to find one. and that is only 60 hp, not that much.. still missing few hundred to get those listed hps.

[FlameDiablo]

I like to instruct noobs sometimes, but are instructional runs. Runs for completions are totally different.

[Arel]

Having Evasion (or better yet, Imp. Evasion) changes those values in most cases. Just a note.

Also, there's a significant difference between a 'normal' player a and a 'good' player. A good player will be able to avoid damage, or have some way to keep himself alive until the healer can top him back up. For example, a good light monk can supplement a lower-than-average hit point total with healing from Fists of Light, not to mention the fact that they have imp. evasion.

That being said, if you're under 250 HP at end game, you're missing something important, whether that be base CON, a CON/False Life item, or Toughness. Or you're just being silly on purpose (someone posted something a while ago about a level 16 Sorc with only 14 HP, or something similarly ridiculous).

[Raoull]

HP are important, some advices for end game:

Shroud:
healer 400+


This is a bit rough. For a cleric who stands in the melee while healing, sure. But otherwise, 300 is probably OK, definitely 350.

A lvl 16 cleric will have issues getting their HPs that high.... 14 base con +6 item, GFL, Minos, 2 toughness enh.... That's only about 320. For a first life toon though, that's all you can hope for. How's he supposed to get his +45HP item if he can't get in.

Waiting for cap still won't quite do it, that only gives 370 or so.

[stoerm]

400 HP cleric on shroud? Is he hugging harry or something? Why he needs more HP than the melee? I had 230 HP last night on my arcane and survived a meteor in the face.

This.

There IS such a thing as "too little HP", for example 150 is too little for Shroud. Yes others will pull you through but you'll die a couple times (real world example).

But you need perspective, there's no way a 28pt cleric is going to have 400 HP entering the Shroud for the first time. If it's the player's first toon, there's no way he/she will have access to a +2 Con tome or twink gear. I finished with ~350 HP on my 32pt cleric and I think I died once in the Shroud, having run it 20+ times.

[Candela90]

sLol. are u crazy?
I know wizards with 250 hp that can solo epics pretty well.
My fvs have 390 hp (with Death Pact) and 412 without it, and guess what? shes dying really rare on epics.
Yeah, i could have started with 18 than 14 con, and take 3 nore toughnesses and suck as a caster (no spell focus or metamagics, no acceptable wisdom). If i do my GS to tier 3 im gonna have 430-450hp. No more. For what? Its not like im standing in first line. If its melee fvs then yes... but a caster? O.O

i think casters are better with powerfull magic and a little lower life, than with 500hp and sacrificing magic. (okey... if someone is a legend an have great epic gear... but not all people have).
And rogue is melee too. Try to get to 500hp on rogue, have good trap skills, and not dump dex and str to able to hit good. Even with good gear its kinda hard.

And i just prefer heal 300hp people who kill boss in 2 mins, than 600hp people who fight, fight nd fight and boss life is hardly moving.
My standards are on epic:
arcane: 250+
rogues,rangers 350+
tanks 650+
healers 350+
others (in tht melee divines and arcanes) 450+

But if someone is lower im okey with it as long as he/she can do his/her job.

I was wary when i had a tank on echrono with 550hp. And he did good. I jus never let him lower than 50% hp.

What is better?
Wizz with 2300 sp, 250 hp and great CC and good dmg
Or Wizz with 1800sp, 450hp, avergae CC and average dmg
?
Cause i prefer the first one.
I also prefer melee with 350 hp doing great damage than 700 hp who can hardly hit in epic.

[Noneof]

Non-epic raids on normal:
arcane 300+
healer 450+
tanker 600+
rest 400+



Please show us a toon that meets these criteria for an at level VON.

[FlameDiablo]

This is a bit rough. For a cleric who stands in the melee while healing, sure...

For an equipped healer (torc+concordant) that wanna solo-heal shroud (is not that difficult), stay in melee is really good not just for extra mana from torc and conc, but to don't lose massess coz can heal on himself, and if cleric aura is another good reason.

[gloopygloop]

If those things really were 5k it propably wouldn't be problem, but actually usually each time i look for them all i see is 100k+ prices so instead buying i just wait to find one. and that is only 60 hp, not that much.. still missing few hundred to get those listed hps.

Don't look for a ML13 +6 Con ring by itself. Look for a +6 Con ring/belt/etc of +3 Swim or some other trash suffix.

Just search with ML 13 to 20 for "+6" under Clothing and Jewelry.

Right now on Argonessen, you can find
Ogre Power +6 Bracers of Assistance +3: 2500 plat.
Clever +6 Goggles of the Eagle +3: 3500 plat.
Wise +6 Necklace of Bluffing +5: 5000 plat.
Health +6 Belt of Lesser False Life: 20,000 plat.

And there are dozens of Health +5 belts on the AH for under 15k plat each week.

[FlameDiablo]

sLol. are u crazy?
I know wizards with 250 hp that can solo epics pretty well.
My fvs have 390 hp (with Death Pact) and 412 without it, and guess what? shes dying really rare on epics.
Yeah, i could have started with 18 than 14 con, and take 3 nore toughnesses and suck as a caster (no spell focus or metamagics, no acceptable wisdom). If i do my GS to tier 3 im gonna have 430-450hp. No more. For what? Its not like im standing in first line. If its melee fvs then yes... but a caster? O.O

i think casters are better with powerfull magic and a little lower life, than with 500hp and sacrificing magic. (okey... if someone is a legend an have great epic gear... but not all people have).
And rogue is melee too. Try to get to 500hp on rogue, have good trap skills, and not dump dex and str to able to hit good. Even with good gear its kinda hard.

And i just prefer heal 300hp people who kill boss in 2 mins, than 600hp people who fight, fight nd fight and boss life is hardly moving.
My standards are on epic:
arcane: 250+
rogues,rangers 350+
tanks 650+
healers 350+
others (in tht melee divines and arcanes) 450+

But if someone is lower im okey with it as long as he/she can do his/her job.

I was wary when i had a tank on echrono with 550hp. And he did good. I jus never let him lower than 50% hp.

What is better?
Wizz with 2300 sp, 250 hp and great CC and good dmg
Or Wizz with 1800sp, 450hp, avergae CC and average dmg
?
Cause i prefer the first one.
I also prefer melee with 350 hp doing great damage than 700 hp who can hardly hit in epic.

Totally agree with yu, but my FvS got 557 unbuffed HP and... all metamagic for healing, 38 DC on spells (42 wis full buffed), and nuke really good. good HP doesn't mean the rest is bad, just need some equip.

[Bodic]

Please show us a toon that meets these criteria for an at level VON.


I am going with he is only talking 20. Not that it makes an sense.

[gloopygloop]

What is better?
Wizz with 2300 sp, 250 hp and great CC and good dmg
Or Wizz with 1800sp, 450hp, avergae CC and average dmg
?
Cause i prefer the first one.
I also prefer melee with 350 hp doing great damage than 700 hp who can hardly hit in epic.

player skill > HP
but...
player skill + HP >> player skill without HP

[alexp80]

Oh, and I've seen 200hp toons survive just fine in epics. This isn't top trumps, player skill counts for a lot.

and some epics cann be easily soloed.

but i really can't see how a dps could stand against epic Velah with less then 400hp without dying or draining healer sp (or both). This is not a matter of skill, this is unavoidable damage, and you need hp for that. The rest are words to the wind

[Vellrad]

Good God!
Sweet Merciful Lord!
Not another one!

[alexp80]

Wizz with 2300 sp, 250 hp and great CC and good dmg
Or Wizz with 1800sp, 450hp, avergae CC and average dmg


both are not good.
A regular wiz can have around 450-500 hp, 2000-2200 sp, good-to-great cc and damage
quite easily with a little effort on equip.

Any toon without evasion (and good reflex) with less then 300hp is one-shotted in epics by almost any aoe.

[Candela90]

both are not good.
A regular wiz can have around 450-500 hp, 2000-2200 sp, good-to-great cc and damage
quite easily with a little effort on equip.

Any toon without evasion (and good reflex) with less then 300hp is one-shotted in epics by almost any aoe.

I got shot on epics by THE MOST 200 dmg per one hit ( of course fire on evon6... it doesnt matter how much hp u have, tanks with 750-800 die there too).. And really rare. Sorcs and wizzies have displacment and haste, so can move really fast and not get hitted. dont think they need 500hp.
And my toon is fvs that dont have these things. Wings are help, yes, but no haste or displacement. And i dont have great AC. Only fvs dr.
Okey, i have self healing. But most arcanes too.

