Dwarf Warchanter/Battle Eng

[Nagashizzar]

I am recently returning to DDO and found that all my old characters have been nerfed/changed with all the changes since I've been away, hence I am planning a new hero.

I am thinking a Dwarf Warchanter using Dwarf axe and runearm, combined with the battle eng for the +2's to crit, confirming and enchant on weapon, as well as elemental damage, insightful damage (hence the high int) and insightful reflex's, and runearm procs on main hand weapon.

I am not aware of all the changes and have been trying to catchup, but as I understand I should get glancing hit using a dwarf axe runearm combo, which also have a chance to proc mainhand enchants etc and therefore i would assume runearm procs as well

Please spot any glaring mistakes or suggest improvements, or feats I really need, it would also be appreciated for any recommendations for spell to take. Many thanks:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(14 Bard \ 6 Artificer)
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 810
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 9
Reflex: 20
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 19
Dexterity 10 10
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 18 28
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 28
Bluff -2 -2
Concentration 6 26
Diplomacy -2 -2
Disable Device 8 32
Haggle -2 -2
Heal -1 -1
Hide 0 0
Intimidate -2 2
Jump 5 23
Listen -1 -1
Move Silently 2 24
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a 21
Repair 4 9
Search 8 32
Spot -1 -1
Swim 4 7.5
Tumble 1 1
Use Magic Device 2 21

Level 1 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I


Level 2 (Artificer)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence I


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 4 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 5 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II


Level 8 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I


Level 9 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II


Level 10 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II


Level 11 (Artificer)
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I


Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Artificer Intelligence II


Level 13 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II


Level 14 (Bard)
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song III


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 16 (Bard)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III


Level 17 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
Enhancement: Dwarven Waraxe Training


Level 19 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III

[Nagashizzar]

No comments or thoughts at all??

Does anyone know if I will be able to cast bard spells with such low charisma, will it use the artificer int score to cast as starting as artifcer, or will it also require boosts in charisma??

If so whats the best way to acheive these whilst still using it as a dump stat?

[mahiro37]

Level 1 Bard spells require an 11 charisma, so unless you boost it, you won't be casting Bard spells.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

[markusthelion]

No experience with artificer yet, but a Dwarf of any class is my favorite ;)

[Nagashizzar]

I have moved the 2 points I had in dex to Char, this shoul mean that with gear, ship buffs etc I should hit 16, which will be enough to cast the bard lvl 5 spells I have.

Any other thoughtsor specific gear recommendations

[honkuimushi]

I would probably drop Dex to 8 and Int to 16 and put the rest in Con and Chr. Then put levelups in Str. Dex does nothing for you. Your reflex save will be based on your Int and you won't have a viable AC. Bard spellcasting uses Chr, even if multiclassed, so you'll need a Chr of 15 to cast 5th level spells. You can use items and enhancements, but if you take 3 Bard Chr enhancements and have a +6 item, that will leave you with a 13 Chr. You'd need ship buffs, an exceptional Chr item or an alchemical pot just to cast your spells. That would suck if you ever died or did a long quest, or even just did a Shroud.

Int isn't really a huge factor in this build. You use it for infusions, but you only get 3rd level infusions, which requires a 13 Int. You won't be casting many offensive infusions so your DC should be moot. You need it for Reflex saves, but the extra 3 or 4 points shouldn't make or break this character. It's nice for skills and trapping,
but it's not worth 6 build points for an 18 and level up points. And since Insightful Strikes and Insightful Damage are mutually exclusive and replace Str instead of adding to it, you won't really want to use them on your axes. You could get improvements to both to hot and damage by going Str based or you could get bonuses to 1, if you cast the spell, by going Int based. You will probably use Insightful Strikes mostly on your crossbows when you want to range something so you can actually hit. That +4 tome is probably out of reach for you as well unless you got very lucky somewhere and there is no way you can use it at level 7.

So I would try something like this:
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 8
Chr 12

Level ups go to Str.



I would start Bard because they get 6 skill points per level and that would give you 8 more skill points than starting as an Artificer. I would also move Insightful Reflexes up to level 3 and take Power Attack at level 9. You won't use it much before then and it only delays Warchanter by one level. Finally, I would move Improved Critical up as far as I could. That should add more damage than the　THF line.

Enhancements are debatable and easily reset, but I don't think I would spend many APs on extra songs or Spell Defense. Instead I would be sure to get the Racial Con, Bard Chr, Artificer UMD and Bard Wand and scroll enhancements. That's in addition to maxing out your song and getting your PrEs.

Overall I think it's a solid concept and the level splits are good, but I think these changes would make a stronger build. I wish there was some way to get Evasion, but any other other split and things kind of fall apart.