And i dont know if i can have on my wizz (only 7 lvl now... but i tried to count) so much hp.
16 con + 6 item + toughness + toughness enh line is something around 320. If i got GS and minos kegend ill hit 400. I still need 100 more. key +2 con from airship. and ill hit this 400 for sure.
But 100 is a big thing... not all have +4 con tome, and +2 exceptional constitution (this would be still 460-480, not 500)
and ending gs is long... and not all have acces to necro for minos legend.
BTW does minos legend stack with false life? Cause if it does i would be able to hit 400 without ending gs.

[Shishizaru]

Well, I'm glad that I'm on your server and my favorite character (pure bard) can't run anything epic or elite. Darn. I guess I'll just stick to my normal runs of Reaver's Fate, because I actually meet the "requirements" for that one. ;)

[Chauncey1]

Risking yet again that I might expose my noobocity.
I recently reset enhancements on my main to get higher HP's. I am now Stalwart Defender III with close to 700hp's. Up from about 520.
Some of my friends who ran their mains, also lvl 20's, were around 500hp's or lower...and they did just fine. This was in cove @ lvl25 though, not any of the crazy hard high end quests. Though someone remarked that on lvl 25, Jibbers was tougher than Harry. Jury's still out on that one.
They will probably reset their enhancements as well, but only because they're jealous that mine are higher, lol.
This does not bode well...I foresee a never ending competition for who has the highest HP's.

[Cartheron]

And i dont know if i can have on my wizz (only 7 lvl now... but i tried to count) so much hp.
16 con + 6 item + toughness + toughness enh line is something around 320. If i got GS and minos kegend ill hit 400. I still need 100 more. key +2 con from airship. and ill hit this 400 for sure.
But 100 is a big thing... not all have +4 con tome, and +2 exceptional constitution (this would be still 460-480, not 500)
and ending gs is long... and not all have acces to necro for minos legend.
BTW does minos legend stack with false life? Cause if it does i would be able to hit 400 without ending gs.

Wizard lev 20, drow PM (3rd life to actually get 16 starting con;)):

20 heroic vitality
80 wizard levels
60 starting con
60 +6con item
20 +2 con tome
30 greater false life
20 minos legend
22 toughness
20 tougness ench
40 lich form
20 PM ench
20 rage
20 ship buff

432 HP

now we start to try little harder

45 GS item
10 superior false life
40 yugo pot

527 HP

40 +3 tome and +3 exc con

567 HP

trying really hard

20 +7 con item and LotD or +4 tome

587 HP on a max DC wizard. Not bad;) As human, you can get 50 more on a first life (but with pretty severe AP investment) for 637 buffed HP.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

U11 has taught me pretty much what I always thought....

Most people have about the same amount of HP that I do..... and it is not 500+!

It's between 300-450, depending on class. with 380ish being average for non-Ftrs and Brbs.

But it has also shown me that two or three people out of 12 will have 500+. Usually a Ftr or Brb, with the real high ones being Brb of course.
But also a large number of Arcanes (presumambly because they maxed casting stat, then dumped everything else into Con)
I have only seen a few Clr or Fvs with over 500.

Sadly, almost every time I see someone with less than 300 it is a Rogue. :( (truthfully I have seen a number of arcanes with less too.)


Oh...and Crystal Cove has also shown me what I already knew......that the guy with 200 can survive just fine, and the Barb with 600 can die a whole bunch of times with ease.......
and of course that no one carries any self healing what-so-ever...

[gloopygloop]

Oh...and Crystal Cove has also shown me what I already knew......that the guy with 200 can survive just fine, and the Barb with 600 can die a whole bunch of times with ease.......
and of course that no one carries any self healing what-so-ever...

If surviving in Crystal Cove is how you rate players, then you need to raise your standards.

[joaofalcao]

And yet another thread that shows how poorly designed DDO is. =/

A d4 base HP class can reach 600HP.

No wonder why "Caster only" LFMs are spreading like a terminal decease as of late.

[Bodic]

we will assume 14 con base all classes no epic gear allowed using the low HP races Elf, Drow, Halfling, and Half Orc.
10 Draconic
20 Heroic
20 Minos
20 Racial Toughness Enhancement
22 Toughness Feat
30 Greater False Life
45 Green Steel :HP
120 +6 Con Modifier hp (Base+6 item+2 ex Item)

287

d4(80) 367
d6(120) 407
d8(160) 447 (467 Monk)(487 FvS)
d10(240) 527
d12(280) 567

Now everyone can get that +4 tome on normal ToD right so add 40 HP to all and it looks like Barbarian is the only one crossing the 600 barrier, but they have there rage right so they were already there. Even adding a litany and 1 exCon your fighters and paladins are still short.

I shall never count Yugo, Rage, Ship, Store, and other fake HP spells to supplement HP's (this is called buffed)

[Musouka]

Eh... I do just fine in every epic even post U11 with my 300 HP Human Sorcerer.

I started with 18 CON, and did not take Toughness Feat, do not wear Toughness item, nor any false life. I just have a good +6 CON, +1 exc con, and +1 con from enhancements.

I chose my feats to be: Maximize Spell, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, SF: Conjuration, GSF: Conj, SF: Trans, GSF: Trans

My gear layout is pretty good, as I am just missing the ToD ring I want, then I'll add another +2 Charisma.

I recently acquired a couple epic items, not from the event, and am looking to put GFL in one of them.

[Xioden]

Don't look for a ML13 +6 Con ring by itself. Look for a +6 Con ring/belt/etc of +3 Swim or some other trash suffix.

Just search with ML 13 to 20 for "+6" under Clothing and Jewelry.

Right now on Argonessen, you can find
Ogre Power +6 Bracers of Assistance +3: 2500 plat.
Clever +6 Goggles of the Eagle +3: 3500 plat.
Wise +6 Necklace of Bluffing +5: 5000 plat.
Health +6 Belt of Lesser False Life: 20,000 plat.

And there are dozens of Health +5 belts on the AH for under 15k plat each week.

Add Greater False Life to that list (belt for most classes) and the amount you're looking to spend jumps up significantly. On Khyber the cheapest +6 Con item that isn't on a belt is 95k.

[Candela90]

Wizard lev 20, drow PM (3rd life to actually get 16 starting con;)):

20 heroic vitality
80 wizard levels
60 starting con
60 +6con item
20 +2 con tome
30 greater false life
20 minos legend
22 toughness
20 tougness ench
40 lich form
20 PM ench
20 rage
20 ship buff

432 HP

now we start to try little harder

45 GS item
10 superior false life
40 yugo pot

527 HP

40 +3 tome and +3 exc con

567 HP

trying really hard

20 +7 con item and LotD or +4 tome

587 HP on a max DC wizard. Not bad;) As human, you can get 50 more on a first life (but with pretty severe AP investment) for 637 buffed HP.

So ill have 400 like i thought. Yugo pots...eh. On mu fvs still need 20 more favor and did ToD on hard. After u11 im kinda afraid xD

[gloopygloop]

we will assume 14 con base all classes no epic gear allowed using the low HP races Elf, Drow, Halfling, and Half Orc.
10 Draconic
20 Heroic
20 Minos
20 Racial Toughness Enhancement
22 Toughness Feat
30 Superior False Life
45 Green Steel :HP
120 +6 Con Modifier hp (Base+6 item+2 ex Item)

287

d4(80) 367
d6(120) 407
d8(160) 447 (467 Monk)(487 FvS)
d10(240) 527
d12(280) 567

Now everyone can get that +4 tome on normal ToD right so add 40 HP to all and it looks like Barbarian is the only one crossing the 600 barrier, but they have there rage right so they were already there. Even adding a litany and 1 exCon your fighters and paladins are still short.

I shall never count Yugo, Rage, Ship, Store, and other fake HP spells to supplement HP's (this is called buffed)

Superior False Life = 40 HP, not 30
+2 Con Tome = 20 HP

All sustainable buffs that every character can maintain through an entire quest with little or no effort should reasonably be counted as well, so that adds in +20 Rage and +20 Ship. I certainly would not count Yugo pots or anything from the store.

That doesn't make an enormous difference in your numbers, but +70 HP does get even the d4 classes above 400 and it brings all of the D10 classes up to 597. Add in a small guild slot item and you're over 600 without any Rage ability (just counting the spell).

[gloopygloop]

Add Greater False Life to that list (belt for most classes) and the amount you're looking to spend jumps up significantly. On Khyber the cheapest +6 Con item that isn't on a belt is 95k.

Don't forget that you can also get someone to drag you through a couple of easy Amrath quests (Sins in particular) for +6 Con/GLF together on a belt for free (as long as you have the pack or a guest pass, of course).

[Musouka]

All sustainable buffs that every character can maintain through an entire quest with little or no effort should reasonably be counted as well, so that adds in +20 Rage and +20 Ship.

I wouldn't count the ship buff, because not everyone is in a guild high enough level for that buff, and not every group is going to have at least 1 person with a ship of such level to invite people on for that.

[krackythehoodedone]

Yes hit Points are important especially in Epics.

Not sure about the numbers thing tho.

Through starting Con,Con items and Hit Point boosters such as ur GS item ur GFL (or superior GFL if u can) and Pots like Silver Flame and Stat Boosters.

Get every last hit point out of your build you possibly can it really does make a difference.,

As for numbers err 250 is big trouble for certain Epics like EADQ2.

I wouldnt like to go into the Harry endfight with less than 400 if i were meleeing him

[gloopygloop]

I wouldn't count the ship buff, because not everyone is in a guild high enough level for that buff, and not every group is going to have at least 1 person with a ship of such level to invite people on for that.

If you're doing epics or raids (and epic raids in particular), then there's a good chance that at least someone is going to be available to do ship invites - even if it's just for the elemental resists to save time and SP buffing once everyone is in the raid.

I agree that you shouldn't count it all the time, but it's at least worth considering as part of a "standard" package that most people doing epic stuff will have regular access to.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If surviving in Crystal Cove is how you rate players, then you need to raise your standards.

I use that as the example because that is what I have ran most since U11...at least as far as higher lvl stuff goes.

And like I said....the guys with 600 HP sure did die alot....
Also a whole lot of posts seem to think lvl 25 Cove is difficult for some reason... Personally I do not think that is is.. But like I said, guys with low HP can do just fine, and guys with high HP can still die with ease.

So which is it? easy or hard?

Doesn't matter IMO, it just shows that HP have little to do with whether the person was dying or not.

One could argue player skill, but my argument is actually that the people who lived could actually take care of themselves, while the people who died couldn't walk out of range of a healer for a second without dying.....

Yes, HP are important. They are part of the overall package.

But IMO, simply knowing how to take care of yourself is a lot more important.

But.... that 300 damage Epic AOE someone mentioned..... will two shot a 600 HP toon....who dumped Dex.

But will not one shot the 300HP toon who has a high Ref save.
And if the guy has evasion....he can take 19 shots of that same AOE spell and live.
And if he has Improved Evasion, he can take....... (I guess it would be 21 shots), before dying.

So which is better against an epic 300 damage AOE spell? High Con or high Dex?

Of course melee damage is a whole different story. But then...there are ways to avoid that too. (agro management being th biggest method)
Cause contrary to popular belief, you don't simply walk into an epic dungeon and take 300 HP of damage/second. (Von6 may be an exception...)

But... once again. I am not saying that HP are not important....they are.
Just not as important as so many forum posters act like they are.

But...f the only way you play this game is Swing, Endure, Heal than yeah......you need some HP.

[Musouka]

If you're doing epics or raids (and epic raids in particular), then there's a good chance that at least someone is going to be available to do ship invites - even if it's just for the elemental resists to save time and SP buffing once everyone is in the raid.

I agree that you shouldn't count it all the time, but it's at least worth considering as part of a "standard" package that most people doing epic stuff will have regular access to.

We're talking about Cannith, and there are guilds here that do not want their members inviting others onto their ship. So it's a bit tougher still.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot count on it ALL the time, so it cannot be considered a sustainable buff like you wrote.

[Bodic]

Superior False Life = 40 HP, not 30
+2 Con Tome = 20 HP

All sustainable buffs that every character can maintain through an entire quest with little or no effort should reasonably be counted as well, so that adds in +20 Rage and +20 Ship. I certainly would not count Yugo pots or anything from the store.

That doesn't make an enormous difference in your numbers, but +70 HP does get even the d4 classes above 400 and it brings all of the D10 classes up to 597. Add in a small guild slot item and you're over 600 without any Rage ability (just counting the spell).

I quoted a +4 con tome if you read in the paragraph for 40HP.
I changed it to Greater as I ment Greater not Superior NO EPICS
Temporary is exactly that Temporary its not Permenant all buffs dont count.

You craze the HP point and say well so and so can drag you thru and you can get this. Well your so and so drag them thru.

By definition you woud deny this toon below.


So I am going over gearout for end game figures are reflective of next life as a 36pt Helf 20 Rogue w/barb dilly.
sidenote: This is for maximum all round utility my only planned swap gear is noted.

Helm: GS: hp
Bracer: E Scorched / Ventilated
Neck: Verik's
Belt: E Mroranon
Cloak: E Envenomed
Ring: Verik's
Ring: E Bucaneer
Boots: Stride/Anchor/??
Body: DT
Goggles: Tharnes
Trinket: Bloodstone/Cove
Gloves: E Charged

for the augment slots +1 dex/str/int +6 cha/int and Grater False Life. The Verik's ringbeing +2 ex Con slotted.

Looking at 16 base Con if I also get that +4 tome should land at 547 HP.

Thoughts/Ideas?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

And yet another thread that shows how poorly designed DDO is. =/

A d4 base HP class can reach 600HP.

No wonder why "Caster only" LFMs are spreading like a terminal decease as of late.

This is not a fault of the design.

It is totally a representation of what the players' priorities are.

It is also misleading, because in most cases, people are using temporary buffs to support their numbers.

Many are also using rare loot drops for their numbers....and pretending they are easy to get.

Then there are the multiple TRs/Completionists....

[gloopygloop]

I quoted a +4 con tome if you read in the paragraph for 40HP.
I changed it to Greater as I ment Greater not Superior NO EPICS
Temporary is exactly that Temporary its not Permenant all buffs dont count.

You craze the HP point and say well so and so can drag you thru and you can get this. Well your so and so drag them thru.

By definition you woud deny this toon below.

1) I figured that your "everyone can get +4 tome" was sarcasm. Was I wrong?
2) I saw that post before the edit. GFL is 30 as you have listed, so that's certainly fine now.

I'm not sure what you mean by "You craze the HP point" actually means. I never said that I would deny characters based on their HP unless they were *far* below reasonable levels. I'd /kick someone with under 200 HP in a VoD run or in a eDQ or eVoN6, but I'd be fine with having them along on a HoX run or a Shroud.

I never said that I expect people to have 600+ HP. I was just saying that it is entirely possible for the d10 people to get to 600-ish HP even without rediculous gear self-buffed.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Not everyone will have Argo favor. (but it is a great pack, and I think most people will have it.)

Not everyone will have a Minos Helm. (IMO it's a goo dpack to have, but people seem to really hate the necro quests.) Besides the pack, the game now has some pretty good named helmets.
But again....most people will have one.

Not everyone will have a +2 tome. (or a +3, or +4)

Not everyone wil make a GS HP item as their first GS item. (I don't have a 45 HP one yet!)

Not everyone will have "any" source of exceptional Con.

And my Elves and Drow typically have 12 Cons as a base.


Plus.... +6 Con and Greater False Life items do not exactly just fall from the sky! (Devil Market Event excepted of course. ;) )
New players may not get those by lvl 20.
Although again....most people will have them.

Anyway.... it brings the (permanent) numbers back into the 300-450 range.

Which "is" exactly what I see for the average PUGer. (who somehow how completes all of those quests anyway.....)

[Vyrn]

400 HP cleric on shroud? Is he hugging harry or something? Why he needs more HP than the melee? I had 230 HP last night on my arcane and survived a meteor in the face.

Think about stuff like this. Maybe your overreacting over some bad runs?


Er, yes, why wouldnt I hug harry? Not seeing a reason not to. Aura + Burst + Trusting me more not to back out like an idiot.



We're talking about Cannith, and there are guilds here that do not want their members inviting others onto their ship. So it's a bit tougher still.

The fact of the matter is that you cannot count on it ALL the time, so it cannot be considered a sustainable buff like you wrote.