[hecate355]

i kinda fail to see point in such combination of classes

did you think in advance, what exactly should those 6 multiclass levels add to the build? right now i only see moderately useful corssbow ranged option.

[hecate355]

let me put it this way, you have very high int but you get very little out of it, i dont see a synergy.

[honkuimushi]

i kinda fail to see point in such combination of classes

did you think in advance, what exactly should those 6 multiclass levels add to the build? right now i only see moderately useful corssbow ranged option.

You have a very nice support character. You have a better song than any but a pure Warchanter. (Which aren't that common.) You have full trap skills. You have 5th level Bard Spells and 3rd level infusions. You get a bonus to your caster level when using wands and scrolls and have a chance to not burn a charge. You have more wands even without UMD and the ability to heal WF more efficiently in addition to fleshies. You also get a bonus feat from Artificer and rune arme damage to your Glancing Blows. Finally, Power Attack qualifies you for both of your PrEs and Warchanter II and Battle Engineer each give you 10 hp.

Is it a top tier DPS build? No. But it should be average in battle why providing significant buffs for others and be able to do 99% of the traps in the game and be able to help out with healing if needed.

I think there are some flaws in the OP's build, but I think the overall concept is sound.

[Bobthesponge]

Disclaimer: I have no experience with Atificers, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

That being said, your dominant class is Bard (14 levels) but your dominant stat is INT for the artificer. I don't see the reason for that. I would drop INT and raise CHA if you plan that build. Or if you want the high INT (and 18 seems a bit much) then you should swap the levels to 14 Art/6 Brd.

You need to ask yourself what do the 6 levels of art get you vs. what do 6 levels of bard get you.

[PestWulf]

The bard spells are only for buffing I take it? You don't plan on doing any charms or mesmerizes right?

The biggest issue here is that you are powering INT for damage, but all your Bard spells hinge off of CHA for their DC.

If your goal is a buff bot with some ranged damage to be a moderate contribution to a party's dps, I don't see a problem with it. If you are wanting more out of your Bard side than that, I don't think it will work well.

If you want to buff and maintain some CC spells and damage, you'd be better off picking a class like the Wizard that shares INT as stat....but if you are going to do that, really a lvl 20 artificer with capstone has a ton of buffing potential with little mana cost due to their mastery of clickies.

[Nagashizzar]

The idea is buffs and melee combat, with trap/seach sklls.

I was looking to combine the following:
Greater Herosim, Haste, Insightful Damage, Elemental Weapon, Displacement, Blur, Blind and other buffs.

Along with songs, and the glancing blows from the dwarf axe with the runearm damage on top.

The artificer battle engineer is key for the dwarf axe crits (+2 to confirm, +2 crit dam) as well as the standard +2 on to the weapon and 10hp is a good bonus. I also get access to 15% damage boosts through the artificr line. I thought that this was the only way I'd be able to up my dps, combined with the added damage from the runearm on every swing/glancing blow

I'd also have some party suppot with back up heals, cure critical/serious, moderate wounds, mass light heal.

I agree that starting as bard would give you 8 more skill points, and also agree somewhat in the stat changes. I was looking at min dex and changing char to starting at 10, which with a +6 should be sufficient to cast my level 5 spells.

The reason I pumped int so high was insightful relexes and insighful damage. I thought that with the bonues from haste and warchanter 1/improved inspire courage I would be able to hit ok with my strength as it was and the extra damage from the addedint would add up, if this is wrong then please say,hence why stats went into this.

As I am only using charisma for buffs and no offensive spells , is there much point in using level up/enhancements in this??

Any other suggestions welcome, and thanks guys for taking the time to respond

[Nagashizzar]

Would it perhaps be better to rely on power attack and then use insightful strikes to make sure I hit, and perhaps be able to run this all the time, rather than insightful damage,and thus use a slightly lower Int score?

[unbongwah]

I am not aware of all the changes and have been trying to catchup, but as I understand I should get glancing hit using a dwarf axe runearm combo, which also have a chance to proc mainhand enchants etc and therefore i would assume runearm procs as well
If it works like S&B, then I would not expect runearm procs in melee, if I understand what you're saying. But I don't have an arty yet, so I don't know for sure.

Insightful Damage, Elemental Weapon
I may be mistaken, but aren't you only allowed one weapon buff effect at a time? So you could have ID or EW, but not both at the same time. If that's so, I think you'd be better off going STR-based and using EW; that would let you drop INT to bump up your other stats.

[Grailhawk]

Would it perhaps be better to rely on power attack and then use insightful strikes to make sure I hit, and perhaps be able to run this all the time, rather than insightful damage,and thus use a slightly lower Int score?

Like a lot of others I haven't played a arti yet but ...