Really? I was under the impression people didnt really care who clicked things on their ship regardless of guild tag.

[canisll]

I use that as the example because that is what I have ran most since U11...at least as far as higher lvl stuff goes.

And like I said....the guys with 600 HP sure did die alot....
Also a whole lot of posts seem to think lvl 25 Cove is difficult for some reason... Personally I do not think that is is.. But like I said, guys with low HP can do just fine, and guys with high HP can still die with ease.

So which is it? easy or hard?

Doesn't matter IMO, it just shows that HP have little to do with whether the person was dying or not.

One could argue player skill, but my argument is actually that the people who lived could actually take care of themselves, while the people who died couldn't walk out of range of a healer for a second without dying.....

Yes, HP are important. They are part of the overall package.

But IMO, simply knowing how to take care of yourself is a lot more important.

But.... that 300 damage Epic AOE someone mentioned..... will two shot a 600 HP toon....who dumped Dex.

But will not one shot the 300HP toon who has a high Ref save.
And if the guy has evasion....he can take 19 shots of that same AOE spell and live.
And if he has Improved Evasion, he can take....... (I guess it would be 21 shots), before dying.

So which is better against an epic 300 damage AOE spell? High Con or high Dex?

Of course melee damage is a whole different story. But then...there are ways to avoid that too. (agro management being th biggest method)
Cause contrary to popular belief, you don't simply walk into an epic dungeon and take 300 HP of damage/second. (Von6 may be an exception...)

But... once again. I am not saying that HP are not important....they are.
Just not as important as so many forum posters act like they are.

But...f the only way you play this game is Swing, Endure, Heal than yeah......you need some HP.

I'm more than willing to cut new guys some slack but as far as Aggro Management goes, someone will have to take aggro. And he'll have do endure and be healed. It's not fun for Healers to chase Arcane Archers that drew aggro, or a Fighter/Barb that's bouncing around trying to evade blows. And it's not fun to need to overheal because your target can't take the next hit.
HP not only makes your life easier but that of your team mates as well.

There are some ways to up your HP without gimping your damage output/DCs. What's the trouble with learning how to do it and shooting for that specific gear? Even F2P can get a +6 CON item, GFL and a +2 CON tome (even if it will take some time to aquire).

I know that I like my ~400 HP on my wizard just because it helps dampen the occasional lag or aggro shift or in case of CC the pretty frequent crippling effect. And I don't have to sacrifice anything and can still squeeze out some more...

I know that nobody likes being told how to improve their toons, but the people giving advice in this thread don't just make it up either.

[Astraghal]

A lot of ppl are squishy, i seen lvl 20 ppl that got less than 200 HP... O.o?
Some ppl thinks that HP are just for who dunno how to play, this is totally false, the best player of the hystory cannot survive under epic velah with just 200 HP, or under epic queen.
HP makes yur toon more solid and harder to kill, die isn't just annoyng, but is waste of time and mana for ress and rebuff, yu lose ship buffs and stop to DPS for a bit, in some situations like TOD part 2, if yu are kiting shadows, die may become a real problem.

1 example? i can solo-heal epic VON 6 with no pots... if everybody got 500+ HP, but this never appens :/

Sometimes i put up lfm and write 350HP+, sometimes ppl ignore this and join with 200 HP, so i tell em thet we require 350HP+ and kik, they become mad, insult and squelch me... lol? did yu read lfm before to apply?

As veteran i remember that epics and elite end-game raids aren't for fresh and naked lvl 20 toons, start from normal runs and shroud, when yu have enought equip (not just HP) yu can apply for the real end-game.

HP are important, some advices for end game:

Shroud:
arcane 250+
healer 400+
tanker 500+
rest 300+

Non-epic raids on normal:
arcane 300+
healer 450+
tanker 600+
rest 400+

Epic and elite:
arcane 400+
healer 500+
tanker 800+
rest 500+

I agree and it's not about telling people how they should play their toons. I see a direct correlation between low HP and wipes. What really shocked me with the UI change was how many people who are considered competent have borderline low HP. Those were the geared skilled players who could get away with it before, but it's even riskier now. I like the new UI it allows me to make more informed decisions about how I choose to waste my time. :)

P.S. - It all comes down to this. Low HP are fine if you don't make mistakes. People WILL make mistakes. How will you feel about being that guy who made a mistake and caused a raid to wipe and waste 11 other people's time when you chose to gamble on having low HP knowing that it will decrease your overall success rate in the long run?

[Astraghal]

we will assume 14 con base all classes no epic gear allowed using the low HP races Elf, Drow, Halfling, and Half Orc.
10 Draconic
20 Heroic
20 Minos
20 Racial Toughness Enhancement
22 Toughness Feat
30 Greater False Life
45 Green Steel :HP
120 +6 Con Modifier hp (Base+6 item+2 ex Item)

287

d4(80) 367
d6(120) 407
d8(160) 447 (467 Monk)(487 FvS)
d10(240) 527
d12(280) 567

Now everyone can get that +4 tome on normal ToD right so add 40 HP to all and it looks like Barbarian is the only one crossing the 600 barrier, but they have there rage right so they were already there. Even adding a litany and 1 exCon your fighters and paladins are still short.

I shall never count Yugo, Rage, Ship, Store, and other fake HP spells to supplement HP's (this is called buffed)

Superior False Life and Pirate Vitality both come on easily made cove items, I'd include those too.

[Astraghal]

we will assume 14 con base all classes no epic gear allowed using the low HP races Elf, Drow, Halfling, and Half Orc.
10 Draconic
20 Heroic
20 Minos
20 Racial Toughness Enhancement
22 Toughness Feat
30 Greater False Life
45 Green Steel :HP
120 +6 Con Modifier hp (Base+6 item+2 ex Item)

287

d4(80) 367
d6(120) 407
d8(160) 447 (467 Monk)(487 FvS)
d10(240) 527
d12(280) 567

Now everyone can get that +4 tome on normal ToD right so add 40 HP to all and it looks like Barbarian is the only one crossing the 600 barrier, but they have there rage right so they were already there. Even adding a litany and 1 exCon your fighters and paladins are still short.

I shall never count Yugo, Rage, Ship, Store, and other fake HP spells to supplement HP's (this is called buffed)

I have 650 unbuffed HP on my 32-point Dwarf Fighter, I did pick up a +3 CON tome along the way and took about 5 Toughness Feats, but I don't wear a Shroud HP or +2 exceptional CON item. If you're a serious player (assuming access to the packs) and you want HP, they aren't difficult to aquire even on a first life toon. Most of the items are free and simply have to be grinded out.

[loki_3369]

I also prefer melee with 350 hp doing great damage than 700 hp who can hardly hit in epic.

I don't know what 700 hp characters you are playing with that can't hit an epic mob, but if they are having issues it's probably because of gear. Under the same circumstances your favorite 350 hp melee wouldn't be hitting either.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm more than willing to cut new guys some slack but as far as Aggro Management goes, someone will have to take aggro. And he'll have do endure and be healed. It's not fun for Healers to chase Arcane Archers that drew aggro, or a Fighter/Barb that's bouncing around trying to evade blows. And it's not fun to need to overheal because your target can't take the next hit.
HP not only makes your life easier but that of your team mates as well.

There are some ways to up your HP without gimping your damage output/DCs. What's the trouble with learning how to do it and shooting for that specific gear? Even F2P can get a +6 CON item, GFL and a +2 CON tome (even if it will take some time to aquire).

I know that I like my ~400 HP on my wizard just because it helps dampen the occasional lag or aggro shift or in case of CC the pretty frequent crippling effect. And I don't have to sacrifice anything and can still squeeze out some more...

I know that nobody likes being told how to improve their toons, but the people giving advice in this thread don't just make it up either.

I think I am going to start telling people that the first step toward surviving with less HP is to learn to live without a Healer.





And I'll be the first to admit that my "agro management" usually means letting someone else get agro for me.
(but that is why we have all those high HP fanatics around...they are quite happy to take agro for me...)

[gloopygloop]

I think I am going to start telling people that the first step toward surviving with less HP is to learn to live without a Healer.


Can we turn this thread into a "No, you don't need a healer for that quest!" thread or do we need to start a new thread for that argument?

[Lord_Thanatos]

Superior False Life and Pirate Vitality both come on easily made cove items, I'd include those too.

And for the new players that join the game after cove has ended...?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Can we turn this thread into a "No, you don't need a healer for that quest!" thread or do we need to start a new thread for that argument?

Well, my point of view is that there is a direct relation to being self-sufficent, and being able to survive with less HP than most people recomend.

It's hard to explain, but I have seen many players (including myself) do just fine with 300 HP (or even less) who are also willing to go with the first five into just about any quest....

And I have seen a whole lot of 600 HP guys insist they need a healer to do anything... plus those same 600 HP guys seem to not ever carry a single healing pot as well.

I think it says something about the mindset of the players...

Also a very common arguement about needing high HP comes from Clerics who always talk about having to go out of their way to keep some squishy alive. Yet I see the people who can survive with low HP toons never need healing to begin with.

Related to this is that I drink pots between battles....so I can begin every fight at ful strength.
Yet the guy with twice my HP will charge into the next room with only half his HP..... so he must be able to survive with the same amount as me....cause he sure isn't worried about actually having more than me when he starts a fight!

All of this tells me that learning to take care of yourself without a healer, is related to learning how to survive with less HP.

[Mikula]

I suppose this is as good a place as any to ask this. I am curious whether my Bard build is broken. I have been playing casually for a long time and am a bit of an altaholic so this is my first toon on higher levels. I am a Bard spell singer healing focused and unbuffed I have around 260 hp. When all my buffs are on I get up to 300 but that is mostly temp hp. I have 14 con and do not own the necro pack so no helm.

[Llewndyn]

/checks under shoe

Nope, must be this thread.

[Llewndyn]

I'm F2P and got 557 HP unbuffed on my FvS and it is just a 2nd ary toon, 1st life, sometimes yu met ppl without con +6 random generated item... is hard to go on AH and spend 5k pp for that?
Sure yu need to grind a bit to make a good toon, but epic and elite aren't for all, they need to be filtered.

Is a simple concept: why a player that grinded a loot to equip him toon must be considered as another one that never cared the game?

And I SINCERELY don't want anyone thinking I am making fun of someone who is posting in a secondary language, because that automatically makes you smarter than me, but does anyone else read posts like these as the Sheriff of Rottingham in RobinHood, Men in Tights? Try doing it without laughing, Not possible.

"Through forest wild, boar illegal it king, you in kill don't a is!"

[Battery]

Epic and elite:
rest 600+

no really? non tank classes expected to have 600? a bit high I think

[gloopygloop]

Well, my point of view is that there is a direct relation to being self-sufficent, and being able to survive with less HP than most people recomend.

It's hard to explain, but I have seen many players (including myself) do just fine with 300 HP (or even less) who are also willing to go with the first five into just about any quest....

And I have seen a whole lot of 600 HP guys insist they need a healer to do anything... plus those same 600 HP guys seem to not ever carry a single healing pot as well.

I think it says something about the mindset of the players...

Also a very common arguement about needing high HP comes from Clerics who always talk about having to go out of their way to keep some squishy alive. Yet I see the people who can survive with low HP toons never need healing to begin with.

Related to this is that I drink pots between battles....so I can begin every fight at ful strength.
Yet the guy with twice my HP will charge into the next room with only half his HP..... so he must be able to survive with the same amount as me....cause he sure isn't worried about actually having more than me when he starts a fight!

All of this tells me that learning to take care of yourself without a healer, is related to learning how to survive with less HP.

I agree with that. Also, "you don't need a healer for that quest" arguments are tons of fun.

[Aashrym]

I have 650 unbuffed HP on my 32-point Dwarf Fighter, I did pick up a +3 CON tome along the way and took about 5 Toughness Feats, but I don't wear a Shroud HP or +2 exceptional CON item. If you're a serious player (assuming access to the packs) and you want HP, they aren't difficult to aquire even on a first life toon. Most of the items are free and simply have to be grinded out.

It's pretty unrealistic to expect players to have access to 5 feats they can spend on toughness or to play 1 of 2 races with CON bonuses. It's also unrealistic to expect exceptional CON or shroud HP items before actually running the Shroud for those players.

Most items do simply need to be found during the grind but how does a player grind it out when other players are claiming they don't have the hp to run that content in the first player to grind out the gear and get the hp?

Too many players look at what a level 20 has in gear and hp to determine what is required. Looking at what the potential is does not make a good argument for what is needed.

[countfitz]

Agree with the OP except for a few minor details. A healer "can" run with less HP if he stays back and healbots, (but would be better if he could do something else) and any class split with 2 levels of monk or rogue can be much "squishier" with evasion, but for the most part this is fine for PUGs.

The people who are arguing against him are not taking PUGing into account right now. Yes, player skill matters, but how do we know how skilled a player is? As a player who PUGs 95% of my raids and epics, usually as a healer, I know what is up with "most" players with less HP than the OP was suggesting. They aren't able to survive. Which is fine as long as they don't grief about it "oh you let me die" etc., but with the changes in U11, healers can't function like we used to, healing a raid takes too much to chance it.

Personally, I will just let a group fail in a raid if they don't have around what the OP suggests. I'll still group with them, and give them the benefit of the doubt that they are good players and have a reason to have low HP, but if that turns out to be naieve, then they die, I don't chug pots. If, on the other hand, it's my fault (they have enough HP and DR breakers) then I'll chug pots. I've never chugged pots by the way, because if they have enough HP, I don't need to. But I'd be willing to.

[gloopygloop]

It's pretty unrealistic to expect players to have access to 5 feats they can spend on toughness or to play 1 of 2 races with CON bonuses. It's also unrealistic to expect exceptional CON or shroud HP items before actually running the Shroud for those players.

Most items do simply need to be found during the grind but how does a player grind it out when other players are claiming they don't have the hp to run that content in the first player to grind out the gear and get the hp?

Too many players look at what a level 20 has in gear and hp to determine what is required. Looking at what the potential is does not make a good argument for what is needed.


Most players aren't claiming that the new players don't have the HP to run that content in the first place outside of very specific raids and most of the HP gear doesn't need to be obtained from those very specific raids.

+6 Con and GFL is 90 HP just by itself. +4 Con and Improved False Life is 60 HP just by itself and is really danged cheap to acquire.

Even at level 17, you can *easily* have
20 base
d4/6/8/10 hit dice x17 = 68 to 204
14 Con + 4 Con item x17 = 68
Improved False Life = 20
Toughness = 17
two tiers of Toughness enhancements = 20
Total with close to no gear overall and ABSOULTELY no level-appropriate gear = 213 to 349 HP


...but I still see all sorts of people wandering around at level 20 with less than 200 HP on Rogues, Rangers, Clerics, etc.

That's not a failure to acquire gear. That's an active choice to disregard HP as a part of character building.

[countfitz]

Another issue, more on the advice side now (assuming the OP to be correct but not very helpful...)

Players shouldn't assume that, because they are level ___ they can now be running that level of raid. That is their level, and they should be doing quests a level or so around it, but raiding is not the same.

I know, I know, "but back when the cap was 16 we were all doing elite Shroud" etc. etc.

Your level 16 had been level 16 for ages, and had accumulated all the gear a capped character has today to do epics. Not an argument.

What I'm saying is, newer players shouldn't be joining Shroud PUGS at level 17 because it is level 17, but should be joining when they're ready. What makes them ready? Having found a DR breaker, 2-3 +6 items, one of which must be for Con, the other must be for their primary stat, and finally having grinded for their Minos. If they don't own that pack, they need to get it. Minos is too important not to have: 1 slot, 2 of the most important effects. Now, there are other options with the Tharak bracers and a heavy fort slotted somewhere else (my wife's toon does this) but for the casual player, who isn't obsessed with fashion (my wife hates the look of the helm on her) Minos is the way to go.

Finally, we've really let the newbs (not noobs, they focus TOO much on this) get away with not having DR breakers. It used to be THE thing we would discuss, and now, after U11, when they're so important, and after crafting has made them so easy to get, we are seeing (at least I am) entire Shroud runs without a single DR breaker.

And to answer the point for everyone obsessed with defending new players, who would have to "gimp" their 28 point toon, new players shouldn't be making 28 point toons of certain classes. To bad there isn't a disclaimer for Monks and Paladins "This toon is MAD, you are going to be mad if you make him with a 28 point build and no access to +2 tomes!"