INT is not your primary score for the build you're proposing STR is. STR will raise your to-hit and damage in every situation. The way you need to think of INT is as a secondary stat (its the gravy, but you need to make sure the main course is ready first). So basically what you have built is a average at best (no better then a pure arti or bard) melee dps with a lot of good buffs nothing wrong there.

Personally I think a pure bard or arti would be a better choice. But this wouldn't be worse than a pure (at least not until they add more tiers of the PRE's that might change things); the pure would just be easier and more forgiving of errors.

[Nagashizzar]

You can run EW + Insight damage together, or EW + Insightful strike.

As far as I know runearms do proc in melee.

Whilst I understand what your saying about strength to hit. If I am using Insightful strike it adds my int modifier to my strength instead. I am wondering how this coincides with power attack (which takes your to hit and adds it to your damage) ie which order stuff is applied. Higher int also gives me more sp and better reflex saves due to insightful reflexs.

[cru121]

Dwarfaxer bardificer 14/6 War Engineer: Toughness, WF Slash, PA, IC Slash, THFx3 + Arti metamagic feat (extend)
18 Str, 18 Con, 12 int, 8 cha (32pb)

You're basically similar to any splashed warchanter builds:
* 7/8 song, extended haste, GH, all the goodies

arti gets you:
* traps
* +2 CL to scrolls (heal scrolls CL 13 @ +75% mastery)
* battle engineer perks (+2 attack/damage, 10 hp etc)
* some basic pewpewpew without any investment
* runearm
* artificer lvl 3 infusions

you lose (compared to other WC splashes):
* evasion
* feats (but you have enough)
* fighter haste I
* 6th lvl bard spells
* two-handed STR bonus damage

this build is great because:
* great strength
* great HP (starting con + dwarf con+toughness+ WC2 + battle engineer)
* the novelty of it

start with art6 because you're dumping cha
don't bother with dex or int. you don't have evasion anyway.
you do need SOME int for skill points for traps.

[Nagashizzar]

ok so I have started this build, currently level 5.

I changed the starting stats to:

St 16
Con 14
Int 16
Cha 12

rest min.

Is it actually worth putting points into dwarf con?? I am unsure what to put the attribute level ups in, initially I was leaning towards Int for extra sp, insightful reflexs and insightful damage, however I don't know if it will just be better into strength??

So far its playing ok, I have 4 levels of bard and 1 artificer. I think it will improve greatly once I hit 6 and have 2 in art so I can use runearms (and actually get a runearm). Currently I am using a dwarf axe and shield, though I am not really noticing any glancing hits :(

In terms of buffs and sp, hp and survivability its good. I have just under 400sp, and can buff parties np. My biggest problem is people running off out of bard song range when trying to buff them!

[Astraghal]

Dwarves can make good bards, but I'd go with the Two-Handed Fighting feat line and use a greateaxe. Dwarves get special attack and damage enhancements for using axes, so you get a bit of a melee bonus from the Dwarf race, on top of the HP bonus.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Please spot any glaring mistakes

It's not pure Artificer ...

Simply, I don't think that the huge investment in intelligence is worth it if you aren't utilising all that the Artificer class from intelligence.

Really isn't any reason not to just be strength based on such a level split.

Really though, pure dwarf artificer is a pretty excellent build, why mix it with warchanter?

[PestWulf]

ok so I have started this build, currently level 5.

I changed the starting stats to:

St 16
Con 14
Int 16
Cha 12

rest min.

Is it actually worth putting points into dwarf con?? I am unsure what to put the attribute level ups in, initially I was leaning towards Int for extra sp, insightful reflexs and insightful damage, however I don't know if it will just be better into strength??

So far its playing ok, I have 4 levels of bard and 1 artificer. I think it will improve greatly once I hit 6 and have 2 in art so I can use runearms (and actually get a runearm). Currently I am using a dwarf axe and shield, though I am not really noticing any glancing hits :(

In terms of buffs and sp, hp and survivability its good. I have just under 400sp, and can buff parties np. My biggest problem is people running off out of bard song range when trying to buff them!

You will only see glancing blow damage if you are proficient in the Dwarven war axe. Being a dwarf gives you proficiency if you are also proficient with all martial weapons. In the hands of a non-proficient character, you won't see glancing blow damage. So my guess is that if you are not seeing glancing blow damage, then Bard is not qualifying you for it due to lack of being proficient in all martial weapons.

As for stats...INT isn't really going to buy you anything on your weapons. If you are using a dwarven axe, then either your to-hit or your to-damage is goign to be based off STR even if you use one of the Insightfuls.

Also, STR is the easiest stat to gain boosts in. Having a good INT to use with one of the insightful infusions is going to be better on a crossbow which has no damage stat.

If you are looking to mainly buff/heal and contribute more through melee dps than spellpower dps, then I think you want to be a STR based build.