New players should stick to classes that require less stat points. THF barbs and fighters, clerics, wizards and sorcs, and have fun. They're good classes that can do really well with 28 points. Primary stat, max. Con, max. Everything else dumped. And you've got a functional character. (Hyperbole, btw).

[Aashrym]

Most players aren't claiming that the new players don't have the HP to run that content in the first place outside of very specific raids and most of the HP gear doesn't need to be obtained from those very specific raids.

+6 Con and GFL is 90 HP just by itself. +4 Con and Improved False Life is 60 HP just by itself and is really danged cheap to acquire.

Even at level 17, you can *easily* have
20 base
d4/6/8/10 hit dice x17 = 68 to 204
14 Con + 4 Con item x17 = 68
Improved False Life = 20
Toughness = 17
two tiers of Toughness enhancements = 20
Total with close to no gear overall and ABSOULTELY no level-appropriate gear = 213 to 349 HP


...but I still see all sorts of people wandering around at level 20 with less than 200 HP on Rogues, Rangers, Clerics, etc.

That's not a failure to acquire gear. That's an active choice to disregard HP as a part of character building.

Those numbers are less than the OP posted for Shroud and is appropriate for 17th level, which tend to back up what I said about unrealistic expectations. What is possible is not the same as what is realistic or what is necessary.

I'm not saying dump CON and hit points are not important because they are. What I am saying is some of the numbers people spout are simply too high of an expectation.

Most classes are certainly not taking 5 toughness feats and I would argue that any content should force a player to take it because that defeats the purpose of providing that choice in the first place. 1 toughness feat is definitely a recommendation but I would not state to anyone it is a requirement. Just another source for hit points to meet the goal.

The hit point goal is what it takes to survive, not a basis on what is possible.

[NytCrawlr]

HP are important, some advices for end game:

Shroud:
tanker 500+

:rolleyes:

Unless they change the tactics of Harry, no real tanker required.

Unless you consider 4+ melees surrounding and beating on him while the fool stands there, tanking, then sure.

[gloopygloop]

Those numbers are less than the OP posted for Shroud and is appropriate for 17th level, which tend to back up what I said about unrealistic expectations. What is possible is not the same as what is realistic or what is necessary.


My numbers were for a severely undergeared first time player who only just reached level 17. That player is not ready for end game content.

Once you are actually ready for end game content (as a player that will contribute and not just pike), one of the things that you will have is 3 more levels of HP and a few assorted items that are better than/in addition to the items listed there.

I do believe that some of the HP "suggestions" are higher than they need to be, but I also believe that a lot of players think that they should be accepted into every Epic quest and raid immediately as soon as they hit level 20 even though they still don't know their ass from their elbow in DDO and they are missing enough gear that they'll end up whiffing on important enemies, failing DC checks, allowing enemies to consistantly save against their spells and generally not contributing to the success of the quest or raid.

HP is certainly not the only thing that players need to plan for to run through end game content, but it's absoultely an indicator.

[Doxmaster]

I don't really think skill/HP is an Either/Or thing. Sure, some people expect insane numbers, but having a reasonable amount for a quest level typically isnt that high of a demand. Nor is knowing basics( and in some cases, higher amounts) about quests, game mechanics, etc.

A +6 con item, and least 12 con(classes with 8-12 hit die), 14 con(6 to 8 hit die), or 16(4 to 6 hit die) and toughness feat alongside knowing what you are doing is all I ask for at level 20.

100 HP on a player than is 3 twitches away from accidentally hacking the game with QWSE is all good and well until splash damage from something that shouldn't really be a threat takes them out. Then he becomes as useless as the guy with 1000 hp that still cant figure out why his pure, max int barbarian cant cast spells.

[gloopygloop]

100 HP on a player than is 3 twitches away from accidentally hacking the game with QWSE is all good and well until splash from something that shouldn't really be a threat damage takes them out. Then he becomes as useless as the guy with 1000 hp that still cant figure out why his pure, max int barbarian cant cast spells.

It's because he's raging. A Bbn 20 can't cast spells with his blue bar unless he dismisses his rage first.

(was I right?)

[Aashrym]

My numbers were for a severely undergeared first time player who only just reached level 17. That player is not ready for end game content.

Once you are actually ready for end game content (as a player that will contribute and not just pike), one of the things that you will have is 3 more levels of HP and a few assorted items that are better than/in addition to the items listed there.

I do believe that some of the HP "suggestions" are higher than they need to be, but I also believe that a lot of players think that they should be accepted into every Epic quest and raid immediately as soon as they hit level 20 even though they still don't know their ass from their elbow in DDO and they are missing enough gear that they'll end up whiffing on important enemies, failing DC checks, allowing enemies to consistantly save against their spells and generally not contributing to the success of the quest or raid.

HP is certainly not the only thing that players need to plan for to run through end game content, but it's absoultely an indicator.

Shroud is not end game content and it's not like back when the level caps were lower and all players could do was run more gear. If I were to have a 17th level character and he is not allowed into the shroud with a group because his hit points don't meet the general expectations he would continue running content and grinding gear but he's not about to sit there and lose XP for not leveling while banking XP. That's the difference between now and when shroud was end game.

Characters out-level content on first lives before they can grind gear because XP are easy on a first life but drop rates can still be low and AH prices can still be beyond some players' reach.

That turns into a situation designed to fail because player would not be able to play level appropriate content based on the perception of what their hit points should be by other players. That's just plain silly.

Realistically running shroud on normal to get GS items, including hit points, does not take the hit points listed in the OP. The hit points you listed earlier will work. Going with a +6 CON item over a +4 CON item and GFL item over an IFL item is not a big jump over what you listed for severely under-geared and still doesn't get to what the OP listed.

A capped character is a bit different tho. This gets back to previous level caps where all the player does is either work on TR'ing or is grinding gear. That player should be taking a harder look at the gear requirements on level 20 content and epic content. That's when it might be appropriate to grind more shrouds or work on yugo favor, for example.

That still woudn't stop them from running easier epics while they grind that gear out. I agree that players mention higher numbers than required. I also agree that players need to be realistic when looking at a minimum required. That is a two way street.

Either way I'm not taking 5 toughness feats on any of my characters. ;)

[gloopygloop]

That turns into a situation designed to fail because player would not be able to play level appropriate content based on the perception of what their hit points should be by other players. That's just plain silly.

...and in game, I do not see this happening except in extreme cases (less than 200 HP on a Rogue or Ranger at cap, less than 400 HP on a Barbiaran *while in the quest* at cap, etc).

[Aashrym]

I don't really think skill/HP is an Either/Or thing. Sure, some people expect insane numbers, but having a reasonable amount for a quest level typically isnt that high of a demand. Nor is knowing basics( and in some cases, higher amounts) about quests, game mechanics, etc.

A +6 con item, and least 12 con(classes with 8-12 hit die), 14 con(6 to 8 hit die), or 16(4 to 6 hit die) and toughness feat alongside knowing what you are doing is all I ask for at level 20.

100 HP on a player than is 3 twitches away from accidentally hacking the game with QWSE is all good and well until splash damage from something that shouldn't really be a threat takes them out. Then he becomes as useless as the guy with 1000 hp that still cant figure out why his pure, max int barbarian cant cast spells.

100 hp on any level 20 character would be a big fat ouch. Some players need to be realistic on what they can or can't avoid too. ;)

[etelan]

What really shocked me with the UI change was how many people who are considered competent have borderline low HP.

Not that I would recommend it, but I frequently tanked Epic Chrono with 405hp (half of the OP suggested) and had some good success :) Now if only I had a way to get improved evasion on a ranger.

[Aashrym]

...and in game, I do not see this happening except in extreme cases (less than 200 HP on a Rogue or Ranger at cap, less than 400 HP on a Barbiaran *while in the quest* at cap, etc).

I see players hit cap before they have all the hp gear ppl list. I was one of them on several characters because the reality is that it doesn't take long to cap a character on a first life who is trying to cap that character. I cap a first life character before I can grind a tier III GS item because of the 3 day timer if that is my only character running shroud.

The only difference is that now it's easier for players to see what other players really have and have been successful with instead of theory crafting what is needed.

Like I said in my previous post the difference between a +6 CON item and GFL over a +4 CON item and IFL is a small amount and still not up to the numbers listed. At level 17 we're talking 27 more hp between your severely under-geared player and what was stated as easy to obtain.

Adding that and a toughness item still doesn't place those players in the range listed in the OP. ;)

[Aashrym]

Not that I would recommend it, but I frequently tanked Epic Chrono with 405hp (half of the OP suggested) and had some good success :) Now if only I had a way to get improved evasion on a ranger.

You do. Splash. Deep. :D

[gloopygloop]

I see players hit cap before they have all the hp gear ppl list. I was one of them on several characters because the reality is that it doesn't take long to cap a character on a first life who is trying to cap that character. I cap a first life character before I can grind a tier III GS item because of the 3 day timer if that is my only character running shroud.

The only difference is that now it's easier for players to see what other players really have and have been successful with instead of theory crafting what is needed.

Like I said in my previous post the difference between a +6 CON item and GFL over a +4 CON item and IFL is a small amount and still not up to the numbers listed. At level 17 we're talking 27 more hp between your severely under-geared player and what was stated as easy to obtain.

Adding that and a toughness item still doesn't place those players in the range listed in the OP. ;)

My point is that the numbers listed in the forums (as targets for what players should reasonably be striving to eventually attain) is not the same as what parties are demanding as entry requirements for raids/epics/epic raids.

As long as someone doesn't completely embarass themselves with their displayed HP, I haven't seen it be a problem for people after the first week.

As long as you're not running around with under 200 HP as a "back of the party" character and less than 350 "front of the party character", then there really isn't any issue with being booted or griefed for anything outside of eDQ, eVoN6 and ToD. And if you're below 200 HP/350 HP for those two categories, then you're *actively* trying to avoid HP on your character.

The OP is not what people are actually requiring in-game.

[Aashrym]

My point is that the numbers listed in the forums (as targets for what players should reasonably be striving to eventually attain) is not the same as what parties are demanding as entry requirements for raids/epics/epic raids.

As long as someone doesn't completely embarass themselves with their displayed HP, I haven't seen it be a problem for people after the first week.

As long as you're not running around with under 200 HP as a "back of the party" character and less than 350 "front of the party character", then there really isn't any issue with being booted or griefed for anything outside of eDQ, eVoN6 and ToD. And if you're below 200 HP/350 HP for those two categories, then you're *actively* trying to avoid HP on your character.

The OP is not what people are actually requiring in-game.

That's what I mean by the content and my comments on level 20 grinding to prepare for epics and actual end game content. I think the best comment I saw on that was just because someone is level 20 doesn't mean he's ready for everything.

What I look at and disagree with is the inflated expectations earlier but I would still remind players that "I'm skilled" will only go so far.

[Astraghal]

Not that I would recommend it, but I frequently tanked Epic Chrono with 405hp (half of the OP suggested) and had some good success :) Now if only I had a way to get improved evasion on a ranger.

405 total HP? That seems risky even on an evasion toon if I understand correctly. I tank it in Firestorm Greaves with ~800 HP keeping Cloak of Ice up when he's in fire mode. I still dodge fire and ice but the HP and gear are a precaution, but having decently high HP have saved me many times. HP are a buffer against all damage so they are quite an economical way for any character to mitigate death.

[Astraghal]

It's pretty unrealistic to expect players to have access to 5 feats they can spend on toughness or to play 1 of 2 races with CON bonuses. It's also unrealistic to expect exceptional CON or shroud HP items before actually running the Shroud for those players.

Most items do simply need to be found during the grind but how does a player grind it out when other players are claiming they don't have the hp to run that content in the first player to grind out the gear and get the hp?

Too many players look at what a level 20 has in gear and hp to determine what is required. Looking at what the potential is does not make a good argument for what is needed.

The reason I took multiple Toughness feats was to free up gear slots. I could fit in better effects by using feats for HP rather than items. I think 600 unbuffed HP isn't an unreasonable expectation from a first life melee looking to get into the more difficult raids, normal Shroud requires less.

Outside of Toughness feats, most of the stuff you need for high HP comes in easily aquired vendor trash or easily solo'd on casual end reward variety. A tierII shroud HP item wouldn't take long or be very expensive to craft. People have to be willing to make getting HP a priority though, not something that's nice when it comes along.

It comes down to whatever gets the easiest and most efficient completions in the end I guess, but most of the good players I know already had u11 HP before u9.

[Aashrym]

The reason I took multiple Toughness feats was to free up gear slots. I could fit in better effects by using feats for HP rather than items. I think 600 unbuffed HP isn't an unreasonable expectation from a first life melee looking to get into the more difficult raids, normal Shroud requires less.

Outside of Toughness feats, most of the stuff you need for high HP comes in easily aquired vendor trash or easily solo'd on casual end reward variety. A tierII shroud HP item wouldn't take long or be very expensive to craft. People have to be willing to make getting HP a priority though, not something that's nice when it comes along.

It comes down to whatever gets the easiest and most efficient completions in the end I guess, but most of the good players I know already had u11 HP before u9.

So what are you doing to get your HP above 800 per the OP? You don't meet the threshold provided on your dwarf with 5 toughness feats. ;)

Different people seem to have different ideas on what is needed but some of those numbers are unrealistic and I would agree that 600 is more realistic for some of the end game raids.

[joaofalcao]

Er, yes, why wouldnt I hug harry? Not seeing a reason not to. Aura + Burst + Trusting me more not to back out like an idiot.

I was talking about a PUG spot, not specifically you. Funny you ask tough, I did a shroud today with another 400 HP cleric and he died. Almost sure he lagged or something. It happens.

Good thing I wasnt hugging harry, did not die, and could rezz him.

[Astraghal]

So what are you doing to get your HP above 800 per the OP? You don't meet the threshold provided on your dwarf with 5 toughness feats. ;)

Different people seem to have different ideas on what is needed but some of those numbers are unrealistic and I would agree that 600 is more realistic for some of the end game raids.

I don't necessarily agree with the OP but for the sake of the excercise:

650 unbuffed
695 shroud HP goggles
715 ship buff
735 rage
775 yugoloth
815 madstone
835 +2 exceptional CON item
845 greater stalwart trinket

Separate from the OP, I always pushed for ~800 while tanking baddies like Horoth. I often swap in Pale Lavender to use a Madstone clicky in the Horoth fight when my last Madstone rage expires.

[etelan]

405 total HP? That seems risky even on an evasion toon if I understand correctly.

:) Death by fire is extremely rare. The majority of the time dodging is a not a problem, but a 45 reflex save as a backup works well. The only thing which I find dangerous at low HP is the meteor swarms in fire form. To be honest though I always pop on some heavy hp buffs to get past 500 hp. Still a long way from 800. Oh, the uphill battles of a drow.

[Ziindarax]

we will assume 14 con base all classes no epic gear allowed using the low HP races Elf, Drow, Halfling, and Half Orc.
10 Draconic
20 Heroic
20 Minos
20 Racial Toughness Enhancement
22 Toughness Feat
30 Greater False Life
45 Green Steel :HP
120 +6 Con Modifier hp (Base+6 item+2 ex Item)

287

d4(80) 367
d6(120) 407
d8(160) 447 (467 Monk)(487 FvS)
d10(240) 527
d12(280) 567

Now everyone can get that +4 tome on normal ToD right so add 40 HP to all and it looks like Barbarian is the only one crossing the 600 barrier, but they have there rage right so they were already there. Even adding a litany and 1 exCon your fighters and paladins are still short.

I shall never count Yugo, Rage, Ship, Store, and other fake HP spells to supplement HP's (this is called buffed)

I never factor store buffs because not everyone wants to blow their income on paying to win.

As for ship buffs, it varies from guild to guild, making it an unreliable form of buffing. (One party with the highest guild level could have the best ship and buffs in the game, while the next would either have an "average" or even "poor" quality ship buffs.)

Madstone "double" rage is a myth; unless you're going all off at a boss fight, you only have one charge of madstone rage to use before you get the second madstone proc, and barb rage is not accessible to everyone of every class (though rage potions and scrolls are).

As for yugo pots, I never factor those into the viability of a build because getting the favor necessary to unlock the privilege of buying them is something 90% of players on DDO cannot do (it takes more than skill, it takes min-maxing and plenty of epic-loot. On top of that, unless you are an arcane/divine, you would also need a party of "min-maxers" with plenty of epic items to pull it off. Even then, it may still not be enough, as scaling can make the bosses brutal). The few players who do unlock the yugoloth potions (and aren't haggle bots/scroll farmers) quickly realize the costs of the yugoloth potions are prohibitively high. 100 potions (excluding a high haggle skill) will cost you no less than 100,000 platinum. That being said, if I see yugo pots posted in a build, I will ignore it because they simply are not sustainable (to get more of them, you'd have to get back to the point where you can attempt to grind for favor, and to have a respectable stockpile, it will cost you a fortune).

[Allorian]

Well in epics ya gotta have Hp's. All my capped melee's have aver 650 Hp's even my 1st Life Horc Blitz Build has 661 and with a +3 con tome will have 681 unbuffed and can get over 841 Buffed and raging. Lemme break down my Blitz build Human that has 803 Hp's unbuffed, oh and he has really good DPS as well as good saves and can get a 45 reflex buffed with evasion.

Starting con 14, +2 con tome, +3 to con from Ap's spent(2 BBN and 1 Human Adaptability), +7 Item (E.Envenomed Cloak), +3 Exceptional Con(TOD ring), +3 Epic Abishai Set(5 piece) = 32 unbuffed con. It has taken some time and effort but was worth it. my only dump stat is cha but still can get a 46 UMD and a 60 Intim (Kensaii). Also 7 toughnesses (154), Bbn Past life (30 Hp's), Greater false Life (30), Shroud H.P Item (45), Agent of Argonesen Fvr (10), Ftr-12 (120), Bbn-6 (72), Rouge-2 (12), 32 con (220), Toughess Item (E.Belt of Mronan 20), Ftr Toughness IV (40), Human Toughness III (30), Heroic Durability (20 Strtng) = 803. This guy is a TR but I had 751 Hp's on 1st life anyway with Good DPS. You can have both high Hp's and good DPS on your toon and have some Bells and whistles as well. Oh and Buffed and raging he can get 983 Hps. I have been in parties with guys who can get over 1000 Hps' easy, take a bow Bjx, Planet terror!

I am not posting this to say look at me but rather, well if he can do it...and I'm telling if I can, anyone can, lol.


Have a good one guys
Glam/Choh/Juggernautte of Sarlonas Midnight Guardians

[Astraghal]

I never factor store buffs because not everyone wants to blow their income on paying to win.

As for ship buffs, it varies from guild to guild, making it an unreliable form of buffing. (One party with the highest guild level could have the best ship and buffs in the game, while the next would either have an "average" or even "poor" quality ship buffs.)

Madstone "double" rage is a myth; unless you're going all off at a boss fight, you only have one charge of madstone rage to use before you get the second madstone proc, and barb rage is not accessible to everyone of every class (though rage potions and scrolls are).

As for yugo pots, I never factor those into the viability of a build because getting the favor necessary to unlock the privilege of buying them is something 90% of players on DDO cannot do (it takes more than skill, it takes min-maxing and plenty of epic-loot. On top of that, unless you are an arcane/divine, you would also need a party of "min-maxers" with plenty of epic items to pull it off. Even then, it may still not be enough, as scaling can make the bosses brutal). The few players who do unlock the yugoloth potions (and aren't haggle bots/scroll farmers) quickly realize the costs of the yugoloth potions are prohibitively high. 100 potions (excluding a high haggle skill) will cost you no less than 100,000 platinum. That being said, if I see yugo pots posted in a build, I will ignore it because they simply are not sustainable (to get more of them, you'd have to get back to the point where you can attempt to grind for favor, and to have a respectable stockpile, it will cost you a fortune).

I think you're exaggerating the difficutly a bit. Getting enough favor for extra HP, Silver Flame Pots and Yugoloth favor isn't that hard, but it takes time and effort. I rarely see Silver Flame capable melee at endgame, just like I rarely see any tactical feats being used. It's more down to laziness and small-mindedness, those who really want to be team players will make sure they have what they need to succeed.

Also, you can be double Madstoned for the first few minutes of a boss fight at least. I don't think most fights last much longer, but you can always swap out the boots after the first clicky and proc have expired and use a second clicky and get another proc straight away.

Yugoloth potions are useful to any non-melee class in almost every situation because the only drawback is -5% DPS, even most cases where a melee wants those extra HP it's a small price to pay. They last 15 minutes and you really don't need them for every encounter, just for raids and Epic bosses mostly.

Once you start getting completions the flow of loot is more than you end up spending on consumables by a fair margin. Any new player expecting to accumulate some wealth in the game should set aside some daily AH time. You can make a lot from selling junk at fair prices on there.

When you buy consumables buy in bulk for the best price, get some CHA and Haggle gear, ship buff, Yugoloth potion etc. and use them before you buy. You might get 10's of percentage discount.

[Astraghal]

:) Death by fire is extremely rare. The majority of the time dodging is a not a problem, but a 45 reflex save as a backup works well. The only thing which I find dangerous at low HP is the meteor swarms in fire form. To be honest though I always pop on some heavy hp buffs to get past 500 hp. Still a long way from 800. Oh, the uphill battles of a drow.

My biggest problem in there is that casters don't cast Break Enchantment in there and I end up standing on 6 stacked firewalls/clouds and am completely unable to see what form the CAD is taking. In most groups moving him isn't an option through (moving a raid boss in a PuG has a high clusterf%#@k factor), so having the HP and gear really just makes navigating these glaring potential wipes that threaten PuG raids a possibility.

[GermanicusMaximus]

If surviving in Crystal Cove is how you rate players, then you need to raise your standards.

LMAO. You have seen all the crying threads about melee being totally unable to function in Cove on CR 25, haven't you?

I agree its ridiculous, but it does illustrate the level to which some people are completely unable to play their toons.

[GermanicusMaximus]

And yet another thread that shows how poorly designed DDO is. =/

A d4 base HP class can reach 600HP.

No wonder why "Caster only" LFMs are spreading like a terminal decease as of late.

"Caster only" LFMs are proliferating because

1) Arcanes have the best DPS in this game by a mile.

2) Instead of just healing people, divines get a chance to pull out the rest of their spell book and blast away.

3) Far too many melee toons are crafted with too few HPs, especially for epic raids.

4) Too many melee toons think that Improved Evasion is still capable of fixing (3) in epic raids.

5) Just about every caster, divine and arcane, is self healing.

6) Pot usage is minimal or non-existent without waiting forever for the LFM to fill.

7) The entire atmosphere is different. I can't remember anyone ever whining or complaining in an all caster group.

Melee could do a lot the alter the balance here. Crafting toons with a minimum of 500 HPs for epic raids and tossing healers some pots would make a huge difference.

With Update 11, Turbine intentionally changed how the game is played at the very top level. I'm not a big fan of the changes, but I will adapt to what Turbine is telling me to do.

[ainmosni]

fooooooooooooooobanana!



removed, nvm

[Aashrym]

I don't necessarily agree with the OP but for the sake of the excercise:

650 unbuffed
695 shroud HP goggles
715 ship buff
735 rage
775 yugoloth
815 madstone
835 +2 exceptional CON item
845 greater stalwart trinket

Separate from the OP, I always pushed for ~800 while tanking baddies like Horoth. I often swap in Pale Lavender to use a Madstone clicky in the Horoth fight when my last Madstone rage expires.

That's 5 toughness feats, CON race, ship buffs (not necessarily available). Take off 80 hit points for the additional 4 toughness feats and we're back to below 800 hit points. My next question would be do you think you need 800 hit point for all epics or elite raids at the end game?

I don't thing anyone should have the ability to just run all content just because they feel entitled without putting in the time to meet the requirements. My stance the entire time has been that those requires need to be realistic for the content and ability to achieve.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

"Caster only" LFMs are proliferating because

1) Arcanes have the best DPS in this game by a mile.

2) Instead of just healing people, divines get a chance to pull out the rest of their spell book and blast away.

3) Far too many melee toons are crafted with too few HPs, especially for epic raids.

4) Too many melee toons think that Improved Evasion is still capable of fixing (3) in epic raids.

5) Just about every caster, divine and arcane, is self healing.

6) Pot usage is minimal or non-existent without waiting forever for the LFM to fill.

7) The entire atmosphere is different. I can't remember anyone ever whining or complaining in an all caster group.

Melee could do a lot the alter the balance here. Crafting toons with a minimum of 500 HPs for epic raids and tossing healers some pots would make a huge difference.

With Update 11, Turbine intentionally changed how the game is played at the very top level. I'm not a big fan of the changes, but I will adapt to what Turbine is telling me to do.

While I don't agre with everything I really like number 7! :cool: